COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, April 15, 2003 10:22 a.m. - - - BILL 020809 - An Ordinance amending Title 9 of the Philadelphia Code, relating to regulation his businesses and trades and professions by amending Chapter 9-1300... BILL 030141 - An Ordinance amending Chapter 9-700 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Amusement Businesses," by amending Section 9-703 to prohibit the use of pyrotechnic devices, fireworks, explosives, or similar materials within dance halls, all under certain terms and conditions. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO, Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN JAMES KENNEY COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN - - - V A R A L L O, INCORPORATED LITIGATION SUPPORT SERVICES 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 I N D E X BILL 030141 PAGE OTIS HAIGLER, JR., Licenses and Inspections.. BILL 020809 JACK MILNE, Pa. Home Inspectors Coalition ... 13 JULES FALCONE ............................... 20 BILL SHULTZ, National Association of Home Inspectors ........................ 22 MARYLOU BUFFUM, Greater Philadelphia Association for Realtors ............... 24 JACK MALLOY, Philadelphia Board ............. 25 3 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 030141
This is the public hearing of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections to consider Bills 020809 and 030141. We have Councilman Ortiz, Councilman DiCicco, Councilman Clarke, Councilwoman Brown, Councilman Cohen, and I'm Councilman Mariano. Can the Clerk read the title of the Bill 9 030141?
Bill 030141, an ordinance 11 amending Chapter 9-700 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Amusement Businesses," by amending Section 13 9-703 to prohibit the use of pyrotechnic devices, fireworks, explosives, or similar materials within dance halls, all under certain terms and conditions.
Testimony, Mr. Haigler, state your name for the record.
Good day, Councilman Mariano and Members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., Legislative and Regulatory Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today I'm here to provide testimony on Bill 030141 which, if enacted, will amend Section 9-703 of the Philadelphia Code governing dance halls to prohibit the use pyrotechnic devices. 4 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 030141 The recent tragedy involving the Station Nightclub in Rhode Island left an indelible impression on all of us who witnessed this event unfold in the role pyrotechnics played in this tragedy. We applaud Councilman Clarke for his initiative to address this important issue related to public safety. Also, as a Department who's mission it is to enforce laws to protect the safety of our residents and visitors, we offer no 11 disagreement that a review of all laws, regulations, and policies are warranted in light of this recent event. To under score this, the Mayor has directed that such a review take place under the direction of the Managing Director's Office. Additionally, the Managing Director has been directed to submit a report to the Mayor by April 23, 2003, which will include recommendations for amendments to all areas of Philadelphia Code affecting public safety in this type of occupancy. This will not only include Section 9-703 as highlighted in Councilman Clarke's bill, but also the safety requirements of the building and fire prevention codes governing this type of public 5 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 030141 assembly occupancy. In light of the work in progress by the Managing Director's Office regarding the aforementioned report to the Mayor, we respectfully request that once this bill is passed out of Committee today, Councilman Clarke hold his bill on Council Legislative Calendar until such time as the report is finalized and issued so that potential amendments may be offered to address this common public safety concern. It is our belief that the amendments may make Councilman Clarke's bill even more comprehensive and, thus, more thoroughly address our common concerns regarding this issue. It should also be pointed out that the Fire Prevention Code has a specific chapter devoted to the use fireworks, and any amendments to further restrict its use should appropriately be placed within the provisions of this Code which is retroactively enforced on all occupancies, including dance halls as regulated under Section 9-703. Current provisions of the Fire Prevention Code already prohibit the manufacture, display, sale, possession, and discharge of fireworks by the general public in the City of 6 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 030141 Philadelphia. Thank you for the opportunity to provide the Department's testimony on Bill 030141. I'll be happy to answer any questions at this time.
Any questions from the committee for Mr. Haigler? Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Haigler, I had a brief conversation with you yesterday and you indicated there were some things that this bill may cover that may not necessarily cover the intent. One was the sparklers that are frequently used. That's something that would be prohibited under this bill?
The bill appears to be very broad, and it could include certain things that may not be within the intent of what you want to cover like, for instance, the birthday sparklers that are on birthday cakes.
So the bill is very broad. And currently, we do have provisions in the Fire Prevention Code. And as I indicated, it would 7 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 030141 probably be more appropriate to place any further restrictions on fireworks or pyrotechnics under that particular Code since that is a Code that's retroactive on all occupancies in the City.
Okay. You will, as you indicated in your testimony, be providing whatever amendments will be required after the report is done?
Correct. I can't really speak for the Managing Director's Office or the Mayor, but I'm sure that discussions will take place based on any amendments that may be submitted in the future based on the report that's going to be submitted to the Mayor.
The Mayor did direct the Managing Director to submit a report to him by the 23rd of April.
