Committee Hearing, September 24, 2002

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania September 24, 2002 10:24 a.m. - - - BILL 020408 - an ordinance amending the Philadelphia Code by adding requirements applicable to landlords... BILL 020411 - an ordinance amending Title 4 of the Philadelphia Code, Subcode A... BILL 020482 - An ordinance amending the Philadelphia Code to revise various requirements, prohibitions relating to educational housing districts... BILL 020484 - An ordinance amending Chapter 9-2400 of the Philadelphia Code... - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, Chair COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 (215) 561-2220 I N D E X BILL 020411 PAGE OTIS HAIGLER, JR., L & I ................... ROBERT D. SOLVIBILE, L & I ................. 10 JUDITH ROBINSON, N. Phila Homeowers Assoc .. 24 BILL 020482, 020484 TED GREENBERG ............................. 36 RICHARD MOSES ............................. 38 GREG JAMES ................................ 56 LOUIS ROSEN ............................... 59 KWAN JAE KIM .............................. 65 JOHN MOBELY ............................... 71 JOHN FULLER ............................... 75 STEVE JONES ............................... 80 RICHARD PASSON, St. Joseph's .............. 93 JOE MAHONEY, Phila. Chamber of Commerce ... 102 CAROL SCHEMAN, University of Penn ......... 106 TABB BISHOP, Temple ....................... 113 MARY KATE MCGINTY, University of Sciences . 118 MARY YOUNG, Assoc. of Independent Colleges and Universities of Pennsylvania ..... 121 EDWARD TUREANSKI, LaSalle University ...... 135 KYLE BRUNO ................................ 139 MATT DRAKE ................................ 144 DOMINIC VERDI, L & I ...................... 145 DUANE BUMB, Deputy Commerce Director ...... 154 3 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020408

This is a hearing of the Committee of Licenses and Inspection. The Committee will hear testimony on Bills 020411, 020482, 020484 and 020408. And we will not be hearing Resolution 020156, the one that pertains to tow trucks, so if anyone is here for that, you can stay if you want because it's really exciting, so stick around for exciting business. We have a quorum. I have Councilman Frank Rizzo, Councilwoman Blondel Reynolds-Brown, Councilman Michael Nutter, myself, Councilman Mariano, who are members of the Committee and we have Councilwoman Blackwell, who is not a member of the committee, but is going to sit in anyhow. The Clerk will read the title of Bill 17 020408.

Bill 020408, an ordinance 19 amending the Philadelphia Code by adding requirements applicable to landlords who rent to students in Educational Housing Districts, and to the colleges and universities attended by such students and by making technical changes, all under certain terms and conditions.

Councilman 4 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 Nutter, this bill is replacing Bill 020484. Do you wish to hold this bill or withdraw this bill?

020408 is going to be withdrawn.

He's going to withdraw 020408. The Clerk will read the title of 020411.

Bill 020411, an ordinance 11 amending Title 4 of the Philadelphia Code, Subcode A, The Philadelphia Administrative Code, Chapter 3, to amend Section A3034.2 to require notice of demolition to residents of neighboring properties, all under certain terms and conditions.

Okay, we'll have people for testimony. The Councilman wants to bring the neighborhood groups up first, okay, because he knows that you're making a whole lot of money and you get paid sitting here or not. They have to go home and take care of their business. Come on up. So the neighborhood groups that want to come up -- Michael, who do you want first? Does it matter? 5 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. They're kind of all here, both as representing specific neighborhood organizations as well as individuals. I believe we have representatives from the Wynnefield Residents Association, as well as the Overbrook Farms Club East. And why don't we just get representatives from both of the groups up at the table and then any other constituents.

Wait a second. I made a mistake here. We read 411, so we're actually on Councilman Clarke's bill. Do we want to change any of the other ones? He only has three witness, Councilman Clarke. Let's bring Councilman Clarke's witnesses up here. Councilman? The one we read, 020411.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this particular bill was a bill that we introduced based on concerns that had been raised over a number of years with respect to impromptu demolition in communities. It was told to me, and I've witnessed instances where the first time individuals on a block knew that there was going to be demolition was when 6 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 the dumpster was dropped on the sidewalk. So as a result of that, we put a bill in place. We actually will be offering some amendments to date, of which I have distributed to members of the committee to ensure that individuals who will be mostly affected will receive proper notification. And I believe that the Department of L & I is here to testify today with respect to the bill and subsequent amendments.

Who do you want to go first? You going to let L & I go first?

Mr. Haigler and Mr. Solvibile.

Mr. Haigler, go ahead.

Good day, Councilman Mariano and members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Junior, Legislator of Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today, I am here to provide testimony on Bill 020411, which would amend the Philadelphia Code to require notice of demolition to residents of neighboring properties, introduced by Councilman Clarke on June 6, 2002. 7 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 The Department fully supports the intent and spirit behind this legislation and believes that, if it is effectively implemented, it could greatly assist in making community members aware of potentially critical changes, specifically the demolition of certain properties within their neighborhood. The Administration supports and shares the belief that community residents deserve sufficient understanding of any potentially significant changes in the very neighborhoods they call home. However, the Department respectfully requests that certain technical changes be made to the legislation to ensure that the department can carry out the intent of the legislation efficiently. " If the goal of the legislation is to inform the individuals residing near a property that will soon be demolished, it may be more accurate to refer to the distribution as informational bulletins. Second, the Department has concerns 8 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 regarding the requirement that such informational bulletins be distributed to residents of all neighboring properties situated within 100 feet in any direction of the property to be demolished. It is our goal to have the informational bulletins be both descriptive and effective. To this end, we feel that both the term, resident, and the requirement that properties be situated within 100 feet in any direction may cause confusion among staff when this legislation is put into practice. Therefore, it is the Department's belief that if the legislation was more specific in the properties that were to receive the informational bulletins, it would be more effective. Recognizing this, the Department respectfully requests, that rather than attempting the potentially difficult task of trying to identify residents, or the even more potentially difficult task of trying to accurately determine 100 feet from the structure to be demolished, the Department be permitted to distribute the informational bulletins to the front doors of the following properties: The three nearest 9 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 properties on each side of the subject property; the seven nearest properties across the street from the subject property; and the seven nearest properties to the rear of the subject property. Third, it is respectfully requested that for emergency curbside demolition, that the Department be permitted to distribute the informational bulletin only to those properties abutting the property which is to be demolished. Finally, it is respectfully requested that with regard to the timing and the distribution of the informational bulletins, that the bulletins are distributed either within 10 days of the issuance to the owner of the building permit to demolish, or service by the Department of a notice requiring demolition or an award of a demolition contract by the department. Again, in suggesting this change, it is the Department's intent to have the informational bulletins be as effective as possible. It is our belief that by distributing the informational bulletins, as I have described, allows for the notice to arrive in a more timely fashion in relation to the potential demolition. 10 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 I have attached a draft of all the changes, amendments -- all suggested amendments for the committee's review. Again, please allow me to emphasize that the Administration supports the intent and spirit of this legislation. The amendments are respectfully suggested in order to allow the Department to more effectively and practically implement this legislation.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before this committee today. And I would be happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.

Are there any questions for Mr. Haigler, or do you want to let Mr. Solvibile go and then question them both at once? Okay, Mr. Solvibile. Bob, you can testify and then I'll ask you both questions.

I would like to add that the Department fully supports the measures as outlined by Mr. Haigler as far as the informational bulletins and notification to the adjoining properties. 11 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 I would like to point out that presently, the Department inspects the adjacent properties where the people are available to us. Even on emergency demolitions where a building is in a state of collapse, we inspect it for the safety of the occupants of the attached building, so that's something we presently do. And we'll now also give them an informational bulletin, which should also help. I would add that we are not against posting to go with the original intent on a couple telephone poles, the intent that we'll demolish the building. I would also add that under the Mayor's NTI program there is a public outreach component of that which will notify the communities of our intended demolitions. And in most Councilmatic districts there's community meetings that will be taking place. I know in some areas that we've already done the communities have met with us in making choices of what would be demolished and we also have gone to several meetings. I also would like this legislation to state that the owner is responsible for 12 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 distributing the information bulletins on a private demolition, not that the department would. Our forces are rather thin. And for inspectors to be doing this would take up a lot of our time that we would not be able to inspect buildings. Thank you for your time. I'm sorry. I didn't say my name. My name is Robert D. Solvibile, Sr. I'm first Deputy Commissioner of Licensing and Inspections.

I just want to make note for the record that Councilwoman Krajewski and Councilman DiCicco is over there. They're here present today.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have of couple questions. One, with respect to the private demolition you indicated is the responsibility of the owner of the property, are they given any guidelines in terms of notification? And secondly, if they do not notify those owners, what's the enforcement mechanism in place?

Presently, for 13 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 private demolitions owners are responsible to -- L & I presently posts the property with a notice that this building will be demolished on private demolitions. We would hand to the owner a form that we're going to have the Law Department make up as far as the informational bulletin, how we want it to read. And the owner would then be responsible for distributing it and give us a certified letter, a letter certifying that he or she has had the information distributed. If they don't do this, then we will not allow the demolition to continue.

I just wanted to bring a little clarity to a part of your testimony. You referenced NTI. This is not NTI related. This will be a City-wide focus. NTI will be narrowly focused in specific neighborhoods. So I just wanted to make it understood that this is a non-NTI notification process.

I put that in because we're imposing upon ourselves with NTI a more stringent obligation of notifying the community that neither this bill is outlining, which is 14 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 what the Mayor and Administration desires and Council people we've dealt with desire this to be for NTI demolitions.

Assuming this bill is passed, can you give me a guesstimate on the time line of when the forms will be ready that are being put together by the Law Department; when individuals or individuals contracted with the City of Philadelphia or private individuals who are seeking demolition permits will be required to start posting these notices?

I'm sure that we could time line -- the form will be made up with Mr. Haigler and Mary Schmidt from the Law Department working on that. As we speak, we've talked about having a form made up, and the Law Department is doing that for us to make sure the legal language is there. So that should be done hopefully even before this passes in Council. And then as far as the notices, the posters that we would put up, I think it would be sufficient -- and that's why we're here -- to a notice of the information bulletin that we give 15 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 out to the people to be posted, maybe on the front of the house, and we can post it on a couple light poles -- telephone poles. I couldn't remember the name, telephone poles. So there would be notification to the community. That, Councilman, I think could be done immediately.

All right. My biggest concern is that the individuals who live on the block receive notification in their mail slot, in their hand. Because the reality is, in a lot of instances when you post a sticker, the demolition sticker on the property to be demolished, if in fact that individual is in close proximity who owns that property and close proximity of that property, those posters are taken off before the glue gets dried. And I'm assuming that in addition to that they will also take down whatever notice are posted on poles. And we can do that, but I'm just concerned that those individuals directly affected receive proper notification.

Right. And absolutely we agree. Now, this would be 16 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 non-emergency, curbside bid-type buildings that L & I does not bid as an emergency. They're excluded from this bill, as I understand it, Councilman?

Well, one of the issues -- I mean, you referenced in the amendment that within days that an emergency demolition 9 should take place. 10

That's correct. About 10 days. As you know sometimes, Councilman, the need to do it is immediate and sometimes it's not quite immediate, within the next several days.

The curbside demolitions I'm okay with because more often than not curbside demolitions are driven by collapse or driven by community complaint as we're out walking the neighborhoods, so there's some -- by virtue of that there's notification of the residents, sometimes the entire block.

Absolutely.

But what I want to specify is that it's only in those instances. I don't want it to be a situation where we say 17 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 that the property is imminently dangerous and it's going to come down, and then it doesn't happen in six months. All right. And I've seen instances where we've done that before. I want to make sure to specify that it's only in cases of extremely imminently dangerous buildings, buildings that have collapsed or buildings that are in danger of collapsing within the next few hours. I don't want to have an open-ended situation where you can say it's imminently dangerous and we don't do anything about it.

It will be absolutely declared imminently dangerous by the Department. And in our opinion right now, basically, Councilman, we're only doing, as far as Licenses and Inspections is concerned, that type of property. And the other properties that are being demolished, we're waiting for the NTI package to be put together in that district, which is a lot more efficient and it's more beneficial to the district and to the citizens in that area.

So more often than not when it's an imminently dangerous 18 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 building, we have at least one inspector, probably more than one inspector on site?

Yes. For a curbside bid there's usually two inspectors at my insistence because of taking bids. And this way there's a witness to what our inspectors are doing. They witness each other. So, yes, there would be two inspectors at all times at a curbside bid, at least two.

And they're required to go to the adjacent properties?

Absolutely. If we can get into the adjacent properties they need to make an inspection for structural purposes of the adjacent attached properties. If they can't get in they're to leave a card and come back as soon as that person contacts them. Now, in some cases, people, as you know, Councilman, don't want us in there, but we make the best attempt we can. And if we see something in the course of the demolition that we don't like on the party wall or something at that house next door, we'll stop it and then just find where the owner is and get an inspection of the 19 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 interior of the property. Our concern is always the safety of the occupants in the property.

I understand. Since the inspectors required if you can gain access to inspect the party wall and other structural issues within those adjacent buildings and he's required to leave a card, I'm asking you can he also leave that form that we would mail out?

Absolutely. I'm sorry, Councilman. That's understood. They will leave that form with the occupants of that house.

Or the bulletin?

The informational bulletin, yes.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Okay. That's it from the Administration. You guys have anything else? Community groups. Marta Brooks, Senior Citizens, and Judith Robinson. You guys can come up together.

State your name 20 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 for the record.

Marta Brooks. I am a staff attorney with Senior Law Center. We were formerly, as of a few months ago, known as Senior Citizen Judicare Project, which I think most of you know us as. We're now Senior Law Center. We provide free legal services to people 60 and older. The reason why we're here is because one the types of cases that we handle are cases that involve legal issues surrounding problems with City contracted demolition work. Some of those problems involve property damage to neighboring properties as a result of demolition work. We definitely are strongly in support of this bill. We're very happy to see it. We think it begins to address some of the issues regarding the current demolition program and changes that we believe should be made with it. As Councilman Clarke mentioned, we have similar experiences with our clients where typically they will describe that they wake up one morning, a scary morning, and just hear something crash and they don't know what it is 21 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 and it's the house next door. So we believe that it's very important to impose this notice requirement on L & I and, frankly, it's common courtesy to the citizens of the City. We would add a few things, in our opinion. We hope that there could be some kind of penalty imposed if the notice requirement is not satisfied by L & I. We think that it's always important to have some sort of a penalty. Hopefully, it won't be needed, but if it could be consistently and diligently imposed, I think it would go a long way towards making sure that people are always notified about these situations, particularly because the people living next door are just sometimes innocent victims of certain things that go on with the demolition work. The other thing I would mention -- and obviously, you know, we're an office who people only come to us if they have a problem. And certainly there are times when there's absolutely no problem, so I'm not trying to imply that there's always a problem with demolition work. But in our opinion, we believe that added 22 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 to the notice should be information regarding the city inspector who has been assigned to handle the demolition work as well as information regarding the contractor hired by the City to do the work. So that if there is a problem, the people next door know the appropriate parties to contact. So we believe that included with a notice should be the name, address and telephone number of the city inspector assigned to oversee the demolition work, as well as the name, address and telephone number of the contractor who's been hired to do the work.

On that, and this is from experience, not that particular issue, but dealing with city inspectors, they're never in the office. I would rather that you would call Solvibile or Verdi or somebody like that. Because if they're not in the office, they don't have a message machine, they have a secretary and a number you can get. Inspectors, from my dealing with -- it's good idea. You're right. If not them, their bosses. They go out in the morning, and if you don't know their schedule, some go out in the afternoon, it can 23 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 take weeks to get those guys.

I agree.

But the thought is there. The spirit is there.

We certainly know that if we want to get an inspector, often we've got to call them at 8:30 in the morning. There are some, yes, who are definitely there just in the afternoons. I don't know what Mr. Solvibile would say. I would think --

I'll give you his cell phone number for $20.

Well, I think it would be very difficult for all of the calls just to go there --

Okay, $10.

Just to go to his office.

Five.

And the city inspector -- you know, this is one of the issues that we have is city inspectors should be involved. And we would be so happy if we could talk to the city inspector and really get them to hear what we're 24 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 saying before we have to file a claim with the City, before we have to bring litigation. It's not something that we want to do. We are very happy to settle cases. But, unfortunately, to date we've settled very few and they've all mostly gone to litigation. So that would be our suggestion. We're strongly in favor of the bill. We think it's great to see, but we would add those things.

Good suggestions. Thank you. Ms. Robinson.

Yes. Thank you. My name is Judith Robinson. I'm here as an advocate for North Philadelphia, Homeowners Association of North Philadelphia. And I, too, thank my Councilman. After many calls to his office, I'm sure, and I know for myself asking him for something in this regard. But it's truly unfortunate that half of our North Philadelphia neighborhood has been disrespectfully demolished, torn down and then we get this notification bill. I'm concerned that it's not far reaching enough. I'm a real estate broker, and I know an appraiser 25 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 looks at a one-mile radius when appraising the value of a property. When a property is demolished in a neighborhood, it's not some small little secret that should be disclosed only to the people two doors down, three doors down. When dust flies, it flies throughout our neighborhood. So I would request that it be a more far reaching notification. It's a neighborhood that's being affected, not just one block. So I would respectfully request that it be more notification. Because community participation is very much a part of what makes a community grow. If a community is not aware of what's being done in their neighborhood, then I don't think you can expect positive community participation, and we know in Philadelphia it's sorely needed, especially in neighborhoods like North Philly that over the years have been demolished in a very disrespectful manner. I am very much concerned about documentation prior to any properties being demolished. I have checked violations on properties and have seen violations, such as there's a tree in the backyard affecting the 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 structure of the property. Well, if that tree was removed you would have a perfectly solid house that would not have to be demolished. So I'm concerned that properties are being demolished that, in fact, could be salvaged. We have talked about this in community planning meetings over this past summer and, according to a workshop we had on June 25th, the community requested respectfully of our Councilman, Darrell Clarke, that the community is consulted prior to demolition. They, in addition, requested that demolition be reduced in our community. We've had vacant lots as a part of our community for the past 30 years. Some of this land is still here, vacant open space. We want some development on these properties on this vacant land. So generally, I'm happy about the notification process, however there are many more documentations that we are requesting in our community. We don't want this notification to be sort of an okay, that it's okay if you notify a few people here and there, that it's okay to come and tear down our neighborhood. We are 27 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 respectfully requesting that there been a moratorium on demolition in North Philadelphia until we can get some of these issues addressed. I understand that there's some properties that are supposedly imminently dangerous, but every time we go to the violations, there's nothing that warrants the ID in a lot of cases, I'll say. Let me not say all cases, but a lot of cases there's nothing to warrant the ID, identification that could not be repaired if we plan to and there was money behind it to do it. So I am asking that prior to all of this notification, that there been more planning prior to demolition so then the community would participate in it and through one of the old practices of word of mouth, et cetera, in addition to the written notification, our community will be well aware of what's going on as far as demolition is concerned. And in closing. I thank this young lady brought up some excellent points. It should be some teeth into this legislation. It should be some penalties if, in fact, this is not done. We have health issues in our community. We don't 28 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 want to just know just because we're just interested in being nosy.

We want to know because we want to take precautions. We have health issues. Our seniors, we're concerned about respiratory issues, et cetera. We want to know about demolition prior to it taking effect because of this. And we want someone around that can give us some answers when this demolition is, in fact, taking place. About distribution and closing, I would suggest that possibly block captains could be used in this process. Most of them are very much willing to participate, and they could be a point of reference to notify the community. In addition, if you mail out a letter, I understand it has to go through the City's channels, so by the time someone actually gets it several days have passed. So I would like to say when you talk about notification, if it does take place through the mail, that it be 10 days from the postmark date. And thank you very much for listening.

Thank you, 29 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 ma'am. Anybody else to testify on this bill?

Can I comment on one thing? I know I'm pushing my luck. I'll be, like, seconds. 7

Okay. 8

I thought it was a great 9 point about -- and I know this is for another 10 time -- but really making sure that properties that are designated as needing to be demolished really do need to be demolished, because we're taking down a lot of our real homes. It's part of our City. And we have seen cases where -- and at least one successfully we were able to show that a house did not need to be demolished. So that's a great issue.

Thank you. Any questions from anybody up here? Councilman Clarke.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, with respect to a couple of issues raised by the individuals testifying, I think that prior to final passage of the bill we can have some dialogue with respect to the 30 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 formulation of the notice. With respect to the expanding notification, that's an issue that, frankly speaking, is administrative. Knowing City Government, we sometimes have a difficult enough time implementing the current legislation, so I don't know if we have the wherewithal to expand it. What I would like to do is pass the bill with the amendments that I have distributed. If there is a need to expand the notification process, we can talk about that. But I'm just concerned about our ability, frankly speaking, to administer the current bill and to expand it. I'm not sure that we would be in a position to do that, but I'm more than willing to continue that discussion. With respect to the trigger, upon the receipt of the notification, I think that that's something we can do -- Mr. Solvibile, as he shakes his head yes -- so the 10-day notification will be triggered by the receipt of the particular --

Excuse me, Councilman. We intend to distribute the notices by hand. 31 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

And that will trigger the 10-day notification?

That will trigger the day -- that will trigger the 10 days when 6 they're distributed by hand, either by the 7 owner's representatives or by City 8 representatives, it will distributed. And as you 9 say it's hard -- it's easier said than done to 10 get the whole system in place, to be able to do it efficiently and make sure it's done.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. The Clerk will read the title of Bill 16 020482.

An ordinance amending the Philadelphia Code to revise various requirements, prohibitions relating to Educational Housing Districts, by amending Chapter 10-1800, "Vicarious Liability for Student Conduct," including revising the definition of the term, responsible party; amending Chapter 9-2400, "Universities and Students," including by revising student address notification 32 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 requirements applicable to students, universities and colleges; revising requirements on students and colleges and universities regarding the students vehicles; revising requirements on colleges and universities regarding the provision to the City of certain policies and information; adding certain requirements applicable to landlords; adding certain reporting requirements; adding certain requirements regarding cooperation with enforcement officials; and making technical changes all under certain terms and conditions.

Thank you, Mr. Allen. Councilwoman Blackwell wants to make a statement for the record.

Thank you very much. And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for permitting me to speak because I have to speak at a ground-breaking at CHOP, and therefore I have to leave.

It's not a college, is it, or a university?

In fact, it's pretty close to that. But certainly we have 33 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 had a lot to say on this issue from its inception. We believe that it is the responsibility of the universities in our City and beyond to certainly work with the community. And the incidence of my district and in other districts around the City, we have an excellent relationship where we work hand-in-hand to serve the communities in which these universities reside. We believe that a better use of university funds, as opposed to setting up some law enforcement or law abiding or law -- or any law-making apparatus would be certainly to devote those funds into positive activities for our community. I believe that a bill such as this is negative. I don't believe in negative legislation. I believe that it is in the interest and it is the responsibility of legislators to certainly work positively, in a positive manner to support universities, to support communities who elect us. And we do that by coming up with positive programs for the two entities and certainly by not coming up with negative legislation that certainly serves to not 34 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 only hurt universities in terms of people -- prospective students who would apply, but hurt the City, hurt all of us. Not only that, finally, let me say that I believe it even as almost -- it's a real challenge to enforce any kind of legislation that says a university can enforce whether a kid gets a ticket. I think it's just unrealistic. Whether a kid gets a ticket, whether a kid acts disorderly, all of that. We have law enforcement entities. Certainly we have a Police Department. We have University City District in West Philadelphia. Other universities hire private law enforcement groups who do that, like Spectaguard. And it just becomes an unrealistic situation. I would hope as I leave -- and I'm sorry rushing -- that members of this Committee would consider that it is also the challenge of government to come up with feasible legislation that serves us all in a positive manner, and not negative legislation that may be almost impossible to set up, to enact possibly. But to enforce that really, in the final analysis, helps no one, but creates a real fight between us when 35 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 we just don't need it. I'll take those funds for any positive programs, such as many of the hundreds of those that we have in part from University of Pennsylvania, from Drexel, from USP and many others beyond. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Councilwoman. Okay. We're going to take the community groups first, so come on up. Community groups. State your name for the record, sir.

Thank you, Councilman. My name is Ted Greenberg and I live at 6092 Drexel Road, adjacent to the Overbrook train station. And I own rental property at 2125 and 2115 North 63rd Street, which is rented by some students and by working people as well. So, as such, I'm addressed by both sides of this legislation, as a landlord as well as a family person who gets myself and my family woken up by the students in the middle of the night. However, this legislation is addressed to additional penalties that apply after a conviction is made for what I will call a violation of quality of life issues; drunkenness, loitering, loud public disturbances and so forth, 36 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 and has been brought up by Councilman Ortiz in the first hearing. What we really need here is stepped-up enforcement. I am out at night sometimes with patrol and I will see drunk students, loud students and the officers will say, be quiet, go home. The same kid is back there the next night. Okay. So the issues that are brought up in this really don't even come to play unless there is a violation and a conviction. I know it's not Council's prerogative to require enforcement, but that is support taken to this issue. Additionally, we talked to the university that there should be further -- they say they can't even publicize when there is a violation because of other legislation. So we understand in the community that of the 3,600 St. Joseph's students, there's only a hundred or 200 that are really causing the bad problems. And perhaps the -- it was just said previously it can be worked out where the good students will actually be the enforcement on there. I would also then go back to the landlord side. Understandably, you have an 37 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 arbitrary number for the number of apartments, percentages and rentals and so forth. However, as an owner of property with only units, four 5 of which are rented to students, the 25 percent 6 regulation comes into play and adds severe 7 hardships. You're talking about a landlord 8 having to pay for an L & I inspection. Well, 9 L & I inspections are a fact of life if you own 10 property. If you have a violation, you remedy 11 them. Being charged for them just because you 12 have students in them is an unfair stipulation, I feel. Okay. Thank you very much.

Good morning. My name is Richard Moses. I live at 6323 Overbrook Avenue. And I'm just going to be very brief to say that the amended bill that's being put before you is one that I think is probably not as strong the other one. I would have supported the other one. I don't see this as negative legislation. I think that the disruptive things that have happened in the community need to be addressed. And I think it starts with the university, having worked in education myself. And then you look at the landlords. 38 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 I think if they aren't held in check they can hold the students accountable. We have seen some improvement this year in our work with the university in terms of how the students have responded. It's not perfect, but I think we're headed in the right direction. So I would, on behalf of the 63rd Street Block Association and my wife, Sheila Royal Moses, who is a member of the Overbrook Farms Club, support this bill and hope that maybe in the future -- to the Councilwoman's comments earlier that she sees this as negative legislation, I don't see it that way. I think if she experienced some of the things that we have she wouldn't view it that way. But if we start here, then maybe in the future we can pull back as things get to where they need to be. But they clearly are not right now. So that's my perspective on this. Thank you.

Thank you. Before you two guys leave, I have some questions and there might be some questions from the board. The first guy -- I'm sorry, I forgot your name.

Ted Greenberg. 39 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

You own rental property, plus you live there; is that correct?

That's correct. I've lived in the neighborhood for 28 years.

If you call whatever police district that is out there --

19th.

19th -- they don't handle this without this legislation?

What has happened, for example, just last weekend I was awakened by loud noises, students most who were -- appeared to be drunk. The officers were there. There is a police presence, I believe, paid for by the university for extra patrol. And I'd say, "Hey, there's a problem here." And they go over and go, "Hey, you guys are being loud. Can you just quiet it down and go home?" And the guys are just standing there. One guy is literally falling down drunk. Okay. And the next night I'll see the same guys. I'll hear the same noise. What I'm suggesting is that if the enforcement was actually taking place, if they 40 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 had gotten disturbing the peace citations or drunk and disorderly there might be a little further things. And again the stipulation the university says they cannot take sanctions until there is a conviction. Understood. So if there is no enforcement, there is no conviction and there is no sanctions.

See, my thought on this -- and this is no disrespect to either of you, because I hear your pain. I can tell for you to come down here and take off from work or whatever you're doing it's important, no matter what side you're on. And it's also important to me and to us. I grew up at Juniata Park across from a playground. My father was a retired master chief in the United States Navy. He had no 19 problem dealing with people with his mouth or with his hands, if it got to that. Living across from a playground was a great, great thing because as the City changed, there's a need for parking spots, so we always had extra parking spots outside. So when my brother and I got cars there was never jockeying that you need to do in 41 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 certain neighborhoods. But one of the down sides across from the playground -- and I personally never did it, but I think my brother did it. He's a couple years younger than me. People drank in that playground. And you got to realize this is the '60s and '70s and people like my father dealt differently with youths at the time. If my father came out -- his reputation may have preceded him -- they left. But he also knew to go to the guy down the street who may have known these kids. You don't have that in this situation. But what would happen now in that same neighborhood -- and my father is not alive anymore -- but the people who live in that house still have people that take advantage of that public recreation center. And there's one across from the street -- almost across the street from me where I live on the other side. When I see a police car go out and do what you told me about, Councilman or not, I'd take that number of that car down and I'd call my district Councilman and I'd call that police captain and I would say, look, 243 was out here. There were 13 kids 42 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 obviously drunk. I want to see a police report. And, guess what, somebody better have been arrested because that Councilman doesn't -- I mean, that police captain does not want to hear from a City Councilman or even an irate neighbor. You got to keep going over this and this. I'm not sure where I am with this legislation. I voted on the first one with Michael. I'm hearing different things from different universities. And again, I was teasing a little bit about St. Joe's moving, but I would have love have them up there. And I don't know if that would happen where I'm at, but that's certainly the Councilman's right. You got to deal with these laws that are on board. So Councilwoman Blackwell wasn't totally out of line with what she said. I mean, she firmly believed that. My sons visit a frat house at 33rd and Powelton at Drexel. My son is the president of the Greek Association at Drexel. For short I call his house "animal house." Now, his is the house the rich kids basically don't get in. They're mostly middle class and poorer kids of 43 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 all races get in that one. So they're away from home for the first time. His first year, I would surprise visit him. There's a lot of bad behavior that goes on there. And in their world it may not be bad behavior, but it is bad behavior, that there's parties going on. Drexel has police, but they're not police like Penn has or St. Joe's -- and I don't know with St. Joe's, but Temple has real police. Penn does. St. Joe's might have what Drexel has, security guards with no arrest power.

Security guards, that's correct.

As my son got older, now he's in fourth year of his five years at Drexel. He's the president of the house, too. Now it's up to him because if they get thrown out of that house, he has to answer to an alumni association. So what I'm saying is, there are routes available here, which may be this legislation. It may not be. You got to deal with those police captains. I'm sure Councilman Nutter would gladly deal with it if you don't feel comfortable doing it. 44 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 The police captains -- my police captains know me by my first name. And I don't harass them on anything, but when it's important they understand. It's a lot frustration. You shouldn't have to do that because you're trying to live a decent life, quality of life.

Right.

But when you bought those houses, St. Joe's was probably there.

St. Joe's did not have the presence they've had over the past several years.

This is something that happened in the last 10 years?

The number of students has gone up and the number of students on campus or in the community. St. Joe's over the years had half as many students, and most of the students were commuters. They lived in Delaware County, Montgomery County and around. The university now --

So they've expanded without building more dorms? 45 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

That is correct, without building more university housing, supervised housing.

Okay. Thank you. Councilman Nutter wants to say something on that, and then Councilwoman Reynolds-Brown.

Just very quickly on that particular point, Mr. Chairman. While this process is going on, there is a very active process going on in the neighborhood with regard to the issue that the gentleman raised. There is a pending proposal to significantly expand university housing in the Wynnefield section of Philadelphia, right at 54th and City Avenue. Popeye's parking lot, a series of commercial buildings on the 54th Street side going down City Avenue to 52nd Street. That is a very real, very live project. And, quite honestly, as we move toward that, that really is a part of the real solution to dealing with many of these issues. But even if we broke ground tomorrow, you're still at least 18 months away 46 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 from having that kind of project up. I think the university understands, and we're certainly very proud that population has increased significantly. We're a little short on housing and, certainly, housing under the university's jurisdiction. They've clearly figured out they need more housing and I'm supporting that particular development project. That's really where we want to be.

Councilman, we understand that. And I was speaking with a gentleman from the university regarding that this morning. The problems that this addresses is not as much students who are living in university housing, it's the ones that are living in privately uncontrolled properties --

Definitely off campus.

-- who are throwing the parties that attract the students from the university housing.

So like the Councilman said they're off property -- I mean, they're off St. Joe's property. 47 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Right. So the building of more housing just means that they'll have to walk from 54th Street instead of from Cardinal Avenue.

I understand. I mean, there are a couple of different issues here. One, there is a significant amount of unsupervised student housing interspersed in the neighborhood. St. Joe's University is virtually surrounded by a residential community. We understand that. That's why there's a separate bill specifically dealing with some landlord issues. All of this comes together at a time where you have a proposed development project and the time in between today and when those first students start living wherever they're going to be living. You're absolutely correct. In the university-controlled or operated or even master-leased housing we've seen problems significantly drop because there is supervision.

Agreed.

We are working with the university. There's been a tremendously 48 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 cooperative partner in all of this. But we have a number of different, I guess, goals, I would say, that are all happening at the same time. Some of which are conflicting with each other.

I think Councilwoman Reynolds-Brown is next, and then Councilwoman Krajewski.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I need to first underscore Councilman Nutter's statement that the university has been a terrific partner in working with the community, to the credit of the community who made it exceedingly clear that you have to be a terrific partner, that a structure that is going up at 54th and City Avenue, the university scaled back because the community was vigilant in saying eight stories is simply too high in a community where you have three-story buildings. So that dialogue that took place over the past year has yield an acceptable, reasonable product for all sides involved. The Chairman of the committee, raises an interesting observation that is related to a conversation I was having side-bar with 49 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Councilman Nutter, and that is freshman, I think, come with an additional burden being new students and all that that means. Having spent a number of years in higher education, I believe that freshman should be given some level of consideration because they are new. In your experience as a landlord, have you noticed that problems and issues die with older students than the younger students, or does it make a difference?

The university requires freshman to live on campus in supervised housing. And I understand freshman who went there this year, the sophomore -- have to live there as freshman and sophomores. So as such I only see juniors and seniors as tenants. Okay. They, as a rule -- at least the seniors usually realize, oh, I've been screwing up for three years. I've got to hit the books finally. Okay. I pretty much do a heavy screening in saying, look, this is not the such and such apartment building. You're not going to party here.

On that question can I ask you one -- who's worse, boys or girls? 50 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 I know somebody told me that --

Girls have fewer problems, but when they're at bad parties, they're bad.

They bring the bad boys over with them, huh? It was probably Councilman Nutter during his college days. That's what he's getting back, trying to level it out.

Just an aside. When you mentioned the parking across the street, just this morning I had to tow a student car out of my lot.

Now, you are indeed in an awkward circumstance. And I thank you for your testimony, but I can't figure out where your are with this bill. Do you believe this bill to be reasonable or not?

I believe that something needs to be done, okay? Parts of the bill I find are reasonable. The concept of students having to register with the university as to where they live, absolutely. The university is somewhat still acting as locum 51 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 parentis. And to have a situation where they don't know where a student is residing, that they think this person who's living on 63rd Street lives in Connecticut or Douglasville, is inappropriate in case they need to be reached to move their car, perhaps is number one. The concept of the university and the parents having -- taking responsibility of students who are over 21, I'm not sure the legality on that issue. Okay. So I'm not really going to comment there. This is a bill that came about out of desperation.

Desperation on behalf of whom?

The community. Until a few years ago we were not getting the cooperation we're getting now with the university. Again, the university has said that they will enforce dismissal or other issues regarding students, but only when they're notified by the police that the student has violated the law. Okay. Again, we're saying that it's only 200 out of 3,000 students.

And that's based 52 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 on what? Is that based on actual documentation of incidents?

No, that's just a guesstimate. That's just a guesstimate. Again, if I assume half of them live in supervised housing and the problem is not while they're in the supervised housing, when they're --

Off campus.

-- off campus. And very often, as you say, it may be the freshman, who it's their first time, you know, being at a keg party and they don't know better. I have had instances just this past weekend of hearing -- at two or so in the morning being woken by a female voice on my lawn saying, "No, I'm not going back to your dorm room." I got dressed, went downstairs and went to the two women. I went down and ascertained that the women were not in danger at that point, predominately because the guy who she was trying not to go back with had passed out on my lawn. And when his buddy tried to wake him up and said, "You're going back." 53 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 He said, "No, no, no. We're going to Manayunk to party." At that point he said, "No, we're taking you home." And I said, do you want me to call the university to get you an escort, a vehicle ride? "No, we'll be fine." So they got up and walked away from City Avenue. I followed them and said, "Guys, that's not where the dorms are." "Oh, okay. We'll go back." But this is typical of the -- again, and it's not the bulk of the students, because I never see a thousand students out on 63rd Street.

So let me pose this final question. Do you believe this bill is moving in the right direction?

Yes. Yes. With enforcement it allows the university to then do self-policing in getting that minority of students who are the problems out of the university and, therefore, out of our community. Yes. 54 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Okay. Thank you very much, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Councilwoman Krajewski.

Councilman Nutter, I just wanted to ask one question. Will this have any effect on any of the other universities in this City or what? Councilman?

Councilman Nutter.

I'm waiting on a microphone. Thank you. Councilwoman, as the bill is drafted, no, it will not. The only colleges and universities affected by this are those that are located within the 4th Councilmatic District. Those are specifically St. Joseph's University and Philadelphia University in East Falls. None of the other provisions of this bill or the other bill apply or have any impact or effect on any other college or university.

Thank you, Councilman. 55 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Thank you.

Do you have anything else to say, sir? I'm sorry.

I just wanted to say, I understand there is opposition from some of the other universities that are not in the district. We live in this community. We would like to see this happen. If they do the right thing, they shouldn't have anything to worry about, as far as we're concerned, so I just wanted to share that.

We hear you. Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to come out. Next witnesses.

Good morning, Council. It's been a long time. Glad to see you all. Unfortunately, I hate to have to come back and talk about this bill, which has plagued my community for the last 10 years. My name is Greg James in case you've all forgotten. I'm president of the Overbrook Farms East Residents Association. I no longer work for the City of Philadelphia, thank God.

You're not 56 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 moving out, though. You're going to stay, right?

I intend to stay, but the attitude in what has happened makes it very hard. The gentlemen that testified before me in this seat moved in a couple years ago. His house has turned over four times in the last years 8 because they lived next door to an apartment 9 house that is occupied totally by St. Joe's 10 students. The reality of it is that we as a community, being one of the better communities, probably the best community in the City of Philadelphia, is being drawn down because of the attitude of, not the university, but its students. Of landlords who own property who have no -- we have no recourse -- and who will not take the lead in trying to control their tenants of property that is occupied so totally by people who all have cars in a community that has driveways, but does not have enough room to safely park over a thousand cars now, that were not there when these properties were owned and occupied by single families. We have complained to the university. We have complained to the City, the Police 57 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Department, L & I, you name it, right down the pike over the years, all to fall on deaf ears. All to fall -- come up with the same thing, "It is not our problem. They don't live on university property. They're only kids." I've heard again of excuses. So therefore, the problem falls on the property owner, who has no financial, no 10 educational business or no gain in this. The property owner wake up to -- Mr. Greenberg raising two kids. His kids can't play on their front lawn because of the smell of the urine during the school year. Another neighbor found a box of condoms on his lawn. Aside from that conversation about where they're going to go, whether they're going to the dormitory or whether they're doing this. I've found panties. I've found a girl's -- doing their business in the middle of the street because the street happened --

On that, I have to say this. You should have made a video and we could have sold it on cable channels, you know, "Girls Gone Wild at St. Joe's". There's money in 58 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 that.

No, we couldn't sell it because the students have privacy rights. I have to thank St. Joe's University in the past year. They're hierarchy, the vice presidents and even the president has come out at night and witnessed some of the things that the community has been telling them over the years. And they've stepped up to the plate to do a lot about it. But it's not enough. They must have something that says that the university has to have this. A couple of years ago we had a student that passed away because of his illicit behavior. He drank himself to death literally, along with suspected drugs. He lived in an uncontrolled environment. Somebody must control these environments. These kids have shown us through time and time again that they don't -- I understand the other universities claim that they don't have the problem, yet they have bodies on their shoulders, too. People falling out of balconies and falling out of windows because they're too drunk to realize that they can't fly. The universities keep saying, Don't put this 59 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 burden on us. Well, we as the community have had this burden now for eight to ten years. We see no light unless we have this law. We've been beaten by this.

Thank you.

At this point I'd like to introduce Mr. Louis Rosen, also a neighbor of Overbrook Farms.

Very good.

Good morning, Councilman. My name is Louis Rosen. I'm just one member of the Overbrook Farms East Residents Association. I have lived at my present address for about 15 years on Overbrook Park, Overbrook Avenue. I am 16 a lifelong resident of the City of Philadelphia, 17 and I have seen an explosion of students 18 overwhelm the community from St. Joseph's University over the last eight to 10 years. The uncontrolled influx of students in past years was, in my opinion, totally without concern for the impact on the community. It has only been recently that the university, through the efforts of our organization and others, has started to take some responsibility, although 60 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 hesitantly. That is why I, as an individual in the Overbrook Farms East Residents Association, have supported legislation to hopefully cure the worst abuses of student conduct so that the town and gown community can coexist more harmoniously. I support most of the ordinance, amending Titles and 9, especially as the 9 ordinance relates thoughtfully to adoption of 10 policy by higher education entities and various due process protections relating to penalties for violation of their terms. I applaud the efforts of the ordinance's sponsors. However, Section 14 10-1081, Subsection 2 of the ordinance has now framed, delete as a, quote, responsibility party, end quote, the college or university in which a student is enrolled. Since no vicarious liability is now included for university or colleges, the teeth of the ordinance has been pulled or at least substantially dulled. No 21 vicarious liability would attach for any violation of any provision prohibiting excessive noise, illegal drinking and drug use, zoning noncompliance, property damage or other prohibited conduct in public places. 61 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 The language as to responsible parties should remain as is. It is respectfully submitted. They are the entities, university and colleges, best equipped to deal with the problem. They benefit most from the concentration of student populations and they are most amenable to enforcement of the terms of the ordinance. The universities, after all, receive the primary benefit of student attendance, tuition and fees. They should be responsible for the misdeeds of those students and landlords which burden law enforcement and L & I. The ordinance should be on all of those who benefit, not just students and parents. Of course, the community, it may be said, benefits to some extent from the presence of the university and students. However, the community suffers out of all proportion to any benefits because there are no effective controls on the abuses which have been identified, as you have heard today, and on other occasions. We say that universities should be made responsible parties under the ordinance 24 because they should be responsible for the misdeeds of those immature students whom they 62 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 knowingly permit to attend their institutions without adequate university control and guidance and without supervised housing, especially for freshman and sophomores. It was not until very recently, for instance, that St. Joseph's even sought to know the addresses of those students who lived off campus in the local community, or whether indeed they brought vehicles into the community, further exacerbating a difficult parking problem. Thus it was difficult, if not impossible, to enforce even university standards. With recent voluntary action, however, as well as the terms of newly adopted legislation, there may be hope to curb the worst abuse of the animal house atmosphere which exists during the academic year in many instances. This may be done without too great a financial burden on the universities themselves, even if responsible vicariously by legislation. First, universities vicarious liability need not be totally open-ended and totally under the legislation.

The ordinance, of course, does not impact on common-law and other tort causes of action or other avenues of redress 63 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 available to non-student populations. The impact of the legislation is specific and limited. The legislation may make clear that its intent is limited and that liability may not be imposed for offenses other than as specifically addressed in the ordinance that is before you today. Moreover, universities, to the extent that financial penalties may be imposed as a result of student misbehavior, may recoup their losses by surcharging students and/or parents by requiring reimbursement for the payment of fines by the university for continued attendance at the institution or for release of grades, transcripts or even for receipt of a diploma upon graduation. Control through the purse is often very effective Universities have great leverage here with student populations. The ordinance, it would seem, does not recognize this fact of life. Universities will find a way to recoup their losses, if given proper incentive through the ordinance's enforcement terms, whether it be voluntary enforcement by the universities, or through L and I or through the police. Moreover, as a practical matter, 64 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 enforcement is much more difficult against a multitude of individual students than against the primary institution involved, that is, universities and colleges. The institutions at least are stationary. We know where they are and they aren't going anywhere soon. Finally, we support the provisions with respect to leases, notification of authorities and landlord participation in the process. It is only through a multi-pronged effort that this complex issue may be resolved with as little dislocation and pain for all concerned. We look forward to working with the university community and all others interested in addressing the problem. Thank you for your attention.

Thank you. Any questions for these witnesses? Councilman? Councilman, the phone call -- St. Joe's Prep called. They said that they checked your records and they found out you're one credit short of graduating from high school. You need to go back there immediately. They have nothing to do with St. Joe's University, except for the Jesuit 65 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 connection.

Do you think there was no connection between the two?

No. Sorry. I'm sure it's a mistake.

I'll check on that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay. The Wynnefield Residents Association.

Good morning. My name is Mary Kim and I'm a local merchant and also a resident --

She can't hear you, dear.

I'm sorry. I'm a local resident --

Spell your name.

Hwan Jae Kim. Mary Kim, everybody calls me. And I have a business, local merchant on 63rd. And also I am a local resident because I have second floor living --

Wasn't your 66 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 husband here the last -- was there a man here before?

No, sir. Why I'm here, I've been living at that property for years. 6 And also I've seen singles getting bigger. And 7 as they're old, they're moving. I have been 8 student neighborhood for six years. Between my 9 next neighbor building and being six years been 10 like nothing but party house. Well, what I've 11 been through, I will suffer for myself because 12 I'm a local merchant. I don't really try to guess the student, they part of also my customer, but also I have to live nighttime also was that time. My son is a teenager. He has to study and also go to school early in the morning. But we try to be nice, not to say, could you just noise, just at nighttime could you less. Let us sleep. Well, between four years, he moved out. Second time, the two years I had a kid he had -- which is apartment we're they live together. They not just party on the weekend, they even go to weekday. Start at 10 o'clock on until five o'clock in the morning. Loud music. And the landlord doesn't want to get involved. 67 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 He's my problem. He try to keep it down for me. Just talk to him. Please make some regulation timing. Well, I talked to him several times. Even my son come over. Just to make noise down until we get sleep. Could you make us sleep, please. Well, doing and doing, over and over wasn't working. Finally, I was spoke to some -- he and stop by sometimes my store. We talk sometime and I describe what I've doing. He was, again, very upset. And he say, I been on patrol for the 63rd area, and right in front of your store. And I heard so loud music. I don't know how you manage to sleep. We even music and you didn't say nothing. What should I do? We can't do nothing. Which in the next scenario I had a problem for last year. 1:30 in the morning something shook my building. Is somebody dropping a bomb on my building? I was so shocked and awake. I looked at the time. It was 1:30. I was -- my neighborhood, they bring over speaker to my roof. They party on the drum. They louder the base and it shook it. Right in front of us waiting for the moment when I came out. And I 68 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 didn't even know he behind. I was at the door, and it was a cold morning. I had to get dressed, get out there, knock on the door, what's going on? He said, well, I don't what you're talking about. But behind security, look, I heard you guys go on her roof to bring over music to the party, you better knock down, and they started -- which is change the behavior. So I talk to some university and some other people. We make which is a meeting with him, which is a great idea. Two times me and my husband and some other people and from the university too. And then I had a meeting and we got a signed-up agreement. Don't make noise, which is a timing and the weekend and like that. Well, that last me about a month. Started again. And then one of the kids, they keep all night. I have problems this time, I don't say -- I don't have to go down to knock at the door. I call the police. I'll call the security, the housing director, having them hear the music make me awake from the noise. Finally, the landlord decided not to rent to that kid anymore. So they kicked him out this year. But I've been involved 69 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 with Councilman Nutter and with the other problem. The other getting better. But which a new semester is starting. I had one instance three weeks ago. Saturday night, usually we asleep. But that day we got in late shopping and sleep a little late. My husband go out -- when people go to sleep he goes out to have a smoke. And he saw two kids passing by my alleyway. That's, like, private and they had no business passing there. My husband say, just a minute, why they passing there? Usually on the weekend I had a student urinating problem. So my husband ran back there, third one came out off the belt try to get into the place.

My husband ran out and he saw only two spots being wet and the third gotten food there, nobody can see. He was running and my husband caught him and they denied. No, I didn't do it. No, I didn't go through there. No. Then my husband said, how come you opened your belt. What's was going on? And police was a station which is begin to talk to the driver. And the student make fun of my husband. They go over there to drink beer. We didn't do it. My husband so 70 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 upset. But that time before I go out I called security and I said, look, I had a problem. In my alleyway somebody urinated and I need the police. Okay. And then I went out to help my husband and go to the police to describe what's the problem and he come over to defend myself. The police. I describe where I'm from, who am I. Well, he heard it and he heard from the student. He just yelled at the student, get the hell out of here. They said, okay.

Excuse me for one second. I hate to interrupt you. I take it from your testimony that you have some concerns about student behavior over in the part where you are and your business?

Yes, I am.

Okay. We just wanted to make sure that was clear for the record. There may be other aspects to the story that you'd like to share with us and if you wouldn't mind telling me that at the conclusion of the hearing, I'd appreciate it. We have a number of more witnesses to testify. Okay?

I see. Yes. They just 71 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 went out to the track and the security show up. And they're responsible to make -- the kids really did it, but police wasn't trying to do anything. And next day I try to contact with us what's going on problem and meeting. Well, police doesn't see at the moment, so they can't be responsible. But the kid said after, yeah, we did it. But what I'm saying we did it for community involvement. Of course, I've seen different because I've been there 12 years. I've seen different. Thank God. But this bill maybe going to change it.

Great. Thank you.

Thank you.

My name is John Mobely. I am an Overbrook Avenue -- 6300 block of Overbrook resident. I also own properties in the Wynnefield area and I'm a graduate of St. Joe's University.

You're not going to tell us the urination story again, are you?

No, I'm not. 72 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Okay. Because just for the lack of time.

I understand. I'm going to keep it short.

We've got the gist of it. She said it eloquently.

I support the ordinance 9 because I think that, with the university's growth and their prosperity as a result of this growth, there hasn't been a remedy to the community. And I think that they have a responsibility, the university that is, to manage this growth and not to make their growth the problem of the community. And these issues that have come up, have come up in direct correlation to the growth of the student body. And so the laws that are presently in place, which there are none, need to be revised to manage that group. So I think the university should be accountable to that. And I think that the student behavior, the management of that, should extend beyond the walls of the university into the community. And I think that's the spirit of the law so I support it. 73 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 The piece about police enforcement -- and I think it's a three-prong issue, the second piece being the law enforcement aspect of it. I took your advice -- and I believe his name is Captain O'Brien of the 19th District. And I went last Tuesday and I spoke to them about an officer. I won't bring his badge number up, but I'm just going to give you an indication of why I went to him. There was a call to Overbrook Avenue for an incident. The police responded. The officer, after they broke the party up, was out joking with one of the students about how he should have arrested him last week on a different incident. To me, that lack of ownership and that lack of neutrality is part and parcel of the problem. The officers don't see it as a serious issue. So the response from the police isn't really what it should be. Thirdly, I've had students -- and I have students park, litter on my property. I have young children. I live across from -- Drexel Arms is right at the corner of Overbrook. And I try to work with them. So I'll write to a note to them, please don't park beyond the poles 74 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 of my driveway, so I can get out. And I've been nice about it. I'll have students throw those notes out on my lawn. So what am I to do? To go to the university? And so I'm coming back now and saying, hey, I think that this law is necessary because I think that the university has to raise its level of accountability. I think the community has to continue to do what the community is doing right now and to stand and do nothing -- it's only going to create further problems. It's only going to raise hostility and tensions.

Did the police captain respond?

What he suggested I do is not file a formal complaint about this officer, which I followed his advice. The only way I'll know he'll respond is the next time we call 911 and the cops come and to observe how they react to these kinds of things when they happen. That's the only way I can say that he responded. Otherwise, I'm going to continue to take officers' numbers --

You should. 75 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

-- and I'm going to actually file a formal complaint but, again, I'm going to try to work through the process you know without being hostile right from the door. That's all I wanted to say.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. Fuller and Steve Jones.

Give your name for the record.

Yes. My name is John Fuller and I'm a resident of East Falls. I live across the street from Philadelphia University. I want to make two remarks. I agree wholeheartedly with the opinions of the witness who just preceded me. And I wish to take exception to the remarks made by Councilwoman Blackwell. What she perceives as negative, I and other neighbors perceive as positive, because we are the ones who are being adversely impacted by the expansion of the students and particularly automobiles. And I would like to address myself to the issue that surrounds the neighbors in East Falls. And I vigorously support Councilman Nutter's bill. And if I had any criticism at 76 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 all, it's only that it's not strong enough, not that it is too strong. Philadelphia University has recently built a new classroom building on previously undeveloped property. Students are now driving their vehicles in droves. It's like a plague of locusts on what previously had been totally quiet residential streets in East Falls. Warden Drive on Vaux Street -- I live on Vaux Street. m. m. Monday through Friday there's a constant cavalcade of automobiles coming, going parking. I have found trash on my lawn, beer cans, water bottles. Litter in the streets. This situation simply did not exist a year ago. I and my neighbor -- my neighbors and I are very, very unhappy about this recent development that has adversely impacted the quality of life in the neighborhood. We, as residents, find it difficult to find places to park on the street. Visitors cannot find a place to park on the street and service vehicles that might come, such as, you know, cable companies, plumbers, whatnot, also have a problem finding a place to park. 77 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Secondly, students are parking bumper to bumper and practically cross over into your driveway or other places where you have your vehicle and also street intersections, causing an immense safety hazard. There have already been several accidents in East Falls involving university student cars involved in collisions, because it's reduced visibility seriously in your ability to operate a vehicle safely. What I particularly want to address in my testimony is not only the need for this legislation as proposed by Councilman Nutter, to make sure that it's properly enforced. In the case of Philadelphia University, the university does provide on-campus parking facility for student vehicles. They simply don't want to use it. It is easier to drive to where I live and park your car and walk up to their new classroom building. I have cases even that I have seen on my street where there are student vehicles, who are residents on campus, who will leave their dormitories to drive a quarter of a mile, let's say, to park on my street, so it would save them a few feet in driving to the classroom. This has 78 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 a serious impact on the quality of life in the East Falls neighborhood. And what I would wish to see is giving the universities empowerment to enforce, if you will, parking rules and regulations. Philadelphia University, I believe, prohibits students in writing to park on residential streets, but there's no enforcement. And since there is no enforcement, nobody obeys it. What I am suggesting is that -- the universities have an enormous power, and that is the power to withhold grades and the power to deny you graduation if you are in violation of university rules and regulations. Other colleges and universities do this elsewhere in the country. I've have had graduates of those schools tell me about that. So I believe that the universities must be given the responsibility and accountability to control residential addresses of students and the parking problem. There is one other issue that I want to bring up about the parking problem, which is coming up very shortly. It's now fall. The leaves are coming off the tree.

And it is a 79 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 policy in East Falls neighborhoods on all the streets that you put your leaves in the street. And beginning in November, the City comes around with enormous vacuum cleaning machines that suck up the leaves. This will be impossible now because there's nothing but block-to-block, bumper-to-bumper student parking and the City will be unable to pick up the leaves come November. And I believe this is situation that will make, not only myself, but other residents very, very unhappy. So I have given a copy of my testimony to Councilman Nutter. And I want to emphasize the fact that for a neighborhood like East Falls, which has been a very quiet residential area, is now being adversely impacted by the overwhelming number of student cars that simply were not there a year ago. We now have a problem and we want to solve the problems and get rid of those automobiles parking on residential streets. I believe the mechanism does exist whereby this can be enforced. And with a little assistance from City Council I think this can be accomplished. And I would be glad to answer any 80 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 questions that you might have.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Fuller. Great testimony. Thank you.

Good morning. My name is Steve Jones. I'm with the Wynnefield Residents Association. I'm a board member there and I'm also a presidential appointee there. Right now, with us we have some block captains, committee people, neighbors, and a former graduate student from LaSalle. We support the education housing district bill and we also support the amending of it. I also notice that we have people from Temple, Penn, St. Joe's University, which is great. I'm glad that they're here so that they can hear some of our problems. Some of these people don't understand. They don't live in Wynnefield. They don't understand the problems that we're having with the students. It's not against the universities at all. It's against the students who are unruly. And not all of the students are like that. I know that some students in the back, they're probably here because they're pretty decent students evidently. The ones that make all the problems are not here. 81 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 The ones that you've got to call the police on, they're not here. Because they're only here for X amount of years. I call it a vacation, and they think that they're vacationing. They're forgetting about the residents. I also understand that this bill 8 affects just the people in the 4th District. No 9 other community at all. I did hear a comment that Councilwoman Blackwell made, which I think she disrespected Wynnefield residents, the other residents here. She also disrespected committee people, block captains and neighbors. Evidently, Councilwoman Blackwell has never been in Wynnefield or any of the other districts. Councilwoman Blackwell just don't understand. It's not -- all the problems that she has in her neighborhood, I think she needs to get into her neighborhood and find out what her problems are and let the people in Wynnefield do what they have to do. Basically, Wynnefield is a good, clean area. We care. I've been living in Wynnefield for over 30 years. I've been supportive of anything positive that's happening. 82 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 I'm also supportive of University of St. Joe's. I have worked with the university on numerous occasions. I like the university. I have no 5 problem with the university. It's just some of the students. When things aren't right, then there are laws to be made. Any kind of law -- if something isn't right, the next thing you know, lawmakers, they come up with a law. And it's because of a problem that existed and it seems like it just won't go away. That's all that I have to say. And I hope that the Councilpeople hear us and help us out.

May I make just one quick statistical comment that I forgot to make before? I made a two-week survey, September 5th to the 20th, of the parking on Vaux Street on which I live by university students. I counted 205 separate individual vehicles that were parking on Vaux Street during this two-week period of time. I have all the registration plates, which I will hand over to Councilman Nutter and his staff. Of those 205 vehicles, only 81 or 40 percent had current Philadelphia 83 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 University parking decals on the vehicle, which is in direct violation of university rules and regulations and is something that needs to be gotten under control immediately. Thank You.

The survey that you just referenced, how many homes are on that block?

Well, I would say that there are about eight homes on each side of the block between Warden Drive and Colder (ph) Street.

How many blocks from the main campus are you?

Right across the street. I live directly across from Philadelphia University, yes.

Are there any parking permits that are permitted in your neighborhood?

No. We have not gone to permitted parking, and I hope we don't. Because that also has adverse effects on all of us. That's a last resort. Last resort. We don't want it, but it may be necessary to get rid of 84 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 the student cars.

If the university paid for it?

I don't know.

If the university were to pay for it --

Oh. If the university were to pay for it, fine. Maybe they can also pay part of my real estate taxes too.

That's tomorrow's hearing. 10 o'clock.

Councilman, go do what you've got to do.

I'll be about an hour or so. I'll be in the building. I'll actually be in my office so if I am at that time for a vote, just call my office.

I hope this will be before an hour, Councilman.

I'll be in my office.

Put Councilman Nutter on.

Thank you, Mr. 85 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there's two things I'd like to do now. One, I'd like to have St. Joe's University come up. They have some testimony. But prior to that, there have been ongoing discussions with the two universities in the 4th District, both St. Joe's University and Philadelphia University, as well as a variety of students, some of whom are here day. Some are not. The students who are here, I know also want to make some testimony as well. And I guess as late as yesterday, if not last night, I've continued to talk with people in the college and university community about some of the concerns that have been raised. I will seek to address them in a number of amendments to the Bill 17 020482. There are copies available and they'll be distributed as I'm talking about them. Let me go through them, Mr. Chairman. I will offer them as a complete package during the public meeting. But I wanted to go over some of the highlights. And with that in mind, the testimony should be geared towards -- these proposed amendments are in italics, bold and underlined. 86 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Starting on of the bill, the title of the chapter which is 9-2800, in conversation with people in the real estate community, there's been a concern expressed about the futile reference to landlords. " There was a concern expressed with regard to the certification that the universities have obtained a certain percentage of their students' information with regard to their addresses. There is additional language that reads, and they shall maintain the privacy and security of all such information in accordance with the general policies, procedures and operations of the college or university regarding student data and information. That was inserted as additional protection language. There is also a concern with regard to a reporting requirement, that somehow, after 87 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 some incident may have taken place, again, that there was a belief or an impression or a reading that this particular bill was proposing to tell the colleges and universities what kind of penalties they might impose on their students. One, for the record, clearly we cannot do that. Secondly, the colleges and universities have their own disciplinary codes and policies. And so all of that language that makes reference to proposed suggestions of the type of discipline that might be imposed, I'll be proposing to delete that, and replace that with just a requirement that there be notification, that we get a copy of the college or university's policy regarding notification to the college and university student disciplinary body for violations of the provisions referenced in Section 10-1802 of the code. Additional language, a college or university shall not disclose any information to any person regarding actions taken by or final decisions made by a college or university student disciplinary body except as provided by law. There's a clarification with regard 88 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 to which students under university's policy may have vehicles on campus, and that was further expanded on page five. To read, a statement reflecting the college or university's policy regarding which categories of students (freshmen, sophomores, juniors or seniors) are permitted to own, operate or control vehicles on campus. There's additional protection language on five with regard to the provision that talks about, within 10 days of receipt of a third notice of violation by a student of the provisions of Section 10-1802, the college or university shall provide the Department with -- and the new language would be, notice as to whether the college or university student disciplinary body has been notified of such third notice of violation.

Again, the language is, a college or university shall not disclose any information to any person regarding actions taken by or final decisions made by a college or university disciplinary body except as provided by law. There's been a significant amount of concern, which I have taken very seriously, on 89 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 the issue of the sticker. The original bill 3 provided that the students would give their vehicle information to the university. The university would issue a sticker and the students would place that on the inside driver's side rear window. That has been a significant concern raised by the university, raised by the students. I've had an opportunity on two separate occasions to talk to groups of students about this, as well as a very large meeting on a university campus about 10 days or so ago on this particular issue. One, let me say that I have no interest whatsoever in this concept of profiling. Secondly, I'm also not interested in -- even if it's just a concern, raising the concern that somehow students or any other individual for that matter would somehow be targeted for potential criminal activity, theft of either their vehicle or their materials inside the vehicles. And I guess lastly, thinking even about my personal situation, I have great disdain for the yellow sticker that all Philadelphia residents have on their own vehicles, which I have also refused actually to put on my own car. I do carry it and 90 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 my car is registered and they can see it when I pull it out of my wallet. With that in mind and having given great thought to that, that provision will now be changed or is proposed to be changed, but there will still be a sticker issued by the university. The student will affix it to his or her college/university-issued identification card. It will not go on the vehicle. The rest of the language is fairly repetitive. It has more to do with what information can or cannot be disclosed or shared, again because of various provisions of either city, state or federal law. With specific provisions again stating that, no information is disclosed with regard to student disciplinary actions or what might be going on in that process. The provision with regard to college and universities' responsibility in the area of towing vehicles, that provision is to be changed. 1 of the code, provided, however, that any person who incurs a cost for the removal or towing of any vehicle pursuant to this subsection for which a college or university has issued a sticker shall recover such cost from the student or a person who owns, operates or controls such vehicle and shall notify the college and university of such cost incurred related to the removal or towing of a vehicle for which the college and university has issued a sticker. " With regard to the providing of information by landlords, that provision is also proposed to be changed such that -- the property owner or manager shall determine by September 1st of each year and maintain a current list of the names of students and their addresses and which college or university they attend, but now will not be directly required to automatically provide that information, but shall provide that 92 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 information upon written request of a college or university who is seeking verification of student residents. All the other changes of that particular provision primarily relate to the deleting of landlord and replacement by the phrase, property owner or manager. There is one additional change in the Section 9-2807, Cooperation with Enforcement Officials. Again, to provide as clear language and policy as possible with regard to information, that section will read, upon request by an appropriate official -- and then it goes on -- provided, however, that no college or university shall be required to take any action.

The additional language is, or provide any information that would violate the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act or any other provision of city, state or federal law. Those are the proposed changes to Bill 020482. " Those are the only changes to the now property owner or manager, Bill 4 020484. We can certainly have further discussion on the record about any of these proposed changes, but I wanted them on the record so that the discussion would be pertinent to what will potentially be the bill in front of us. Can we have St. Joe's University up, please?