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Committee Hearing, December 4, 2001

Philadelphia City Council Committee HearingsDec 4, 2001

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Isaiah Thomas
Jeffery Young Jr.

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE JOINT COUNCIL COMMITTEES PUBLIC SAFETY AND LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, 12/4/01 2:17 p.m. - - - RES. 010575 - Authorizing City Council's Public Safety and Legislative Oversight Committees to hold public hearings on the status and condition of the Philadelphia Fire Department's equipment and safety gear. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Angel Ortiz, Chair, Public Safety James F. Kenney, Chair, Legislative Oversight Darrell L. Clarke Blondell Reynolds Brown Donna Reed Miller Frank Rizzo - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT COMMITTEES INDEX WITNESSES FIRE DEPARTMENT Commissioner Harold Hairston.................. Captain Jack Maguire, Apparatus Officer....... 12 Deputy Fire Chief Andrew Rossini.............. 31 Chuck LeGradi, Facilities Maintenance.........100 LOCAL REPS 10 Thomas O'Drain, President..................... 71 11 Charles Sgrillo, Treasurer.................... 71 12 Andrew Cubbage, Vice President................ 71 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 3 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575

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Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. In light of the recent national tragedy of 9/11, I want to reiterate my constant gratitude and 4 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 the gratitude of this committee of City Council and the City to our firefighters for the risks that they take every day on behalf of Philadelphia citizens. I believe it is critical that the City must be there for our firefighters just as they have been there for us, and so the City must ensure that our firefighters have all of the necessary equipment, current equipment, to get their jobs done without unduly risking anyone's safety. I called for this hearing today because I have become concerned that the City may not be doing enough in this regard, and hope that we can get to the bottom of that and clear up some of the concerns that have been expressed recently. So I thank everyone for coming, and I appreciate your testimony. With that, I would like to ask Commissioner Hairston to come to give his testimony and to be available for questioning. (Witnesses come forward.)

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Councilman Kenney

Does everyone have copies of the Commissioner's testimony, the members of the committee? We had it beforehand and I thank the Commissioner for providing the testimony early 5 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 enough prior to the hearing. Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record. Commissioner, please identify yourself for the record. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes, I'm Harold Hairston, the Fire Commissioner for the City of Philadelphia. I'd like to say good afternoon to all you gentlemen.

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Councilman Kenney

Thank you. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Through my tenure, this department has worked diligently to provide the best apparatus, equipment, and safety gear available, and both the Rendell and Street administration responded positively to our efforts. Our apparatus fleet is good as I've seen anyplace around the country. Our first-line apparatus are in full compliance with NFPA 6 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 standards, with the exception of two older pieces whose open-cab design is the only standard exception. Our personal protective ensembles, which include turnout clothing, helmets, gloves, and protective hoods are constantly being evaluated so our members are provided with the safest protection possible. State-of-the-art contained breathing apparatus is now in use by our members, and everybody has individual masks. The Department provides relevant effective training on a year-round schedule, which allows all of our members to operate in danger environments effectively and safely. Some training initiatives of the Department are: Back To Basics, our curriculum of continuing education designed to enhance basic skills; our Rapid Intervention Training, which is a course designed to enhance survivability of firefighters on the fire grounds; and continuing medical education, a course that hones the skills of our emergency medical technicians. Specifications are being prepared as we speak for a new ventilation system in all of our apparatus areas to quickly and automatically expel 7 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 diesel exhaust. The Department initiated an Infectious Disease Control Office dedicated exclusively to the issue of infectious exposure to our members, staffed by a fully qualified, credentialed emergency medical professional, with seven years -- several years, rather, of experience in infection control, just to give examples of what's been done recently. The Aircraft Rescue Firefighting Unit assigned to the assigned by the Philadelphia Fire Department to Philadelphia's International Airport operates and maintains equipment and a fleet of apparatus specifically designed for response to and the mitigation of aircraft incidents and disasters. This unit is equipped with the latest state-of-the-art equipment and apparatus for this specialized area of emergency response. Many representatives of other major airports around the country and, in some cases, from overseas have either visited this unit to see this operation or have requested information on the equipment and operational procedures employed by us. The personal safety equipment issued to members assigned to this unit is appropriate to the 8 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 task and, in many cases, exceeds that of other airports. To get a better perspective from the operations level, my staff and I met with the executive board of Local to review the issues 7 that were important to them. They expressed four 8 areas of interest: 9 They would like a second set of bunker 10 gear, just the coats and the trousers. 11

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Councilman Ortiz

Excuse me, 12 Commissioner, could you explain what bunker gear is 13 other than coats and trousers? What does it do? 14 What is it? 15 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: It's gear 16 specifically designed to keep a firefighter safe 17 while he engages in structural firefighting. It's 18 the pants that you see people wearing on television 19 with the reflective stripes and the coats that are 20 meant to repel water and protect you from dangerous 21 environments, and it helps you to withstand the heat 22 from a fire.

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Councilman Ortiz

Okay. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Those sets cost about $960 apiece. 9 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 They would like to provide bunker gear cleaning service to clean their running gear. Their running gear is considered bunker gear. They would like a wellness and fitness committee to form and meet as soon as possible to work on these issues, and this has already been scheduled. They would like the City to resume the enforcement of existing civil service regulations on age restrictions for new recruits. Finally, our technical service and safety units are working continuously to research new equipment and ideas. The safety of our people has been, and continues to be, of paramount importance to me and my staff. And I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have.

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Councilman Kenney

That would be helpful. Thank you. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: It would be easier to deal with it that way. (See attached Philadelphia Fire Department Fact Sheet.) COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: There are 2 divisions, 11 battalions, 63 stations, 61 engine companies (Quint 69 is counted as a frontline engine), 29 ladder companies, 2 marine units, 40 medic units, 2127 uniformed firefighting personnel, 309 uniformed emergency medical service personnel. The specialized units include the heavy rescue unit, a hazardous materials unit, 3 Decon units --

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Councilman Kenney

Okay. And those NFPA standards, is there recommended life spans for particular pieces of apparatus? What would -- how old is old and at what age do they need to be considered to be replaced? CAPTAIN MAGUIRE: That's really a relative question. I mean, it depends on their use, it depends on the area they're located in, it depends on their construction. Many variables apply here. I think generally the range is -- and 15 to 20 years is generally accepted as the life span of the fire apparatus. 15 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575

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Councilman Kenney

Okay. And the life span expectancy is based on the manufacturer too who built the piece of equipment? Or is it just in general? I'll give you an example. We have, as far as I know -- and part of the purpose of this hearing is to clear up information that we may have that you guys will either confirm or dispel and give us the correct information so that we as the Public Safety and Legislative Oversight Committees and Council in general has a real idea of what the equipment's issues are facing the Fire Department, what we have, what we need, so that we can plan in the future when it comes to the issues of capital expenditures. CAPTAIN MAGUIRE: Sure.

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Councilman Kenney

And how does that 7 17-year number compare with -- or what's the 8 recommended life span of a C-grave pumper that was 9 purchased in 1984? 10 CAPTAIN MAGUIRE: Well, again, there's no 11 recommended life span, and it's really a guideline. 12 I mean, you can have a 1984 apparatus that has 13 hardly ever been used out in the middle of nowhere, 14 and it's like brand spanking new. 15 In the City of Philadelphia, it's a little 16 bit, it seems (inaudible). 17

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Councilman Ortiz

But I want to know in terms of what it does and does it do it better? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Let me try to 18 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 answer this for you. The older pieces did not have enclosed caps on them; that's the primary difference. The new newer pieces and our frontline pieces, with the exception of two, all have enclosed cabs. The older pieces that we've had around for a while do not have enclosed cabs. That's the real difference in them.