That's soon. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 8 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 030141
Any other questions from the Committee? Councilman DiCicco.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Mr. Haigler. I'm just going to go out on a limb a little bit, if you will. Places like the First Union Center, Cruise Terminal from time to time they have events that may -- part of the activities that may occur at those events could be dancing. It could be a fund-raising event, something of that nature. Would they be prohibited -- because I assume that the First Union Center doesn't hold a dance hall license.
It's an entertainment center and there must be another title in which they're allowed to do events. And I'm supportive of the bill, I'm just wondering if this would in any way, shape, or form preclude those types of activities from occurring in places like the Cruise Terminal and the First Union Center that may have entertainment that would also -- the entertainers would be using some sort of pyrotechnic 9 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 030141 enhancements to their show. And it may be a stretch, but I'm just -- I don't want to see that happen so...
I understand your question, Councilman. Currently, the provisions of the Fire Prevention Code prohibits the use of fireworks, fireworks display, except in cases where that type of fireworks display is approved by the Fire Department in conjunction with a permit that's issued by the Department of Licenses and Inspections. The person who would be the one responsible for the fireworks display has to be somebody who is qualified and that has met the approval of the Fire Department based on their qualifications and in compliance with the Philadelphia Fire Prevention Code as well as the National Fire Protection Association standards governing the use of fireworks and fireworks displays.
Councilman DiCicco seemed to be comfortable with the response. I'm not quite clear. 10 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 030141 With respect to the types -- and I guess I need more clarity. And I'm assuming you'll indicate that in that report what can be designated as fireworks. In the First Union -- and I agree with Councilman DiCicco that we should not prohibit the First Union, particular, one, because it's not indicated as a dance hall; secondly, because it's a facility that would obviously, I'm assuming, would get the appropriate authorization from whatever agency governs that.
What specifically in terms of the fireworks? Is there a clear delineation as to what fireworks are.
Yes, sir. I have a copy of that. I have a copy from Chapter 31 of the Fire Prevention Code that I could read. I have copies of this that I could provide to the Committee.
That will be very helpful. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Any other questions from the committee? Councilman Ortiz. Yes. 11 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 030141
Given the trend nowadays in terms of acts actually, the rock and roll acts, and all of these other individuals to have their performance enhanced by background, lighting, pyrotechnics, and so on, how should we as a body weigh those things in terms of us being able to an attract these acts that come into the City for nightclubs and so on and have these sort of pyrotechnics within their performance?
I would say, Councilman, that any act or person or group or whatever that would come into this City to do this, they can't unless they get approval as required under the Code from the Fire Department. The Fire Department has to approve any type of fireworks display. And by their approval, that means that somebody from the Fire Department is present on site during the time that fireworks are being used. They have fire-fighting equipment available to deal with any emergencies. That's a part of the approval process. Part of the approval process is that they have to permit, and the permit assures an inspection, not only by the Fire Department, but it ensures an 12 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 030141 inspection by our department, Licenses and Inspections, our commercial industrial fire unit in conjunction with the Fire Department. So that's --
There are procedures that is part of the Code to require all these things. And if somebody were to violate it and we were to find out about it, then we would take whatever necessary actions that we have to, to deal with that situation.
I just want to set the record so that we have procedures in place so that these acts such as Kiss and other artistic performers that use these type of things are able to -- not "Oh, we can't go to Philadelphia. They don't allow this sort of thing."
Yes, sir. We do have procedures, and our Code specifically details exactly what can and can't be done and what the process is in order to perform that type of activity in Philadelphia.
Any other questions 13 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 from the Committee? (No response.)
Seeing none, are there any other witnesses on this bill? (No response.)
Bill 020809, an ordinance 10 amending Title 9 of the Philadelphia Code, relating to regulation his businesses and trades and professions by amending Chapter 9-1300, entitled "Home Inspection Business," by making certain changes to the license requirements, the license fee, the required conduct, and other provisions, all under certain terms and conditions.
Anyone here to testify on this bill? State your name for the record.
My name is Jack Milne. I am the President of the Pennsylvania Home Inspectors Coalition. Gentlemen, I do want to thank you for the opportunity of letting me testify before the Council concerning the exemption of architects and 14 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 engineers from the Philadelphia licensing law. When Act 114, which is the Home Inspection Law for the State of Pennsylvania was originally drafted, architects and engineers were not exempt from conducting home inspections without a basic knowledge of what our profession entails. It also include membership of a National Home Inspection Association so that the standards and practice and code of ethics would be followed. A recognized accredited exam would also need to be taken in order to test the knowledge of the architect or the engineer prior to holding themselves out as a home inspector. Although they may conduct home inspections, their findings could not be used for negotiations purposes. There have been many discussion between the lobbyists of the engineers and architects as well myself stating why they should be exempt. The reasons include additional years of college and tests that might be stricter or tougher than the current home inspection exams that are currently being held. Note that currently there are 32 different types of engineers that could call themselves home inspectors. Granted 5 years, 10 15 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 years, 20 years, 40 years ago the requirements for becoming an engineer are far different from those that are required today. Engineers and architects, however, are not required to maintain continuing educational requirements as the home inspectors are. I feel that this is the one of the primary reasons why they feel they should be exempt because of this requirement. Construction technics, installation standards, and manufactured building materials have changed dramatically within the five years. How can these individuals hold themselves above the law when they may not be kept current as far as the latest structural changes that have been going on within our own homes? As home inspectors, if we do see a structural situation, per the law, it is our opinion that these issues should be turned over to an engineer of that specialty. Engineers and architects are specialists. Home inspectors are generalists. Just because you may consider yourself a structural engineer, tell me what they may know in relation to their expertise of furnaces, boilers, heat pumps and electrical systems. I've had many engineers as clients 16 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 through my 20 years of doing home inspections who are clueless in relation to how an electrical distribution panel works or how an HVAC system works. That's why they hired a home inspector. Architects, on the other hand, are used to drawing in one dimension, but until it becomes three dimensional do they know if their designs in fact work. Why should these individuals also be exempt of the Home Inspection Law because they can design or construct? I can assure you that the house that I built at the shore did not have the elevations installed on the plan. Thus, when it came time to cut the pilings, they were three feet too short. The architect cost me at least 7,000 in additional repairs before I could complete my structure. Although this is only one example, I would not as a consumer feel comfortable having an architect conducting a home inspection on my behalf without additional training that is involved. Be careful how the word "home inspection" is used. It must be an evaluation of all structural, mechanical components, not just a single component such as a roof, a boiler, or a 17 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 structural issue. An engineer and architect may perform an evaluation based on their level of expertise, but this is not a home inspection.
Gentlemen and ladies, I would urge that you follow the language of Act 114 of the Home Inspection Law and not exempt the engineers and architects from conducting home inspections unless they want to follow the letter of the law and become qualified home inspectors. I do want to state that Jim Kenney has helped the Home Inspectors in various ways. We appreciate his efforts. The consumer may ultimately go to the architects and the engineers boards to file a complaint, however, my concern is are the boards set up for engineers and architectural standards or are they set up for the home inspection standards? I want to thank you for the opportunity to be before you today.
Thank you. Any questions for this witness? Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I appreciate the fact that I am not a 18 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 member of this Committee, allowing me to make just a few comments. As the witness knows, and I appreciate the witness' kind comments about our efforts. It's been a long process of kind of negotiating this back and forth with L&I dealing with the issues relative to the state, the realty associations interests, home inspectors' interests, architects and engineers interests. And I think in many ways almost everybody's gotten something from the process. And rather than continue to delay this, I would like it to go forward as-is, even taking into consideration the comments that have made, and I appreciate them. I do believe that architects and engineers generally have a larger level of education and licensing requirements, plus the issue of them being members of the AIA and continuing that credentialing, I think, is important. So at this point, what I would recommend is rather than try to negotiate this over again that we move forward with this bill and monitor it and see if there are any problems as a result of not including A and E in there. That would be my recommendation. 19 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 I do appreciate your position. I respect it. I just think we've gone through this long process and I'd like to kind of wrap it up and get us moving in one direction. And then if we have to come back and fix it, then I'd be happy to listen to that concern and maybe offer something down the road in a year or so from now.
I would appreciate that, Councilman. We have gone to great lengths with L&I, with yourself. The home inspectors are ready to come on board.
Everybody's been really cooperative and helpful. And I want to thank Licenses and Inspections. They've really listened and tried and made some adjustments, and everybody really gotta work together. I do recognize your concern that you are expressing right now. I'd like to see how it goes and maybe come back and revisit it in another year.
Yes. Just there is a Senate Bill that I'm going to be talking to the Senator next week on that would fully exempt architects and engineers from the State Law. They do understand that if they conduct an inspection at this point 20 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 that their finding cannot be used for negotiating purposes. So that's my only concern to the consumer here in Philadelphia, that if the engineer is conducting a home inspection that the consumer be made aware that if there's failing wall, please bring in the gentleman; we would be suggesting him anyway, but they won't be able to use their findings for their benefit.
Any other questions from the Committee for this witness? (No response.)
Seeing none, another witness out there? State your name for the record, please.
Hi, I'm Jules Falcone. I've been an inspector for over 30 years. I don't reiterate everything that Jack went through, however, there are a few issues. And when I started, I worked with Mr. Kenney back in the early '90s on this with Andrew Cleman (ph) and Jay Lamont and all. This thing came to light because it was a 21 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 consumer complaint. Somebody bought a house in Philadelphia had a problem with a home inspector who didn't have any insurance. I was concerned that the engineering insurance covers something they would do on a home inspection because it is in fact not engineering and if they would even be covered. And if you're worried about the consumers of Philadelphia, I think that goes to the core of the issue. The other thing is, being a member of a national organization, you have testing. And I understand engineering education and requirements, but one of the other requirements besides testing is a minimum number of home inspections. I don't think that you would want an engineer who has never done a home inspection do his tenth one in your daughter's house. So there are more -- it's a little bit deeper than it may appear, but being a member of a national organization it is important for the continuing education, but the insurance issue really protects the consumers. I think you're letting the consumer out with no protection. That's all.
Any questions for this witness from the committee? 22 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 (No response.)
Seeing none, any other witnesses? State your name for the record, please, sir.
My name is Bill Shultz. Last name is spelled S-H-U-L-T-Z. Vice president of local chapter of NAHI which is the National Association of Home Inspectors. Not to belabor some of the other points that are made. My question to the architects and engineers, is there a specific part of their education and training which specifically deals with the home inspection industry? I understand that they know loads and spans, they can probably calculated things that none of us would even want to get into. It is my information that there is no home inspection part of their training specific. This is something that has developed because of the lack pretty much of that anywhere else. It is also my understanding from talking to some of the members of L&I that there are specific licenses for plumbers and electricians and HVAC people who have to pass a competency to perform 23 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 that aspect of their job. For some reason, architects and engineers don't feel that they need to pass a competency test just to demonstrate their level of proficiency. And I'm curious how that comes into play with L&I. Being a contractor for years, a 8 comment that is very, very commonly made on any 9 architect drawings is field changes and variations, 10 as need. These people understand that things happen 11 in the real world that don't work on paper, and 12 these are the things that I think that just 13 experience will tell you, which again goes back to 14 that -- and please don't take this wrong, Councilman 15 Kenney, I think too often we try to get something 16 accomplished and it comes back to bite us down the 17 road. I'm very concerned that with all of the work 18 -- I feel that we're like we're 95 percent of the way through this. If we just wrestle this through and get this thing done right, we won't have to come back and do this again. It's very difficult to undo things. And again, no disrespect to anyone. I applaud all the efforts that's done here. Thank you.
Any questions for 24 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809 this witnesses? (No response.)
Seeing none, there's another witness out there? State your name for the record, please.
Good morning. I'm MaryLou Buffum, and I'm President of Greater Philadelphia Association for Realtors. I want to thank Councilman Kenney, first of all. This has been a long time and a lot of work and all of you have worked very hard and we understand the home inspectors' concerns. Our concern as an association is for the consumer. We want to be sure that the consumer is protected by whoever it is who does the inspections. We concur with the bill, as amended, at this time with the understanding that if there are issues, they can be revisited at a later date. Thank you very much.
Seeing none, next witness. State your name. 25 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - BILL 020809
Jack Malloy, M-A-L-L-O-Y. I'm Chairman of the Legislative Committee for the Philadelphia Board. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, fellow Committee Members. I'd like to thank you the opportunity to continue this dialog with the City and the Department of L&I regarding Code 9-1300 referred to as the Home Inspection Law. We're in support of this law, as amended. Our main concern is consumer protection. Our Association stands behind the intent of this bill which affords the consumer the opportunity to seek the services of only qualified people to perform a home inspection. Thank you.
This concludes the public hearing. - - - COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC MEETING COMMITTEE ON LICENCES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - - - Public Meeting conducted by the Committee on Licenses and Inspections, held in Room 9 696, City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the above date, to consider action on the following: BILLS 020809, 030141. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO, Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN JAMES KENNEY COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN - - - 27 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING
We will now go into the public meeting. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clarke for a motion on Bill 030141.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I make the motion that Bill 8 No. 030141 be reported out of Committee with a favorable representation. (Duly seconded.)
The motion has been made and seconded. All those in favor? (Aye.)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I offer an amendment to Bill No. 020809, a copy of which has been circulated to all Members of this Committee. (Duly seconded.)
There's been an amended offered and it's been seconded. 28 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING All those in favor of the amendment say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have. The amendment is passed. And now, Councilman DiCicco, you have another motion?
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move that Bill NO. 020809, as amended, be reported out of this Committee with a favorable recommendation, and a further recommendation for suspension of Rules to allow first reading at our next Session of City Council. (Duly seconded.)
A motion has been made and seconded. All those in favor? (Aye.)
Seeing none, the ayes have it. 29 04/15/03 - LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING That concludes the meeting of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. Thank you very much. (Council adjourned at 10:50 a.m.) - - - 30 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of April 15, 2003, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. RE: COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS ___________________________ Lisa C. Bradley, RPR and Notary Public