COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, May 13, 2004 1:20 p.m. - - - - RESOLUTION 040378 - Resolution authorizing the City Council Committee on Public Safety to hold hearings on the possible expansion of Section 10-608 of The Philadelphia Code to include the posting of the photographs and names of individuals accused or found guilty of soliciting prostitutes. PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER, Chair COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI, Vice Chair COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 I N D E X RESOLUTION 040378 JOSEPH JAMES, Deputy Commissioner Dept. of Public Property.......... RANDY HOFER, Impact Services.......... 14 ROSE WILSON, Kensington Business Association....................... 19 HAQNAWAZ CHUGHTAI..................... 20 DAE JU (ph)........................... 22 HARRY KIRCHNER........................ 22 VALERIE LEWIS......................... 29 SHARON WHALEY......................... 36 SYLVESTER JOHNSON, Police Commissioner 43 KAREN SIMMONS, ESQ.................... 51 3 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378
Good afternoon. The Committee on Public Safety's public hearing is now in session. We have a quorum. In attendance are Councilman Frank Rizzo, Councilwoman Joan Krajewski, and to my right, Councilman Rick Mariano. Will the Clerk please read the title of the resolution.
Resolution authorizing the City Council Committee on Public Safety to hold hearings on the possible expansion of Section 10-608 of The Philadelphia Code to include the posting of the photographs and names of individuals accused or found guilty of soliciting prostitutes.
Thank you. We have a number of people here to testify. We can start with Commissioner Joe James from Public Property. Would you please come up to the witness table, identify yourself for the record, and proceed with your testimony.
Good afternoon. My name is Joseph James, Deputy Commissioner for the 4 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 Department of Public Property. Good afternoon to the Chair and Members of Council. I do not have any written, but I am here to speak to the specific issue of the technical capability of using the City's government access channel to display the photographs of the individuals identified in the resolution. I just want to preface my comments, my comments are not considered policy or do not speak to the legal matter associated with doing this, but only to the technical capability. Technically, we run 90 percent of our program is what we consider an electronic bulletin board. And of that electronic bulletin, we post photographs of different programs throughout the City along with printed material associated with that program. We are set up in our government access studio to work with the department or agencies associated with doing this to help them design the format of the material, help them to take photographs in certain formats that we need to be able to put it on the channel, work with 5 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 them with on the display of the content and the frequency at which the material will be displayed. We have the capabilities to run it hours, 365 days a year. That's basically 6 to speak to the technical part of whether or 7 not we could accomplish what City Council is 8 intending. 9 I'm open to any questions that you 10 may have. 11
Does any 12 Councilmembers have any questions of this 13 witness? 14
Thanks for your 18 help, Commissioner. So basically without all 19 the legal mumble jumble, with your technical 20 expertise, you could do this if the City so 21 desires to do it? 22
YOU would just 24 do that bulletin board, as you call it, and the pictures of the people who we are trying 6 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 to get or the pictures of 17 Council people could be on there and you could run them once every hour, once every five minutes, whatever we so deem?
Yes. We would just need to work with whoever owns the organizations when they have the material to set it up.
Do you need special pictures for that, or can you just take pictures right out newspaper? Could you use the mugshots from the Police station?
If they're digitized, then we can use them if they're digitized. We prefer them in a digitized format, they're easy to work with.
This really is a serious issue when you start putting people's pictures on television or even in the 7 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 newspaper. We're worried about digitized pictures for photo enforcement for going through a red light. Not that anyone's going to tinker with the digital pictures, but I'm more concerned who's going to be the last say before you push the red button that puts the stuff on television to make sure you got the right guy? Because let me tell you, you wouldn't want your picture or my picture to somehow accidentally get on television. So how confident are you if we move forward with this that this is really bullet proof? Because we could get sued. We could ruin a family. There's so many things you could do destructive here meaning to do well. So I am really concerned. The concept is good. It's already in the newspaper. I would hope that there would be some check and balance that everything that -- nothing that's not in the newspaper never gets on television. Commissioner, are you confident that this can really be foolproof, and I'm even going to use the word 100 percent foolproof, with no question? 8 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378
Councilman, to answer year question from a technical standpoint, there's certain assumptions we have to make. The assumptions are that we're getting the information that's being provided to is coming from a legally authorized source. Assuming that we would be getting digitized photographs from the Police Department, ultimately they would have the provider of the source material and they would have to verify the accuracy of the material that they're sending to us. The purposes of the department is going to provide is basically to take that material after it's already been authenticated and certified to be appropriate and put it on the channel in a fixed format that previously described as a process. So can the Department of Public Property guarantee a hundred percent authenticity of the photograph that's being put up; no. But we assume that the source who is providing that and the source would have to be someone who is able to make kind of statement. So I can only say that technically we can make sure that once we take a digitized 9 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 photograph that the digitized photograph that's given to us is the original digitized and will stay in the format it was originally given to us.
The Police Department has a unit, I'm sure, that could send you the data that's signed off by the Police Commissioner. Because I would want the police Commissioner to be responsible for anything that's put on that City channel. Get you off the hook so you don't have to do any editing or compiling. Is there a way they can send you a disk or whatever that you plug in and you get something, a pass code that the police Commissioner has said this is accurate and it's his or whoever the Police Commissioner maybe, their responsibility, his or her responsibility, the buck stops with them if there's a mistake?
Councilman, I can speak to the way that we do it today with the departments, which I think speaks to the question that you ask. When we have a department who has to put something on the 10 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 cable channel, whether it's from the License and Inspections, Water Department, they want to put up some information or material, we sit down with them in a session and develop the format without the actual contents but what the format would be and we design a format. We then give it to the department. They are then responsible for taking that format, inserting the contents and then sending it to us. We then take that content and then put it into the system. So it would have to come from the Police Department, I assume, in a format that we would use.
My gut reaction was to be opposed to this, my gut reaction. And I have a feeling that the newspapers are going to lose interest in this after a while. Is this something -- and I'll ask the sponsor. Is this something we plan to do for years and years and years? Once the Daily News losses interest --
Councilman, I don't work for the Daily News and neither does anyone at this table. I personally don't care 11 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 what the Daily News does. I use it to line my bird cage, the same with the Inquirer. I watch all my news on Fox 29 and the other station. This is something we're going to follow through on. I can't expect him -- I mean, I know you, your question is good. But when all these people here testify, I think everyone here at this table is going to understand what it is to have this dirty, vile act happening on their doorstep and on their street. If we can be a little inconvenienced -- I trust this Police Department to an extent, about as much as I trust anyone to an extent. There are people over there that are professionals, because if they're not, they shouldn't be in that unit, whatever that unit is, the police photography unit. They could be able to get digital photographs, and if that digital photograph is marked Rick Mariano, it better have Rich Mariano's face when it goes on there. If it has your face instead, I'm sure there's 10,000 lawyers that will jump on that.
Well, I watch 12 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 Channel 6 and 29.
My final question. I'm sure that those folks sitting back there don't want to see somebody's picture that doesn't -- the bad people, that's fine. I just want to be absolutely as safe and sure as possible that somebody's not going to get victimized by it.
This is just our way of making sure that a problem that we've been dealing with for more than anyone else here is alive, for thousands of years, we've got to cut down on the demand side. The supply side is always going to be there. If we can scare these men from coming here and doing this vile act in her house and his house and in front of her business, we're going to be fine. And as long as it takes. If it takes 20 years, it will be on there 20 years.
But somebody top up, the Commissioner will sign off before it goes on television. 13 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378
I was hoping he was here today, but I think he's been called away. But I've had a lot of conversations with him and he thinks it's a good idea. And maybe I can get a commitment from you as a possible mayoral candidate, if you were Mayor, you would keep running it, right?
Well, I would have to have a little negotiation with you. We'd have to do some trading.
There been some system they're putting them in the newspaper. Someone must be signing off on those. Are there any other questions of this witness from any Committee member? (No response.)
Thank you, Mr. James. Let's note for the record that in attendance is also Councilman David Cohen. Can you call the next witness.
Yes, ma'am. Randy Hofer 14 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 from Impact Services.
Thank you for coming in. Please state your name and what organization you're representing.
Good afternoon, Council. My name is Randy Hofer from Impact Services. I'm the Director of Marketing there. I'm also representing the K and A corridor as manager for the strip. We did bring some businesses with us. And what I'm going to do is give you written testimony basically on the K and A Business Association position.
I'd like to paint a picture of a great day in the heart of the Kensington. The streets are clean. The 30 to 3200 block of Kensington Avenue is busy with shoppers of all ages. Business is brisk and families are together enjoying a stroll along the Avenue sampling food and beverages. 3500 15 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 people are coming to K and A because it's clean and safe. The local residents for the past three years have come out with their families and supported the K and A Market fest. They know there's a large police presence and volunteer veterans from Impact Services Corporation who help maintain a safe environment for their families. The K and A poster contest from the neighborhood elementary schools illustrates flourishing businesses with no vacancies and a multicultural tenant mix. The SEPTA elevated line pictured above brings shoppers to the corridor with an overall theme of community harmony. That's how the children picture it, and that's the way it should be. But this is not a typical day in Kensington. The problem is this is only one day. That's why with the 55 merchants from the K and A Business Association, they desire to see this customer traffic support. And we support this resolution and any efforts that may come out of it. 16 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 On a typical day, and especially in the evening, johns constantly drive up and down the Avenue looking for prostitutes. These johns also badger and proposition innocent females who happen to be on the street. And K and A strip is also a popular internet chat room with a place to look for action. The merchants know that their businesses have suffered greatly from the lack of customer traffic due to the stigma of prostitution on Kensington Avenue. It's simple. People don't feel safe to shop on the Avenue. Side streets are littered with condoms and families see sex acts in cars parked along their streets. The police are doing a great job to rid the johns and prostitutes. However, they need all our help by working together. We need the residents, merchants, police, and City Council to support this resolution. The back to school clothing business and children's shoe sales on the Avenue is especially distressed due to customer perception of K and A no longer being a nice 17 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 area to bring their family to shop. Business is also lost from our Avenue stores because the parents of school children shop with their kids at other locations. Another business that has lost sales due to perception is Dunkin Donuts. Customers just don't want to tolerate seeing prostitutes at all hours hanging around and propositioning customers just to support their drug addition. We must change the perception of Kensington Avenue. Walgreens made a major investment on Kensington Avenue in 2002. The Allegheny El stop is one of the busiest SEPTA stops. We need to take advantage of the traffic coming off of the El at Kensington and Allegheny. We need more than one attractive destination for these SEPTA commuters. They need to be attracted to walk the Avenue and stop at our variety stores and frequent our restaurants. Impact CDC, after four years of diligent effort, is moving forward with plans for revitalization of this area. The plan includes residential and commercial changes. We need help to attract new families and 18 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 businesses to the K and A area, and it must start with cracking down on prostitution and the resulting decay that accompanies it. The Kensington and Allegheny Business Association appreciated the opportunity to testify today and in keeping with our motto of our Fourth Annual Market Fest, this can be a great start to a new life in the heart of Kensington.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Hofer. So the prostitution solicitation is going on all day?
Well, obviously, it happens. You can visibly see it. The police do an excellent job to forward, to get it taken care of, but it is evident. I think the bigger picture here is the stigma that prostitution exists on Kensington Avenue whether it's day or night. That's the situation that we're interested in having this resolution move forward.
Are there any other questions for this witness? (No response.) 19 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378
Seeing none, thank you. Thank you for taking the time out to come in.
The next set of witnesses I'm going to call as a panel. I would like to call Rose Wilson, Harry Kirchner, Haqnawaz Chughtai and Dae Ju (ph).
Please identify yourself for the record and pull the Mike up close to you so we can hear you.
Hi, my name is Rose Wilson. I have a barbershop on the 900 block of West Moreland Street. I'm a block away from Ascension School, and every day I have hookers that are dropped off, pick up their drugs up on the corner of H and West Moreland. They relieve themselves outside my window. They're picked up by the johns every day, dropped off, and this goes on from maybe 11 o'clock in the morning until I leave there at 5. I know it's a lot worse after I get done work. I know they start waking up about 4 o'clock in the afternoon. Now, we've been fighting this for 20 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 over 10 years there. I'm a member of the business association plus town watch. We have done everything possibly human over there, and it's just not working. We need to do something drastic here.
My name is Haqnawaz Chughtai. I'm franchisee from 7-Eleven at Kensington Avenue. We have a problem on the prostitution and also I'm going to add one more point. The panhandling. The prostitution, the people are coming in taking those hookers and they're driving our customers away from our stores. We are losing our customers. I lost from last year 200 customers per day. So I don't think I can afford that and I can support my family. So please, we have to do something about this prostitution and panhandling. About the panhandling, we have panhandler out there. His name David Kincaid. I even gave him a notice of debarment and police took him to the police station. He refused to sign it. And police is trying to do everything possible they can, but he refuse 21 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 to do whatever. He said he is going to be there no matter. Police hands are tied. They cannot do anything more than -- they just arrest him, take him police station --
Not to interrupt you. Hold off on the panhandling. We're going to see the police commissioner. We'll have you talk with him if you can stick around. Maybe if he gets interested in that. And I just want to say -- you're 7-Eleven store is across from Diamond Furniture, right?
He has one of the, if not, the best pretzels on the Avenue. I don't know how they do it, but it's a place that's open hours a day. Good slurpies 19 too. I've never had any but Bruce Gordon from 20 Channel 29 always goes there when he's up 21 there and he tells me they're the best 22 pretzels -- I've had them. I understand. A 23 lot of prostitution stand in front of his 24 store. And when you chase them away, and I've chased a number of them away, there's people 22 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 constantly moving around there. Behind the scenes here we'll get you to talk to the Commissioner about the panhandling. We're interested in that too, but today is prostitution day, okay?
Thank you. MR. DAE JU (ph): I own the food store, Kensington Avenue, Humphries Market.
My name is Dae Ju (ph), Kensington Avenue, Humphries Market. I've been there about 13 years. Generally, prostitute bother people. What I mean is like say a roach, they come stores and bother us, bother people. So it's getting much better, but there's still persistent, you know, still there. Like bringing trouble like sometimes violence. My personal opinion is we need done for this soon as possible.
My name is Harry Kirchner, and I have a coin store on Allegheny Avenue, a half block off of Kensington. I'm more affected by the perception of the 23 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 prostitution because they don't walk on Allegheny Avenue. But I go to a couple of local coin clubs, and Councilman Rizzo has been to a few the meetings and the perception is --
And the people say they're afraid to come down to my store because every time it's on the news about the Kensington corridor with the prostitute, they're afraid to come in the area. And I'm sure it affects all the other businesses the same way. So like I say, you've got to get them out of there some how. And the women are afraid to walk the streets because they get propositioned. I see guys hollering out of the cars and honking their horns at them, even the young school girls get it. It's just really bad.
Don't 24 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 misunderstand my remarks. I'm not being critical of the Police Department here. But I would like to know anyone from the business community or involved in this issue, when you call 911 if you have a situation at your business or somewhere in your area, what kind of response do you get from the blue and white car? Well, they're almost all white now, there's very little color on them. The blue and white police car when you call 911, are you satisfied with the response that you get or is it strictly the sting operations that are arresting these people? Please comment on what happens when you call 911.
Councilman, I think we have some people in the next panel that talk about that, unless you want to.
When I call 911, they do respond. Our captain over there have been fabulous. They have been fabulous. But our neighborhood is just overwhelmed by everything Mr. Rizzo. I mean, it's just overwhelmed 25 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 between the prostitution mainly and the overall -- yes, they do respond. They move them.
Well, I don't think they can just arrest them unless they actually catch them.
Councilman if I could just on this for a minute. We can go through a whole day of problems at K and A between these little motorcycles and the prostitutes. I've been on this prostitute thing since I was elected wholeheartedly sometimes worse than others. I got to tell you, since they put it in the Daily News a couple weeks ago thanks, to Carla Anderson, it has gotten a little better, but it is far but going away. Policeman -- and the Commissioner is on his way. We'll hear him testify. The policeman, like anyone else, there are some police that never get out of the car. There are some policeman that go out of their way to 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 help out. This is seen to them as, Kensington Avenue, okay, I can stop this car here because there's kids in a car and pot smoke is 5 coming out and they're playing music real loud 6 or I can get this 40-year-old guy riding a 7 little mini scooter done Allegheny Avenue or I 8 can chase this prostitute. They got a whole 9 -- that's why we want to do this. We're so 10 desperate now that we're looking to cut down 11 on the demand, to embarrass these men, 12 whatever it is we can do so they don't keep 13 coming here so their life can change. I'm 14 sure some of the residents can tell you some 15 real horror stories. And the Councilman means 16 well here, but I want to move us along to get 17 you all the to say something. I'm let the 18 Police Commissioner speak for himself, so I 19 hope that's all right. 20 You're going to have cops that are better than others. You could have cops 22 hours a day on this. 23
And especially when 24 businessman 911, their access to the police dispatcher, I think they show screens what 27 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 area address so they dispatch it right away.
Thanks, Councilman. Let me tell you how bad it is there. I go on vacation two weeks ago. I'm in the airport somewhere else and it's six hours behind here. My City phone rings, I take it with me, and it's City Hall operator. She says "Councilman, I have so-and-so from this news station wants to talk to you. Now, it's o'clock in the afternoon where I'm at, but it's hours more in Philadelphia. "I'm at K and A, Councilman, it's a Friday night. I can't find any prostitutes." Now, my first thing is to say, "Well I'm glad or that sounds like a personal problem." But I said, "Walk north about a hundred yards, and if you don't find one, call me back." He still hasn't called me back so I suspect I found what he was looking for. I mean, this never ends. It gets worse in the spring, it gets better in the winter, but it never ends. I personally 28 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 counted last night. I went to a place 3 around the corner, Mercer Cafe down the 4 street, up Allegheny to Kensington, sure 5 enough, two here, three there, all color, 6 sizes, flavors, they're there. And there's cars pulling over right in front of my car that looks like an unmarked police car; in front of a marked police car two blocks away. This is desperation time for us to do this.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have to go. I do have another meeting to attend, but I would like to be recorded as voting aye on this resolution. Thank you all for coming in for taking the time because I do think that this issue is very, very important. I see it in my own area. And that's the beginning of the neighborhood falling down. It's the worse thing that could happen, and I sympathize with you and you have my full support on this.
Thank you, Councilwoman. 29 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 The next panel of witnesses.
And let me just say, it's just not Kensington Avenue. I can take you up to other spots, North Broad Street, South Broad Street, there's a lot of places we can go to. It's filtering out all over the City. I just don't want to say them out loud and there will be more people there tonight. You've got spots too, right?
Oh, yes. This is a problem that's City-wide actually. I think it's just more concentrated in some areas, but this is a problem that people have in all kinds of neighborhoods. You want to pull the Mike up to you, identify yourself and proceed with your testimony.
Hi. My name Valerie Lewis. I live in the 4000 block of North 12th Street. The prostitutes really have affected the quality of life for us. It's constant. 30 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 I actually purchased a property next door to my home to open it up as a business. They're almost deterring me from that. I've been in this community since about 1968, and the change is unreal. I left it briefly for about five years. But it's continuous. I call the police. If they ever had a log, I'm sure that my name and number comes up every night. I call between two and two times a night. I call between the hours of 12 midnight and 3 a.m., because I live on the corner and usually my window is cracked and I constantly hear it. We also have -- we're a little special. We have the homosexual prostitutes now. So they're dominating the area at night. It's constant. It's condoms on the ground. They defecate. They urinate. They tear down our neighborhood. The area itself, we're trying everything that we can to build our neighborhood back up, and they're doing everything that they can to tear it down. We have a huge problem with 31 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 vandalism and stuff because of the prostitution. And I'm only mentioning it because when they see prostitutes standing on the corner, they think that's somewhere they can dump trash at, and they do it. My husband cleans the front every morning. It's really -- it's terrible. And in response to what the police do, I can't say they don't come; they do. The problem is the amount of time it takes them to get there, they're usually just about gone or they hide behind cars or they do whatever they have to do so that the police don't catch them.
I know how busy our police are. And again, I'm not being critical. But if you see it, why don't you the police on patrol see it? I know Councilman Mariano is going to jump here any second. But I'm concerned 32 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 that our uniformed police on patrol, our special police that are out there to make these arrests because they need evidence to make an arrest, aren't they seeing -- and I'm asking a question here that you can't answer aren't they seeing what you see? And we need to maybe ask the Police Commissioner today -- and that system at police radio is very sophisticated and I know it well. They can prioritize, until we get this situation under control, the response. When a person calls to 911, they can raise the priority of that particular dispatch so it doesn't, what you just described occur, it doesn't take a long time. But they are so very busy going from point A and to point B that that is sometimes a delay. But the system itself -- I'm not even sure, Councilman, what the priority is when those are put into the computer, that kind of call. But I think I would appeal to the Police Commissioner to raise until we get this situation stamped out, this problem, raise the level of response so it gets a higher response. 33 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 We all know how it works. The most serious crime gets dispatched first, and you want the most serious crime to receive police attention. But we also want to make sure that three hours later the police don't show up to investigate something that's nonexistent, that's gone.
Councilman, if I could just on that, I would suspect --and I don't know her. I think Carla Anderson spoke to me a little bit about you. But if her husband was a policeman or her son and had to live there, things would probably change. The policemen are basically good. It's just something they don't see. If it was in front of your house or my house or the Mayor's house or Commissioner Johnson's house, it would end because of the stature we hold in the community, not that she doesn't -- I know you understand. His father was the Police Commissioner and the Mayor. He knows. He's playing devil's advocate. He's not trying to be bad. I know him well. But it's just something that -- 34 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378
I agree with the Councilman. What happens, when these young police officers come to that community, they see what we see. But when they spend hours 6 a day, 10 hours a day -- I've talked to police 7 officers at a particular intersection and four 8 of these high-powered motorcycles went racing down the street. I kind of turned and I was amazed that they weren't as outraged or focused. The officer said to me, "This goes on all day long. That's all we would be doing if we focused on that." So what I think Councilman Mariano is saying is that they get kind of into the community and what we think is a big deal isn't necessarily a big deal to them.
I think if the Councilpeople get behind this issue and get this advertised and put it on the cable television and the police officers see that Council is behind it, I feel that the police will respond differently. But if you have everybody sitting back not doing anything about it and not talking about it, it's not 35 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 going to change. Because, I mean, everybody here basically know that the problem exists. But we're there and nobody is doing anything about it. But you guys are in the position to make a difference by putting it on television, showing it so that the police officers know that this is a priority and that they have to take care of this.
It will certainly be good for the City cable TV ratings.
Well, the ratings, I'm not so concerned about the ratings as I am about my neighborhood. I could care less about the cable ratings; I care about my neighborhood.
We're concerned about your quality of life. That's why we're here. When your guys are done, the Commissioner is here. But I will tell you, this is the beginning of something. I can't see any Councilpeople voting against this and I can't see the Administration not wanting to do this.
Council has been aware 36 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 of this for quite a while. This is not new. My name is Sharon Whaley, and I live in the 1300 block of Colwyn Street. My mother has a home in the 4000 of Old York Road.
You guys are up near Old York and Luzerne near the bus depot?
Yes. Now, anybody who rides on Old York Road and Erie Avenue, you know you're going into a dark place. So Council is not just finding this out. This has been out there for a while. And I have seen -- you've got to remember when you're dealing with prostitutes, you're dealing with a whole other different mind. I have walked across that bridge at points and I have seen prostitutes out there. I've seen Highway Patrol out there stopping them, pick them up, and then they scream and yell "rape, rape." What is Highway Patrol to do? And I think they're the baddest ones; they're badder than the Philadelphia Police. And they can't control the prostitutes out 37 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 there because then the girls will go in and tell a lie about what they saw. I told them, "If you need a witness, I seen everything. But that doesn't always happen. They co go lie on the police. They go in and they will lie on the police. They will say, This one raped me, this one did that, he's been paid off." This has happened to us time and time again. So the prostitutes are picked up one night, they're back out the next. We have houses in the area that house the prostitutes. They con go in, turn their tricks and the people get paid. But we have to live among that, and it's not fair to us. I have been an activist for quite a while. I have not just become one; I have been for a while. I have been to large community communities to very small community meetings and I have gotten absolutely no help.
Well, you know, I used to represent a small area in that section.
And we had a town meeting and we had vice there and whatnot. And what vice reported is that they at that time they most of their arrests for prostitution in that area near that park. So we know -- and Old York Road we know inherently has been a problem for years. The larger picture is drugs, drug prevention et cetera.
You need to scare these men. On Kensington Avenue a couple months ago -- and I talked to a few prostitutes about three weeks ago, I said, "Didn't you see what went on in the paper?" They said, "About what? Oh, yeah, about a couple months ago some prostitutes may have been getting killed." They're still out there. They're going to be out there for whatever social and economic reasons. If we can scare the johns away, for lack of a better word, this will eventually -- it's never stop totally, but it's got to slow it down.
Really, if you would see 39 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 some of the people that come by pick prostitutes up, I really think they need to be placed on television. We have Lexuses, we have limos, we have the electric company, we have the cable company, we have the news. We have every walk of life that comes and picks up prostitutes at 12th and Luzerne that you can imagine.
I haven't seen them yet. I haven't seen those guys yet, but I'm going to be looking for them. (Laughter.)
I walked through the park earlier today because I had to take care of some business and I had get from Old York Road to Ninth Street. I walk through the park. The park looked really nice. I didn't necessarily see any prostitutes, but I seen a lot of johns trying to pick me up. I'm minding my own business. I'm taking care of 40 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 my own business, but I have men stopping along the way. My son is a senior in high school. He graduates this year. He runs track. Well, he started his practices during the summer. He would go over to the track, it's a City park, and practice his running five miles on the track. He was solicited quite a few by males. Now, this a young man trying to do something with himself. Our children aren't even safe from this kind of behavior. My mother moved on Old York Road. I was there. I'm second generation. My son is there, he's third generation. When he goes to college, he won't come back. And it's sad and it's not fair. He should be able to do anything he wants to do, wanting to come back, this is Grandmom's house, this is Mommy's house, but he don't want to come back because the area just has gone to that point and it's not fair. It really isn't fair because once upon a time it would be generation after generation that would stay in the area, but it's not happening anymore because of what's 41 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 happening in our communities. Prostitutes in our area is not going to go far from where the drugs are. Wherever the drugs are, the prostitutes are going to be.
I have another commitment. I'm glad I was able to come here today to express my support for your resolution. But again, I just want to restate before I leave, and I think everyone here is concerned that some person that was arrested for another crime mug shot doesn't wind up on television. This can be devastating, and that's why I would hope that the Police Commissioner would be the one to sign off on any photos that the City channel would show before they show them because we don't want to see someone broadcast -- you wouldn't want to see your son or my nephew on there that didn't deserve to be on there if he happened to be make contact with the law in some area, some other way. 42 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 So that's one of the things, Commissioner, I'm going to ask that before those photos get released and put on television that you okay them. Thank you.
Thank you for taking the time. The next witness is the Police Commissioner. You're the last one. Please proceed. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: I apologize for being late.
Actually, you're just right on time. It's perfect timing. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: I'm here with legal counsel Karen Simmons. Good afternoon, Councilwoman Miller and members of the Public Safety Committee and City Councilmembers. First, thank you for allowing me to speak on the such an important topic that clearly 43 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 undermines the quality of life in far too many neighborhoods throughout our City. Prostitution and the resultant urban decay and stress it creates among our neighborhoods has always been a major concern of mine and the Philadelphia Police Department. Regrettably, due to the high drug addiction rates in Philadelphia and other large urban cities across the country, far too many women and men are forced by addiction into prostitution. Therefore, this is not a situation that law enforcement alone will ever eliminate without help from social services; counseling, drug treatment, education, training and employment opportunities to name just a few. I have always said that the City can never arrest our way out of the problems of drugs. This is also true with the consequential problems like prostitution that it creates. However, this does not mean nor should anyone believe that I and the Philadelphia Police Department are complacent or believe that we shall give up. Quite the 44 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 opposite. I feel we have a duty to the citizens of Philadelphia to address all crimes that undermines the quality of life in our City regardless of the cost. Children should not have to witness prostitution in cars and alleys and their parents should not be left to clean up the disgusting mess often left behind. Eradicating prostitution from our streets and alleys is a high priority of the City-wide Vice Unit and Philadelphia Police Department. I applaud Councilman Mariano for looking for all alternate solutions to help reduce or even eliminate the problem. In 2002, there were 1,609 arrests for solicitation and prostitution. In 2003, there was a total of 1,284 arrests for solicitation and prostitution. Prostitution thrives not because of drug addiction, because people are willing to pay for sex. If we can eliminate the market for prostitution we can reverse this trend in the neighborhoods and force the addicts to get help. Accordingly, I fully support in 45 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 theory the Councilman Mariano's resolution 3 broadcasting the names and photographs of those recently arrested for solicitation. In a perfect world, this alone should deter those willing to patronize prostitutes. After all, if there are no johns, there would be no 8 prostitutes, so the theory goes. Thank you, Councilman Mariano and members of the Committee of Public Safety. This concludes my testimony on this resolution. At this time, I would be happy to answer any questions that any members may have.
Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. I remember when the Guardian Angles were present in the Philadelphia when they had a heavy presence here. One of their methods to deter drug sales was to run away the customers, to bring attention to the corner. So I think it's a good strategy when we figure out a way we can deter the johns from coming to a particular area. One of the other things I was 46 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 thinking, you know, we all get together and sometimes we do a March on corners that have drug problems. I was wondering have you guys ever tried that prostitution corners. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Councilwoman, we have. Again, I think as far as drugs is concerned and prostitution, if there is no 9 buyers, there's no sellers. And the thing we have to be a lot more proactive than we ever been before. Again, I totally agree with this resolution and will support it.
Let me make a statement and tell another story that may make sense to everyone here, but it's very germane to this. I have acquaintance that I went to grade school with. I'll 49 years old in July. You do the math. I see him once every 10 years. His mom still lives in the neighborhood I live in, but we're not really good friends. I get a call from a mutual friend that says "So-and-So got arrested Friday night. " 47 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. " I said, "I can't help him, but what I can do is I can call the Bail Commissioner and find out for you how long he'll been there. It could be hours. " 10 So he got out eventually in a day or 11 so he calls my friend and they both call me to 12 thank me. And I said, "Have you lost your 13 mind? " 14 He said, "You know, I went through a 15 bad divorce" -- I'm paraphrasing this. He 16 needed female companionship, he thought he 17 did. " He said, "I couldn't count that 48 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 high. " I said, "I understand. Handle it some way else. " Well, she was real good looking because she was a police woman, okay. Duh. Light bulb goes off, police woman. " Maybe she won't be. Not that he has any ugly police women but he had some not too attractive ones that might fit in a little better. The captain or lieutenant that handles that does different things, and he's not say that in a public meeting. But if these guys are scared where they may see their picture in the paper and on this cable station, they're still going to do it. They're going to do it another way. They're going to take care themselves another way. We can leave that up to our imagination. Something's going to happen. They may go to Camden. They can go to Cherry Hill. They can 49 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 go to Wildwood, New Jersey, as much as I care, but not in front her house or her house or his house. That's all we're doing here. This thing will be around the wold dead and gone and bones, dust in the bone yard. We've got to do this because this never ends. I can see this, like I said, last night. As the sun's out, we'll go up there right now on the way home, anyone who wants to ride with me, I bet you about 6 o'clock tonight we can pick any flavor, size, color, male, female to get anything we want. And that's bad. The woman has the business there. My friend's got a tattoo parlor at Kensington and Allegheny, Philadelphia Ink Danny. So a lot of tattoo guys going in there. Them women come in there; he chases them out. They go into what used to be the drug store; they chase them out. They go across the street to the bar to try to drink. He chases them out. But it never ever ends. This is just one little thing that we can do. It's not going to be the end all, we have to do this. We've done marches. I've 50 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 down marches. I'm beyond marches for this. I actually can't go there anymore alone. I have to have a witness in the car with me. " I don't want that so I've got to make sure someone's with me. Sometimes I have my wife with me when we're driving up the Avenue. " I've got to say something; it's nice. "Ladies, can't you leave. You know what? " That's what we need. Me question to you is -- and this was Councilman Rizzo's question actually. We don't want to break any laws here. I know you probably signed off for the Daily News to have the names. We own this cable station. Is there anything illegal about us putting those pictures there? And if so, I'm sure my colleague Councilman Cohen is going to want to know are we infringing on anybody's civil rights?
Identify 51 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 yourself, please.
We've asked the Law Department to look at that exact issue because when we got the request from the Daily News, it came to us as a public records request under to Right to Know Act. And it was clear to us because the request was made to us that it was not anything illegal. It was clearly in a discretionary area.
And onus would be on the Daily News if it was illegal.
And it was nothing illegal about that. It wasn't protected information under any law. It wasn't Criminal Record Information Act that we couldn't turn over, so it was discretionary information that the City could turn over. Now, what we've asked them to look at is that because the City would be -- in this case it's the City doing it, at this point we don't think it's anything different. We're asking them to just take a look at that. And at this point they don't believe it's anything different in doing that than it was 52 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 in turning it over to the Daily News.
Because we have some real good things. We have one idea where we're going to put a big banner at K and A near Atlantic Street on Kensington and on 12th Street that says, "Welcome to my neighborhood. But if you came here to commit a crime, no 9 matter what that crime is, you will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If you're thinking about committing a crime with a prostitute, forget it because you're going to be in the Daily News and maybe even the Inquirer will start and you'll be on our cable station." Plus, if this doesn't work, I'll personally get T-shirts printed up every Friday with the pictures of all these people. And those people and all the people I know will wear these T-shirts. Or put billboards up. We've got to do something.
Because right now the Police Department on many cases we will give out pictures of individuals who commit crimes as long as it's contemporaneous with the time 53 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 that they're rested. We've gotten a sign-off when we've done the research that that is not protected information and that has clearly been shown to be public record.
My friend got arrested there on Kensington Avenue for that crime. His picture gets on the Daily News and on there. If it's his first offense -- and this question has to be asked -- and he says -- and I'm sure of this because I've known him on and off. He can get in that program and then his picture wouldn't be, right?
Well, a number of people may get into the ARD program and then their records may get expunged, and that may happen along the line after the fact. But what the law says is that the picture at the time you're arrested is not protected information, which means it's a public record at the time you are arrested. So once you're arraigned, it's public. Once it gets expunged, the onus becomes on you or on the Daily News or whoever has that record to also do whatever the order may say. But when the 54 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 Police Department and the City gets an order from the judge that says expunge that person's record, the Police Department will expunge whatever record we have. Now, the onus is not on the Police Department to expunge anything that's not in our custody. So then that person, if they want to, will have to try to get an order that says Daily News or whatever other news --
This is a little jump ahead here because this is something I always wanted to know. In that case, if that record is expunged in Philadelphia by this department, the individual goes for a job in Dallas, Texas, that's still on his record, the FBI thing, right?
It should not be. When it's expunged -- well, it's according what the judge's order say. The answer is kind of like a legal, it depends. If the judge under the ARD Program, which is Accelerated Rehabilitated Disposition Program, it says that once you enter that program the 55 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 record is expunged as if the crime was never committed. So it should be expunged from your record. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: I think what happens sometimes, they may still have an FBI number, and that FBI number will come up.
I'm not a cop or a lawyer, never wanted to be, but I suspect the FBI doesn't expunge anything. It must be in your record forever from jaywalking to guns.
So there's a timeline then for when you could use the picture and when you couldn't? If someone signs up for ARD, you can't really use the photo, correct?
That's not true. Based on what the law is, we can use the picture at the time you're arrested under the law. But based on what the Law Department has said and based on what the research says, once you're arrested, your picture is taken after arraignment. And that picture is public. It's a public record. 56 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 Now, if you get into the ARD Program and you successfully complete the ARD program and once the judge signs an order and says your record should be expunged, the Police Department and the courts would then expunge your record. And that picture that we have in our custody, the Police Department would then destroy that picture.
So to sign up for ARD is given one opportunity for first-time offenders?
And that's not an automatic thing. That's not something that's guaranteed to first-time offenders for any specific crime. That's something that has to be offered by the District Attorney's Office and they have to accept you into that program.
To clear up a couple more things while we have both of you here, again, I'm not a lawyer, but there's a couple different ways. A policeman goes to car and there's a man and woman engaging in 57 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 sex and they he arrests them. That's not as serious as a man soliciting or a woman soliciting an undercover police officer, right? That's above a summary offense, right? What's more serious here? The problem they always got was, well, I can't do nothing because I'm not catching them do it. I mean, a cop rolls on the scene, sees something happen, can he arrest them? Does he have to see money exchange hands? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Well, I can give you my opinion and she can give you her opinion. I think it is indecent exposure if he catches them in an uncomfortable position and then they could be arrested. I think it's also a misdemeanor. It really depends. The fact that he goes out to catch them in a sexual act no matter what that sexual act is, it is indecent exposure and I think it is also as serious, at least in my opinion -- it may not be more serious than solicitation, but they are more or less borderline or equal to each other. 58 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378
For a misdemeanor do you get fingerprinted and photographed? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Yes.
But if they just pick up a woman for street-walking or obstruction of the highway, can they fingerprint and photograph them for that? I've heard various opinions of that over the last five years. Is that a summary offense?
That's a summary offense, obstruction of the highway. It can be escalated. Obstruction is a summary offense. Under our Crimes Code, under the Rules of Criminal Procedure, you do bring them in.
So therefore, if I'm a female and I'm out there and I'm a prostitute --
A male can be a prostitute. 59 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378
Okay. But I'm a known prostitute but the policeman may be a new guy and he don't know, he might have just got there, they take me and give me a summary offense, I might have done it times in the 7 last two weeks, nobody knows me because I'm 8 not doing it on 12th Street, now I'm somewhere 9 else. They just give me a ticket for a 10 summary offense. Nobody checks to see if I 11 have any priors or anything? 12 COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: They normally 13 always check prior.
How do you do that without fingerprints and photographs? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Well, they check to see if they have any identification. If they don't have any identification, then normally what we find most prostitutes have 10 or 15 different names. So it's an system, and most of them are not honest. But we can't force them to be fingerprinted at that point. But if they give a name, we'll check the name that they give and the date of birth.
And if you don't have 60 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 identification or we can't identify you, then we may have to do the fingerprints for identification purposes. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: But what happens a lot of times too is that they take the wrong photographs a lot of times, the Polaroids. In a lot of districts what they do is they put their names into a book so they will bring up the book and look and identify this person. A lot of detective divisions, a lot of districts, especially City-wide vice has pictures of these prostitutes. And because a lot of times they give different names and they would know even prior to fingerprinting them.
Commissioner, it's past the statute of limitations, so I can tell you this. I had a driver that passed away and he actually worked for Congressman Blackwell. He was in Captain Ferguson's squad, and you're an old timer, I know you remember Fergie squad. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: I'm not that old. 61 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378
You weren't there, but you remember it. You heard the stories. But they did everything. Harry told me that when a politician would call -- now this is 30, 40, 50 years ago, during them days. Harry said when they knew that Kensington Avenue was hot box -- and we're not recommending we do this -- they used to actually send the wagons out, round them up, dump them on the other side of the bridge. I'm not saying you should do that, but desperate times, desperate measures. So is there something like that we can do without violating somebody's civil rights, like maybe take them to the mission to get some donuts and coffee and let them out at 6:00 in the morning? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: No, I don't think we can force them to do anything. We can't break the law to enforce the law. We would wind up getting locked up ourselves.
That would be like that sting when everybody comes in because they think they won tickets to the 62 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 Super Bowl and they're all drug dealers. Something like that. I mean, we're laughing, but this is desperate. And if I lived on Kensington Avenue, I would have lost my mind by now. If I lived at her house, I would have lost my mind. I know it's not your fault and I know you're a good guy. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: I appreciate everything City Council has done to make us do things that are legal. We'll try eradicate this type of problem. I understand what the neighborhoods go through. I think in one year we made 1,600 arrests. I might be saying something out of line, but I'm probably going to say it anyhow. I think the judges have to get involved in this too. We can't be arresting people 25, 30 times for prostitution and nothing happens to them and they know there's nothing going to happen to them so to be arrested and be inconvenienced for a day or two days and come right back into the exact same thing over, there's no deterrent.
I think you're 63 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378 right and everyone in the audience. What I want to do is get all your names and phone numbers. Maybe we need to have like instead of a -- you know how if a crime's committed against you, someone ine victims assistance or maybe between my office and maybe some of the other Councilpeople's office. If there's a prostitute and there's an arrest, maybe we can go down and remind that judge, whoever they are, that what a scourge this person is to our community. But he's right. He's been a cop -- not as long as I wanted him to have been a cop, but he's been a cop for a while. So he knows it's the judges too. And we elect them every 10 years and you go in that booth and you're like, that sounds like a nice Italian name, I'll vote for him. You never know because you don't know them. They can't talk about what they're going to do; it's against the law for people running for judge. So lets all get each other's names and maybe we can work on that with our staffs. Thank you, Commissioner. 64 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 040378
Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. Are there any other questions for the Commissioner? (No response.)
Thank you both for coming in. Is that all the witnesses today?
We conclude the public hearing and move the committee into the public meeting. - - - - 65 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC MEETING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - - Thursday, May 13, 2004 - - - - Public meeting conducted by the Committee on Public Safety, held in Room 400, City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the above date, to consider action on the following: RESOLUTION 040378. PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER, Chair COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI, Vice Chair COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO 66 05/13/04 - PUBLIC SAFETY- PUBLIC MEETING
I make a motion that Resolution No. 040378 be voted out of this Committee with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
Councilwoman Krajewski and Councilman Rizzo voting aye. All in favor? (Aye.)
Thank you. The resolution passes. (Council adjourns at 2:23 p.m.) - - - - 67 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Thursday, May 13, 2004, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. RE: COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY _________________________ Lisa C. Bradley, RPR