COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, 02/28/01 3:00 p.m. - - - BILL 000063 - Amending Chapter 6-400 of the Philadelphia Code relating to miscellaneous standards and requirements of the Health Code by prohibiting tattooing, body piercing, and body art establishments from providing services to minors without parental consent, and by requiring such establishments to operate in accordance with regulations promulgated by the Board of Health for the purpose of preventing injury and the spread of communicable disease, all under certain terms and conditions PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO, Chair COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS-BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 I N D E X WITNESSES: HEALTH DEPARTMENT Randall Hirschhorn, Director of . . . . . . . Environmental Health Services Richard Zipin, Chief of Environmental . . . . 17 Engineering for Environmental Health Services Ronald Rotatori, Primal Urge Salon. . . . . . 24 Brett Mapp, Co-owner, Inferno Body Piercing 29 South Street Bill Funk, Owner, Body Graphics Tattoo. . . . 32 South Street Meg Mass, Co-owner, Infinite Body Piercing 38 South Fourth Street Joanne Page, Concerned Parent . . . . . . . . 44 3 P R O C E E D I N G S
The Committee of Public Health and Human Services will please come to order. I'm Councilwoman Tasco, Chair of the Committee. We do have a quorum in the presence of Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown, Councilman Goode, Council President Verna, and myself. We'll ask the clerk to please read the bill.
Bill No. 000063, an ordinance amending Chapter 6-400 of the Philadelphia Code relating to miscellaneous standards and requirements of the Health Code by prohibiting tattooing, body piercing, and body art establishments from providing services to minors without parental consent, and by requiring such establishments to operate in accordance with regulations promulgated by the Board of Health for the purpose of preventing injury and the spread of communicable disease, all under certain terms and conditions.
Good afternoon. Would you please identify yourself for the record, please. 4 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063
Good afternoon, Madam Chairperson and members of the committee and Council President, my name is Randall Hirschhorn Director of Environmental Health Services with the Health Department.
Randall Hirschhorn -- that's H-I-R-S-C-H-H-O-R-N -- Director of Environmental Health Services with the Health Department. And with me is Mr. Richard Zipin, who is the Chief of Environmental Engineering for Environmental Health Services.
Thank you. I am here today to testify in favor of Bill No. 63. Environmental Health Services is responsible for investigating environmental conditions that will lead to the spread of communicable disease or injury. In this role, we respond to requests from the public and the Health Department's Division of Disease Control to investigate complaints of unsafe or unsanitary 5 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 conditions, such as the transmission of disease or the application of body art to minor children without the permission of their parent or guardian. When the Department first became alerted to the health implications of tattooing thirty-five years ago, there were fewer than five tattooing parlors in the City, and the Department received on average only one complaint every one to two years. Currently, we receive on average one complaint a month, which mirrors the growth of the industry. There are now 40 tattoo parlors listed in the telephone book, a percent 15 increase over the last year. And this year, for 16 the first time, the telephone book provided a 17 category title for body piercing. 18 During our complaint investigation of 19 these facilities, the Department has found 20 operations that range from organized, commercial establishments to those conducted by individuals in their own homes. Without regulation, both the commercial facilities and the in-home operations can pose serious threats to the public health. However, the in-home operations lack 6 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 even the most minimal sanitary and control facilities. For example, a residence inspected on December 22nd of 2000 revealed the occupant performed body piercing on children by having them lie atop his kitchen table, which was cluttered with his personal and household items, while the family dog walked freely in and out of the kitchen. While the Department has the authority to halt clear threats to the public health under the general provisions of the Health Code, Bill 63 will provide us with a more precise regulatory tool to help us ensure that not only those facilities that meet essential sanitary and infection control standards are permitted to operate. The passage of the bill will enable the Department to adopt regulations to establish a minimum acceptable level of care for the patrons of tattoo and body piercing businesses. Without these regulations, there can be no assurance to the public that a blood-borne disease cannot be transmitted to them; nor is there an adequate mechanism for the Department to intervene and prevent the body piercing of minor 7 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 children without personal permission. Supervision of these facilities can be implemented by the Department of Public Health without additional cost to the citizen of Philadelphia. In view of the relatively small number of existing properly-zoned establishments, the current employment of knowledgeable environmental Health Services inspectional staff and the willingness of legitimate establishments to pay a reasonable fee for the inspection and training of their operators, no additional General Fund revenue will be required. I am be happy to answer any questions that you may have.
Thank you very much. Now, would you just briefly tell us what this bill really does.
What the bill will do is provide enabling legislation for the Health Department to develop and implement regulations which will be very specific and precise to tattooing parlors and body piercing establishments. So basically, what the bill will 8 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 do is permit us to do that.
Okay. Are there questions for members of the committee? Councilman Rizzo.
How do you deal with a situation where a person lives in the suburbs, works in a City facility, a City-owned facility, what have you really accomplished? How do you protect the health of customers when you have no 11 control over that person that's already come to that particular environment with already a body piercing or if they choose to get it across the City limits?
Well, the danger in transmission of blood-borne diseases is to the individual getting the tattoo or getting the body piercing. So if they're coming to Philadelphia to have that done, these regulations will ensure that only those places that meet our standards will be able to provide that. But if Philadelphians go outside the City and go outside of our Health Department's jurisdiction, chances are very good that they will not have similar protection. 9 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063
How do you deal -- when we generically we say the word "body piercing" -- just recently, I was telling Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown about a situation where I had a food server with a device through her tongue, and I wanted to get up and leave, 'cause it was not the most pleasant experience. Is that also -- is that considered the same level as a body piercing? Would that also be covered here?
No. That is a body piercing very definitely, but it would not be covered under the bill or the proposed regulations. We would handle that through our food regulations, which already prohibit jewelry from coming in contact with food. So if a piercing were uncleanable, if someone, for example, were to have a piercing on their hand and that would interfere with hand-washing as a food handler, we would instruct their management that they would have to remove that. If it's in, say, for example, their cheek, where it would not come into contact with 10 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 food, unless they're doing something really disgusting, that probably would be okay. But we would evaluate each individual circumstance.
As a person that's well-versed in this, and hopefully like young people hear or read tomorrow about this problem -- how dangerous a procedure is it and how dangerous is it living with a body piercing, especially the one that I saw recently that severed the entire tongue? I guess, you've seen these also I.
Well, we have Dr. Carol Johnson with us, who is a medical epidemiologist with the Department, but I can say that of the number of complaints that we get, about half of them are due to infections because the people doing the tattoos or the body piercing are not sufficiently trained, and they don't 11 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 provide after-care instructions, so infections result. So that can dangerous.
So if you get by a couple weeks after the procedure, are their risks after the fact? In other words, during the period that infection could occur, once it's a month old, are you out of the woods? Is it just like a safe situation at that point?
No, sir, it's not. What we have found is that mostly every illegitimate operation out there, they either don't have sterilizing equipment or the equipment they have is very antiquated and they don't have a clue as to how to operate it properly. And if you're reusing metal instruments between patients, the risk of hepatitis, sometimes the incubation period will go out as far as 90 days or more. And by that time, the person has been a number of places and they may not even associate it with the body piercing, in which case, it may never be reported it to us.
I'm looking 12 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 at the bill for the first time. What is the penalty? what would happen if people are not in conformity with the ordinance, Bill No. 63?
Madam President, under the regulations that we have drafted in anticipation of the bill's passage, there are penalties that already exist in the Health Code, which would be monetary fines up to, and including, court hearings to prevent an operator who's really in serious violation from being able to continue. For the first time, there is licensing requirements for the operators as well as the establishment, and those could be revoked, which would in effect prevent them from continuing to operate.
So you would be able to close their business down completely?
What present regulations do we have governing body -- well, maybe tattooing. Body piercing seems to be a fairly new phenomenon, but what regulations do we have governing this now; do we have any? 13 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063
Yes, ma'am. Council has already considered and passed an ordinance 4 requiring additional zoning, imposing additional zoning requirements before these establishments can locate. Prior to that, they could operate wherever they liked. Now they do have to satisfy various requirements in that way. But as far as specific operations requiring sterilization, about not reusing certain things that could transmit a blood-borne disease, there are no specific regulations. And that's why we're hoping to close that gap.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong. I recollect that there was either an ordinance or a professional agreement. If a person comes in for a tattoo, are they able to sit down and get it immediately? Or maybe I'm just remembering a conversation where some of the tattoo management would say to a person if they were intoxicated or appeared to be -- to be intoxicated, they'd say, Look, why don't you go 14 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 home and think about this before do you this. Is that in some ordinance or is that just a professional --
That's a professional standard, and I would say to you that the folks that are here today from the industry are the legitimate operators, and we know that they don't do inebriated people and they don't work on minors, for example. Our concern is not really with them who have the proper equipment; they have the knowledge. Our concern is primarily with those people who are trying to do this, operating out of the their own home, associated with other criminal activities, and there's, right now, no controls over those.
I'm always interested and curious about how Philadelphia mirrors or does not mirror other cities around the country. And you mentioned in your testimony on that there has been a 20 percent increase over the past year. Where does Philadelphia line 15 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 up? Are we then becoming a leader in this effort or getting in line with what others are cities are doing with regards to this particular ordinance? Can you give us any insight on that?
Yes, I can, ma'am. There current are other states that have 8 similar regulations to what we're proposing. And 9 although Pennsylvania does not have State 10 regulations, I can say that two years ago, when 11 Mr. Zipin was preparing our regulations with our 12 Division of Disease Control, I mentioned to my colleagues in the other health departments in the State that we were developing that. And in that time, they have contacted us, because they're experiencing an increase in tattoo and body piercing establishments coming into their jurisdictions. That's Bucks County, Chester, Montgomery, Erie County; in the western part, Allegheny County, Bethlehem, York. They've all seen this increase.
And so they then have acted on the rise in increasing by developing or by implementing or by passing legislation.
Well, they've asked us 16 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 for copies of ours.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I apologize for not being here when you first presented your testimony, so if I ask you any questions that have already been asked, I apologize in advance for that. I notice in your testimony about the growth in the industry, that there is now a category in the yellow pages or telephone directory. Are any of those establishments that are now listed in the current telephone directory, do you know if any of those are not the legitimate 17 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 establishments? Are these people who are just working out of their homes or businesses that are not up to the code, that you know of?
Oh, yes. My name is Richard Zipin, Z-I-P-I-N. I'm the Chief in the Environmental Engineering Section. The facilities listed in the phone book generally have not been our problem facilities. It's been individuals that have been employed previously by these sites and are now doing work on the side or working out of their home or working out of a make-shift garage and are performing services. These facilities have zoning, and they are licensed facilities in the sense that they have the proper zoning requirements.
"These," meaning the list that is in the telephone directory?
Correct. Now, there are some jewelry shops that aren't listed here that far perhaps performing 18 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 services that they not fully equipped to do. So we do have some question with some of those that are listed here, not nearly the number of questions that we have with those facilities that are not listed in the phone book.
Explain to me if you can what these spin-off businesses are. A former employee or whoever opens his or her shop and works out of their home or a garage, how are they advertising business? Are they doing it by way of --
Word of mouth. What do when we find one of those establishments now? What is the procedure?
We immediately respond and conduct an investigation. Where we find that they're working under those conditions, we issue orders. Generally, those conditions are horrendous, as Mr. Hirschhorn pointed out. We issue orders to immediately cease activity, and we notify the people that have contacted us and request the input of other individuals if this 19 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 person is continuing to perform this service. We also notify the Department of Licenses and Inspections, because they are performing a business activity, we believe, without proper zoning.
Okay. And should Bill 63 be approved by this committee and ultimately voted on and passed, what will the Department do in terms of educating the public? I'm a potential customer to get a tattoo -- not that I am, but figuratively speaking -- or get my ear pierced or something; how would I know when I walk into the establishment that this is a place that meets the code and is a facility that meets all of the health standards and whatever else we require? How would we go about that?
Well, for the first time, licenses would be required from the Health Department, both for the facility, the physical and sanitary condition of the facilities, as well as separate licenses for the operators, attesting that they have been through our training as well as through their own professional training to operate safely. 20 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063
I guess some of the people who are here who have businesses can talk a little bit more about that, what the training is. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Just one final question. In the bill, it speaks to providing services to minors without parental consent. I believe Councilwoman Tasco may have touched on this. Is there a penalty attached to those who violate that provision?
Yes, ma'am. Actually, there is currently a provision in the Pennsylvania Criminal Code --
-- prohibiting this. 21 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 But it's considered a relatively low priority in terms of the ability of the police and the District Attorney to dedicate resources. So in consultation with them, what we are doing is establishing civil penalties so that we can move into -- the Health Department can move into court for those establishments that are doing that and impose equal or even more severe penalties.
Can you tell us what the penalties are under the Criminal Code?
I'm not sure, but it's not considered a very high level of crime.
I think that that's the most -- if there is sufficient resources dedicated to it by a criminal investigator to get a prostitution; whereas, we're not limited in terms of -- we're not stretched investigating crimes. 22 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063
So that we can concentrate more on this type of facility and devote the resources necessary to either get them to operate properly or to get them out of business.
That's -- I think part of my question's been answered. I was curious on what is available to us presently without this particular legislation, and I think you just explained it. Now, I'm presently working on some legislation to change -- for red light violators, to change it from a criminal to a civil, and we needed some legislation out of Harrisburg. Are you able to create this civil without going to Harrisburg and changing something? Are you going to need enabling legislation to do that?
No, sir. City Council can provide us the enabling legislation we need.
Without Harrisburg. 23 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063
Well, they have reviewed our regulations, our proposed regulations.
I think your issue deals with the motor vehicle, which brings in Harrisburg.
But we're talking about the Criminal Code also that involves Harrisburg.
And we're not modifying the Criminal Code; we're just establishing civil penalties, which, as a city, we are permitted to do.
Up to a limit, mm-hmm. 24 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063
Okay, thank you very much. Are there Mr. -- where's it? Rotatori. (Witness comes forward.)
Good afternoon. We need you to identify yourself for the record and to spell your last name.
And we notice that you have submitted your testimony, which we will give to the stenographer, and we would like for you to summarize it. (Mr. Rotatari's written testimony attached hereto.)
I've been working in this industry for about eight years now and also worked with the City of Wildwood and somewhat with the State of New Jersey as far as regulations. There is a strong need for regulations at this time because the ease of getting into the 25 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 body piercing business has come to the point where it's totally ridiculous. Any person can dial an 800 number and receive a video and be body piercing the next day, without any type of training in regards to sterilization or sanitation procedures that would be required not to transmit any type of virus during the procedure. If we go to the CDC and look up the verbal descriptions of jobs, you will find that the body piercing would be classified as a semi-surgical procedure, number one; and it will be classified as Category 1. This would be along with phlebotomous toxicologists and other people that work -- come in contact with blood, body fluid, and body tissue. The people who come in contact with this body mass should be operating under what's known as blood-borne pathogen standards, or what the standards set by OSHA regulations. These standards apply to anyone in this country, except body piercers who come in contact with this type of body mass. Primarily, the regulations should include operating under these standards. And the other situation is in regards 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 to the minors. I was kind of listening to the testimony earlier in regards to the penalty for piercing minors, and I would like to explain a little situation about what's happening in Wildwood, where it is a criminal offense to pierce minors. If you are caught piercing a minor in Wildwood, you get a ticket, you go to court, you pay a $300 fine. But the reality of the situation is each of these body piercing shops are generating 3 to $5,000 for every time they get caught for a $300 ticket. So it becomes financially worth it to take the risk to pay this ticket for $300. So if you're going to impose penalties, you need to impose penalties in such a fashion that it's not worth piercing a minor, it's not worth risking the business, it's not worth paying the price for doing the wrong thing.
Okay. The limit that Philadelphia has is a $300 limit, and I imagine the Health Department, if they wanted to go further or become State-regulated, then the fines should be more. So they have a copy of your testimony and certainly would be sensitive to the 27 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 comments that you've made about that.
Could you comment on this. I just thought of this, just sitting here, and the hearings are so interesting and you learn a lot. I'm wondering about self-imposed. How many people do body piercings themselves? In other words, if a person wanted to perform one of these themselves, they get the 800 tape, they learn, and they're going to do it to themselves, would this regulation -- do people -- I guess I'll ask you the question, do people ever do these to themselves?
I suppose there are individuals that would attempt to do this to yourself, but I would like to sit there for a second and think about sticking a needle through your body by yourself. It's a little tough to do.
Well, there's a lot of people that stick needles in their bodies. 28 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063
Well, you see, this -- you know, I'm sure there are people of that nature. I -- I don't know.
No, I don't, no. Being from New -- you know, the clientele that we have in our particular situation, these people would not even attempt doing that, but I'm sure it's being done in some places. You can buy a piercing kit, one single piercing kit a from a wholesale outlet, where it has all of the little instruments that you need to do one piercing, and I'm sure people buy these kits and they let their friends do it to them, or they do it to themselves, and I'm sure that does exist. But personally having information on that, I don't.
And that would be very difficult to regulate, what you just described.
Well, yes, it would be, but my background is being a hair stylist and -- prior to being a piercer. You know, you spend 29 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 $1200 on school, you take a State test, you got to be regulated by the Health Department, and you see somebody down the street cutting hair in their house, you start calling the Health Department because you've done all of these requirements and they're not. And with regulations -- I'm sure the people in this industry that are performing it correctly under these regulations wouldn't allow the local people to participate in that fashion.
Thank you. Any other questions? (No further questions.)
Thank you very much for your time. Is there anyone else here to testify on this bill? (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon. My name is Brett Mapp, M-A-P-P. I am a co-owner of Inferno Body Piercing, at 618-620 South Street. I'm also Chairman of Marketing for the South Street Headhouse Square District, and I'm the Community Liaison for Fresh Fields Whole Foods Market, at 30 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 929 South Street. Unfortunately, because of the Fat Tuesday, I did not have a chance to type up my testimony, but I'm here to offer my full support for the bill. I am a legitimate body piercing business that does not pierce anyone under the age of without parental scent. We actually have a 9 separate form for minors, besides our regular 10 form, and we ask that everyone who gets pierced in 11 our shop has to have a photo identification, which 12 we Xerox. Unfortunately, I cannot give this to 13 you 'cause I need this for my records. 14 We also have do have our own care form. 15 And we support this bill because this 16 bill will help us be a legitimate shop and give 17 legitimacy to a profession which, you know, we 18 feel strongly about. I do have a little reservations about the second part of the bill, only because it's a little vague, and it's hard to support regulations when we do not know what the regulations are going to be. But I am here to support the bill.
Thank you very 31 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 much. Would you like to testify?
Madam Chair, I just want to ask Mr. Brett a question. Thank you. How are you doing?
We've been seeing a lot of each other since yesterday, haven't we? Can't get fat in our position, right? 'Cause all we do is walk around, without eating. The forms that you've circulated, you made these form up yourself?
So it is not because of any regulation or anything like that, right?
Have you ever been able to share these with the Health Department?
I believe I have shared them with the Health Department, and most of the businesses that are here have forms like this.
I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page, that if 32 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 this is something that is acceptable to the Health Department, do we need to modify it in any way? I think this is the appropriate time to do that so that we can incorporate it into the regulations. It's a helpful piece of material, and that's what I'm suggesting that we make sure we do that before we leave.
Mr. Zipin -- I'm sorry. Mr. Zipin, you were nodding your head. Did you see the forms?
(Off-mic, not entirely audible.) Part of the regulation process will be to get everybody here together to review this. There may be something that's missing that somebody will point out, or perhaps they want this party to change it, but we intend to work on a consensus with the community in developing our regulations, and we see it as being the next step down the line.
Hi. My name is Bill Funk. I own Body Graphics Tattoo on South Street. I 33 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 also am a board member of the South Street Headhouse Square District. I do, in fact, support Part A of your bill, prohibiting any minors from getting tattooed or pierced. I believe, like you mentioned earlier, there is already an ordinance on the books that prohibits minors from being tattooed. I do not body-pierce in the City of Philadelphia or anywhere in the State of Pennsylvania. However, I do have an expertise in tattooing. I do not however, support Part B. Again, as Brett alluded to, I think it is extremely vague and may sort of unfairly impose restrictions that may be kind of costly to us. And as Environmental Service representatives and Health Department reps, Mr. Zipin and his associate, have testified, the problem is not with established business that you find in the City, because we are following certain standards that have been in place in the industry for many years. But, rather, the problem is with what we call bootleg operations, or anybody who's operating underground, whether in their house or 34 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 some non-established business or commercial location. Your bill is not really addressing the problem, because what you're doing, in fact, is imposing some regulations on people who are already doing what we need to do to make sure that services are provided in a safe and professional and healthy way. Okay, what you're doing is, you're imposing costs on us but, in fact, not addressing the true problem, which is, in fact, people operating out of their houses. From what I understand, the statistics being that there are an average of one complaint per month. So you're telling me that there's 12 complaints per year in the City of Philadelphia through the Health Department, and half of those are infections. I would estimate that 100 percent of those 12 cases are coming from places who are not licensed to operate a business in the City of Philadelphia; that they are, in fact, happening in somebody's kitchen, as I heard someone else testify, that a minor got pierced in someone's kitchen, with a dog running around. You are not going to stop that. That, 35 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 to me, is something that Licenses and Inspections should get involved in, whether it's our business or whether it's somebody performing oral surgery out of their kitchen. You know, I think that the problem there lies in, you know, making sure that these underground businesses do not exist, and if they are reported, that there is proper follow-up, proper enforcement, proper inspection. So that the true risk for the public is addressed and not missed.
Thank you. Could we ask Mr. Hirschhorn to come back from the Health Department and respond? (Mr. Hirschhorn returns to witness table.)
Could you address the concerns raised by the gentleman relative to -- I thought I heard you say that this bill would give you the teeth you need because there presently doesn't exist anything to allow the L&I Department to go into homes and stop this body piercing. Is that true?
The Department of 36 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 Licenses and Inspections relies on the Health Department when there are business or activities somehow involving the human body. So we generally -- those kinds of complaints are referred to us. And if they are operating in their own home, we do have the authority, under the nuisance provision of the Health Code, to issue orders to tell them to stop that. As I had mentioned before, what Bill 63 would also enable us to do is provide higher standards in general for the industry.
Could you explain. I think I know where you're going with this 'cause this is something similar to what we did with the horse carriage bill. We passed a bill, and then you came back later with the regulations that you suggested that the City impose. And just explain that briefly what the process is. If we pass the bill, which I understand these two gentlemen and the other gentleman said, is rather vague. The fact is, they don't understand what will happen next. The next step is to develop regulations that may not be as vague as the bill appears to be. 37 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063
Right. The regulations are already in their first-draft stage. The National Environmental Health Association, which has model regulations, has already reviewed ours and found theirs consistent with ours. We have contacted the national associations of the trade, and they have copies, and they have commented. The next step, now that we are this much further along the line, is to send out the draft to those in the Philadelphia community who have not already received them. Some of the businesses have been working with us already, developing these regulations. Now what we'll do is we'll send those to the 40 or so that we know to be legitimate and operating freely and openly. We'll send them copies and we'll ask them to comment and give us any suggestions or recommendations for any modifications. And those will be taken very seriously. We're doing the same process, as you mentioned, with the horse-carriage operators.
And since this is Councilman DiCicco's bill, he, I'm sure, will 38 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 monitor that process. Okay, any other questions? (No further questions.)
Thank you very much. Thank you for your testimony. Is there anyone else to testify on this bill? Is there anyone else to testify on this bill? (Witnesses come forward.)
My name is Meg Mass. I'm one of the co-owners of Infinite Body Piercing, at 626 South Fourth Street.
My name is Meg Mass, M-A-S-S, and I'm one of the co-owners of Infinite Body Piercing, at 626 South Fourth Street. I'm also a member of the Association of Professional Piercers, which is a national organization of professional piercers. We adhere to very strict guidelines as far as hygiene and training voluntarily. The APP was founded mainly, in fact, to deal with the issue of legislation nationwide. We have been 39 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 working for several years with various states and city and municipality governments to try and come up with regulations that are appropriate to our industry and that protect not only the health of the community but also of the industry. I have -- I can speak for the other piercers there at Infinite. We do fully support the idea of regulations. We do not pierce anyone under without personal consent already. We 11 have consent forms similar to the ones that Brett 12 has, from Inferno. 13 We pierce 16 and over with parental 14 consent, we are very strict -- 15
You have to speak 16 more slowly and into the mic. 17
We do require very stringent 18 proof of identification for both the piercee and the parents if someone is coming in with parental consent. So we are definitely in support of that part of the bill. We also support the idea of regulations in the industry in general, 'cause we have seen a lot of piercings, not only from people who are piercing out of their homes, but also from some 40 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 other shops that aren't as interested in keeping up guidelines as far as hygiene and training. So we would like to see some standards involved there. I have a few concerns as far as that goes, though. We need to make sure that piercing and tattooing industry professionals are involved in the regulations. As we've been talking about, as it stands, things are a little bit vague. As long as we're allowed to work with the people who are coming up with the regulations, that would be fine, but we need to make sure that these regulations are going to be adequate and appropriate to the industry. That's my first concern as long. As this is an open process, that would be fine. I also need to be assured that the costs of licensing and inspection are not going to be prohibitory to the industry itself. As Bill 21 was mentioning earlier, if the costs of this are too high, they can be driving the industry prices up, which is going to be taking people back into other people's homes and getting pierced for a cheaper product. So I'd want to make sure of 41 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 that. In California, this has already been a problem, and they're talking about several- thousand-dollar licensing and inspection fees, which is driving a lot of legitimate businesses out of the industry and allowing people who have money and not necessarily training or best intent to be operating. That's something of a concern. As far as regulating people in their homes, we've been talking as if there's no real way to see what is going on with businesses that are not legitimate that we can't find. In Columbus, Ohio, they have a system for fining businesses that are operating out of homes, garages, that sort of thing, because if someone is pierced in someone else's home, they're eventually going to need some jewelry and they're going to come into another shop. And at that point, another piercer will see the piercing they have, and they can see if there's a bad piercing going on, they can seen an infection, they can see scar tissue, that sort of thing. In Columbus, they have instituted mandatory -- I guess they call them "bad piercing 42 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. " If someone comes into my shop with an infection, a scar, a badly-placed piercing, what I have to do legally is say, Okay, where did you get pierced, who did this? Please tell me exactly what you perceive as having happened. And then I give my synopsis of what's going on as -- not being a medical practitioner but as a body piercing professional, explain what I see, and take a photo, if possible, and then submit that form to the Health Department. And then, even if these people are not in the phone book, you are going to start to see a number of complaints coming in at some random address, and that's going to help the Health Department to find people that otherwise would not be, you know, visible. So that's something that you might also want to be considered. There are ways to find these businesses. And one other comment. The earlier discussion about the risk of cross-contamination from people getting needles and piercing themselves at home. That's really not such an issue because what we're dealing here is cross- 43 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 contamination. People that are working on themselves at home, they're only dealing with one person so they're not going to contaminating themselves at all.
What we need to address is people that are getting, you know, that are working on the public or that are working on several friends or working various members of the public, whether it's going to be a high turnover and a lot of blood-borne contamination.
No. The only suggestion, Madam Chair, I would make -- and thank you for your comments -- is that you speak with the two gentlemen that are here from the Health Department. I'm sure they'll include you on the list of people because we want to be proactive here.
It's not, obviously, directed in any way to stymie your business or the legitimate business. I think it works well for everyone if we can come up with 44 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 something that addresses the issue of public health. In fact, it may even help your business if can weed out some of the other folks that are there. So I suggest you speak with the two gentlemen in the back before leave today. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Hi my. Name is Joanne (ph.), and I'm here as a mother. Back in December, my 14-year-old daughter came home with her naval pierced, without the permission of me or her father. I was horrified to find out that there are no 17 regulations against this, as far as people doing it in their homes and whatnot. I have an older daughter who I took to an established business and signed consent forms, showed my driver's license, I had to have proper ID for my daughter, and I knew this business. I had been in the business before and seen how it was operating and knew that it was a safe place to have her naval pierced. 45 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 When my other daughter came home without my permission, I had no idea what the deal was. This man is going by word of mouth throughout the high schools in the area. There's -- he -- and just anybody that shows up he will do. He's not charging what people in established businesses would charge; therefore, teenagers, they don't need their parents' permission and they don't need anything more than a night of babysitting money to afford this. So something needs to be done to stop these people.
And the business you're speaking to, have you made any complaints to anyone about it yet?
Oh, I've called everybody I could, I made police reports, I called --
Speak to the two gentlemen in the back, please, the gentlemen from the Health Department.
Somebody from the industry? Brett, you want to volunteer? Do you tattooing, Brett, also? Someone who does tattooing? Yeah, Bill? (Witness comes forward.)
Thank you. Could you please tell me about the indelibility, or whatever word you want to 47 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 describe. When a person comes in the first time and they have no tattoos at all, do you tell them -- do they realize that this tattoo is pretty much for life? Do they know that once they get one -- and I understand there's a way to get rid of them. The reason I'm interested in this, I had received a letter recently from someone that can't afford to get a tattoo removed. Do the people that come, especially when it's their first, know that this isn't something that you just can't and get taken away almost instantly?
I think you make a certain assumption about people's intelligence, but I would say yeah, over 90 percent at least would be intelligent enough to have the knowledge that this was a permanent change in their appearance and their body. Like you alluded to, the technology today has sort of reversed that, in the sense that they are removable, with some laser technology. It is very expensive, as you mentioned. So to answer your question, I would say yes, pretty much 99 percent of the population 48 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 realize that it is a permanent change in their body. In addition, if they don't -- if that assumption isn't already kind of made, we also have on our release form, similar to what Brett has turned in, the wording that that this is a permanent change in your body and that you do realize that. And they have to check each line that they read that they understand it. So, yes, we do go over that information with them, both verbally and in writing. We require them to sign it, that they understand the release form in the sense that they do realize that it's a permanent change. We do not, however, discuss laser removal or any type of removal with them at that time. And that also is in writing.
If a person who comes five years later to your business and asks for some guidance on getting something taken away, have you ever given that guidance?
Absolutely, absolutely. There's a doctor in Maryland, his name is Dr. Snyderman (ph.), and I think he is one of the 49 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 leaders in the industry for laser removal. We occasionally also refer people to the University of Pennsylvania, for instance. They also do some pretty nice laser removal work that I've seen.
Visible tattoos. Discrimination, employment. Tell me about a person who goes to a major corporation on a summer day, tattoos on their arms.
I think for the most part stereotypes have been dramatically broken down and kind of minimized. I think years ago, there were certain stigmas that were pretty much associated with a tattooed person. You know, I mean, historically, you know, you could go back in history and, you know, date it back to Constantine, the first holy Roman emperor, and he was the one who said that tattooing was going to be no longer acceptable in his kingdom, so to speak. But today, no, I don't think there are pretty much any stereotypes or stigmas that would prohibit or impede any one individual from gaining employment from any business, and I also would probably consider it to be unconstitutional to 50 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 have that kind of bias.
You'd be surprised to know that if there are certain companies that require an employee that has tattoos visible to wear long-sleeved shirts?
I believe that that wouldn't surprise me to have dress codes in certain business. I think there's probably many businesses that have dress codes, whether it's to present a certain image or to cover up a possible tattoo or scar or something else that might be, you know, viewed publicly.
So you would agree then that there are companies that might have in the summer a short-sleeved policy.
But the employee with tattoos from wrists to shoulder would be required to wear a long-sleeved shirt. That wouldn't surprise you?
It wouldn't surprise me that companies impose dress codes in their business practices. Whether or not they state for the record that the reason they're imposing those 51 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 dress codes is because you have a tattoo and they find it distasteful, or you have a scar on your arm and they find that distasteful, or you have too much hair on your arm and they find that distasteful. I would find that surprising if they would admit that publicly. I would not find surprising that they would have a dress code in their business, stating whatever, like you have to wear a suit and tie, you have to wear long sleeves, or you can't wear shorts. That wouldn't surprise me that any business in any state in the country might want to establish a dress code in their business for whatever reason. But, again, it would surprise me that they would state publicly that the reason they have that dress code is because they find your tattoos distasteful or they find the hair on your arm distasteful or they don't like a scar.
