okay chair we have 31 attendees you can proceed as you wish thank you good morning everyone my
name is bill bergman and i will be chairing this morning's eba hearing with me is our board member
james snell present chair our alternate board member lebaron leonard palmer from the division
of development services. Good morning, Mr. Chair. Also present is our attorney, Hillary Emerson,
and our executive director, Tanya Sunken. Here's our virtual format. Proceedings are being recorded.
With your participation, you agree to be recorded. The video will be available by contacting
Tanya Sunken at phil .gov. For a court stenographer, we ask that attorneys and witnesses
who identify themselves before testifying.
If you're participating by phone,
press star 9 to raise your hand
and star 6 to unmute.
To enter appearance statement,
call 267 -270 -5548.
Leave your email address
and the address of the property question.
Finally, the question box on the screen
is not for comments or testimony.
All comments should be directed
to our Executive Director,
Thomas Sunken.
Let's look at this morning's schedule.
number two mi 2023 007 126 469 irania street hillary fuelborn is the attorney also richard
demarco is the attorney for the permit holder and leonard reuter is the attorney for the city
mr chair you can call number five at the same time as well thank you
Okay. And number five, MI 2024 -001 -986 -463 on Iranian Street, Hillary Fieldborn is the attorney.
Good morning, Chair. This is Jasmine, and I will be your co -host today.
Hillary Fieldborn will be coming in as a panelist.
And you can bring in Mr. Reuter and Mr. DeMarco as panelists as well. Thank you.
Mr. Reuter and Mr. DeMarco will be promoted as panelists as well.
Good morning, counsel. Could you state your name and spell for the court stenographer, Hillary? Thank you.
Good morning. My name is Hilary Fulborn, H -I -L -A -R -Y, and my last name is F -U -E -L -L -E -B -O -R -N.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. DeMarco, could you identify yourself, please, and spell your name for the stenographer?
Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Richard DeMarco for the property owner. My last name is spelled D -E -M -A -R -C -O.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. Reuter, is he on?
He's just fine.
Oh, there he is.
Good morning, counsel.
Could you state your name and spell for the court sonographer?
Sure, thank you.
Good morning.
May it please the board, Leonard F. Reuter, R -E -U -T -E -R, Senior Attorney, City of Philadelphia.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Hillary, would you please start?
I understand we may have a request for a continuance.
Yes, Your Honor.
We are, my client and the developer have been having conversations, and it is my understanding
that this morning they were coming to an agreement, but we do not have anything signed and in
writing, so I am prepared to ask for a postponement of this hearing.
Mr. DeMarco?
Mr. Chairman, good morning.
My understanding is that Mr. Fitzpatrick did reach out to my client this morning, and
there's an agreement for Mr. Fitzpatrick to withdraw this appeal. This appeal should be
withdrawn. These two individuals are joined at the hip in this case because they
are part of a past subdivision. My understanding
is Mr. Fitzpatrick, and my client made certain commitments as well,
Mr. Fitzpatrick has agreed to withdraw this appeal. So this appeal needs to be withdrawn.
Thank you. Mr. Reuter?
mr reuter uh the city has no i we have no information or knowledge other than what
The city has no, we have no
information.
uh the board itself has seen through emails this morning so the city has no objection to
a continuance or however the board wants to handle this so so um we're going to continue this and mr
demarco this will be obviously continued for the last time and we're going to bring this back with
whatever the results of this conversations are, okay?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have one question.
I was not aware the board was hearing two cases
related to this property today.
Does this board have on its agenda
the appeal of the building permit as well?
All right, I might have a motion on that later.
All right, thank you.
Thank you.
So MI 2023 -007 -126 -469 Arania Street,
and hold on.
number five
lose the chairman yes just give us one minute i seriously have some technical issues
I'm still here, right? I don't see Leonard anymore or Fuliborn.
We're trying to get him back, sir.
Okay. Sorry. I'm wondering how I survived.
Apologies, counselors.
No problem.
Thank you.
who's our it person this morning is it bill yes i'm here oh wait can you please
send another panelist link
to the chair?
The one that he was using is now asking
him to update his registration.
Okay, hold on one second.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Bill, were you able to send the link?
Yes, I did.
I sent you that in the chat.
I sent you the fact that I sent it in the chat.
Oh, I'm sorry.
I resend it, but I did resend the link to it.
I sent it to here.
Let me just put that in the chat.
Make sure that's the right place.
That's where I sent the link.
Oh, okay.
No, that's not the right email.
That's what's sending it.
Can you send me back the proper email then?
Absolutely.
Got it.
Thank you.
New address link is sent.
sorry everybody I don't know what happened there
all right so let's go back here no problem Mr. Chair we can hear you loud and clear
okay so number two MI 2023 007 126 469 Iranian Street and number five
MI 2024, 001 -986 -469 Iranian Street.
Both cases are continued.
Both cases are continued.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Leonard, could you say one?
So number four, MI 2024 -001 -545 -101, Renard Place.
Fedefis Isomadonov is the owner applicant.
Appeal against L &I?
i believe uh mr is a midenoff is in the audience okay thank you
he has been promoted to panelists good morning sir could you please state your name it's spelled
for the Quartz Sonata.
Sir, you're muted.
Good morning, everyone.
Good morning.
Could you please state your name
and spell for the Quartz Sonata?
My name is Firdav Isomedinov.
Could you spell it, please?
f -i -r -d -a -v -s -i -s -o -m -i -d -d -i -n -o -v
do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth
yes i understand you you want to withdraw this case is that correct yes okay thank you very much
If I could just, so it's clear in the record, the city has withdrawn its violation because it was written in error, but there doesn't appear to be a way for this board to put like a moot designation.
So we've asked Mr. Izo Medinov to withdraw his appeal, and he's agreed to do that.
So that's why, but I just want to clear in the record that we've actually, there is no violation.
So thank you very much. Thank you very much, Leonard. We appreciate that. So MI 2024 001 545 101 Renard Place. This case has been withdrawn. Thank you, sir.
Thank you.
We're going to go to number three, MI 2024, 00161, 5918 Park Avenue.
Al Nockmson is the attorney.
This is a resumptive hearing.
Alan Nockmson has been promoted as Penalist.
Good morning, Mr. Nockmson.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Could you just state your name, please, and spell it for the court's sonographer?
Yes, my name is Alan Nockamson, A -L -A -N, last name is Nockamson, N -O -C -H -U -M -S -O -N.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
So, Mr. Nockamson, this is a resumptive hearing.
We're going to have an update from the RCO, take public testimony, planning commission recommendation, and a response from you.
But would you want to start with a quick outline of the case?
So, yeah, I mean, you already presented the case, but Hillary and I both talk.
Why don't you just give us a little summary of where you stand?
All right. So so this this property was approved for a variance in 2015 as a triplex.
My client took more than enough time to to try to get this up and running.
And unfortunately, he allowed his permits and approvals to lapse.
Some minor work was done on the property to convert it into a triplex.
The property has a history of non -single -family use for this RSA -3 property.
In addition to the variance granted in 2015, there's a record in 1989 of this property being used as a boarding house with seven rooming units, as well as a daycare in 1987.
This is a rather large property, a lot size of over 4 ,700 square feet.
And my client just wants to continue doing the work legally by way of this triplex.
Mr. Nockton, what's the rest of the block look like relative to multifamilies?
So there is signal families here.
I did look at the city records.
it looks like 5912 North Park Avenue had a rental license. It's not current of eight units. And
5902 North Park Avenue has had a rental license of two units, but that is also not current.
But again, almost 10 years ago, this board, under similar circumstances, granted
But again, almost 10 years ago, this board, under similar circumstances, granted a triplex for three units.
The other thing is. Is it functioning as a triplex now?
Well, they started doing the work and they had to stop doing the work because they needed to, you know, go through this process again.
I would also say that North Park Avenue, as the chairman may know, is a half a block away from Broad Street.
So typically, from a planning perspective, you do see multifamily typically close to these commercial borders.
Thank you. Is there an RCO rep in the audience?
I have a hand up by the name of Sarita Brown.
So just to clarify, Mr. Chair, I do see Sandra Broaddus. She's from the RCO. I believe Sarita Brown is the block captain.
Okay, so why don't we start with the RCO first?
Good morning, Mr. Chair.
Can you hear me?
I can.
Could you please state your name and spell for the court synodicator?
Sandra Broadus.
Sandra is S -A -N -D -R -A.
Broadus is B -R -O -A -D -U -S.
You swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
And you represent the RCO?
Yes, I do.
Please proceed.
This appeal has taken many, many turns.
And we started with a standard RCO meeting.
ACCA provided the Noccomson Group with our preferred meeting notice for 311.
And when we logged on to the meeting, there were no neighbors.
The Nockamson group advised us that they were going to ask to be heard and held anyway.
And so we didn't bother to log into the actual ZBA hearing.
um unbeknownst to us the neighbors saw the posting on the front of the building
and totally freaked out when they heard the they logged into the zoom they actually got the
notice off of the the the meeting notice logged into the zoom and were heard mr knockups say
that there was a community meeting and no neighbors showed up and Sarita Brown, who's
actually trying to speak now, she was the only neighbor that got through. Understand that Zoom
is still challenging for folks that haven't done it, but she was trying to tell the board that
the neighbors did not show up. They didn't get invited to the meeting. We sent a complaint and
the outline of those events. But in any regard, we asked the neighbors to verify that they did
or did not get the meeting notice by virtue of signing a survey. We've submitted that to the
board. Practically the entire block said they did not get it. But we had another meeting scheduled.
There was a resumptive hearing. I mean, we had to schedule another meeting. We had it at the church
on the corner of the actual block where this property is located, and we had a tremendous
turnout of neighbors who came who were very, very opposed. Apparently, these houses on this
block are large houses. They have beautiful backyards, and many of these neighbors have
been here for decades. The block is half a block off of Broad Street, and it is very much resented
by people who live on these blocks, residential communities, strong communities, to be
characterized as fair game, to be cut up and turned into multifamily dwellings. This block has a block
captain, the block captain maintains the lawns, the neighbors all know each other. And the bigger
part of it is that the 59, the property in question has been vacant as a result of vacated
attempts to convert it, which if the board granted that variance 10 years ago, circumstances
that certainly have changed in 10 years and because it has expired that same criteria should
not be applied to current day circumstances. The community has in fact been the one maintaining
been the one maintaining the property. They have no confidence in this owner because
the property. They have no confidence in this owner because
it has basically been neglected and the upkeep of it has been the community itself.
The neighbor next door has the same exact property. It's beautiful. We've shared a picture
of it with you. A huge yard. She's been there for 45 years and it's an ideal home for a single
family for single family. The neighbors on this block see their block and the beautiful houses
on the block as an opportunity for single families to own a nice substantial home that
actually have backyard something that is almost unheard of in Philadelphia and not just fair game
to be cut up and turned into multiple apartments. The close proximity to the next door neighbor
who's been there for 44 years who raised a family there is unthinkable that with these three units
with the proposed occupancy of nine occupants three per apartment would be burdening this
particular block and this particular household there's not going to be enough parking the block
is very, very small. There's a church on the corner. The maintenance of this particular block
is the reason why there's still safe passage to Howe School Elementary School two blocks away
because, yes, it's a block off of Broad Street, but children from the 8th and 9th District go to
Howe School and have to pass by these neighborhoods. And this block of Park Avenue, these seniors,
These people that have maintained this block all these years have been good stewards to this block, and it's not fair to them to have to live in the misery that will be represented in a house that does not even cut up appropriately.
The units don't make sense.
The second and third floor are sharing, units are sharing the same floor.
There's a huge yard that hasn't been decided how three apartments will harmoniously share it.
Pets will be allowed, so there's the potential for dogs in the yard, barking dogs.
We looked at the layout extensively at the community meeting, and the place just doesn't seem safe.
The railing, that's the second egress for the apartments, the wrought iron steps don't seem safe to navigate.
Seniors, who would be the ideal tenants, would never want to move in there.
So whoever moves in there would not gel with the existing neighborhood.
the neighbors are simply opposed to this
for so many reasons
and thank you very much
for taking this time
we appreciate it
thank you
questions or comments
from the virtual audience
I have a hand up by the name of
Sarita Brown
okay sure
Good morning, Ms. Brown.
Good morning.
Could you spell your name and state your name and spell for the court stenographer?
Yes, my name is Sarita Brown, S -Y -R -E -E -T -A, last name Brown, B -R -O -W -N.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Yes, Mr. Chair.
Can you hear the block happen?
yes i'm the cold block captain okay please proceed okay so um in addition to uh what
miss brodus was saying um yes all of those things stated as well as um i've been one of the last few
um people on the block to purchase my single family dwelling i reside at 5923 north park
avenue which is also one of the larger properties on the block uh we've been there for this year
will be seven years i have known that block to be a tight -knit community we do come together
on a couple weekends out of the month to maintain the block cleanup um we organize uh block party
events as a community we do do it as a whole i am uh extremely opposed to this just for the sake
of having again more crowdedness to the block and it's a concern safety when adding three
part units to the block and to be overturned possibly and potentially every year for
and to be overturned possibly and potentially every year for tenants coming and going.
It does serve as a burden when it comes to parking.
We are the only block in the two to three block radius that do not have the two -hour parking.
So outside of other people coming with their cars over living,
they do park on our block and walk to their destination,
even if it's one half block off of Broad Street.
So I just wanted to state that, again, just from my other neighbors, that we are extremely opposed to this three apartment dwelling.
Thank you for taking the time. We appreciate your comments.
Is there anyone else in the virtual audience?
Linda Hayes has been allowed to speak.
Could you please state your name and spell for the court's demographer?
H -A -Y -E -S.
Could you do it one more time, please?
L -I -N -D -A
H -A -Y -E -S
You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth.
Yes, I do.
Ms. Mallory, do you have on two devices?
We're in the same room together.
One of the devices have to be muted.
Thank you kindly.
Are you a neighbor?
She muted the wrong device.
You have to unmute yourself on the device you were just talking to.
I mean talking on.
Vicki.
I think Linda Hayes was the one that we swore in, correct?
Linda Hayes.
Okay, now she has her hand raised, so maybe she can unmute that device.
Morning, Ms. Hayes.
Okay, my address is 5931 North Broad Street.
I have been a resident on a block for 34 years.
I originally was a low...
Okay, I don't know why.
Can you hear me now?
I can hear you better now.
It's okay.
All right, let me...
Ms. Hayes, let me say this.
You've heard the testimony we've already had.
Is there anything different that you could add?
Okay, well, since I've lived on this block, and I can say probably for the past 15 years, Miss Mallory and I have been keeping that property clean.
We had squatters in there a few years ago.
We had to have them removed.
We remove all the weeds on the property.
And the property owners have never, ever, when we have inclement weather, they have never, ever removed the snow and ice from the pavement.
When you come to their property, we have to walk in the street.
they also disregard um when they started the construction they removed miss mallory's fence
without her permission and she asked them not to remove their fence so they can do construction
on the house i don't so so so miss miss hayes yeah it would be safe to say you're you're not
in favor of this project no i'm not okay um thank you so much for taking the time to calls we do
appreciate it is there anyone else in the virtual audience yes chair vicky mallory has been allowed
to speak okay i could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer my name is vicky
vicky lynn mallory i live at 5922 north park avenue vicky vicky do me a favor spell your name
please for the stenographer vicky lynn v -i -c -k -i -l -y -n -n one word mallory m -a -l -l -o -r -y
right do you swear or firm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
i do um miss mallory we've had a quite a bit of comments relative to this are you for the
project or against the project against it um we appreciate it you've heard numerous reasons why
people gave, and we do appreciate you calling. Is there anything you want to add? Yes, it's the
The untrustworthiness of the present owner with regards to them removing my fence, as well as the fact that -
untrustworthiness of the present owner.
We've had the testimony about your fence before from someone else.
So is there anything else?
At this time, I feel as though a single family dwelling would be best for this community,
primarily because of the respect and the way that our neighbors work with one another
with regards to upkeeping our community, as well as we are a close -knit family.
Okay. I've heard that. We've heard that from several people. Thank you.
All right.
And we appreciate you taking time to call. Is there anyone else in the virtual audience?
I see no hands at this time, Chair.
do you want to add that note you have before we go to planning um well yes i just i just wanted to
to note um for the record it appears that the refusal is missing a refusal for parking because
it's rsa3 so there should be a refusal for not having three parking spaces because i don't
believe there's any parking at the property is that correct that is correct can i respond uh to
to that um uh refusal um what go ahead mr chair what okay yes you can yes go ahead uh yeah so
as you saw from the pictures of the property um it would be impossible to provide any off -street
parking on that property um and it would be also out of character for the neighborhood as a whole
to have off -street parking for this RSA -3 type of property?
Mr. Chair, can I respond?
So what I'm going to do before I go to the Planning Commission,
why don't you respond?
So there were a lot stated.
So I just want to state first, as this board knows,
I regularly appear in front of this board and the communities.
Our office, whenever we're told to send out a notice, we do.
Whatever the addresses are, we do.
So I don't know why other people didn't get it. You know, sometimes it looks like solicitation materials and, you know, that's just the process. I mean, we just send out the notices blindly.
As far as some of the comments made, I was not the attorney when this board previously granted a variance for three units, but I can only imagine that there were similar arguments made.
This is a 4 ,700 -square -foot lot. We're asking for three units. There's a legal doctrine called variance by estoppel, in addition to a variance request that we're asking for.
But under the doctrine of variance by estoppel, when you take measures in detrimental reliance on government action here, an approval of a variance, and starting a partial conversion of this property into a triplex, there's legal grounds to allow for the grantee and the variance.
I heard the community state a couple things and I looked at Mrs. Broadus's letter we just got this morning. We would agree to a proviso of commercial trash pickup. We're not overburdening this property given its large size. But just to point out in the floor plans, there is no basement living.
If this was approved, we would have to do a fire suppression and an alarm system in the property. And some of the items were discussed was about railings and stuff like that and staircases. Everything would have to be building code compliant, whether it's single family or multifamily.
but my client is not making any changes to the physical structure at all.
They're seeking the least modification possible that you can expect in the Philadelphia Zoning Code
in that they're only seeking a use variant.
They're not changing dimensions of the property at all.
And, you know, for these reasons, we believe that this variant should be granted again
to allow my client to continue converting the property into a triplex.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Planning Commission.
Hi, Amy Boyd with the City Planning Commission, A -M -Y -B -O -Y -D.
Right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Please proceed.
The comprehensive plan recommends no change to the existing RSA 3 single -family zoning at this location.
The appellant's claim hardship is self -created as they began renovation for multifamily after the multifamily zoning permit expired and they had a permit for vacant property.
Accordingly, the Planning Commission recommends the board deny the variance for three -family dwelling.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Mr. Nockamson, we're going to take this to executive session next week.
We'll vote on this at 2 p .m. next Wednesday.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Give me a chance to talk to the other board members, too.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
And let's go to number one.
Let's go to number one.
So MI 2023, 007 -020 -508 -14 Moore Street.
Darwin Beauvais is the attorney.
Steve Masters represents the Protestants.
Good morning, Mr. Masters, could you state your name and spell it for the court stenographer?
We're not hearing you, Steve.
We can't hear you, Steve.
Darwin, could you say your name and spell for the courts?
Darwin Beauvais, D -A -R -W -I -N, Beauvais, B -E -A -U -V, as in Victory, A -I -S, as in Sam.
I represent the applicant.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, to hold truth, nothing but the truth?
Thank you.
Mr. Masters?
We're having a hard time.
Sorry, Chair.
I was going to suggest that he go out and come back in.
Yeah, why don't you go out and come back, Steve?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Hillary, do we have Mr. Master's phone number?
There he is.
Mr. Master.
Are you able to hear me now?
We hear you, sir.
Thank you.
All right.
Awesome.
Could you state your name and spell for the court stenographer?
Good morning, Mr. Chair, members of the board.
My name is Steve Masters, S -T -E -V -E, M -A -S -T -E -R -S, and I'm with the law firm of JustLaws.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
So this is a resumptive hearing.
Here's what we're looking at today.
A cross -examination of John Disley by Mr. Masters.
A cross -examination of John Disley by Mr.
Any additional witnesses from the applicant?
Protestants' presentation, public testimony, and then planning.
Mr. Chairman, I believe at the last hearing, we rested our case.
You're not bringing any more witnesses on?
I don't remember you saying that, but maybe I'm...
Yeah, it was after, just before John Disley testified.
All right.
Mr. Chairman, there's another witness listed by the applicant, but if they are waiving that, that's obviously up to them.
I don't know who that is.
Matt Sullivan.
