Committee Hearing, November 8, 2001

You are operating in three schools within the Baltimore School District?

Yes.

So in terms of school districts, there are actually two, if I'm correct, 181 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 Chester and Inkster, Michigan, is that correct.

Chris Surf.

First of all, I apologize for coming in a minute late. If I might I'd like to offer one clarification to that question. With the 75,000 students that is we currently serve across the country, that number of students we think should be thought of as a national School District --

I do understand that.

In a sense, for example, that number is greater than a Atlanta, greater than Denver, Greater than D.C.

Sir, honestly, I do understand that, but that's not my question. In terms of coming in and operating school districts, currently established school districts, you would describe that situation where, Chester --

No, actually, we wouldn't in Chester. We were actually, I think, asked this question earlier, do we operate any school districts under the arrangements similar to what has been proposed to the Governor. The answer is no. 24

So Currently there are no 25 school districts that you're operating? 182 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642

Other than our own.

Other than YOUR 136 schools in states. 5

Right. 6 MS GLENN: You also refer to a list of, 7 I think, 65 contracts of which 62 I think you said 8 had been renewed? 9

62 are still in existence. 10

Can you then reconcile some 11 things that I had been reading about a number of 12 other schools and/or school districts where either 13 the contract had been terminated or was being 14 considered to be terminated. And I just want to 15 make sure that this is accurate reporting. I've 16 read this in several places. Wichita, Kansas, I 17 understand you have four schools, two of them there 18 is some concern about Edison 's operation and some 19 consideration of ending your participation at least 20 in those two schools. Is that accurate assessment? 21

If you were to review all 22 of our 136 schools, and we said this earlier, we said 84 percent of schools are up, that means 16 percent aren't. And What I'm saying is in some of those cases, you're going to hear people that are 183 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 concerned about that and should be concerned about that.

I just want to make sure that I have an accurate list of the school districts where that issue has been raised.

You asked a very specific question about Wichita, and let me answer that. We have four schools in Wichita. There have been some newspaper level concerns about our performance in one or two, depending how you count. We have not been formally notified or advised by the district of superintendent of his or the board's intention to terminate that relationship. But there is some stuff in the newspapers.

Is that a similar situation then in places like Lansing, Michigan; San Antonio; Minneapolis, Minnesota? Goldsboro, North Carolina, was actually terminated, is that correct?

In Michigan we completed our five-year contract and we were not renewed.

It was not renewed, okay. And San Antonio?

And that was an individual charter school. 184 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642

And that is part of the three that we mentioned, As is Goldsboro, North Carolina, which you just mentioned.

And the situation in Minneapolis.

Minneapolis is ongoing.

Minneapolis is currently operating. The school contracted -- they have a huge budget problem and they have given notice that --

The school system has a huge budget problem.

They have given notice that it is their intention to not continue with that school. We have a unique relationship there where partnered with a community group called partnership for pride and living. They have indicated their intent to continue with the school on a charter basis, and we believe that is the future of that school. So the school will continue, but the relationship with the district likely will not.

Let me ask this. I know in the interest of time, there are several other school districts where this issue has been raised. If you 185 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 could respond to us in writing the status from your perspective of that situation. And they are the Southwest Independent School District in Texas. You mentioned Goldsboro. Pontiac, Michigan. Sherman, Texas you did mention. York, Pennsylvania; Inkster, Michigan; and Macon, Georgia.

We would be delighted to submit a written response to that.

The other question I'd like to raise this evening, if I may -- I've waited a long time, Councilwoman. I have time for one additional question, I am told. Let me go right then to the issue that you raised around staffing and the number of teachers. I believe in your report you recommend that we could withstand a reduction in the number of teachers within our School District and still improve instruction in student performance. My question is, how do you propose reducing the number of teachers without increasing class size, and does the Edison school have a perspective on the relationship between class size and student achievement?

Let me take the first part of the question about the reduction in staffing. 186 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 What We found in the District was hundreds of teachers who are on special assignments outside the buildings not teaching -- so when we talk about teaching, we're talking about people classified as teaching. Over half of the people in the District classified as teachers aren't actually teaching a class. Now, let me carve out for a minute out of that, some of them for good reasons that you're actually not in a typical class. We've been talking about -- we found anecdotally and through trying to back through your numbers, we -- actually, two things. One is we couldn't get a direct couldn't from the District on how many, quote unquote, teachers there are. We heard that there were 31 class size when we started. But if you take 30 to 1 and you multiply -- REPRESENTATIVE WASHINGTON: You have to talk into the mike.

I'm sorry. And you multiply it times the number of teachers, it would add to something like 300 and some-odd thousand kids. There's 12,000 teachers in the District, even saving for your special education. So what we have suggested is that certain positions be moved to the 187 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 -- that teachers be moved from the building on a school design model using one of the curricula that we propose, one of the three curriculums. So we're actually thinking that you can, without affecting the quality of instruction, get more teachers into your classroom through -- and the reduction, of course, will be through attrition, not through layoffs.

Does that mean by -- by extension does that mean that there are services that these teachers, non-classroom teachers, are performing that would not be performed under your proposal?

We were advised by principals of a level of frustration because what's happening is they're not -- they're supposed to be providing support that they're not getting. So what we heard in the 20-some-odd schools that we visited was that we need to get these services actually in the building and built into the design. That's what we were hearing.

So assessment was made on the 20 schools where you had actually on site interviews and the recommendation for 264 schools. 188 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642

We actually compared Philly do other districts. We used data -- I think there's been some discrepancies about how many teachers you have versus other districts. In order to compare Philadelphia to other districts around the country and do a benchmark, we had to go find information around, you know, looking at the systems that were similarly sized. And I think a lot of that is in the public report. And what we found is that there is a level of staffing that doesn't comport with the level of service that's being delivered.

If you look at the three programs that are being proposed, the staffing is based on the actual curriculum programs that will be implemented in your schools. If you read the report, we're recommending specific reading, math, science programs, a specific organization for the school; the staffing matches those programs.

So you're saying you're sending up your staffing to meet the curriculum that you would be implementing in the schools that you propose.

And the support for the curriculum for which we will be held accountable and 189 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 that parents will expect to see improvement in their children's scores rather than an abstract notion of how much people should be there and what services they should provide.

The last part of this is my understanding your analysis you included in your estimate of the ratio of student to teachers in our comparison, you included teachers who have teaching in our preschool or head start, but you did not include those students in your estimates, in your figuring. So how does that --

I'm not sure if that's true. If anything, what we did is we tried to take out teachers that were in programs that we thought would be kept in place like your preschool program and your reading specialist is what they're called. In order to do a comparison, we actually had to take out reading specialist because there's no analog in other districts. And so we said, okay, you pull out reading specialist and other things that we could identify. One of the challenges with the analysis is that the District couldn't identify for us, when we asked a very specific question early in the process, we said, tell us how many people you 190 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 have and where they are. And the answer we got back was, well, in our general budget, we use this number but these people are actually paid for out of categorical. So my folks came back and said, well, quarter of a million dollars being spent in categorical, and we don't have an answer for what it is -- a quarter of a billion, excuse me. And so we had to go in and really verse engineer what we thought was happening both through anecdotes and in through coming back around and analyzing other data. But we don't have the exact number. So based on our estimates right now, we think the district is oversized, and we think a lot is happening through what's called categorical where you're not actually keeping score on who is it doing what. That's how we arrived -- that's part of the thinking in arriving at this these numbers.

Well maybe, Mr. Doyle, it would be helpful if you could provide the backup for how you determinate your calculations to the School District and they could provide you with additional information may you need. Because there is a discrepancy in what we believe the ratio is currently in our School District and you stated it 191 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 to be in your report and, therefore, the decisions that you're made r recommendations that you made based on that may be a little faulty. So We may need to reconcile the figures, if you will. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Glenn. Board Member Rush.

Dorothy Sumners-Rush, Vice President of the School Board. Edison's model has a longer school day, longer school year, high price technology. And based on the limited information we have received so far, it looks like your cost is 10 percent higher than what we spent. Can you offer this same model you are taking everybody to see in your other locations to us?

The answer is in the 200 schools that are not what we call partnership schools, there is not a plan that that model is going to be used there. And the reason, though, is we said earlier today and we said in our recommendation that we did not think that converting every school in the district to the Edison model 192 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 makes sense or was economically viable because we don't think it is. One point I would like to clarify is nationwide we operate on considerably less dollars per pupil than the City of Philadelphia, considerably less dollars approaching $2,000 dollars less per pupil. So Our average per pupil in Edison schools is around $7,000.

This is the model that we have been led to belief from your reports that use in other places. So if not this, than what?

In every city that we are in, we have a core model and we adopt that model to the economics of the city that we're in. Example, in Las Vegas, Las Vegas spends actually in the zone of half of what you spend, and obviously, we don't do the exact model in Las Vegas that we do in Boston which spends twice as much as Las Vegas does. So In every city that we're in, we adapt according to the economics of the city. We also have to adapt according to the collective bargaining agreements of the City. And in some case, teachers unions will say, we're prepared to waive this. In other cases they will say, we're not. And We have to make 193 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 adaptations according to those situations.

I would suggest then that we need a more finite information about this and the model . I have a another question and I'll be finished. Have you ever addressed capital improvements in your plan that you have given to us? And if not, why not? Because I have a reason for asking that.

