COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:20 p.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER, CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI BILL 070949 - An ordinance amending Title 10 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Regulation of Individual Conduct and Activity," by amending Chapter 10-300, entitled "Minors," by adding a new Section prohibiting minors from soliciting contributions of any kind on any roadway... - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
Good afternoon, everyone. The Committee on Public Safety is now in session. My name is Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller and I am Chair of this Committee. Would the Clerk please read the title of the bill.
Bill No. 070949, amending Title 10 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Regulation of Individual Conduct and Activity," by amending Chapter 10-300, entitled "Minors," by adding a new Section prohibiting minors from soliciting contributions of any kind on any roadway, by adding a definition, and by providing for enforcement and penalties, all under certain terms and conditions.
Thank you. I'd like the record to reflect that in attendance is Councilman Darrell Clarke, who has been appointed by the President to this Committee today, to my 3 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 right, Councilman Bill Greenlee, and to my immediate right, Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell, and myself, and that we have a quorum. I'd like to begin by thanking all those in attendance. This bill has been introduced to protect our children. The sponsor of the bill had to leave City Hall earlier today with an emergency, so she's not here, but I will express some of her sentiments. We support our children in all of their fundraising efforts. However, their safety is paramount. It's our intention to keep the children out of the dangerous streets and out of harm's way. With that in mind, would any other Councilmembers like to make any opening remarks? (No response.)
Okay. We'll call our first witness and only witness. Councilman Clarke, do you want 4 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 to make remarks?
I'll wait until the witness testimony. I had some questions about why we're only doing minors.
Oh, okay. Will Lieutenant Healy of the Philadelphia Police Department please move up to the table and move the mike close and identify yourself. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Ready?
You can start. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Good afternoon, Madam Chairperson and other members of the Committee on Public Safety. My name is Lieutenant Francis Healy and I'm a special advisor to the Police Commissioner. On behalf of Commissioner Johnson, thank you for allowing the Police Department the opportunity to voice its support for this bill. As we all know, children often 5 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 solicit funds for a wide range of activities and causes ranging from soccer camp to fighting cancer. While soliciting for these activities and causes are worthwhile and admirable, many children unwittingly place themselves in incredible danger while doing so. I'm certain we've all had the occasion to witness children dart into traffic or even stand in moving traffic to collect donations. The purpose of this legislation is clearly to protect children. Unlike a similar law on the state level, this bill 16 focuses upon children, and rightfully so. Children are smaller, less visible to drivers and are completely unaware to the extent of injuries that can happen even for a slow-moving vehicle. This is why the Police Department fully supports this legislation. There is no intent to restrict the right of children to solicit contributions, but rather to require them 6 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 to do so safely. In this piece of legislation, children are still free to solicit from the curbs and even the median strip, but not in the roadway. The roadway is best known as the blacktop. It's that portion of the road where the vehicles actually travel. This is just plain common sense. Equally important in this legislation is the duty placed upon the adult to ensure that they do not allow minors under their care, custody or control to also solicit in the roadway. While we can all understand the ignorance of children to inherent dangers, you can never assume that adults are much smarter. Therefore, placing such an affirmative duty on the adults often supervising these children is not only appropriate but necessary. In closing, let me note that consistent with many other ordinances, enforcement is not mandatory. Officers are rightfully left with discretion. 7 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 After all, the intent here is not to fine children, but to protect them. A warning may be all that's required, but should the warning go unheeded, the officers are given an effective tool to immediately remove the children from danger, which is our primary concern. For these reasons, the Department applauds and fully supports the legislation. This concludes my testimony, and I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.
Thank you. Are there any questions for this witness?
Let the record reflect that Councilwoman Joanie Krajewski is also in attendance.
Good afternoon. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Good 8 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 afternoon.
I have a question with regard to the legislation. As all of us realize, many police, firemen, all various organizations collect money, both adults and youth. I mean, I see it in my area, for example, at 30th and Market often, as many people who pass that intersection. And it would seem to me that the legislation for me would be easier supported if it regulated maybe certain streets or kinds of streets or intersections as opposed to -- if the Police and Fire and other organizations like that can collect money at 30th and Market, why can't kids collect money for their own groups as well or Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts and many other groups? LIEUTENANT HEALY: It's my understanding, ma'am, that this would not prohibit children from soliciting in any manner. They just can't do it in the roadway. They could stand on the curbs, 9 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 they could stand on the median strip and collect whatever they wanted. The problem is -- the roadway is basically the blacktop where the cars run. What happened was, this bill only regulates the kids standing in that area. So they're free to stand on the curb, free to stand in median strips like on Roosevelt Boulevard as well, which I don't necessarily agree is safe, but they're allowed to do so. They just can't dart into the moving areas where the cars go to collect. That's the only restriction.
So for anybody or over, if it's a median in 18 the street, it's okay? You're saying -- LIEUTENANT HEALY: Well, there's a state law that actually prohibits that, but that's a $5 offense. There's a state law prohibiting soliciting in the roadway, very similar to what's being offered here, but this one is specifically towards children due 10 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 to the inherent dangers that children have more so than adults. The Police Department can fine people standing in the roadway as it stands today, but what it is, it's a $5 basically a moving traffic ticket, and that's the only thing the officers can write. It's a $5 fine. What it does is, it doesn't remove the children from the danger. So if we walk up on the scene and somebody refuses to get out of the roadway, at best today what we can do is give them basically a moving citation, hand it to them and walk away. I can't drag them off the street.
But for the most part, do not we find that when youngsters are there, there's usually an adult with them? LIEUTENANT HEALY: And this bill specifically identifies the adults as being responsible to ensure the safety of the children by not allowing them to be in that roadway.
Well, 11 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 I certainly will agree with the -- I'm happy to sit in on this Committee as ex-officio and majority leader, but I think it discriminates against kids being able to collect and that I've never seen youngsters without an adult in an organized fashion collecting whether it be in a boot or whether they show you a form or whether they have on their drill team uniforms. There's always an adult. It's very well organized. We've all seen people on the streets and people who solicit on the streets, but the kind of solicitation that we see for organized groups, there's always an adult there, and I think this hurts their ability to raise money to help them survive, so many drill teams and other community organizations. But I will yield to this Committee, but I really think this discriminates against young people being able to positively learn how to solicit in a positive way to help charitable 12 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 organizations. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Lieutenant, good afternoon. I have to at least somewhat respectfully disagree with Councilwoman Blackwell. I do sometimes -- and I think the majority of times there are adults, but I have seen on various occasions kids out there without adults. I don't know what your opinion is on that. Has records indicated that you or the Police sometimes see kids out there without adults? LIEUTENANT HEALY: I can speak anecdotally from what I experience as a police officer. I experience children in the middle of Roosevelt Boulevard at a red light darting between the stopped traffic looking for donations, and I also saw that behavior in the presence of 13 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 adults, coaches or parents, that were present. It seems both the children and the adults were completely unaware of the danger that they were looking at, and that's why I really support this. Is it a restriction of the children? Somewhat, yes, but it's for their own safety.
I would agree with what you just said. I would ask -- and, as you say, the idea here is to protect, not to fine or arrest anybody. But if a youngster does persist, for whatever reason, or group of youngsters and there's not an adult present, is the Police, are they allowed to ask like what group are you with, who sent you out here, or in order to enforce the part against an adult, would the adult have to be present? LIEUTENANT HEALY: The adult would have to be present basically for the enforcement purposes. For the children, quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me whether you're soliciting 14 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 for Boy Scouts or fighting cancer. I see it as a very direct hazard for the children. So if they refuse to heed the warning of staying on the curb or the median, I would have the authority as a police officer to remove them from that hazard before something bad happened.
As I said, I agree with you. Are you aware of any other cities that have this right now offhand? LIEUTENANT HEALY: I know of other cities that have the state ordinance, which prohibits it on a statewide basis. Theoretically, no one is allowed to do this in the roadway.