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Councilman Ortiz

So that's the only difference between one that is 17 years old, it has closed cabs? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, certainly it would not be the only difference. The example that he tried to use is the difference in a car that would be that old. There's a difference in suspension systems, there's a difference in the ride of it, a difference in the fact that we 19 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 air-condition pieces now, there's a difference in the comfort that's available, there's a difference in the way you sit in them, there's a difference in the way the compartments are formulated. We now have things that roll up and roll down. There's a big difference in looking at a modern apparatus that is brand new compared to one that is older.

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Councilman Kenney

Commissioner, in response to the initial questioning or in response to your testimony, you had said in your opinion, Philadelphia, compared to cities around the country, is, you know, right up there or ahead of many other cities in the country. I'm paraphrasing what you said but maybe you can elaborate on that. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Right, that was pretty good, that was a pretty good recollection of it. 25 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575

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Councilman Kenney

Thank you. Where have we -- what's the method of our comparison? How do we determine whether or not we are keeping pace, whether we're behind or ahead? Do we send people out to visit these fire departments, do se share information with them? How do we -- what is the standard with which we judge ourselves based on other cities like New York and -- obviously New York, sadly, is going to have to buy a lot of equipment recently. But I'm just curious as to how we judge our comparison with other cities. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Basically all of the above. It's a case where we're doing surveys constantly, where we call other cities to see what they're doing, to see the age of their fleet. We call generality the major cities. We allow our people to visit other cities. We send them to conferences, we send them to shows. Whenever we're about to take possession of an apparatus, almost invariably I'll get a phone call and am asked if we will allow our apparatus be in a show. We've become the standard in a lot of cases for certain types of features and that kind of 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 thing that we have on trucks. I don't know whether you realize it or not, but we spent close to -- over the last seven years, we've spent close to $25 million. We have about $6 million that's going to be spent over the next two years. Out of the 300 trucks and cars and vehicles that we have in our fleet, 199 of them have been replaced over the last seven years.

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Councilman Kenney

Have we had any outside consultant, outside recognized organization, through NFPA or otherwise, come in and do analysis of our department? Obviously, you know, we have experts within our department, people who are extremely competent and have been in the department for a long time and, frankly, know their business. It's always nice sometimes, though, to maybe get somebody from outside to come in and say, You know, you guys are really doing a good job. Have we had any outside consultation or examination of our fleet, of our personal safety gear, of all of that stuff that we want to provide, that all of us want to provide for our employees to be safe? Have we ever done that under your tenure? 27 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 And even prior to your tenure, have we ever done that kind of investigation? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I don't remember anybody ever inviting anybody in like that. What we do is allow our people to do that research, and wherever the research leads to, that's where it leads to. And whatever recommendations they put forth, we discuss them, and if they make sense and they're reasonable, we try to do them. We allow our people a lot of leeway in this regard. They are free to say whatever they want to say, they're free to -- I mean, you can call anybody that's among the group and you can ask them what steps they take to make the decisions that they make, and I think that they would give you what I would consider reasonable answers based on this. But do we have somebody that we trust that would -- where we would call up and then give them a contract for something that we already know? The answer to that is no. 22

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Councilman Kenney

I'm not suggesting we do that; I'm suggesting that from time to time in any large organization, despite the capabilities and qualifications of the people involved, it's always 28 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 nice to kind of double-check your figures, double-check your work, and maybe somebody could, you know, validate in fact that what our people are saying is in fact true and we're doubly sure that that's the case. I guess the concern is that despite what our own personnel may recommend, despite what they look at and what they study, we do live in the constraints of municipal finance and paying for the things that we need. Obviously we could go out and replace every piece of apparatus in our department, and would that be a reasonable thing to do considering the constraints of running a city government? Probably not. But I'm wondering whether or not in the formulation of the request for what we need, is it based in addition to what we need and also what we can afford? And does that sometime constrain our ability to request what we need? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I think the person that could probably answer that question better than me would be Reilly Harrison, who's in here, and if you want, I can have Jack move over or we can make a space for him, and he can come up here and tell you 29 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 what he goes through before he makes the final decision. He has the tendency to work very closely with us. His office works very closely with our people in terms of what we desire, what features we look for, and he can tell you, I'm sure, what steps that he's taken to ensure that our fleet is as good as I'm saying that it is. And I'm sure that Jack over here can tell you where he's been, what he's done in order to ensure that the information he gives to me or what suggestions me makes through his boss are, in fact, the best, in the best interests of the Department, its citizens, as well as for the safety of the individuals that we serve.

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Councilman Kenney

I mean, you know, I don't want to make any misunderstanding. This isn't a discussion, you know, about how many swing sets we buy the Recreation Department. I mean, obviously, you know, everybody's who's concerned about the safety of both the citizenry and the firefighting personnel, as all the people here who work for the Department are, I just want to make sure that we maybe have at sometime in our history some outside 30 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 validation that it in fact is true. But I intend to ask Mr. Harrison in a little while a couple other questions, so I'll hold them for now. My questions on this round of actual equipment is over and I'd be happy to have the chairman move on. But I do have some issues on -- I have some personal safety questions and, of course, we want to talk about the carbon monoxide issue in Manayunk.

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Councilman Ortiz

One question, Commissioner. Given the events of September 11th, obviously, that has put a brand-new face in terms of how fire departments in this country are going to be organized, 'cause nobody ever thought that something of that nature and insanity could ever happen. But how are we, in terms of equipment, prepared, your department for the brand-new things that are being mentioned in terms of germ warfare, in terms of biological and a bacteriological situation? In terms of equipment, how are you set up in order to handle instances of that type of nature? 31 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I'm going to invite Deputy Chief Andrew Rossini up to the table because he's a person who we have allowed to gain a tremendous amount of expertise, and he has a lot of experience, and he can tell you what we've done and how we have responded. And after that, I'll tell you about some of the things that we have talked about doing. And we do have plans to give ourselves more redundancy in certain areas. (Witness comes forward.) DEPUTY CHIEF ROSSINI: Good afternoon. As the Commissioner said, my name is Andrew Rossini. I'm a deputy chief with the Philadelphia Fire Department. I've been a deputy chief for 16 years this Saturday, and I have a total of 31 years of service.

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Councilman Kenney

Congratulations. DEPUTY CHIEF ROSSINI: Thank you. Some years ago, back in 1995, the federal government reached out to the local municipalities around the country and they put their primary emphasis on the 120 largest cities. At that time, the lead in that federal community was the 32 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 Department of Defense. There was also participation by FEMA, the Department of Justice, and the United States Public Health Service. What happened was, after a couple of conferences and other types of evaluation processes, some of which the local community fire service, fire departments were involved in, and some, they weren't, a plan was developed. The plan included training as a first step, general education of what the possible threats would be. And the reason the Department of Defense took the lead was because they were the people who knew the most about chemical warfare agents and biological warfare agents. So they contacted the city fathers and the Fire Commissioner and others, and I was designated to be a coordinator, and I was assigned to the Office of Emergency Management where we worked with the Department of Defense representatives. And in August of '97, we ran an extensive training program under the banner of the Office of Emergency Management. That training program -- and I apologize I don't have the total numbers with me, but that training program was a Train the Trainer initiative. 33 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 And what happened was, several hundred people -- 400 in the Fire Department alone -- went through the Train the Trainer Program so that could be better prepared to deal with a chemical or biological exposure. The emphasis is on chemical because it's something you can manage. At the end of that week, there was a table-top exercise where the city and federal and state agencies participated in a "what if," and the scenario, for your information, was a chemical release at the old Philadelphia Festival on Labor Day weekend. So after that portion of the program was concluded, we and other departments went ahead, and as it was titled "Train the Trainer," we reached out at the company level and we brought every officer and member of the Fire Department through the different training modules, depending upon their rank and their responsibilities. At the same time, the Department of Defense issued a $300,000 loan in kind, I guess, is what you would call it best. It was equipment that the fire community didn't have. Some of it actually wasn't authorized for civilian use until this 34 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 (indiscernible) managing program began. Simultaneous to that, the United States Public Health Service issued for Philadelphia a $350,000 grant. And with that money, we bought a considerable amount of pharmaceuticals, antidote kits for nerve agent attack and other similar equipment and devices. On the Department of Defense side of the house, we deployed a lot of equipment -- monitoring equipment and personal protective equipment for our personnel. Basically, there's a defensive mode and an offensive mode in which to operate, and what we tried to do is train all of the Fire Department personnel to recognize the possibility of a chemical agent. Depending on the signs and symptoms of the victims we find, they would don the appropriate protective equipment and be able to function in limited ways.

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Councilman Ortiz

Do we have enough equipment in hand to be able to handle the emergency that you just described? DEPUTY CHIEF ROSSINI: We have enough equipment on our trucks that every person on the scene should be able to put on a protective 35 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 ensemble, a combination of a chemical-type suit, a couple different levels, an SCBA, which is -- the primary protective factor in this environment is respiratory protection. So the SCBA, self-contained breathing apparatus, is our primary mechanism. At the hazardous materials level, we have much more extensive equipment, training, and personal protective equipment. We've also done something to support our hazardous materials team. In three locations around the City, we've identified engine companies and ladder companies that live in the same fire station and we've given them additional training and additional equipment, including decontamination equipment. Now, we didn't try to make those people hazardous-materials technicians, but we tried to train them so that they could do decontamination work, because the secret to defense against a particular chemical exposure is the rapid decontamination of the victims, because once you remove the victim from the agent -- or the other way around, then the effects begin to subside, and if the victim hasn't suffered a lethal concentration 36 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 already, there's a good chance of recovery.

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Councilman Ortiz

How do we go about, then, protecting the general population in terms of -- you see a problem, it happens, you have protective gear. Are there issues, then, of plans of evacuating or plans of just removing endangered population from basic areas? And do we have a plan that goes towards that in terms of bacteriological and chemical warfare? DEPUTY CHIEF ROSSINI: Well, let me start to speak about the chemical first. Many of our plans and the City's plans, not just the Fire Department, but many of the emergency plans are applicable for this; they deal with mass casualties, they deal with shelter in place, and they deal with evacuations. So we can apply any of those plans to the mechanism of a chemical attack.

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Councilman Ortiz

You bring your people, and they have all of the equipment necessary to start fighting. What are the other steps that are then taken to protect the general population? 37 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 DEPUTY CHIEF ROSSINI: Well, in the case of a chemical attack where we had a scene to manage, we would start out there in an evacuation or a shelter-in-place operation, or perhaps a combination. Chemical agents and naturally-occurring -- or, not naturally occurring, but industrial chemicals, in many instances, the best protections is to do a shelter in place, where you get the people who are occupying a building and shut down the ventilation systems, seal up the windows to the extent possible, and have them in a standby mode under proper management control, of course, until the hazard is abated or passes. Because to run them out of the building would perhaps be running them right into harm's way. So the incident commander on the scene of the emergency would have to make that assessment and decide whether or not to order an evacuation. If you order an evacuation, you have to take into consideration how much agent is in the air, how much chemical, what is the threat, how big is the threat, where you're going to move all of these people to, and how quickly they can moved. For example, a nursing home, it's a bigger challenge as far as 38 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 speed to move people. So we might apply a combination of shelter in place and evacuation.

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Councilman Ortiz

And we have equipment to be able to do that? DEPUTY CHIEF ROSSINI: Well, it's people fire people and, to a lesser extent, police people who would move the folks out of the way. And our mission would be to rescue those folks who are not mobile, are not under their own capabilities or ambulatory, and that's part of the fundamental training. You sort the ambulatory from the non-ambulatory and then you take the effort to treat and decontaminate the non-ambulatory.

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Councilman Kenney

Okay, could you 39 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 explain what they are? DEPUTY CHIEF ROSSINI: Well, we have several testing devices, and I don't work with them every day and I'm not familiar with the mechanics. But there are several different monitoring-type devices. There's a thing called an ADP 2000, there's drug and chemical testing sets. And our haz. mat. technicians are trained and qualified to use these devices so that they can get readings on what type of agent it is and what the concentrations are. To be perfectly complete in my answer, that takes time. So what we rely on is the fundamental training that the military has used for all the years they've been preparing for chemical warfare. And that is what we simply refer to as "signs and symptoms." If we see people who are exhibiting the signs and symptoms of a nerve agent attack, that triggers us into going into this kind of an operation. And then we supplement and back that up, our decision, by doing testing and monitoring and things of that nature. There's some real basic stuff such as an M9 tape, which you can put on -- almost like taking 40 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 duct tape and turning it inside out,and you put it around the sleeves of your turnout gear, you put a strip on the fire truck -- there's a lot of things that you can do with it -- and if that changes colors, that's an indication. It's not proof-positive because you can get false readings, but it's an indication that there may be a nerve agent and we should step carefully.

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Councilman Ortiz

We saw the aspect, obviously, of the Twin Towers, which nobody can measure because the heat there was -- but if a terrorist act happens in one of our high-rises, heaven forbid, one of our tall ones, how are we prepared to fight it? Are we much better prepared 41 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 to fight it than we were years ago with the Mellon Bank? And we have taller buildings today. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: First of all, there was a lot that happened in that particular fire.

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Councilman Ortiz

Right. 8 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Whatever could go 9 wrong did go wrong, including a delay in 10 transferring the alarm from the building to the Fire Department, so that's the first thing. There were a whole series of things that went wrong with the situations in a building. When a building gets to be 75 feet above the Fire Department's vehicle access, it's considered a high-rise building, which means that you have to depend on the systems within the building. The emergency lighting did not work because the generator that was supposed to supply those lights did not kick over. The stand pipes were restricted because they had restricting devices on each of the stand pipe outlets. They were improperly set from the time that they were installed. And so there were a whole series of things that happened in that particular building 42 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 that are not likely to happen in other buildings. From that, we changed the code, the Bill 4 1466, which gave people roughly eight years to come into compliance with the changes in the high-rise code, which calls for all buildings above the Fire Department's vehicle access to be sprinklered, with the exception of residential occupancies. So that time has passed. Those buildings should, in fact, be sprinklered and they should have the proper firefighting equipment inside. And there are procedures that we go through as well as Licenses and Inspections -- when I say "we," I mean the City -- go through to ensure that those buildings are safer. You have to depend on the building itself. Every building that is of that height has to get an approval for their evacuation plans from the Fire Department. So the persons that occupy those buildings should know what that plan is. That, coupled with the changes that we made, because we did make some changes in our procedure, are primarily to put more people on the scene in the event that there was an alarm that could be confirmed. And it made our life easier, I will say, 43 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 in terms of how we fight fires in high-rise buildings. Because of that, we've had great experience in doing that. Now, whenever there's a major event, whether in this city or in another city, other cities come to us if we had the major event, we go to them if they had the major event, we talk to them, we talk about the lessons learned, we send people to make sure that we get the best of what can be learned from that, and then we alter our procedures in order to reflect those changes. So could somebody put a bomb in a building and blow it up and totally disable the system? Yeah, but that's a security measure. If a fire happens in the building, this force is as well trained as anybody anyplace in this country to go in and extinguish that fire. But we do, in fact, depend on the systems to operate correctly.

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Councilman Kenney

Just one comment. I think part of the purpose of this hearing -- and I don't want to mislead anyone. This is not an issue of discussion of the training of our firefighters; I don't find any problem with our training. This is 44 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 an issue as to whether or not we, in fact, have enough equipment and apparatus and other type of protective gear to ensure the safety of them and the safety of the public. I mean, I would be the first to argue with anyone that this city is any less or less better trained than other city in the country. And I don't think that our -- obviously, our firefighters are no less brave than any other city in the country, probably more so. But the issue for this particular hearing is whether or not there's enough equipment, whether the equipment we have is of sufficient age to be as safe and effective as possible. And I'll reiterate my concern, which is that when we talk about running big cities with issues of health needs and safety needs and recreation needs and education needs, we want to make sure that the issues of safety for our firefighters do not get caught up in all the other decisions that are necessary to be made in the fiscal constraints surrounding the running of any municipal government. I have contended from day one that firefighters and police officers are basically our soldiers in the field, and we don't scrimp as a 45 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 federal government on the equipment that's necessary to keep them safe and effective, and we just want to determine, as far as my purpose of this committee's hearing, is to determine whether or not we in fact are there on equipment and safety gear, where we could be if we needed to be better, and how much that's going to cost outside the scope of what we need to be concerned about with running all of the other departments of the City. So it's not an issue of training, it's not an issue of any of that or bravery or any of that. What it is, is: Do we have enough equipment? is it too old or is it fine? and what's the result of that investigation? And that's the purpose that I had in mind.

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Councilman Kenney

Frank? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Let me just make a comment about that. First of all, I thank you for your concern. Secondly, if someone asked me a question, I have a need to give them what I would consider a complete answer. So if a person asked me about how we would fight a high-rise building fire, I felt it 46 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 necessary, just to make me feel better, that I have given him a complete answer.

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Councilman Rizzo

Commissioner, we touched on this earlier when you explained that the difference between the frontline equipment and the fact that that's our newer equipment and our reserve equipment. I just want to be real direct on this question. If a reserve piece of equipment is replacing a frontline piece that might be in for maintenance -- and by the way, I have friends that are firefighters from other cities, from some of our volunteer companies. The meticulous maintenance that Fleet Management provides our equipment in the life extension program is commended. And obviously it's 47 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 not recognized by my eye, but it's recognized by people that are firefighters. And one person made the point that they saw that we had some older equipment and couldn't believe, by looking at it and looking at the systems that we're on -- they were at the scene of a fire and just happened to be observing some of the equipment. So I think Fleet Management does a great job for the Fire Department in maintaining and keeping this equipment. My question is, when we have that reserve piece of equipment replacing a frontline equipment, are the citizens of Philadelphia any less protected? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I don't think so.

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Councilman Rizzo

You don't think so? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: No, because of the way we operate and because of the condition of that equipment. I can't think of one fire that I've ever responded to or heard about that occurred on my watch that indicated that -- whether it was a reserve piece of equipment or not, unless it was a 48 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 total breakdown of the equipment, and that's possible, whether or not something is 2001 or whether or not it's years old -- that would have 5 had a negative outcome based on the age of that 6 particular equipment. 7

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Councilman Rizzo

Maybe this 2002 piece 17 of apparatus has the ability to deliver a certain 18 amount of water, but if we have two or three working 19 together, we make up for that little bit of a lag 20 that that one piece of equipment -- am I on the right track here that -- COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, the fact of the matter is that we're just very, very fortunate in Philadelphia. I mean, that's the fact of it. We've got a good fleet, the fleet works, a lot of it 49 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 is new, or relatively new. We've got over 25,000 fire hydrants, which is rare, if you were to go to the suburbs or in other communities. You have a system where you have more than one vehicle responding. We have a lot of redundancy in our system. And because of that and because of the training and all of the other things and the equipment that we have, we're very fortunate. And so we don't have a lot of the problems that other people might have.

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Councilman Rizzo

Do you ever think, Commissioner, we'll be to the point where some of this reserve equipment may, based on attrition, may become a newer reserve fleet than we presently have? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: There's just no 17 question about that. I mean, you just don't keep old equipment for the sake of keeping it; you cycle it out at some point. You got to remember that we went through over the last decade or so -- or I'll say in the decade before this, when the City was getting poorer and poorer and there wasn't a whole lot of money that was coming into the Fire Department. But over the last seven years, there were $25 million spent 50 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 on this type of equipment. I don't mean self-contained breathing apparatus and personal safety equipment and that kind of thing; we've spent literally millions on that kind of stuff too. But a lot of money was spent. Now, we have equipment that has gotten older. Every year, the equipment gets older. As equipment gets older, its useful life diminishes; there's no question about that. But as that happens and if we continue to purchase at the same rate that we have purchased in the past, we will continue to have a fleet that you can be proud of.

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Councilman Rizzo

But my last question is, and I don't want it to sound like a Hollywood question, but based on some of the things that we've seen occur lately, high-rise fires, have you and the Philadelphia Police Department's Aviation Unit, is it Hollywood to suggest -- and I don't think I -- I think I've seen rescues done by helicopter. If we had firefighters trapped on the roof of a building, are we prepared to rescue with our police aviation 51 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 helicopters our firefighters or even citizens that might be -- COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, let's pray that we don't have anything like that. I mean, what we recommend is --

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Councilman Rizzo

But in your business, you have to be on prayer. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, let me say this. I explained this -- I don't know anybody was paying much attention to it or not, but I'm going to try this again in a different way. What we do in the Fire Department is try to train our citizens just as we train ourselves, and one of the ways that we do that is that every high-rise building gets an evacuation plan. It tells the people who occupy that building what they're supposed to do -- whether it's a three-floor hold, whether or not you do you what we call "dump the building" or whether or not you shelter in place, just for a lack of a better term. We tell the people what to do in the event of a fire. We can take over the alarm system where we can tell people what we want them to do. We don't want people going up on the roof. 52 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 If you have to go up on the roof, I hope it's a firefighter that goes up there only to open the hatch and then get out. Because we train people to go down and out; that's how you get out. And all of that Hollywood stuff ought to be left in Hollywood, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, it's not a good idea and not a good idea to go into the roof; it changes the air currents, it changes all kinds of other things, and plus you can't see.

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Councilman Rizzo

Well, I've seen a lot of pictures on television -- I think in Las Vegas -- of people being saved by police helicopters, so that's not Hollywood. I'm asking you a simple question. If a firefighter is stuck on the roof of a building, do we have the ability to rescue him with two very 53 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 expensive police helicopters that we have right now? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I think it's the most dangerous thing that you could do.

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Councilman Rizzo

Commissioner, I want to be real-life now. Again, I don't want to beat this to death. I'm just telling you that I have seen news accounts regularly on television where the news media, untrained, have made rescues by helicopter in a river, but I'm talking more so people that don't know the rules, where there's a fire below them and 54 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 they're frightened and go to the roof of a Center City Philadelphia building. All I'm asking you -- if it's a bad idea, then I respect your opinion here, but if it's just an opinion, and there hasn't been any coordination between the Philadelphia Police Department and the Fire Department to rescue a person that may die on the top of a building or jump like they did in New York, and they said it was just a sickening sight to see people jumping to their death, and that was obviously a situation far beyond what I'm trying to describe here. I'm talking about a building that's on fire, involved in a lot of fire, and they're up on the roof. Maybe they can wait it out, I don't know. But I don't think it would be a bad idea to talk to the Police Department to see if it's practical -- maybe the pilots would agree with you and say it's not safe to do, but I don't think it's a bad idea at least to check it out. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I don't think I can give you a satisfactory answer so what I'm going to do is, I'm going to ask the ladies and gentlemen over here if they want to try to express it perhaps in different terms because I'm in total disagreement 55 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 with you. I think it's too dangerous.

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Councilman Kenney

Councilmember Miller had indicated she had a follow-up question, but just one issue I wanted to raise relative to the police air tack units. I am aware that they are equipped with heat-sensored equipment, which would allow on the face of the building from the outside to determine areas of hot spots and cool spots that would allow, through radio contact with officers and firefighters inside a building or with people, to be able to show them an area to get out that's less hot in other areas of the building. So I know that there are some firefighting-related and safety-related issues on Air Tack and Air Tack that would allow for that. That doesn't answer your question, but there are some opportunities for coordination 56 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 between police and fire on the scene. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: You're absolutely right about that, there are some opportunities for that. I just didn't consider the one that was being presented to me one of those opportunities, but you certainly remember the pier incident.

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Councilman Kenney

Yes. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: And if you remember the pictures from that, the police were certainly poised up there and supplied good lighting to us, and they've done it on I don't know how many cases but an awful lot of cases, and so they've been a big help certainly on fire grounds in helping us coordinate, but primarily in lighting things up and that kind of thing, they've been a big help. And I would suggest that they will continue to be a big help.

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Councilwoman Miller

Yes, good afternoon, Commissioner. This is a follow-up question to Councilman Rizzo and just a question based on your response of evacuation plans for high-rises. I've worked here in City Hall now for six years just about, and I 57 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 don't think anyone has ever told me about an evacuation plan for City Hall. Does one exist, do you know? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Sure, one does exist. And they have a person by the name of Terry Sweeney that works for the City who is responsible for this building, for the building at Municipal Services Building and other buildings and so forth, and he certainly has copies of those plans, and there are copies of those plans right in this building.

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Councilwoman Miller

Okay. It's my understanding there was a training -- and I may have missed it -- for people here in City Council. I just wasn't -- I probably wasn't here. I have a daughter that's been in the hospital, so I may have been out during that time. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, see, the same thing that happened to you is the same thing 58 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 that happens to us all the time when we go to a building because you can never ensure that the same people are going to be working in a particular building that you go to. And hopefully, everybody has gotten the word. But we continue to work with building owners and building managers to the degree that we can to make sure that we give them proper information so that they will be able to pass it onto employees, and some people do a wonderful job of that and other ones don't do such a wonderful job. The bit problem comes in, very frankly, when you get new employees that come in, and they generally don't want to go through some big training session for one or two persons, and so over the period of time, there can be several people who never got the word. But we try to lay it out in such a way that we have floor captains, we have people that utilize the building regularly who can expect to be there. So that in the event of any emergency, that they would help point some of these things out. And very frankly, it works very well, as a general rule. 59 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575

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Councilman Kenney

I'm on the third floor and it's not me. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, you might want to talk to Terry because it's really the building manager's responsibility to do those things. And what the Fire Department does is, we okay the plans after they have really been drawn up by other people. We don't go in and tell you how to do this. We either okay your plans and make suggestions to it, and we won't sign off on them unless we think it's a reasonable plan.

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Councilwoman Miller

Well, then maybe you need to revisit the plan or double-check it. 60 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: What I'm suggesting to you is that responsibility is for the building manager. His name is Terry Sweeney, and he works for the Department of Public Property, and that's really his responsibility to make sure that you get a copy of that plan, should you desire, and to make sure that he takes you through whatever is necessary in order for you to feel safe. That's really what his job is, and that's what the building managers in any of these high-rise buildings, that's their job. That's what they're supposed to do. And what we do is to try ensure that the instructions that they give you are in the best interests of you and in the best interests of the Fire Department, 'cause you got to remember, in the event of a real emergency, we have to come in, we would then be responsible for the evacuation. Hopefully, you've done it in accordance with the plan that we've signed off on, and then we can proceed to go in and fight the fire with minimum strain on you and minimal strain on your department in terms of having to go around and continue to look for people, although we do continue to look for people to make sure that they get evacuated 61 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 properly. That's the way the system is set up and that's the way it works.

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Councilwoman Miller

Well, thank you for the information. I didn't have the information. I've been here six years and never heard of an evacuation plan. And I know a couple years ago when we kept having those fires and people were setting fires, no one really concentrated on an evacuation plan. During one of those sessions, I had about 100 older adults here for a Council resolution 13 presentation who -- many of them were disabled, and we had to figure out a way and find people to help us get those individuals from this 4th floor on Council day, which is a whole different set of circumstances than during the regular business day. We had to figure out how to get some of those people from the 4th floor to the 1st floor. So I think it's important that we do have adequate information, and you can't assume that we get it, 'cause we do not get it. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I'll make a recommendation to you or I'll make an offer to you. John McGrath, who is one of my deputies over here, 62 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 is also in charge of the Fire Prevention Division, and you can talk to John or you can talk to the person that's in charge of our Fire Prevention Division. I'm sure that he will be happy to set up appropriate training so that you feel comforted. 'Cause I want you to feel comforted, I want everybody that occupies this building to feel comforted. Because, very frankly, if you're not, we're not doing everything that we ought to do. So we could make a special case of training anybody that needs to be trained here. I think our people ave very good at that, and I think that you shouldn't go through that kind of worry. But I will say this, though: In any particular case where the Fire Department responds, all of our people are trained to the degree that they should be able to make a decision as to what equipment is needed and what personnel are needed. And in my history with the Fire Department, which is 37 years, I've never seen anybody complain that somebody called for too much equipment or too much personnel. And so we'll do whatever we have to do to make sure that people are safe. 63 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575

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Councilman Kenney

Councilmember Reynolds Brown has a couple questions, and after her, what we'd like to do is allow Local representatives of 6 the firefighters themselves to come and give 7 testimony, and I have some other questions on some 8 personal safety equipment. 9 And, Commissioner, if it's a time issue, 10 you can assign somebody to stay for you; if you want 11 to stay yourself, it would be great. But if you, 12 you know, want to leave people to respond to 13 questions, then that would be fine too. That's your 14 decision at the time, considering how long we go 15 into this. 16 So the Chair recognizes Councilwoman 17 Reynolds Brown. 18

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Councilwoman Reynolds Brown

Well, then there may not have been adequate time to address, respond to, plan for the issues they raised on 3. Can you just speak to it, if you will, where you are in terms of addressing their specific issues? And that's even if you've had an opportunity, given the short -- COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, I said at the time of our meeting what I was asking of them was an opportunity for me to present their request to my bosses and for us to have an opportunity to go through a process by which we would examine this and examine the best way for to us deal with it. And we're in the process of doing that as we speak

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Councilman Kenney

And can I just add an addendum to that question? 'cause there was a lot of questions I had later on. That the Administration's request was to cut each department a certain percentage, and I'm wondering if you could be more specific in your answer as to what areas of service or personnel or other areas that may be considered as a potential cut in the event that that Mayor's request needs to be followed on for real. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We were asked to respond as other City departments were asked to respond. And the way I took that question was, how would you deal with a given number in terms of -- if you had, in our case, $10.4 million. And we sent that information in, saying if we were forced to do that, that's what would happen. But as you may remember, that was before September the 11th.

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Councilwoman Reynolds Brown

Hmm. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: And since September the 11th, we have not had any further discussions about any other kinds of cuts or anything like that. That's not to say that it won't 66 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 happen, but we haven't had any other discussions about it. What we have discussed internally is ways that we could build in some kind of redundancy so that we would have more capabilities than we presently have.

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Councilman Kenney

Could we get some examples? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I would prefer not to get into the examples because, you know, everything was up for grabs. If somebody forces you and takes that kind of money off you, which you don't want to have happen, and you're told to do that, you simply respond based on what their response is. Every one of those responses would affect neighborhood fire protection in some way. 67 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 So there's really no need for me to have rocks thrown at me as I walk through some neighborhood because I had said if I had to cut one this is the one that I would cut. So I would prefer not to answer that question based on that, unless we're actually forced to do it. If we are forced to do it, then we'll do it with -- I guess we'll do it

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Councilman Kenney

I just want to make sure that we understand what I think the relationship is with this Council, the Administration, and the departments that we all serve. This, to me, is a $3 million or so company that is run by a chief executive officer, who's the mayor, and there's a board of directors that are elected by the shareholders, who are the citizens, to also help in the operation of this company, which the main purpose of the company is public service 68 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 and citizen retention. So I think that, you know, while I recognize your reticence and the reasons why you wouldn't want to answer the question. You can also understand why the Chair and members of the Public Safety Committee and the Chair and members of the Legislative Oversight Committee who are members of the board of directors of this company would be interested in knowing, not only from the Fire Department, but from the Police Department, the Library, the Recreation Department, you know, and I'm sure all of these questions will come up during our budget process. But the public's business -- and I'm not lecturing you, but the public's business should be public. And with so many issues facing this city, for some reason or another, there seems to be this reticence to share information with both the elected officials who represent the public and the public themselves. So I'm sure you can understand why I won't insist that you answer this question today, but I'm sure you can understand why members of this Council get a little bit concerned and a little bit worried 69 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 when the people who are charged with helping to run this company, the City, are kept -- information is kept from them on a regular basis. So that's an editorial comment and I don't need you to respond, but I am sure that perhaps you and other departments should be prepared this budget cycle to be a little more in depth in your answers. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I'll be prepared.

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Councilwoman Reynolds Brown

The only 70 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 editorial comment, personal commentary I would like to add is -- and I say this in no way to pander to you; I say it with strict sincerity to the leadership and your team of professionals, that September 11th, I join the many Philadelphians and Americans across the country where September 11th just heightened my, at that time, surface, but now deeper awareness of the awesome responsibility that you have to the citizens. And I simply commend the work that do you here and others across the country who have an awesome responsibility. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, I've been very fortunate. I have what I consider the finest group of men and women in any department anyplace in this nation.

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Councilman Kenney

Thank you very much I would like to take the opportunity now to ask the representatives of Local to please 21 take the witness table and proceed with their 22 testimony. Mr. Hairston, either you or any of your staff who want to stay will be helpful in the event that we have some specific rebuttal or response that 71 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 we need to make relative to any other testimony that we're having from now on forward. (Witnesses come forward.)

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Mr. O'Drain

First of all, I'd like to apologize. I didn't have too much time to prepare 72 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 for these hearings so I didn't offer any written testimony, but we have a number of issues that we feel we need to bring out into the public light. First of all, I don't know whether people in this room are aware or not, but the Mayor refuses to honor our contract. We still have pieces of our contract that were won in impartial arbitration that the Mayor just refuses to honor. And for me, that's a big moral issue with my members. They feel as though they have nowhere to go. That is our -- Act 111 binding arbitration is the process that we have to negotiate fairly with our bosses. We are prohibited from going on strike, and it's really lowered the moral of the members of the Philadelphia Fire Department. And I don't know if you, Council, can do anything to make the Mayor enforce it; I wish you would if you can.

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Councilman Kenney

So noted, as we have been trying additionally. I think I would add that the frustration, in addition to the moral issue and the unfairness of the ignorance of Act 111, is that taxpayers' money is being used by the Law Department to hire outside counsel to fight this thing in the courts, which I think is even doubly insulting, but 73 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 we've had that discussion in the past and I'm sure we'll have it in the future, but anything you can add to or offer to us as insight as to your opinion and the opinion of your membership relative to the issues of equipment and protective safety issues would be a big help for us today.

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Mr. O'Drain

First of all, I'd like to commend Commissioner Hairston and his staff. Since September 11th, there has been an open dialogue between Local and the Commissioner. And a number 12 of the issues that he spoke about today we did talk 13 about -- that meeting was last week. But there are 14 a number of other issues that we feel that we didn't 15 discuss with the Commissioner but I feel would add 16 to the safety of the citizens of Philadelphia and 17 the firefighters of Philadelphia. We sat down this 18 morning and just made up a quick list. 19 In the area of staffing, Center City 20 engine companies should be manned by a lieutenant 21 and four firefighters. Currently they are manned by 22 a lieutenant and three. In the high-hazard high-rise district, you need to have that extra manpower to be able to -- you know, when you have a high-rise fire, we have to go up the steps and we're 74 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 carrying all of this equipment with us and we need that extra guy to be able to carry the equipment. The NFPA standards recommend that.

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Mr. O'Drain

There are other pieces of 11 equipment that we could get that I feel would be 12 good for us and the citizens of Philadelphia. 13 There's a piece of equipment out there called "The 14 Iris." It's a helmet-mounted -- it's military 15 technology, and what it does is, it allows 16 firefighters to see through smoke. If I had more 17 time, like I said, I would have brought a 18 demonstration for you so that you would be able to 19 see it in action. 20

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Mr. O'Drain

And an example of what -- like what happened up in New York City, when you 76 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 have people buried through rubble, the Iris would allow firefighters to be able to see, you know, the heat of people's bodies, and they would be able to locate them immediately. A few years back, we had a building collapse where we had two firefighters trapped. One guy was severely burned and the other guy was brain-damaged, but if they were able to get in there, you know, with the Iris, one firefighter wearing that, they would be able to see where those guys were immediately, and wouldn't have to dig all around looking for them.

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Councilman Kenney

We need to talk a 77 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 little bit about the reliability of the apparatus, the age, replacement parts, delays in replacement, anything that you think would deal with the issue of engine and ladder company equipment, and what the goal of this is, is to try to determine our standing and situation relative to our equipment. And then during the next budget process, which we are going to begin after January, to be able to have the information necessary to make recommendations, that we purchase what we need to get ourselves up to speed; and if we're up to speed already, we need to know that. But I need a little bit of information and some dialogue from you guys about what your concerns are as a result of the people -- as the people who use it every day, you know, what experiences we're having there with the condition and age and reliability of our equipment.

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Mr. Sgrillo

Charles Sgrillo, Treasurer of Local 22. I, too, agree with Tommy on the point that 79 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 as far as the apparatus, I know from our end that somebody's still driving them. I broke in on '84 C-graves, that was my first piece that I broke in on. And now we have a KME, which we lost last year in an accident. But the difference between driving the two apparatus is, you know, a world apart. I mean, the braking, the pumping, and the handling of that apparatus is so much more modern today than it is, and I just had an incident where just three days ago, we had -- our piece went down for a couple hours, and we have a 100 series at our station, which we had to run for a couple hours, and that's an '84 C-graves. The enclosed cab portion is a safety issue, but just the handling of the truck, it's just totally different. Anything the '84s and the E1s, they just don't handle, and on the turning rate, they don't -- firemen don't like them. If you're asking the guys actually driving them, you know, they're not -- you know, they were what were bought, that's what we use and, you know, they put the fires out, but we could use probably, I would say, about 20 new pumpers, but I don't believe that's the guys 80 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 behind us call, that's a budgetary thing. If we could get new trucks, they'd take 'em tomorrow. 4

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Councilman Kenney

In my opinion, I don't 5 think there's any doubt that the people who 6 testified earlier would want all of the appropriate 7 equipment that's available. 8 And while I understand the constraints as 9 part of management that they are, they're unable 10 sometimes to say exactly in this public forum what 11 it is they would require or need, and that's why I 12 think the purpose of this committee is to try and 13 weed through that a little bit. While I don't 14 dismiss what they're saying, I agree that they're 15 being truthful in their comments, that they believe 16 that based on what we have, we're doing the best we 17 can. 18 But the question is, can we do better, do 19 we deserve to do better, and this should be one of 20 the City's main priorities in doing better as 21 opposed to some of the other things we spend money 22 on on a regular basis. So it's a matter of 23 prioritization and it's also a matter of gathering 24 information that we need in effect to create these 25 priorities, which will make you safer, us safer, and 81 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 the people we represent much safer. But as far as this -- what I'd like to get from you guys are some specifics in addition to what has already been said, not only about the actual ladders and engines, but other personal safety equipment and other types of things that have been problematic in the past.

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Mr. O'Drain

Well, as the Commissioner said earlier, we did have a meeting last week. One of our big concerns was the bunker gear, that we didn't have an extra set, and that's being addressed now. And the reason we do need that extra set is because when they get wet, you may end up in another fire in the same night, and the gear itself has been known to -- the water inside will turn into steam and actually cook the firefighter inside of it. And that's been a concern of ours for quite number of years now.

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Mr. Cubbage

The bunker gear issue, we get detailed from one station to another, and that's a common occurrence of the Fire Department. It's not a -- it's so common that as an officer, you keep a list of all the stations that your members are detailed to so that everybody gets detailed the same amount of times over the course of a year. Every time you get detailed, you take your bunker gear with you. Now, if you're using a family car, your bunker gear goes into the family car.

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Councilman Ortiz

Mr. Chairman, if I may follow up. If you guys -- if you may put together for us in terms of -- because we're talking about equipment, what is needed, what is presently there, what shape it's in, is it state-of-the-art, and does it need to be replaced. I would like, as comparison to have for the committee, a whole listing of equipment of all of the things that we've mentioned so far and your perception of the state of that system, the state of 85 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 that machine, the state of the truck, whatever it is that we have, and whether in your opinion and expert consideration, it should be replaced and why it should be replaced. And if you could do that in writing for us, I would really appreciate to have that so that we can compare the state of our equipment in the present situation. Can you do that?

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Councilwoman Reynolds Brown

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Recognizing that nothing is a hundred percent, I'm of the view that progress is always incremental, if you had to look a year ago or two years ago or maybe at the last time of your contract, there were two or three top priorities. What has been the outcome of those two or three top priorities? Addressed, not addressed, improvement, no improvement? So that we have a balanced picture of what was and where we want to go for the future.

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Mr. O'Drain

It's like mechanics that work in garages, they have equipment that will suck out the exhaust and put it to the outside. We never had this in firehouses. We presented a package from the arbitrator, and he ruled in our favor. And currently, from what I understand from the Commissioner, that that is being addressed. You know, it's going to be a costly item, but they're headed in the right direction, which I think is good. We have problems with wellness and fitness

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Mr. O'Drain

And, you know, right now, we're hiring guys that are 59 years old. You know, this is a young man's job, and you shouldn't be hiring firefighters that are that old. And we've 87 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 been talking about that, and there's probably help that you guys could give us in that respect. As far as -- Congress, a few years ago, agreed with the International Association of Firefighters that there should be a hiring exemption for firefighters. In other words, they have anti-discrimination where you can hire people that are too old. They gave the fire departments and police departments exemptions, and the City of Philadelphia never enforced that. Years ago, the hiring limit was 32 years old.

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Councilman Kenney

Well, it's also a lack of integrity that people who are moving from one City department to another in order to take 88 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 advantage of a more lucrative pension system that they didn't earn. What happens is, you have people who work in various departments in the City that are non-public safety related and spend 20, years in 6 that department or 23 years and decide they want to 7 become a police officer or a firefighter for a year 8 or two, or even worse, two months out of the 9 Academy, then retire with a firefighter or a police 10 officer's pension, which they did not earn, because 11 the benefits, even though they're not sufficient 12 enough, are higher than the normal non-public 13 service employee because they don't face the same 14 rigors and dangers as public safety employees. 15 So we have basically a scam that was going 16 on, with people jumping from -- just for sake of 17 example, the Water Department or from the Library 18 system to the Police or Fire Department, in an 19 effort to take advantage of a lucrative -- we 20 believe, I believe, closed that hole. 21

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Mr. Cubbage

I've been a firefighter for 28 years, and when I came on the Fire Department in 1974, you weren't allowed to be over the age of 31, you couldn't have reached your 31st birthday, okay? Now, I also taught at the Fire Academy a couple of times, and I was teaching people that were older than I am. And I know that physically, my body right now is not the same shape I was in 28 years ago; I cannot do the same thing as a firefighter now that I did then, but I have 28 years of experience under my belt, I have a lot more sense about what's going on inside of a burning building than I did when I was a rookie. When I was a rookie, I just trusted luck and had the senior guys. Well, now I'm a senior guy and I don't run in as quickly as I did before, and I pay a lot more 90 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 attention to the younger guys that are on the Fire Department. But you got a fellow that's -- if we hire somebody that's already older than I am -- I'm 50, and we're hiring people that are 56, 57, 58, 59, and they're rookies. There's no time to teach them how to become a professional firefighter before it's time for them to retire. It just doesn't make any sense

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Mr. Cubbage

Well, not out of high school 18 because we're not -- what we have -- we have a 19 meeting with the City, I believe, on Friday to deal 20 with a wellness/fitness program, which Local 22 and 21 the IFF internationally is in favor of, about how 22 to -- when we hire people for the Fire Department, we want them to be in physical shape and we want them to stay in that kind of shape for their entire career. 91 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575

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Councilwoman Reynolds Brown

Okay, all right then. And next year, hopefully, there will be another set of issues that you'll look for the City to address. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, given the limited budget constraints and the decisions that the leadership of all the City departments have to make, nothing is 100 percent. So given that reality, you've presented four in this list here, and the hope is that a year from now, two of the four or three of the four -- or, ideally, four of the four -- will be addressed, correct?

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Councilman Kenney

In the past two or three, because of the fiscal situation of the City and because of the influence of the PICA Act 9 binding arbitration was not, I guess, in the opinion 10 of the labor force fair to them, but they didn't 11 sue, they didn't go to court, and they didn't drag their feet. They sucked it up and ate what was given to them and continued on. This year -- or last year, I guess it was, for whatever reason, we decided to go around the binding arbitration process and sue in court to not uphold, or to dismiss a number of issues that the arbitrator awarded. That really cuts at the essence of binding arbitration. Uniformed employees, public safety employees are not permitted to strike, and that's a good thing -- for us as citizens. And I don't think they would anyway because they're too dedicated to what they do. But to have the City approach this Act 111 as if the binding arbitration is 94 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 meaningless, I think, is part of what a lot of the problem with all of our discussions is that it's being conducted with little or no good faith.

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Councilman Kenney

Okay. The two chairs of this committee would request that given sufficient time, that you give us some recommendations specifically on equipment -- both engine company, ladder company -- I'm sorry, engine, truck, ladder apparatus and personal safety gear, and give us some recommendations on what you believe we need to make your people safe, 'cause you're the guys that are entering the dwellings and entering the commercial establishments on fire. We'd appreciate hearing from you in a more complete way.

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Councilman Rizzo

Is there a situation in the Fire Department -- we talked about the high-tech, the thermal imaging things that would be nice, expensive, and very helpful. Are there times when firefighters respond to the scene of a fire and they don't have some of the basic equipment -- face shield, safety goggles, gloves, things that -- is there ever a storeroom problem where the standard-issue stuff isn't readily available, like half-mile ray lights that work properly? Is the Fire Department in pretty good shape when it comes to the nuts and bolts and the equipment that they need to first protect themselves and the public?

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Councilman Kenney

Commissioner, we're most appreciative if you could give us a run-down of the incident in Manayunk Main Street relative to the carbon monoxide exposure, the four firefighters there, the temporary hospitalization, what the situation is. We read in the paper how we think it happened. Perhaps you can confirm that or dispel that relative to roof repairs that were done and a blocked chimney that created the situation, but what could we learn about what we need to do in our firehouses relative to detection? And perhaps even, I understand, there's a technology available that would shut the heating system down in the event that the carbon monoxide level got to a too high a level. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: It was work that was being done on the chimney, as I understand it. And there were large chunks from that that ended up getting dropped down into the chimney, which blocked it off, which caused the carbon monoxide level to become very high. The flue pipe had extended further than what would normally be expected into the chimney. So when these large chunks come down 98 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 into the base of the chimney, it crushed the flue pipe, causing that go action to happen. We were not informed of that. I believe that to be absolutely irresponsible on the part of the contractor allowing that to happen.

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Councilman Kenney

Thank you. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: But basically what happened with that -- and we sort of know the story, they were taken to the hospital, one of which was particularly high in terms of its concentration. And so, obviously, that was changed and put back, and we cleaned out the cleanouts put, and then we put out a staff note to make sure that the captains know how to do the cleanouts. I told Chuck to have all of his people go around and check every chimney that we have to make sure that they're all cleaned out. 99 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 In a conversation with the union, they made me aware of a piece of equipment that could be installed on the flue pipe. When that happened, I told Chuck about that, and Chuck did some research, and he had some come in today and show him how that system works. The contractor, in my opinion, was just absolutely wrong here and should have told somebody that if you drop large chunks down in a chimney like that. So that's another situation, and I think we ought to take some action based on that. But it caused us to look at all of our heaters because that can be a very dangerous situation. Now, 75 percent of our heaters are what we call the "forced blue flame," and we have an outside contractor who's supposed to check them twice a year, the entire system, to make sure that nothing like that could happen and we couldn't have that backed up. There's another set of them that don't have the forced blue flame, and Public Property, as I understand it, is going to be inspecting all of those, and they want to do the work on those. The State is supposed to do a boiler 100 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 inspection on every boiler -- it used to be every year, and the ones that we've been getting back lately have indicated how long a period of time between the times that they were done. But we believe that we ought to inspect every one of them. We believe that we ought to put a device on there that would automatically shut it down. I don't personally care whether it alarms or doesn't alarm. What I want it to do is be tamper-proof so that nobody can do that and start it back up, unless it's a professional who is educated in that area. Now, for a specifics about that particular incident, since Chuck was out there and has been there several times. His name is Chuck LeGradi, and he handles our facilities maintenance for the Fire Department, and he has a crew that works directly for the Fire Department. (Witness comes forward.)

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Mr. Legradi

Yes. The contractor was working on the chimney. We have a renovation 101 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 project going on at Engine -- roof, masonry repairs, and chimney repairs. He was supposed to install a new chimney liner and masonry on the brick chimney. He didn't do that and left the original (indiscernible) stone there we told him that had to be removed wanted done and we wanted done what we, you know, specified. He did do that, but he knocked half of it down the chimney and didn't tell anyone. When we went there, the flue pipe was collapsed, the cleanout was collapsed. Risk Management was on site, our haz. mat. people were there. ACC Construction is the general contractor. American Restoration is the subcontractor that did the masonry work.

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Councilman Kenney

Okay. In the meantime, are we looking at any other type of detection that would be helpful in alerting people in the house that there's a problem until we -- COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We haven't found anything that's really specifically designed to do that that we can expect to be reliable based on the way firehouses are laid out and so forth. We believe that due diligence in this area in terms of making sure that the chimneys are cleaned, making sure that they are fired properly, making sure people are aware, making sure Chuck's people go and ensure that the chimneys are cleaned out, making sure that the contractor does what he's supposed to do, making sure that the people that work for Public Property do what they're supposed to do should be sufficient until such time as we can get that added on. This is a very serious thing for us.

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Councilman Rizzo

I'd like to follow up on the accusation that the contractor was absolutely responsible for this debris going down the chimney. Who conducted that investigation and how can you be 104 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 confident that the chimney -- that, in fact, it was obviously in some need of repair, hadn't collapsed into that flue pipe prior to the -- and with this warm weather that we've been having, I doubt the mechanical systems have been in operation a lot, but it seems like it's -- I'd like to know the source. And I'm not questioning your professional account of it, but I think before we make an accusation that a contractor was responsible for this, I'd like to hear the proof.

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Mr. Legradi

Well, the boiler was inspected on 9/26 and a combustion check taken, and the boiler was working fine then. The day after Thanksgiving, which was a Friday, we were all there and the pieces were pulled out from the chimney, and it was quite evident that it was chipped away from the top, it just doesn't fall apart, and that was the coping stone we asked him to remove. So in my mind, there was no doubt in my mind that he knocked that stone down that chimney.

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Councilman Kenney

Okay. Thank you very much for your testimony. We anticipate looking at 105 12/4/01 PUB. SAFETY/LEG. OVERSIGHT - RES. 010575 the information obtained in this hearing today and trying to make some recommendations for our budget process. We may have an additional hearing; we'll certainly give you sufficient advanced notice, and we appreciate your patience, your cooperation. And all the information you're provided to us today. Thank you very much. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Okay.

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Councilman Ortiz

This committee stands recessed until the call of the Chair. - - - (Proceedings end at 4 p.m.) 106 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia's joint meeting of the Council Committees on Public Safety and Legislative Oversight of Tuesday, December 4, 2001, are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. RE: Resolution No.010575 _______________________________, Josephine Cardillo Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)

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