We actually are put together the plan. I think we said this. We've agreed on this with the Governor's team and may have even mentioned it to the -- certainly to some of the folks we talked to on the my Mayor's team that we were focused primarily on operational issues, in large part because of the time constraints of 60 days. We had to assemble a team. We did review, though, the plans. There have been a lot of work done in recent years on the capital situation. There's a Perks report, there are ther reports that were done. So rather than us in 60 days trying to re-do a capital plan and study the facilities, we actually reviewed the reports that is were there. And Because we didn't do our own work on that, we 194 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 did a review of that and a review of the way it was managed, we decided not to include it in the report.

The reason I'm asking that is because in the general public, and it has been reproduced in several newspapers that you're going to paint up, fix up, fix all of our buildings and make them like new. I know that with the average age of it buildings and with the improvements that have been made and those that still need to be made, that's a very major issue. Because of the age of our buildings, when you go in sometimes to do cosmetic things, you find our you have some major problems behind the outer surface you see. So that is why I've asked that question about building improvements and what you plan to do about it. Thank you.

Thank you. We have a couple visitors in the room, people in the Chambers. We have City Controller, Jonathan Saidel. And we also have our Second District Congressman Chaka Fattah who is to my right. (Applause.)

There's a point of order. Christine James Brown. 195 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642

I know that you want us to save our questions for tomorrow --

Actually, what I want to do is, I'm really making an attempt to get the community groups up. And they've been here all day and it's -- I do know that many of us are going to return on Saturday and some people at this table have decided to reserve and hold their questions until Saturday. I'm just trying to make an effort to get the community groups here.

We should afford, though, our guests the opportunity if they wanted to make remarks. We have a congressman here-

Well, we've been doing that all day, and I don't have a problem with that. I was going get to that point. But I just want people to know why I may seem to be rushing you. I just want to get some community groups on. So Our Congressman, I understand, does have a question or a comment and I don't know whether -- Mr. Controller, do you? No? Okay, thank you. And anybody's welcome to come back Saturday at 10:00. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Let me thank the Chairwoman. I just got in from Washington. If I 196 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 could just ask Mr. Whittle a couple of questions, it would be helpful so that I could maybe understand this. I saw in the Governor's report where he said THAT Philadelphia has the worst urban school district in the country. Do you agree with that?

First, I'm not sure the report says that. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Well, where do you rank Philadelphia among the largest urban 12 districts in the country? 13

Our job is not to point 14 fingers. And It really isn't. And we said that 15 when -- 16 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: I'm not asking you 17 to point any fingers, sir. 18

Well, I don't want to 19 point fingers. 20 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Where do you rank -- this is the district you want to run. Where do you rank it now among the New Yorks, the Chicagos, the LAs and in the country?

John is the expert.

Chris is not avoiding the 197 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 question in any sense. To be accurate, these major urban school districts don't take the same tests. You can't strictly compare them. I would say that we work in a lot of large cities, and in those large cities, the needs of many, many kids are great. Ad That's true of Philadelphia and it's true of other cities -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Can you offer to me a ranking among the top districts where Philadelphia ranks?

I cannot. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: You cannot. Can anybody at the table to do that?

Sir, the reason is it's not -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Mr. Whittle?

There's different 19 testing systems. And The toss in Dallas and Houston 20 is not -- the Pennsylvania State Assessment system 21 is not the -- 22 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: So if anyone said that Philadelphia was the worst of the large urban districts, you would not concur with that based on everything you know? And you know a lot about 198 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 education.

I would have to see what they said and why they said it and how they said it. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Well, I'm telling you that the Governor said in his statement, this was the worst urban district in the country. And I'm trying to understand whether or not that's true. Because based on what I understand, and I have some limited information about the subject, that's not true. Is there anyone at the table prepared to defend the Governor's accusation that this is the worst district?

I would like to see the quote and in what context it was made and then we'd be perfectly happy to respond. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: And no one can offer a ranking where Philadelphia stands among the large urban districts.

If I may, just a point of clarification, when you say "the worst," what is the measure of -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: I'm using the Governor's terminology.

Is it test scores? Is it -- 199 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Let me try this, Mr. Whittle. If if I said to you, among the large urban districts, the top districts in the 5 country, that Philadelphia has made more progress at 6 a faster rate than any of those other districts, 7 would you agree or not agree with that? 8

No. 9 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: And why would you 10 disagree with that statement? 11

Because we run the 45th 12 largest school system in the United States-- 13 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: I said of the top 14 25 districts. 15

I'm saying that actually 16 and on that point, too, we would not agree with 17 that. 18 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: And would not 19 agree? 20

Because we know systems 21 that have faster rates of gain. 22 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Which systems are 23 they? 24

Sacramenta, San Antonio. 25 I believe San Francisco. There are many. 200 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 Baltimore. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Those are the districts s you would stand by as being better?

Faster rates of gain information.

They're making faster progress. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: On what basis would you use?

Whatever they have. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: San Francisco, Mr. Whittle, you run a school there?

Yes. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: The LA times last Sunday ran a story that said that of all of the schools there, it was the worst and its scored had plummeted another 65 points down to 47 on a scale up to 1,000. Is that accurate or is that just misinformation?

That's complete propaganda. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: In Michigan where you have been --

Can I mention why it's 201 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 propaganda? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Sure.

The State of California, if you go to the State Board of Education and look at the action that they took to save that school from an abusive school board, will demonstrate that is propaganda. And if you go to the Nightly News, Peter Jennings, this is exactly -- please, sir. Let me say what was said on the national news. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Supply it for the record. I'm just telling you what the LA Times said.

But let me tell you what ABC News said. You asked us the question. I want to answer it. Let me tell you what ABC News said. Peter Jennings stood up on national television. He started his report on the school in San Francisco exactly this way, he said, "Now, let me tell you about am rare great public school that politicians are trying to close." And That was on national television. I'll get you the quote. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: In Macon Telegraph on Monday ran a story, it was on the AP wire. It says you run two schools in the school district, two 202 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 elementary schools and that you've had a fourth of the student have left and that you've had a very high rate turnover. Out of 56 combined teaching positions, there's an extraordinary rate, more than twice, in the average district school there. And that the school board in the majority was prepared to find a way to have Edison move onto some other district. Is that accurate?

If I might, I'd like to respond to that. I'm not familiar with the particular article. But One thing I will tell you Edison is we stand up and we're accountability for our successes and our failures. And I will tell you that Our schools in Macon have not been -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Is anybody familiar with the article that I'm talking about?

Yes. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Is the article true or not?

Is it true that 176 schools in Philadelphia are failing according to the -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Mr. Whittle, that's evasive and it's not responsive to my question. 203 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642

There are two schools in Macon, Georgia. One of them is struggling, one is not. They represent two schools out of 136. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: They're the only two schools there that you're running, right?

They represent two schools ut of 136. If you want to judge us, judge us by our tract record across the system, which we will stand by. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Your Edison spokesperson there said that it was true that the schools were struggling and that the problem was you were not able to build a team mentality, a culture, and develope the leadership, which are the two things that you promised to deliver, as I read your report, in terms of taking over the central administration here. How can we reconcile those two things, that if you could not bring a team leadership spirit to two elementary schools in Georgia, how are you going do that in a 260 --

I can reconcile it just fine because any scientific analysis looks at a set of data in the aggregate. And If you look at our 204 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 schools in the aggregate, I would, with all due respect, challenge anybody to find a school system bigger than the city of the District of Columbia, of Atlanta or Boston that's showing the kind of record in team building, in academic achievement, in support from teachers by any measure. When you say the worst, sir, there are 50 ways to measure better or worse. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: How was it that you lost the contract in North Carolina?

Because the district reorganized its schools and decided that they didn't want one with the great structure that we had. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: And why is it that the Houston Board wants to find a way that you might --

We don't have any schools in Houston. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Excuse me. It's Dallas then.

The Dallas Board just had a report on our schools, and we urge you to read it. It was just announced in the Dallas press about two weeks ago. Six of our seven school are doing a good 205 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 job. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: So you don't any problems in Texas?

Sir, every school system in America has issues, and we're no different. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: We're trying to get to yours.

Sir, if you would like to get to ours, if I may respectfully suggest, I have been in 30 of our schools in the last three and a half weeks. I was in our seven schools in Dallas, and I've never been prouder of anything in my life than what I saw in those seven schools. And I would encourage, sir, as you form your judgment about us -- excuse me, sir. Our good faith and our ability to deliver great school for disadvantage. I would encouraging you to join me in a trip to our seven Dallas schools. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: In your report, the only districts that you compare Philadelphia to that I find in the report where you make a comment that suggests that they are doing better than Philadelphia, is Las Vegas, Brower County, and one other district I can't -- Las Vegas, Brower County 206 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 and there's one other. Houston. Can I explain that? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: No, I just want to ask my question first. In those School Districts, are you aware of the poverty rate among the students, the students eligible for free and reduced lunches? Can you tell me what they are. What is the pre reduced lunch rate and the percentage in Brower County?

It's in the report. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: But what is it? I would argue that they're not comparable.

What are they then? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: You got paid $2.7 million --

Sir, you said that they're not comparable. So what are the data? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: We're going to say what you say they are first. No need to be combative. We're going to get to the facts . I read the report. You mentioned three districts you said are better than Philadelphia. I want to know what the poverty rate is in those districts as compared to Philadelphia. 207 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642

We will get you the data. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: If I told you, Mr. Whittle, that the combined rate of students eligible for free and reduced lunches in all three of those districts was not equal to the rate in Philadelphia, would that be an accurate statement?

I don't know. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Is there a correlation in this country between economic circumstance and educational outcome in the data?

No. And let me tell you something we do know a tremendous about. We know what our rate of gain where we have 70 percent Title 1 and 80 percent children of color which is almost identical to the City of Philadelphia. Do you know what our rate of gain is versus the City of Philadelphia? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: We're going to get to that in a minute. Mr. Whittle, I have one more question I want to ask you while I have your attention. Philadelphia filed a lawsuit against the Commonwealth. It's not dissimilar to a whole range of lawsuits that have been filed across the country by urban and rural districts alleging that the per 208 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 pupil expenditure rate created a circumstance in which the children here would not be able to be properly educated. New York City had a similar lawsuit. A judge there ruled very recently. There have been rulings in new Hampshire, Vermont, Kentucky, Ohio. I can go all around the country. Are You a familiar with this debate that's going on about property tax base school finance systems?

Yes. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: And whether or not they cause a circumstance in which urban and rural kids get short-changed in their education?

Yes. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Would you offer a comment about whether you think that's correct, whether property tax base finance systems work to the disadvantage of urban cities?

The answer is we're not policymakers. What we do is -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: You're not what?

We are managers of schools. And what we do is we do our best to run great public schools ON whatever you, the policymakers, give to us. We don't set policy. We 209 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 don't pass taxes. You say, this is what we have -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Well, let me ask you this question. You're a very intelligent businessman. You run a lot of schools around the country and you told us that. If those schools were receiving a per pupil expenditure equivalent to the suburban counterparts, would your company now be profitability?

I don't know. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: You don't know how to answer that? Do you know what is spent in the average suburban classroom to Philadelphia in the 45 surrounding suburban districts ?

I've heard it's considerably more than is spent here. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: 70,000 per classroom. Now, Philadelphia children have to compete for jobs after they graduate and they have to compete for college admissions. Is there a circumstance in which they're being out-spent 70,000 per classroom, that they would ever be in a circumstance in which, whether Edison ran these schools or whether Philadelphia continues to run 210 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 them, that they would ever be in a circumstance after years of such a disparity in investment in 4 which they would be fairly competitive? 5

The answer is yes. It is 6 certainly -- don't get us wrong. It is certainly 7 desirable to have more money rather than less. 8 There's no question about that. But you asked is it 9 possible for students with less money to do 10 extremely well. And the answer to that is yes. And 11 We have seen it community after community. The 12 disadvantaged communities with the funding that they have can do well. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: You've missed my point, but let me try this. I know you're in business and have you to hire people. You've hired all these people who are with you now. You have to hire people in a prevailing labor market, right? Is there a circumstance in which Philadelphia could hire a qualified teacher for half as much as what is being paid in the suburbs in win time after time in attracting that teacher?

Sir, two of the critical parts of our recommendations were increased in compensation. 211 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: I read that.

That is our recommendation. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: But answer my question, though. Could there be a circumstance in which --

I'll answer your question. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: -- thousands of teachers are hired in which you constantly get the best when you're paying half as much as school districts minutes away? 13

I'd be pleased to actually 14 have an opportunity to answer your question. And 15 I'm going to answer this question as a citizen because, as Mr. Whittle said, we do not control the funds. We do not vote in the legislature. We do not appropriate funds. As a former history teacher and as a citizen, I believe that teachers are underpaid and should be paid more money that contributes to quality education. That is my private view. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Thank you. I want to go back to Mr. Whittle for a second. Philadelphia is in a circumstance in which it has to 212 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 hire teachers. Part of your report says you got a talent drain at the School District. Did you in your investigation try to determine where these people who left the school district, the talented administrators that you refer to, did you track where they went?

We know from our experience all over the United States that many different things happen to them. Many left teaching altogether. Many went to other careers. Many went to the suburbs where they were probably paid -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: You've finally gotten to the important part of what I was seeking.

Can I finish, please? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Sure.

We have to do -- our job is the art of the possible. We are given resources and we are told, "This is what you have; now, do the best you can with it." Your job is to determine how much we're given. I can't -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: I'm going to get to that in a minute. That's why I was asking you about the property tax base system. 213 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 Do you know the percentage of property in Philadelphia that the State does not allow the City to tax for property purposes.

No. 6 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: You don't know?

No. 8 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: No one?

It's not our job, sir. CONGRESS FATTAH: Well, in your report you go to great lengths to criticize the City for not keeping up its contribution through the property taxes for the schools. Isn't that in the report, Mr. Wayde? Don't you go through and say that compared to other districts and compared to state increases that the percentage of increase from Philadelphia has been less?

Yeah, we do. We just state the fact. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: So you make the criticism. Do you have any understanding about the percentage of property that is on the tax role, not by action of the City, but by action the State?

Sir, it wasn't a criticism. 214 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 We stated the fact. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Just a fact.

Just a fact. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: So If I told you that a third of the property in Philadelphia is not taxable, it's owned by non-profits, Universities, hospitals, zoos, churches and the like and, therefore, those dollars, those dollars are not even available to be tapped and that those rules are set by the Commonwealth, do you think that might have been important to mention in your report?

Sir, we were stating the facts around the revenue of the District. And Part of that recommendation was that more revenue come in.

And Our assignment was not to get into tax policy in the State of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia. We're not qualified to do that. We manage schools. And we were asked to go, given the situation you have here, what do you recommend, what options do you provide. That's what we provided. We may agree or disagree with you regarding the issues of taxes. That's not our 215 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 venue. Meaning, that's not what we. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Well, you're a very influential man in this country. And I just wonder since these debate have been raging since -- you can go back to Brown versus Board of Education about whether or not we should have and separate and unequal school system. That was on race. The Philadelphia lawsuit make as claim the Commonwealth funding system that to the degree you raised the percentage of African-Americans and Latinos in a School District that the rate of increases diminishes. The increase appropriation from the State diminishes. It's a very well laid out case. It resulted in the negotiations that led to the study that you have been paid for to comment about what we do about this situation. So I just was wondering whether or not you looked at it. In New York City, for instance, the Council of Great City Schools have shown that if you have are a kid living in New York City that $57,000 less is going to be spent on your education over kindergarten to 12th grade than if you live in the suburbs. That same study shows that if you were in Philadelphia, some $30,000 difference is going to be 216 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 spent. So that when the Governor comes in and says this is the worst district. And your report that you do for him doesn't shed any light on some of these broader issues that could have an impact, I just wonder whether you see that as deficiency in the work that you've done to date?

Can I respond to that? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Yes.

I think it wasn't a deficiency. Our job was to provide information that the policymakers could use to decide. If you want to really to the bottom line of our work, what we -- our proposal say there that need to be at a minimum, if you looked at the Governor plan, about a 9 percent increase in district funding. That's what we said coming out. That's public record. How that money gets dealt with, that's for the policymakers to decide. That's out of our purview. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Well, my colleague is here, Congressman Flake and I know he used play a little basketball when were in the hill together, and we got a great basketball team here in Philadelphia. When they play, the NBA sets the rules. They decide the height of the rim, the width 217 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 of the court and all of that, the salary cap. And Every team they play against has the same set of rules. The Governor, his report which written by you criticizes Philadelphia in comparison to districts in which the rim for those children are at the different height, that the resources provided are in a different set of circumstances. And then they use that to criticize the Philadelphia District, which I would argue to you that no one who had actually looked at this matter that meter could ever say that Philadelphia was the worst urban district in the country. That anyone who said it was not being intellectually honest. The truth of the matter is that the Commonwealth, has also been sued by 200 poor rural districts on the same allegation that their kids are never going to be in a position to compete with other kids in the Commonwealth if they're going to be out-spent by those kind of differentials in the classroom. And so my point is I would just hope at some point maybe on behalf of your own stockholders you might add your voice to the point that states should not have financing systems in which they say, well, you can only tax property. And then you 218 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 follow from that, that a large percentage of the property in any City -- and I can go through the numbers in New York -- are going to be off the roles. And then after crippling these districts, now you come in and say, well, we're going rescue you. And the way we're going to do that is, the schools that are in our City some of the best in the State, what you put in Tier 1, You don't want the School Board to run anymore: Central, Girls High, the High School for Performing Arts. Not that you're going to change anything, But you want make want to make a profit for what you say is just essentially leave them alone. (Applause.) CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: The schools in the middle, you're not doing much for them except paying them and provide some professional development and you promised them new textbooks -- but wait a minute.

But it's untrue what you're say, sir. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Well, this is how I read the report. But I'm a product of the Philadelphia Schools. Maybe I can't read. 219 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642

We're here to give you an opportunity to -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Let me just say this to you. It would be a contradiction to give you control of a School District in which you would decide where the resources went. Obviously, you would favor the schools that you would be actually managing to the detriment of all of these schools. And I think that to make such a proposal brings into question the very character of the company. Because if you can't possibly take control of the central administration and not favor and not hold to the same level of responsibility the schools that you have a specific profit motive in. So I think that you need to think about what you propose, think about whether or not you're prepared to come into this City absent the support of the Mayor, of any major elected officials, and run a school system and whether or not that is something you want to do, or whether you would prefer to see a circumstance in which whatever benefits you can provide, that they be provided under the guidance and accountability of the people who have been elected by the people of the City who pay the taxes here. 220 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 (Applause.)

Thank you, Congressman Fattah. Thank you, Edison. We want to bring up the community groups now. We want to bring up the next witnesses. Ted Kirsh, Lois Yampolsky, and is Dr. Jolley Christmas still here? Please come up to the table. State your name for the record.

Good evening. Ted Kirsh, President of the Philadelphia Federation of Teachers, and seated beside me is vice president of the Federation of Jerry Jordon. I guess I'm the first person speaking the afternoon from this side of the table that can state that they were born and raised in Philadelphia, went to the Philadelphia Public School System, children went to their neighborhood schools. And actually I can track my beginning with the Philadelphia Public School System to 1946. So I do have somewhat of a history and background. And I'm proud to say that I'm a public school graduate and a success like many people who are in this room today. My greetings to the Members of the School Board, Chairman Miller, Chairman Washington -- chairperson, 221 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 Members of if State House, City Council. For the next few minutes I would like to discuss the Governor's reform proposal for Philadelphia Public Schools and suggest an alternative approach which might work for those of us who care about public education and the 200,000 plus kids that depend on us. After reviewing the Governor's reform plan and report on the Edison Company on which his proposals are based, Philadelphia Federation of Teachers joins parents, community and civic leaders labor, clergy and other concerned taxpayers in opposing the State's plan to take over, carve up, and privatize Philadelphia School System. It is a flawed plan based on erroneous assumptions, Distorted statistics and self-serving analysis. Like other so-called reform proposals, it tinkers with governance and management, but barely addresses the core issue, the grossly inequitable funding that has sabotaged our schools' opportunities for success. It fragments a school system that is just starting to recover from a disastrous seven-year experiment with decentralization and 222 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 clusters, and throws enormous of sums of new money around the district, except where it's needed most, in the classrooms. Further, this proposal ignores the wishes of the people of Philadelphia who overwhelmingly oppose privatization as published in a recent poll. It give a Board a political appointee with no oversight or accountability sweeping powers, including the power to tax all of the residents of Philadelphia without their consent. And I say to you, this is taxation without representation. (Applause.)

While the PFT agrees with and has itself advocated some of the changes in the report such as a district-wide curriculum providing meaningful staff development, expanding support for new teachers, and increasing funding, we believe the proposal overall is an elaborate justification for subjecting our children to another experimental program with no proven record of improving the public schools or student achievement. Instead of changes like reducing class size that have been proven to help children succeed 223 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 academically, the Commonwealth has chosen privatization, the controversial concept that has failed time and again to significantly improve student achievement. In major studies examining student achievement in privately managed public schools, researchers have found that students perform no 9 better and sometimes worse on standardized test than comparable students at traditional public schools. Evaluators Dade County, Florida; Minneapolis, Colorado, and Massachusetts, for example, found that students perform the same, and I'm quoting, "the same or worse" than comparable students in regular district schools. In Miami-Dade, for example, a fourth-year evaluation of private management of schools by Edison Schools concluded that students in those schools, and I'm quoting, "Never once exhibited an academic advantage over the students in their regular program. " Additionally, the track record of state takeovers is less than encouraging. In more than 224 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 ten years under state control, schools in three New Jersey cities have seen significant improvement in management practice and cost control. But students test scores have remained near the bottom in state ranging in spite of major efforts to turn those schools around. According to the New York Times, again quoting, "There has been no striking turnaround in student performance ... " These are hardly bringing endorsement for the Commonwealth's plans for our schools. Furthermore, the state takeover as proposed tramples the rights of Philadelphians who voted last year to change the City charter, to make the Mayor more responsible and more accountable to Philadelphia taxpayers for improving public schools. The plan replaces the School Board. And the Administration with the School Reform Commission appointed by a lame duck Governor to serve terms that extend far into the next Governor's term. This commission, neither elected nor accountable to anyone, would be granting seeping authority to hire and fire employees, outsource the jobs of thousands 225 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 of Philadelphia residents, and decide the fate of 210,000 children and 26,000 school employees and their families with a vote of just two of the five commissioners. Three people make a quorum, two votes are a majority. This commission could, without any public input whatsoever, award a seven-year 225-million-dollar contract to a private company to manage the District, as well as 45 individual schools. Two likely beneficiary of this unprecedented arrangement is the Edison Schools Incorporated. Under Act 46, this control board would have the authority to increase City taxes without the consent of the people. In the birth place of democracy, democracy's most basic right is being crushed. More than 225 years ago, colonists dumped shiploads of tea into Boston Harbor to protest taxation without representation. What will be our response to the loss of our rights to a representative government? In New York City when a private company tried to take over the public schools, New Yorkers were given a voice in the process. Elections were 226 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 held where parents voted whether they wanted their neighborhood schools privatized. When the ballots were counted, 80 percent of New York's parents rejected privatization.

Because the new state control Board will have power, not only over our schools, but also over our taxes, We demands that Philadelphia residents be given the same opportunity as New York parents to vote privatization up or down. Yesterday afternoon, the Coalition to Keep Public Schools Public announced that it is seeking an amendment to Act 46 that there would be no takeover without a vote of approval by those who would be taxed. The coalition has legislators to sponsor this amendment which we hope will be introduced in the general assembly when it convenes next week. Today the PFT is calling on City Councilmembers to once again step forward and insist that Philadelphians be given the opportunity to vote on who will manage their schools. We have you ask you to back an amendment to act 46 that would will restore democracy in the birth place of democracy and offer one last chance to keep our public schools 227 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 in public hands. The Governor's plan also establishes a system that fragments Philadelphia Schools, dividing them into categories of good, mediocre, and failing. It then assigns very leaves of assistance and oversight. The good schools would be left alone. Sixty low-performing schools would be handed over to so-called community partnerships which would have unspecified and potentially unchecked powers over the schools. The majority of the schools in the middle, with an addition no getting a new coat of paint, would receive vague promises of the assistance. We are told that the plan calls for implementation of a district-wide curriculum, something that PFT has demanded and won during its last contract negotiation and is in the process of being implemented. However, the curriculum the governmenter's plan proposes would not be required for the top 30 good schools nor the bottom 60 schools where community partners would be permitted to institute their own reforms. This is not, in our view, a district-wide curriculum. And in a City 228 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 where 30 percent of our children change schools at least once during the school year, this decentralization and balkanization continues to deny equal opportunity to children throughout the city. If one good thing has come from the review of the district, it is their acknowlegment that our schools are woefully underfunded. Surprisingly, few people seem to have noticed or commented on the enormous infusion of new money and the destructive cost-cutting measures required under this plan. If we have this kind of financial support over the last ten years, I doubt the district would be in the position it's in today. )

The State proposes to inject more than 600 million into a 1.7 billion district budget in the first year alone. The biggest chunk of that money comes from $300 million bond issue to wipe out the deficit and 160 million in new City,, State, and federal tax money. But the state also proposes to save more than 225 million annually through cost cutting that includes reducing the number of teachers through attrition and the wholesale out-sourcing of transportation, food 229 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 service, and custodial services. This will result in the loss of jobs, livelihoods and medical coverage for thousands of Philadelphia families. This ill-advised and callous plan, particularly in the wake of September 11th and deepening economic recession would hit minorities and woman who are the single held of households the hardest. It would have a ripple effect on local businesses, and in the long run would diminish the effectiveness of the teams of professionals and support staff that teach, nurture, feed and keep safe the children of our City. Misusing national statistics, the report implies that Philadel0phia has too many teachers. Then the proposal argues that through attrition the District could reduce, and their term is right-sizing, the number of teachers by up to 10 percent per year. This proposal is outrageous in a City where we fight every year to hold the maximum class size to between 30 and 33 children and where you would be hard pressed to find a kindergarten or first grade with fewer than 34 children. Reducing class size is the most effective education reform available today. In 230 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 studies dating back years, reducing class sizing kindergarten through third grade results in life-long achievement gains, particularly for disadvantaged minority students. By the eighth grade. Children in classes of to students in grades K to 3 test 8 one grade level ahead of their peers who are in 9 regular classes in both reading and mat. They are 10 less likely to drop out, More likely to complete 11 high school on time, and more likely to take advance 12 placement courses in college entrance exams. 13 Yet reducing class size is not mentioned 14 anywhere in either the Edison report or the 15 Governor's proposal, While reducing the complement 16 of teachers is the first personnel cost reduction. The report goes on to recommend that the district outsource transportation services, eliminating 3,000 jobs with benefits that support Philadelphia families and another 5,000 custodial and maintenance positions. Food service and other jobs may also be on the line as well. You've heard the expression, "It takes a village to raise a child." I'd like you to know that it also take as team to educate one. The team 231 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 consists of able administrators, talented teachers, security employees who keep our kids safe, and food service employees who create nutritious meals. It includes bus drivers and ours have to have background checks, whose job it is to deliver our children home safely each night. The team includes maintenance workers who work from dawn to dusk to make certain that our aging and decrepit schools have heat and facilities are clean. All these people are neighbors, people who live in Philadelphia, pay taxes here and they shop here. Do we really want to fire them so that we can afford hundreds of million dollars for outside contracts in the next seven years? (Applause.)