Do some of the states carry a higher fine than, say, Pennsylvania does? LIEUTENANT HEALY: I don't know specifically.
Do you have any idea why -- that's awful, $5. Is it just it's an old ordinance? 15 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 LIEUTENANT HEALY: I can't say why. I don't know what their legislative intent was. I don't know.
Okay. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Thank you, sir.
Thank you. I think the biggest difference between the kids and the adults is their size. At Grays Ferry Avenue on my way to Penn if I go out to West Philly, I come off the expressway there and there are kids in -- it's multiple lanes, multiple turning lanes, high volume of speed and high volume of traffic, and I can't see them sometimes. Some of them are so small they don't come up to the door. So you could run over somebody, God forbid, 16 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 and you wouldn't even know it until after it was over. The other issue that I've seen too like on Columbus Boulevard is not usually kids, but young adults that come in a van from Delaware and solicit for like drug rehab in Delaware at Columbus Boulevard and Washington Avenue. And I know the Police have been out there actively moving them along, because, again, they're violating the state law, but I think the biggest issue for the kids is their size. And I know myself when I go through the intersection, I'm extra careful, because they're there a lot. I don't know if people pay attention, especially in rush hour. People are rushing to work, rushing to get home, and you could have a major tragedy without even -- LIEUTENANT HEALY: Another important thing to that is, often times when people are taking off, they start to switch lanes. When you switch lanes, you 17 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 look behind you, not in front of you.
Correct. LIEUTENANT HEALY: So these kids are trying to get back to the curbs before the light changes. It's very easy just to whack one of them. Even at five miles an hour is serious injuries.
I'm sorry. I'm trying to have a conference call with the sponsor of this bill so that we can be clear on certain issues. I also want to state for the record that Councilman Jim Kenney is also in attendance. He's a member of this Committee. I just want to add a little clarity. The sponsor of the bill says that when she talks about minors, she's talking about children that are unsupervised and under the age of 12, 12 and under. So I think I heard someone earlier say 18 and under. So we may have 18 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 a couple of amendments to make. Does anybody have --
Madam Chair, I was just going to say, if that's the case, I guess that would have to be put in the bill. I mean, personally I think is a little -- we could have it 9 a little older than that personally. I'm 10 not the sponsor of the bill, but... 11 LIEUTENANT HEALY: Quite 12 frankly, I would object to such a young age. The safety of the children even at 18, they're small children. I would go under 18. That would be my recommendation. If you're going to deal with children, then minors under I 18 believe is a safe standard to use, supervised or unsupervised.
I would say, Madam Chair, that usually when I think of minor, I think of under 18. That's how I read it. I mean, obviously if the sponsor wants to put it in. But I would agree with the Lieutenant. I think 19 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 under 18 makes sense to me. That's just my opinion.
I would support a bill that said or 6 under unsupervised. Then I would support 7 that. 8
Well, we 9 do need clarification from the sponsor. 10 Are there any other questions 11 for Lieutenant Healy here? 12 (No response.)
Thank you. Thank you for testifying. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Thank you very much.
You're welcome. We're just going to take a few minutes to try to get clarification from the bill sponsor. (Short recess.)
Are there any other witnesses wishing to testify on this bill? 20 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 (No response.)
Seeing none, this concludes the public hearing on the Committee of Public Safety. We will now go into the public meeting. The Chair recognizes Councilman Bill Greenlee for a motion on this bill.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that Bill No. 11 070949 be reported out of this Committee with a favorable recommendation and the rules of Council be suspended to allow for first reading at our next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
The ayes have it. It has been properly moved and seconded that Bill No. 070949 be reported out of this Committee with a favorable 21 11/27/07 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 070949 recommendation and, further, that the rules of Council be suspended. This bill 4 has been properly moved and seconded. This hearing is over. This concludes the public hearing on this bill. (Committee on Public Safety adjourned at 1:40 p.m.) - - - 22 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on November 27, 2007, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)