could you please state your name and spell for the sonographer uh
okay real close um my name is alex bugman could you spell it please for a l e x last name bugman
P-U-G-M-A-N.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth,
nothing but the truth?
I don't.
Please proceed, counsel.
Alex, you heard everything I had to state today about your zoning
matter.
Is it true and correct?
And do you adopt it as your own testimony?
Thank you.
I would ask that Nick Giganti virtually raise his hand.
Alan, would he service his own location?
What do you mean, service?
What do you mean service?
In other words, he had other beer distributors.
In other words, he had other beer distributors.
Would his beer distributor be the delivery to that location?
Would his beer distributor be the delivery?
They buy from wholesalers.
We purchase our beers from approved wholesalers.
Okay. All right. All right. Thank you.
Hi. Could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer?
Sure. My name is Nicholas Giganti, N-I-C-H-O-L-A-S, last name Giganti, G-I-G-A-N-T-I.
You swear we're referring to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Please proceed, counsel.
Yes. Mr. Giganti, what real estate brokerage do you work at?
I work out of Keller Williams and Power.
Okay. And is Keller Williams in power, the listing agent for the property at 5052-56 City Avenue?
All right. And how long have they been the listing agent for this property?
Since October 22nd of 2024.
for. Okay. And during that time, how many offers other than Mr. Hugman's offer has your office
received? So we received two formal offers. One was with a developer who wanted to basically
redevelop the property. That contract was terminated. He did not move forward. And then
the other one was with Alex Pugman. Okay. And then do you have any knowledge of how long this
property has been vacant or last occupied? I believe it's over, as far as I know, over six
years. Okay. And do you have any knowledge of, of any other offers that were submitted
with this property prior to your, um, engagement? No, I do not know of any. Okay. Um,
has it been an easy listing of this property given its, its, its location in Philadelphia?
you um no it hasn't for the main reason of the condition of the property um it's a very onerous
task for someone to take this property over in the condition that it's in um unless there's the
right use uh the first person that wanted to do the redevelopment after he ran his numbers and
you know put pencil to paper he realized that the the building wasn't uh feasible for him
to uh to do that redevelopment um we've had several people call about it we've probably had
roughly you know 50 leads that came in pondering about the location but again once they really
start to dig into um what you know the the building um uh condition no one has really
moved forward other than you know that first person which of course didn't go through and
and obviously now we're with uh alex all right all right thank you okay i do i do have some
questions for Alex. I stated that you have multiple locations in the Philadelphia region.
Can you just explain those locations and typically what would be your hours of operation?
We have one location in Hatfield, Pennsylvania. One is Hudborough and we are opening a brand new
that we're planning to start operating probably by June in Chestnut Hill, Philadelphia. So
So, Hetfield location is our first location.
It's on a shopping center.
Hadbar, we own property there.
And hours of operation, 9 to 9, Monday through Saturday, and 10 to 6 on Sundays.
And would that be similar to what this location would have, the hours of operation?
And then in terms of security, do you have someone on staff during hours of operation?
In those locations, we don't have a need for security.
There is no need for that.
Okay, but I guess there was a discussion with the community of having security there. Would you have any objection to that?
Okay, but I guess there was a discussion with the community of having security there.
Would you have any objection?
Thank you.
No, I think Cedar Avenue, it's common practice living in the area. It's common practice. Most of the businesses on City Line Avenue corridor, they have security, and there is a reason for that.
Okay, and then, and there's pre-existing parking on this lot, right?
Yes. And then how many employees would you expect to have at any one time
during the hours of operation and in total? Probably a security person and two employees.
So at any given time, it should be three employees. Okay. I have no further questions.
Thank you. Questions from the board. Yes, I guess my question is, given that like in Philadelphia, beer distributes are a known nuisance property to most community groups, and this had already had two previous approvals as a restaurant, had you at all considered something that might be more in line with what the community was interested in seeing?
so i will answer that the last application was for a restaurant with a liquor license
and and the community uh strong-armed in a way the operator out of actually opening up
this is the 2024 the 2019 29 i think it's there's two there's two different listed
permit approvals that were approved i my understanding is that what because i and
And I've seen a community meeting video on this.
I believe that there was something that I think they never got past the PLCB.
And I think that was the issue.
So they couldn't get the approval.
So with the PLCB, so the operator eventually gave up.
And then for the location that you've mentioned at Chestnut Hill, have you already made it past that stage for that one?
Yeah, everything is approved to be about to start operating.
It was a by-ride option given the zoning classification of the property.
But again, it has a similar business model, right?
Right.
Yeah, that's where our experience and expertise coming from in operating beer sales,
not being restaurant owners or any other business experiences.
That's what we know.
Gotcha.
Where does the numbers pencil out from being 250 feet away from the wine experience?
50 feet, I think it was.
I'm not a liquor control board attorney.
So based on your question,
it sounds like there may be a requirement to be so.
So again,
my client is represented by John McCreish who,
who is going through that process concurrently.
I have not heard of any issues in terms of that.
So I'm assuming that we are 250 feet.
at Hatfield location we are next door to Giant and Giant has a liquor license and we have
so being across the street definitely shouldn't be a problem with PLC. One is a distributor's
license the other is a liquor license y'all going at the both distributors it's a safe requirement
250 feet and it was yeah again I'm I defer to you know my client again but that's the whole reason
right if if these are issues that you would discuss at a plbc hearing the zone and i and i
and what happened with the previous operator proposed operator they got tied up at plcb but
this is a responsible use of the property from a zoning perspective whether my client ultimately
gets approval in front of the plcb that's another matter he does have a great track record at
multiple locations so it's definitely more than 250 feet so i do have a question so
she's the ward leader of the 52nd ward am i right she's writing it as the ward leader not as a
councilwoman i believe give me one second i believe she wrote the letter as in her position
as council member give me one second yeah i don't have the benefit of the letter so i can't i did
just send it to you okay is she she wrote in as as a council member thank you so my my question
is a little different i guess i'm i'm i'm not sure how you um i i i understand beer distributors
where you're selling a beer buddy case and what have you.
I'm not sure if I understand your model.
So you're selling what has been described here
What has been described here as like craft beers, what does that mean and why is that so different and what kind of business model is there? I mean, how many of these bottles can you sell at a time and how does that, how does this whole thing work?
as like craft beers.
What is that?
I think it's a very good question. PLCB classification of licenses goes back to, to my knowledge, over 100 years ago. So back in the years, beer distributors were primarily selling kegs and cases.
now the model in 2025 is changing and changing rapidly and it's changing more in suburbs and now
it's moving into philadelphia the model is like younger generation and even middle age and
everybody else looking to buy six-pack singles to have a variety and also the trend is changing
people want to buy craft beers actually philadelphia is known for craft beer philadelphia
is a home to about 35 breweries inside philadelphia and about up to 100 philadelphia and
suburbs so what we are looking to do like uh make the store more like a destination store for local
beers of course we'll sell uh big names like budweiser engling and so on but also uh to have
people choice to buy a lot of craft beer seltzers ciders uh probably my rough estimation 40 percent
of buyers are ladies it has to be well lit store good security big uh wide aisle so ladies will
come and comfortable shopping in this store so it's it's it's a different model and also comparing
to Giant or Acme, they have a small selection. They carry big names like Guinness, again, Budweiser.
We're going to bring all, in addition to big names, small names, local names. There are breweries
owned by great entrepreneurs in this area. There are minority-owned breweries. We want to have
full presentation uh there are a lot of tourists in philadelphia even in suburbs we have a lot of
people come and say show me local beers i'm visiting my family here in hadfield in harborough
show us local and i think being in philadelphia and city avenue will give us a great opportunity
to present the whole array of philadelphia beers yeah and i want to mention it sounds
like when you're saying i'm going to buy one bottle of beer what i what i do personally is
like you get when you go to a giant like for instance you mix and match you they literally
if there's these like why don't you explain what that what i mean by that right so uh again market
is changing like back when we just started 13 years ago plcb regulation people had to buy if
somebody wants to buy beer, they have to buy a case. Now it's changed. Everybody can buy anything
from a single can or bottle to a case. And when people buy single bottles, they can mix and match
six different bottles of one can. And also like some people say, if I'll buy a six pack or case,
I may drink it all in a couple days. I would rather buy a couple today, a couple tomorrow.
So it's not a bad thing to sell singles. Singles are good for some people. So it's good to give people different choices in price range, in craft versus domestic, foreign. It's a different market.
It's ciders, seltzers.
People want to pick and choose what they want.
And again, gas stations, vavas, or supermarkets don't give this opportunity.
They have relatively small sections versus us.
We'll have big choice to choose from.
And also, us buying in bulk, we can compete in prices.
We can offer people better prices than supermarkets.
Can you also explain the training you do to make sure that you're not serving to underage kids and things like that?
Absolutely. So it's highly regulated industry. PLCB requires and it's a new regulation that every employee is a ramp certified responsible alcohol management program.
So every employee must pass the program for us to be in compliance. So it's it's a two or three hour program online and everybody has to pass a test.
and i'm taking this test every two years and i have to pay attention to otherwise i'll fail the
test so it's not that easy everybody has to pass everybody goes through orientation through us
sign papers and we explain uh we are the business responsible for alcohol sale but every employer
We are the business responsible for alcohol sale, but every employee is personally liable not to sell to underage.
Everybody is responsible to sell alcohol to a visibly intoxicated person and so on.
We take it very seriously.
PLCV take it very seriously.
We are also overseen by state police.
approximately every six months state police sends undercover people either like younger than 21 and
if we don't check the id properly if that god forbid transaction happens there is a fine for
that if three transactions like that happens license revoke so it's very regulated and
state take it seriously and we as operators of your business take it very seriously otherwise
we'll lose the business yeah i think i think we can acknowledge that i think the issue in most
places in philadelphia where these are considered nuisance businesses has to do with trash has to
do with like people coming in buying single consumption things and it causing debris in
like a very short distance around that business and in people lingering outside of them and so
I think like to I think understand how you want to mitigate those very specific issues that
neighbors might be really you know concerned about is like the major thing I think the second
piece I've often heard from communities is deliveries right like the volume and the number
and the types of deliveries that have to service these businesses
and how do you set that apart?
I think a question that I didn't get to was with your addition,
you've taken away a lot of the space that it looks like
the previous commercial space is used for deliveries.
It looks like it was perfectly formatted to be the space
that a truck could pull in and then comfortably pull out.
So with the addition, how do you plan to manage deliveries
with that very narrow drive aisle for your eight parking spaces?
uh so uh we get literally three deliveries a week from three main wholesalers uh deliveries will
happen off rush hours probably late mornings uh they bring pallets of beers and those pallets will
be still uh even with the addition there will be approximately 20 feet in the back