What I would suggest, Mr. Fina, and I will now formally request is, if you could compile at least the job data for the last five years for all of your transactions, provide that to me as the Chair, which I will 152 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 certainly distribute to all of the members and see if we can get to the bottom of this particular issue.
'Cause there appears to be a disconnect someplace. Councilman Cohen?
Mr. Chairman, for probably more than 30 years, but at least 30 years, I have been trying to find out facts to support the notion of increased employment of minorities and women in the construction field whenever construction takes place. I started when the federal government introduced what then was a controversial so-called Philadelphia Plan. They picked Philadelphia as a place of maximum discrimination against minorities and women in the construction industry, and they tried to develop a plan, the federal government. There were two witnesses at a hearing in either 1969 or 1970. One was Councilman Longstreth, and the other was myself, from the Philadelphia City Council at that time. Councilman Longstreth opposed the Philadelphia 153 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 Plan, I supported it. Ever since that time, I have sought to get information like the kind that Councilman Nutter and Councilman Goode before were referring to, actual facts. Were I to ask this question, could anybody tell us how many new union electricians, carpenters, and the components of all of the building trades union, how many new ones have come in from the Philadelphia area, how many of them were low-income or minority or women? And how many are employed in these projects? With the blight program coming up, people in the constituency can't understand -- I've never be able to understand why, when there is a need for construction and there's so much unemployment amongst young people, why the two areas can't be combined so that the young people can develop the skills, go through the apprenticeship programs, get into union membership, and become full-time, tax-paying members of the community at the same time that we build so many things. Now, how do we get to the facts? We don't -- Mr. Fina, with due respect to you, we 154 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 don't think that the reports which say that nobody was defaulted; that proves that they, you know, met all of the goals. All that proves is that nobody paid any attention to whether or not they met the goals, and eyes were probably closed. Because I know of no -- when I go out in the community, I ask questions, how many people here know anybody in this neighborhood who is a member, say, of any particular construction union and who became such in the last five years? I never get a response. Now, what data do you have in your job information that you say you don't make us -- you give us the conclusions, but you don't give us the facts. We would we would like that kind of data. And with respect to Councilman Nutter's question, we would like that kind of data and the information Councilman Nutter from your job base. Would your data show that? In other words, how many more carpenters are there in the minority -- in the communities where there are heavy minority percentages? How many women have become union members in different places? And then we can then 155 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 find out from the unions about the various job assignments they get, because we get complaints at every level that nothing happened, nothing is made available, and that when in the neighborhood jobs are provided in particular construction assignments, the jobs are only provided to meet technical requirements, and that there's no 9 training that actually goes on at all. And Councilman Nutter, I would just like to suggest, I think it's very important that City Council have its own monitoring body, its own inspection team, and its own method of determining the facts so that we can, you know, meet on an equal basis with the other statistics given us, and then we can determine what additional enforcement methods are needed. And I think Councilman Clarke might feel that that is a useful purpose. Because this seems to be such a difficult area to deal with, when, on the surface, it seems like it ought to be very simple to deal with. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, 156 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 Councilman. (Applause.)
Let me just say that we will cooperate with Council in furnishing whatever information we have. That includes whatever information is being compiled right now across all of our economic development agencies. Whatever information Council wants, we would be glad to provide. If there is specific information that Council wants that we either are not compiling right now or are not compiling in a way that is useful to Council, then we will adjust our methods of compiling that data in order to be responsive. But there's no -- I mean, I'll just assure you on behalf of the economic development agencies and the Department of Commerce, there's no effort to withhold any information. If we're not gathering data that is useful for your purposes, then we will try to make adjustments so that we can do that.
Okay. Any other questions for Mr. Curato or Mr. Fina on Bill 157 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 000355?
Mr. Curato, there is this business on Susquehanna that has not gotten a TIF, but it's really growing, and it may increase or it will double, maybe even triple the amount of neighborhood employees that it now employs. And I asked you a few months back about it. They were planning, because they were being induced by Delaware County, and they were really considering that move because we could not provide -- and to me, it was inexplicable because with so much empty land around North Philadelphia, we could not provide for them the land that they needed. Where are we on that?
Councilman, my staff has followed your initial inquiry and a similar inquiry that we got, I believe from Councilman 158 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 Kenney. We have been working with this company on a weekly basis. My understanding is that we did find a site for their expansion plans. I need to get back to you with the most current information on that, and I commit to you that I will.
Okay. Mr. Curato, what I would like to do at this point, 'cause we're all going to -- and we have been here a long time, and I appreciate those in the audience still waiting to testify on Bills 180 and 181. We have a couple of logistical problems that we're trying to deal with here. I need to engage in some very quick discussion with you on the record about the amendments to Bill 355; hopefully we can reach agreement on that. And then what I would like to do is move into a public meeting to formally make those amendments; one Councilmember needs to leave and want to leave his vote in the meeting on that. We'll get those bills reported out and then come back into a public hearing to take testimony on Bills 180 and 181. And we'll go as long as we 159 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 can go. With regard to your recommended amendments, what I would like to do is read back to you what I'd like to do with those amendments, 'cause I'd either like to take all of what you have in some cases, chop up a little bit of what you have, and keep much of what was already in the bill. So I'd like to go through that. First, on the first page of the bill, I would agree to the deletion or the bracketing in Section 21-1403(1), the language would read: No 13 Tax Increment Financing District (TIF District) shall be approved by the City Council unless the ordinance creating the TIF District is accompanied by a statement signed by the City Finance Director. . . Brackets start at the comma and continue to the comma before the word "that." So it includes the comma and brackets right before the word" that. What that does is, it leaves the Finance Director in, it takes out at that stage the Controller and the Director of the Pennsylvania and Governmental Cooperation Authority. 160 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 Do you agree with that?
Okay, thank you. In number 2, I would like that to read: The project plan shall also include a statement that there will be an economic opportunity plan submitted for the TIF District and that the economic opportunity plan will contain: A. Detailed statement by the developer that addresses the developer's good-faith efforts to ensure that the projects shall provide for the maximum feasible number of year-round part-time and full-time employment opportunity to low- and moderate-income youth (persons under the age of 21) and a preliminary implementation plan for such youth employment goals. In addition, the economic opportunity plan will contain a detailed statement by the developer that addresses the developer's good-faith efforts to ensure that the project shall provide for significant. . . Delete the words "the maximum feasible number of" and continue with contracting, construction, and job opportunities, including, without limitation, goods, services and equipment to minority, female 161 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 and disabled business enterprises and individuals in a preliminary implementation plan for these employment goals. Any and all TIF Districts approved by Council after January 1, 1998 shall also be subject to the good-faith efforts requirements -- no, I'm sorry. Shall also be subject to these good-faith efforts requirements. And take out the word "the" and substitute the word "these" in that particular sentence. And the sentence would end at "requirements." So delete the rest of the phrase that continues with "that the developer shall use good-faith efforts." I believe for the most part, that captures most of the essence and spirit of what you have put forward.
The language containing the phrase "maximum feasible number," I believe you retain for the --
It was deleted for 162 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 the minority. The legal there is, in the minority, female and disabled business, as I understand it from the Law Department, that has a protected-class issue. You cannot have that particular language. The youth is not a protected-class issue and, therefore, the language is not objectionable, or raises a constitutional issue.
Okay. I -- the version of the amendment that the Law Department provided me did not make a distinction between those two classes. So I am not able to say with full confidence that -- I mean, I certainly take you at your word that that's your understanding from the Law Department. I just have not heard that directly from the Law Department and would only raise the issue that, just pending a legal review, we would --
I understand. Let me try to give you some additional comfort. What I'd like to do is report the bill 24 out. There are issues that Councilmembers have regarding another provision of the bill. I do not 163 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 expect to call the bill for a vote until we have that particular matter resolved. It's not a major issue; we'd like to tighten something. I'll look at the issue that you are raising. If we're going to have amendments on the floor, it's just as easy to make two of them as it is to make one. And we'll make sure that the language is correct.
Okay. And that would word fine. And I guess on the issue of the retroactivity, I presume I was not able to persuade you that imposing these provisions --
Mr. Curato, I will report back to the Administration that you fought a furious battle. Unfortunately, you were just outdone and you have nothing to be shamed of. It happens every day. (Laughter.)
Thanks. I don't want to be mean and point out the fact that even 164 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 your amendment coming up did not delete that particular provision. But, you know. And on the third provision, we will fully accept everything you put forward on that, which is, at the section in number 3, you have -- I'll try to cut to the chase here. It continues with the final economic opportunity plan. You inserted the language containing the developer's method(s) for implementation. We will add that. The sentence continues: Comma, the TIF District ordinance, and all other related documents. Your amendment deletes the rest of that paragraph. And I would be in agreement with that. Let me add one other thing addressing the issue raised in number one. I would propose to add a new number 4, which would read: The TIF project plan shall also be submitted to the City Controller and the PICA Board, and we will spell out PICA (Pennsylvania Intergovernmental Cooperation Authority Board) prior to any public hearing in order to solicit and receive their comments and analysis of such project plan. That then removes and addresses, I believe, but it does close the loop in terms of 165 COMMERCE, ECONOMIC DEV. - BILL 000355 their participation, but it does not create a barrier. Is that --
Thank you. Lastly, in response to a conversation with another Councilmember, I wish to amend Section 2 such that the effective date for this bill is January 1, 2001.
Move into public meeting take action on two bills then return to the public hearing is that acceptable?
Thank you. What I would like to do with the committee's concurrence is to now into a public meeting in order to deal with these amendments and at least take action on two bills and then return to the public hearing. - - -
We are now in a public meeting and we wish to take action at the moment on two bills. I'd first like to ask Councilman Goode 166 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING for a motion on Bill 000546.
Mr. Chairman, I move that we report Bill 000546 out of committee with a favorable recommendation and that the rules of Council be suspended so as to allow first reading at the next Council session.
It's been moved and properly seconded that Bill No. 000546 be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation and further recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session. All in favor, say aye? Any opposed, say nay? The ayes have it and Bill No. 000546 is approved. Councilman DiCicco, could I trouble you for a motion on the amendments to Bill No. 000355, as read into the record in the public hearing?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the amendments that were read into the record on Bill No. 000355 be 167 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING approved.
All in favor, say aye? Any opposed, say nay? The amendments are approved. Councilman DiCicco, a motion on the bill as amended.
I move that Bill 12 No. 000355, as amended, be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation and a rules suspension?
It doesn't matter, we've got a short calendar. I'll take the motion.
And that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of City Council.
All in favor, say aye? Any opposed, say nay? Bill No. 000355, as amended, will be 168 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation and a rules suspension. - - -
We will now go back into our public hearing. This is the Committee on Commerce and Economic Development. We will take testimony on Bills 000180 and 000181. Now, we have -- as is often our practice, I would like to -- in this instance, I would like to try to accommodate some members of the public who have been here for some time. I know the Administration people have been here for a while as well. I do not necessarily think their testimony will be as long as yours. And so I'm sure, at least with Mr. Applebaum, will cost me tremendously, but I'd like to get members of the public who have an interest in speaking on Bill No.'s 000180 or 000181 up to the witness table. I think Mr. Simon and other some individuals may be here to testify with regard to some of those bills. I'll ask the clerk to read the title of both bills.
Bill 000180, an ordinance 169 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING amending Chapter 17-900 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Neighborhood Benefit Strategy," by further providing for safe harbor goals. And Bill No. 000181, an ordinance 6 amending Title 17 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Contracts and Procurement," by adding a new Chapter 17-1000, entitled "Employment of Low- and Moderate-Income Persons by City Contractors," which requires persons performing work under certain construction contracts supported by City funds or City financial assistance to hire certain percentages of low- and moderate-income persons, under certain terms and conditions. (Witnesses come forward.)
Gentlemen, please identify yourselves for the record and you can proceed with your statement.
Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the Council, my name is Jahad Ali, I'm a union carpenter as well as I'm a member of UMEA and --
Can you bring that microphone a little closer to you, please. Thanks. 170 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING
I'm on one of the committees that monitor participation for businesses involved in construction as well as employment of trades people in the construction field. I'm also a member of the GBCA, which is a program that has been initiated last year by the General Building Contractors Association of Philadelphia in order to identify disadvantaged firms that can compete on all of these projects that you're talking about, because in the past, we've had businesses who were in business that didn't really have the support that they needed to (unintelligible) their businesses -- financial statements, backing, and forecasting. Go ahead.
John Thomas, business person in the City of Philadelphia. I am here at the request of -- good afternoon, everyone, the Chairman and City Councilmembers. We've been through this with the shipyard Kvaerner. I'm sitting here listening to really a lot of hogwash that's -- sorry, let me get Mr. Simon, who is the president of UMEA to introduce himself to Councilmembers. 171 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING
Good evening, Councilmembers. My name is John Simon. I'm the President of the United Minority Enterprises Association.
Mr. Simon, I need move that microphone a little closer to you. We have a new high-tech sound system, which makes it impossible for us to hear you.
My name is John Simon, the president of United Minority Enterprises Association. We've been in this struggle for about years with City Council, trying to get 14 minorities and women and neighborhood people into 15 the construction industry. Our organization was 16 one of the organizations that introduced 17 legislation to Councilwoman Blackwell, that got 18 passed, Chapter 17-500, to help minorities get 19 contracts in the City. 20 And I have a panel here of committee 21 workers that have been working for about seven years now in their areas of trying to get minorities on City contracts. And I think you will hear some of the things that they will address to you. 172 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING Thank you.
Before I start on my tangent, I'd like for Jahad Ali, because he's the most civilized here than I am, so I defer to Mr. Jahad Ali.
I would just like to say I'm more calmer now as I get older. The one thing I wanted to mention is the history of UMEA and John Simon. Ten years ago, when all of this construction was in its heyday, one of the biggest supporters for the minorities, or the only supporter for utilization of minority businesses was John Simon. When there was a court challenge, as we know it today, the (unintelligible) decision, when they initially challenged 17-500, it was UMEA's efforts that intervened on behalf of our members to fight that case. One of the things that resulted from us, our intervention in that case, was that although we lost that case because of Judge Bechtel's (ph.) Decision, the reason why we lost it was because the City doesn't have a disparity study. And in all of these efforts that you're undertaking today, you need to have that as 173 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING a basis for whatever decisions you make. And one of the things about UMEA's effort is, we're always in last, we're always invited last, and we're the first out there fighting, and sometimes, we're the only ones fighting. And you need to know the road that you're embarking on -- I'd like to use Councilman DiCicco's words "but for" today. But for your efforts, black men, black women, Latino men, Latino women are out of the construction -- would be out of the construction field. We know very well -- I know from my own eyes and my experiences that white men, white women will be utilized. You have to use that word "minority" to establish firms. "Minority" is white women. So you have to be aware of that. But going forward, I think that you need to be commended for your efforts because you're the same people that I see in the neighborhoods when I'm riding to the store or going wherever with my children, and the people that are out there now looking for employment, it's really ironic, because, as Councilman Cohen said, there should really be a marriage of the 174 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING youth that we have to be employed and the construction industry, because the construction industry is one of the only industries that doesn't have -- that has a worker shortage. So why isn't that marriage happening? Because of old people holding on to old ideas and old traditions. There has to be a barrier between getting our youth in these programs. One of the things that came out during the trial was Dr. Burn from Atlanta testifying that what happens is, when we bring youth into these unions, they advance in age, and years 14 down the road, they are businesses. So -- and 15 because a man more than likely or a woman more 16 than likely will work for a firm and say, I could 17 do this on my own after I've gained 20 years of 18 experience, and they go out on their own and they 19 start a business. 20 So that's really what the issue is. They're stopping our youth 20 years earlier from being their competitor 20 years down the road, which you hear all the time out there. So I think that the things that all you distinguished members are trying to do will make a 175 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING great impact on employment of Hispanic, black men and women in the field. It will make a difference in the neighborhoods because when you push for black businesses, you can almost assure that black businesses hire black workers. If we are working in the neighborhood, then we are going to be able make our own money. And we can start one day -- hopefully, one day, one of these young kids out there can start, be a worker, be a developer, and be sitting right here with you or your children, discussing a TIF that they want to do. So all of our efforts are really based on a great foundation and I think you guys need to be commended.
I'd like to add something to what you just said. In 1984-'85, when the big boom of construction began in the City, and it lasted ten years, and now we're going through another one, we were told right there in that caucus room by construction unions and the building trades and the developers that we didn't 176 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING have any African-American contractors and we didn't have any Latino contractors. Therefore, that was one of the reasons why, in terms of contracting and subcontracting in the big jobs, in terms of the Convention Center, the Marriott and all of the hotels that were being built, we could not have a minority presence, we were lacking. It was an excuse, obviously, it was an excuse. Now we have not only African-American contractors, we have an association of African-American contractors, we have an association of Latino contractors. But we still can't go through the door, we're still not getting the contracts. And, in fact, it is making the new regulations that are being structured make it even more difficult for minority contractors to compete. So instead of making it easier for competition to evolve, it seems that we -- as we get to another level, then we make it more difficult to be able to compete. Before, it didn't matter; we didn't have the contractors. Now we have the contractors, so the rules change. And the rules seem to change every time 177 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING we become eligible to play under the old rules. So under the old rules, we used to be able to compete at neighborhood levels. Now in the new rules, it makes it a little bit more difficult for minority contractors to be able to compete, and it seems that that's the process that we're going. And now we have a huge construction going on, and the data that we keep getting from RDA and OHCD, and we're putting money into -- and this is not the big developers, this is not big developers, this is not about building the Hyatt or building one of the newer hotels and so on. This is about projects that are going on in the neighborhoods and then we find and we get a data and we look at it, and most of the individuals that are working in those projects, 72 percent over here, 65 percent over there, 56 percent over here, they're all from outside of Philadelphia. And the amount of contracts, obviously, is very small. And they usually make it so that they just meet the minimal criteria that we set forward. And it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be this hard. It should not be this difficult. And we and David -- David was speaking 178 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING about his history, going back to 1968 and the Philadelphia Plan and the federal court, and we're still talking about the same thing. And a whole new generation of people are sitting around this table. And years down the line, Darrell Clarke 7 will probably be saying, you know, why hasn't it 8 happened? Like I'm saying right now. Because I 9 asked those questions back in 1985, and I'm asking 10 those questions again. 11 You know, and it's got to change. We 12 got to be able to put it into legislation and we 13 have to demand it, or else nothing gets built 14 really. 15
Councilman, may I just answer 16 that. 17 One of the problems that we had, we can 18 see it, at least in my opinion. One of the 19 problems is people that were in Council didn't 20 know what was going on because it was designed for you not to know. Let's look at reports. We just heard PIDC say they weren't even giving you reports. So the people that elected you were saying, My man is letting me down, what's happening? You hear it on 179 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING the radio all the time, why aren't blacks participating? Because you have a thousand and one other things to do and you're thinking that the program's working, and it's not. I think you need to look at who sits on that board at PIDC, I think you need to look at some of the ways that PIDC can assist developing contractors. See, the unions, their position is, they really only care about those man hours. They're -- basically, they care about man hours for now. It's our directive to make them hire our people, to get our people -- black men, Hispanics, women, disabled into those unions. And when we do our job, it will make it easier for other things to happen. One thing I wanted to just mention to the committee was when you get this data, try to get it in an electronic format because it's going to do you no good and us no good if he brings over boxes and boxes. But we have CPAs, just like they have CPAs, and we can put macros in those Excels. To find out what we want, we can create our own data bases. 180 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING So I would just advise the committee to get all of your data in electronic format if you can.
I, in fact, know what's been happening out here because I was a staff person a long time, I've worked with you, you've done work in my district, and we've sat down and suffered the same levels of frustration. You came into the district, you wanted to hire neighborhood people, you hired neighborhood people, and you were told that these people weren't in the union, so they had to go. This is a shell game, this is a shell. 'Cause a developer comes in and he says he wants to do the right thing, and he meets with Mr. Marks -- I'll use him as an example, God rest his soul. And he promises him he's going to do the right thing, all right? And he goes out and he gets his general contractor. And the general contractor says he's going to do the right thing, all right? And they go out and they get the subs. And the 181 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING subs say they're going to do the right thing. But it seems like the right thing is never done, because when those contractors and those subcontractors say that they're reaching out to neighborhood people, they're being told that you have to have certain kind of neighborhood people. From both ends, all right? From the people in those communities, they want certain types of people, and the people and the business agents from those various trades say you got to get certain kind of people. They say you got to get union people 'cause they have membership in the union hall that need to work. And we have people standing on the corner that need to work. So we end up at an impasse because we're then restricted with this thing called "prevailing wage," which is a good thing, 'cause I support prevailing wage. But what ends up happening with this prevailing wage, it means union. I mean, let's stop kidding ourselves. 'Cause if people are going to do prevailing wage, they're more than likely going to have a union contractor, and that's a good thing, because I'm very supportive of 182 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING unions. But the reality is, our inability to access trades across the board has been abysmal. You know, and I don't know whose fault it is. I can't say that here today. And I think it's all of us from, you know. The political end, maybe we haven't been aggressive enough. You know, from the community end, maybe people haven't gotten themselves prepared. From the union end, maybe they haven't been open enough, you know, in making sure these people can pass those apprenticeships. So, you know, I want to commend you guys for being here years. I can say to my 15 friend and colleague Councilman Ortiz, I will not 16 be here 20 years from now asking this question. 17
And I will not be 19 here 20 years, I can guarantee that. And it will 20 be by my choice.
No, I just won't be here; I will be doing something else. But it's at a point, I agree with all 183 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING of you gentlemen and my colleagues, it is time to cut this crap, all right, let's be up front. We all know what's going on, right? And I have had an opportunity to talk to a lot of people in the union, they are my friends, all right? And I'm not going to get around that, they are my friends. We have had discussions, I've talked to Mr. Roundtree about the issues. I had a meeting last week with all of the business agents on a project at 17th and Poplar Street, 42 units that we're getting ready to build. And they've expressed a willingness to participate, but they talked about having being able to have people who are appropriately trained to get into the apprenticeship program. You guys got to help put us in a position where we can provide those people and Mr. Round and my colleagues, because we want to do the right thing from this end of the table, and I know you want to do the right thing, and we got to make people who say they want to do the right thing do the right thing, all right? So we'll be here with you. 184 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING I agree with you, Councilman, when it's time for reelection, I, like you, would like to be able to say that we resolved this issue, maybe not a hundred percent, but to some level that we can feel proud of.
All right. So thank you. So we're going to be here with you and we're going to do what we have to do. And, again, I say I've talked to a number of my friends who are in the trades, and they've expressed a willingness to work with us, all right? So we will see, all right? This is the new generation, and we'll see what happens. Councilman?
I just wanted to ask, do any of the gentlemen at the table remember Bill No. 649 in City Council? That was the first legislative attack we attempted to make to open up the construction industry to minority folks. And we had a great campaign running. It went on for several years. We didn't make it, but I think we 185 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING may make it now. I would like to see -- you know, I want Darrell Clarke to have to do what Councilman Ortiz predicted, but that will happen unless -- unless we decide we're going to change it, unless we reject the notions. You know, all of us in Council have had different people tell us, if there are any particular minorities or even a group of minority you want hired, we'll hire them. But that's not what we want. We want a process whereby everybody can access the skills that we need to carry out this construction boom. And our first responsibility has to be to minorities, young minorities in Philadelphia. And I think if there's this close cooperation we can do it. And women, and women of color, yes, I think they face different problems than white women, but white women also face problems because they're women. And I think we want to clear it up for everybody. There's got been to be a free, open playing field so that we can then accuse them 20 years later, as developers, we can insist that 186 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING they treat the next generation the way we want this generation treated. Thank you very much.
Can I just say, Councilman Cohen? We'd like this to continue too, but we want to be involved. In fact, we want to go one step further. We would like to enter into a business arrangement with Council to let us be one of the ones to provide a proposal to assist you with the monitoring. Like I had said earlier, we have CPAs just like everybody else. We can work in a joint venture relationship with any firm to do this monitoring. But you get one advantage: because we're in this business, just like you're in the political business, we're in the construction business. And when you have your meetings, you have to have people at that table to be able to handle whatever comes up. You just can't be at a loss because decisions are being made at the table that you people sit at.
I think you're absolutely right. I think you've got to be involved in the monitoring phase and in every 187 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING phase of this. And only when you're satisfied will we know that the job has been done.
Yes. I'm looking at the new faces on City Council of whom some I've met. Blondell Reynolds Brown, I'll start with you. You took over Gussie Clark's seat; that's highly commendable. You're a young, fresh brain, face, entity. You bring a certain vitality, obviously, or you would not be sitting at City Council's sessions, you would not be a City Councilperson. Gussie Clarke is my heart. I want you -- and I told you this when I met you over the Christmas holidays, that I expect a lot out of you. Darrell Clarke, I have not met yet; I have seen him, you know, we've physically seen one another. Wilson Goode, Jr., we've seen one another; I don't know you personally. I've only talked to Blondell Reynolds Brown. I'm a maverick. You see this gray hair? It didn't happen overnight. I have possibly a young-looking face, but I turned 57 in September, okay? And the life expectancy of an African male, we know what these figures are, so 188 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING we don't have to go there. But I'm saying all of that to say that I've been fighting with these guys for a very long -- I've been fighting a lot of battles for a long time, and. I don't have that much time. I hope I do, you know, I hope I'm able to be around to the age of 100 really. But, realistically, I don't know. But I'm saying all of this today, that I have a daughter who will be in December. The 12 younger group here, I'm quite sure, Goode, Clarke, 13 you have children. We want something for the 14 future of our children. My heart is bleeding 15 sitting here, being redundant, listening to the 16 crapola, the B.S. that's been going on for the 17 last 30, 40, 50 years. 18 I mean, how much longer is it going to 19 take for people in positions of power, people who 20 have authority, people who are delegated responsibility, people who are being vast sums of money to expedite programs that are in fact not being done? There are overlays and overlays and overlays of federal bureaucracy from the federal 189 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING level to the State level to the City level, and then you have all these certifying agencies that sit on their rear-end -- you know, they're obviously sitting on their thumbs, you know, doing nothing, shuffling papers, trying to look important. You know, what the heck are they doing? What is anybody doing, in fact, to get anything accomplished? so that Darrell Clarke, 30 years from now, won't be in a position that Dave Cohen is in 30 years later. I mean, we have the experience as a group to fight these battles for you people on City Council, if you let us come to the negotiating table with us instead of letting us know a day before this is supposed to happen, that you're invited. That's not the way to treat your friends. We're your friends, not your enemies, okay? Make us a part of what goes on in getting people like PIDC responsible. Let us be an oversight part of monitoring what they do in fact or do not -- and it's obvious they're not doing the right thing, but they are being paid vast sums of taxpayers' dollars to do. I'm quite sure they have their favorite people that they deal with. 190 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING They all do. The Old Boy Network, you know, that club at the top that everybody alludes to, the Old Boy Network is still alive in the year 2000. We don't play golf with contractors at the exclusive country clubs; we're not invited. If we do, it's to be a caddy, okay? We're not at the private chubs in Center City where the white contractors go and discuss deals. We're not at the Mainline homes when deals are being done. Black contractors are not there. When we get invited to bid on a job --
Exactly, it's already been decided. The dollar amounts -- the money has already been parcelled out to this good old white boy here, this good old -- and we talk about minority -- we talk about white females as being a minority? Oh, no kidding. Well, guess what, their uncles, their fathers and their grandfathers say, You are a minority because you're female, here, you own the company, and now there's 51 percent stock, okay? And that has happened, and 191 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING they've gotten City contracts, they've gotten State contracts and federal government contracts, and nobody's called them on the carpet, and that's a bunch of crap, and I'm here to tell you it's a bunch of crap today. And City Council is sitting here and think that white women in America are equal to being considered minorities? Then somebody needs to go back to school and get some more lessons on what's going on in corporate America because that's not the way the game is played. Kvaerner Shipyard, we fought like the devil. We were here, UMEA, the United Minority Enterprise Association was here to make sure first on the front line, to make sure that minorities -- we wrote up all kinds of legislation, just like this packet here that went out to all of City Council from our newly-elected Mayor Street, who I happen to love and respect and like him, to every -- a few of you responded, and here's some more copies today. We were here on the front line challenging, prodding, pleading, begging, asking, praying that some of these dollars would come into 192 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING the African-American community. Well, guess what? It never happened. Not one time did anybody allude to anything -- everybody came up out of -- the chambers were full. By God, they were full. But the deal had already been -- City Councilmembers didn't even know what the they were passing, pardon my vernacular. They passed a bill 9 that allocated the money and didn't even know what it was for or who it was going to or for what purpose. These are the elected officials that we -- oh, well, I didn't know. Well, I said I was in on this, okay? I am not trying to humiliate anyone in City Council, believe me, I'm not. But I am bleeding from my heart for every minority person in this city. And I have a list of contractors, I have letters from contractors who -- let just read you something here, and I'm not going to go on and on and on because --
Let me say this, and I apologize for missing some of your 193 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING statement. I have some other material that I'd like to share. To the extent that you have documents or letters, I mean, if you can, one, give us a flavor of what they are about.
All of them can be added to the official record today, and Councilmembers will be able to read them.
A general contractor saying that we can't find minority contractors, subcontractors, et cetera. Then we get, when they do and are able to find some, they get a $100,000 contract, of which a percentage is supposed to go to a minority contractors. He goes on the job, he's assigned a certain amount of work, he needs a certain amount of people. Let's say he's required to do -- and I have one here. Five floors in a hotel.
Based on his cost analysis, he only needs two men, but the general 194 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING says, Oh, no, you need five men. So he's got to hire three more, okay?
He's got 90 percent of the job completed. Every two weeks, he's supposed to be paid because he's got to pay his personnel, he's got the pay the unions their money. And the union is like La Cosa Nostra, we all know that. You know, they're going to get theirs.
You have a right to say what you want to say, but I'm not going to accept any disparaging remarks --
I just want to go on the record myself because I'm friendly with the union workers and some of the management. And I want to just say that that was his frustration coming 195 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING out. But I agree with you, Chairman, that the union are outstanding individuals and they're in business like everybody else, but that's just his opinion.
I understand. And you're entitled to opinion and I'm entitled to say that I'm not going to accept that kind of language in the record.
Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, as I was saying, these are noble European, Eurocentric contractors dealing with minority contractors, who will say one thing and change up and do something completely different. They put more minority contractors out of business. You might as well take an AK-47, an Uzzi, and just spread the John Brown things -- I 196 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING mean, it's like having an army with all the sophisticated military weaponry going up against people with sticks. And that's what it amounts to.
I think we're at a stage, though where-- and I can -- normally, you know, people might say, "I can understand your frustration." I'm not going to say that because I can't necessarily understand your frustration because I'm not in the same business that you're in. But I think we do have a sense of what the magnitude of the problems are. What would be helpful to us is a couple of things. One, we do have a couple bills here pending that are trying to help improve the situation. Two, it would be helpful to this committee, if not to all of Council and the government, to have a sense not only of the frustration and the problems, but also suggestions for solutions as to what we should be doing. Now, I do feel compelled to mention to you, there were statements made while I was out of the room, and a complaint, legitimate, was made 197 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING about short notice. I will take responsibility and accept the fault for short notice to Mr. Simon. On the other hand, you may or may not be aware, these bills were introduced on March 30, 2000.
They were duly advertised for this hearing. I had a meeting with Mr. Simon and another gentleman during the summer to talk about minority contracting issues, and gave them copies of these bills during that time.
So we are trying. And there are more opportunities for people to contact, whether it's myself or 16 other members of City Council, about these particular issues. And one point: I have not heard a word since March 30, 2000 other than a separate conversation, separately driven by issues that Mr. Simon and a group member wanted to talk about, I haven't heard from one contractor about either of these bills.
Mm-hmm. All right, be that as it may and I respect -- 198 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING
So could you share with us a couple ideas about what you'd like to see us do in the government?
The key thing, Councilman Nutter is -- and we've been asking for this for a very long time. We need UMEA with you guys. We would like to be an integral part of sitting down and being on your oversight committee, sharing -- because we come from the contracting base, not from a 40-year City-employee base. You got to have contractors that will tell you who know, who've been out there and getting their butts kicked.
And let me tell you, if you don't do that, you know what you'll get? You'll get that one person who says, Oh, I've been working with this City agency and I know what guys are going through out there. And you'll get 199 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING another and one another one, and it's going to be ongoing nonsense.
Councilman, one thing I wanted to just mention was, sometimes other people who are your agencies will -- they will make a statement that there's a conflict of interest for UMEA to be on any oversight board or any committee. However, they don't make the same argument when the unions are being put on each one of these boards. So you just need to keep an open mind. And all we really want to do is, by being on the boards at those times, we can address whatever's on the table then. But in coming here today and talking about the bills that are coming up, the things that I wanted to add was on the -- I believe it was on Bill 180, where you have -- anywhere on the bill you have low-income, that you have it addressed to the project area. I believe it was 181, I think 181, somewhere in there? I think it's 181, Councilman. It's article 6.
Are you talking 200 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING about within the definition of low- and moderate-income person?
Right, that it be specifically for that area. You cite here HUD. They cite 42 UFC. However, this bill mirrors Section 3. And one of the things that makes Section 3 so unique when it's enforced is that it ties into the project area, because their loophole is that a person could be low-income from anywhere in Philadelphia, and we really want to benefit the people that are in the neighborhood where the project being funded.
So if you can just at least specify that it be from that neighborhood or the adjoining neighborhood stepping out.
Mr. Ali, if you want to tie it to that particular neighborhood, and this hotel is being built over here, now it doesn't fall under that bill, and I've got a problem with that. We've accepted minority, low-income employment in neighborhoods and we're now going off of the bigger picture. I disagree with you on that. 201 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING
Well, I don't know if we're in disagreement, Councilman, because what it's saying is, either the adjoining neighborhoods, stepping out. What's the next neighborhood closer to this neighborhood in each direction stepping out? We're talking about hirees and businesses, because all of -- these jobs, these bills are not -- they're not employment guarantees. You have to have businesses or individuals capable of those skills or those businesses capable to fund stuff. And I was in court five years ago. And when I looked around, I mean, I know what the GBCA is going to do, I know what the unions are capable. I know the arguments that their lawyers will put forth, is what I'm trying to say. And one of the problems we're going to have is, you have to have people with the ability to perform, and you can't get it by just putting a blanket thing there. If you don't say specific neighborhoods, then the flip side, is what brings the unions coming in saying, Oh, we got all these guys from the Northeast, they're low-income.
Fine. All I'm saying is, I don't want to be tied down to some 202 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING project at 16th and Cecil B. Moore, and that's what happens.
We end up fighting over that with the building and trades unions about two or three jobs at 16th and Cecil B. Moore, all right? And when I see the employment opportunities down here on all of these hotels and we don't fight for that, I don't want to get tied into 16th and Cecil B. Moore, I want to deal with a policy that addresses the entire city.
Adding on to Councilman Clarke, if I may, Mr. Chairman?
I mean, I think it limits us. Let me tell you something, when we say "low-income" and" moderate-income, between African-American and Latino, we represent probably 70 percent or more of that. The Supreme Court and other federal courts say that we cannot use race in that sort of situation. The issue is that labeling, low- and moderate-income, puts into play. As Councilman 203 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING Clarke says, we have the Convention Center, we have the airport, we have hotels, we have Penn's Landing. All of these are construction jobs that contractors should be bidding for, sub. I don't want -- I don't want you guys just to be able to bid on a project at 16th and Cecil B. Moore or Fifth and Indiana in the Barrio. I want us to be able to be subcontractors across the City and be included. And we have to make sure that you and Latino contractors are included across the City.
See, that's what you should be asking us to begin putting forward, that we ensure a process in which Latino and African-American contractors are included across the City. And, therefore, we begin then, through you, employing Latino and African-Americans from the neighborhood.
Gentlemen, let me make this recommendation to you because actually, even shortly, I will have to leave. I think that your testimony has been very, very helpful. We have representatives from the City government, 204 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING some of whose testimony might be a little different than yours, and I think we need to hear that testimony and better understand what some of the issues are, complications, and the like. And I would then expect that we will recess this hearing to a date certain. If we don't finish all of the testimony today or if finish the testimony, we may have actions that need to be taken, amendments that need to be put forward and a whole host of other things. So what I'd like to do at this point is get the City Representatives up so we can get a sense and a flavor of their testimony, get some Q and A going with them as well, and make sure that we're going in the right direction, okay?
Gentlemen, thank you very, very much. I appreciate it. Why don't we get Mr. Applebaum, Mr. Roundtree, and Mr. Brooks to the table. (Witnesses come forward.)
Gentlemen, you've been patient with us today and we're going to ask 205 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING you to continue to do so. This is what I would like to suggest, with the acceptance of the committee: One, I know you all have written statement. You'll submit them to us and we will read them. Two, there was a statement provided, or reference made to a letter by one of the gentlemen testifying that was sent to the Mayor. I have copies of that letter, which I'd like to give to you. And, three, what -- I think you probably anticipate that this portion of the hearing could go for a little while because there are going to be a lot of questions. We're not going to finish. What I'd like you to do then third is, understanding the issues that were raised by the gentlemen at the table earlier, I'd like you to be prepared to not only respond to questions that are going to be raised by your own testimony but also by the letter to the Mayor and by their testimony here today at a continued hearing on November 1st, at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. That will then give you time to 206 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING respond to all of those issues. I think, Mr. Roundtree, I know, in your testimony, there was some issues raised about a particular component of one of the bills. You and I had a sidebar discussion. I think at the moment, you don't have a proposed solution to that problem. Councilman Ortiz and Councilman Clarke, I know, had some side decisions about some provisions. We also had time to address those particular concerns as well. Mr. Brooks, I think we've had this ongoing discussion in the past about your reports, which are now, I believe, are now responding to not only the previous executive order but also a bill passed by this Council on your reporting requirements on various projects. What I would like for you to be able to respond to specifically, in addition to any other things that are in your testimony, is to give us a better understanding of why, in many instances, these projects that I'm looking at, your latest report of July 3, 2000, Amoco, McDonald's at Haines Street and Stenton Avenue, 53 percent of the people working on the project were 207 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING non-Philadelphians, and a whole host of other projects that are up in the 40s an 50-some-odd percent range of non-Philadelphians participating in all of these neighborhood projects. I would like detailed information as to what the problem is, why this continues to go on, and any recommendations that you might have for addressing that particular problem. Councilman Ortiz may have additional requests.
Yeah. Could you add something to the same request. As we get that there are certain individuals -- a certain high percentage of individual working that are non-Philadelphians, I'd like to find out the breakdown of the Philadelphians that are working, you get me? I'd like to find out, of those that are Philadelphians working in those projects, how do they break down in terms of ethnicity and race? I want to find out how many are African-American, how many are Latinos, how many are women, Asian or whatever. So if we have 50 percent that are non-Philadelphian, I'd like to find out the 208 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING breakdown of the 50 percent that are Philadelphian. And then, if you can, I would like to have that breakdown by skill level. How many are laborers, how many are carpenters, how many are electricians. And a breakdown of those in terms of how many of those are Latinos, African-American, and so on. Got that? COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Yes, sir.
Any other information requests as we are anticipating recessing to a date certain that will provide the government officials, Administration officials with the opportunity to be very responsive? Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I ask that, I guess, Mr. Roundtree from MBEC be prepared to respond to the status of -- I believe it was Bill -- it was a bill -- an ordinance in September of '99, Bill 23 No. 990221-A. That was a prevailing wage bill. And the subsequent amendment, Bill No. 000319, requiring that all participating trades set up a 209 10/24/00 COMMERCE, ECON. DEV. - PUBLIC MEETING training and apprenticeship and placement program. And it referenced several programs that are currently in effect; one of them being the Housing Authority and Congreso, top win programs that will be feeder systems into the various trades cross the board.
You want me to be prepared to respond to that on November 1st?
No problem. Any other information requests in suspicion of the continued hearing? (No response.)
Seeing none, the Committee on Commerce and Economic Development will stand in recess until Wednesday, November 1st, at 2 o'clock p.m. Thank you. (Adjourned at 2:08 p.m.) - - - 210 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Tuesday, October 24, 2000, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BILL NO.'S 000355, 000546, 000180, 000181 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter