Committee Hearing, March 29, 2004

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, March 29, 2004 4:05 p.m. - - - RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - Resolution authorizing Council's Committee on Public Safety to hold public hearings to investigate how the City conducted its investigation into the December 15, 1997, fire at the house of Luz Aida Cuevas and the presumed death in that fire of Delimar Vera. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN JUAN F. RAMOS COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE L. BLACKWELL COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK J. DiCICCO COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 THE CHAIRWOMAN: We are going to say good afternoon again for the purpose of the record. The Committee on Public Safety is now in session, the Public Hearing. Members of the committee in attendance is Councilman Frank Rizzo, to my left; Councilwoman Joan Krajewski, to my left; Councilman Juan Ramos. I am Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller, Chair of the Committee. We also have in a tense answer in chamber Councilman Frank DiCicco and also State Representative Angel Cruz, who is also going to be asking questions from Rick Mariano's desk. And Blondell Reynolds Brown, I think she will be back shortly. Before we have the clerk read the resolution, I just want to remind all of our colleagues and committee members that today's hearing will be directed only at the general process, procedure, and protocols used by the Fire Department, Medical Examiner's Office and Police Department in conducting fire scene investigations. 3 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Pursuant to the advice of Council from the Law Department, no one may ask any specific questions about the Hurley Street fire or the Delimar Vera investigation. We do not want to adversely impact or affect in any manner the open criminal investigation, potential civil, or the Fire Department's review of these circumstances, civil litigation. I will explain the scope of the inquiry for these hearings in my opening statement. Actually, Councilman Ramos will explain that in his opening statement. And we ask everyone to adhere to this process and the approach for this hearing. Can we have the clerk please read the number and the resolution.

Resolution No. 040195, resolution authorizing Council's Committee on Public Safety to hold public hearings to investigate how the city conducted its investigation into the December 15, 1997, fire at the house of Luz aida Cuevas, and the 4 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 presumed death in the fire of Delimar Vera, recently discovered to be living as Aliyah Hernandez now years old, who was in fact 5 kidnapped from her home before the fire was 6 set. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. We will now have an opening comment from Councilman Juan Ramos, who is the author of this resolution.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Good afternoon, everyone. Before we begin these hearings, I would like to set out the scope or framework, if you will, of how these hearings will be conducted. The resolution calling for these hearings indicated we will investigate how the city conducted its investigation into the December 15, 1997, fire, at the house of Luz Aida Cuevas, and in particular the decision to end that investigation after it was concluded that ten-day-old Delimar Vera had died in the fire, notwithstanding the absence of human remains. 5 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 At the outset, let me say that while it is important to address and resolve the outstanding questions about this specific situation, it is equally if not more important to address the broader questions that go beyond this particular case and deal with the overall processes, procedures, and protocols that govern all fire and emergency response investigations, including how and when fire investigations are closed. It is to these broader issues and questions that we will direct our initial focus. We are taking this approach for several reasons. After these hearings were first scheduled, the committee contacted the Fire Commissioner, the Medical Examiner, and the Police Commissioner to assist us in this task by providing testimony and information about the events and circumstances of the Hurley Street fire on December 15, 1997. Each responded that they were willing to provide information; however, they felt constrained not to testify on this 6 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 specific case because of several significant factors. First, we are reminded that the District Attorney's Office has initiated a criminal prosecution and is actively investigating the events surrounding the Hurley Street fire. Concerns were expressed that a Public Hearing at this time could negatively impact the investigation and criminal prosecution. The presentation of documentary evidence and discussions about such materials at this time could interfere with how the District Attorney prosecutes that case and how defense counsel might respond. In addition, the coverage of these hearings by the press and the associated public discussion of these matters could have an effect on potential jurors who will be involved in the trial. Second, we have been advised by the City Solicitor's Office that they may have been put on notice of a possible civil suit as 7 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 a result of the events of the Hurley Street fire. Consequently, whatever is said by city officials or employees or whatever documents are submitted to the committee about this case will likely be used in a civil trial. Again, any disclosure of specific information could affect the trial and possibly the outcome of that litigation. Third, we have been informed that the fire department has undertaken a full review of the Hurley Street fire and has not yet completed its evaluation. It is our expectation that upon its completion, this review will be provided to this committee in due course. As a result of these legitimate concerns, the committee has decided for the moment to focus on the broader issues and questions we have about fire and emergency scene investigations and their related processes, procedures, and protocols. As I have always stated, these have 8 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 been my concern as they relate to this case. In short, at this time we will be investigating the investigation process in general, not the specific investigation of the Hurley Street fire. We are taking this approach because we care about Luz Aida Cuevas and her daughter Delimar Vera. Regardless of the outcome of any criminal or civil litigation about the events of that night, we are very happy that this little girl and her family have been reunited.

It is because we care about the family and we care about the search for truth and justice that we are taking this approach and will work very hard to not interfere in the criminal case, the potential civil litigation, or the present active investigations. However, as responsible elected officials, we need to address the broader questions raised by this specific case to ensure that important city services are being provided to all of our citizens in a fair, 9 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 equal, and effective way, as well as to reinforce and promote the public's confidence in the city departments. I am certain that by taking this approach, we can, in a responsible and timely manner, balance all of the various interests, concerns we have identified. Let there be no doubt in anyone's mind as to the high opinion and great respect I and every member of this committee has for the men and women who serve in the Fire Department. We greatly appreciate their extraordinary commitment and exceptional dedication to the public. It is through their daily efforts that Philadelphia has been blessed with one of the finest Fire Departments in the nation. Please excuse this lengthy opening statement. I feel like a lawyer, but I am not. But it is important to everyone concerned that we all understand what we are trying to accomplish with these hearings; to review the processes, to review the procedures 10 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 and the protocols used in fire and emergency investigations and how and when those investigations are closed. Nothing more, and nothing less. Thank you, Madam Chair. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Thank you, Councilman Ramos. For the record, we also have Councilman David Cohen, who is a member of this committee, in attendance, and Councilwoman Marian Tasco in the audience in Council chambers. At the table here we also have Milton Valez, who is a lawyer with the city's law department, to make sure we keep on track and not ask questions that we shouldn't be asking. Would the clerk please call the first witness.

Fire Commissioner Mr. Harold Hairston and staff. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Good afternoon, Madam Chairman, other members of the Public Safety Committee, other Council 11 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Members that are present here. Let me begin by saying that, first of all, I am Harold Hairston. I am the Fire Commissioner for the City of Philadelphia. To my right is Robert Ruff. Robert Ruff is the Fire Marshal, and he has about 30 -- in fact, he has exactly the same amount of time in the Fire Department that I do, which is 39 years plus. And to my left we have Carlton L. Johnson, who is the Chief Deputy City Solicitor for Civil Rights. Let me begin by saying that I too, as well as other members of the Fire Department, are pleased that this family has been reunited. And although you began by laying this out, I feel compelled to read this statement to you before I proceed with the other things in terms of my statements. I have been advised by counsel from the City Solicitor's Office that it is not your intent at this hearing to elicit any testimony or information dealing specifically 12 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 with the Hurley Street fire. Consequently, based on this representation and understanding, my department will, to the extent possible, cooperate and assist you and your committee. Subject to the advice of counsel, we are prepared to discuss generally any questions the committee may have with respect to relevant department practices, policies, and protocols that deal with the interaction of the Fire Marshal's Office with fire scene emergency response investigations and other city agencies. Now, to begin, the Fire Marshal's Office is made up of 14 people. To my right, of course, is the Fire Marshal, who I just introduced. He is a deputy chief in our department. He has a deputy that works for him, who is a battalion chief. He has one captain that is assigned, he has 11 lieutenants. The office is broken down this way. There are four platoons that the Fire 13 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Department operates, A, B, C, and D. He has one person that's a lieutenant assigned to each of those platoons. So that takes up 4 of the 11 lieutenants. He has what we call areas. We are five areas, so five lieutenants are assigned to those areas. They work day work, and that means they work Monday to Friday. He also has two other lieutenants that are assigned to long-term or special investigations. Although the investigation that's done by the Fire Marshal's Office is their primary responsibility, they also serve as a custodian of records. And there are procedures that require them to respond, also, to other kinds of incidents and serve as a liaison with other departments. S. Attorney's Office, the Medical Examiner's Office, and the District Attorney's Office. 14 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 The assigned assistant Fire Marshal's get their education, and to the degree that we can we get them certified, through a process that requires a lengthy examination and experience levels. And they maintain that by continuing their education through a lot of different means; primarily through the FBI, also through Intercounty Detective School attendance, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, as well as the National Fire Academy. Fire investigation is really laid out very clearly about how you are to conduct them in what we call NFPA 921, which is the guide for fire and explosion investigations. And we presently use the 2001 edition, and it is considered a consensus standard. So that means that people such as myself and Bob Ruff, as well as other investigators from around the country, may have some input into that standard. And there is a whole process that you go through in order to get the consensus, and then it gets written. And that's followed 15 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 by not just us, but many departments around the country.

The nature of fire investigations, for an example, is a fire or explosion investigation is a complex endeavor involving skill, technology, knowledge, and science. A compilation of factual data, as well as an analysis of those facts should be accomplished objectively and truthfully. The basic methodology of the fire investigation should rely on the use of systematic approach and attention to all relevant details. The use of a systematic approach often will uncover new factual data for analysis which may require previous conclusions to be reevaluated. With few exceptions, the proper methodology for fire explosion investigation is to first determine and establish the origin, then investigate the cause, circumstances, conditions, or agencies that brought the ignition source and fuel together. Now, the basic method is divided 16 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 into five major steps. It is receiving the assignment, preparing for the investigation, conducting the investigation, collecting and preserving evidence and analyzing the incident, and reporting procedure. 5. It also states in this procedure a typical fire explosion investigation may include all or some of the following: A scene inspection, scene documentation through photography and diagramming, evidence recognition, documentation and preservation, witness interviews, review and analysis of the investigations of others, and identification and collection of data or information from other appropriate sources. 3. The response procedure. A citywide coverage is provided by the way I had explained it to you, in terms of having the procedure where you have four people that work the different platoons and you have the five people that are assigned to day work. And they respond on incendiary or 17 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 suspicious fires in occupied properties, incendiary or suspicious fires with witnesses and/or suspects, multiple alarms, death or serious injuries that require hospitalization. Various other situations designated in this are in Operational Procedure 18, which is really one of our documents. And that includes hazardous materials incidents, mass casualty incidents, explosion, structural collapse, arrest at a fire scene, and when requested by the first-in battalion chief. Investigations other than the ones that I talked about are considered routine responses, and it depends on the workload of the day-work persons as to how we deploy them. Fires involving a fire fatality. Communication center immediately notifies various department units in the event of a fire fatality. Assistant Fire Marshal responds and serves as a primary investigator. The Fire Marshal or his command staff is notified, and one of the commanders responds upon notification. If additional assistance is required 18 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 in the investigation, the Command Fire Marshal facilitates whatever is necessary to conduct the investigation. Medical Examiner's Office is notified in the event of fire death. Medical Examiner's Office will either respond to the scene or take charge of the victim's remain or they will request that the remains be transported to the Medical Examiner's Office by the police. Police Department is notified in the event of a fire death. Patrol officers and detectives respond. It is a responsibility of the Fire Marshal's Office to gather and take custody of evidence and cooperate with the Police Department, District Attorney's Office and other law enforcement agencies in the prosecution and preservation of the evidence, if criminal charges are preferred. Investigation followup. After the on-scene investigation is completed, the primary investigator continues the investigation. He has contact between the 19 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 primary investigator and the Medical Examiner's Office and the Police Department by way of telephone.

The Medical Examiner's Office determines the cause of death; the Fire Marshal's Office determines the origin and cause and the circumstances of the fire; and the Police Department is contacted for followup. Reports. The following reports are prepared by the Fire Department: A fire report is prepared by all companies that went into service except at rubbish fires and medical assignments. Incident reports. Prepared by the Fire Marshal's Office for all investigations. A formal report, prepared by the Assistant Fire Marshal, who is the primary investigator for all fires involving a fire fatality and all fires involving multiple alarms. If you have any followup questions to this, I would be happy to take those questions at this time. And between Bob Ruff, who is to my 20 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 right, and who is the Fire Marshal, the two of us should be able to give you any information that is necessary based on the scope that has already been determined by the City Solicitor's Office.

Thank you, Commissioner. The Chair has asked me to fill in for her. She should be back shortly. Again, Commissioner, thank you and the Fire Marshal and all of you who have been so patient waiting here for such a very long time. I have a series of questions for you, Commissioner. And some of them might apply or pertain to the Fire Marshal, so please bear with me. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Before you begin, let me tell you that I have extensive experience in the Fire Department in most areas. I was, in fact, An assistant Fire Marshal for some time. I was the later the Deputy Fire Marshal. And many of the procedures there, I am clearly responsible for. 21 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04

Thank you. Does the Philadelphia Fire Department have any written procedures or guidelines to direct staff in responding to fire scenes? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Yes, we do. We have a procedure that tells our people, based on the kind of general guidelines I laid out, as to when they would respond. And they fall into those four categories that I named off, starting with having a suspicious fire. That's determined by whoever is first in on the scene. So if you have a fire that's going on, and you have a battalion chief on location or a company officer, they make a determination as to whether or not it falls into one of those four categories. And if it does, there will be a notification by way of a request that goes into our communications center. And then the Assistant Fire Marshal that would handle that particular situation would then be notified and he would respond. 22 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 And it depends on what he finds when he gets on location as to what other things are activated. If he goes and it is a rather routine kind of situation, then he handles that strictly by himself. If he needs any additional help, we are rather generous in providing that help. And what happens is, a notification is made to the Command Fire Marshal, one of the commanders in the Fire Marshal's Office. That person then responds and kind of facilitates anything that is necessary for them to be able to get all the help that they need. So that's a basic kind of situation where, in the communications center, it tells you, based on whatever the circumstances are, as to whether or not a Fire Marshal should be automatically notified. Aside from that notification, the incident commander or a person on scene can ask for any additional help from the Fire Marshal's Office that they might want. 23 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Sometimes it has nothing to do with an investigation; it is simply to serve as liaison between us and other city agencies.

And these are written procedures? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: These are written, that is correct.

Can you provide us with a copy of these procedures, to the committee, please? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: At this point I see no reason not to be able to provide those things. However, I will confer with counsel to make sure that we don't do anything that would in any way jeopardize this case.

Understood. Do those procedures address how firefighters should communicate at fire or emergency scenes with nonEnglish or limited English speakers? I want to clear what I mean by that. For the purposes of these hearings, I will define "nonEnglish speakers" as someone 24 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 who does not speak any English at all, say a recent immigrant. By "limited English speaking," I mean someone who attempts to communicate in English but has a very limited vocabulary or a thick accent that makes him or her difficult to understand. Do these procedures address how firefighters should communicate at fires or emergency scenes with nonEnglish or limited English speakers? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: No. What we have is reasonably obvious in terms of persons' knowledge of the 911 system that notifies us that there is a fire. Once we get that, then we dispatch, based on the information that we have, whether or not it came in over a cell phone or whether or not it came in over a hard wire. Once we get on location, then it becomes obvious to us as to what's on fire based on us going into service to remove any possible victims, protect the property to the degree that we can, and of course extinguish the fire. 25 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Should any followup be necessary in terms of conversations with persons, usually you can get it right from people that are on the scene. If there is any difficulty in terms of communicating with anybody, we have since 1989 started a process that really fell in place around 1992, where we use selective factor as a certification for Spanish-speaking people. And, therefore, we have about 95 people who are in various areas where you have high concentrations of Spanish-speaking people. Our goal has been to try to get about 10 percent based on that. But whenever we have a situation -- because most fires are kind of innocent. I mean, most of them are not suspicious or anything like that. There is always somebody on scene that can tell you what's going on, and we use that. If we have a specialty for some reason or another, where we simply cannot communicate, we can usually get it done RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 through the Police Department or someone in our department happened to speak that particular language. And, so, it has not been a problem at all for us in terms of communicating or anything like that. Usually there is something there that can tell you what's going on. And if there is anything required after that, what we do is, we can get it either through the Police Department, if we need to do any interviews or anything like that, where the language is a real barrier for us, or we have a procedure where there is a number you can call. And we have that available to us through our fire communications centers.

Everything that you just described, they are procedures but they are nonwritten procedures; is that correct? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: No; because they are kind of obvious. We have been into this for a very 27 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 long time, putting out fires and going into every area of the city. And we just simply have never had it as a problem in terms of being able to communicate with somebody. The object in a fire situation is to, of course, remove yourself and to go out and for us to go ahead and get you out. And people do that in a very natural way. They remove themselves in most cases. The ones that don't, you know, we get there and we go in and risk and do a whole series of searches, starting with a primary search, secondary search, and as many searchs as necessary in order to try to find that person, locate them, and get them out. After that, the barriers may be implied, but they are just not there in terms of it.

I want to commend you for your recruitment in the Hispanic community, because I have seen it firsthand. And that's really increased. And I know that your efforts are still ongoing. Can you please explain what training 28 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 is provided to recruits at the fire academy to instruct them on the written procedures or guidelines of the department? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I am sorry. Repeat that question.

Can you describe what kind of training is provided to recruits at the fire academy to instruct them on the written procedures or guidelines? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Our procedures have, of course, changed many times over the years. When Bob and I went to the fire academy, we didn't even call it an academy then, we called it a school, and it was 8 weeks of training, and now it is up to 15 weeks. And what we do is, we train them, train all our recruits, in what we called emergency medical services, so that they can render higher degree than Bob and I were aware of in terms of any kind of medical procedures. Because we have a procedure where, since 1974, it has been a requirement for all 29 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 of our recruits to become what we call EMTs, emergency medical technicians. Aside from that, we teach them, first of all, how to locate and extinguish fires and do it as safely as possible. We divide the training up in two areas; one deals with ladder company training, the other deals with engine company training. The training is kind of obvious in terms of its intent. Engine companies are the ones that connect the hydrants and put the fires out. Ladder companies are the ones that make forcible entry and put their ladders up and go in for rescue and do ventilation and salvage and overhaul. We have, over the last several years, decided that it was important for us -- and in particularly after 911 -- that we, because it is kind of a natural trend, certify our people. So there is a whole certification process that's done through the state where we certify our firefighters as Firefighters 1. The opportunity to practice putting out fires and practice a whole series of what 30 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 we call skilled proficiency to ensure that people are, one, in good condition; two, that they are able to go in, locate a fire, and actually remove a person, as well as to be able to extinguish the fire and do it safely without any harm to themselves, is a primary focus of what we do in the fire academy. Aside from that, we have a whole series of things that are required in terms of the fire cadets at that point to complete so that their knowledge is complete about the Fire Department and about the procedures that we have in place. Which, we issued them a booklet with all of the relevant information regarding directives and procedures, and how to sit a watch, and the kind of things that they could expect once they go out and become part of this force. That has worked extremely well for us, continues to work very well. Those procedures are well outlined and documented.

Does the state certification address language around 31 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 communication issues? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: No, it does not.

How are firefighters generally taught to deal with nonEnglish or limited English speakers at fire scenes? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well --

Do they have courses at the academy? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: First of all, it is almost nonexistent. What we decided to do, and particularly when it comes down to Latinos, because we have made really -- that's a substantial part of the population. So our goal has been to hire as many as we possibly can, using that selective factor certification. Those people who fall under that get the same training as every other firefighter does. And, therefore, you get some good sense about this. But you have to remember that in a 32 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 fair scenario, it is relatively simple. It is real obvious that the fire is burning. You get there, and it doesn't require a whole lot in terms of looking around to find out. And we have been very successful with that. So if you get to a fire scene, almost invariably, with rare exception, are you going to be there and somebody else is going to be there. And generally kids speak more than one language. And, so, invariably, you can get that information from people that are on the scene, whether or not it is kids, whether or not it is other English-speaking persons. And regardless of what the language is, we don't have a problem in terms of that. Police Department responds, as well. And they deal routinely with persons who are nonEnglish speaking, who can assist us at any given time should the need be, whether it is for investigative purposes or for any other purposes that may require language as some specialty.

Commissioner, am 33 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 will going to yield for a minute to my colleague Councilman Rizzo. Just a followup question, then I will yield and come back with some other questions I have. Are you satisfied with the way your department has handled fires where you have had people that do not speak English at all, and be able to control emotions or understand what's going on at the fire scene? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: To be perfectly honest, I think we do a terrific job. I mean, I don't want to brag about it. But the fact is I would put up against anybody, anyplace, for any given reason, when it comes down to whether it is fire procedures, whether or not it is dealing with the public in any way, and the kind of programs that we have. As an example, one of the things that we did this last year was to create a calendar with all of these various tips that are seasonal. And we did it in five different languages. And I think that works, and it works extremely well for us. 34 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 And we include people, to the degree that we can, in terms of their availability, at any time in all of the things that we do. We believe very much that the ideal circumstances for this department and for any other city workers, as far as that's concerned, that it ought to be reflective of the community. We do everything that we can reasonably do in order to ensure that. We will continue to work for that. But I don't want to make a problem out of something that really does not exist. The fact is, we do extremely well in communicating with anybody that needs to be communicated with for any purposes that deal with the Fire Department.

I will yield to my colleague Councilman Rizzo.

I am just waiting for my turn. But I will ask my question now, if it is appropriate. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I guess you are not waiting for your turn, then. 35 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04

I am sorry? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Never mind.

My question is different than the language barrier. I want to get right to the meat of this thing. And I know that I might get bleeped, but I hope not. I have a question. 39 years in the fire service, 78 years combined between the two of you, when you have responded to a fire, how many times in your career -- and, again, I am not talking about the current incident -- has the report been that the person that was in the fire been totally incinerated? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Hold on for a second.

I told you. (Commissioner Hairston confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: On the advice of counsel, I decline to answer that at this time.

You know, I question counsel's -- we are here to try to learn something. And I am not asking about 36 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 this case. I am asking, in your 39 years of experience, how many fires have you determined in your career that the people that were counted as fatalities were totally incinerated? I will ask the question one more time. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Councilman, you were extremely clear in your question. I had no problem understanding it whatsoever. But due that I have been given the advice of counsel to refrain from answering that question, I decline to answer it based on the advice of counsel.

Could I confer with our counsel and ask how I can ask that question? The issue of communication at the scene of a fire is very important to me. We are here conducting a Public Hearing, and we are trying to learn information that would be helpful to me. So I will come back at you with that question a little bit later in the hearing. 37 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Because, again, I don't think this is going to be too beneficial to me, if we are being bleeped already at this point. But we will continue and see exactly where we are. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to remind my colleagues that we might have questions that might seem appropriate to us, and. But, we have laid out a scope and the parameters of questioning. And you have your question, you have counsel on both sides, and see what's appropriate within the framework that we have set out for this hearing. Commissioner, for the typical fire, assuming there is such a thing, please describe the line of command and communications -- I am sorry. Councilman Rizzo, did you want a followup question? I am sorry. I said I would yield to you.

I have some tougher questions than that one. So if I 38 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 couldn't get that one on an answer, so I am just going to have to sit tight here until I come up with something that's not too complicated.

Counsel is here, and Rick has joined us, as well.

Thank you.

Commissioner, for the typical fire, assuming there is such a thing, can you describe the line of command of communication among responding firefighters for me, please. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: A typical response I will give you from a row house perspective. The typical row house requires that we send two engine companies, two ladder companies, one battalion chief. And if there are followup phone calls, where maybe they come in over somebody's cell phones or additional information is given by the police, or anything like that, then we may decide to upgrade that assignment at any given time. 39 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Each of the companies that I described, in other words, the two ladder companies, the two engine companies, have either an officer that is regularly assigned or one that is there for that day, whether he is a regular officer or whether or not he is a person that's in an acting capacity. So that means that there are four people that are either at the rank of lieutenant or captain, as a minimum, under those conditions. And then you have one battalion chief that responds. And if, in fact, there is followup information to indicate that somebody may be trapped or somebody says that somebody's in the property, then we would dispatch a medic unit. If in those followup phone calls the indication is that the fire is of such magnitude that it may require more of a response, then we upgrade to a full box response, which would require the addition of two more engines and at least one other battalion chief. 40 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 And it depends on what is given from that particular situation in terms of feedback information from either the first-in officer who gets there, describes the conditions. Example. You know, 1234 Market Street, two-story occupied brick dwelling, 8 by 45, people trapped. Anything like that 9 could trigger other responses. 10 And it depends on the extent of the 11 fire and the followup information in terms of 12 what is transmitted through our radio system 13 as to what else would happen from an automatic 14 standpoint. 15 If the fire was of such magnitude that it was extending to the contiguous properties or any other property causing a problem, then we could have automatic upgrades based on it. And from there you get a deputy chief, and then the decision is made whether or not you need to expand your group of people who are there to extinguish. So anybody that gets there first can get on a radio and ask for help based on a 41 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 description of what they have. What we do is, have somebody get on location, usually it is the first person that is due. They usually get there in a prescribed pattern based on what our knowledge is of a particular area. So, in other words, if there is an engine company that is right here, and there is another engine company over here, but the fire is, like, closest to that engine that's who is first in. That person gets there, they describe whatever the situation is. The battalion chief, who may or may not be a part of that station, may come from here, they have a tendency, since they are in a smaller vehicle, to get there probably first. And they describe what's going on and what they want to happen. If it is the first-in company that gets there, they give the commands over the radio. You know, "two and two," means two engines, two ladders, we got it, we are this, the other company is proceeding in standby. 42 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Or they might say, "one and one," or some jargon that is well known and recognized within the first department in terms of what we have. If there is a person trapped or any special information that people need to be aware of, that information is then transmitted over the radio at that time. Then to get down to what happens from an investigative standpoint, whenever possible the Fire Marshals like to do what they call run on something that's hot.

In other words, while a fire is still going on, they go, try to get a look at it, talk to the personnel that are on the scene, so that they can ask the questions that are real simple and straight-forward. What did you see when you got here, where was the fire when the first company got there, did you have to make forcible entry. All of those kind of things are done in terms of what goes on almost simultaneously as they start to get in a position to do an investigation of some kind. 43 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 So it goes all the way from the first-due company that has the ability to transmit information and get anything done or asked for, until such time as we get people of greater rank on location that then lay out the fire ground in such a way that we can prepare for any kind of eventuality. An example of that would be, fires grow in magnitude. I just described to you what a tactical box would be, with the two and two and the first-due battalion chief. A full box would be four engines, two ladders, two battalion chiefs, and in some cases a deputy chief. Once that has escalated, it depends on where in the city it is, it could go for a larger amount of people, depending on what the procedures are for that particular thing. And then you can go for greater alarms. When it gets to a certain point, of course, I get notified on a second and usually go on the third. And there is a procedure that lays it out for almost everybody. Bob, as an example, would go on any 44 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 fire deaths, would go on any explosions, or somebody in a command position would go from his office that would be able to facilitate all of those things. So it starts out with the most elementary thing and then it grows from there. And there is a procedure that we have that is well documented and written out in terms of our response to fires. I hope that answered at least some of yours questions.

Yes, it did. Generally under what circumstances would the Fire Department request assistance from other departments or agencies to investigate a fire? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: When you go back to the written testimony that I was going over, if you have a response to almost anything, you get the police. If you have something specific, where the Fire Department has responded and you are going to investigate a death, as an example, or serious injuries, you will have, 45 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 depending on what the circumstances are, somebody from the Police Department there. And then we can get detectives based on a phone call. I would just say to whoever the incident commander is from the police, we want to get the detectives. If it is a death, you automatically get detectives. And then they start, based on information that we feed to them, with an interview process that takes us wherever it takes us. They do interviews that help in the process, feed the information back to us. Same time we feed the information back to them. So in the case of the police, it is relatively recognizable almost all the time. In the case of the Medical Examiner's Office, in case of a death, they get notified, they make a decision whether or not they are going to come out and take charge of it at that time, or whether or not the body is then removed by way of police and then 46 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 taken to their offices for further examination.

Commissioner, are there any written procedures or protocols that set out when and how assistance of this type can or should be sought, or is it just understanding -- COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Generally speaking, what happens is that procedures go back and forth depending on what the needs are of the department in terms of what we are trying to accomplish. But there is one thing that has become very, very steady in all of these things; not just in our department, but in most departments around the country. Most people who are in this investigative business recognize that there needs to be a standardized kind of procedure in order for you to investigate fires appropriately. So we go by 921, NFPA 921, which is a consensus standard which lays out exactly what should be done in terms of how you go 47 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 about conducting an investigation. So we follow that standard. And there is very little that needs to be written aside from that. It is generally accepted, we are using the 2001 version of it at this point. And it really lays it out, tells you what you need to do, and how to conduct a comprehensive investigation. That comprehensive investigation can take many legs. It depends on what it is. We have assigned to our office two lieutenants that work routinely on long-term investigations with ATF. So we may, on any given occasion, because of their ability in terms of having a very good and comprehensive lab and because of their ability to provide information to us and help with interviews, we may decide in any given case to activate that and then have them come. And we make use of whatever their skills are, and we get a determination as to whether or not we would be better in terms of 48 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 a prosecution to go through the federal side, provided it needs that, or whether or not to give it to the District Attorney's Office.

Thank you, Commissioner. I want to yield to my colleague Frank DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Councilman Ramos. Good afternoon, Commissioner. And let me first start off by saying that I have a couple of questions. But before I get into them, I just want to commend you and your department and the Fire Department of the City of Philadelphia and to the Police Department, if I am not here when the Police Commissioner testifies later today. I have no malice, no motive in my questions to point any fingers. I am not on a witch hunt to cast dispersion on anyone or any department and to suggest that there was something that relates to the incident in 1997 that in any way, again in my opinion, to discredit the department. That's not the purpose of any of my questions. 49 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 When a fire occurs and the fire personnel arrive on the scene, and people in the community, relatives, members of the household, not everyone has been accounted for -- I can recall an incident, a friend of mine several years ago. Five members of his family all died in the fire, two children, three adults. Seven people actually lived in the house. We knew that one of them was safe because she was out of the house at the time. We weren't sure about the sixth person. Subsequent to that, we did find the sixth person, the little girl, came home late that night. So, for all intents and purposes, all seven members who would normally occupy that residence were accounted for, not knowing whether there were guests there in addition to the seven. But we knew most likely that everyone was there should have been there, or at least had been accounted for. What happens when it is brought to the fire personnel that there may be someone 50 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 who is left in that house or may still be in that house that has not yet been either accounted for or has been able to get out safely? Is there a procedure that the department uses? Because earlier in your testimony, in response to Councilman Ramos' question on the language barrier issue, you testified about some sort of a search that goes on. I think you were referring to if you are not fully able to understand what the people outside were saying, there is an intensive investigation or search that goes on within the premises. So I am trying to find out, is there a procedure, if I say, "I think there is still one person left in there," what would normally occur? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We keep going back until such time as we can determine that everybody has been removed. And that is routine regardless of what the language is. All too often people don't know who is even in their household. And it is 51 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 extremely common for somebody to not realize that somebody is going out. If you have four, five people, particularly if they are young adults, the kids may go out and play, the kids may decide they are going to go and drive someplace or something like that, or somebody has moved the baby, all of those conditions happen. We teach people, early warning is important. We also teach them that they must learn to escape. And what we say is, get out and stay out. And we tell them that one of the most important things that they can do is, when they get out, not only to stay out, but to have a family meeting place. People don't always do that. So some people exit from the front, some people exit from the back, the side, out windows, and everything else. And what they don't do is have a tendency to go to one location and make sure that everybody is accounted for. Sometimes somebody doesn't know that 52 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 somebody is down the street or otherwise. We do whatever is necessary to account for those people. So we will go back and do what we initially do, which is a primary search. And then we do secondary search, we do third searches.

We search as much as we have to to make the determination as to whether or not everybody has been evacuated. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. You also testified, you spoke about, remains being brought, I believe, to the Medical Examiner's Office for identification. What happens in the case where what may appear to be remains, subsequently it is determined that what was appeared to be remains is not the remains of any person? What happens then? Is there a report to that effect? ) COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Obviously this is a touchy subject, so I really can't answer that particular question. 53 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 However, you may want to save a similar question for the Medical Examiner. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. No 5 further questions. Thank you.

I have a similar question as yours for the Medical Examiner a little later. At this time I will yield to Councilman Cohen, please.

Yes. Thank you for yielding. I'm not sure exactly why. But I am trying to find my place. I think your statement, Chairman Ramos, was excellent. My difficulty is, in this case there was a problem of a missing child at some point in mind. And the child was discovered not to have been incinerated, so the child must have gotten out safely. That, to me, seems to end the case as far as it being a Fire Department investigation. The gentleman explained very carefully how important the Fire Department regards the issue of making sure everybody got out. And one thing that seems clear in this 54 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 case is that everybody got out. And that's a strong affirmation of what you said. Now, whatever else is involved in the case, it does not appear to me to be a Fire Department or -- whether it is the Police Department, we don't know. Because that other investigation, or the other investigations taking place have just really begun, and nobody knows. And what I am concerned is, why do we sort of make it appear that we are trying to hide things? Because that's how people will look at it. For some reason Council refused to get involved in the issue. Why do we have this hearing at this point? I think it is great news, and it was great news, when the child was found. In one sense it is a real live miracle. And the Fire Department did a much better job than the Fire Department has been taking credit for over the last six years because the child did get out. How it was done, nobody knows. It might be, you know, one of these stories that circulate. Maybe it was arson, maybe it 55 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 wasn't. But it seems to me the Fire Department is pretty clearly vindicated. But, in any event, if that's not the case, or anybody is fearful that's not the case, it seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that this hearing ought not to extend beyond having made it clear now what the process is, because I really don't know what we are investigating. And, as a lawyer, I have always thought the government's responsibility has to be to the people of Philadelphia. I think it creates a bad impression if there is an indication that we are not testifying because we are trying to save the city money or save somebody from prosecution by the District Attorney, if there was any basis for prosecution. Nobody knows that, and nobody knows what the facts are, and we may never know. My suggestion, Mr. Chairman, is that I see no purpose to this hearing because the Fire Department, the one thing we can say is that, the Fire Department's main purpose was carried out, even if it didn't know it. 56 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 I mean, sometimes we do good things without knowing it. And not only the Fire Department, other departments, and each of us as individuals. So I would like to suggest that this hearing be terminated. But if in the opinion of the Chairman or some other opinion, then I would like to be excused. I find it very difficult as a lawyer to participate in a process in which there are these limitations. I don't know whether the City Solicitor is right or not. He had a very difficult choice to make in advising the different parties, and it is a very difficult case to be in. But I would certainly not want to be part of what appears or what is given to the public as an investigation, when it is really not an investigation because it can't be under these conditions. And that's the reason I applauded the Chairman, your statement made it very clear at the outset. And I think you did 57 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 achieve this one purpose, you have made clear that there was a procedure, and that the procedure was followed, and maybe even achieved a better result than those who followed the procedure knew. Somehow or other, apparently, the child was saved and wasn't, you know, burned in any way, incinerated in any way. Because the child now at 6 seems, from pictures I have seen, totally healthy.

But, in any event, I will go with the Chairman. If you choose to continue, I would just ask to be excused from the rest of the hearing. But my advice to the committee is, I don't think it serves any purpose of any Philadelphian to proceed with what some people are going to think is an investigation, when it can't be an investigation. It was a tragic occurrence. We are all doing our best, we are all going to be looking for ways to make sure that nothing like this ever happens. But we don't know now enough facts to make any determination. 58 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04

Thank you, Councilman Cohen, for your opinion on this matter. I just want to remind my distinguished colleague that from the onset of my resolution, it was very clear, even before we were advised of a criminal investigation going on, as well as the possible civil litigation, that in fact it is a public interest. That we know that there are general processes, procedures, and protocols used by the Fire Department. And that conducting these hearings, that we will learn what those processes, procedures, and protocols are. Because questions concerning that incident of 1997 has asked precisely these questions that have been asked by the public. Do we have proper procedures, processes, and protocols. In light of that, Councilman Cohen, I respect your opinion, but I think that there is still some value to continuing these hearings. Thank you. 59 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04

May I ask to be excused?

Yes, sir. Whatever. You are a senior colleague around here and I am a freshman, so I am not going to say no to you. Thank you.

The City Solicitor is trying to figure out should they suggest not having a hearing at all, and then be accused of having a cover-up, or should they try to protect the areas they talked about. So I think it is difficult for everybody. And I think the people here have shown their full sincerity and their interest to shed as much light as possible, considering all the convolutions we have to deal with in this case.

Thank you, Councilman Cohen.

Mainly it is great to know the child is found and is well.

Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you. 60 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Commissioner, since we are only talking about process, I would like to ask you a process question. You described to the Councilman the efforts that the firefighters take to try to locate someone that is alleged to be at a fire location. Let me frame my question this way: You have a house fire, someone indicates that there is a missing person in that property. After the fire is extinguished, the person is not located. I would like to know what the Fire Department does to determine that the person was not incinerated at that fire. What forensics, what laboratory work, what do you do to determine that at a particular address people, neighbors are saying, there is a person in that house, the fire now is out, can't locate the person. What does the Fire Department do, who are the experts, Medical Examiner, Fire Marshal, how do you determine whether or not the missing person was in that fire? 61 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 (Commissioner Hairston confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I want to be careful in terms of answering this question for you, but I would like to be as responsive as possible. It is, like, real obvious, Councilman. You know, if they say a person is in there, we go in and check it out to see if we find anybody. If we don't find anybody, we go through an interview process with as many people as necessary to find out whether or not the guy has flown to Jamaica or whether or not they are someplace else, staying overnight with their girlfriend, or whatever it is. And we do everything we can to get from credible witnesses where the person is.

What technology do you use? Now, if a person was supposedly asleep in the house, a person, senior citizen, whatever, the person is not there, the person didn't have travel plans to Jamaica, the 62 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 person is not there. What does the Fire Department do? Explain to me. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I just explained it to you, Councilman. We go in and do as many searches as necessary to find out whether or not the body is there. If the body is there, it is obvious to us. If the body is not there, we do interviews, we find out where the body has been moved to. You or I are not going to be incinerated in a fire. You or I are big enough as to where that wouldn't happen. So, therefore, we, through interviews and through examination of the scene, make a determination as to where that person is.

So you are telling me that an adult would never be in a situation to be incinerated that they could not be detected? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I think you are getting awfully close to the edge here.

No, I am not. I 63 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 am here asking a question. Just say you don't want to answer the question. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I don't want to answer the question based on the advice of counsel. I can't.

Let's go back to the process. Who helps you determine the facts, the scientific facts, at a fire scene? Explain to me, when do you call the Medical Examiner? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We call in the Medical Examiner if we have a report and we believe, based on interviews and based on what we see, that a person has been burned in a fire and they have died in the fire. And, based on that, that's when we make a determination to call the Medical Examiner.

Have you in your career ever seen a person totally incinerated? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: We follow 921. If you read 921, it will tell you all the things that we do. And whether or not I have seen it personally is really not the 64 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 issue.

You are the Fire Commissioner, you are the only one we can talk to. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I understand that, Councilman. We are trying to be as responsive as we possibly can. The guidelines have been laid out and agreed to. And I think to pursue this further is sort of like beating a dead horse. I can't answer you any clearer than I have made it for you so far.

Commissioner, you are being very matter of fact with me, and I understand. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I don't mean to come across that way.

What I am trying to ask you about is your 39 years of experience. If you don't want to share that with me, based on what you have seen and what you haven't seen in your 39 years, that's fine. But you are not serving this committee well, 65 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 at least this member of this committee, by not answering about your personal experiences. If you are being guided by counsel, I respect that. But I don't respect it if you are just dodging the question here. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Councilman, you have known me for a long time. I don't dodge anything. The fact is I have been advised by counsel what questions I can answer, what questions I can't. And I respect that. And I hope you respect that, as well.

I do. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: So, therefore, I think we should probably talk about something else that I can be responsive to.

Commissioner, in all due respect, I am a member of this committee. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: And I respect that.

And I have the authority to ask the questions I want to ask 66 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 you. You then have the ability to lean to your counsel and decide whether or not you answer the question. I know what I do at this end, Commissioner, and you know what you do at that end. Thank you. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Okay.

Any other questions from the committee? I turn over the chairmanship to the Chair of this committee, Councilwoman Miller. THE CHAIRWOMAN: I have a followup question to Councilman Rizzo, but I think I want to ask it of the Medical Examiner.

Concerning the Fire Marshal, does any unit within the Fire Department other than the Fire Marshal's Office investigate fire scenes, or is it -- COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Not in the real sense of origin and cause. However, we have a code unit that may on occasion be called either by me, the Command Fire Marshal, or someone in the Fire 67 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Marshal's Office to help make a determination regarding any code issues. So from that standpoint, we use the code process in terms of some portions of the investigation.

Commissioner, personally what capacity does the Fire Marshal's Office have to interact and communicate with nonEnglish and limited English speakers at fire scenes and during investigations? I think you have already touched earlier on on the fire scene. How about during the investigations? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Any time this is needed during the investigation, if it is in an area where you have a high concentration of nonEnglish-speaking people, we either go through the Police Department or we have someone in the Fire Department who happens to be able to communicate in that particular language. If it goes beyond that, to outside of that scene, and it is necessary to arrange 68 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 for that, usually that can be done through the Police Department or it can be done by going through the fire communications center. And they have a phone number where they can get any kind of language, and it can be done very easily that way.

Commissioner, once an investigation has been started, who has the authority to close it? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Fire Marshal.

Only the Fire Marshal? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, the Fire Marshal brings it to me. And if it seems like it is complete, and he answers all the relevant questions. And I have never had the occasion to say to the Fire Marshal, go back and do more. So I would say I accept his determination in terms of anything regarding origin, cause, and circumstances.

Once an investigation has been closed, can it be 69 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 reopened? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Absolutely.

And how? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Anybody can reopen an investigation based on new information. If new information exists, the Fire Marshal has been very responsive in terms of collecting that new information and will, at any given time, give full value to that new information, whether it is through interviews, whether or not it is through any kind of physical evidence. And he is just very responsive that way. So any investigation where a determination has been made -- and that was one of the things that I actually read off in 921. That explains that that's possible for that to happen. When that happens, you go back and re-examine the facts as we know them. And a determination is made as to whether or not it is enough to change a determination as far as the origin, the cause, or does it enhance 70 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 whatever the circumstances are. So you can change it any time he gets new information.

Does it happen often, Commissioner? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Almost never.

Almost never. Under what circumstances do they happen? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Usually if somebody has directly set a fire, and then we get a witness, you know, that may come in and give us some information that we didn't have. But usually, and probably with 99.99 some percent, the determination made by the original investigation, investigator, simply remains.

How many times in the last four or five years have you had to reopen a case or requested, have you been requested to reopen a case? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Bob might want to answer that. Because my recollection 71 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 is that we opened a case, it was about years old or something. FIRE MARSHAL ROBERT RUFF: Yes. On occasion, over the last four years that I have been the Fire Marshal, we have reopened a few cases. Some of them were the original cause of the fire was an incendiary device. And, as a result of the reopening, we developed a suspect. And in a case, one case, it was 13 years old, we aided in the prosecution of the 14 person responsible, and that person was 15 convicted of murder. And we have been requested to reopen some cases -- I shouldn't say, "reopen." We have been given subsequent information on maybe a half a dozen cases. The information was such that it didn't rise to the level of -- it wasn't credible, and we couldn't proceed any further.

And you make those determinations by yourself, or does the Police Department play a role in determining 72 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 those cases? FIRE MARSHAL RUFF: Most of the cases are involved in civil litigation, where there is a subsequent investigation by private investigators and their interest is in a particular litigant, and they come forward and offer some information. And we review it, and we always act on it. But in recent history, in the last four years, we haven't changed any cause as a result of that.

Thank you, Mr. Fire Marshal. I am done with my questioning of the Police Commissioner and the Fire Marshal. Representative Cruz, I see you have your City Council light on.

I thought because I wasn't a Council member, that I wasn't going to be heard.

Representative.

I have three small questions. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Did the gentleman 73 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 identify himself for the record, or had he done that earlier? FIRE MARSHAL RUFF: My name is Robert Ruff. I am a deputy chief in the Philadelphia Fire Department. And my present assignment is Fire Marshal for the City of Philadelphia.

Mr. Commissioner, I wanted to ask you a quick question. Who conducts the investigation first, the MEs or the Fire Department in the case of a fire? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Well, the ME deals strictly with what the cause of death was. The Fire Marshal makes a determination as to what the origin of the fire is. And the origin, as an example -- I mean, you have a house. Did it start in the living room, the kitchen, or where did it start? That's what we mean by the origin. The cause is usually determined through starting at the least burned area, and going to the most burned area. 74 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04

Okay. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Once that happens, then we get into the circumstances. In other words, the toaster overheated or whatever the appliance was malfunctioned in some way, or something like that, or the person was smoking. Those are the kind of things we are talking about by saying the origin, in other words, where did the fire start; the cause, what was the situation that happened that actually caused this event to happen when it did. It didn't happen yesterday; it happened today, in other words. So what was different about today or these circumstances that caused that to happen? So it is the origin, the cause, and then the circumstances. And that's done strictly by the Fire Marshal.

Is it procedure to have quotas of bilinguals? And when I mean bilinguals, not only Latinos, Asians and other languages, within the Fire Department that has 75 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 to be hired in your process of recruiting new cadets? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: No. The only perceived quota that we have is one that was made by me and some of my predecessors, who felt very strongly that, based on the growing population of Latinos, that we needed to use that as a selective factor. And, so, therefore, we use it as a selective factor, which allows us to get Latinos in. We don't have a preponderance of other people that fall into that category, but we do recruit. And when we recruit, we try to recruit for as many people as we possibly can that would in some way reflect what the community looks like. But since they are not accepted as a selective factor, you have to go strictly down the list, based on all the things that Civil Service provides. And, therefore, depending on where you are on the list determines your rank in terms of when you would be hired. 76 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 So although it is a great desire, we are able to use selective factor for Latinos, or Spanish-speaking people, who pass that, regardless of what their ethnicity is. But the other once are really up for grabs in terms of how we get them in. And we try very hard to recruit, but you have to remember the nature of the Fire Department. If you look at the Fire Department and you look at the makeup, there is an -- I think in the last class that we had, which we graduated 73 cadets, 47 percent of the people that were in that class had relatives or past relatives in the Fire Department. It is passing it on. It is strictly legal. And the encouragement is for a person who wants to be in the Fire Department to first of all join the military, get your ten points, become a veteran, and then take the Fire Department test, and that's how you get on. Aside from that, the way we get people is, we have people who work for us who have friends in the community and who see this 77 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 as a good job opportunity, and they pass it on that way. And we try to make that available to as many people as possible. However, when we get into recruitment, we have somewhere between and 7 12 thousand people that try to get in the Fire 8 Department. And if you are not a veteran, you 9 stand little chance of getting in. It is just 10 the way it is. And, basically, as you would expect, if Bob has a son who he wanted to get in the Fire Department, Bob is probably telling him the answers of what we do. They put out a booklet which describes what you do in the Fire Department. It is all part of the thing. We advertise it. The Personnel Department puts it out so everybody can study it. And it is however you fall on the list after that.

Okay. It is something that Council and us legislators need to look into. And I was going to be rude and talk to you in Spanish, just to let you know how 78 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Luz Aida felt that night and the need that we need in all branches of public safety. But I wasn't going to go there. I didn't want to disrespect you in any form. But that was a comment. And I also agree with Councilman Rizzo and Councilman Cohen that we shouldn't have had these public hearings for procedures. We needed to get to the facts to see where the problem occurred so we can address them for the future. And we have not gone to that level. So I just wanted to make that comment.

Point of order. Commissioner, in reference to policies and procedure, in large organizations they know where the bilingual people work. They don't necessarily need the work, and I will use the example of our city. Have you coordinated with the Police Department? I believe we have Spanish-speaking police officers that may work in other parts of the city, or you may have firefighters that work in the Northeast that might be bilingual. 79 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 If you had a situation that there was a language barrier, couldn't you ask police radio to send an officer from another part of the city to the scene to act as an interpreter or have a battalion chief pick up a firefighter that would be at headquarters or in a location that would not compromise his assignment here, his or her assignment, a paramedic? Have you got that created yet, where you do those kinds of things? COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I have described to the degree, that I can, the procedure that we have for having people who are bilingual to you. I am going to try to go back over it. And since you used the specifics of Latinos, I will tell you that when we started this process, there were five stations that we specifically recruited for so that we could get Latinos into those stations that were in areas that are heavily concentrated by Latinos. We have since expanded that to at 80 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 least ten stations. We have Latinos that are working all the time. It is very unlikely that we would have a scenario in an area where you have Latinos where we wouldn't have more than one or several Latinos who, not only from an ethnicity standpoint, represent the Latino community, but they speak the language, as well. So that is routine for us. We worked very hard on that over the last certainly 12 years that I have been the Commissioner. So we don't have to, in the specialty for Latinos, have to deal with the Police Department on that, although they are there and very helpful to us in that regard. However, we have people that are there first on the scene, are part of the makeup of the companies, that are there, you know, in any fire that occurs in those areas. And the same thing when it comes down to the paramedics. So we have firefighters and 81 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 paramedics that not only are Latino, they also speak the language, and are certified to speak it.

I heard you say that. But what I am asking is -- and I am not limiting the language barrier to a Latino community. You could have an exchange student, you could have a person visiting the Far Northeast that's Spanish speaking. My question is simply this, have we gotten to the point wherein that you could move a Spanish speaking or a Vietnamese speaking person to the scene of a fire to be able to assist the people on site that do not have the ability to communicate with a person? Do you have those abilities today to be able to do that? We are here trying to discuss policy, we are trying to talk about how to prevent a tragedy from occurring, and I think this is a very appropriate question. If it is not being done, take my suggestion and consider it. That's what we 82 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 are here to do. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: I have an appreciation for your question, and I have tried to be responsive in terms of answering it. So i am going to try one more time, and hopefully we will be able to communicate effectively regarding that. If we have the need, it almost invariably is clear when we are on the fire ground based on the fact that we see what we see. The fire is there. We go in, we do an examination to find anybody that may be in there. If we need to communicate, we can usually do that right on the scene based on either response from the Police Department, response from somebody that works for us, or somebody that we will utilize in the community. Because most fires are kind of innocent. If it requires anything beyond that, we have the ability to make a phone call to our communications center, which has a number that they can call for any language specialty. 83 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 It almost never is evoked because it is almost never a necessity. However, that exists for us, if we need to do it. If we run into anything that is complicated regarding the investigative part of it, that requires conversation about what's going on, we are able to do that through accessing things through the Police Department.

Thank you. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: You are quite welcome.

Councilman, can I finish my last question? My last question was, I wanted to take this opportunity and let you know that we are not attacking anyone, the fire, police, or anyone. We are just trying to get to the grass roots of how can we change procedures, that's all. And feel free to use me, as the Police Department does, to put in and recruit officers all over City of Philadelphia. So I am extending a hand out that if you need to use my office or myself to help 84 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 you recruit Latinos in your department, feel free. And I thank you again for your cooperation. Thank you. COMMISSIONER HAIRSTON: Thank you. And thank you for your offer. I will tell you that I would accept anybody's help in this regard. I am very open to it. I believe that the Fire Department, as well as other city agencies, ought to be reflective of the community. And I have worked diligently to try to have that happen. However, there are certain barriers that exist based on the things that you have to follow in Civil Service. And, so, in order for to you change and be more effective in terms of your desire as stated, you may want to look at that area. However, at any given time if you can be available to us to give us information or to help us recruit, we accept it, and we accept it gracefully.

Thank you, Representative Cruz. This committee and this 85 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 City Council, after we presented the resolution a few weeks ago, have an obligation to the people of Philadelphia to hold these hearings. The one thing we did not want to do was cancel these hearings. Because at issue was not just what happened or didn't happen in 1997, but in fact if there were procedures, protocols, and processes in place to make sure that hypothetically things don't get unanswered. And some of those questions have been addressed here thus far. We still have the Medical Examiner that will be coming before us and the Police Commissioner, and we welcome you to stay with us this evening, if you so care.

I will be back.

I am done with my questioning of the Fire Commissioner and the Fire Marshal. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Does anyone else on this committee have any questions of the Fire Commissioner? 86 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Seeing none. Thank you. Thank you for coming in this afternoon to testify. Will the clerk please call the next witnesses up, please.

Can we please have the Police Commissioner, Mr. Sylvester Johnson please take the table, take your seat at the table. And at the same time would the Medical Examiner also accompany him at the table. THE CHAIRWOMAN: We are going to have -- and you can bring up anyone you want to bring up -- you just have to share the chairs and the mike. Good afternoon. We can start. Commissioner Johnson, we can go on and get started with your testimony. COMMISSIONER SYLVESTER M. JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am. Okay. Here today with me is Chief Inspector Blackburn, Chief of Patrol; and Karen Simmons, who is our senior legal person. I am Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson, Philadelphia Police Department. And good afternoon, Chairwoman Miller, members of 87 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 the Public Safety Committee, and City Council members. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to appear before you this afternoon and participate in the public hearings regarding the events of the Hurley Street fire on December 15, 1997. As you are aware, the Police Department was intimately involved in the open criminal investigation and prosecution by the District Attorney's Office of Carolyn Correa. Consequently, I am very concerned as to how any testimony or any information provided by myself or my staff may impact on this prosecution. It is my intent to cooperate on this issue and your committee in any way possible, given my obvious constraints. We are prepared to discuss generally any questions that you or your committee may have with respect to relevant Police Department practice, policy, and protocol, and deal with the interaction of the Police Department with the fire scene and emergency response investigations. 88 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 During fire and other emergency involvement joint action service departments, it is the policy of the Philadelphia Police Department to maintain order, set up barricade lines, control traffic, and aid movement of emergency equipment during fires and other emergencies. In cases where a person dies or is pronounced dead while police personnel are present, the Medical Examiner's Office is notified immediately. I hope this testimony and the documents I provided will assist you in your inquiry. Thank you. THE CHAIRWOMAN: We are going to ask the Medical Examiner to also give your testimony now, that way we can just ask questions back and forth of either one. Thank you. Please state your name.

Good afternoon. My name is Dr. Haresh Mirchandani, I am Medical Examiner for the Department of Public Health in City of Philadelphia. I have 89 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Deputy Health Commissioner Carmen Forrester and Chief Investigator David Quinn. You may have some questions for them, as well. I thank you for the opportunity for present my testimony today. The Medical Examiner's Office operates hours a day, 7 days a week to 9 fulfill its legal mandate to investigate and 10 determine the cause and manner of death in 11 sudden, violent, and suspicious death, 12 including all homicide, suicide, and 13 drug-related events occurring in the City of 14 Philadelphia. 15 I just want to briefly say what is a 16 cause of death and what is a manner of death. 17 Cause of death is how did a 18 person -- why did the person die. The autopsy 19 alone determines the cause of death. 20 The manner of death is how did the 21 cause of case came into being. An example 22 would be a person dying in a house fire. 23 That's cause of death will be if the autopsy 24 determines that the cause of death indeed is smoke inhalation, the autopsy will determine 90 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 that, the toxicology will determine that. Cause of death will be fire death or carbon monoxide or smoke and soot inhalation. The manner of death will depend how was the fire set. Is it an arson fire, then it would be homicide. If it is an accidental fire, then it would be an accident. Sometimes rarely the fire can be set by one self in order to commit suicide, then the manner of death is ruled suicide. We investigate about 56 to 58 hundred deaths annually in the City of Philadelphia. Approximately 50 percent require post-mortem examination. Other important functions of my office include a positive identification of all decedents. Number two, notification of the family members of a death, issuance of a death certificate, preparation of a post-mortem report for the justice system, and provision of expert court testimony by the forensic pathologist, there are five including myself in the office. We also release the decedents 91 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 effects to next-of-kin and requests from the public and medical professional and other insurance companies are answered. The Medical Examiner Office receives reports of death from various agencies, institutions, and individual; including police, fire, hospitals, and funeral homes and family members. Medical Examiner's Office is charged by law with the investigation of all deaths that occur in the City of Philadelphia. I give you some example. All deaths that occur as a result of violence or trauma, this could be either homicidal violence, accidental or suicidal violence. Regardless of the time elapsing between the time of injury and time of death, a person could survive a year, two years, three years, or five years, and if he dies from those injuries, it will be a Medical Examiner's case. There is no statute of limitations in terms of determining the cause of death. 92 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 We also investigate deaths that occur suddenly, when the person was in good health. Also suspicious death, all still-born, newborn, and maternal deaths. Unknown or unclaimed individuals are brought to the office, decomposed bodies, and finally deaths at fire location. Scene investigation. The Medical Examiner's forensic investigating unit, Mr. David Quinn's unit is summoned to the scene, depending on the type of death, and the scene investigation requested by the Fire Department or the Police Department, or the District Attorney's Office for that matter. Investigator or a pathologist will go to the scene of the death prior to removing the body, if it is determined that going to the scene is substantially assist the responsible pathologist in determining the cause and manner of death or will significantly assist in identifying the person, the deceased person, or notifying the next-of-kin.

The bodies are transferred, all 93 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 bodies from the scene of the fire are transferred, to the Medical Examiner's Office only after a person is pronounced dead. My office has jurisdiction over only dead people, deceased individuals. A post-mortem examination are performed by the forensic pathologist to determine the cause and manner of death. After completion of the post-mortem examination, the death certificate is prepared and signed by the pathologist and a post-mortem report is prepared. Communication occurs between the Medical Examiner's Office and various governmental agencies; that is, police, fire, Department of Human Services, and District Attorney's Office, and information is exchanged at the scene or by telephone or at the office conferences. All homicide, a copy of death certificate information sheet is faxed to the police. Forensic pathologist are available at all times to answer the questions. Now, just as far as the fire death, 94 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 of bodies brought from the scene of the fire. If the deceased individual or portions of the deceased individual, if you will, comes from the scene of a fire, most important function for a Medical Examiner or forensic pathologist is to determine what is the identity of that person, who that person is, or who that person was. Because very often the bodies are burned beyond recognition. We require, we get dental records. Positive identification is established by comparing anti-mortem, or before-death identification, of the deceased with the post-mortem identity of the deceased. Most commonly used are dental records. Fingerprints may be of no use because the body is burned beyond recognition, including the hands. We determine -- the next would be the autopsy itself, after identification. Most important question to be answered after that, was the person alive at the time of the fire or was dead at the time of the fire and somebody to conceal the crime 95 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 has set the house on fire and burned the individual. Autopsy can very easily determine whether the person was dead at the time of the fire or alive at the time of the fire by simple laboratory tests called carbon monoxide. If a person is alive at the time of the fire, and alive and healthy at the time of the fire, one will get a high carbon monoxide concentration in the deceased blood, establishing clearly that the cause of death was the fire and the person was alive at the time of the fire. If the carbon monoxide is negative, there is no carbon monoxide or soot in the respiratory passages, it will mean that the person was dead at the time of the fire. Again, there are two possibilities. Death can occur from natural causes, a person is dead from a heart attack, and the fire is set after that accident. The person is smoking or drinking, if you will, and in that instance a carbon monoxide. 96 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 In the case of a homicide, if it is possible that the person could be a victim of a homicide, and the fire is set to conceal the crime. In that instance, there will be no 7 carbon monoxide in the blood, there will be no 8 soot in the trachea or respiratory passages, and there will be injuries of the body accounting for the cause of death; a gun shot wound, for example. Post-mortem/autopsy reports are available upon request to the next-of-kin, after the cause and manner of death is established. The autopsy report can be sent to next-of-kin or the authorized agents by subpoena or by a court order. Post-mortem reports or autopsy reports are sent automatically by the Medical Examiner's Office to the following relevant agency: Homicide cases. If it is proven that the cause of death is the fire, and that a person was alive at the time of the fire, and that the cause of 97 RESOLUTION NO.

040195 - 3/29/04 death is attributed to the fire only, and if the fire is set in a suspicious manner, which would be determined by the Fire Department or the Fire Marshal, death would then be ruled as a homicide. Cause of death would be a fire death, a smoke or soot inhalation, and the report would be sent to the Fire Department and also to the Police Department and District Attorney's Office. So this is the basic function of my office. I would be more than happy to answer any questions. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. You ruined my day here when I saw you slide over there. Process. You are summoned to the scene of a fire. Before I ask the question, I want to confirm something that was said earlier by the Fire Commissioner. Have you ever seen an adult body totally consumed in a fire, where there was no 98 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 evidence at all? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Adult body, no, I have never seen. Adult body is never consumed completely in a fire.

You have never seen an adult totally consumed? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: In a house fire?

In a house fire. COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Generally there is always some remnants of tissue or the whole body in a house fire. Of an adult, one can find a body.

Now, if you got to the scene of a fire and you were told -- and, again, this is just process, counselor; I am not asking about this specific case here -- if you were told by the Fire Marshal or the commanding officer of the Philadelphia Fire Department that they suspect a person was in the building that died in the fire, would you have the ability to determine whether a human body died in a fire in a particular room or on a bed or on a couch? 99 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Do you have the chemistry capabilities to determine that? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: In lieu of my counsel, I think I would not like to answer any questions in detail about the body --

I am not asking you about a body. I am asking you, as a doctor, do you have the ability, your organization, the forensic ability, to, if somebody told you, and you walked into a room, and there was a bed totally incinerated, that a person died on that bed, as a physician, as a doctor, would you have the ability to tell? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Again, on the advice of my counsel, I will not answer the question. I cannot answer that question.

I am going to yield to the Chairwoman. 100 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 THE CHAIRWOMAN: Point of information here. I want to ask a question about 9/11 in New York. Is that okay? Do you know if they issued death certificates to the victims in the 9/11 fire in New York? I mean, for days they looked for bodies, could not find any, couldn't find any. So do they issue death certificates, do you know, to those families? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: No, I don't know the details of 9/11 fatalities in New York City. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. The intensity of heat in that type of fire, I guess, would be different than the intensity of the heat in a house fire because of the gasoline and whatnot from the plane. Do you know? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: The temperature would be higher in a 9/11 type of 101 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 fire than would be on a house fire. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. I don't know whether I can ask this.

They will stop you. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Did the family get a death certificate? Are there any situations where people don't get a death certificate? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) THE CHAIRWOMAN: In general, when are death certificates issued? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Yes. THE CHAIRWOMAN: When? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: In general, a death certificate is issued after the body has been identified, a positive ID has been established, and cause of death is determined, and the manner of death. A death certificate is issued, yes. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Councilman Rizzo.

I will respect your counsel's decision to not have you answer that question, so I will ask you another 102 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 question. Today does the Medical Examiner have the ability, do you have the technology, do you have whatever the proper terminology is, to determine whether or not a person died at the scene of a fire? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: We have the ability to determine whether a person was alive at the time of the fire.

No. I am talking about -- let me see. I have never asked this question before. There is a bed, there is a fire in a bedroom. They suspect someone died in that bed. Today do you have the ability to determine whether or not a human body was consumed in that fire? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.)

Come on, counselor. I just want to know whether or not he has that ability. (Commissioner Mirchandani confers 103 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: I cannot answer that question on the advice of my counsel.

Today. Not five years ago. Today -- tomorrow. Tomorrow could you determine, if a fire occurred tomorrow, if a human body was consumed in the fire? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: I cannot answer the question on the advice of the counsel.

Thank you, Madam Chair. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Councilman Ramos.

Yes, I have some questions for the Medical Examiner. But I know that our outstanding Police Commissioner has been here maybe a little longer than others, and I wanted to get some questions in for the Police Commissioner. Police Commissioner, generally where 104 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 it is believed that a death has occurred at a fire, what are the roles of the Medical Examiner's Office, the Fire Department, the Police Department in conducting that investigation, when the death has occurred at a fire? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: I think our main goal is to find out whether that fire was a homicide or whether it was a suspicious death and whether it was an accidental death. The cause of death is one of the main goals or main concern of ours.

From your experience, under what circumstances would the Medical Examiner's Office ask your department for assistance in investigating a fire scene? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Suspicious death.

To your knowledge, without detailing any specific information, has the Medical Examiner's Office ever contacted the Police Department for assistance in investigating any fatalities at fire scenes? 105 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

In the last few years, do you have any idea how many times you have been called in? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: I don't know the exact time. But I know we just had a fire death maybe about two weeks ago of a ten-year-old child in a fire. And any time there is a suspicious death, and we go on orders of the Medical Examiner that there is a suspicious death, we are contacted and we get involved in the investigation.

At this time what role, if any, does the Fire Department play in investigating a fatality at a fire scene? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: You mean the Police Department?

Yes, the Police Department. I am sorry. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: If the death was suspicious, if someone -- I think what the Medical Examiner, basically, said, if the 106 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 person was either dead prior to the fire or that the fire was of an arson type of thing, that this death was caused by someone else.

Commissioner, does the Fire Department have any written procedures or guidelines it uses when called to a fire scene? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: The Police Department does.

I am sorry. It's been eight straight hours here. Does the Police Department have any written procedures or guidelines it uses when called to a fire scene. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Yes, sir, we do.

Please describe those procedures generally for me. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Well, it really depends upon the alarm of the fire. Our main responsibility at a fire scene is to assist the Fire Department and really control the outer perimeter; traffic control, crowd control. Again, it depends on 107 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 the extent of the fire. If it is just a local fire, then we send one police officer, one car there. If it is a two-alarm fire, we send additional police officers there. As the fire goes up, we send in a supervisor, maybe captain and above, to the fire scene. It depends on the degree of the fire. But our main responsibility is to assist the Fire Department, basically, in crowd control and traffic control.

So you have almost always a presence at a fire, you are there probably all the time? Your men are doing and women are doing their job of traffic and safety matters. But it seems like, though, from 911 to the fire, correct me if I am wrong, when the fire is put out, that there is police presence? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: That is correct.

Can you provide a copy, can you please provide a copy, of those 108 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 procedures to this committee as soon as is possible, please? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: I attached it to my testimony. But if you don't have it, I will make sure you get another copy. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Councilman Rizzo.

Some advice that I have taken from our counsel. I have a question that I want to rephrase, and I hope we can get a response. Today, Doctor, do you have any written or unwritten procedures or protocols that would allow you to determine a body was burned in a bed or sofa, for example? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Repeat the question.

Today do you have any written or unwritten procedures or protocols that would allow you to determine a body was burned in a bed or sofa? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Whether a body was burned in a bed or sofa? 109 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Again, on the advice of my counsel, I can't answer that.

Thank you. THE CHAIRWOMAN: What is the process, you know, if I have a, how you say, a fire at my house, and I call the Fire Department, or I call the Police Department, and I think someone is dead, then who calls the Medical Examiner? Or are they on the scene? No, they wouldn't be on the scene, though, would they? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Well, hypothetically, normally, the first responder is the police, normally get to a fire first. If there is a fire there, then the Fire Department will arrive there and fight the fire. Again, our responsibility at that point is the outer perimeter for crowd control and traffic control. Once the fire is put out and the 110 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Fire Department has responsibility -- I am not sure where you are coming from. But it is the Fire Department responsibility would be to go in and determine whether there is anybody in there or not. And if there is somebody in there, again, it is taken to the Medical Examiner's Office. Based on the result of the Medical Examiner's Office will the Police Department get involved. THE CHAIRWOMAN: So what does the Medical Examiner do to determine that someone is dead? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Well, the Medical Examiner can speak for himself. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Right. I am asking. How do you determine whether someone is dead? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Well, the person has been pronounced dead first before my office gets involved. So we only take -- we only respond to the scene where a person has been pronounced dead. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Who pronounces a 111 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 person dead? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: It could be fire rescue person, it could be EMT, EMS person, or anybody who has knowledge about recommending a deceased person. By law it doesn't have to be a physician to pronounce a person dead. In certain circumstances it is pretty obvious that the person is deceased, dead, a completely burned body or a decomposed body, for that matter. Our recommendation to the Fire Department or the EMS people would be, when you are in doubt, if you are not sure that person is diseased or not, do not call the Medical Examiner, take the person to local hospital to be pronounced dead. And my jurisdiction, my office, gets involved only after a person has been dead or has been pronounced dead. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: My job is to determine why and how a person died, cause of death, after death of a person. 112 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 THE CHAIRWOMAN: So when you come on the scene, the person is absolutely deceased? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Absolutely. No question about it. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Thank you. Councilman Ramos.

This question is for the Police Commissioner, again on procedures. Mr. Commissioner, do those procedures that you referred to address how police officers should communicate at a fire or emergency scenes with nonEnglish or limited English speakers? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

Can you describe what are some of the things that it says in there, if you can? If not, can you, or defer to your colleague. CHIEF INSPECTOR WILLIAM BLACKBURN: My name is chief Inspector William Blackburn. I am Chief Inspector assigned to the Patrol Bureau. In terms of the language barriers, 113 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 there is a department all policy, Directive 6, that deals specifically with foreign language translation services. That service is available to Philadelphia Police Department up to 125 different languages and dialects. But, also, I would like to point out that there is approximately -- there is the rank and file of the police department speaks about 29 different languages. So in the event there was a language barrier at the scene of a crime, or at the scene of a fire, the supervisor at the scene could call police radio and have a member of the Philadelphia Police Department dispatched there that speaks that specific language.

And that's done routinely? CHIEF INSPECTOR BLACKBURN: That is done routinely.

If you were to cover 5th and Lehigh at a fire, and people are speaking, probably, Spanish, and you don't have a Spanish-speaking officer on site, the 114 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 supervisor will call central command? CHIEF INSPECTOR BLACKBURN: That particular supervisor would call 911 and ask for a particular officer that speaks that language. If there wasn't an officer available, then through the AT&T operator we would contact an interpreter who speaks that specific language. And that's all written out in departmental policy.

That was going to be my followup question. And is it the Police or Fire Department's responsibility to talk to family or witnesses at the scene to see if there is information relative to the fire they are fighting? I mean, do you have people on the scene that will talk to, or is that just the Fire Department's role? CHIEF INSPECTOR BLACKBURN: In the event that there is a suspicious death or an unnatural death or an accidental death, that 115 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 would trigger a response of a police supervisor. So there would be a police supervisor on the scene. And they would coordinate between the Fire Department and the Police Department any types of services or whether there was a language barrier. So there is a mechanism in place that would be responsive to that. The detective division of occurrence, when there is a death, responds to that scene. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: That's one of the things I wanted to point out that the chief mentioned. If it is a suspicious death, not only will the uniformed police officers be there, but there will be detectives that will be dispatched to the scene itself, along with a supervisor.

Thank you. I have a couple of questions for Dr. Mirchandani. Generally where it is believed that 116 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 a death occurred at the fire, what are the roles of the Medical Examiner's Office, the Fire Department, and Police Department in conducting that investigation? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: My role, the Medical Examiner's Office role, would be to identify the deceased individual, and there are various ways of identification; to determine after that identification of the deceased person; notification of the next-of-kin; and giving the cause and manner of death. And these are the main functions of the Medical Examiner's Office. Based on -- the cause of death, as I said, solely is determined by the autopsy, or the post-mortem examination. We also do toxicology not only to determine whether the person was alive at the time of the fire, we also will do toxicology to determine were there any drugs, alcohol or poisons present in the body.

Now, Doctor, how about if, to your knowledge -- and without going into particulars of any case -- within 117 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 the medical literature, professional writing, training materials of your field, has the subject of human remains being consumed at a fire scene ever been discussed? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.)

And I am referring to within medical literature, professional writing, without going into any particular case. Has the subject of human remains being consumed at a fire scene ever been discussed in your profession? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Yes.

Can you pick something, workshop that you have been to or in your training, what you can say about human remains being consumed at a fire scene? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Textbooks of forensic pathology mentioned those cases. It has been in the literature, in the forensic literature, that it is indeed possible for 118 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 human remains to be completely consumed in a fire.

Point of information. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Could you just hold one second.

Sure. THE CHAIRWOMAN: There are no more questions for the Police Commissioner. We would like to thank you for coming. I would actually like to thank everyone for being so patient. I know most of you have been here since 1 o'clock. But we will forward any other questions -- COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Thank you very much. THE CHAIRWOMAN: -- that we might have, we will forward them to you. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Thank you.

Can I proceed with my point of information? THE CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, sir, Councilman.

Doctor, so I 119 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 understand, you just answered the question to Councilman Ramos. Is there also literature, information, discussed at conferences, et cetera, et cetera, that would support or not the potential of a person dying at the scene of a fire that you would not be able to determine whether or not there was a person burned beyond recognition? Or what's the word I am looking for? Incinerated. Again, not this case, I understand the sensitivity of it. But in your world of science, at those conferences, would it support the fact that -- if a person died in a fire, that your science would be able to say, yes, absolutely, that a person died there? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Can you rephrase that question, please?

Has there ever been discussion or have you -- this is a tough question because I don't want to get bleeped here again. I am trying to make sure I get it 120 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 out the best I can. The question is, generally speaking, is there an agreement among the professionals and experts in your field as to whether or not it is possible for a human remains to be consumed in a fire? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: There is general agreement that the human body, a body of an adult human being, cannot be completely consumed in a house fire.

House fire? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Yes.

Cannot be consumed? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Cannot be completely consumed.

Cannot be completely consumed in a house fire? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Yes.

Based upon the fact that the intensity. Councilwoman Miller mouthed to me, 121 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 9/11, jet fuel, a very hot, different situation than a house fire. A difference between a house fire and an industrial accident would be the temperature that that fire could reach. Like a person when they -- what's the word I am looking for here -- when they are cremated, that's a very hot fire that would not be found in a house fire environment; right? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Yes. In a house fire a body cannot -- temperature that are achieved in a house fire, an adult human body cannot be completely cremated, cannot.

Generally speaking, what factors could professionals like you consider in evaluating whether a human body was consumed in a fire? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: The temperature of the fire and the age of the deceased.

So the size of the body would have some relevance? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers 122 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: I cannot answer the question. I cannot answer anymore question.

We did pretty good there. Thank you.

Doctor, do you and your staff agree with the scientific medical position that a body cannot be completely consumed in a house fire? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Body of an adult.

Cannot be. COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Cannot be completely consumed.

Do you and your staff agree with the specific medical position? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Yes, we do agree.

I have no further questions for the Medical Examiner.

Just one that kind of confuses me. 123 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 You just made a statement that -- could you just repeat that question one more time. You asked a question about a body being consumed in a house fire. And the medical examiner's answer was?

The Medical Examiner's answer was that a body cannot be completely consumed in a house fire, and he said that his staff agreed with this scientific medical position.

You are saying here today that a body could not be consumed in a house fire? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: Body of an adult.

So what is the difference between -- could you explain the difference between an adult and a person that's not an adult? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: I don't 124 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 think I can go any further. All I said, that an adult and a child is different. An adult body cannot be completely consumed in a house fire. That's all I can answer.

Can you explain why? COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: The age of the person, the bones, calcification in the bones. A children's bones are -- bones of a child are different, soft tissue is different. So there is a difference physiological makeup of a child and an adult.

So, then, are you saying -- and I don't want to put words in your mouth -- that a house fire could occur where a person other than an adult could be totally consumed? (Commissioner Mirchandani confers with counsel.) COMMISSIONER MIRCHANDANI: I cannot answer that question on the advice of the counsel. 125 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04

Thank you. THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Councilman. Councilwoman Blackwell, did you have any questions? Did anybody state that you were here, for the record?

Thank you very much. No. 10 THE CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. I don't believe that there are any further questions for this witness from members of the committee. And I would just like to say that we have, ladies and gentlemen, we have heard from a number of knowledgeable individuals this afternoon. In addition, we have very recently been supplied with a fair amount of documentation that is relevant to our concerns. It is my intention at this time to review today's testimony and documentation submitted to date. And we will reconvene this hearing at a later date at the call of the 126 RESOLUTION NO. 040195 - 3/29/04 Chair. Thank you. Thank you all for coming and thank you for your patience. (Public Hearing adjourned at 6:20 p.m.) - - - 127 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Monday, March 29, 2004, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY _________________________ DEBRA A. WHITEHEAD