Madam Chair, I move that Bill No. 990021, as amended, be reported 2906 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting out, and that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit consideration at our next stated meeting. (Duly seconded.)
It has been properly moved and seconded that Bill No. 990021 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation, as amended, and that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All in favor will signify by saying aye. Those opposed? The ayes have it, the motion is carried. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark.
No, no, Councilwoman, sorry. The amendment has to be adopted first.
Okay, I move that the amendment be adopted to Bill No. 990022. 2907 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting (Duly seconded.)
It's been properly moved and seconded that the amendment to Bill No. 990022, as read by Mr. Kaplan, be adopted. All in favor will signify by saying aye. Those opposed? The ayes have it, the motion is carried. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark.
Madam Chair, I move that the amendment to Bill No. 990023 be adopted. (Duly seconded.)
No, Councilwoman, we're still on Bill No. 990022; we have to report the bill out with a favorable recommendation as amended.
Oh, I really need to pay attention, don't I? Okay, then this time, I'll -- (Laughter.) 2908 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting
Madam Chair, I move that Bill No. 990022, as amended, be reported out with a favorable recommendation and that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first consideration at our next stated meeting.
It's been properly moved and seconded that Bill No. 990022 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation, as amended, and that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All in favor will signify by saying aye. Those opposed? The ayes have it, the motion is carried. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark regarding Bill No. 990023.
There are no 2909 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting amendments to it.
There are no 4 amendments to it, wouldn't you know it.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I see. I'm sorry, go ahead.
24 -- oh, 23, I'm sorry. Now I'm getting confused. (Laughter.)
-- be reported out with a favorable recommendation, and that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading.
It's been properly moved and second that Bill No. 990023 be reported -- I think Councilman Nutter has his light on too? Councilman Nutter?
You did get it right, Councilwoman Clark. Madam Chair, my only question on Bill 2910 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting No. 990023 is the matter of the $15 million for the School District and whether or not those dollars are presently accounted for in the FY 2000 budget; or is the plan to come back and do a transfer ordinance subsequently?
It is our plan to do a transfer ordinance. The $15 million is not included in this bill for the School District. Maybe Mr. Kaplan would like to add to that.
No, I believe the Council President has accurately characterized the situation.
Councilman Cohen, do you still want to be recognized?
Yes. As a matter of procedure, prior to the time that the presidency was assumed by President Street, the procedure before operating -- before enacting a budget, the Operating Budget, there was always a Democratic caucus and a Republican caucus, and then if 2911 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting necessary, a caucus of all the parties so that there could be informal discussion going over the budget. I think that such a procedure would be very helpful so that all of us are very clear and if we have any questions, instead of engaging in debates at the time of the adoption of the budget, we could discuss these things as party caucuses do. I don't -- except for our procedure the last number of years, I know of no other legislative body that doesn't have a caucus of the parties to see whether or not the budget ought to be altered, you know, whether any recommendations come out of the those caucuses. So I would like to urge that before we act on 990023, that we have such party caucuses. We have time, there is absolutely no requirement for the budget to be adopted prior to the end of May, and we're only at the beginning period of March. Sometimes when there are proposals, the Administration agrees or agrees to talk about it, and then we arrive at an agreement. Sometimes the Administration opposes it. 2912 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting And it seems to me that Council, as an independent legislative body, ought to take its position first, seek agreement with the Mayor, but be prepared to act if there is no agreement on any matters we deem important. Therefore, I would like to suggest that we not act on 990023 today until after the caucuses. There's absolutely no time urgency with respect to the adoption of that bill.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, may I propose a question to Councilman Cohen, or will Councilman Cohen accept a question?
Councilman, I fully understand what you just laid out. Could you share with us, I guess, from a timing standpoint what your sense of the proposal is to have a caucus of Democrats and a caucus of Republicans. 2913 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting And then, I guess, the caucuses would come back in the same forum and setting, back in the Committee of the Whole. I mean, are this still outstanding questions about the budget which you would rather pose in a caucus forum? And, I mean, is this a matter of days, weeks, months?
No, just a matter of maybe week or two, but to give everybody a chance to go through everything carefully in their mind and decide whether they want to suggest -- for example, take the amount of money for the School District, should it be million? 15 As far as I know, this Council has never actually made such a decision. We were told at one point several years ago that it had been decided by the Mayor and the then-Council President that there would be an additional 15 million.
But, Councilman, the $15 million is not in this budget bill; it would be in a transfer bill.
Yeah, well, I'm just referring to that, that it would give us -- 2914 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting
And I would just like to add that I have personally spoken to several of the Councilmembers, and I thought I would speak to each one individually. Because of the time constraints, you made a suggestion that you wanted to meet, and I told you that immediately after today's hearing, I would meet with you and any other Councilmember that felt that they wanted to discuss the budget.
I don't know why we can't report this out, and if we have to hold it on a second reading, we will do so.
Well, it just, as a matter of fact, when it comes up on second reading, there is always the additional argument that, Well, we can't pass the bill if we amend it and, therefore --
Why can't we pass the bill and amend it? 2915 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting
Well, you can't -- you mean, pass it out of committee. I'm just saying that it just seems to me best to have these caucuses so we can informally discuss a budget, and I would like to see that. It's not only the School; there may be other things that other members may want to raise. I may want to raise public access, I may want to raise additional facilities for the Health Department. I'm extremely concerned as to what plans the City has as a result of the welfare legislation coming up. What arrangements do we have in the budget to deal with emergencies. There are all sorts of things that I think ought to be discussed at a caucus so that we can have an exchange of opinions informally before we go through the process and act.
Madam Chair, I would say that Mr. Cohen is correct, that members need to have an opportunity to discuss what's in the budget, but that does not in any way conflict with putting it on first reading, because that 2916 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting period between first reading and final passage is an adequate opportunity for us to put our stamp on the budget and to make whatever changes as would be necessary; that's what our amendatory process permits us. If this were second and final passage, I could see the urgency for his comment; I don't see it and, therefore, would respectfully ask him to permit us to pass this bill out, make whatever changes are appropriate and necessary between now and second and final passage.
I should ask if Mr. Cohen would permit himself to be interrogated.
I'm always ready to be interrogated. (Laughter.) 2917 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting
David, what prevents us from making the changes that you recommend or that you might see as a result of an in-depth search of it between now and second and final?
Well, there's sort of an automatic process. Once it gets reported out --
Well, it is with the body. Once it's passed, everybody feels it's gone out of committee, we ought to just enact it. And I don't see why we go through -- you know, I don't understand why we don't have these discussions. They were very helpful, we always arrived at agreement in the caucuses, every member felt he fully participated. I'm just suggesting that --
But there's nothing magic about having them before first reading, so this is between first reading and 2918 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting second and final passage. Nothing is to prohibit whatever changes would be necessary to adjust this budget so that the final one that's passed out represents your best interests. I would think you need to have it before us in order to get a true attention of people who might otherwise be opposed to your thoughts.
Well, I don't have any strong feeling that there has to be a caucus prior to committee action; I just think it would be appropriate to do it before committee action. But if we're going to have these caucuses between first and second reading, I would say that's fine, too.
But I think that's what the President is saying in her comments.
I'm just looking for a way in which Councilmembers can get together and discuss these issues other than in a formal procedure or a one on one with the Council President. I welcome what Council President Verna said about her willingness to meet, but I don't think it's a substitute for a caucus meeting; I 2919 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting think it's a very fine addition to a caucus meeting.
Well, one of the things that arose with respect to the caucus is the Sunshine Law, and so we got ourselves into a situation where we were meeting in groups of less than nine in order that we would not be automatically subject to the Sunshine Law.
No, Councilwoman, I have to disagree with you on that. I think -- I just think it is unconstitutional to say that a political party -- that the membership of a political party within a legislative body has to be open; it is not true anywhere else in the United States. And that was an interpretation that I think is a faulty legal interpretation. We use ruses to avoid it. We go down and we have briefings in the mayor's office because technically, you know, it's a meeting by the mayor, but I think we ought to openly have party caucuses. It would be unconstitutional for us not to be able to meet unless we agreed to turn over some seats to the Republicans so that we only have 2920 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting eight Democrats. Under that ruling that, you know, we say existed -- and there never was such a ruling, there's never been a ruling that we don't have the power to meet as a party caucus; we've done that sometimes. You know, when we felt it really urgent, we did it, and nobody brought suit; and if they did, I'm confident that we'd win. We've got to have the ability as a party to meet, and that's what I'm trying to reestablish.
And, again, Councilman, I am saying that any interested Councilmember can meet in my office immediately after this hearing.
All right. I'm just pointing out, Madam President, that that's different from --
And to be very honest with you, I don't remember in recent years every being called to a caucus --
Only since President Street has been -- 2921 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting
Only since President Street became president. Till he became president, we regularly had caucus meeting on the budget.
I am willing, as I said, to meet with any and all Councilmembers who are interested in coming to the meeting immediately after this hearing.
I think from the conversations that we've had and from what you stated and what Councilwoman Clark stated is that we're going to have the intervening period, and during this intervening period, we can meet as a caucus, we can meet and discuss the budget and whatever amendments we might decide to bring up before second and final reading. Is that right? 2922 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting
That's what we're talking about, right? So that we can set up through you those meetings so that we can begin discussing before final passage, because final passage does not have to follow --
Well, why can't we start today? I mean, at least we would know what each other is thinking.
Dave, I think, you know, we have a new era in Council of participation and cooperation. And I think this process can take place, you know, during the intervening period, okay? I think it can take place during the intervening period. So I see no problem in moving the legislation out of committee and then going forward with that, okay?
I think the process is the same process, but if somebody wants to call it new, that's fine. 2923 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting
It has been properly moved and second that Bill No. 990023 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation; also a recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All in favor will signify by saying aye. Those opposed? The ayes have it, the motion is carried. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark regarding Bill No. 990024.
Madam Chair, I move that Bill No. 990024 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation, and that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at the next stated session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
It's been 2924 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting properly moved and seconded that Bill No. 990024 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation, and that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All those in favor will signify by saying aye. Any opposed? The ayes have it, the motion is carried. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark regarding Bill No. 990025.
Councilwoman, I'm sorry, there's an amendment that has to be approved first.
Madam Chair, I move that the amendment to Bill No. 990025 be approved. (Duly seconded.)
It has been properly moved and seconded that the amendment to Bill No. 990025, as proposed by Mr. Kaplan, be 2925 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting approved. All in favor will signify by saying aye. Those opposed? The ayes have it, the amendment has been adopted. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark.
Madam Chair, I move that Bill No. 990025, as amended, be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation. And do we need a rules suspension?
And that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next stated session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
It has been properly moved and seconded that Bill No. 990025 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation as amended, and that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. 2926 3/10/99 WHOLE - Public Meeting All in favor will signify by saying aye. Those opposed? The ayes have it, the motion is carried. Again, I would like to repeat, we are recessing the public hearings on Bill No. 990026, the 990027, and 990028 until St. Patty's Day, March the 17th, at 1 p.m. I just want to thank all of my colleagues for their patience and for all of their interests in the budget hearings this year. I think that they went very smoothly and you were all great in being here and asking some very, very pointed questions. And I'd also like to thank Mr. Kaplan for being available to answer the many questions that we had. Thank you. This concludes it all. (Adjourned at 11:46 a.m.) - - - 2927 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Wednesday, March 10, 1999, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE BUDGET HEARINGS BILL NO. 990021, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter