Committee Hearing, September 24, 2002

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania September 24, 2002 10:24 a.m. - - - BILL 020408 - an ordinance amending the Philadelphia Code by adding requirements applicable to landlords... BILL 020411 - an ordinance amending Title 4 of the Philadelphia Code, Subcode A... BILL 020482 - An ordinance amending the Philadelphia Code to revise various requirements, prohibitions relating to educational housing districts... BILL 020484 - An ordinance amending Chapter 9-2400 of the Philadelphia Code... - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, Chair COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 (215) 561-2220 I N D E X BILL 020411 PAGE OTIS HAIGLER, JR., L & I ................... ROBERT D. SOLVIBILE, L & I ................. 10 JUDITH ROBINSON, N. Phila Homeowers Assoc .. 24 BILL 020482, 020484 TED GREENBERG ............................. 36 RICHARD MOSES ............................. 38 GREG JAMES ................................ 56 LOUIS ROSEN ............................... 59 KWAN JAE KIM .............................. 65 JOHN MOBELY ............................... 71 JOHN FULLER ............................... 75 STEVE JONES ............................... 80 RICHARD PASSON, St. Joseph's .............. 93 JOE MAHONEY, Phila. Chamber of Commerce ... 102 CAROL SCHEMAN, University of Penn ......... 106 TABB BISHOP, Temple ....................... 113 MARY KATE MCGINTY, University of Sciences . 118 MARY YOUNG, Assoc. of Independent Colleges and Universities of Pennsylvania ..... 121 EDWARD TUREANSKI, LaSalle University ...... 135 KYLE BRUNO ................................ 139 MATT DRAKE ................................ 144 DOMINIC VERDI, L & I ...................... 145 DUANE BUMB, Deputy Commerce Director ...... 154 3 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020408

This is a hearing of the Committee of Licenses and Inspection. The Committee will hear testimony on Bills 020411, 020482, 020484 and 020408. And we will not be hearing Resolution 020156, the one that pertains to tow trucks, so if anyone is here for that, you can stay if you want because it's really exciting, so stick around for exciting business. We have a quorum. I have Councilman Frank Rizzo, Councilwoman Blondel Reynolds-Brown, Councilman Michael Nutter, myself, Councilman Mariano, who are members of the Committee and we have Councilwoman Blackwell, who is not a member of the committee, but is going to sit in anyhow. The Clerk will read the title of Bill 17 020408.

Bill 020408, an ordinance 19 amending the Philadelphia Code by adding requirements applicable to landlords who rent to students in Educational Housing Districts, and to the colleges and universities attended by such students and by making technical changes, all under certain terms and conditions.

Councilman 4 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 Nutter, this bill is replacing Bill 020484. Do you wish to hold this bill or withdraw this bill?

020408 is going to be withdrawn.

He's going to withdraw 020408. The Clerk will read the title of 020411.

Bill 020411, an ordinance 11 amending Title 4 of the Philadelphia Code, Subcode A, The Philadelphia Administrative Code, Chapter 3, to amend Section A3034.2 to require notice of demolition to residents of neighboring properties, all under certain terms and conditions.

Okay, we'll have people for testimony. The Councilman wants to bring the neighborhood groups up first, okay, because he knows that you're making a whole lot of money and you get paid sitting here or not. They have to go home and take care of their business. Come on up. So the neighborhood groups that want to come up -- Michael, who do you want first? Does it matter? 5 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. They're kind of all here, both as representing specific neighborhood organizations as well as individuals. I believe we have representatives from the Wynnefield Residents Association, as well as the Overbrook Farms Club East. And why don't we just get representatives from both of the groups up at the table and then any other constituents.

Wait a second. I made a mistake here. We read 411, so we're actually on Councilman Clarke's bill. Do we want to change any of the other ones? He only has three witness, Councilman Clarke. Let's bring Councilman Clarke's witnesses up here. Councilman? The one we read, 020411.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this particular bill was a bill that we introduced based on concerns that had been raised over a number of years with respect to impromptu demolition in communities. It was told to me, and I've witnessed instances where the first time individuals on a block knew that there was going to be demolition was when 6 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 the dumpster was dropped on the sidewalk. So as a result of that, we put a bill in place. We actually will be offering some amendments to date, of which I have distributed to members of the committee to ensure that individuals who will be mostly affected will receive proper notification. And I believe that the Department of L & I is here to testify today with respect to the bill and subsequent amendments.

Who do you want to go first? You going to let L & I go first?

Mr. Haigler and Mr. Solvibile.

Mr. Haigler, go ahead.

Good day, Councilman Mariano and members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Junior, Legislator of Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today, I am here to provide testimony on Bill 020411, which would amend the Philadelphia Code to require notice of demolition to residents of neighboring properties, introduced by Councilman Clarke on June 6, 2002. 7 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 The Department fully supports the intent and spirit behind this legislation and believes that, if it is effectively implemented, it could greatly assist in making community members aware of potentially critical changes, specifically the demolition of certain properties within their neighborhood. The Administration supports and shares the belief that community residents deserve sufficient understanding of any potentially significant changes in the very neighborhoods they call home. However, the Department respectfully requests that certain technical changes be made to the legislation to ensure that the department can carry out the intent of the legislation efficiently. " If the goal of the legislation is to inform the individuals residing near a property that will soon be demolished, it may be more accurate to refer to the distribution as informational bulletins. Second, the Department has concerns 8 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 regarding the requirement that such informational bulletins be distributed to residents of all neighboring properties situated within 100 feet in any direction of the property to be demolished. It is our goal to have the informational bulletins be both descriptive and effective. To this end, we feel that both the term, resident, and the requirement that properties be situated within 100 feet in any direction may cause confusion among staff when this legislation is put into practice. Therefore, it is the Department's belief that if the legislation was more specific in the properties that were to receive the informational bulletins, it would be more effective. Recognizing this, the Department respectfully requests, that rather than attempting the potentially difficult task of trying to identify residents, or the even more potentially difficult task of trying to accurately determine 100 feet from the structure to be demolished, the Department be permitted to distribute the informational bulletins to the front doors of the following properties: The three nearest 9 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 properties on each side of the subject property; the seven nearest properties across the street from the subject property; and the seven nearest properties to the rear of the subject property. Third, it is respectfully requested that for emergency curbside demolition, that the Department be permitted to distribute the informational bulletin only to those properties abutting the property which is to be demolished. Finally, it is respectfully requested that with regard to the timing and the distribution of the informational bulletins, that the bulletins are distributed either within 10 days of the issuance to the owner of the building permit to demolish, or service by the Department of a notice requiring demolition or an award of a demolition contract by the department. Again, in suggesting this change, it is the Department's intent to have the informational bulletins be as effective as possible. It is our belief that by distributing the informational bulletins, as I have described, allows for the notice to arrive in a more timely fashion in relation to the potential demolition. 10 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 I have attached a draft of all the changes, amendments -- all suggested amendments for the committee's review. Again, please allow me to emphasize that the Administration supports the intent and spirit of this legislation. The amendments are respectfully suggested in order to allow the Department to more effectively and practically implement this legislation.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before this committee today. And I would be happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.

Are there any questions for Mr. Haigler, or do you want to let Mr. Solvibile go and then question them both at once? Okay, Mr. Solvibile. Bob, you can testify and then I'll ask you both questions.

I would like to add that the Department fully supports the measures as outlined by Mr. Haigler as far as the informational bulletins and notification to the adjoining properties. 11 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 I would like to point out that presently, the Department inspects the adjacent properties where the people are available to us. Even on emergency demolitions where a building is in a state of collapse, we inspect it for the safety of the occupants of the attached building, so that's something we presently do. And we'll now also give them an informational bulletin, which should also help. I would add that we are not against posting to go with the original intent on a couple telephone poles, the intent that we'll demolish the building. I would also add that under the Mayor's NTI program there is a public outreach component of that which will notify the communities of our intended demolitions. And in most Councilmatic districts there's community meetings that will be taking place. I know in some areas that we've already done the communities have met with us in making choices of what would be demolished and we also have gone to several meetings. I also would like this legislation to state that the owner is responsible for 12 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 distributing the information bulletins on a private demolition, not that the department would. Our forces are rather thin. And for inspectors to be doing this would take up a lot of our time that we would not be able to inspect buildings. Thank you for your time. I'm sorry. I didn't say my name. My name is Robert D. Solvibile, Sr. I'm first Deputy Commissioner of Licensing and Inspections.

I just want to make note for the record that Councilwoman Krajewski and Councilman DiCicco is over there. They're here present today.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have of couple questions. One, with respect to the private demolition you indicated is the responsibility of the owner of the property, are they given any guidelines in terms of notification? And secondly, if they do not notify those owners, what's the enforcement mechanism in place?

Presently, for 13 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 private demolitions owners are responsible to -- L & I presently posts the property with a notice that this building will be demolished on private demolitions. We would hand to the owner a form that we're going to have the Law Department make up as far as the informational bulletin, how we want it to read. And the owner would then be responsible for distributing it and give us a certified letter, a letter certifying that he or she has had the information distributed. If they don't do this, then we will not allow the demolition to continue.

I just wanted to bring a little clarity to a part of your testimony. You referenced NTI. This is not NTI related. This will be a City-wide focus. NTI will be narrowly focused in specific neighborhoods. So I just wanted to make it understood that this is a non-NTI notification process.

I put that in because we're imposing upon ourselves with NTI a more stringent obligation of notifying the community that neither this bill is outlining, which is 14 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 what the Mayor and Administration desires and Council people we've dealt with desire this to be for NTI demolitions.

Assuming this bill is passed, can you give me a guesstimate on the time line of when the forms will be ready that are being put together by the Law Department; when individuals or individuals contracted with the City of Philadelphia or private individuals who are seeking demolition permits will be required to start posting these notices?

I'm sure that we could time line -- the form will be made up with Mr. Haigler and Mary Schmidt from the Law Department working on that. As we speak, we've talked about having a form made up, and the Law Department is doing that for us to make sure the legal language is there. So that should be done hopefully even before this passes in Council. And then as far as the notices, the posters that we would put up, I think it would be sufficient -- and that's why we're here -- to a notice of the information bulletin that we give 15 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 out to the people to be posted, maybe on the front of the house, and we can post it on a couple light poles -- telephone poles. I couldn't remember the name, telephone poles. So there would be notification to the community. That, Councilman, I think could be done immediately.

All right. My biggest concern is that the individuals who live on the block receive notification in their mail slot, in their hand. Because the reality is, in a lot of instances when you post a sticker, the demolition sticker on the property to be demolished, if in fact that individual is in close proximity who owns that property and close proximity of that property, those posters are taken off before the glue gets dried. And I'm assuming that in addition to that they will also take down whatever notice are posted on poles. And we can do that, but I'm just concerned that those individuals directly affected receive proper notification.

Right. And absolutely we agree. Now, this would be 16 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 non-emergency, curbside bid-type buildings that L & I does not bid as an emergency. They're excluded from this bill, as I understand it, Councilman?

Well, one of the issues -- I mean, you referenced in the amendment that within days that an emergency demolition 9 should take place. 10

That's correct. About 10 days. As you know sometimes, Councilman, the need to do it is immediate and sometimes it's not quite immediate, within the next several days.

The curbside demolitions I'm okay with because more often than not curbside demolitions are driven by collapse or driven by community complaint as we're out walking the neighborhoods, so there's some -- by virtue of that there's notification of the residents, sometimes the entire block.

Absolutely.

But what I want to specify is that it's only in those instances. I don't want it to be a situation where we say 17 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 that the property is imminently dangerous and it's going to come down, and then it doesn't happen in six months. All right. And I've seen instances where we've done that before. I want to make sure to specify that it's only in cases of extremely imminently dangerous buildings, buildings that have collapsed or buildings that are in danger of collapsing within the next few hours. I don't want to have an open-ended situation where you can say it's imminently dangerous and we don't do anything about it.

It will be absolutely declared imminently dangerous by the Department. And in our opinion right now, basically, Councilman, we're only doing, as far as Licenses and Inspections is concerned, that type of property. And the other properties that are being demolished, we're waiting for the NTI package to be put together in that district, which is a lot more efficient and it's more beneficial to the district and to the citizens in that area.

So more often than not when it's an imminently dangerous 18 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 building, we have at least one inspector, probably more than one inspector on site?

Yes. For a curbside bid there's usually two inspectors at my insistence because of taking bids. And this way there's a witness to what our inspectors are doing. They witness each other. So, yes, there would be two inspectors at all times at a curbside bid, at least two.

And they're required to go to the adjacent properties?

Absolutely. If we can get into the adjacent properties they need to make an inspection for structural purposes of the adjacent attached properties. If they can't get in they're to leave a card and come back as soon as that person contacts them. Now, in some cases, people, as you know, Councilman, don't want us in there, but we make the best attempt we can. And if we see something in the course of the demolition that we don't like on the party wall or something at that house next door, we'll stop it and then just find where the owner is and get an inspection of the 19 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 interior of the property. Our concern is always the safety of the occupants in the property.

I understand. Since the inspectors required if you can gain access to inspect the party wall and other structural issues within those adjacent buildings and he's required to leave a card, I'm asking you can he also leave that form that we would mail out?

Absolutely. I'm sorry, Councilman. That's understood. They will leave that form with the occupants of that house.

Or the bulletin?

The informational bulletin, yes.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Okay. That's it from the Administration. You guys have anything else? Community groups. Marta Brooks, Senior Citizens, and Judith Robinson. You guys can come up together.

State your name 20 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 for the record.

Marta Brooks. I am a staff attorney with Senior Law Center. We were formerly, as of a few months ago, known as Senior Citizen Judicare Project, which I think most of you know us as. We're now Senior Law Center. We provide free legal services to people 60 and older. The reason why we're here is because one the types of cases that we handle are cases that involve legal issues surrounding problems with City contracted demolition work. Some of those problems involve property damage to neighboring properties as a result of demolition work. We definitely are strongly in support of this bill. We're very happy to see it. We think it begins to address some of the issues regarding the current demolition program and changes that we believe should be made with it. As Councilman Clarke mentioned, we have similar experiences with our clients where typically they will describe that they wake up one morning, a scary morning, and just hear something crash and they don't know what it is 21 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 and it's the house next door. So we believe that it's very important to impose this notice requirement on L & I and, frankly, it's common courtesy to the citizens of the City. We would add a few things, in our opinion. We hope that there could be some kind of penalty imposed if the notice requirement is not satisfied by L & I. We think that it's always important to have some sort of a penalty. Hopefully, it won't be needed, but if it could be consistently and diligently imposed, I think it would go a long way towards making sure that people are always notified about these situations, particularly because the people living next door are just sometimes innocent victims of certain things that go on with the demolition work. The other thing I would mention -- and obviously, you know, we're an office who people only come to us if they have a problem. And certainly there are times when there's absolutely no problem, so I'm not trying to imply that there's always a problem with demolition work. But in our opinion, we believe that added 22 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 to the notice should be information regarding the city inspector who has been assigned to handle the demolition work as well as information regarding the contractor hired by the City to do the work. So that if there is a problem, the people next door know the appropriate parties to contact. So we believe that included with a notice should be the name, address and telephone number of the city inspector assigned to oversee the demolition work, as well as the name, address and telephone number of the contractor who's been hired to do the work.

On that, and this is from experience, not that particular issue, but dealing with city inspectors, they're never in the office. I would rather that you would call Solvibile or Verdi or somebody like that. Because if they're not in the office, they don't have a message machine, they have a secretary and a number you can get. Inspectors, from my dealing with -- it's good idea. You're right. If not them, their bosses. They go out in the morning, and if you don't know their schedule, some go out in the afternoon, it can 23 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 take weeks to get those guys.

I agree.

But the thought is there. The spirit is there.

We certainly know that if we want to get an inspector, often we've got to call them at 8:30 in the morning. There are some, yes, who are definitely there just in the afternoons. I don't know what Mr. Solvibile would say. I would think --

I'll give you his cell phone number for $20.

Well, I think it would be very difficult for all of the calls just to go there --

Okay, $10.

Just to go to his office.

Five.

And the city inspector -- you know, this is one of the issues that we have is city inspectors should be involved. And we would be so happy if we could talk to the city inspector and really get them to hear what we're 24 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 saying before we have to file a claim with the City, before we have to bring litigation. It's not something that we want to do. We are very happy to settle cases. But, unfortunately, to date we've settled very few and they've all mostly gone to litigation. So that would be our suggestion. We're strongly in favor of the bill. We think it's great to see, but we would add those things.

Good suggestions. Thank you. Ms. Robinson.

Yes. Thank you. My name is Judith Robinson. I'm here as an advocate for North Philadelphia, Homeowners Association of North Philadelphia. And I, too, thank my Councilman. After many calls to his office, I'm sure, and I know for myself asking him for something in this regard. But it's truly unfortunate that half of our North Philadelphia neighborhood has been disrespectfully demolished, torn down and then we get this notification bill. I'm concerned that it's not far reaching enough. I'm a real estate broker, and I know an appraiser 25 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 looks at a one-mile radius when appraising the value of a property. When a property is demolished in a neighborhood, it's not some small little secret that should be disclosed only to the people two doors down, three doors down. When dust flies, it flies throughout our neighborhood. So I would request that it be a more far reaching notification. It's a neighborhood that's being affected, not just one block. So I would respectfully request that it be more notification. Because community participation is very much a part of what makes a community grow. If a community is not aware of what's being done in their neighborhood, then I don't think you can expect positive community participation, and we know in Philadelphia it's sorely needed, especially in neighborhoods like North Philly that over the years have been demolished in a very disrespectful manner. I am very much concerned about documentation prior to any properties being demolished. I have checked violations on properties and have seen violations, such as there's a tree in the backyard affecting the 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 structure of the property. Well, if that tree was removed you would have a perfectly solid house that would not have to be demolished. So I'm concerned that properties are being demolished that, in fact, could be salvaged. We have talked about this in community planning meetings over this past summer and, according to a workshop we had on June 25th, the community requested respectfully of our Councilman, Darrell Clarke, that the community is consulted prior to demolition. They, in addition, requested that demolition be reduced in our community. We've had vacant lots as a part of our community for the past 30 years. Some of this land is still here, vacant open space. We want some development on these properties on this vacant land. So generally, I'm happy about the notification process, however there are many more documentations that we are requesting in our community. We don't want this notification to be sort of an okay, that it's okay if you notify a few people here and there, that it's okay to come and tear down our neighborhood. We are 27 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 respectfully requesting that there been a moratorium on demolition in North Philadelphia until we can get some of these issues addressed. I understand that there's some properties that are supposedly imminently dangerous, but every time we go to the violations, there's nothing that warrants the ID in a lot of cases, I'll say. Let me not say all cases, but a lot of cases there's nothing to warrant the ID, identification that could not be repaired if we plan to and there was money behind it to do it. So I am asking that prior to all of this notification, that there been more planning prior to demolition so then the community would participate in it and through one of the old practices of word of mouth, et cetera, in addition to the written notification, our community will be well aware of what's going on as far as demolition is concerned. And in closing. I thank this young lady brought up some excellent points. It should be some teeth into this legislation. It should be some penalties if, in fact, this is not done. We have health issues in our community. We don't 28 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 want to just know just because we're just interested in being nosy.

We want to know because we want to take precautions. We have health issues. Our seniors, we're concerned about respiratory issues, et cetera. We want to know about demolition prior to it taking effect because of this. And we want someone around that can give us some answers when this demolition is, in fact, taking place. About distribution and closing, I would suggest that possibly block captains could be used in this process. Most of them are very much willing to participate, and they could be a point of reference to notify the community. In addition, if you mail out a letter, I understand it has to go through the City's channels, so by the time someone actually gets it several days have passed. So I would like to say when you talk about notification, if it does take place through the mail, that it be 10 days from the postmark date. And thank you very much for listening.

Thank you, 29 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 ma'am. Anybody else to testify on this bill?

Can I comment on one thing? I know I'm pushing my luck. I'll be, like, seconds. 7

Okay. 8

I thought it was a great 9 point about -- and I know this is for another 10 time -- but really making sure that properties that are designated as needing to be demolished really do need to be demolished, because we're taking down a lot of our real homes. It's part of our City. And we have seen cases where -- and at least one successfully we were able to show that a house did not need to be demolished. So that's a great issue.

Thank you. Any questions from anybody up here? Councilman Clarke.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, with respect to a couple of issues raised by the individuals testifying, I think that prior to final passage of the bill we can have some dialogue with respect to the 30 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020411 formulation of the notice. With respect to the expanding notification, that's an issue that, frankly speaking, is administrative. Knowing City Government, we sometimes have a difficult enough time implementing the current legislation, so I don't know if we have the wherewithal to expand it. What I would like to do is pass the bill with the amendments that I have distributed. If there is a need to expand the notification process, we can talk about that. But I'm just concerned about our ability, frankly speaking, to administer the current bill and to expand it. I'm not sure that we would be in a position to do that, but I'm more than willing to continue that discussion. With respect to the trigger, upon the receipt of the notification, I think that that's something we can do -- Mr. Solvibile, as he shakes his head yes -- so the 10-day notification will be triggered by the receipt of the particular --

Excuse me, Councilman. We intend to distribute the notices by hand. 31 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

And that will trigger the 10-day notification?

That will trigger the day -- that will trigger the 10 days when 6 they're distributed by hand, either by the 7 owner's representatives or by City 8 representatives, it will distributed. And as you 9 say it's hard -- it's easier said than done to 10 get the whole system in place, to be able to do it efficiently and make sure it's done.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. The Clerk will read the title of Bill 16 020482.

An ordinance amending the Philadelphia Code to revise various requirements, prohibitions relating to Educational Housing Districts, by amending Chapter 10-1800, "Vicarious Liability for Student Conduct," including revising the definition of the term, responsible party; amending Chapter 9-2400, "Universities and Students," including by revising student address notification 32 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 requirements applicable to students, universities and colleges; revising requirements on students and colleges and universities regarding the students vehicles; revising requirements on colleges and universities regarding the provision to the City of certain policies and information; adding certain requirements applicable to landlords; adding certain reporting requirements; adding certain requirements regarding cooperation with enforcement officials; and making technical changes all under certain terms and conditions.

Thank you, Mr. Allen. Councilwoman Blackwell wants to make a statement for the record.

Thank you very much. And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for permitting me to speak because I have to speak at a ground-breaking at CHOP, and therefore I have to leave.

It's not a college, is it, or a university?

In fact, it's pretty close to that. But certainly we have 33 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 had a lot to say on this issue from its inception. We believe that it is the responsibility of the universities in our City and beyond to certainly work with the community. And the incidence of my district and in other districts around the City, we have an excellent relationship where we work hand-in-hand to serve the communities in which these universities reside. We believe that a better use of university funds, as opposed to setting up some law enforcement or law abiding or law -- or any law-making apparatus would be certainly to devote those funds into positive activities for our community. I believe that a bill such as this is negative. I don't believe in negative legislation. I believe that it is in the interest and it is the responsibility of legislators to certainly work positively, in a positive manner to support universities, to support communities who elect us. And we do that by coming up with positive programs for the two entities and certainly by not coming up with negative legislation that certainly serves to not 34 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 only hurt universities in terms of people -- prospective students who would apply, but hurt the City, hurt all of us. Not only that, finally, let me say that I believe it even as almost -- it's a real challenge to enforce any kind of legislation that says a university can enforce whether a kid gets a ticket. I think it's just unrealistic. Whether a kid gets a ticket, whether a kid acts disorderly, all of that. We have law enforcement entities. Certainly we have a Police Department. We have University City District in West Philadelphia. Other universities hire private law enforcement groups who do that, like Spectaguard. And it just becomes an unrealistic situation. I would hope as I leave -- and I'm sorry rushing -- that members of this Committee would consider that it is also the challenge of government to come up with feasible legislation that serves us all in a positive manner, and not negative legislation that may be almost impossible to set up, to enact possibly. But to enforce that really, in the final analysis, helps no one, but creates a real fight between us when 35 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 we just don't need it. I'll take those funds for any positive programs, such as many of the hundreds of those that we have in part from University of Pennsylvania, from Drexel, from USP and many others beyond. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Councilwoman. Okay. We're going to take the community groups first, so come on up. Community groups. State your name for the record, sir.

Thank you, Councilman. My name is Ted Greenberg and I live at 6092 Drexel Road, adjacent to the Overbrook train station. And I own rental property at 2125 and 2115 North 63rd Street, which is rented by some students and by working people as well. So, as such, I'm addressed by both sides of this legislation, as a landlord as well as a family person who gets myself and my family woken up by the students in the middle of the night. However, this legislation is addressed to additional penalties that apply after a conviction is made for what I will call a violation of quality of life issues; drunkenness, loitering, loud public disturbances and so forth, 36 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 and has been brought up by Councilman Ortiz in the first hearing. What we really need here is stepped-up enforcement. I am out at night sometimes with patrol and I will see drunk students, loud students and the officers will say, be quiet, go home. The same kid is back there the next night. Okay. So the issues that are brought up in this really don't even come to play unless there is a violation and a conviction. I know it's not Council's prerogative to require enforcement, but that is support taken to this issue. Additionally, we talked to the university that there should be further -- they say they can't even publicize when there is a violation because of other legislation. So we understand in the community that of the 3,600 St. Joseph's students, there's only a hundred or 200 that are really causing the bad problems. And perhaps the -- it was just said previously it can be worked out where the good students will actually be the enforcement on there. I would also then go back to the landlord side. Understandably, you have an 37 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 arbitrary number for the number of apartments, percentages and rentals and so forth. However, as an owner of property with only units, four 5 of which are rented to students, the 25 percent 6 regulation comes into play and adds severe 7 hardships. You're talking about a landlord 8 having to pay for an L & I inspection. Well, 9 L & I inspections are a fact of life if you own 10 property. If you have a violation, you remedy 11 them. Being charged for them just because you 12 have students in them is an unfair stipulation, I feel. Okay. Thank you very much.

Good morning. My name is Richard Moses. I live at 6323 Overbrook Avenue. And I'm just going to be very brief to say that the amended bill that's being put before you is one that I think is probably not as strong the other one. I would have supported the other one. I don't see this as negative legislation. I think that the disruptive things that have happened in the community need to be addressed. And I think it starts with the university, having worked in education myself. And then you look at the landlords. 38 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 I think if they aren't held in check they can hold the students accountable. We have seen some improvement this year in our work with the university in terms of how the students have responded. It's not perfect, but I think we're headed in the right direction. So I would, on behalf of the 63rd Street Block Association and my wife, Sheila Royal Moses, who is a member of the Overbrook Farms Club, support this bill and hope that maybe in the future -- to the Councilwoman's comments earlier that she sees this as negative legislation, I don't see it that way. I think if she experienced some of the things that we have she wouldn't view it that way. But if we start here, then maybe in the future we can pull back as things get to where they need to be. But they clearly are not right now. So that's my perspective on this. Thank you.

Thank you. Before you two guys leave, I have some questions and there might be some questions from the board. The first guy -- I'm sorry, I forgot your name.

Ted Greenberg. 39 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

You own rental property, plus you live there; is that correct?

That's correct. I've lived in the neighborhood for 28 years.

If you call whatever police district that is out there --

19th.

19th -- they don't handle this without this legislation?

What has happened, for example, just last weekend I was awakened by loud noises, students most who were -- appeared to be drunk. The officers were there. There is a police presence, I believe, paid for by the university for extra patrol. And I'd say, "Hey, there's a problem here." And they go over and go, "Hey, you guys are being loud. Can you just quiet it down and go home?" And the guys are just standing there. One guy is literally falling down drunk. Okay. And the next night I'll see the same guys. I'll hear the same noise. What I'm suggesting is that if the enforcement was actually taking place, if they 40 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 had gotten disturbing the peace citations or drunk and disorderly there might be a little further things. And again the stipulation the university says they cannot take sanctions until there is a conviction. Understood. So if there is no enforcement, there is no conviction and there is no sanctions.

See, my thought on this -- and this is no disrespect to either of you, because I hear your pain. I can tell for you to come down here and take off from work or whatever you're doing it's important, no matter what side you're on. And it's also important to me and to us. I grew up at Juniata Park across from a playground. My father was a retired master chief in the United States Navy. He had no 19 problem dealing with people with his mouth or with his hands, if it got to that. Living across from a playground was a great, great thing because as the City changed, there's a need for parking spots, so we always had extra parking spots outside. So when my brother and I got cars there was never jockeying that you need to do in 41 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 certain neighborhoods. But one of the down sides across from the playground -- and I personally never did it, but I think my brother did it. He's a couple years younger than me. People drank in that playground. And you got to realize this is the '60s and '70s and people like my father dealt differently with youths at the time. If my father came out -- his reputation may have preceded him -- they left. But he also knew to go to the guy down the street who may have known these kids. You don't have that in this situation. But what would happen now in that same neighborhood -- and my father is not alive anymore -- but the people who live in that house still have people that take advantage of that public recreation center. And there's one across from the street -- almost across the street from me where I live on the other side. When I see a police car go out and do what you told me about, Councilman or not, I'd take that number of that car down and I'd call my district Councilman and I'd call that police captain and I would say, look, 243 was out here. There were 13 kids 42 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 obviously drunk. I want to see a police report. And, guess what, somebody better have been arrested because that Councilman doesn't -- I mean, that police captain does not want to hear from a City Councilman or even an irate neighbor. You got to keep going over this and this. I'm not sure where I am with this legislation. I voted on the first one with Michael. I'm hearing different things from different universities. And again, I was teasing a little bit about St. Joe's moving, but I would have love have them up there. And I don't know if that would happen where I'm at, but that's certainly the Councilman's right. You got to deal with these laws that are on board. So Councilwoman Blackwell wasn't totally out of line with what she said. I mean, she firmly believed that. My sons visit a frat house at 33rd and Powelton at Drexel. My son is the president of the Greek Association at Drexel. For short I call his house "animal house." Now, his is the house the rich kids basically don't get in. They're mostly middle class and poorer kids of 43 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 all races get in that one. So they're away from home for the first time. His first year, I would surprise visit him. There's a lot of bad behavior that goes on there. And in their world it may not be bad behavior, but it is bad behavior, that there's parties going on. Drexel has police, but they're not police like Penn has or St. Joe's -- and I don't know with St. Joe's, but Temple has real police. Penn does. St. Joe's might have what Drexel has, security guards with no arrest power.

Security guards, that's correct.

As my son got older, now he's in fourth year of his five years at Drexel. He's the president of the house, too. Now it's up to him because if they get thrown out of that house, he has to answer to an alumni association. So what I'm saying is, there are routes available here, which may be this legislation. It may not be. You got to deal with those police captains. I'm sure Councilman Nutter would gladly deal with it if you don't feel comfortable doing it. 44 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 The police captains -- my police captains know me by my first name. And I don't harass them on anything, but when it's important they understand. It's a lot frustration. You shouldn't have to do that because you're trying to live a decent life, quality of life.

Right.

But when you bought those houses, St. Joe's was probably there.

St. Joe's did not have the presence they've had over the past several years.

This is something that happened in the last 10 years?

The number of students has gone up and the number of students on campus or in the community. St. Joe's over the years had half as many students, and most of the students were commuters. They lived in Delaware County, Montgomery County and around. The university now --

So they've expanded without building more dorms? 45 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

That is correct, without building more university housing, supervised housing.

Okay. Thank you. Councilman Nutter wants to say something on that, and then Councilwoman Reynolds-Brown.

Just very quickly on that particular point, Mr. Chairman. While this process is going on, there is a very active process going on in the neighborhood with regard to the issue that the gentleman raised. There is a pending proposal to significantly expand university housing in the Wynnefield section of Philadelphia, right at 54th and City Avenue. Popeye's parking lot, a series of commercial buildings on the 54th Street side going down City Avenue to 52nd Street. That is a very real, very live project. And, quite honestly, as we move toward that, that really is a part of the real solution to dealing with many of these issues. But even if we broke ground tomorrow, you're still at least 18 months away 46 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 from having that kind of project up. I think the university understands, and we're certainly very proud that population has increased significantly. We're a little short on housing and, certainly, housing under the university's jurisdiction. They've clearly figured out they need more housing and I'm supporting that particular development project. That's really where we want to be.

Councilman, we understand that. And I was speaking with a gentleman from the university regarding that this morning. The problems that this addresses is not as much students who are living in university housing, it's the ones that are living in privately uncontrolled properties --

Definitely off campus.

-- who are throwing the parties that attract the students from the university housing.

So like the Councilman said they're off property -- I mean, they're off St. Joe's property. 47 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Right. So the building of more housing just means that they'll have to walk from 54th Street instead of from Cardinal Avenue.

I understand. I mean, there are a couple of different issues here. One, there is a significant amount of unsupervised student housing interspersed in the neighborhood. St. Joe's University is virtually surrounded by a residential community. We understand that. That's why there's a separate bill specifically dealing with some landlord issues. All of this comes together at a time where you have a proposed development project and the time in between today and when those first students start living wherever they're going to be living. You're absolutely correct. In the university-controlled or operated or even master-leased housing we've seen problems significantly drop because there is supervision.

Agreed.

We are working with the university. There's been a tremendously 48 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 cooperative partner in all of this. But we have a number of different, I guess, goals, I would say, that are all happening at the same time. Some of which are conflicting with each other.

I think Councilwoman Reynolds-Brown is next, and then Councilwoman Krajewski.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I need to first underscore Councilman Nutter's statement that the university has been a terrific partner in working with the community, to the credit of the community who made it exceedingly clear that you have to be a terrific partner, that a structure that is going up at 54th and City Avenue, the university scaled back because the community was vigilant in saying eight stories is simply too high in a community where you have three-story buildings. So that dialogue that took place over the past year has yield an acceptable, reasonable product for all sides involved. The Chairman of the committee, raises an interesting observation that is related to a conversation I was having side-bar with 49 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Councilman Nutter, and that is freshman, I think, come with an additional burden being new students and all that that means. Having spent a number of years in higher education, I believe that freshman should be given some level of consideration because they are new. In your experience as a landlord, have you noticed that problems and issues die with older students than the younger students, or does it make a difference?

The university requires freshman to live on campus in supervised housing. And I understand freshman who went there this year, the sophomore -- have to live there as freshman and sophomores. So as such I only see juniors and seniors as tenants. Okay. They, as a rule -- at least the seniors usually realize, oh, I've been screwing up for three years. I've got to hit the books finally. Okay. I pretty much do a heavy screening in saying, look, this is not the such and such apartment building. You're not going to party here.

On that question can I ask you one -- who's worse, boys or girls? 50 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 I know somebody told me that --

Girls have fewer problems, but when they're at bad parties, they're bad.

They bring the bad boys over with them, huh? It was probably Councilman Nutter during his college days. That's what he's getting back, trying to level it out.

Just an aside. When you mentioned the parking across the street, just this morning I had to tow a student car out of my lot.

Now, you are indeed in an awkward circumstance. And I thank you for your testimony, but I can't figure out where your are with this bill. Do you believe this bill to be reasonable or not?

I believe that something needs to be done, okay? Parts of the bill I find are reasonable. The concept of students having to register with the university as to where they live, absolutely. The university is somewhat still acting as locum 51 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 parentis. And to have a situation where they don't know where a student is residing, that they think this person who's living on 63rd Street lives in Connecticut or Douglasville, is inappropriate in case they need to be reached to move their car, perhaps is number one. The concept of the university and the parents having -- taking responsibility of students who are over 21, I'm not sure the legality on that issue. Okay. So I'm not really going to comment there. This is a bill that came about out of desperation.

Desperation on behalf of whom?

The community. Until a few years ago we were not getting the cooperation we're getting now with the university. Again, the university has said that they will enforce dismissal or other issues regarding students, but only when they're notified by the police that the student has violated the law. Okay. Again, we're saying that it's only 200 out of 3,000 students.

And that's based 52 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 on what? Is that based on actual documentation of incidents?

No, that's just a guesstimate. That's just a guesstimate. Again, if I assume half of them live in supervised housing and the problem is not while they're in the supervised housing, when they're --

Off campus.

-- off campus. And very often, as you say, it may be the freshman, who it's their first time, you know, being at a keg party and they don't know better. I have had instances just this past weekend of hearing -- at two or so in the morning being woken by a female voice on my lawn saying, "No, I'm not going back to your dorm room." I got dressed, went downstairs and went to the two women. I went down and ascertained that the women were not in danger at that point, predominately because the guy who she was trying not to go back with had passed out on my lawn. And when his buddy tried to wake him up and said, "You're going back." 53 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 He said, "No, no, no. We're going to Manayunk to party." At that point he said, "No, we're taking you home." And I said, do you want me to call the university to get you an escort, a vehicle ride? "No, we'll be fine." So they got up and walked away from City Avenue. I followed them and said, "Guys, that's not where the dorms are." "Oh, okay. We'll go back." But this is typical of the -- again, and it's not the bulk of the students, because I never see a thousand students out on 63rd Street.

So let me pose this final question. Do you believe this bill is moving in the right direction?

Yes. Yes. With enforcement it allows the university to then do self-policing in getting that minority of students who are the problems out of the university and, therefore, out of our community. Yes. 54 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Okay. Thank you very much, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Councilwoman Krajewski.

Councilman Nutter, I just wanted to ask one question. Will this have any effect on any of the other universities in this City or what? Councilman?

Councilman Nutter.

I'm waiting on a microphone. Thank you. Councilwoman, as the bill is drafted, no, it will not. The only colleges and universities affected by this are those that are located within the 4th Councilmatic District. Those are specifically St. Joseph's University and Philadelphia University in East Falls. None of the other provisions of this bill or the other bill apply or have any impact or effect on any other college or university.

Thank you, Councilman. 55 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Thank you.

Do you have anything else to say, sir? I'm sorry.

I just wanted to say, I understand there is opposition from some of the other universities that are not in the district. We live in this community. We would like to see this happen. If they do the right thing, they shouldn't have anything to worry about, as far as we're concerned, so I just wanted to share that.

We hear you. Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to come out. Next witnesses.

Good morning, Council. It's been a long time. Glad to see you all. Unfortunately, I hate to have to come back and talk about this bill, which has plagued my community for the last 10 years. My name is Greg James in case you've all forgotten. I'm president of the Overbrook Farms East Residents Association. I no longer work for the City of Philadelphia, thank God.

You're not 56 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 moving out, though. You're going to stay, right?

I intend to stay, but the attitude in what has happened makes it very hard. The gentlemen that testified before me in this seat moved in a couple years ago. His house has turned over four times in the last years 8 because they lived next door to an apartment 9 house that is occupied totally by St. Joe's 10 students. The reality of it is that we as a community, being one of the better communities, probably the best community in the City of Philadelphia, is being drawn down because of the attitude of, not the university, but its students. Of landlords who own property who have no -- we have no recourse -- and who will not take the lead in trying to control their tenants of property that is occupied so totally by people who all have cars in a community that has driveways, but does not have enough room to safely park over a thousand cars now, that were not there when these properties were owned and occupied by single families. We have complained to the university. We have complained to the City, the Police 57 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Department, L & I, you name it, right down the pike over the years, all to fall on deaf ears. All to fall -- come up with the same thing, "It is not our problem. They don't live on university property. They're only kids." I've heard again of excuses. So therefore, the problem falls on the property owner, who has no financial, no 10 educational business or no gain in this. The property owner wake up to -- Mr. Greenberg raising two kids. His kids can't play on their front lawn because of the smell of the urine during the school year. Another neighbor found a box of condoms on his lawn. Aside from that conversation about where they're going to go, whether they're going to the dormitory or whether they're doing this. I've found panties. I've found a girl's -- doing their business in the middle of the street because the street happened --

On that, I have to say this. You should have made a video and we could have sold it on cable channels, you know, "Girls Gone Wild at St. Joe's". There's money in 58 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 that.

No, we couldn't sell it because the students have privacy rights. I have to thank St. Joe's University in the past year. They're hierarchy, the vice presidents and even the president has come out at night and witnessed some of the things that the community has been telling them over the years. And they've stepped up to the plate to do a lot about it. But it's not enough. They must have something that says that the university has to have this. A couple of years ago we had a student that passed away because of his illicit behavior. He drank himself to death literally, along with suspected drugs. He lived in an uncontrolled environment. Somebody must control these environments. These kids have shown us through time and time again that they don't -- I understand the other universities claim that they don't have the problem, yet they have bodies on their shoulders, too. People falling out of balconies and falling out of windows because they're too drunk to realize that they can't fly. The universities keep saying, Don't put this 59 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 burden on us. Well, we as the community have had this burden now for eight to ten years. We see no light unless we have this law. We've been beaten by this.

Thank you.

At this point I'd like to introduce Mr. Louis Rosen, also a neighbor of Overbrook Farms.

Very good.

Good morning, Councilman. My name is Louis Rosen. I'm just one member of the Overbrook Farms East Residents Association. I have lived at my present address for about 15 years on Overbrook Park, Overbrook Avenue. I am 16 a lifelong resident of the City of Philadelphia, 17 and I have seen an explosion of students 18 overwhelm the community from St. Joseph's University over the last eight to 10 years. The uncontrolled influx of students in past years was, in my opinion, totally without concern for the impact on the community. It has only been recently that the university, through the efforts of our organization and others, has started to take some responsibility, although 60 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 hesitantly. That is why I, as an individual in the Overbrook Farms East Residents Association, have supported legislation to hopefully cure the worst abuses of student conduct so that the town and gown community can coexist more harmoniously. I support most of the ordinance, amending Titles and 9, especially as the 9 ordinance relates thoughtfully to adoption of 10 policy by higher education entities and various due process protections relating to penalties for violation of their terms. I applaud the efforts of the ordinance's sponsors. However, Section 14 10-1081, Subsection 2 of the ordinance has now framed, delete as a, quote, responsibility party, end quote, the college or university in which a student is enrolled. Since no vicarious liability is now included for university or colleges, the teeth of the ordinance has been pulled or at least substantially dulled. No 21 vicarious liability would attach for any violation of any provision prohibiting excessive noise, illegal drinking and drug use, zoning noncompliance, property damage or other prohibited conduct in public places. 61 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 The language as to responsible parties should remain as is. It is respectfully submitted. They are the entities, university and colleges, best equipped to deal with the problem. They benefit most from the concentration of student populations and they are most amenable to enforcement of the terms of the ordinance. The universities, after all, receive the primary benefit of student attendance, tuition and fees. They should be responsible for the misdeeds of those students and landlords which burden law enforcement and L & I. The ordinance should be on all of those who benefit, not just students and parents. Of course, the community, it may be said, benefits to some extent from the presence of the university and students. However, the community suffers out of all proportion to any benefits because there are no effective controls on the abuses which have been identified, as you have heard today, and on other occasions. We say that universities should be made responsible parties under the ordinance 24 because they should be responsible for the misdeeds of those immature students whom they 62 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 knowingly permit to attend their institutions without adequate university control and guidance and without supervised housing, especially for freshman and sophomores. It was not until very recently, for instance, that St. Joseph's even sought to know the addresses of those students who lived off campus in the local community, or whether indeed they brought vehicles into the community, further exacerbating a difficult parking problem. Thus it was difficult, if not impossible, to enforce even university standards. With recent voluntary action, however, as well as the terms of newly adopted legislation, there may be hope to curb the worst abuse of the animal house atmosphere which exists during the academic year in many instances. This may be done without too great a financial burden on the universities themselves, even if responsible vicariously by legislation. First, universities vicarious liability need not be totally open-ended and totally under the legislation.

The ordinance, of course, does not impact on common-law and other tort causes of action or other avenues of redress 63 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 available to non-student populations. The impact of the legislation is specific and limited. The legislation may make clear that its intent is limited and that liability may not be imposed for offenses other than as specifically addressed in the ordinance that is before you today. Moreover, universities, to the extent that financial penalties may be imposed as a result of student misbehavior, may recoup their losses by surcharging students and/or parents by requiring reimbursement for the payment of fines by the university for continued attendance at the institution or for release of grades, transcripts or even for receipt of a diploma upon graduation. Control through the purse is often very effective Universities have great leverage here with student populations. The ordinance, it would seem, does not recognize this fact of life. Universities will find a way to recoup their losses, if given proper incentive through the ordinance's enforcement terms, whether it be voluntary enforcement by the universities, or through L and I or through the police. Moreover, as a practical matter, 64 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 enforcement is much more difficult against a multitude of individual students than against the primary institution involved, that is, universities and colleges. The institutions at least are stationary. We know where they are and they aren't going anywhere soon. Finally, we support the provisions with respect to leases, notification of authorities and landlord participation in the process. It is only through a multi-pronged effort that this complex issue may be resolved with as little dislocation and pain for all concerned. We look forward to working with the university community and all others interested in addressing the problem. Thank you for your attention.

Thank you. Any questions for these witnesses? Councilman? Councilman, the phone call -- St. Joe's Prep called. They said that they checked your records and they found out you're one credit short of graduating from high school. You need to go back there immediately. They have nothing to do with St. Joe's University, except for the Jesuit 65 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 connection.

Do you think there was no connection between the two?

No. Sorry. I'm sure it's a mistake.

I'll check on that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay. The Wynnefield Residents Association.

Good morning. My name is Mary Kim and I'm a local merchant and also a resident --

She can't hear you, dear.

I'm sorry. I'm a local resident --

Spell your name.

Hwan Jae Kim. Mary Kim, everybody calls me. And I have a business, local merchant on 63rd. And also I am a local resident because I have second floor living --

Wasn't your 66 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 husband here the last -- was there a man here before?

No, sir. Why I'm here, I've been living at that property for years. 6 And also I've seen singles getting bigger. And 7 as they're old, they're moving. I have been 8 student neighborhood for six years. Between my 9 next neighbor building and being six years been 10 like nothing but party house. Well, what I've 11 been through, I will suffer for myself because 12 I'm a local merchant. I don't really try to guess the student, they part of also my customer, but also I have to live nighttime also was that time. My son is a teenager. He has to study and also go to school early in the morning. But we try to be nice, not to say, could you just noise, just at nighttime could you less. Let us sleep. Well, between four years, he moved out. Second time, the two years I had a kid he had -- which is apartment we're they live together. They not just party on the weekend, they even go to weekday. Start at 10 o'clock on until five o'clock in the morning. Loud music. And the landlord doesn't want to get involved. 67 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 He's my problem. He try to keep it down for me. Just talk to him. Please make some regulation timing. Well, I talked to him several times. Even my son come over. Just to make noise down until we get sleep. Could you make us sleep, please. Well, doing and doing, over and over wasn't working. Finally, I was spoke to some -- he and stop by sometimes my store. We talk sometime and I describe what I've doing. He was, again, very upset. And he say, I been on patrol for the 63rd area, and right in front of your store. And I heard so loud music. I don't know how you manage to sleep. We even music and you didn't say nothing. What should I do? We can't do nothing. Which in the next scenario I had a problem for last year. 1:30 in the morning something shook my building. Is somebody dropping a bomb on my building? I was so shocked and awake. I looked at the time. It was 1:30. I was -- my neighborhood, they bring over speaker to my roof. They party on the drum. They louder the base and it shook it. Right in front of us waiting for the moment when I came out. And I 68 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 didn't even know he behind. I was at the door, and it was a cold morning. I had to get dressed, get out there, knock on the door, what's going on? He said, well, I don't what you're talking about. But behind security, look, I heard you guys go on her roof to bring over music to the party, you better knock down, and they started -- which is change the behavior. So I talk to some university and some other people. We make which is a meeting with him, which is a great idea. Two times me and my husband and some other people and from the university too. And then I had a meeting and we got a signed-up agreement. Don't make noise, which is a timing and the weekend and like that. Well, that last me about a month. Started again. And then one of the kids, they keep all night. I have problems this time, I don't say -- I don't have to go down to knock at the door. I call the police. I'll call the security, the housing director, having them hear the music make me awake from the noise. Finally, the landlord decided not to rent to that kid anymore. So they kicked him out this year. But I've been involved 69 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 with Councilman Nutter and with the other problem. The other getting better. But which a new semester is starting. I had one instance three weeks ago. Saturday night, usually we asleep. But that day we got in late shopping and sleep a little late. My husband go out -- when people go to sleep he goes out to have a smoke. And he saw two kids passing by my alleyway. That's, like, private and they had no business passing there. My husband say, just a minute, why they passing there? Usually on the weekend I had a student urinating problem. So my husband ran back there, third one came out off the belt try to get into the place.

My husband ran out and he saw only two spots being wet and the third gotten food there, nobody can see. He was running and my husband caught him and they denied. No, I didn't do it. No, I didn't go through there. No. Then my husband said, how come you opened your belt. What's was going on? And police was a station which is begin to talk to the driver. And the student make fun of my husband. They go over there to drink beer. We didn't do it. My husband so 70 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 upset. But that time before I go out I called security and I said, look, I had a problem. In my alleyway somebody urinated and I need the police. Okay. And then I went out to help my husband and go to the police to describe what's the problem and he come over to defend myself. The police. I describe where I'm from, who am I. Well, he heard it and he heard from the student. He just yelled at the student, get the hell out of here. They said, okay.

Excuse me for one second. I hate to interrupt you. I take it from your testimony that you have some concerns about student behavior over in the part where you are and your business?

Yes, I am.

Okay. We just wanted to make sure that was clear for the record. There may be other aspects to the story that you'd like to share with us and if you wouldn't mind telling me that at the conclusion of the hearing, I'd appreciate it. We have a number of more witnesses to testify. Okay?

I see. Yes. They just 71 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 went out to the track and the security show up. And they're responsible to make -- the kids really did it, but police wasn't trying to do anything. And next day I try to contact with us what's going on problem and meeting. Well, police doesn't see at the moment, so they can't be responsible. But the kid said after, yeah, we did it. But what I'm saying we did it for community involvement. Of course, I've seen different because I've been there 12 years. I've seen different. Thank God. But this bill maybe going to change it.

Great. Thank you.

Thank you.

My name is John Mobely. I am an Overbrook Avenue -- 6300 block of Overbrook resident. I also own properties in the Wynnefield area and I'm a graduate of St. Joe's University.

You're not going to tell us the urination story again, are you?

No, I'm not. 72 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Okay. Because just for the lack of time.

I understand. I'm going to keep it short.

We've got the gist of it. She said it eloquently.

I support the ordinance 9 because I think that, with the university's growth and their prosperity as a result of this growth, there hasn't been a remedy to the community. And I think that they have a responsibility, the university that is, to manage this growth and not to make their growth the problem of the community. And these issues that have come up, have come up in direct correlation to the growth of the student body. And so the laws that are presently in place, which there are none, need to be revised to manage that group. So I think the university should be accountable to that. And I think that the student behavior, the management of that, should extend beyond the walls of the university into the community. And I think that's the spirit of the law so I support it. 73 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 The piece about police enforcement -- and I think it's a three-prong issue, the second piece being the law enforcement aspect of it. I took your advice -- and I believe his name is Captain O'Brien of the 19th District. And I went last Tuesday and I spoke to them about an officer. I won't bring his badge number up, but I'm just going to give you an indication of why I went to him. There was a call to Overbrook Avenue for an incident. The police responded. The officer, after they broke the party up, was out joking with one of the students about how he should have arrested him last week on a different incident. To me, that lack of ownership and that lack of neutrality is part and parcel of the problem. The officers don't see it as a serious issue. So the response from the police isn't really what it should be. Thirdly, I've had students -- and I have students park, litter on my property. I have young children. I live across from -- Drexel Arms is right at the corner of Overbrook. And I try to work with them. So I'll write to a note to them, please don't park beyond the poles 74 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 of my driveway, so I can get out. And I've been nice about it. I'll have students throw those notes out on my lawn. So what am I to do? To go to the university? And so I'm coming back now and saying, hey, I think that this law is necessary because I think that the university has to raise its level of accountability. I think the community has to continue to do what the community is doing right now and to stand and do nothing -- it's only going to create further problems. It's only going to raise hostility and tensions.

Did the police captain respond?

What he suggested I do is not file a formal complaint about this officer, which I followed his advice. The only way I'll know he'll respond is the next time we call 911 and the cops come and to observe how they react to these kinds of things when they happen. That's the only way I can say that he responded. Otherwise, I'm going to continue to take officers' numbers --

You should. 75 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

-- and I'm going to actually file a formal complaint but, again, I'm going to try to work through the process you know without being hostile right from the door. That's all I wanted to say.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. Fuller and Steve Jones.

Give your name for the record.

Yes. My name is John Fuller and I'm a resident of East Falls. I live across the street from Philadelphia University. I want to make two remarks. I agree wholeheartedly with the opinions of the witness who just preceded me. And I wish to take exception to the remarks made by Councilwoman Blackwell. What she perceives as negative, I and other neighbors perceive as positive, because we are the ones who are being adversely impacted by the expansion of the students and particularly automobiles. And I would like to address myself to the issue that surrounds the neighbors in East Falls. And I vigorously support Councilman Nutter's bill. And if I had any criticism at 76 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 all, it's only that it's not strong enough, not that it is too strong. Philadelphia University has recently built a new classroom building on previously undeveloped property. Students are now driving their vehicles in droves. It's like a plague of locusts on what previously had been totally quiet residential streets in East Falls. Warden Drive on Vaux Street -- I live on Vaux Street. m. m. Monday through Friday there's a constant cavalcade of automobiles coming, going parking. I have found trash on my lawn, beer cans, water bottles. Litter in the streets. This situation simply did not exist a year ago. I and my neighbor -- my neighbors and I are very, very unhappy about this recent development that has adversely impacted the quality of life in the neighborhood. We, as residents, find it difficult to find places to park on the street. Visitors cannot find a place to park on the street and service vehicles that might come, such as, you know, cable companies, plumbers, whatnot, also have a problem finding a place to park. 77 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Secondly, students are parking bumper to bumper and practically cross over into your driveway or other places where you have your vehicle and also street intersections, causing an immense safety hazard. There have already been several accidents in East Falls involving university student cars involved in collisions, because it's reduced visibility seriously in your ability to operate a vehicle safely. What I particularly want to address in my testimony is not only the need for this legislation as proposed by Councilman Nutter, to make sure that it's properly enforced. In the case of Philadelphia University, the university does provide on-campus parking facility for student vehicles. They simply don't want to use it. It is easier to drive to where I live and park your car and walk up to their new classroom building. I have cases even that I have seen on my street where there are student vehicles, who are residents on campus, who will leave their dormitories to drive a quarter of a mile, let's say, to park on my street, so it would save them a few feet in driving to the classroom. This has 78 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 a serious impact on the quality of life in the East Falls neighborhood. And what I would wish to see is giving the universities empowerment to enforce, if you will, parking rules and regulations. Philadelphia University, I believe, prohibits students in writing to park on residential streets, but there's no enforcement. And since there is no enforcement, nobody obeys it. What I am suggesting is that -- the universities have an enormous power, and that is the power to withhold grades and the power to deny you graduation if you are in violation of university rules and regulations. Other colleges and universities do this elsewhere in the country. I've have had graduates of those schools tell me about that. So I believe that the universities must be given the responsibility and accountability to control residential addresses of students and the parking problem. There is one other issue that I want to bring up about the parking problem, which is coming up very shortly. It's now fall. The leaves are coming off the tree.

And it is a 79 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 policy in East Falls neighborhoods on all the streets that you put your leaves in the street. And beginning in November, the City comes around with enormous vacuum cleaning machines that suck up the leaves. This will be impossible now because there's nothing but block-to-block, bumper-to-bumper student parking and the City will be unable to pick up the leaves come November. And I believe this is situation that will make, not only myself, but other residents very, very unhappy. So I have given a copy of my testimony to Councilman Nutter. And I want to emphasize the fact that for a neighborhood like East Falls, which has been a very quiet residential area, is now being adversely impacted by the overwhelming number of student cars that simply were not there a year ago. We now have a problem and we want to solve the problems and get rid of those automobiles parking on residential streets. I believe the mechanism does exist whereby this can be enforced. And with a little assistance from City Council I think this can be accomplished. And I would be glad to answer any 80 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 questions that you might have.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Fuller. Great testimony. Thank you.

Good morning. My name is Steve Jones. I'm with the Wynnefield Residents Association. I'm a board member there and I'm also a presidential appointee there. Right now, with us we have some block captains, committee people, neighbors, and a former graduate student from LaSalle. We support the education housing district bill and we also support the amending of it. I also notice that we have people from Temple, Penn, St. Joe's University, which is great. I'm glad that they're here so that they can hear some of our problems. Some of these people don't understand. They don't live in Wynnefield. They don't understand the problems that we're having with the students. It's not against the universities at all. It's against the students who are unruly. And not all of the students are like that. I know that some students in the back, they're probably here because they're pretty decent students evidently. The ones that make all the problems are not here. 81 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 The ones that you've got to call the police on, they're not here. Because they're only here for X amount of years. I call it a vacation, and they think that they're vacationing. They're forgetting about the residents. I also understand that this bill 8 affects just the people in the 4th District. No 9 other community at all. I did hear a comment that Councilwoman Blackwell made, which I think she disrespected Wynnefield residents, the other residents here. She also disrespected committee people, block captains and neighbors. Evidently, Councilwoman Blackwell has never been in Wynnefield or any of the other districts. Councilwoman Blackwell just don't understand. It's not -- all the problems that she has in her neighborhood, I think she needs to get into her neighborhood and find out what her problems are and let the people in Wynnefield do what they have to do. Basically, Wynnefield is a good, clean area. We care. I've been living in Wynnefield for over 30 years. I've been supportive of anything positive that's happening. 82 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 I'm also supportive of University of St. Joe's. I have worked with the university on numerous occasions. I like the university. I have no 5 problem with the university. It's just some of the students. When things aren't right, then there are laws to be made. Any kind of law -- if something isn't right, the next thing you know, lawmakers, they come up with a law. And it's because of a problem that existed and it seems like it just won't go away. That's all that I have to say. And I hope that the Councilpeople hear us and help us out.

May I make just one quick statistical comment that I forgot to make before? I made a two-week survey, September 5th to the 20th, of the parking on Vaux Street on which I live by university students. I counted 205 separate individual vehicles that were parking on Vaux Street during this two-week period of time. I have all the registration plates, which I will hand over to Councilman Nutter and his staff. Of those 205 vehicles, only 81 or 40 percent had current Philadelphia 83 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 University parking decals on the vehicle, which is in direct violation of university rules and regulations and is something that needs to be gotten under control immediately. Thank You.

The survey that you just referenced, how many homes are on that block?

Well, I would say that there are about eight homes on each side of the block between Warden Drive and Colder (ph) Street.

How many blocks from the main campus are you?

Right across the street. I live directly across from Philadelphia University, yes.

Are there any parking permits that are permitted in your neighborhood?

No. We have not gone to permitted parking, and I hope we don't. Because that also has adverse effects on all of us. That's a last resort. Last resort. We don't want it, but it may be necessary to get rid of 84 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 the student cars.

If the university paid for it?

I don't know.

If the university were to pay for it --

Oh. If the university were to pay for it, fine. Maybe they can also pay part of my real estate taxes too.

That's tomorrow's hearing. 10 o'clock.

Councilman, go do what you've got to do.

I'll be about an hour or so. I'll be in the building. I'll actually be in my office so if I am at that time for a vote, just call my office.

I hope this will be before an hour, Councilman.

I'll be in my office.

Put Councilman Nutter on.

Thank you, Mr. 85 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there's two things I'd like to do now. One, I'd like to have St. Joe's University come up. They have some testimony. But prior to that, there have been ongoing discussions with the two universities in the 4th District, both St. Joe's University and Philadelphia University, as well as a variety of students, some of whom are here day. Some are not. The students who are here, I know also want to make some testimony as well. And I guess as late as yesterday, if not last night, I've continued to talk with people in the college and university community about some of the concerns that have been raised. I will seek to address them in a number of amendments to the Bill 17 020482. There are copies available and they'll be distributed as I'm talking about them. Let me go through them, Mr. Chairman. I will offer them as a complete package during the public meeting. But I wanted to go over some of the highlights. And with that in mind, the testimony should be geared towards -- these proposed amendments are in italics, bold and underlined. 86 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Starting on of the bill, the title of the chapter which is 9-2800, in conversation with people in the real estate community, there's been a concern expressed about the futile reference to landlords. " There was a concern expressed with regard to the certification that the universities have obtained a certain percentage of their students' information with regard to their addresses. There is additional language that reads, and they shall maintain the privacy and security of all such information in accordance with the general policies, procedures and operations of the college or university regarding student data and information. That was inserted as additional protection language. There is also a concern with regard to a reporting requirement, that somehow, after 87 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 some incident may have taken place, again, that there was a belief or an impression or a reading that this particular bill was proposing to tell the colleges and universities what kind of penalties they might impose on their students. One, for the record, clearly we cannot do that. Secondly, the colleges and universities have their own disciplinary codes and policies. And so all of that language that makes reference to proposed suggestions of the type of discipline that might be imposed, I'll be proposing to delete that, and replace that with just a requirement that there be notification, that we get a copy of the college or university's policy regarding notification to the college and university student disciplinary body for violations of the provisions referenced in Section 10-1802 of the code. Additional language, a college or university shall not disclose any information to any person regarding actions taken by or final decisions made by a college or university student disciplinary body except as provided by law. There's a clarification with regard 88 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 to which students under university's policy may have vehicles on campus, and that was further expanded on page five. To read, a statement reflecting the college or university's policy regarding which categories of students (freshmen, sophomores, juniors or seniors) are permitted to own, operate or control vehicles on campus. There's additional protection language on five with regard to the provision that talks about, within 10 days of receipt of a third notice of violation by a student of the provisions of Section 10-1802, the college or university shall provide the Department with -- and the new language would be, notice as to whether the college or university student disciplinary body has been notified of such third notice of violation.

Again, the language is, a college or university shall not disclose any information to any person regarding actions taken by or final decisions made by a college or university disciplinary body except as provided by law. There's been a significant amount of concern, which I have taken very seriously, on 89 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 the issue of the sticker. The original bill 3 provided that the students would give their vehicle information to the university. The university would issue a sticker and the students would place that on the inside driver's side rear window. That has been a significant concern raised by the university, raised by the students. I've had an opportunity on two separate occasions to talk to groups of students about this, as well as a very large meeting on a university campus about 10 days or so ago on this particular issue. One, let me say that I have no interest whatsoever in this concept of profiling. Secondly, I'm also not interested in -- even if it's just a concern, raising the concern that somehow students or any other individual for that matter would somehow be targeted for potential criminal activity, theft of either their vehicle or their materials inside the vehicles. And I guess lastly, thinking even about my personal situation, I have great disdain for the yellow sticker that all Philadelphia residents have on their own vehicles, which I have also refused actually to put on my own car. I do carry it and 90 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 my car is registered and they can see it when I pull it out of my wallet. With that in mind and having given great thought to that, that provision will now be changed or is proposed to be changed, but there will still be a sticker issued by the university. The student will affix it to his or her college/university-issued identification card. It will not go on the vehicle. The rest of the language is fairly repetitive. It has more to do with what information can or cannot be disclosed or shared, again because of various provisions of either city, state or federal law. With specific provisions again stating that, no information is disclosed with regard to student disciplinary actions or what might be going on in that process. The provision with regard to college and universities' responsibility in the area of towing vehicles, that provision is to be changed. 1 of the code, provided, however, that any person who incurs a cost for the removal or towing of any vehicle pursuant to this subsection for which a college or university has issued a sticker shall recover such cost from the student or a person who owns, operates or controls such vehicle and shall notify the college and university of such cost incurred related to the removal or towing of a vehicle for which the college and university has issued a sticker. " With regard to the providing of information by landlords, that provision is also proposed to be changed such that -- the property owner or manager shall determine by September 1st of each year and maintain a current list of the names of students and their addresses and which college or university they attend, but now will not be directly required to automatically provide that information, but shall provide that 92 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 information upon written request of a college or university who is seeking verification of student residents. All the other changes of that particular provision primarily relate to the deleting of landlord and replacement by the phrase, property owner or manager. There is one additional change in the Section 9-2807, Cooperation with Enforcement Officials. Again, to provide as clear language and policy as possible with regard to information, that section will read, upon request by an appropriate official -- and then it goes on -- provided, however, that no college or university shall be required to take any action.

The additional language is, or provide any information that would violate the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act or any other provision of city, state or federal law. Those are the proposed changes to Bill 020482. " Those are the only changes to the now property owner or manager, Bill 4 020484. We can certainly have further discussion on the record about any of these proposed changes, but I wanted them on the record so that the discussion would be pertinent to what will potentially be the bill in front of us. Can we have St. Joe's University up, please?

State your name for the record.

Yes. My name is Richard Passon. I'm the Vice President for Academic Affairs at St. Joseph's University. I and my colleague, Dr. Linda Lelii, Vice President for Student Life and Academic Development, who is here, and Rob Skomorucha, our Community Relations/Government Relations person, are here to represent St. Joseph's to articulate our university's position on this matter and to hear the views of our neighbors and our friends and, we understand, perhaps our students as they explain them today. 94 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 St. Joseph's position simply is that we do not oppose Bill No. 020482 -- I think I got those numbers correct -- which amends City Council Bill 010695 adopted in June, and especially these most recent amendments presented by Councilman Nutter today, because they seem to us to be clearly preferable to the existing legislation. I will explain this position shortly. But first, however, I would, with your permission, like to address two issues which have arisen out of recent media coverage of the original bill and the various reactions which have reported. Two implications have arisen from the media coverage, implications which I wish to correct for the record. One implication is that prior to the introduction of the original bill 19 concerning an Educational Housing District, St. Joseph's University was uninterested in the concerns of its neighbors and inactive in addressing their concerns. Our view is that nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is that St. Joseph's has worked very hard to be a good neighbor over many years. And that in 95 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 recent years, even before the introduction of the Educational Housing District legislation, it has increased its efforts in this area and, in fact, its investment. We have -- for example, our community relations staff will maintain constant communications with our neighbors. We have informed our students of the need to behave appropriately in the neighborhood through a variety of means; letters from the President, presentations at freshman orientations and others, articles in the student newspapers and in private conversations. We have responded, as far as I know, to every neighbor telephone call or letter. We've hired, after consultation with the Councilman and with community groups, off-duty Philadelphia Police Officers at our cost to patrol the surrounding area and respond to complaints. We have introduced the new policy applicable to the entering freshman class, which requires freshman and sophomore students to live on campus. And we have worked continually to obtain and build additional student housing and parking. We're proud of our efforts in this area 96 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 and we believe that our record shows a university engaged in active in many positive ways. We will continue to exert these efforts, whatever the outcome of today's discussions, because we think they are important. A second implication is that St. Joseph's has not, until the recent legislation, been interested in securing off-campus addresses of our students. And this suggestion also, I need to say for the record, is simply not true. We have for many years sought to obtain correct addresses for our students wherever they live. And in recent years we've extended these efforts to obtain and verify addresses for a variety of purposes which are important to the university and our students. We will continue in this task as well, independent of legislative mandates. Thank you very much for the opportunity to set the record straight on both of these issues. To return now to our position on the proposed amendments. St. Joseph's, as we understand them, thinks that these amendments are improvements to the present legislation. We believe that they are superior to the existing 97 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 bill.

And further, we wish to point out that we have been working for a long time with Councilman Nutter to suggest possibly changes in the existing bill and to react to various drafts that he has proposed. We believe that the current set of amendments is responsive to our suggestions and our expressions of concern. They demonstrate to us that the Councilman has been trying to listen to us and to our students, as he has been trying to listen, as he should, to his other constituents in our neighborhood. We are committed to such a cooperative process on this and other matters as a continuing part of our program of educating students to be responsible citizens. Now, we acknowledge that such processes are not simple and that they are open to a variety of interpretations by different people. We acknowledge that our students and their parents have been concerned about the present bill and we have encouraged open dialogue on this matter, as Councilman Nutter has told you. We acknowledge that our colleagues in higher education institutions in Philadelphia and 98 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania have their own concerns and are developing their own positions and we respect these concerns and will continue to try to be sensitive to them. One final point. We at St. Joseph's believe that the town and gown issues which we face with our neighbors are not one dimensional and that they will require multiple solutions. One very important solution, for example, to which we are committed, is the provision of additional campus housing for our students. We are now, in fact, as you've been told, in the process of planning for the addition of about 400 student beds. A start, not the total solution, to the issue in a residence complex at the corner of 54th and City Avenue, a project which has undergone, as you've heard, many renovations after consultation with our neighbors and with the assistance of Councilman Nutter. This body will -- that is, the Council, will in the near future be asked to support some zoning and land use changes to make that project possible. So that those additional student residents spaces will be available by the fall of 2004 and at the 99 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 appropriate time we will renew our request for support. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on behalf of St. Joseph's. This concludes my prepared remarks and I would be happy to respond to questions.

Thank you.

Thank you. Any questions? All the rest of the colleges and universities can call up together and you guys work it out. We'll do Penn, Temple, LaSalle. Is Drexel here? Anyone from Drexel here?

As incredible as it may sound, I'm trying to make sure I've got the proposed amendments correctly. The primary impact of the actual bill that was introduced I went, I guess, kind of right past that particular issue. And that was, that when the original bill 20 was passed, there was an ongoing concern about the one specific issue of vicarious liability with regard to colleges and universities, whether in the 4th District or not. And that discussion was ongoing. During the time of passage and 100 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 subsequent and during the course of the summer, there were various meetings and phone conversations about that particular issue between myself and the colleges and universities and Mayor Street, as well. And I had made a commitment that we would address that particular issue upon our return. And you may note that this particular Bill, 020482, was introduced on our first day of Council on September 12th. And in the beginning of the bill, under Definitions 10-1801, Item 2, responsible party, the last half of that sentence has been deleted, which reads, "and the college or university in which a student is enrolled." That automatically removes all of the colleges and universities from vicarious responsibility, because you only have vicarious responsibility related to a responsible party. Colleges and university have been taken out of that particular section. And there are a number of reasons. One, there are, in fact, significant legal implications to that issue which, I will state for the record, go way beyond the original intent of the legislation. 101 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Two, it is at times, as a local legislator, sometimes impossible to know all of the other things that may be going on in the states, if not across the country. As I've said to my colleagues from time to time, I am just a guy from West Philadelphia and probably don't get out as much as I should. Recognizing both the significant legal implications beyond the intention of the bill, as well as even implementation complications, I think at this point in time having that particular provision, which did raise a whole host of eyebrows and caused a number of people to come to the table to have a discussion, it has in effect served its particular purpose. Nor do I wish to plunge the legislation into an area or into a realm in which it was not intended. The ongoing working relationship that has, to some extent, always been in place, but at times I think has become stagnant is no longer. The issues that we're trying to address, I believe, are not just Wynnefield, Overbrook, East Falls, Manayunk issues, but are actually city-wide issues having to do with, how do you, 102 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 on the one hand, promote the tremendous resource that a college or university could bring to your community, as well, in an effort to attract and retain students, we don't at the same time somehow push out long-time residents who are trying to figure out how to live in this new environment. And so for those reasons this particular provision is being removed because of the implications and also because I made a commitment that I would do that. And that's why I put the bill forward -- please. I'm sorry.

Thank you, Councilman. My name is Joe Mahoney, and I'm Senior Vice President of The Greater Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce. And we're joined today by a number of the colleges and universities that are a part of a group that we have at the Chamber called, The College and University Presidents Council. I had prepared testimony but, you know, frankly, a lot of the things that you addressed in your amendments today changed the tenure of the testimony. First, let me say that we congratulate you. We've engaged in a dialogue on 103 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 this issue for quite a while on the vicarious liability issue, and we do congratulate you for the action that you've taken on that issue to remove the universities, particularly the ones not in the 4th Councilmatic District, as responsible parties. The reason that we came together to testify today, even though many of the schools are not in the 4th District, are that we had a concern about the precedent that might be set by certain areas of the legislation. Items like the cars -- the decals and many of the things that you addressed in the amendments that you announced today. We do not want to see an undue burden, an administrative burden, put on the colleges and universities. And we thank you for your willingness to continue to engage in dialogue and to address some of the issues which may have had unintended consequences from what you were proposing. We will look at the amendments that you prepared today and come back to you, for the record, of our feelings on them. What we heard here today sounded like they went in -- you know, many cases address the concerns that our members have. I think that the 104 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 schools would probably like to express their own feelings on this. But we value the working relationship we have with you and with other members of the Council. And we applaud your willingness to continue to engage in a dialogue on this issue and we will look for an opportunity to have -- to increase the dialogue so that at a future date, perhaps in October, we can get you together with the Presidents Council meeting so that you can talk and express your feelings directly with them. We're sympathetic of the issues that are facing some of the neighborhoods and we thank you for your time.

Thank you both for your comments. And I will certainly be more than pleased to have an opportunity to sit down with the College and University Presidents Council. I would like to think that -- and that kind of responsibility does go both ways. But honestly, it wasn't until I introduced the legislation that I learned that such an entity existed. But I'm always pleased to sit down and have a conversation with people about anything that people are serious about talking about. 105 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 And I'm the first to acknowledge that, one, you don't always get it right the first time. But I also understand that sometimes when you are talking, people are not necessarily hearing you. And sometimes you do have to try get a person's attention. And not just for attention's sake. I mean, there are some very serious issues here. And I am more than pleased and prepared to engage in that kind of discussion and that kind of dialogue, not just about the 4th District, but because I represent the 4th District and I would not think on an issue like this to even propose legislation that might affect any other area. I don't know the other areas at that level of detail. I do at least get around. I may not get out of Philadelphia very much, but I do at least know this City. But these situations are often unique to particular neighborhoods. And we also recognize that there are always a lot of other things going on at the same time. Some you can see. Some you can't see. And we certainly have that situation going on right now. But thank you. I look forward to the -- scheduling that meeting. 106 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Good afternoon. My name is Carol Scheman and I am the University of Pennsylvania's Vice President for Government, Community and Public Affairs, and I'm pleased to be here today. I very much appreciate, deeply appreciate, Councilman Nutter's work on town gown issues. We are most especially appreciative that in response to our concerns, he has proposed the elimination of the concept of vicarious liability for universities. We are acutely aware of how hard Councilman Nutter has worked to find some reasonable balance and to address real problems. We're grateful of these changes. And in the spirit of this open and honest dialogue, I'd like to express some concerns that we have with even the new and sometimes, we believe, ambiguous amendments to the educational housing district legislation, and especially the precedent that such legislation could establish to the detriment of colleges and universities throughout the region and, quite frankly, beyond. It is not clear to us still which provisions apply only to the 4th Councilmatic District. We also continue to be very concerned 107 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 that other city districts will in the future decide to adopt these requirements. We believe that the bill creates unwise precedents of the roles of colleges and universities in relation to their students. We are concerned that these amendments taken together will create significant administrative burdens that are not necessarily balanced by benefits, and at the same time divert scarce resources from programs that we believe are, in fact, very effective. Penn has worked very closely with our Councilwoman, the City's police department, L & I, the Parking Authority and other city departments, as well as our communities, to improve coordination of services, public safety and quality of life. And Councilwoman Blackwell continues to work to encourage cooperation among academic institutions, businesses and residents to foster community dialogue and problem solving. We at Penn recognize that we are not simply educating the next generation of scientists, engineers, teachers, physicians and scholars, but also citizens. A Penn education involves scholarship research and service. And 108 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 our students choose Penn, and we know this for a fact because we've done surveys, not simply because we're one of the nation's finest research universities, but also because we are in Philadelphia and they want to go to school here. We take seriously our task of civic education. Thousands of our students participate not only in public service, but also in hundreds of academically-based community service learning programs. And I am enormously proud to tell you that Penn Center for Community Partnerships was just named the best program in the nation in the US News and World Report recent issue. We also understand that every year one-quarter of our undergraduates are new to our community. And we work closely with them, our elected community leaders, to introduce them to our communities and the expectations and responsibilities of living in our communities. Educating them on the basic issues of when to put the garbage out and understanding that most adults are not nocturnal. m. We have also joined with many other 109 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 West Philadelphia and University City institutions to create a voluntary Special Services District. The University City District has worked closely with all members of our community on improving the quality of our lives. We are concerned that the proposed legislation would redirect resources away from these productive efforts towards record keeping and administration. We have not yet had the opportunity to sit down with other colleges and universities to analyze this legislation in depth. And I have to thank you, Councilman Nutter, for the amendments you announced today.

I know that a number of them go directly to issues that I'm addressing here and I look forward to talking more about that. The first opportunity of the Presidents' meeting will be October 4th at the Chamber for the purposes of this hearing. However, we've identified a number of specific concerns. It does concern us that the concept of vicarious liability seems to live on in the bill, although it's not clear to me with the changes that you've made on the issue of 110 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 towing, that that will, in fact, get rid of that as well.

It removes it. MS: SCHEMAN: Thank you. We are also concerned that the obligation to repair security plans for off campus transfers a fundamental municipal responsibility to colleges and universities. It's important to note that while Penn has a sworn and accredited police force that works closely with the City Police Department, we cannot assume the primary legal responsibility for off-campus areas. These and other provisions collectively beg the question of City enforcement of existing laws and regulations and appear to pass the burden on to other parties. The amendments -- you also addressed the issue of public disclosure, and we appreciate that because as you, in fact, did say, we have internal procedures that go beyond even the specific license, and we do appreciate your addressing that. We are worried that we can end up, as you noted earlier, in a slippery slope with having the state and federal government following City Council in these issues. We are 111 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 concerned, nevertheless, that the amendments seem to have -- and the bill -- has implied obligations for universities to regulate the behavior of adults, who may be only incidentally students. We think that this is not a good concept and we worry about it. The landlord provisions are also things that we're concerned about, that we need to spend more time talking. And I believe you have, in fact, made amendments to answer a lot of our questions. We are proud of the fact that Penn, along with many other colleges and universities in our region, bring enormous benefits, economic, cultural and social to our communities and our City. We are also mindful and concerned about the stresses that undergraduate living off campus bring to neighborhoods. Indeed, this is the main source of town gown problems across the nation. Penn and, we believe, most colleges and universities would like to be able to offer four-year, on-campus housing for all undergraduates. We urge this committee and City Council to consider creative financing that would 112 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 make such plans feasible. Philadelphia is our nation's premiere college and university town. We believe it is fitting for our City to take the lead in working with colleges and universities to build effective models for new dormitory development and other forms of undergraduate housing, as well as programs that encourage students to contribute to the health and vitality of the regional economy during and after their education. I know that members of City Council and the public know that other colleges and universities are watching this legislation in Philadelphia closely. I am confident, as evidenced by the dialogue we've had to date, and the dialogue we continue to have, and our close working relationship with Councilman Nutter and other members of this committee, that we can and will work together to develop a progressive model to deal with these issues that is based on cooperation and good will. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there other colleges or universities that wish to testify? 113 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Mr. Bishop.

Good morning, Chairman Mariano and Councilmembers Rizzo, Clarke, Nutter and Reynolds-Brown. It's a pleasure for me to be here today. My name is Tabb Bishop and I'm the Deputy Chief of Staff at Temple University. And I thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to offer testimony regarding Bill No. 10 020482. At the outset, it should be noted that the sponsor of Bill No. 020482, Councilman Nutter, has met with the representatives of Temple University and has been sensitive to the many concerns regarding the establishment of Educational Housing Districts. Councilman Nutter's previous effort in this regard, Bill No. 18 010695, was amended before passage during the Spring 2002 session to address many of our issues. For example, Bill No. 010695 was amended before the passage to limit many of its provisions to only those colleges and universities that have a substantial portion of their facilities located in an Educational Housing District, which, under the bill, is 114 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 located in the 4th Councilmatic District. Temple University does not have a substantial portion of its facilities in that district. This new bill, Bill No. 020282, goes even further in addressing our concerns. It removes colleges and universities from the definition of responsible party, thereby eliminating the most troublesome aspect of the bill: The creation of vicarious liability for third parties. Although it is to others the debate the legality of imposing vicarious liability, I note the City's own Solicitor wrote on June 12, 2002, that the enforcement of Bill 15 0101695-A will present numerous practical and legal difficulties which should be addressed before implementation can proceed. I do not believe the vicarious liability provisions of Bill No. 010695-A can be enforced unless and until numerous policies, procedures and systems are developed, and unless administrative questions are answered. Temple joins those who applaud the removal of vicarious liability from Bill No. 0202482. Aside from the deletion of vicarious 115 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 liability, however, we are troubled by the new language in Bill No. 020482 that requires each student living or intending to live in an Educational Housing District to notify his or her landlord that he or she is a student. No other class of citizens is required to make such a declaration before attempting to secure housing. It is not difficult to imagine that such a requirement, if legal, could lead to situations where housing opportunities were precluded based on a person's status as a student. We respectfully ask the Committee to consider the wisdom of singling out this or any other class of people. Finally, although the bill does address many of Temple's serious concerns, we continue to be troubled about the impact that the bill will have on the colleges and universities throughout the City and region and, in particular, on the City's broader effort to attract and retain college students. The presidents of the local colleges and universities, the Greater Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce, The Pennsylvania Economy League, the 116 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 City through its Commerce Department, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, several prominent legislative leaders and prominent others have devoted substantial resources to make Philadelphia more attractive to students and their families as they make their college decisions, and college graduates as they make their career choices. The goal of these efforts is unassailable; to make Philadelphia and the region an attractive place to attend college or university and an attractive place to stay after graduation. Only by such measures will the City and region be able to reverse population and job losses, stop the "Brain Drain," and compete in an increasingly competitive world. We are concerned that the bill will have a deleterious impact on those important efforts.

No college or university can make the claim that its students are always perfect neighbors. We can, however, do all within our power to forge good working relationships with our neighbors who, unlike our students, do not leave every four or so years. Like the institutions themselves, the neighbors are here 117 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 to stay. It is incumbent upon each institution to do all that it can to ensure that its neighbors' quality of life is not diminished by untoward or illegal behavior by students. At Temple we devote considerable time, effort and resources to ensure that the safety of our campus is intact and to foster positive relations with our neighbors, to ensure that our faculty, staff and students are respectful of our neighbors, and to promptly address any grievances that may arise. In closing, we believe that Bill No. 14 020482 is more palatable than its predecessor. We are concerned, however, that the new bill may still result in unintended consequences, negative publicity for our great City and its colleges and universities, greater administrative burdens, and even possible legal challenges. We know that this is not the bill's intent, nor is it the intent of this Council. Temple University stands ready to continue to work with City Government to fashion an appropriate solution to these issues. Again, I thank you for this opportunity. 118 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Thank you, Mr. Bishop.

Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of City Council. My name is Mary Kate McGinty and I am Assistant Vice President for Executive Affairs at University of Sciences in Philadelphia. I would like to first thank Councilman Nutter for addressing one of the major concerns of the educational community with the revision of Ordinance No. 010695-A to exclude the component of vicarious liability, and also acknowledge that we do support this change. Let me also say that USP fully appreciates Councilman Nutter's concern for its constituents. It is challenging, at best, for any college or university in an urban environment to determine the appropriate level of responsibility towards, and oversight of, their students, in addition to being sensitive, to have their students impact the local residents. At University of the Sciences, as I'm certain do all colleges and universities in Philadelphia, we work very hard to build and 119 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 maintain good relationships with our students, community groups, local residents, and City Council. If there are issues relating to student behavior off campus, we handle each case on an individual basis and then determine the most appropriate course of action for that particular situation. Our administration is always available to community members, and we try to work together to resolve any issues. But we also tread very carefully. What should be the distinction between a 21-year-old Philadelphia resident who, for example, is in violation of the nuisance ordinance, and a 21-year-old student? Should the enforcement policies differ? What is the legal role of a college or university in this circumstance? These are not simple issues and there are no easy answers. USP is proud to be part of the education Mecca that is Philadelphia. And we look forward to continuing to tribute to the growth and economic health of this great City. Students are the reason we exist. It is our relationship with them while they are attending our colleges and universities that will inspire 120 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 to them to stay after graduation and become contributors themselves. In closing, I'd like to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the City Council for granting me the opportunity to share USP's views and concerns with regard to the ordinances being discussed today. I'd also like to express, once again, USP's sincere appreciation for the intent of these ordinances and the Councilman's concern for his constituents in the 4th District. It is our hope that City Council will fully consider the impact of the ordinances, not only on those residing in the Educational Housing District, but on the entire City as well. Thank you.

Thank you, ma'am. Anyone else?

Mr. Chairman, I have a question for Mr. Bishop.

Mr. Bishop.

I just have a question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bishop, with respect to this particular bill, I had had some conversation with the bill sponsor and the president of Temple 121 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 University as it related to the implementation and its effects on Temple University. He had expressed his concerns. And I believe that the Councilman, as witnessed by your testimony, has addressed the major components, the vicarious liability issue. I just wanted some clarity. Is it your understanding that no student of Temple University, if they happen to live in the 4th Councilmatic District, will in any way require that Temple University be liable or responsible for their activities; is that your understanding of this bill?

That is my understanding.

Okay. That's the one issue that I was concerned about representing Temple University. Now, I may come back on another day to do a bill just for Temple University, but at this time I'm comfortable with the language that was provided by the sponsor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you.

My name is Mary Young and I'm the Vice President of Public Relation at the 122 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Association of Independent Colleges and Universities of Pennsylvania. Our association represents 81 independent colleges and universities throughout the Commonwealth. It's the second largest collection of private universities in the nation. As someone who represents private higher education before the General Assembly, I'm well aware of the continuous tension in town gown relationships. We do see that, as well, in Harrisburg. Neighbors rightfully become annoyed when students living in college neighborhoods cause disturbances. And the presidents of colleges and university work hard to minimize the source of friction. However, we must keep in mind the communities also benefit from the presence of higher education institutions. These colleges and universities provide economic stimulus, cultural, educational and athletic events, often free to the public, green space and perhaps most importantly, increase the value of local properties. I am here today to tell you that the Educational Housing District's legislation and its amendments is being closely 123 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 watched by the higher education community around the state and, I would venture to guess, around the nation due to its potential impact on our colleges and universities. I want to thank the author of the original legislation, Councilman Michael Nutter, for his amendment to remove the vicarious liability provision, and I applaud this intention. Certainly, the vicarious liability provisions are the most damaging and would set the worst precedent. However, our Association is concerned about the implications of other proposed amendments as well. I would like to briefly explain our concerns. First, current state law states that college students are adults and that colleges and universities must treat them as adults. This supports the educational mission of our colleges and universities in that our institutions strive to help these emerging adults, if you will, become responsible for their behavior. The Educational Housing District's bill and even the proposed amendments, I would submit, asks us to operate under a different assumption. The bill 124 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 and the amendment's premise is that students are not adults, and that the college should be responsible for their actions. Even the amendment requires the college to provide a plan of action to prevent students living anywhere in the Educational Housing District from violating certain City ordinances. Indeed, this bill may have unintended consequences of seeing worse behavior if you tell these students that they are not responsible for their actions. I urge the members of City Council to carefully consider the message this legislation is sending around the nation. Philadelphia currently is one of the top college towns in America. Pennsylvania attracts more out-of-state college students than all but one other state in the country. And Philadelphia's private colleges and universities are the largest component of this accomplishment. You want to continue to send a message to perspective students and parents that Philadelphia welcomes them. You want to treat these students as young adults. You want to continue to see students come into the Philadelphia area and not to see a 125 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 decline in the economic impact of your strong college and university sector. It appears that you may, at precisely this time when Philadelphia is trying to attract and retain more young people, you may be discouraging them. I encourage you to continue to work to resolve these problems, and I admire your amendments. You've done a lot towards that purpose. For the benefit of these students and for the communities, I would ask you to continue this effort.

I cannot speak to the impact of this legislation, but hope that statutory measures will not be necessary in order to work out these problems. Thank you for the opportunity to testify.

A real quick question on that adult statement. The college students under are adults? 21

Well, there is some case law.

Who says that they're adults?

The case is actually 126 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Bradshaw vs. Rawlings. It's a case in 1979. It was just distinguished in a case in 1993.

The State Court or Supreme Court?

Federal Circuit Court.

So, therefore, when my 17-year-old becomes in March and he 9 applies to one of them schools, I'm not 10 responsible because he can get his own loans? 11 And then when the loans for college aid -- they 12 come back and say, well, you still live with your 13 father. Well, since he's 18 and he's an adult, 14 then he can get more college aid, right? 15 Therefore I'm not drained. 16

I see your point. 17

Nothing against 18 you, but it's all right -- it burdens us at this level. But they're adults when? They can't drink until they're 21.

But they can do a lot of other things before they're 21 in this state. And I agree with you that they can't do the drinking. But I see your point. You've made your point and I understand what you're saying. 127 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

It's not on you. I mean, the Federal Government and the courts got to get it together and realize what message they're telling us. We can cheat and throw them out when they're and then they can go live at 7 their uncle's or something and get aid. You try 8 to do everything right, $80,000 becomes $20,000 9 take-home at the end of year. 10

It's a thorny problem and 11 we're dealing with it at the state level as well. 12 I mean, you know, there are major questions, 13 there are major mandates that are being placed on 14 colleges and universities at the state level and, 15 you know, it does raise costs for universities 16 and colleges. It does give a bad picture in 17 terms of how colleges and universities and 18 communities are working together. And to those who are present here, they can tell you how difficult the job of recruitment is.

This isn't on you and this is not germane in this conversation. It's only because you're probably the only person that can pass this along the line. Shortly, the only people who are going to be able to afford go 128 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 to college will be the very rich or the very poor that gets aid if you can't play basketball or football. So that eliminates the whole working middle class. I didn't go to college until I paid went myself at night. I said I had one at Drexel and one's a senior in high school. It doesn't look very rosy for the senior in high school.

And that is something that we're trying to address with the General Assembly and we're also trying to address that through the Higher Education Assistance Agency aid. But you're right. I would say that that is what is happening.

This is the last thing I'm going to say and I'm going let Councilman dot it. We need to do what Israel does, and when you get out of high school you go in the military for 3 years and then if you do good, you stay if they want to you stay. And then if you want to go to college they pay for you to go to college in something you have an aptibility for; women, years; men, years. Everybody. If you can't be an infantry captain, 129 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 you can wash the trucks. If you can't do that, you ay be a jet mechanic. That's what we need. Ed's smiling, but I'm frustrated and I'm looking at paying for one and another one coming and it's, like, this is a joke. And we're sitting here fighting about cost. This isn't going to raise costs. This is going to get that poor guy that took off today that came here and sat here and it's only for him. I'm sorry, Michael. It's just not a good time to talk about colleges for me.

Ms. Young, let me mention a couple other things. One, I deeply appreciate your testimony and I am sensitive, very sensitive to your concerns. What really brings us here today, and unfortunately, it took nine pages in this bill and probably another seven or eight in the other one. What we're fundamentally trying to deliver is a three-pronged message. One, we do in fact want young people to come here to Philadelphia, get a good education, have a good time, enjoy yourselves. We think we have a special City here. Never lived anywhere else, no disrespect 130 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 to other towns around the country. I've been to a few places, they all seem very nice. I'm a Philadelphian. I'm going to be a Philadelphian. But as I mentioned earlier, in our ongoing efforts to attract and retain young people, students, to come to Philadelphia and get an education and live here, we cannot leave the residents unprotected. They are our current tax base. They are our working people. They provide a certain element to the neighborhood that is also very important. Now, I've tried to be very clear, not only with the universities in the district, but others. More often times than not universities and colleges don't move. They expand, they grow, but they don't just pick up their buildings and leave. And the residents aren't moving either, many of them. Although they have options. And my constituents, quite honestly, many of them are in a position they have options. They live literally a block, a half a block, two blocks away from another political jurisdiction called Montgomery County, Lower Merion, Bala Cynwyd. And they can very easily move. It cannot be in the City's interest 131 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 in an effort to attract one group of constituents who we want to have here to then lose another group of constituents at the same time. And so the simpler message as opposed to the nine pages is, respect the residents and if you want to be treated as an adult, act like an adult. The colleges and universities have a much more unique relationship with the students than neighbors ever will. They pay money and you have a contractual relationship with them because when you pay you, you give them grades and ultimately you give them a diploma. It is the primary reason that probably 99 percent of the young people are in the neighborhood. It's not just because it's a good neighborhood. They've come to get something. You have a certain amount of authority and control over their actions because you can deny something to them that either they, their parents, the financial aid people, or some bank has decided to make an investment in. We need you to step up to the plate. We've also asked our property owner and manager community to step up because they 132 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 have a contractual relationship with these young people. They pay rent, you provide me with shelter, hopefully air-conditioning and heat in a decent place to live. What we've had over time is a backing away by these various parties that have some level of control or some ability to impose restrictions on a group of young people, many of whom are away from home for the first time, many of whom are in a totally different environment. That's fine. I understand that. If you want to be treated as an adult, start acting as an adult. And all we're left to do -- I mean, this is not one of the prouder moments of my time. I'm in my 11th year. I know good legislation. I know required legislation. I know defensive legislation. This is the last straw. Build more housing -- you've heard about a proposed development project -- change behavior. We have some students here who are going, I think, be at the university for a little while. Now, they can talk to an old guy like me and they'll say, "Well, old man go somewhere. " Peer to peer, though, they have 5 acknowledged that there are some problems 6 themselves.

And I've put the challenge to the 7 student constituency to say, Look, if you're not 8 doing some of the things that you're doing, then 9 us old adults aren't doing some of the things 10 that we're doing. So there's got to be a coming 11 together and a meeting the minds that says, you 12 have the right to be here, to get a good education, enjoy yourselves, be a viable part of this community. And one of the things, unfortunately, that has not come out in this hearing, but there have been other discussions about it, is the lack of recognition of what it really means from an economic development standpoint, from an employment standpoint, from a property value standpoint, and even more importantly, from a student standpoint of what these young people bring to a community. They do make it rather lively; some days a little too lively, but it is lively. They provide community service. They 134 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 work with young people. They do a whole host of things that most of us don't know anything about because we don't promote enough of it. And so the concern, and I understand it, that somehow this may be perceived as negative. If we decide to perceive it as negative, then it will be perceived as negative. If we decide to perceive it as positive, that we're working with our young people, that we're working with the colleges and universities, that they're implementing systems that are going to help these young people understand that all of their education is not going to be learned in a classroom, but some of it's going to be learned in your living environment. It's going to be learned by living down the street from Ms. Jones or Mr. Smith or someone else. That's also a part of your education. And we're trying to do our share at the community level. But we also have to have certain levels of protection. This is a very fluid environment. Last I checked, the only thing that is set in stone is the 10 Commandments. Everything else is negotiable. And we've been in a negotiation over time. This 135 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 didn't start this way. It may not end this way. But somewhere in between as a legislator, I'm compelled to take action for what I can do in response to my constituents and to protect and respect the rights of these young people. There has to be a balance. And that line has shifted from time to time.

Sir, I respectfully say I don't question your motives at all. I just would ask that in this discussion you consider how others are viewing this piece of legislation. They are not aware perhaps of the kinds of concerns you have, but they have concerns of their own and they are trying to deal with the same kinds of problems in other places across the state. So I don't disrespect your motives, and I appreciate what you're trying to accomplish. I thank you for letting me have my opportunity to discuss it. Thanks.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Chairman Mariano, Councilwoman Brown, Councilman Nutter, other members of the committee. My name is Edward Tureanski, I'm the Assistant Vice 136 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 President of Government and Community Relations at LaSalle University.

I have been mistaken on many occasions for Councilman Mariano. I believe he may have engaged at a point in time in some identity theft which I'll be taking to the District Attorney about. (Laughter.)

No, I waved to him in the back there. Ladies and gentlemen, I won't extend these proceedings any longer, in that many of the comments that I had prepared have been dealt with in part by subsequent amendments that Councilman Nutter has introduced. And policymaking is above my pay grade, so I will not invent new testimony at this time. The only thing I would like to do is to stress that in terms of any legislative approach that would be taken to deal with the substantive problems, which incidentally are of prime concern, I think, to all of us in higher education. I think we, along with neighbors and elected officials such as yourself, Councilman, 137 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 do share concerns about quality of life for all the residents of our City. And our president, Brother Michael McGinnis have made very clear that if the communities surrounding our colleges and universities are not ones in which people can live, work, and study to the kind of satisfaction that all of us would want for our closest loved-ones, then we've failed, then we have a problem that we have to deal with. And in that respect, the concerns we had in any legislative approach had to do with precedents that are set with replicability of legislation from one district or another, from one municipality to another. Administrative burdens that could detract from practical efforts that are meant to build better relations and to provide better education for students and unintended consequences. And in concluding, the only thing I would like to do is to echo what Joe Mahoney of the Chamber said at the outset of this segment of the testimony in that we understand and appreciate the concerns that drove us to this point in time and that we hold out great hope 138 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 that in your direct dealings with the subset of the Chamber of the college and university presidents that we'll be able to address mutual concerns and come to a point where we have best practices in place so that residents can see the benefits of having an institution of higher learning close to their homes so that students can be brought to a greater point of maternity so that they appreciate the need to respect and take care of what is their home, although for a temporary period of time. I thank you very much for your attention.

Thank you. Thank you very much. We've at times almost kind of talked about some of them in the third person, but we do actually have some live, active, registered students here with us who have been following this process for sometime. I've had an opportunity to meet with a few of them and they have some testimony that they'd like to share. So, Kyle, why don't you come up and Matt, introduce yourselves. And after you, we will 139 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 hear from the Department of License and Inspections and the Commerce Department together.

My name is Kyle Bruno. I'm a sophomore at St. Joseph's University. This is my friend Matt Drake. He is also a college sophomore at St. Joseph's University. First off, I would just like to thank the representatives of the other schools for actually supporting us and making us feel like the students' interests aren't being marginalized.

Pull that microphone a little closer.

Oh, I'm sorry. I would thank you guys for making our interests paramount and not marginilizing our interests. I'd also like to thank Councilman Nutter who met with us within two working days when we met and expressed on record some discontent with my own university because the president, we made contact with him two weeks ago has yet to return to my phone call. But moving on. This bill, Councilman Nutter has been working on and we understand this bill. We 140 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 understand the community. And we understand the concerns. But the unintended consequences are still consequences nevertheless. What we're trying to look for is kind of a dialectic synthesis, a kind of unity where we can work together. I want to be able -- and I would like to say this and I've said this to my own neighbors, that in the community usually if you have a problem with your neighbor, you go over to your neighbor's house if they're making too much noise and tell them. We don't see that happening much with students. Instead, there's a knee jerk reaction to immediately call the cops. If a neighbor came to my door, I would tell you straight up that I would turn down my music and I would try to regulate because nobody's goal is to get in trouble. Also, with the different parking issues that concern many people, parking is a concern. We live in these places just as you. And I know personally and I know about seven friends, we all got tickets one day because we parked on the wrong side of the street in the wrong direction. And since then, we have, every 141 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 single one of us has made it a point to park in the right direction. So the idea that students are just animal house kids is blasphemy. And that's why I want to continue to work together because this is the only way, I view that we're going to get anything accomplished is working together and not just blindly accepting whatever Councilman Nutter says. As our school said that they supported in the original bill which has seen a lot of opposition. And the reason why we're both sitting here is to try to get the amendments. And Councilman Nutter has been fantastic at that. We view that we have these rights. And we don't want our rights to be infringed upon, manipulated or coerced by force in any way. And I view that for any part of the community. I don't want to feel that students are alienated simply because we are students. And I don't want to have a negative connotation simply because we are students. And I do realize the community's problems, but the only way we're going to do this is working together. The community, they are just as you 142 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 are here, so we're going to have work together because the community loves the disposable income that college students pour into the community pour in the local businesses and pour into like kids that rent from different people. I found it personally ironic that the man earlier was up here talking about how he so offended by the way students act, yet he was making a capitalistic profit off us in that respect. Working together is the only way, and I'm trying to encourage that we all work together. And, you know, kids aren't going to stop partying. And this isn't a huge -- my school in particular isn't a huge party school, but we do live in a very residential neighborhood and we understand that. And concerns are going to have to be taken. And working together is, I view, the best way. I thank and applaud the other colleges for standing up for us and giving me personally, because I was kind of feeling dejected, a glimmer of hope that my own university did not give.

Gentlemen, I 143 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 must commend you for your willingness to take a leadership role and represent the student body that you represent. And it's encouraging to know that you're paying attention and you're thinking about what we're doing on this side of the table and how it will impact the constituency that you are a part of. So having, again, worked in higher education and worked with college students around issues somewhat like this -- and for the record, Penn State is the number-one party school. I'm just compelled to share that with you and to ask you to consider being on a neighbor in a community who has to respectfully endure and respect your rights while they try to enjoy a quality of life right there in Wynnefield. So you're to be commended for your willingness to work with us and help us sort of get it right on this end of the table, period.

Thank you for just giving us a chance. Thank you for working just so dogmatically to try to solve this issue. I really appreciate it. It restored my faith in the representative democracy.

Just don't 144 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 start a web page. We got one already. Count how many words I say. Michael wins all the time because it takes a lot words to say a couple things.

This is true.

If I'm within 50 words of him, it's great. Do you want to say something?

Basically, Kyle summed up all the relevant viewpoints that we have as a student body. We just understand that there has a homeostasis between the community and the student body. We need to work together, of course. And we fully concede that there are transgressions committed against the community that show us in poor light, but I don't think blanket problem. I think on the most part most students are respectful of the concerns of the community. And I think with the dialog being open as it is, I think we can proceed and really get to a juncture where it will be fair and equitable for all relevant parties.

Just go register all them people to vote and then go visit your 145 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 democratic ward leader with a whole little wagon full on registrations, and he'll talk to you a little more.

Thank you.

Thank you for this opportunity.

Mr. Chairman, I would also put on the record that there have been ongoing discussions, although they were not able to be here today because of their own schedules, St. Joe's University has a University Student Senate. And I've also had an opportunity to meet with the president, Jordan Hitchens (ph); the vice president Ann Kennedy; and a number of other students, Regan, Allison, Amanda, Gail, and Mark. We've had ongoing discussions about these particular issues as well.

Good afternoon, Chairman Mariano and members of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. My name is Dominic Verdi. I'm here today to provide testimony on Bill No. 23 020482 and Bill No. 020484 that propose to amend the Philadelphia Code by adding requirements applicable to property owners who rent to 146 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 students in Educational Housing Districts and to colleges and universities attended by such students. The Department of Licenses and Inspections does not support this Bill 020482 and 020484 for the following reasons: The bills place administrative burden on the Department. The Department currently regulates the inspection of residential rental property and has sufficient enforcement power under the Philadelphia Code to provide for the safety and welfare of citizens. The bill does not mandate under penalty, consequence or incentive that a college or university comply with the recording requirements contained within the bill, thus the Department may not be in a position to provide sufficient reports to the Mayor and Council come November 1st of each year. Also, the reporting requirements placed on colleges and universities will not impact student behaviors achieve a decrease in public nuisances or affect landlord compliance with the zoning code. 147 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 The bill places a heavy administrative burden on the department by requiring the Department to provide notification of a violation not only to the student but also to the college or university and landlord. Notification to three separate parties increases the paperwork of the Department and will increase the Department's postage cost. Extra time will need to be spent on checking a separate database for the landlord's home mailing address. While a great administrative burden on the Department, notifying colleges, universities and landlords of student violations will not induce students to change their habits. Bill No. 020482 requires that L & I provide the Mayor and Council a listing of the numbers and types of traffic code violations served to students in the Educational Housing District in a 12-month period segregated by the school attended by each student. In order to abide by the provisions, L & I would have to ask the police Department and Philadelphia Parking Authority respectively to run a report on the license number of every 148 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 single student in the designated Educational Housing District over a 12-month period. The time and administrative task will be overwhelming to the Police Department and parking Authority and Police Department will be forced to direct efforts from police to performing this administrative function. Bill No. 020482 also requires L & I to provide a listing of all buildings for which application has been made in a 12-month period in order to obtain or renew a multi-family dwelling license. Such listing shall identify the building inspected by the Department and the buildings for which certificates have been provided. For those buildings that have been inspected but for which certification has not been issued, the Department must provide a description of the violations of building and occupancy code requirements to prevent certification and description of the actions that must be taken by the owner of the structure to obtain certification. L & I does not have the capability of running a report for multi-family dwelling 149 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 activity in a certain year. L & I would need a complete listing of every address in the Educational Housing District. The department would have to do a search by property address to determine if a multi-family license was issued or renewed and to provide a description of the building construction and occupancy code required for each address. This type of search would take months and L & I would have to reassign staff from other activities to this project alone.

In addition, one would have to go through the expansive report and pick out student addresses registered by colleges or universities, a task in itself, very time consuming. And all of this reporting will not affect the behaviors of students or bring property owners into compliance with the law. Students and property owners will be compelled to be lawful by L & I enforcement of the existing code by issuance of violations, deterrence of possible court prosecution. L & I is confident the Philadelphia Code enables the Department to provide for the safety and welfare of its citizens. This bill 150 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 does not carry a consequence, incentive, or mandate to colleges and universities fail to adhere to reporting requirements. Thus, L & I will be dependent on outside sources of information without having authority to coerce colleges or universities to provide such information. The Department will not be able to meet November 1st deadlines if information is not received. The language in the bill is not forceful enough in directing colleges and universities or landlords to take a punitive action against students if students receive three violations in one year. All the reporting requirements add an immeasurable amount of time, work, cost and burden to the department. The Philadelphia Code also provides the Department with the ability to address nuisance properties and ensure that multi-family dwellings are in compliance with zoning regulations. The Department of Inspections will make itself available to this committee and all Councilmembers to discuss effective ways 151 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 facilitating harmony in residential communities with student housing. This concludes my testimony. And I'm happy to answer any questions.

Councilman Nutter.

Just a couple. Mr. Verdi, does the Department anticipate any increase disease in the City also as a result of this legislation?

Not that I'm aware, Councilman.

Now, how many notices did the Department send out for violations last year?

If I'm not mistaken, just IN our housing unit alone, there were close to a hundred thousand. I can get you that number.

AND what was your postage budget last year?

I'm not quite sure.

And you presently inspect buildings; is that correct? Is that a part of the function of L & I these days? 152 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482

Yes.

You inspect buildings?

Yes.

Now, do you have computers in the Department or are you still using by cards?

We have a computer system.

Have you upgraded from cobalt or -- I mean, do you have any of the higher level --

You don't have the computers we have that only work every five days?

We have the newer ones that only work every three days. The computer system we're currently using now has given quite a bit of problems with information.

But you're getting a new one, aren't you?

We are currently working on a system now that by Friday there should be 20 153 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 inspectors on-line and within two months our whole entire inspectional staff should have a full new computer system.

Okay.

One of the things --

That was some of the more interesting testimony that I've heard.

Just to let everyone here understand, we have been working closely with the Police Department and the Councilman's office, and the different universities in relationships to different public nuisance issues. We have did some stepping up of enforcement in certain areas and we are now looking into with our nuisance task force some issues relating to buildings that don't quite fall under the current nuisance laws. We just recently had a meeting with my nuisance task force that they have some wording that we'll be giving over to Council and looking into more or less an umbrella-type public nuisance ordinance which will help alleviate, not only the university issues, with also just general public nuisance issues.

Mr. Verdi, I 154 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 think the last thing I'll say is I'm looking at my good friend over to the side who is former ranking officer in the marines, and I think that it is quite clear that you have earned your stripes today. You have charged up a hill for God only knows what reason and attempted to capture it. And I'm sure when you get back, you'll find out what the mission was. But thank you for coming in today. We appreciate it.

Thank you, Councilman.

Go ahead, Duane.

Good afternoon, Chairman Mariano and Members of City Council. My name is Duane Bumb. I'm the Deputy Commerce Director for the City. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you about Bills 020482 and 020485. Before I read through my brief remarks, I wanted to personally thank Councilman Nutter for the amendments he's already introduced, specifically on --

Look, he can't take the adulations. Somebody here has to dislike him, not you personally, Duane. But somebody's got to get up and call him something. 155 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 Because I'm doing it if somebody don't.

Well, somewhere in my testimony there is some criticism. I do appreciate the amendment on vicarious liability as well as, I think, some of the other amendments proposed today, in fact, do improve this legislation and we are very anxious to work with you. I was before you this past spring when you had the public hearing on 010695 which created the Educational Housing Districts and I raised concern at that time that the bill was in conflict with the City retention efforts. I believe the same is true of the two bills before you today. One of the major factors driving the City's economy is the ability of highly skilled work force. Recognizing that meeting of the needs of this emerging knowledge industry will be critical to the City's ongoing economic viability, the Department of Commerce has been active in the area of student retention. We have refined this broader initiative into three distinct areas of activity: Number 1, attracting 156 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 students to attend the nearly 80 institutions of higher learning in this region. Number 2, engaging these students attending school here in all aspects of City life. And Number 3 retaining a high percentage of the graduating students in our local work force. This past Saturday, we successfully kicked off third annual Philadelphia College Festival on the Parkway. Approximately 20,000 college students attended that event. This year for the first time we've expanded the format of the Philadelphia College Festival to include a full week of activities targeting college students. From concerts at the Kimmel Center to baseball games at the Vet, we want to introduce area college students to all the amenities and attractions that the City has to offer. This region has nearly a quarter of a million college students. Over a third of those students attend colleges in the City. These students represent one of our greatest resources as we try to meet the challenges of the emerging new economy. In the face of these challenges, we cannot afford to alienate those very students who 157 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 hold the key to our economic future. While I fully recognize that the intent of the two bills before you today is to ensure the safety of the students and other City residents living in neighborhoods impacted by nearby colleges, I believe these bills also send out an unintended message that college student pose threat to our neighborhoods and should be closely monitored. By adding a level bureaucracy to local government when dealing with the issues of college students, whether that be registering every student-own car operated within the Educational Housing District or requiring landlords to hire additional staff to monitor attend college. The bills do not recognize that students are individuals who must be held accountable for their actions regardless of their students status. In that regard we have more than enough laws, if properly enforced, to protect all of our residents in the quiet enjoyment of the respective neighborhoods. Because of the potential problems associated with Bills 020482 and 020484, I believe it would not be in the City's best 158 9/24/02 - LICENCES - BILL 020482 interest to allow these bills to become law. I would be pleased to respond to any questions you might have. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bumb. Seeing no questions for these two witnesses, we're going to close the public hearing and go right into the meeting. - - - 159 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC MEETING COMMITTEE ON LICENCES AND INSPECTIONS - - - September 24, 2002 - - - Public Meeting conducted by the Committee on Licences and Inspections, held in Room 696, City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the above date, to consider action on the following: BILLS 020411, 020482, 020484 - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, Chair COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - 160 9/24/02 - LICENCES - PUBLIC MEETING

The Chair recognizes Councilman Clark for a motion on Bill 4 020411.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to make a motion on the proposed amendments to Bill No. 020411 as read into the record in the public hearing and as distributed to members of the committee. (Duly seconded.)

A motion's been made and duly seconded. All those in favor say aye. (Aye.)

Opposed? (No response.)

Seeing none, the amendments pass.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make a motion that Bill No. 020411, as amended, be reported out of committee with favorable recommendation, and request for a suspension of the rules as to allow first reading at next Session of Council. (Duly seconded.) 161 9/24/02 - LICENCES - PUBLIC MEETING

There's been a second. Bill 020411, as amended, there's a motion on the floor as amended. All those in favor? (Aye.)

Opposed? (No response.)

Seeing none, the bill passes as amended out of this committee. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter for motion on Bill 020482.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the proposed amendments as read into the record and circulated during the public hearing be adopted. (Duly seconded.)

The motion has been made and seconded. All those in favor the amendments? (Aye.)

Opposed? (No response.)

Seeing none, the amendments pass. 162 9/24/02 - LICENCES - PUBLIC MEETING Councilman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that Bill 020482, as amended be reported out of the committee with a favorable recommendation, further recommendation that the Rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next Session. (Duly seconded.)

The motion has been mad and seconded. Bill 020482, as amended, will be voted out of committee with a suspension of the rules. All those in favor? (Aye.)

Opposed? (No response.)

Seeing none, the bill passes. Councilman Nutter again.

Mr. Chairman, I move that the proposed amendments during the public hearing to Bill 020484 be adopted. (Duly seconded.)

A motion has 163 9/24/02 - LICENCES - PUBLIC MEETING been made and seconded for these amendments. All those in favor? (Aye.)

Opposed? (No response.)

Seeing none, Bill 020484 has been amended. Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that Bill 020484, as amended, be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation, and a further recommendation that the Rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session. (Duly seconded.)

There has been a motion and second Bill 020484 has been amended and the bill go out of committee, as amended, with a suspension of the Rules. All those in favor? (Aye.)

Opposed? (No response.) 164 9/24/02 - LICENCES - PUBLIC MEETING

None. Councilman Clarke, back to 020411, do you want to suspend the rules? Did you say suspend the rules?

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to make sure that's on the record.

Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry, I should have taken care of this earlier. There was a letter submitted by Philadelphia University which I'd like to have incorporated into the record as if it had been read into the record.

That will be done. That letter will be put into the record. This concludes the public meeting of licenses and inspections. Thank you, everyone, for coming. (Council adjourned at 1:45 p.m.) - - - 165 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of September 24, 2002, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. RE: COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS ___________________________ Lisa C. Bradley, RPR and Notary Public