Yeah, Mr. Bovee, that's why we weren't sure if there were any additional witnesses, because Matthew Sullivan was on your witness list.
had not heard from him thank you that's that's fine but he did right on that last list all right
thank you john disley you see mr disley in the audience
no chair
to testify at the last hearing yeah but we were looking for cross today right right
was was uh was was moved to this resumption here right
mr disley
I see nobody by their name, too.
Okay. Thank you.
He's not here, Steve.
Okay. Well, I can go through some of the exhibits that I would have asked him about.
So just for that we're clear for the record, the applicant has concluded their case.
Mr. Masters, we're now moving into the presentation from the protestants.
Thank you. So, Mr. Chair, members of the board, I will give a brief opening and then we will have a series of witnesses for the objectors.
um this is a um this is a case that has um caused a significant amount of alarm and and um and
concern among the near neighbors and it isn't for a typical reason that you may hear uh in in this
board when neighbors come forward and say that they are opposed to alcohol and drug treatment
centers in their neighborhood. My clients are not opposed to those treatment centers when they're
run well, when they will help the people who they're treating and not cause a nuisance or
a quality of life, significant quality of life issues to their, to the surrounding neighbors.
The reason that we're here today is because it is our, it is, it is our firm belief and it will be
explained to you in detail from our expert, who is one of the most established and experienced
leaders and operators of recovery treatment centers and all kinds of every level of drug
and alcohol treatment facilities, both in Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania, in the region,
um and uh for for very many years um we're here on a special exception where we have to show as
the objectors that there is credible evidence that this facility if it were to open would
be a a net harm to the to the neighbors it wouldn't be like an average uh facility it would
be worse um and that's what we're what that's what we intend to prove today there also is a
variance before you and that's on parking and you'll hear some testimony that the amount of
parking that is um that would be needed to run this facility is quite a bit more than the parking
spaces that are um that are being provided under this plan but the major the major issue before
you today is a special exception um so i will um i would at this time like to call um our expert um
is mike carl
mike carl has been allowed to speak
Mike Harrell has been allowed to speak.
Could he be promoted to the panelist, please?
Mike Harrell is coming in as a panelist.
Good morning, sir.
Good morning.
Hi, could you please state your name and spell for the court stenographer?
Yeah, my name is Michael Harrell.
um m -i -c -h -a -e -l uh harle h -a -r -l -e you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and
nothing but the truth yes i do please proceed counsel um good morning mr harle are you able
to put your video on uh i think so let me see here there you go all right okay we can see you
much better now. All right. Mike, I wanted to review your CV, and then I'm going to be making
a request, Mr. Chair, that Mr. Har will be designated as an expert witness. Can you tell
us about your career with addiction treatment facilities? I started in the field in 1972
as a trainee. So, and I worked at the first residential treatment program for drugs in
Philadelphia and helped keep it alive and expanded throughout the state of Pennsylvania and in other
states. So I started as a counselor, a counselor trainee. I moved up from a counselor to a clinical
supervisor, from a supervisor to a program director, from a program director to a regional
director, from a regional director to an associate executive director. And then later in 1988, I became
the president of Godenzie Incorporated and stayed that in that position up until two years ago when
I retired. So Godenzie, is that the is that the agency that you've been affiliated with the
longest yes how many oh sorry over 50 years 50 years how many facilities did your agency operate
when you were the ceo uh when when i first took over it had uh six facilities six facilities and
when i left uh it had um 70 locations with uh over 100 programs in those 70 locations many of those
Some of the locations had multiple levels of care in the same facility.
Were there any facilities that you were in charge of in Philadelphia?
Do those still exist?
How about in the rest of Pennsylvania?
Yes. And we have, we have about 25 or 40 programs within, within the state of Pennsylvania, not including Philadelphia, where we have, I think it's, I got to count about 25 different programs in Philadelphia. And in about, we're in about 25 locations in Philadelphia.
Okay. In other states, do you have other, did you ever leave facilities in other states also?
Yes, we operate, we were asked by the governor, I mean, the mayor who then became the governor to open up some of the first residential programs.
They had a long history of losing residential treatment programs, and we were asked to come down and consult with them and open up programs.
And we now have, we've been there in 20 years since 2001.
And we have, we're the second, probably the largest program in the state of Maryland.
Oh, okay.
I wasn't sure if you had said Maryland before.
So you're talking about Maryland?
Maryland, also Delaware, the state of Delaware.
We operate programs in Delaware and in Washington, D .C.
And we have helped consult the open programs in New York City.
So can you share leadership positions that you've held both locally, nationally and internationally and in various organizations connected to your profession?
Yeah. So I'm the past president of Philadelphia Alliance of Mental Health, Mental Retardation and Intellectual Disability Programs.
and I was that for some period of time.
I'm also the past president of the state of Pennsylvania's
Drug and Alcohol Service Providers Organization.
I'm the past president of the World Federation,
I mean, the treasurer of the World Federation of Treatment Programs.
There are 35 treatment programs like Gadenzia in 35 countries around.
treatment programs like Gidenzia in 35 countries around the world. And I also
was past president of the Treatment Centers of America, which is located in Washington, D .C.,
which has programs throughout the country and in Canada.
Mike, have you ever been hired by any state or local governments to consult or teach?
Yes. My job wasn't to do that, but I did that when it would help the field because I really believe in what the field does and what Gadenzia has done is also being done by many other people.
So anywhere I could help, I tried to help.
Were any of those state or local government agencies in Pennsylvania?
Yes. I was also a consultant to the state of Pennsylvania.
to actually develop the clinical criteria for admissions and the transition to the ASAM.
Have you ever testified before federal, state, or local government bodies?
Yes, on numerous occasions. Congress, state, and multiple states.
Okay. Have you ever participated in local zoning hearings for substance use disorder residential treatment centers?
too many to count um and um probably in pennsylvania over 50.
um some we were successful and some we weren't so in all of the zoning hearings that you've been
to up till now um have you ever opposed a residential treatment center in the past no
um i'm gonna ask at this point mr chair for mr hart will be recognized as a substance use
Disorder Residential Treatment Expert. Mr. Bovey, do you have any comments?
No. Okay, that's fine. I recognize his expertise. All right, thank you. Mr. Harrell,
do you have any experience with evaluating proposed new substance use disorder treatment
facilities in general? Yes. What are the key factors that you look at when you evaluate a
proposed SUD residential treatment facility? Well, we look at the need, the ability of the
management team, which includes the board, whether it be a board of directors or ownership,
who they are and what their expertise is in the area. We also then look at the clinical
makeup of the program and the experience they have with opening such -like programs.
We also look at the day -to -day management that they're proposing.
So we also look at the marketing.
What is the environment that they're working in and what is their relationships with the environment that they're working in, both the community and the governmental agencies?
In your opinion, Mr. Harrell, what factors make a successful and high -quality substance use disorder residential treatment program?
uh the planning i think the number one thing is is the planning uh not only a planning of the
physical plan of the program which is probably becomes one of the easiest uh most expensive but
one of the easiest things to do it's the um the the experience of the program and their plan to
how they will implement that program and what the steps that they're going to take to get that
that program up and running and keep it running over a longer period of time.
So in your opinion, what factors would make a low performing and substance use disorder
residential treatment program? Pretty much the lack of planning, the lack of planning,
the lack of, and one of the biggest things would be the expertise of the management team,
the clinical team, and the experience that they have in doing such an opening such program.
In your experience, extensive experience in this area, are there negative impacts on the surrounding community that are associated with low -performing residential treatment programs?
Well, the potential, which is pretty high, is that when the program is not successful, it affects not only the financial, but also the clinical programming that goes on within.
Because if you don't have the expertise to run a good program and then you don't have the money to do it, you can make a lot of mistakes and then that flows out into the community.
like any other business um it's not you know drug and alcohol is is not any different than if you had a
You know, drug and alcohol is not any different than if you had a poorly run hairdresser in your neighborhood.
You know what I mean? People waiting outside. It's almost, I don't want to say that it's inevitable, but it's inevitable that if it's not well run, it's going to have impacts on the neighborhood.
And it's sad because programs that are managed properly, okay, usually have a positive impact on the neighborhood, usually improve a neighborhood.
We've had, in many of our zoning hearings, we've had people come to the zoning hearing who live in the neighborhoods where we operate to talk about how we operate.
That probably is the most important thing that people want to do.
How well are you managed?
In your experience, how important is it for the senior management team to have a strong background and a track record with a substance use disorder residential facilities before they launch a brand new facility?
So residential facilities are one of the more complex of all the facilities that you can operate. So you do need the expertise. I mean, you can go online and Google what a residential program is. That would not give you the ability to run such a complex operation.
Let's focus on the specific proposed substance use disorder residential treatment center at 508 Moore Street.
Right. What kind of specific what specific kind of facility is being proposed here?
They're proposing a three one, which is is in in Pennsylvania would be considered a halfway house, halfway house, meaning it's a non -hospital residential treatment facility licensed as a treatment facility, but also has the ability to allow people to go to work on a daily daily basis or go to school.
And it's for people who have been stabilized to the point where they can leave the facility and get back to the facility without harming themselves or others.
So when you say in Pennsylvania, it's called a halfway house, is that because Pennsylvania designates these facilities with different names or different codes than other states?
So up until about three to four years ago, Pennsylvania had its own state criteria.
We were the first state in the nation to actually fund through Medicaid the residential treatment.
So they had their own standards.
And then about three years ago, they crosswalked that with ASAM, which is the American Society of Addiction Medicine.
So there's a transition. And what the state did is a crosswalk to show how their past past licensing standards, which haven't been changed. So you got to know that these are licensing standards that have been there for a very long time. And then what they did is they crosswalked into it to use ASAM, which is really a placement criteria. It's not necessarily licensing criteria at all. So the licenses in Pennsylvania are different than they are in other states.
Okay. We've also heard the number 3 .5 for a facility. What is the difference between a 3 .1 facility and a 3 .5 facility?
Yeah, it's an intensive facility.
Mr. Chairman, I will have to object to that because our application, we've always stated 3 .1. That's the project that we're proposing.
Well, Mr. Chair, at the community meeting that the applicants attended, Mr. Bovey was not at this particular community meeting, but I was there.
And there was discussion of the potential for this to be operated as a 3 .5 if they weren't able to successfully operate as a 3 .1.
So I wanted to put that in the record.
Okay. So subsequently, we sat down with the councilman and our community benefits agreement says no more than a 3 .1.
Okay, good. I would say I'm going to allow the question and see what the expert would response.
So the license for a 3 .1 and a 3 .5 in Pennsylvania are the same, so you know.
So they are the same.
They are both non -hospital residential treatment facilities.
So they have the same licensing.
So the 3 .1 and the 3 .5 are different in regards to the types of clients that they take.
Is that helpful?
Well, when you say it's different with the type of clients,
Well, when you say it's different with the type of clients, is there different levels of care that are required?
is there
And is there different types of clients that are in each of these facilities?
Yes. So for 3 -1, you're looking at people who would probably step down.
When I say to use the word step down, would usually have been stabilized in another level of care so that this level of care would be appropriate.
For example, Cadenzia operates many 3 .1s and many 3 .5s, and most of our clients that are in 3 .1 have been in a 3 .5 before they get there.
So you see what I mean? So that the more intensive treatment has been done before they get there.
um so that's so when you say that it's the same state license for a 3 .1 and a 3 .5
what um what would what would stop a facility from from being able to change from from one
to offer one level of service to a different level of service but they have to get they'd
have to apply to the state if they said they were 3 .1 and they're going to be a 3 .5 they'd
have to communicate with that state of Pennsylvania. That's about it.
Just give them notice that they're changing their treatment modality?
Right. They wouldn't need to change their license because they'd already have the license,
but they're changing their... Is there another form of residential treatment center that's also
encompassed in that license? Yes. If you had a non -hospital detoxification program,
but that's a separate license but the the two two levels of care that are in asam that have one
license is the three one and the three five and there's a three now there's a three seven which
is for people that are severely um uh mentally ill or have other problems that are accommodate
with this problem so you that same license but and and is is the same license is there's something
called a recovery house is is that is that included in this in the state licensing just
recently a couple years ago they came up with standards for recovery houses that are uh which
is a different license altogether okay much more um uh is really for for living it's more of a
housing program okay um covering how recovery housing not necessarily treatment
so the emphasis in recovery house is on the housing and not on the treatment part right
okay um going back to this proposed 3 .1 facility who is the defined target population
from your from from your review of and i think you you've heard all of the testimony before
right so what i did is i reviewed all the documents uh from uh the meetings all the
meetings that were had anywhere where there was a document I reviewed it and then I researched
looked at wherever there was a uh a name or a person I went online to see what their their
background was where I didn't have it if I had it I I looked at it and I evaluated based on that
I can kind of I can give you a list of all the things I mean Mr. Chairman I I I think I have
to object to this because the question he's being asked is speculate what kind of clients
we would have and i i don't think that's that's that's appropriate um because simply he he's
he's not a consultant to us he's not uh and and our plans to to populate
uh is it necessarily set in stone the way he's going to describe it so for i think that that's
that's going a little bit too far out into sea just to say hey what where is he going to get
the where will the applicant get their get their patients from and for him i can reframe the
question, Mr. Chair. All right. Mr. Harrell, in the course of your leadership of Gadenzia,
did you ever, were you ever the leader when your agency expanded and opened up new 3 .1
facilities in Philadelphia? Yes. Okay. And as part of that leadership of the agency during that time,
do you have an understanding of the population that is typically served by 3 .1 facilities in
Philadelphia? Yes. And is the population that was served by your facilities at Godenzia,
is there any reason to believe that it would be different from the population that would be
served at 508 Moore Street? No. Okay. So what is the targeted population for 3 .1 facilities for
for 3 .1 facilities for people who are residents of Philadelphia.
people who are
residents of Philadelphia.
So I wanted to clarify that I did not assume that.
I just read the documents that said specifically that the target population would be males in Philadelphia, okay, that are on Medicaid.
That's what it said.
Now, I can tell you that if you're not dealing with people on Medicaid, that you probably would have a problem financially, but that's a different discussion.
But I just went by the information that I got from the meetings that they stated their target population and who it was.
Are you referring to that question and answer, I think, 10 -page document that Councilmember Scuola read at that meeting?
Okay. So when you're saying that their target population is males in Philadelphia who are eligible for Medicaid, where would this facility, where do you believe, what is the likely sources of referrals at this facility?
In order to bill for Medicaid in the city of Philadelphia, you would have to be an approved provider for that level of care with the Community Behavioral Health Managed Care Company in Philadelphia.
CBH, which is a quasi -government agency, right?
Right. And do you have an opinion on the likelihood that this new facility would qualify for Medicaid funding with CBH?
That's really up to CBH, but CBH at this point has said that they're not looking to open up new programs.
So that's based on their most recent discussions.
including at the
one of the community meetings that was held on this project
exactly it was in the documents that you proposed to me
so usually what they do
the city of Philadelphia would do is put out a request for proposals
to open up the network
so the way you're saying
the way CBH works is they put out an RFP
there's an RFP process
Well, they don't have to, but they usually do.
They'll put out if they're looking to expand their services.
For example, recently they put an RFP out for 3 -1 and Gadenzius actually got one of the awards before I left.
So, and then they closed it back up again.
Well, you left about three years ago?
So when you say recently, it was kind of more than three years before now?
Probably three years.
probably i've been going for two and a half something like that all right in your in your
opinion um if this new facility does not have a contract with cbh or medicaid funding will they
likely get funding from other insurance companies they could they would have to get um places like
independence blue cross or some of the other insurance companies that in the some of the
different insurance companies but i can tell you that most of the folks in philadelphia that need
this level of care probably don't have it the reason they're there is to get back into the
workforce and get a job you know what i mean and the fact the idea that they would have insurance
to pay for this is probably not likely but it could be well in your experience with opening
up and running 3 .1 facilities in philadelphia have were were you aware of of any sizable
uh number of of of clients who came into your facilities that had private insurance no
were there any clients that came into your facilities with private insurance okay so
what would you say in that level of care usually in the more intensive levels of care like detox
residential treatment not not in the 3 -1 which is really a halfway house most insurance companies
don't like to pay for halfway houses matter of fact they don't usually like to pay for treatment
so well if you're if you have private insurance and you need treatment how do they how do they
say no to you uh you have to you have to be certified you have to go through a process you
have to be a provider one of their providers in their network and their network sometimes have a
managed care company that you would just like cbh that you would have to be approved by i see i see
And then that you'd have to meet criteria for admission.
And some of them use ASAM, some of them do not.
So if this facility, this new facility at 508 Moore
so if this facility this new facility at 508 more was going to take private insurance they
would have to be in network for all of these insurance companies they could be at a network
and and the individual could be billed to themselves and then they have to work it out
with their insurance company but that that's a that's a real steep hill to climb there
does the location i'm going to switch now to to talking about location for this facility
Does the location for this facility impact whether it can be a successful self -pay facility? In other words, are facilities located in South Philadelphia? What kind of success rate would they have with operating with self -pay, with having people bring their own insurance?
Most self -pay programs are out are sometimes outside of the city or in locations that are many of the ones that are either in the suburbs of Philadelphia or in the rural areas.
so you know i just i i don't know of any uh there might be outpatient programs that that operate in
the city that operate off insurance and there are many actually but but not residential treatment
programs it's it's unusual so right now patients in the city where it could happen but this may
not be one of them but your testimony is that right now you're not aware of any 3 .1 facility
in philadelphia that has uh self -pay uh private insurance well they may have some people but you
know but i don't know any that operate strictly off of that level okay um i want to turn now to
your evaluation of the leadership and the staffing for this new facility
um did you do any background searches on the development team yes okay how would you describe
their background and experience? Well, I think that
the big area is that none of the people on the team, many of them had never operated 3 .1 or
even designed or ran a 3 .1. That's number one. And if they did, they might've done some consulting
work for one, but not necessarily the startup or the actual operation of one. And particularly in
where there was some interaction, they weren't in Pennsylvania and they definitely weren't in
Philadelphia. So there was no expertise in opening a program in Philadelphia or opening up a program
in Pennsylvania that's a three -one. So that was kind of, that was very obvious. And there was
limited expertise outside of Philadelphia. There was other expertises, mental health, other
expertises, but not the kind of expertise you would need to design and implement a program in
philadelphia why is it important that uh the leadership uh the leadership team in a new
facility have experience specifically in philadelphia for a 3 .1 facility well with i mean
they could have similar experience uh that transpires but philadelphia is a pretty complex
place they have their own managed care company so you'd have to you would have to deal with cbh
You know what I mean? You would be in a situation where all the other city and state organizations like criminal justice system, probation and parole, all the other systems in Philadelphia, you would have to have some ability to interact with all those.
The health department, you know, I mean, it's a it's a you know, the city itself is a complex part, although and the state is as complex also, but not as much as the city of Philadelphia.
It would be like opening in Baltimore or New York City.
What did you discover in your background review on Revive Consultant?
Yeah, they had very limited expertise in doing this at all.
I mean, I can tell you, I can give you more detail if you need it.
Yeah, I'd like a little more detail.
uh the program that they described by the way they described the program and i looked at that
program and i looked at the expertise of the people operating to run the program that they
described okay so um the project developer and the team had no document experience
administering a similar project and no expertise in operation of any similar program is evident
than anything I read, okay?
The Revive consultant has a very limited experience
in assisting with startups in Maryland
In assisting with startups in Maryland and no experiences with 3 -1 in Pennsylvania, which are licensed and financed differently than Maryland.
and no experiences with 3 .1 in Pennsylvania.
I know that because I operated in Maryland.
Revised consultant has no history of actual program administration.
They did consulting work, you know, for very specific things for them.
um the other there were seven other consultants listed who had no history of program administration
at all of um of that would be necessary for this um seven of the people there was one or there was
one person who had drug and alcohol background i had operated a drug and alcohol program in
pennsylvania but not in philadelphia and it was an outpatient program is that are you referring to
the american treatment center yes right okay well that's talking about chris um devaney because he's
i added i added him because he's actually works at the american treatment center so right so but
he's not the designer of that program in order to open it so i just wanted to make that clear so
but he has philadelphia by the way it's in pennsylvania it's right it's not in philadelphia
so well this american treatment center is is not residential is that correct
right is it basically a methadone clinic well they provide outpatient services beyond just
methadone but that's one of their largest populations that look you know that's i'm
looking at their own website and what they've operated but they operate they also do mental
health counseling they do other counseling there but it's not a it's not a three there's a much
different than what a 3 -1 would be it's all like an out on an outpatient basis in a different
license okay um chris devaney though he was part of some residential treatment program in uh
delaware is that correct yes and uh he came in later because none of this he was not a part of
any of the teams that that were given to uh to me so he came in much later um he does he has
background in operating programs in Delaware and he worked in Pennsylvania, but there is no
expertise there for a 3 -1 in the state of Pennsylvania or in Philadelphia. And I don't
think he has any experience from his resume that he gave to provide any services like that in
Philadelphia, but he has more expertise than the rest of the team. He's the one person that has
enough expertise to actually
you know
guide some of the things but
it's a big
steep hill to climb
would you
is it fair to say that the agency he was
with in Delaware was a troubled agency
I can't speak
to that I mean there are you know
I think that you
I really I'm not
evaluated
how troubled they were or
whatever. That's not something I did. They did have the Justice Department bring some enforcement
against them. Objection. You asked the question, he answered it. Okay. I agree. Sure.
Mr. Harlow, do you have concerns about this team working with clients with criminal histories?
chris devaney has background with dealing with people with criminal histories but
you would the concern i would have is that the clients in pennsylvania and particularly in
philadelphia state probation state parole the city of philadelphia is much different than the
operations in delaware because i operate in delaware i can tell you but the expertise of
knowing how the criminal justice system works in general looks like it's in his resume but no one
else's okay um did you develop any conclusions about how likely it would be for this team
to operate a high quality residential treatment center at 508 more i think yes and that you know
based on all the documentation that i looked at i don't i think they will have serious difficulties
so let's go into some of the details about their program to see what your concerns are
Well, one is it's a large program. It's 56 beds for three, one in that locate. 56 beds is, is, is a lot to operate. You know what I mean? You have to, as it relates to security and a lot of other things, most halfway houses in Pennsylvania are 30 people or under.
so they're not
three fives
there are large programs
that are residential treatment programs
but usually halfway houses
Usually halfway houses are smaller in size, so you have a more contained population.
are smaller in size
so you have a more
56, and it's on multiple floors, is a lot to pay attention to.
It's not that it's undoable, it's just that it's a complex program, and with the leadership you have here, I think it would be difficult, to say the least.
Did you make specific findings about the quality of their proposed programming at the facility?
Yeah, I think I just got done saying that the size of the program didn't match.
It looks like there are some problems about when you look at staffing.
Their staffing plan had serious, I think, I'll give you an example.
They really looked at it as how many counselors you would have to have.
And that's not the only thing that you would have to do. You'd have to have security staff, but you also have to have peer counselors and house managers, people to manage people going in and out of the building all the time.
so you would need a 24 -hour coverage day and night they did say that they would do that but
when they looked at how many counselors they would need it got it's got a little it got
they looked at the minimums that you would need to operate a program in the state of
pennsylvania as it relates to counselors so there's more to running a 3 -1 than the counselor staff
so you're saying those other staff people are just missing from their plans
Yeah, pretty much.
I think that Steve started to, I listened to his testimony, he started to talk about that, but that's not in the documents that I got.
Does the amount of parking seem adequate to handle all of these staff and facilities needs?
yeah that's a i think that their plan if i if i read it right that they were looking to expand
their parking you know what i mean so but when i looked at the expansion there's uh there's going
to be a lot of in and out you have recovery support programs you have uh case managers that
are going to show up at the facility to see their clients because many of their clients in philadelphia
have case managers and sometimes they have more than one case manager they might have three
probation and parole people 12 -step meetings where would they talked about 12 -step meetings
but there was no how they would do that would they do it at that site and we think i have to
object because he's not a parking expert he is an expert on programming and i i understand
counselor is trying to extend programming to how somebody will effectuate the program. How will
they get there? But I think that's beyond his scope. L &I has taken a position that once the
lots are consolidated, the parking is satisfied. So here's where I am. I don't think he can
testify as to how many spots you need i think he could testify that these places are busy places
yeah see we're not saying we're not asking mr hall to tell you that there should be x number
of parking spaces we want yeah yeah i mean i i think he can say look these are busy places
and it takes a lot of people in and out to treat clients and i thought that's where he was but i
don't think he can say 56 we need 62 63 so i i agree with you there darlin okay i wouldn't
testify to the parking you know what i mean okay thank you but i do i do want to ask you mr harrell
um are is it typical or or or or would you anticipate that a certain number of the residents
in this facility would be would have and own cars uh when they when they arrive at this facility i
will have to object to that that's speculation you know it's not speculation it's based on his
experience you don't know what kind of patients will be there so that is speculation so i i i
agree i think i think mr harl would have a hard time figuring out who's gonna have a car who
doesn't i mean he could maybe give an example of a location he ran and how many people had cars
but i i don't so mr harlan in the in the locations that you that you ran 3 .1s in philadelphia
uh how typical was it that that the residents uh that a number of residents would have cars there
yeah just something to consider is that if you ban them from bringing cars to the facility
Just something to consider is that if you ban them from bringing cars to the facility, that doesn't mean they don't have a car. That doesn't mean that they won't park the car around the corner.
I don't know.
You know what I mean? So it becomes a man. You really would. If that's your policy, which that is here, you really have to figure out how to properly manage that.
All right. Now, the next area, I believe that my opposing counsel may raise an objection, so I want to raise this with you first, Mr. Chair.
I want to ask the expert witness around the viability of the facility and he spoke earlier of the connection between a facility that is not economically viable or is struggling economically and then the harms that that causes to the surrounding community.
So I want to go into some questions on his his experience about the viability of it.
But I know that my my opposing counsel is going to object.
So opposing opposing counsel.
Yeah, I will object because, again, you know, that's been a pattern with the Protestants case that, oh, it's not viable.
You're not going to make any money. You're not going to do this.
these are financial business issues when this is, and land use matter.
So I think I would allow him to testify to his own experience of programs that he was involved with that were not viable and what were the effects.
Let's go with that, Mr. Harrell.
Can you describe for us programs that you are familiar with?
Perhaps some of them are from your own agency that encountered financial troubles and what
the impact was.
Yeah, so if in fact you have, because of those problems that Gidenzi had in the past, we
would make sure that the financing, sometimes the financing may be for, you know, in this
case it's not clear but even when it is clear uh many of the contracts are year to year so a
contract could stop uh and when that contract stops and you don't have the ability and you
have staff there you have some choices do you close the program altogether do you how do you
how do you do that and if you don't have a plan ahead of time on how you're going to do that
things can go well well instead of talking about plans fast tell tell could you say your own
experience what's happened yeah i think that what happens is that you uh not what happens what
happened with you oh we you can get short -staffed your staff is not i would close programs i would
have to close it i'd have to either change the program make it something different than what it
was or close it you know mr mr chairman and steve maybe if you ask him what facility did you close
and why oh we closed that yeah so because of the lack of funding i'm sorry i didn't hear that could
you do that again so we closed the program in delaware because the lack of funding when we
started the program, there was funding available and it continued. And the funding source that
was funding the program was not a viable one. We fought for a long time to get them to be a
more viable funding source and the state didn't do it. And so we had to close. And in the interim
of closing, you ended up with, you're going to have to lay staff off, staff leave if they think
the place is not viable. They don't get, you can't hire people because people believe that
the program is not viable enough to operate. So if you, or you hire people that may have
quality issues because you're, you're, you're struggling to find staff that are, that are
capable. Did you, in your role as the, as, as one of the leaders on the, on the state and,
and national level with with accreditation and and and and supervising the the the quality of
of programs um are you can you can you share with the board uh examples that you know of of
of programs where uh they did have a negative impact on the surrounding community because
of various troubles that they had inside their program well you could look i would just ask that
it be limited to his experience i agree yeah i wasn't in you know but you can get newspaper
articles of programs that if uh people have died i would object to newspaper articles
so so so steve i think he should answer his own experience not what he's read
So, Steve, I think he should answer his own experience, not what he's read, but his own experience of problems that he ran.
But he also he's also been a leader of the industry.
So he so he know he has personal knowledge of other programs that have come before.
Let him say his personal knowledge of a program.
So what it did.
So we have I am the policy chairman for the state organization.
We have ethical issues. And when programs go awry like that, I'm aware of it. And when they are, what we do is we try to help them change and do whatever they need to do. Or if they're not meeting the ethical standards of the organization, we ask them to leave. And that and that has happened before.
How many times have you done that? How many times have you done that?
At least six or seven times over. But that's been over 40 years. So it's not.
okay all right all right thank you so that's my personal where i've seen it happen that close up
i've seen it from a from a distance a little further away and what i usually do and i'll tell
you is when i see that happen i contact if i know the people i contact me i ask them how it happened
i would object to that so so yeah i i think you're finding out after this the fact too when
you start talking, making calls. So I think your testimony that you observed your own self about
six programs over 40 years, basically have a problem that had to close. Is that right?
Yeah, that I was involved in them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
I've seen many other programs close. I just didn't.
Well, let's just stay with the ones you had experience with. I think that's the better
way to look at it okay um mr parl to sum up um can you describe to the board what your uh in your
professional opinion what um are the what do you expect to be some of the negative impacts on the
community from from this program um as it's presently constant uh is it as it's presently
constituted with this leadership team i will still object to that that's speculating that's
asking oh the about the viability no it's not speculating when it's an expert witness
so look i i think i think we have an expert witness and i and i think he went person by person
and testified that he thought they lacked the kind of experience they've had and i think we
should leave it at that i think for him to say this is what's going to happen is a harder thing
to jump to and i think that he he went point by point well this one didn't have experience in
philadelphia this and that and i think we should leave it at that okay um my last uh area of
questioning mr harl is around the community benefits agreement um i'm going to share my screen
and i i i would like a proffer first because if he's he again he's an expert with programming
and not with land use.
So the profit is concerning the provisions
of the community benefits agreement
that would protect the community
and the types of community protections
that Mr. Harrell has created
and negotiated in his facilities.
He's never testified to his community engagement. He's only testified to programming. So maybe you should give a couple of questions.
I mean, I think he's testified that he's opened up numerous programs. So the question would be, Steve, during your time of opening up numerous programs, have you been involved in community benefit agreements?
Well, no, I mean, I was going to cross -examine Mr. Disley on the community benefits agreement. That's not possible because he hasn't appeared today. So my next best -
Yeah, but what I'm saying, Steve, over the years, Guidencia House has opened up a lot of places. He's met with communities. Have they done community benefits agreement? And if he has, then what's he think of this community benefit agreement?
Okay. I mean, I will ask that because that is your suggestion, but we are, but it's really not relevant what Godensia put in their community benefit agreement. It's relevant whether this community benefit agreement is actually going to deliver what they put together.
But I but I agree. But I think you've got to you've got to say that he has experience in the past of being involved in community benefits agreements and then look at this one.
Sure. All right. So, Mr. Harrell, let's start with that. Have you have you been involved with community engagement around the various facilities from Godenzia?
yes okay and in that in the in those in those encounters with community did you discuss um
Yes. OK. And in that in the in those in those encounters.
various uh protections or or um or or commitments that your agency would do to ensure a certain
level of quality of life or or lack of nuisance in the surrounding neighbors yes okay um did you
take a look at the community benefits agreement that's now up on the screen here yes all right
um in your opinion um does this community benefits agreement have uh the typical
mechanisms in it that would protect the community from residents in the programs that may that that
may create problems for neighbors objection he never laid a foundation as to his experience
he asked a general question so i know so so so i so i i think where we should be with this is that
he's looked at this and what's different between the ones that he's done in the past and this
all right so yeah mr harrell what do you think is missing um from from this community benefit
screen but that you normally would put into your commitments to the to the community
the only i i don't i don't i did not evaluate this in the way that you're discussing you know
i did do as i looked at it uh from our interactions that we've had with communities
and how we resolve things uh there is a whole section on here and how you address things that
is extremely um legalistic and would be i think would be very difficult for a community to
to follow through on uh you'd have to almost have a lawyer uh to do it and some of the communities
we're in don't have that kind of those kind of resources so so you're talking about the
the confidentiality provisions and the arbitration provisions?
Yes, sure.
So why don't we stay with Steve?
Let him be more precise as to what he thinks should have been.
Well, Mr. Harrell, is there anything?
Try not to lead him into that conversation.
Okay, I got it.
Mr. Harrell, is there any provision in this community benefits agreement that you've seen
that specifically addresses the behavior
and the conduct of the residents
in connection with the surrounding community?
Yeah, I think there's a little bit there,
but it's just that when it's not,
there is a community's concerns hotline involved
in that proposal,
which I think is probably a good thing.
There's a zero tolerance policy.
uh you know there's a residency restrictions uh my concern would be the enforcement of those
things i just got done testifying that there might be problems with these things i looked at
what what does the community do when those things are not being when there's a problem with those
things and that's where i got to the uh uh the section of the document where it talks about how
do you uh arbitration and things like that so that right well the zero tolerance policy let's
look at that directly um does the zero talents policy refer at all to behavior of the of the
residents of negative behavior towards the neighbors no but it but it talks about trying
to i think what you're you were trying to talk about here is that uh if residents do something
and are you going to do something about it?
You know, that's the...
Well, the zero tolerance policy here
just refers to zero tolerance for drug use
and alcohol use among the residents.
I think he's trying to lead him.
He asked, he answered the question,
even raised in his statement, I quote,
he says that zero tolerance policy is a good thing.
So now I sense that Steve...
We don't, we don't,
we're not seeing the zero tolerance policy
is not a good thing.
So Steve, Steve, listen.
Listen, try not to lead him. Let him testify to his own knowledge and what he's concerned with.
Is there anything in this community benefits agreement that would allow for a speedy resolution of issues that typically might come up between residents of a treatment facility and the surrounding neighbors?
Again, that's speculating, you know, no, I'm asking for provisions in the in the community benefits agreement that deal with speedy resolution of problems.
So I thought that he testified before he was more concerned about, in my mind, how do you execute?
He testified before he was more concerned about, in my mind, how do you execute this? Are there problems on how to execute this community benefits agreement? And I think he's shaking his head. And I would leave it at that. Look, here's the benefits agreement. Here's the issues I think will be hard to execute. And I think that's where he was trying to say.
Okay, I do want to just clarify, if I can, Mr. Chair, that is one of your concerns, Mr. Harrell, around the speediness of the resolution of these problems?
Yes, and also how they would know, for example, the zero tolerance.
How would they know that that zero tolerance policy was not being enforced?
You know, so my assumption would be that there would be an incident.
And if there's an incident, how do you deal with that quickly and effectively?
Is that a better way to...
Well, yeah, because the cure period, if we look here,
if there's an allegation of a breach of the agreement by the developer,
there is a cure period of 60 days to cure it,
and then they can extend it for another 60 days
with written notice to the association saying why they want to extend it.
So we're talking 120 days to address something, which, I mean, Mr. Harrell, in the facilities that you have that are close to families and other houses, is it unusual or somewhat, it just happens some of the time that there are encounters between residents and community members where people get some kind of feelings of upset or concern?
usually uh people uh hear rumors about things so you have to have a rumor control so you have to
have immediate response uh to to those kinds of things and in other times they may think that
something that happened in the neighborhood was done by one of your clients when it was somebody's
son down the street so you have to deal with them right away and if you let them go
from some period of time uh and you get into a legalistic if you don't try to resolve those
problems uh you end up uh with with the dissatisfied people in the neighborhood which
is an impact on the program you have to have a good relationship with that community regardless
you know regardless and what we usually do is we bring people in that have had where we have
locations and have them speak to the community and resolve and talk about how do we resolve
how to how have these issues been resolved with us and then that becomes the degree that we agree
to do that i give community members my the leader of that organization my my business my personal
they didn't have to go through 12 levels of people to get to me i mean if they had to but
But the process is not legalistic.
Mr. Masters, I don't want to brush your case here, but how much longer do you think you need for this witness?
I think that was the end of my direct examination.
So we are doing good timing.
Thank you.
Darwin Cross.
Mr. Carl.
How many community benefits agreements that you personally executed?
i don't know i don't have i don't have a number you know is it more than five i'm objecting that
there's no relevance here um oh he spoke about and you insisted that he
steve i think he can ask that question and i think i think mr hall has answered by saying
he didn't know yeah so usually uh in in in that regard there is it gets built right into the
zoning to be honest with you there the agreements were made at zoning hearings where we said this
is what we'll do and that's and so you go back to the zoning board and say these guys have violated
the zone i mean that's a better way to uh okay and and i appreciate that so you've seen zoning
granted with some sort of proviso that says that the community has a quicker turnaround time
well beyond dealing with issues well not just that but also i think there's uh some uh you know
sex offenders will they be allowed in the program what will what will you do with drug use some of
the things but but but let's just stick because i think opposing counsel was talking about the
provisions for enforcement so you and i heard you say that zoning that the zoning board would take
care of it. So I'm asking you, have you seen that zoning approvals will say, oh,
that zoning approvals will say oh enforcement has to be done this way yes okay i i'm objecting
enforcement has to be done?
because we're talking about many different zoning hearing boards under the the and and that's fine
he's trying to answer my question okay
mike yeah can you restate the question so i can yeah i heard you say that when i asked
how you said that zoning boards will take
care of those provisions that you spoke about
with our CBA. No, usually, usually these things
are discussed. And then I asked
is it that the zoning board will put this information
and make it part of their zoning approval? Have you seen that?
No. Sometimes yes, sometimes not.
Okay. So even though that's the zoning approvals, it's purely a land use issue. You're saying that they'll put in stuff about enforcement for CBA.
right so that's right and so i think your your council was ready to object because
a it it most likely applied to outside the city of philadelphia
um no i don't know about that i mean it was in the city i'd have to go yeah the city of
philadelphia is not always operated the zoning board you have today you know keep so uh okay
oh i don't know i'd have to go research that day okay all right well let me just tell you that
something like that that's made part of a zoning approval would not be enforceable so let me ask
you this you've been i'm objecting to you to you on putting legal statements on the record i i i'm
still on cross. From 1988 to 2020, you were president, president, executive director of
Condensia, correct? Yes. All right. How many facilities did you open in, 3 .1 facilities did
you open in Delaware? None. None. How many facilities did you open in Delaware? Four.
four how many of them are open now two how many did you closed under your presidency
one two programs in the same building one building okay what that building no if the
plans to close it were there when i left but it didn't close till afterwards the new okay
closed so i did not close them okay i've not actually i've only closed uh
two or three programs in my whole history so okay so the programs that that the programs that did
close and eventually closed um and they weren't 3 .1 what was their what happened to the real estate
i'm object and what what's the possible relevance to to this to to this application this is a land
use issue so i'm just curious as to why his programming it it's all linked together if you
can link our programming to our use of group living for a facility that has been group living
since 1950 i think i can have the right to ask him what happened to the property for a program
that he closed in dollar he's not he's not on trial here he's not an applicant so so so steve
listen i think he can answer that question if he knows i mean maybe they were rented properties i
don't know if he knows it's still there property is still there it's still was it rented it's it
was it's still owned by condense okay um why not unless they sold it last week you know so i don't
to my history and by the way that doesn't mean it won't reopen as something else
so you're absolutely right but you're not there right so when when did you open your first 3 .1
facility when i'm asking when i i don't i'd have to go do a little research so
uh a long time ago so a long time ago okay um now just in terms of where
or Pennsylvania or Maryland or
where. All right, let's
just stick with Philadelphia.
We've opened, probably, I've opened
during my tenure, 90 programs.
programs. Of that,
Of that, four of those programs are in Philadelphia. There are 3 .1 that I opened. Four of the programs in Philadelphia and probably 12 to 15 around the state.
four of those programs are in
Philadelphia, they're 3 .1.
Okay. So you've only opened four 3 .1 programs in the city of Philadelphia.
Yeah. And 10 to 12 3 .5s, which is the same license.
Okay, but I'm just sticking with 3 .1. Now, with the 3 .1s, were they open simultaneously? Were they all operating concurrently?
They opened at different times.
at different times okay and
and since they opened at different times
talk to me about the location where where were they
i'm objecting to this i don't know he has actual experience and knowledge
as the executive director he already stated he opened four
So here's the issue. I think he can answer if he remembers where the three or four were. I don't see anything wrong with that.
So we've opened one in Kensington. We opened one in Broaden, Washington and South Philadelphia. We opened one in Germantown and Wayne Avenue. And we've opened the fourth one at DRC, which is in North Philadelphia.
Okay, so the one in South Philly, how many, did Cadenzia own the property?
No, was that a lease?
So did you have to get?
It's a federal government property.
It was a federal government property.
Did you, did, what were the uses as of right, or did you have to go before the zoning board?
No, we went through Anna Verna, who used to be the city council president.
We went through them.
There was not a zoning application that was there by right.
But we had to still make sure the community knew.
We had to make sure that the state city council member, council president, city, what do you call it, the state representative, we went to everybody.
The community was not, actually, it was a cinder block company that made cinder blocks next door to us.
it had been a motor pool for the united states uh government and it still is it's still owned
by the federal government okay so so he has to take care of the building too they've so great
so there was really you didn't have to do a community benefits agreement there no okay um
so well we had to we had to
do whatever Anna Werner wanted us to do you know what I mean so yeah and that we made commitments
to to her about what we would do and what we wouldn't do that we would be the whole the whole
the same thing we would have had same discussion with her as we would with his own board so but
So it was never, it was the, you never had to execute a document.
Exactly.
The, the.
Facility.
Well, let me just ask you this.
What has been your relationship with ATM?
And American treatment network.
so the only thing you know about them is what you
testify to that you just did a basic google search
no not a basic google search i went to their website i went to their licensing
i went to uh uh look them up and all you know i did a research on the background and also by what
they said they were you know so get now just getting back to the facility in south philly
real quick um did you the one that he opened or the one that he opened the one that he right
you know it's been open for a very long time so you know and that's great right because that's
why i want to focus on it because i think you have a lot of history with it you you you stated
that you worked with Anna Verna
and to make sure that the community was fine.
Was your staffing already put in place?
What do you mean staffing?
The staff for the facility
was from other facilities
that had expertise
that could move there before we opened.
that could move there before we open it that's that's not what i'm asking i'm asking okay
That's not what I'm asking.
I'm asking that.
i'm asking that when you were in discussions with anna verna and it still wasn't you know
i presume the lease wasn't signed yet did you have staffing in place
we had a staffing plan of who we had a staffing plan yes great done similar work i mean and that's
And that's fine. But you had a plan, right? You didn't have people hired or anything like that.
I'm objecting that that's asked and answered.
Yeah. And I was trying to get him to complete his answer. So when it comes to the, oh, yeah, that's what I wanted to ask. How many residents were at that South Philly location?
25 25 now the what was the capacity um there was a first floor and a second floor we turned we
didn't we would use the uh first floor in the winter time for the city would uh asked us to
bring in home homeless women on the first floor of the building so we had separate entrances
but um that was it the capacity was was larger it might have been for 35 40 people okay and at
the winter time they you know during code blue you as a courtesy you would go to capacity okay
and and was anyone worried about the nature of the type of residence during code blue
was anna verna ever concerned about the the residents uh with the coat if no if she was
uh we would get a phone call and it would get i would get her did you put her on notice
no she yeah she knew no no the city of philadelphia operated the facility so anything
we did there had to go through the city of philadelphia coordinating office for drug and
alcohol program. That's why I was saying this is a complex thing. We have to deal with them before
we even... But it takes a lot of planning. Yes. Right. And it sounds like for the facility in
South Philly, you decided to get the location first, secure that, and then you had a staffing
plan and then you you made sure you got your staffing plan in in place and then you execute it
once you knew that you received the property you understood the programming and then you was ready
to to execute on the project no it was a little more complex than that so we had to get multiple
city approvals to do that including the coordinating officer we had to get when you
asked about a benefit you started off by asking about a benefit agreement there was more to
opening a program than a benefit agreement so so once the it once we had the the right to be there
then we had to go set up a contract with the city of philadelphia to do this we had to get agreement
then we had to get financing to to renovate the property by the way so we went and renovated the
property uh we had to talk to the state of pennsylvania and get licensed for this for the
state from the state then what we had to do is we already had by that time we had identified
and the management team had agreed had done market research to show that that program could
could uh could survive with the per diems and the amount of money we got from medicaid and other
places so that we had a funding a financial plan for the facility and so it wasn't just a wasn't
just the staffing plan staffing plan was the probably the easiest part of this operation than
any other one uh it was not difficult but then again we had people that knew about three ones
that we were aware of the random and other programs that we talked to before we opened we
went and got expertise from outside uh that actually knew how to do this stuff before we
after after you secure the property right and i think what you just said was wonderful because
that's exactly what the applicant is doing so and correct me if i'm wrong you say secure the
property get the city approvals get the additional get the state licensing get your financing then
even come back and revisit your staffing plan to put that in to put that in place and if necessary
go and get outside expertise to help with that stuff.
But we also, you know, so you know,
the marketing plan was critical to us even going to Anna Verner.
So before we went to her, we knew where the funding would come from.
so before we went to her we knew where the funding would come from and she knew because we were able
to tell her so again keep that in mind that there was a a viable uh a plan for the operation of this
program before we even talked to her because we would have went to a different site we already
had the plan to open this program if it couldn't have been at this site it would have been at a
different way so but you as executive director president of condensia you know you can almost
chose that site today yeah because you're the 300 pound gorilla in in in southeastern pennsylvania
no so don't know there's someone bigger i have more power than the city of philadelphia
i'm just saying in in the service that condensio did bring uh you you're everyone knows condensia
All right. So let me just ask you this. Since, because you mentioned earlier about our staffing plans, are you familiar with how the standards have changed since COVID?
Yes. Okay.
I'm still the policy chairman of the Drug and Alcohol Service Providers of Pennsylvania, and I'm also presently the chairman of the Recovery Organization of Pennsylvania.
okay i'm aware of but i don't i don't read the documents day to day so but i do i'm aware of
the difficulties that our programs are having and some of the issues that they're up against right
now now let me let me let me ask you because you also said earlier that you typically do not
um do not uh testify in in the current capacity you're always a pro applicant um
why now because i i i looked at the plan and you're not the only one that's uh that's
following a civil all of a sudden people have decided that uh the city of philadelphia
is a good location that we should come to and uh there's a about four or five different you're not
the only one trying to open in philadelphia simultaneously without applying so you've decided
to pick and choose no i've decided to uh bring up the issue that before you go around opening
these programs you should have the expertise to open them and we or you should at least follow
the steps that you did to open
South Philly because if
we did those
things to which we are
but those aren't land use
issues, those are
other issues dealing with financing
I guess you wouldn't have a problem
let me ask you this
I didn't ask
I'm objecting
that's argumentative
you're basically arguing
So, listen, I think, Michael, respond when you ask the question.
When he's done, it's done.
Is that okay?
I don't want Darwin to proceed.
All right.
So, so when it comes to, so are you, are you aware that going back to Delaware, that
the facilities that you started that in order to maintain them they had to get a consultant
to maintain them are you aware of that no no i heard you say earlier i heard you say earlier
that chris devaney consulting in delaware was i right about that i didn't hear that i didn't say
that okay all right then yeah question um all right no problem no problem so the um
the uh um have you ever been named in a lawsuit in your capacity as a
as president of
Gondensia.
Objection. There's no relevance
to this.
When we had our
witness, he
actually demanded that he
shows all of these
documents
that were allowed.
And so I think it
goes to, it's
fair to ask if he's ever been
named in a lawsuit.
well it's harassing a witness to to someone who's in a civil civil proceeding to ask them
if they have been um that's just harassment so you get to do it so let's look so here
so here's where i am on this i think darwin could ask the question during the course of
doing business for your long career have you ever been involved in a lawsuit i mean that's what it
or have you ever been named in a lawsuit and i and i think that's an easy question to answer
and i employment law you know like uh somebody yeah i can't want to consume you for anything so
many times and mostly almost all employment law okay has any of condensative facilities
in philadelphia or elsewhere been cited by local authorities for like uh violations with their
property yes okay of course yeah um has has has has adenzia under your leadership um
had actions filed against it for for billing issues no not that not that i'm aware of but
Not during my watch.
All right.
No further questions.
Steve, do you have any follow -up?
I have a few, Mr. Chair.
So let me tell you where we are.
I'd like to get at least another one of your clients
to win today, Steve,
because I'm targeting 12 -15.
We're going to finish up.
And we do have tomorrow,
we have 40 cases
and I have to have the staff ready for tomorrow too.
So let's, I think we've got about a half hour left. Let's see what we get done in this half hour.
All right, Mr. Harrell, just a couple questions.
Darwin was asking you about your, the steps that you took to open up the facility in South Philly when Anna Verna was the council president.
In your view, did this facility that we're here on today, did they take those same steps and have the same type of plan that you?
On the applicant's actions. You should ask the applicant that question. How can he? How can he answer a question that requires the applicant's actions?
He I'm asking, I'm like, I don't understand the objection, Mr. Chair.
Ask the question one more time, Steve.
All right. Mr. Harrell, Darwin asked you about the specific steps you took to before you opened up a facility in in South Philadelphia under when Anna Verna was the the the president of council.
And you have you have made some opinions about the steps and the planning that this current applicant has done.
But can you compare the two, what Gaudenzia did in South Philly to what this applicant has done so far?
Can you compare it and say whether it's the same or different?
Objection.
So, Darwin, I think he can do that.
I think he can say what was different.
And I think, and I would think he could say what's different because starting off, there was no zoning process for that.
am i correct didn't he testify that he never went to the zoning board for the one in south
philadelphia correct so why don't we why don't we he can tell us what the difference was
so we we have other facilities three ones in philadelphia and we did go to the zoning board
for them and were approved and different but he's asking about this one in south philadelphia so
what's the difference between the one in south philadelphia and what's being done on more
We responded to an RFP. The city wanted us to do, asked us to do this work, but it was our job to get the approval. It was not something we thought up. You understand what I mean? So we already knew that there was funding. Number one, it might not have been exactly what we wanted. We had to verify everything. There was an RFP we had to respond to, that we had to competitively.
we had our plan had to be in writing with the city before we did it you see what i mean so
it was different this is different it would be different if we just said
we're located we're going to open up in um cumberland county pennsylvania and uh we think
you guys need a program and we're going to open up there you know what i mean so let me yeah let
Let me ask you specifically about the staffing plan, because you testified that that you chose certain people in the staffing plan to move to this new facility from some of your other facilities.
in the staffing plan to move to this new facility from some of your other facilities right
Right.
so i wanted you to compare the background and the experience of the people that you
put in your staffing plan to the people that we know that are on the staffing plan of
the applicant right now uh other than uh chris and he has some limitations they have no they
had no they they have no background in this that's that i can see very limited very limited there
there is a consultant they have that is doing that is doing hiring or or or in charge of the
staffing plan right the the revive uh yes right and i didn't in the dot by the way i don't know
that what i do know is what i what i read that that came from those documents that you have with
uh the councilman and the the uh the stuff that was submitted prior to uh chris devaney's testimony
right um so but what's your opinion on the uh if if there's any equivalence between the people that
you chose to staff your south philly location and the people that they're choosing to staff
their their location at south philly i think the management team is different i mean the management
team had expertise our management team had expertise our board of directors had expertise
and the regional director and the local director had expertise in doing this before so it wasn't
wasn't a new venture for any of them for anybody you know what i mean the different the new venture
was was um was operating in south philadelphia it's probably the newest part of the thing and
By the way, Anna Vernon was the city council president, but also Joe Vignola was the first person we had to go to because he was the, what do you call it, the city councilman at the time.
Right.
So we had to go through a whole process to get to where we got.
Let me ask you about the provisos, the conditions that you talked about in the earlier part of the cross -examination, where you mentioned that in other occasions, sometimes the zoning boards that you went to would put some conditions on the grant of your zoning for these facilities.
In this case.
They were usually limited.
so so you you know any any other agreements were made between us and the okay and the same way that
you did here in meetings where where it would be documented right responses well so in this
in this proceeding you are taking the position um that the zoning board should just vote no on this
instead of putting conditions on it right i didn't i don't have that that's that's your i'm not
i'm testifying as an expert witness i'm not right
that's their they they have a lot of other things to consider than just
my testimony i understand um all right i have i have no further testimony i go across uh direct
redirect on him just one you're done question you know um mike right you know you were asked
to compare what steps you took compared to what steps we we've taken it's safe to say that you
have no idea what we did in terms of um getting ready for um our financing am i correct no i i
everything you presented there was no evidence that that happened yeah so you don't know right
so no i don't know like would you share would you have shared that as executive director yes
yes your discussions with banks what's that your discussion with banks in order to get
the construction loan oh you mean share that yeah finance i thought you meant financing of
the actual program itself you're talking about the construction and buying the building and all that
yeah um it would be hard for us not to because we're a public agency you know and we have a
board of directors and you know so it's not unreasonable and usually the financing would
come from our bank along with other funders you know what i mean so the city might be funding
some portion of it pnc bank might be portioning someone so it usually wasn't there was no secret
operation going on but i wasn't talking about financing of your building i i don't know
anything about that all i know is there is i was looking for the financing of the actual operate
day -to -day operations of the programs that's what i was looking for okay so but so it's safe to say
So but so it's safe to say that that that's something that probably wouldn't readily be shared.
that uh um
Right.
Entity.
And then you also mentioned.
Now, actually, that's that's I'm fine with that.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you for your testimony.
Steve, who do you have next?
Sarita Sini.
and we have a proffer for me for the interest of time can we have a proffer
um she's in we have a whole exhibit binder on on her on her powerpoint
then i object because i don't see any relevance to to her testimony if if if according to is she
a near neighbor yeah she's she's um an extremely near neighbor and she is testifying about her
her concerns and her research into the project yeah and it's i object to the research right
they're based on why don't we do this why don't we let her start testimony and you're
when you object you object and uh steve how long do you think you need for her uh hang on
i would imagine 10 minutes well why don't we do this let's let's shoot for 10 minutes
and if we have to because we're breaking at 12 15 you know we we've been into this for a couple
hours and what we could do then start the cross the next time we get back okay so why don't why
don't we bring her on so rita cini has been allowed to speak i could you please also be a
panelists. Sure. And he's coming in. Yep. Hi, could you state your name, please, and spell for the
court stenographer? It looks like she's muted.
Can you unmute yourself, please?
Sarita Sini, you're free to speak, and you're unmuted.
Hi, could you please state your name?
It's spelled for the court stenographer.
it looks like she might be having audio issues
about Derek Ayers
wait a minute I see it's coming up there
Sarita
maybe she's logging in as a
panelist and there's
a buffer or something
we can't seem to get her it might be a problem if we want to reconvene how about derek airs is
that person uh no business chris nevin we can have okay so just for pointing the
in first bring chris steven on but remember we have an extensive letter from chris right yeah
we and so what i'm saying maybe you could you know we know where chris stands and i
i think we just lost the chairman
we did we're going to try to get him back oh no
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Bill from IT?
can you please send him another link this link is now not working thank you okay
Thank you.
Thank you.
Hilary, Zoom may be having a slight issue.
It seems to be taking a long time to resend.
It's not giving me the confirmation yet.
All right.
I'll let the chair know.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I just asked you a question in the chat.
Okay, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It seems to have gone through that time.
Let me know if he gets it.
Okay, thank you.
i have no idea what happened there zoom just kicked me out so um okay so
um we're now at 1205 who do you want who do you want to put on see just get started um in in the
interim, when you got kicked out, Sarita Sini was able to come back into Zoom. So she is available
to... Why don't we bring that person back? Okay. Can we also get her address? I will.
Thank you.
I don't see her in the attendees. She was...
i saw her a moment ago she's no longer in the audience he appears not to be all right so then
chris um nevin he is hi mr nevins could you please state your name and spell for the course
stenographer. Yes, Christopher Nevin, C -H -R -I -S -T -O -P -H -E -R -N -E -V -I -N.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
I do. Mr. Nevin, are you a close neighbor? I am.
What's your location? 1730 South Best Street, about four doors down from Cavern.
Mr. Masters, please start. Yes, okay, I'm going to show my story.
And just for a point of information, we do have a letter from Mr. Nevin, too.
Mr. Nevin, I'm first going to ask you.
Let me get.
All the way.
There we go.
Mr. Nevin, are you familiar with this petition that I'm showing on the screen?
Okay. Were you one of the people that circulated the petition?
Correct.
Okay. When did this petition get circulated?
About two weeks ago, I'd say. Three weeks ago.
okay and what um neighbors for responsible development what what is that organization
Okay. And what Neighbors for Responsible Development
uh that's the group i guess we've given our name uh as near neighbors to um be represented
by you in this in this hearing okay and the questions that you asked on this
on this um petition can you explain that to the board
so i'll try to be concise uh just stating there were you aware of this project do you support
this project did the rco or john disley contact you to speak about this project
uh though were you aware was a matter of if not only if people were aware of the original rco
meeting around it um but if they have heard anything at all about it um a second one is
pretty straightforward and the third um was born out of mr disley's testimony and a conversation
i had with him that he said he went around and he spoke to near neighbors especially on the
immediate block of the project and i wanted to take the time to go knock on doors and say hey
did you ever did anyone from the rc speak with you or did john speak with you okay so the first
column here the n would be that you these people weren't even aware of the zoning project before
you gave them the the petition uh before uh prior to that i guess that january meeting i should say
okay and then this is whether they support or oppose the zoning project and then uh this is
whether john disley the head of the rco contacted them yeah if they communicated at all okay so
you have multiple pages of this petition is that correct correct okay so in circulating so this is
this one is the 500 block of more which is which is obviously right on the same block as the as
the property you are south fifth and you say you're like four four houses away yeah okay then
And this next petition is the 400 block of Seagull.
How close is that to the property?
It's adjacent.
So it sort of touches 1800 of South 5th.
That's right next to 500 block and more.
The 400 block of Seagull I was talking about.
Yes, yes.
It's right there.
It's right next to me.
So in this case, all of these people are saying that they don't support it.
and they're also saying that they were not contacted by mr disley correct um this is more
the 400 block of seagull and these are also all in opposition and they were not contacted by the
can i ask the relevance of this because one i never even received these petitions
So, one, I object to them being used at all. And two, let me finish my objection. If he is saying that these petitions are here to highlight a neighborhood dispute, then I don't understand the relevance.
first these were emailed to you on friday evening second um you were you offered you offered um mr
disley's testimony um to represent the community and to and in his testimony he lied multiple times
by saying that other organizations and other to that right because the please don't call a witness
a liar when he's he's not even here well so we would have clarified it if had he been here today
we would have gone through his testimony and we would have you can look at the at the letters that
we have in our exhibit binder that i'm going to review at the end of our presentation to show you
that in fact there are no elected officials who support this project there are no other rcos that
support this project so it all right so steve we're we're going to let the we're going to let
continue we can continue with the with the the survey that he did the signing i mean basically
this is basically says are you for the project and have you heard from the rco is what what i
see and these are the these are the most close neighbors all all around the project um that
specifically these blocks are are the closest um there's there's quite a bit of of signatures and
they all are are in opposition so so just for a point darwin i this is in my mind this is not
calling mr disley a liar this is saying this this this is differs from what he said period
um so mr nevin do you want to just um briefly summarize your letter and and the concerns that
your letter and and the concerns that you have yeah i mean yeah i guess i'm not gonna go through
you have yeah i mean yeah i guess i'm not gonna go through the
the the entire thing but um i wanted to come with specific points to the board mr chairman
Thank you.
um and they were really this idea of pedestrian and traffic safety um also um this contradictory
thought of with that pedestrian traffic safety of seven parking spots for staffing let alone when i
I heard from testimony from Mr. Devaney last time that for a facility this size, you should
have 30 people, which seemed inconsistent either way.
And then additionally, really coming down to the, I feel like the bad faith efforts
between the RCO reaching out to the community and extending that further to the applicants
and the communication we had with them.
Is that it, Steve?
well you had wanted to kind of wrap up by 12 15 mr chair so yeah yeah okay all right so
so when we come back uh darwin you have a chance to um cross okay the next time um we will figure
out when that next time is and we will be in touch with both you within um a couple days okay
Mr. Chairman, I understand. I know what you're going to say.
Yes. And I have to restate it for the record.
OK. Restate it for the record.
This is hanging by thread. And and I think that that, again, I I've asked for the objectors case to be dismissed simply because I know they're just trying to run out the clock.
We've been transparent from the beginning, and we had to do a tremendous amount of leverage in order to appear today.
So I'm asking that the board please reschedule us within the next five days so we may be able to continue and resolve.
I don't know that I can promise in the next five days, but we will take everything you said into consideration.
We have been trying to move this.
I think Mr. Masters had his expert on for a while, and you had a chance to really cross him for quite a while.
So we will be in touch.
And, Mr. Chair, if I may, we are not trying to run out the clock.
We do respect this board and its deliberations, but we are very concerned when opposing counsel is making insinuations that our testimony, that our opposition is not valid and is not based on the actual concerns that we're raising.
um it's opposing counsel has several times might made motions to this board to eliminate all
opposing witnesses and to not let us testify at all and unfortunately that seems to be indicative
of of this applicant and this project where they are not doing community engagement well
they are not planning well they do not have a team that knows what they're doing and that's why
we've been hearing that all along and i i hear both you this is what we're going to do we're
going to get back to you as soon as we can. We'll let you know where we stand. If you want to know,
I thought you both worked a little bit better today together than we have in the past. So I
appreciate that. I appreciate Mr. Nevitt's testimony that it was short and concise, and I
would hope you continue that same way with the rest of your witnesses. And then I think we could
start to get into some closure. Okay. Thank both of you. Okay. All right. Is there anyone in the
virtual audience whose 930 case has not been called?
I see no hands at this time, Chair. Thanks, everyone.
Thanks, Chair. Good job, Chair.
Good day.