There is no public support for this plan. No reformed proposal will be successful without the support of the employees, parents, students and the community. So far, at least 50 parent community civic and labor organization have voiced their opposition to the plan. There are at least three different owe coalitions opposing the state takeover and privatization of our schools. And an 232 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 independent poll of Philadelphia residents by a national firm showed that 76 percent of Philadelphians oppose privatization. The only support for the takeover and privatization comes from those who stand to profit. (Applause.)

Governor Schweiker is right when he says that the parents want changes in the public school system. In fact, this poll found that more than two-thirds of them want changes in our public school system, but not the changes that have been proposed. What parents want, what we want, too, are effective schools in which children succeed and become creative productive citizens. We want early childhood education programs that prepare children to learn. We want smaller classes which have been proven to raise test scores. We want to close the achievement gap between white and minority students and prepare more minority students for college. We want uniform and consistent disciplinary standards that make every school safe and orderly. We want alternative programs for students who cannot confirm. We want a curriculum and proven programs in reading and math 233 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 with a track record of success. Parents what qualified, supported teachers supplied with modern books, materials and technology in the classroom. They want well-stocked modern libraries with trained librarians. They want music, art and sports programs. They want school nurses, psychologists, and other resources to meet children's special needs. In short, we all want to have the same high-quality programs and resources suburban students have in their schools. These reforms, the reforms that is work, are largely ignored in State's plan, and that is the plan's biggest failure. We have a unique opportunity right now to make the kinds of changes in our public school system that will help the majority of our children succeed in school and succeed throughout their lives. We can choose reform that that are proven to work or we can experiment. Time is running out. November 30th is rapped by approaching. We urge the Governor and the Mayor to 234 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 reach an agreement to bring us back from the precipice of privatization and develop a proposal with broad community and legislative support. We urge our elected officials to amend Act 46 immediately to give every Philadelphian the right to vote on the issue of privatization. Our children can't wait. We must bring all the stakeholders to the table now and build a broadly supported research-based plan that will give our children the educational opportunities they need and deserve. Thank you. (Applause.) REPRESENTATIVE WASHINGTON: Okay, Lois, would you like to --

Good evening. My name is Lois Yampolsky. I'm a parent activist, a child advocate. I just want to tell you that I'm back and with a vengeance. Edison really scared me tonight. After being paid close to $3 million to do an analysis, they can't tell us where we fair in the country in education. If Edison thinks that the parents will stay quite, they are sadly mistaken. If Edison thinks they can make a profit on our children, they are mistaken. This is Philadelphia; 235 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 this is not some small town. They need to get familiar with Cottman Avenue, Germantown Avenue, and Broad Street. Because if we have to, we will shut them down. Don't mess with us. Edison 's track record stinks. That's as plain as I can say it. They don't know the first thing about education in Philadelphia. What is so different about their organization? Do you think we trust them with $1.7 billion to play around with? I don't think so. This is nothing more than a political move by a former Governor and present Governor to have school vouchers. They couldn't do it the way they wanted to, so they'll do it this way. I promise to make sure that everyone I speak to watches every move they make. Believe me, if there's one bad move , my will pay the price. I guarantee it. Let's see, so far the top 55 positions will be controlled by Edison. Edison will have complete control over the checkbook in the amount of 1.7 billion. Edison has a history of steering away from students with special needs because it's too expensive. What do they intend to do with them, 236 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 Throw them out? Privatizing of custodial and cleaning of the schools? We need to have smaller class size, which means we need more teachers. Edison thinks our student/teacher ratio is lower than average so they want to eliminate teaching positions to save money. Oh, and by the way, after two about a half years, the teachers contract won't be worth the paper it's written on. Maybe the parents of Philadelphia should look into filing a class action suit against the State, Because it is our taxes that is go into the City of Philadelphia School District and the State wants to misuse those funds. You know, Edison hasn't hand seen me in action, and I never make threats I can't keep. But I promise to do everything in my power to stop them from running our school system into the ground for their own profit. Thank you. (Applause.)

Lois, we promise you, we'll be right there with you.

Cottman Avenue looks more inviting every single day.

We'll be right there. 237 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 REPRESENTATIVE WASHINGTON: Rotan Lee and Michael Churchill. Dr. Jolly Christmas. Who is this gentleman here?

Reverend Ernest McNeil. REPRESENTATIVE WASHINGTON: You're not on the schedule. REV. MCNEIL: I was with Rotan Lee. REPRESENTATIVE WASHINGTON: Excuse me? REV. MCNEIL: I was with Brother Rotan Lee, I was there as part of his group. REPRESENTATIVE WASHINGTON: Okay. Only Rotan will be able to speak, okay? REV. MCNEIL: All right.

My name is Jolley Bruce Christman. I'm a senior researcher at Research for Action, a small non-profit here in Philadelphia that studies educational reform both in this City, but also across the country. I've come tonight -- I thank you for the opportunity to testify. And I've come tonight to talk to you a little bit about what I and my colleagues at research or action have learned about school reform and what works in the Philadelphia Public Schools. 238 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 Most recently, we've been working on a study of educational reform with the Consortium for Policy Research and Education. We've been in more than 40 schools for five years. We've interviewed hundreds of teachers observed in hundreds of classrooms. We have a lot of data to share. Mainly, I've come here, though to witness or the people in schools, the students, the teachers and the principals and to talk to you a little bit about what I've seen. Like you, I've seen a multitude of educational reforms wash over schools. Well-intentioned and in some cases even well-thought-out educational reforms. But nonetheless, reforms that leave little imprint on what happens in classrooms between teachers and students. There are many reasons that reforms fail. But most of them have to do with not paying careful attention to the local context of schools, to the differences among schools and to the differences among the children that those schools serve. We need educational reforms that will help people in our local schools craft long-term, robust strategies for dealing with the most difficult problem in our own and other cities, how 239 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 to educate the large number of students who come to school every day with many educational needs. That's an urgent problem, one that requires bold thinking. Unfortunately, the urgency of the problem has often produced top down, short-term reforms that have been devised far away from the schools in which they enter. They tried to find easy-to-impliment strategies that will produce short-term results but without really changing the nature of education and what happens with students in our school. This is what I call the drive-by approach to school reform. We need longer-term thinking and more robust strategies. And I want to give you that kind of thinking, present a picture of it from the perspective of a Philadelphia school that's making consistent progress with its students and also changing its educational program in ways that I'm sure you would be as proud of as the people in that school are. In many ways, this school is like others in Philadelphia. It's a middle school. It has 1100 students. Almost 90 percent of those students are 240 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 from low-income backgrounds. It's a racially and ethnically diverse population. It has a high rate of turn-over, a problem that many of our middle schools face, with teachers coming and going. In fact, there were four principals in this school between 1994 and the year 2000. But this school made progress. Why is that the case? What can we learn from it? Like some other Philadelphia middle schools, this school, the Abbott School -- that's a pseudonym, it's not the real name of the school -- adopted a whole school reform model. It put in place small learning communities. That's the way it looked like other schools. But it looked different in very significant ways. And I think that those differences really point us to what we want for all of our schools. First of all, when you walked into Abbott School and you visited from classroom to classroom, you saw good teaching in all the classrooms. There were not pockets of success. There was consistently good instruction. How did this happen? It is an unusual thing that happens in urban schools. I want to tell you some of the 241 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES.

010642 things that we found out about why Abbott was able to provide consistently good curriculum and instruction to its students and why those students in turn made significant, although not dramatic gains, in their performance on standardized tests. So let me just give you a short list of the things that we found. First of all, there was a lot of parent participation in the school. Parents participated in choosing the principals that came to that school. That's something that doesn't happen in every school in Philadelphia, but needs to happen. There was a consistent strategy for school improvement, despite changes in the leadership. People adopted a plan, stuck with the plan, new leaders that is came into the school did not come with a whole different agenda. They built on what was there. There were processes in place for people to talk about hard things, to analyze data, to reflect on their practice, to deliberate, to disagree with each other but to come back the next day and say we're going do the best job we can. But most of all, there was dogged 242 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 attention every day to what went on with curriculum and instruction, attention by teachers who invested in their own learning, attention by parents who volunteered at the school in high numbers. It was significant blocks of time for professional that development and planning. What were the results of these efforts? The children at Abbot School made good gains, not dramatic gains, but good gains. And the case of Abbott shows us the road is long and hard to improving education for these children. We cannot afford another drive-by reform. We cannot afford to believe that changing some of the players, some of the programs will result in improving education for our children. There are real strengths in Philadelphia and in our schools to build from. And there are real questions about current proposals for change. For example, today a powerful idea permeates public thinking about Philadelphia schools. All of our kids deserve and can benefit from a good education, but the current proposals include provisions to ensure that all schools able to meet the needs of the full range of our City's children. Do they 243 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 outline clear and fair procedures for handling children who are considered difficult? Is there adequate oversight to guarantee that schools receive resources equitably according to their needs rather than according to the purse and te political sponsor? We know more about our schools now than we did in the. And That's because the District has opened the windows to let us see the data. The proposals on the table now offer common ways of assessing student progress and are there going to be mini measures of student achievement, not just one. The proposals include ways to monitor whether all schools are providing sound educational programs. We have an approach to teaching literacy in the early grades in Philadelphia that's reaping real gains in achievement. But our middle and high schools continue to be plagued by high failure and dropout rates. The current proposals offer viable, well-researched strategies for addressing the mini problems in our middle schools and high schools. What is the track record of success in those schools? Right now we have a spirited 244 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 conversation in Philadelphia about public education. The proposals under consideration now offer avenues for building the public will and civil coalitions necessary to support the kind of long-term hard work that it takes to put more schools like Abbott Middle School on the road to improvement. Or will we settle for drive-by reforms that leave our schools and our children in the dust? Thank you. REPRESENTATIVE WASHINGTON: Thank you. ) REPRESENTATIVE WASHINGTON: Rotan.

I'm Rotan Edward Lee and I'm here in really two capacities. I'm working with a group that has called itself the coalition of education reform with community control, which is comprised of approximately seven groups, universal companies and community connections out of South Philadelphia, the West Philadelphia Coalition, the Overbrook Coalition, the Neighborhood School Network, the Germantown Settlement, and the Nueva Esperansa. And These are groups that are interested in community control and operation of schools in their geographical area. So for the sake of argument, we'll call them clusters. 245 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642

Those aren't the same groups that are named in the Edison plan, the Edison proposal?

Some are, but not all.

So they already have bought into it?

Bought into...

Edison.

No, they bought into community school management. So whether or not they bought into Edison per se, I mean, I actually thing if you asked Dwight, Dwight said I'm going to take the train moving. If you ask Kenny Gamble, I think he'd say that, too. They've bought into community control of schools. And I think that distinction needs to be made. I want to tell two quick anecdotes. Thirty years ago I was in jail for civil rights. And I didn't call my mother for about two or three days sitting in jail. So I ended up calling Rush and her husband, who came down and bailed me out of jail. And they bailed me out of Jail for two reasons. One is because they were in favor of what we were doing, which was trying make sure that 246 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 there was quality education for African-Americans in this country and particularly the State of Maryland, which at this time was under the leadership of one Spiro Agnew. And the second issue is that if they could have, they would have been in jail themselves because they would have marched for the same causes. So I say that looking at her now, 30 years later because she would do the same thing and largely is doing the same thing now because she could have retired years ago and spending her time in Bermuda, as it were, or Myrtle Beach, which is I understand your spot. But the point is that she's here because she wants to be here. The one mistake that I think that Edison has made -- they made a lot of mistakes, but they're not all wrong. Is that they haven't really understood that there's a lot of passion about this issue in this town. And it is embodied in a lot of people. And I chose Dorothy Rush because she probably has been at it at that table the longest and certainly the longest in my life. And we don't always agree, Dottie Rush and I, but the point is that she's always available to debate the issue. Sometimes at her house, sometimes at my house, 247 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 sometimes on the street. And if she doesn't like it, she'll tell you. But I'm the say way. And I think Edison missed that nuance. The second thing that Edison missed that I thought was intellectually unfair of them was to have a report that did not address economic fairness. That was a mistake. Now, it could have been that the Governor said, You don't get a contract if you do that, and maybe that was the deal. But You can't talk about education reform and not talk about tax reform at the same time. Every percent increase in the state tax base is about a billion dollars, Every 1 percent. A 2 percent tax increase across the board in this state is an additional $2 billion of availability. Even with an additional 2 percent tax on the current population, that tax base would still be less than the state tax bases for the States of New York and new Jersey. Now, there is not a Governor who wants to talk about raising taxes, and certainly not a Republican governor. And What I didn't like about Tom Ridge -- and I don't know Governor Schweiker, but I do know Tom -- is that he was very disingenuous in sending the Republicans to this town to talk about education 248 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 reform and not talk about money at the same time. Unfair. I have said often, I have said in my columns, I have said in speeches that I have made education is a political issue and it has to be dealt with as a political issue. And It's unfortunate that the dialogue politically has a direct effect, and oftentimes negative, on the children, Which gets me to the second part. " It raised the question as to why black kids don't read and can't read. I was stunned as I went around the City, went to schools, talked to students from K to 12th, and stunned at the fact that they didn't read, didn't want to read, didn't care about reading, many of them very bright kids.

And I got very angry when I would read the literature that talked about the African-American and Latino children being literally deficient, phonetic deficit, lingually underwater, whatever the metaphor might have been, particularly for a group of people that have spent a life time of civil rights advocacy on brilliant oratory, whether it was Frederic Douglas way back or Jessie Jackson 249 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 today and zillions of great orators in the middle. Why weren't we reading? So I started a program this spring called "Reading for Life," and have since set up a corporation which beta tested about 50 middle school students. We had it at the Christian Street Y, raised some money, put some money together, bought some computers, and it was based on the notion that here's what we're going do, we're going to read, you're going to read to us, we're going to read to you, you're going to read to us. I mean, there's no 13 magic to this. There were some phonetics involved, but the whole purpose was to reacquaint students with words and phrases, critical thinking. Five days a week, four hours a day, all summer from June through starting of school and the students were there every day and they hated it. " They didn't. " And they were there. 250 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 But the point was as they begin to evolve, I began to realize that we could bridge this gap. Now, I've been spending an awful lot of my time -- not on Wall Street anymore, none of that stuff -- I'm in schools every day. Before I came over here, I was in the fourth and fifth grade classes at Universal Institute Charter School dealing with the ten under-performing students at each of those grades working with them to get them ready to do what I call the start-stop process. Start-stop. Because their whole life from here on out is start-stop. Start stop. And I realize how difficult it is every day dealing with fourth graders and fifth graders. And I'm doing the same thing at the Porter Day school and Broadway Academy. You know where that is, up -- that's Davis sisters up off of Bellfield. And these are young kids who are a lap r two behind. You know, when African-American children come to school, they haven't had thousands of hours of people reading to them. I know we have to go through some radical comprehensive changes. Now, I believe what Edison did do well was bring together an aggregation of some very, very 251 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 talented people and wrote some very, very interesting things about how to make schools work. I have said publicly that I don't believe that they deserve the keys to this City or any other city because there's not enough background to say that they're all that. But they're also in an industry of Wall Street, and I've spent a lot of time in that venue, that is a very marginal industry. The Wall Street mavins are not sold on education privatization as something they are going to advance to the public and say, Here's where I want you in the equities and fixed income business to put equities into education privatization. I don't care if the stock 8 to 23 because it is a very uneven business. And I think Anvil (ph) the Columbia University School graduate that he is struggling with Wall Street really put it on the head. These are not cars and boats and planes; they're people. So it becomes a little bit unwieldy when you're talking about how do you measure profit performance in a very marginal industry. But That's Chris Whittle 's problem. And If you all remember the years 25 ago, health care was never privatized. When my not 252 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 father was practicing medicine, all health care was part of the public venue. Today, you would be hard press to find any part of health care that's not part of the private venue. Now, Whether or not education will go through a similar transformation from being all public to private, I don't know. And I'm not here advocating that one way or another.

What I am advocating is the need for comprehensive and radical change where there are high standards, high performance, available resources to make things work. And That runs from the capital budget to schools that is are not working in thier physical plants because you can't do algebra on a day in January when it's cold and the heat doesn't work; and you can't do chemistry on a day in the summer where the air conditioning doesn't work. So There is a correlation between the quality of the physical plant and whether students learn. There is a correlation between students having the book that everybody else is using or an older book or no book at all. All those things make sense, and there is a lot of what Chaka said that made sense. But here's what also makes sense. Communities should have, in 253 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 my view and in the view of this coalition, control of schools. They should have say-so about principals. They should have say-so about operations. And in many cases, they should be bona fide partners in the day-to-day operation because as part of the choice menu, not the word "choice" within the Republican context of that -- getting back to the fact that education is a political issue -- but choice meaning alternatives other than sending a child to the Turner Middle School there should be some opportunity to find a charter school there be or somebody running the charter middle school where the people who live off of Baltimore Avenue and in that community begin to say, "We have say-so in how the school operates. To me, those issues are dynamic and central. I do not like the way in which the Governor has gone about this process. I've said to some of the people who have run this place from the Chris Whittles to Wayde and to Tucker and to others, the file following: They're smart, and they really are. They've done some really good things, but they've come here in the worst possible light possible: Having a Republican governor shove down 254 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 the throat of the largest Democratic compound in the State and say, You're going to do this. I mean, even if they were Santa Claus, it wouldn't be right because they weren't a Democratic Santa Claus, they'd be Republican Santa Clause. And this is right after, say, we'll take the parking lot or whatever the next sortie might be, as rumor rolls about the Housing Authority. So unfortunately, the politics and turf fight have really muddied the waters here. When I talk to LeAnna early on, I said to LeAnna, "When you start to run this hearing and you get together with your counterparts, you have to take the position that what we're really after here is the best for the children and not the political fight that is brewing here. And there is a political fight and we're not into the third round yet. The third round doesn't start until a few day from now and God knows I'd hate to see a thousand or 2,000 students and parents in front of schools and shutting them down for 10 or 15 days. So when the kids take that next battery of tests, they'll be under water again, which makes absolutely no sense to me. So there's got to be a way for both governmental entities to 255 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 get together and kind of resolve this issue. Now, should Ed Edison run the entire School District? Absolutely not. There is no 5 nobody on the outside that should run the School District. And as I said to Michael early on, the greatest number of elected officials in the United States are School Board members. If you take the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania alone in the 502 or 3 school district and look at the number of people who are elected to the School District, There are more elected school board members in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania than any other elected officials and more elected school board members than any other elected officials in the United States. So school boards are not about to release the public's control of education.

I mean, it's too ingrained. But does that mean that schools do not want to have outside partners come in and pay for them, whether they're profit or not profit, to help run better systems? I don't think that that's not the issue. Are they going to relinquish all of that? Should they be forced to relinquish all that of that to an outside organization to run the entire venue? No. And I think that's unfair for the 256 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 Governor to do that to us and it's unfair to Edison which has a lot to offer to be placed in that situation. Because they're getting peppered not on their pedagogy. They're not getting peppered on the quality of what they might be able to do. They're getting peppered on, where have you done this before because we don't want to be in a situation where you haven't done anything and can't demonstrate to us the quality of you what you've done. So In closing, let me say this: I give them some prepared remarks. I gave them to LeAnna. I'd like you to make sure that Donna gets one. She'll enjoy it. The issue becomes this: At the end of the day, we have 210,000 students between 70 percent and 80 percent of which comprising the African-American and Latino populations who with the exception of the magnet schools are behind, and we have to do something about that. And the something that we have to do should be done within the framework of what's the best for them in a structured way and not the best for us in a political way. And how we're going be able to juggle that becomes very difficult. Thank you, Madam Chair. 257 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642

I think you started the issue of community local control of schools. And I want to understand based on your review and analysis of the Edison proposal, my read of it says that given that they have stated their intent, to manage the growth of charter schools, what is your understanding of the extent to which that proposal will in fact increase costs, increase the inclusion of communities in determining their schools versus narrow that determination to a limited number of partner that is are spelled out in the proposal? I'm trying to reconcile your stated commitment to local control with a proposal that, in fact, I think is narrowing the control of schools to a limited number of organizations that have, in fact, signed on the dotted line in support of Edison. And I would further want to say that I've been in this community for a while and this notion of local control is a difficulty one because you never know where the local control is going to come from. And let me just give you an example of that. It goes back about four years and it, in fact, involves Germantown Settlement, which I know based on my professional career is an outstanding 258 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 organization committed to the Germantown community. However, I was at a community meeting at Germantown Settlement into which a woman entered the room and said, "Who are you people sitting in here saying that you are our community?" This notion of local control is complicated. And you , I think, based on the proposal, are in fact narrowing the opportunity for people to be involved in their community. The Edison proposal, that's my read of it. I'm just trying to follow your comments about local control and match them to the Edison proposal in my read of it. Maybe I misread it. Can you help me with that?

I can give you 30 seconds on that.

You can give me more than 30, I think.

If there is a week point in the Edison proposal, and there are many week points along with good points, the issue of how they would attend to address local control, in my view, is week.

Well, can you just give me 30 seconds then on the strong points, since you were 259 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 --

I want to stay with your question. There are community group that have formed together who believe that they are capable and are developing the capacity to manage schools. Kenny Gamble beliefs that in South Philadelphia. Dwight Evans believes that in West Oak Lane. Emanuel Freeman believes that is in Germantown Settlement. They're trying to be able to not only identify the schools that they would like to manage, but be able to build curricula design and the management capability to operate that. To suggest that that is not possible would not be fair. It is more likely than not that they can build that capacity. Now, there ought to be criteria established to determine whether or not they are capable of doing that. But in point of fact, Manny Freeman, Kenny Gamble and Dwight evens think that they can do a job and are willing to put together the kind of curricula design, fiscal and managerial accountability to demonstrate that they can.

Can I just ask you then, the charter school law provides the opportunity which both Kenny Gamble and Manny Freeman have taken 260 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 advantage of to run schools in thier neighborhood, as has Dwight. They have some years of experience under their belt, they are yet untested. What is it that is not available through the charter school law that would be available through the recommendations of Edison that allowed you or resulted in in your support for the Edison proposal?

The speed to the be able to do that in large chunks as opposed to the bureaucracy that is associated of doing a charter school by charter school process. And a charter school by charter school process does not lend itself for feeder school systems where you start at grade K and you go through high school and control the entire feeder school dynamic. So I think that speed does that. In addition to that, the groups like Kenny Gamble and Manny Freeman and Dwight evens, I'm just using those three, are also trying to expand the base of the school operations to a broader community involvement that includes the distribution of multiple services where the school becomes the centerpiece of their community. And These are not new concepts. These are concepts, however, that are 261 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 not quite as tried and tested in this environment, and I think that they might very well work. So The community school concept is a cluster-based concept. But to specifically answer your question as to whether or not those groups represent all the people in those communities, and those people in the communities would say, yes they do and yes they don't, the answer would be no. But do they represent a significant contingent of our community, can they demonstrate capacity to operate and provide services for a broad community? The answer to that question is yes.

I'm a resident of the same Germantown neighborhood as Germantown Settlement. And my only observation is that we do a charter of law that allows for local choice and local control. In fact, that charter law by this school board has been interpreted to put emphasis on the opportunity for grass roots organizations to propose and, in fact, operate charters. Further, there's an appeal board that if this board is not interested or appeals that at school is not qualify, they can also go directly --

This is larger than the 262 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 charter concept. This is charter-plus.

It's a charter-plus. But I guess I would want to make sure that what we're not doing is narrowing choice by saying, these five groups or ten, however many, are the chosen ones versus an opportunity for any community, whether it's the Asian-American community, the Latino community, or other members of the community to propose the kind of charter schools that they might want. I would just ask that we are careful an not make a decision that narrows choice to a few groups versus maintaining open opportunity --

I think that's a fair statement. The management of cluster groups does not preclude or exclude the evolution and operation of charters. The Charter movement is separate and distinguishable from that, and I think that there ought to be as many charter schools as can be managed and people able to demonstrate their capacity to perform them. But the operating of the clusters doesn't preclude that.

To switch topics for a minute. Are you still a health care guru? I know you were in the health care industry a couple years 263 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 ago. Are you still pretty current?

Still do a little bit of that.

What are you hearing in terms of health care -- what are insurance companies asking these days in the last couple of months and now while this Edison report has been going on, what's the market rate increases that insurance companies are talking about, what range?

20, percent. Between 20 11 and 25 percent. 12

I think if you're huge 13 you're really huge you're in the high teens. How 14 credible do you think a report would be that had 15 that estimated that amount in the single digits, 16 let's say, in the 7 percent area? Would you think 17 that's a credible estimation? 18

I'd question that. 19

Okay, thank you. 20

I'd absolutely question that. 21

My name is 22 Michael Churchill. I'm chief counsel of the Public 23 Interest Law Center of Philadelphia, and I represent 24 the community groups that have brought suit along 25 with the School District and the City in the case of 264 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 charging the State with discriminating in school funding formulas against the City of Philadelphia. Before I get onto that subject, I just want to stay I could not disagree more with Rotan on his last comment in response to you, Christine James. This is not charter-plus that's being proposed because the essence of the charter is that it was a choice. Parents could choose charters if they want. There is going to be no choice for the residents of these areas as to whether their students are going to go there, and it's a major change. (Applause.)

I want to talk to you -- it's late and it's going to be very brief. I want to talk to you about two numbers that are not in the Edison report or in the Governor's report, and they're not there for a reason. The numbers are $450 million and $420 million. $450 million is the amount that the Philadelphia School District would receive if it were receiving funds from the State on the same basis as school districts with comparable levels of poverty which were predominantly white. This is according to one of the most well known 265 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 established economists in the City of Philadelphia, Professor Anita Summers. The other number, 420 million, is what happens when you multiply 210,000 students by $2,000 a student, which is a difference between what Philadelphia has to spend for its students and the average suburban student. Now, just think of what you could do with between $420 million and $450 million every year. You wouldn't have the deficit that's requiring us to sell our souls to the Governor and let him bring in Edison. You could reduce class sizes. You could train your teachers. You could provide for the facilities that are missing. You could have all the arts and music programs that have been cut out. You could have the summer school. You could have intensive learning for those students that is need it. Essentially, you could do all of the programs that the School District said it wanted to do in the empowerment plan that it presented to the State in which the state approved just this spring as the appropriate way to go about improving student performance. Now, I don't want to belabor the point. 266 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 It is an important one, though. It is not in the plan because what they want to do is basically avoid the issue of how to pay for educating poor minority students. (Applause.)

This is education reform as avoidance of real reform. Now, one of the problems that you have in this State, however, is that -- and one of the good things about it is that Philadelphia is not alone in being underfunded. There really are 360 School Districts in the State which had very substantial gaps of over $1500 per student between what they ae able to spends and what the top percent of the school districts in the State are 17 able to spend. That means there are considerable 18 allies for the tax reform that you heard Congressman 19 Fattah talking about as a necessity and which my 20 good friend Rotan Lee talked about earlier when he said it was a fraud not to talk about the fiscal elements. There are 360 districts which are potential allies in dealing with the legislature. It is, frankly, criminal that the School District 267 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 and the City have not sought to mobilize those on their side to get substantial reform. We are not going to get $450 million, frankly, only for Philadelphia. That isn't in the cards politically. I think everybody recognizes it. You're going have to show that, in fact, there is a reform for others also. There have been several proposals on the table in the legislature over the course of the last two years, including one introduced by a Republican Senator, Senator Rhodes, and one introduced by a democratic representative. Both of those proposals had bipartisan support. And It is up to you to start to moving those if you really want to solve the problem. But do not -- the important point for this hearing is to recognize that in fact they are not being Santa Claus when they come in and say, "Well, we'll provide $75 million more to make up for the problems of this year's deficit." That is against the 420 million to $450 million which would be a fair measure of what they should be providing. That's really my remarks. But I do want to say one other thing here about the structure of what is being proposed. There is something attractive about the idea of introducing competition 268 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 to see whether or not the School District can perform some of what it is doing better. One of the major problems of the proposals before you, however, is that it is offering to replace a monopoly with another monopoly, to give the whole system over the Edison with no accountability on their part to any elected body and to have responsibility for the entire system is merely to have one monopoly which in the end is not designed to provide the kind of levels of competition that they claim is their goal in this process. So I urge you to keep your eye on the ball of the money and its absence. Michael Mash was right on point. They are going to try to reduce the total expenditures even while they are, in fact, modestly increasing the revenues, they are planning to reduce the total expenditures and widen the gap between what Philadelphia is able to spend for its students and what the surrounding communities are able to spend in theirs. No one has ever justified to me or explained why it is fair to try to attempt to educate Philadelphia students for less than what it costs to educate students in our suburbs. Those students come with less educational deficits, less 269 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 financial problems, and more help at home. The state government has repeatedly recognized that the cost of educating students with the backgrounds that we have in Philadelphia is higher and, nevertheless, they want us to do it with less. That just fails the basic fairness test. Thank you.

The term "community control," that has many, many definitions. And in fact, in one of my earlier reincarnations, I was part of the community control movement in the New York City as a teacher. Community control at that point meant that the people, the whole of a neighborhood, the whole of a district, not an organization, not a community development corporation, the parents of the students, the parents of the students voted, elected, selected. The concept in its conceptual aspect, a very good one. And they would be given hiring powers. They would select the board. After that I train people so that they could become members of local school boards that control local schools districts. And they would sit and they would have powers to hire the principal, the district superintendent, work on the budget. They would be the central board and 270 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 there would be other boards across the City. It got corrupted along the way. It got corrupted by the politicians. It got corrupted by the process that of people coming into it. But community control, that's what it meant. What we're talking about in Philadelphia, what we're talking about in the Edison process is not community control, because it isn't the community who is going to be making the hiring decisions, the budgetary decision. It's going to be one organization that has been contracted and working together with Edison to be able to put that forward. That is not community control.

Kenny Gamble is going to speak Saturday on his own. Dwight Evans, I mean these are people --

Excuse me. Dwight has a dual role here, and it bothers me because he is legislating and he's also trying to --

I want to center in on -- as opposed to getting into the politics of the personality, let me take a minute to talk about your concept because I was in grad school in New York when this process was going on in New York. Here's 271 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 the deal. Kenny Gamble, and I'm going to use Kenny because he's not a politician. He said, Look, I want to come into a community that is deteriorating and here's what I want to do: I want to try to do housing, I want to try to do job training, I want to try to do health care, I want to try to do education. What I want to do is I want to get my arms around this community in much the same way the Mils City's programs attempt to work in the late 1960s.

And we know what happened with that.

And I'm saying that this is a later day, this is a new day. This is a day that people become smart. Now, listen to this: So what he has attempted to do is to try to bring all of those entities together to work for the citizens, the children , the parents, and work in such a way that they are integrated. So he says, in order for me to be able to do that effectively, I need to be able to have some say-so in how schools operate because I'm developing a community base.

But is that community 272 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 control?

His view, which I agree with, of community programs is to enhance that market community, not just himself because community connections encompasses the religious community and other community groups. It is a stronger, better later day model city with respect to community control. How can you argue that, Angel? We don't know if it works because it's evolving.

Because it is not what you what you're saying. I mean, we're using semantics and wordplay in order to project an image is that is not true about it. It is not community controlling.

It's a community facade for other people who have control of the system.

And you know very well because you and I are good friends. And The use of words and the use of different terminology in order to represent something that is not is very clear. It has been used today. Today, you know, the War Department is the Defense Department. But it is, again, not community controlled. 273 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642

Angel, I'm not trying to be euphemistic about this. This is an issue where the community, through its leadership has grouped together to try to be able to manage how a system works better. I'm using Kenny Gamble for the very reasons that I don't want to get into Dwight and the legislative issue, but it is a community based community controlled system. It is that.

Mr. Churchill, could you possibly give us a brief update on the status of the federal case?

Yes. The federal case was initially thrown out by the District Court Judge. On appeal, the Court of Appeals upheld the right of the community groups and School District in the City to bring a lawsuit saying that there were violations of the federal regulations which said you could not have a funding system which had a discriminatory impact. Just at the time we were getting ready to try that case and we're going through the process of discovery so that we could find out what was happening, The Mayor and the Governor, Governor Ridge at that time, entered into an agreement to suspend any further operation of the 274 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 case so that they could spend a year negotiating some kind of a settlement. In fact, during the course of that year, it turned out that the Governor sent one letter to the Mayor, and that was the full range of any attempt by the State to have any kind of discussions with the Mayor or the School District prior to May of this year when in the 11th month the School District itself initiated trying to have those discussions. Nevertheless, the matter was then suspended for another three months until October 31, to, again, allow this negotiation process. And it has been on an defecto extension until the end of November. At that point, the case can resume. But in the meantime, I must tell you that the question of whether or not we can proceed under the legal theory that we had been proceeding under that you could sue to enforce these regulations that say no 20 discriminatory impact have been called into question by the United States Supreme Court. And the third Circuit has another case in which they will decide that issue. And so My guess is that there will be not extensive action in this case until that is decided, which I hope will be sometime in December. 275 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 At that point, we will be prepared to resume this action as a vigorously as we can. We have used this year to make sure that our expert keeps getting the most up-to-date numbers that we can get out of the State so that we can make sure that the factual situation has not changed. And I can tell that you since we filed this case originally in 1997, I guess it was, 1998 until now, the State funding formulas have not shown any change in the amount and level of discrimination, not only against Philadelphia, by the way, but against all of the predominantly minority school districts in the State. And the economists tell us that from their point of view -- I heard the word "robust" earlier -- these number are very strong and very robust and they are very confidant that they will hold up in a trial. We are anxious to get that going again. And as I said, as soon as we can restart it, we will.

I Thank you for the explanation.

Thank you. Are there any other questions of these witnesses?

Can we get some free legal add Vines or analysis on a specific area. One of 276 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 the things THAT the School Board most enjoys is hearing from the people who we will hear from the rest of the this evening and on Saturday at our many meetings in the community. And I have not be able to figure out whether or not the Sunshine Law will apply and will there be regular meetings and opportunity for community input into somebody somewhere as it relates to the proposal.

Well, that's an interesting question. As I understand it, though, the Sunshine Law applies to legislative bodies and the executives can sit and negotiate all they want. So I believe I believe that there is no requirement for a public meeting unless, again, official action needs to be taken. Now, the legislator has acted. If they have to act again, the Sunshine Law will --

Mr. Churchill I mean moving forward as it relates to the body that will oversee the district if the a proposal is approved.

Well, if there's a state control commission that's appointed, they would subject to it unless there was some explicit exception to it in that act. And I don't recall 277 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 there being one. And So in the absence of that, yes, when they meet and vote and decide the Sunshine Law will apply. And, of course, any contracts that they sign are public documents and those are subject to the Freedom of Information Act in the State.

They can do nothing in secret. They are absolutely subject to, as if they were the board because they have fiduciary and legislative responsibility. And They cannot pick and choose, they're still subject to state procurement law in addition to that.

Well, there's some exceptions written into if Act on that.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for your patience. Wendell Harris, Sarah Gilmore. After Wendell Harris and Sarah Gilmore we have Helen, Jim, Shelly Yanoff, Ed Schwartz. Then the last panel will be Barbara Dowdall, Dr. Karin Bivens and Eugene Bivens. And that's the end. Please state your name for the record. Speak directly into both mikes.

My name is Wendell A. 278 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 Harris. I'm a parent. And those credentials, I'm not even going to mention anything else, that should be adequate. I would like to say to our distinguished panel and people here that in the future, this is a friendly suggestion, when you have these public hearings, put some of the people, sprinkle them in up front, Community, parents, whatever, because it's not giving a good appearance. I mean, a lot of these people are very articulate. They have so much data and information. And again, the people, the parents, the community, have to wait around for six, seven hours even to make a statement. A lot of our statements won't go for 15 minutes or 25 minutes because we speak for our heart 16 and our guts and like a lot of you have done in many 17 cases. But I'm just saying in the future, try to 18 consider that. I felt bad that so many parents had 19 to leave. I know they have an opportunity on 20 Saturday. Edison people, most of them have left. Didn't have a chance on the question them. I just feel that the whole process if it's fair it will have everybody's credentials adequate. Do you want to address that Ms. Miller.

Let me remind you 279 11/8/01 - EDUCATION - RES. 010642 that we only had two people prior to the community input. We had Goldsmith, the CEO and then we had Edison. It was just lengthy. And Unless we just cut Edison off in half and brought people on and brought them back again --

I hear you.

Because other than that we've only had two groups. One the CEO of the school district. The second group was Edison and then we opened it up to the community.