What if tattoo in itself was distasteful? What if it had vulgarity?
Then I would say that certain people or certain groups would probably be 52 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 offended, but it's not something that obviously I practice or most professionals in the industry would practice. But, again, that's why I'm kind of alluding towards the real root of the problem being not with established professional businesses who do have ethics and standards and do operate very professionally; it's the problem -- the problem lies with the people operating out of their houses who really need your attention, and that's where you should be focusing your efforts and your time and your money. Obviously, there are, you know, is a limited budget in the Health Department and with Licenses and Inspections, and if you're going to spend X-amount of dollars going after one a month, one complaint a month hypothetically, or maybe twelve cases a year, then I'd say you're misusing some public funds. But, you know, that's for you to decide.
It -- you're talk -- I just -- to end up, I'd like to talk about ethics for a minute, your professional ethics. If a customer came in and wanted a young -- what's the 53 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 minimum age that you can --
If an 18-year-old, 18th birthday, comes into your business and wants vulgarity tattooed, how would you deal with that?
We do not tattoo vulgarity on an 18-year-old or an 80-year-old. We do not provide tattooing that would be -- that would -- that would slander or, you know, have any malicious intent for any group of individuals. So it's not something that we practice, whether you were or whether you were 80. 14 You know, we do recommend that people 15 sort of do think about what they get. In other 16 words, if we do get an 18- or 19- or 20-year-old 17 who obviously -- and this is a common thing -- 18 come in and they want a loved one's name tattooed on their arm, well, obviously, you know, we're going to sort of try and guide them to the fact that they may, in fact, you know, this relationship may not exist beyond the length of their tattoo, that the tattoo may last forever but their relationships may not. (Laughter.) 54 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063
Or when you're out socially, you make sure that if you were dating a Debbie, you continue to ask that -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
That's right. Sometimes we provide T-shirts to that effect, "I'm looking for Debbie." But, you know, to address your ethics question, I think that most people, if they're going to consider themselves to be professionals in the industry, would have some ethics in that regard, and I think giving people the right advice -- in other words, there's many times that we turn away clientele because, number one, we may find that a profanity issue may come about and we don't really want to get involved in something like that, or we may advise them that they are maybe make a poor choice in doing something and perhaps they should think about it another day or two, or whatever the case may be. So, obviously, that sort of monetary gain is not 100 percent of our motivation. We still want our clients to be happy and, obviously, 55 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 to refer other clientele to your business. You know, and if you don't sort of, at least to a certain extent, portray a certain professional image and, you know, sort of display certain professional ethics, that you're not going to get that clientele. And, again, you know, if people are looking to do -- in other words, if a minor is looking to get tattooed or pierced today and they walk into an established business and they're turned away, like they other are, because of inappropriate age documents or they're not actually old enough, or whatever the case may be, they will find places underground, they will find places in their neighborhoods, in their friends' backyards, okay, that will provide this service for them. And, again, you know I think that is the real threat to the public health.
Thank you. I appreciate your coming here today. I learned a lot. Thanks.
Thank you very much. 56 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - BILL 000063 Is there anyone else to testify on this bill? Yes, Mr. Hirschhorn.
Madam Chair, I would just would like to reiterate for the members of the committee that this regulation development will be an open process. The members of the industry who have not already received drafts will receive drafts of the proposals. We will incorporate comments that they have. And also, as far as the licensing fees, Council has always admonished the City agencies to charge fees only to cover our costs. So I can't imagine how we would ever charge a $7,000 fee, for example. It's going to be for the operating fees, what it costs us to conduct an inspection, the 100 or $150, whatever it is. That's how we set our fees. And we're not trying to be prohibitive; we're just trying to make sure that people who are out there doing this, that there is a level playing field, that just as these gentlemen are professional operators, that they are not hindered by others who want to cut corners, not have the proper equipment, et cetera. That's the purpose. 57 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - PUBLIC MEETING Not to put anybody who's legitimate and trying to operate properly out of business. We certainly don't want to drive tattooing and body piercing underground. We want it to be legitimate under our supervision so that we can assure both the industry and the Health Department that people are not going to get blood-borne diseases or infections.
Thank you very much. We will now go into our public meeting. - - -
Do you gentlemen suggest a rules suspension, or it doesn't it matter? A suspension of the rules?
No? Okay, all right, thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that Bill No. 63 be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation. 58 2/28/01 PUB. HEALTH & HUM. SVCS. - PUBLIC MEETING (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and properly seconded that Bill 000063 be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation. All those in favor will signify by saying aye. Is there any opposition? (No opposition.)
There being none, the motion is carried. Thank you very much for your time. (Adjourned 4 o'clock p.m.) 59 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Wednesday, February 28, 2001, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES BILL NO. 000063 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter