I assume by the directors of the program. All I will -- because, as I said, the majority of those children are from single-parent homes. And that's a -- and most of them have no other option.
And now you mentioned one program was being transferred to Lincoln High.
The full-time -- the full-day care program is being transferred to Lincoln High School. 89 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232
Okay. Why don't we get the District folks back up and see if they can answer some of this. (School District witnesses return to witness table.)
Councilman, I want to repeat the statement that I had made earlier in this hearing for those may not have heard it. The process that the Superintendent and the staff have agreed to go through is that our having made cuts at a departmental level, the Superintendent and the staff will develop implementation plans, and they will review them with the leadership of the Board before those plans are implemented and before those plans are announced. And, therefore -- and I was apprised before I came in to this hearing that there was a meeting held last night and there were members of the District staff who presented program changes and announced them as if they were going to be implemented and they had been decided upon. 90 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 And I want to say that is not correct. And those staff got ahead of where they should be in the process. So I want to make that clear first, that that should not have happened, and I want to apologize to the parents and the people in that community. It shouldn't have happened. We're going to take steps to correct that. That's where we need to start out.
All right. So a part of your response is that they were not authorized to say what they said.
That is correct. Now, I think that Miss Chatzkel has some information about budgeting for day care at that particular school in terms of where we are in terms of funding and issues that the school faces, and we would be happy to share that with you, but I want to start out with this, that what happened last night shouldn't have happened, and let's go on from there.
I understand and I appreciate you're putting that on the record. Mr. DiDonato, this is what I'd like to do. If you want to put any other information on 91 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 the record or leave, you know, even a hanging question, which we will try to get an answer to, what I would like to do is have you do that, and then I'd like to bring the people who were at the table before back to the table.
As per the conversation last night, okay, she was told that -- I was told by my girlfriend that this event would happen about two and a half weeks from now, July 1st. And there's -- and there's two concerns. One, to put children -- like I said, to put children in a high school is ridiculous. Another thing is, July 1st is a bad time of the year. The kids are already out of school and other day cares are booked.
Also, you're talking about a lot of extra costs because the school provides the Title XX program, and you're talking an enormous amount of increase in tuition, which, believe me, I've experienced that incomes from single parents doesn't even come close from income with married parents. 92 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232
I understand. Thank you very much for sharing this information with us.
Sure, thank you. Mr. DiDonato, why don't I direct you to the very nice young man in the back there, Mr. Epstein. If you could touch base with him and share all the information that you have and phone numbers and all of that, he will take care of it. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you. I just have a comment based on the testimony, and this is more, I guess, hypothetical or philosophical than it is directed at this particular situation, 'cause I know that people have serious problems when it comes to child care and working and the fact that it was kind of sprung on the them at the last minute. But I think the long-term problem that this District faces, and has faced for a number of years, is that it is being asked increasingly to do things and to provide services that it never 93 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 provided before because of the way society has changed over the years. And I don't want to sound like I'm a World War II veteran or anything and I'm reminiscing about the good old days. But not too long, you wouldn't think of a school providing preschool, day care, both after-school care and pre-care. I think a lot of the resources and stuff that we spend money on now are required or mandated or we decide to spend that kind of dollars and are things that really aren't necessarily school-related. It may be societal-related, it may be community-related as it relates services in the community and allowing parents who are by themselves, which there are more and more single parents than there were 10 or 15 or 20 years ago, to have a good life and to work and to raise their kids. But I think what schools are facing is that they're dealing with nutrition, they're dealing with health care, they're dealing with day care, they're dealing with adult education and adult issues. And I'm not saying that any of them are bad or any of them shouldn't be provided. But the more and more you drain the available sources 94 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 resources for things that are not traditional education, the less money you have for science teachers and music teachers and arts and culture and other things that enrich and make a school district desirable. And you don't have -- I don't have an answer for this and you don't have an answer for it and the gentleman who testified so clearly doesn't have an answer for this. But the point is, I think at some point in time, we have to figure out what it is a school district is supposed to provide and then try to figure out an avenue or vehicle to provide the other social services that communities and parents need, but not through the School District. Because I think what happens is -- teachers say to me, you know, I leave the system, or I'm leaving the system because when I go in in the morning, before I start my lesson plan, I have to deal with two kids haven't eaten, I have to deal with three kids whose clothes are so filthy that we need to go to changing room to get them clean clothes to put on. And a lot of these problems are related to drugs and societal 95 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 problems and other kinds of issues. But in the end, there is never going to be enough money of any municipal government or any government of any kind to provide the comprehensive social-service needs that this school district is being asked to be provided. And, I mean, that's just a comment from me. I think we ought to solve the Forest School problem, and I think we ought to, in your implementation plan, have as little hurt as possible. But at some point in time, we're going to run out of money, everybody's going to run out of money. And something's going to have to be done either in a private way, in a religious or social service way, in a nonprofit way to deal with these issues, because I don't see it ending. Frankly, what I do see is less and less of a tax base and more and more social-service needs, and less of those dollars being generated and pushed towards education.
Councilman, the only thing I'd want to add is this. I believe I'm speaking for the entire board in saying this much. Where parents and/or government entities have put 96 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 together the financial resources and the volunteer efforts to put child-care programs together and they need space and the School District can provide the space, we will do so. And many of the programs that we run are of that nature, where the funding is there and the parental effort is there, and in some cases, we can provide this base. I will say that in many neighborhoods, that's getting to be an increasing problem. As enrollments go up, we get squeezed in terms of space to be able to run regular classes, and that is an issue with some of our schools, and I do want to flag that issue for you. But, I mean, you know, it is our general approach that where the funding is there, the parental interest is there, the parental involvement and contributions are there and we have the space, we will do our part to help with child care in the City.
And I'm not in any way arguing that we shouldn't undertake a approach to solve and alleviate these problems that are social in nature, but I do just want to state for the record that I think I would much rather have 97 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 this money going into teaching kids a second language or a musical instrument or some advanced science program, or something of that nature than I would be providing social services could be, or perhaps could be, provided from a nonprofit religious or other type of non-school-based situation. It's just -- it's a real worry, as time goes on, of will we ever have enough money to do all of the things we're expected to do? Thanks.
Thank you, Councilman. Mr. Masch and Miss Chatzkel, I mean, you have taken us through -- and first let me say that I greatly appreciate the rapid response to the information request, the memo provided by Mr. Epstein to the Council President with regard to the requests for information that were made just on Monday. Can you give us a sense at this point of where are things going and what is the plan, not only short-term, we have a sense of what has, you know, kind of been cobbled together to get 98 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 through the next year. Based on your collective, albeit short experiences, what can you tell us today in terms of the longer-term plan and prospects for stable funding and acknowledging that -- unless you disagree with this -- we have only put off a potentially disastrous situation for a year. We run the risk, naturally, of revisiting all of this conversation, not only during the course of this upcoming school year, but literally facing the same prospects, probably more, next year. What is the game plan?
Councilman Nutter, I would like to answer in my new role and also ask Mr. Masch t answer in his -- almost his new role. We talk about a long-term plan, and it's not a magic pill. A long-term plan is not the same as a balanced budget, but it's critical because it starts with an analysis of how we got to the point that we're at, and you had asked for some that background, which is summarized in what you received on Monday.
Right, right. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but one of the reasons 99 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 that I asked for that is, at least for myself, it is only through some level of that understanding on the financial side and to the extent that people have any of the history of either the politics and the personalities -- I mean, some of that is good and some of it will just be interesting stories. But I think in order to kind of scrape ourselves off of pretty much the bottom, we have to know how got here, what we're potentially fighting through to get back to where we potentially once were, and why are we trying to do that in the first place. So, I mean, that's -- it is at least helpful to me how we ended up where we are today and what we plan to try to do about it going forward.
Right. And what that history shows is that while we have put off a deficit situation through a lot of extraordinary means -- through refinancing our debt or tax lien sale -- really, if you look back over the past five years, we've never had a comfortable surplus, a surplus that we didn't have to do things outside of the scope of our ordinary course of business to 100 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 achieve.
And what we hope to do with the Five-Year Plan is address in part what Councilman Kenney raised. We provide a lot of services which, everybody agrees, need to be provided to kids in order to have them learn. The question is, is the most efficient, the best place to have those offered within the School District? And we need to look at other large urban school districts who have the same issues to see how they address those same needs; who in their community, whether it's the public sector, not-for-profits, or the private sector, that addresses them does. And we need to look at measures of efficiency and results for those as well. So we have to take a close look at our operations. It's not just a financial look; it's a look at how we offer everything we do. Then we need to look at funding relative to other urban school districts, both local, and taking into account our local circumstance and looking at state. And then when you ask, what do we 101 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 propose to do this? -- and this is the part I particularly wanted to answer in my role, and I know that the Board is supportive of this, and in their respective roles, want to do the same. I've sensed, just in my recent time with the District, the degree of trust that needs to be increased with regard to what we're presenting. And we have to do that by communicating frequently, not just at a point in the year that we're at now, and conveying our story to you -- good, bad, or indifferent -- and by "you," I mean the public -- during the course of a year. And as do this plan, to communicate what we find, again, during the course of the year.
Well, I certainly agree with everything that Miss Chatzkel said. I feel that the Board needs to come before both City Council and the State legislature, our two funders, with a much better explanation than has been presented to date as to what we spend and why we spend it and how we should -- how we can know whether we are efficient and the degree to which we are efficient and the degree to which we have to become more so to meet an acceptable standard 102 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 of efficiency. But I think underlining all of that, or maybe proceeding it, we have to come to agreement, all of us, as to what the components of a successful educational program are for Philadelphia's children. In my short time in this role, in my longer time as a citizen and as a resident of this city and this state, I have been convinced -- and everything I've learned in the past 60 days only serves to reinforce that -- that the knowledge is there in terms of how to improve the educational performance of our children, but I don't think everybody's convinced of that, and it's clear that it's not self-evident. So we need to start with what's the program that works, all right? Are smaller class sizes important? Are tougher standards important? Is teacher training important? And in all of those areas, what kind and how much should it cost if done efficiently. And then build from there. And that is the part that I think we as a board have to take particular responsibility for, and then dialogue with those of you who are the 103 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 funders at the City and State level, and clearly, you're going to need to dialogue with one another. And, you know, if we don't do that very, very effectively and very well and very intensively in the next six to eight months, then there won't have been much point to forestalling a crisis, which, I absolutely agree with you, is what the current agreement between the City, the State, and the School District does. It bides us some time. And if we don't use that time wisely and effectively, then that will be a tremendous tragedy.
Mr. Masch and Miss Chatzkel, thank you very much for laying it out. I think both of you -- and, Mike, naturally, we've known you longer and in a couple of different capacities. I think, hopefully, it continues to remain evident to the School District that there is tremendous concern, heartfelt concern, personal concern, political concern, if you will, for the School District from the elected officials here. I will not speak for any of my colleagues, but I think generally people care about public 104 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 education, they want the School District to be successful, no one wants it to shut down, go out of business, be taken over or anything else. And regardless of the day-to-day differences of opinions about what goes on at one of the 259 buildings or what happens over at 21st and the Parkway, there is, I believe, a tremendous wealth of support for the District. That does not mean, naturally, that we won't ask the questions that need to be asked, that we won't ask tough questions, and we won't ask what happens with the money that goes over there; and if you need more, what is it for and why? And as we also grapple with making sure that we're being fiscally responsible in asking the same questions within the government, that if we were going to send money over, where do we get it from? And that's a process that we go through. The timing on all of this -- there's probably no good time to go through one of these kind of situations, but I think, as we have demonstrated in the past, we have the capacity to get through it, and I'm certainly going to do all 105 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 that I can to continue to support the District, but we will ask, as you know, the tough questions that need to be asked.
Councilman, that is your right and your responsibility and your obligation, and it our obligation to give you full and clear and timely answers, and that's our commitment to you.
With respect to the recent exchange between you, Mr. Masch, and Councilman Nutter, I think that's very good, but I wanted to add a -- few put a few marbles in the ring. I think the District, over time, has been known to the people of Philadelphia as a kind of cold institution represented by this monstrous building at 21st Street. It has not been known as a sensitive organization, but just the opposite. And I would hope that as the -- and while I thought many things that Superintendent Hornbeck did were fine and were going in the right direction, he did not seem to ever appreciate the 106 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 role of warmth and sensitivity. And I think it reflected itself in the feeling in some places that the School District was not really interested in the people. And so when you're talking about the Board's functions, I would like you to -- all of you to be aware of all of that, and I hope that you will move in the direction of showing sensitivity in things. A child may be hurt at school, the parent doesn't get told for hours, or if parent does get told, it's by a police officer who may have been called in instead of the school officials showing interest and going out of their way to communication with the child's parents. There were innumerable instances that occurred all the time like that, and I hope you move in that direction. Then you've got to realize there are a lot of questions about the Board as a result of the change in the composition of the Board. With no Board member being guaranteed more than 10 days' security of a position, there is a lot of question out in the community: Is this board a board that really has any power, or is it just a 107 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 group puppets, you know, there to do the Mayor's bidding at all times? What authority does the Board really have? All sorts of questions like that that will have to be answered in the course of the life of this board. Then there's question of funding. Councilman Nutter referred to our obligation. Well, it happens that with respect to School Board money, City Council does not have any authorization over the budget and its huge sums of money if in fact only the Mayor is the principal player for him to have control over that money without the check and balance system that exists in the rest of the City departments. And I think it was for that reason that there was a question and an exchange that came up involving -- involving that initiative yesterday as to Council's responsibility. We're being asked, say, with respect to this 20 million to add $20 million to a pot of money over which we have no legal authority to question in the same extent we question and can act on other City appropriations. So these are all difficult things that 108 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 have to be factored in. And, again, I think the public is going to be watching carefully. You know what happens as that scenario plays out. So I wanted to put on the table all of the concerns. Councilmembers, you know, are a diverse body, and we will have different interests in different directions, but we'll generally be able to come together, as Mr. Masch knows from before, in a consensus of opinion finally, and what that consensus will be, I think will, in large part, dependent on the response of the Board. Mr. DiDonato, did you want to say anything further?
Would you come up. Why don't you two stay where you are. (Witness comes forward.)
You've met, Mr. DiDonato, with the representative of the Board? You have to identify yourself again for the record.
My name is Mark 109 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 DiDonato, and I live in the Wissanoming section of the City, and I've come down on behalf of the Forest School day care program. Okay, I just want to say in closing that I listened to Councilman Kenney's remarks. Myself, as a single parent, we don't want a handout, we just want a helping hand. Nobody created our situation. Okay, we're not saying we're not blaming for anybody for the situation that we're in. We took the responsibility of taking care of our children, somebody had to do it, okay, while the other party bugged out. If the day care program is run through the school system, we would like to be a part of it. If they don't want it, let somebody else take care of it, all right? I'm a product of the school system myself, but this is a whole different situation. It's a different social time, where there's no commitment. And for Councilman Kenney to say that is way out of line.
Well, I don't think Councilman Kenney meant to disparage or indicate any unfavorable attitude to the program. What he 110 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 was suggesting was that there ought to be a funding arrangement.
I understand that, but I sort of took it as, you know, we're looking for somebody to babysit our kids and we want to be a burden on the School District. No, we don't. We just want, you know, we're not sitting home collecting a welfare check, okay? Pretty soon, we're not going to be able to do it anyway. I work full-time. The people that I've been involved with, they work full-time. Some of them go from one to four children -- widows, divorced parents. I've been there and I'm proud to say that -- I can tell you, I've had custody of my son for 12 years, okay? And I'm the one that came down to court every other month for two years. And, believe me, when it was time to apply for that Title XX day care so I could work, I was more proud to go out to work as opposed to just sitting home collecting a welfare check, looking at son. And my son looks up to me, and there's other children who look up to their parents 'cause they get up in the morning, they 111 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 drop 'em off and they go to work.
All right, we thank you very much for coming down today to let us know about the situation. And Mr. Masch, I think, explained very well the interest of the school.
And I thank you for this time. Also, there will be a demonstration tonight of those day care parents at Frankford and Cottman Avenue at 6 to let people know that there's no reason to close the day care center. People need it.
Thank you, thank you. Mr. Masch and Miss Chatzkel, I think we've come to the end of the road for today. And so -- because I don't know what the intent of the chair of the committee is, I'm going to recess the hearing until the call of the Chair. And -- well, let me withdraw that for a minute and let me recess t to tomorrow morning, at 9 o'clock, at which time the President will make an announcement as to whether the hearings will be recessed to a specific date or whether they will 112 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 be adjourned or just recessed indefinitely to the call of the Chair. So today's hearing is recessed till tomorrow morning, at o'clock. 6
Very good, and we will be 7 happy to be back in the future. We expect to be 8 back here. As I said, Councilman, we understand 9 that it's your responsibility and your obligation to demand accountability of us as one of the key funders, and we would expect nothing less. And we expect that you will expect high standards for us in terms of what we do. And you know that the Board is a very diverse group, but I think the thing that unites us all, which we have in common with you and the other Councilmembers is our concern for the school children of Philadelphia and our desire to see them grow up healthy and self-sufficient, in a city that we all care for.
All right. That's a good closing statement for today. So this hearing stands in recess until 9 o'clock a.m. tomorrow. I will just state that I don't think it will be necessary for anybody from 113 6/7/00 - FISCAL STABILITY - RES. 000232 the School District to be here. If there's any change, if the President does want to continue these hearings, I'm sure she'll be in touch with you later this afternoon. Thank you. (Adjourned at 3:20 p.m.) - - - 114 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Wednesday, June 7 2000, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON FISCAL STABILITY RESOLUTION NO. 000232 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter