COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC MEETING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, October 19, 2000 2:05 p.m. - - - Bill 000537 - an Ordinance amending Chapters 10-100 and 10-600 of the Philadelphia Code relating to animals, individual conduct, and the use of public and property by adding to Sections 10-101, 105, 603 and 10-606, the prohibition of dog fighting. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ, CHAIRMAN COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 I N D E X BILL NO. 000537 GREG FOX, ------------------------------ 6 LYNNETTE SCHAEFFER --------------------- 16 7 STEPHANIE AAMES ------------------------ 26 8 OFFICER JOSEPH HULMES ------------------ 34 9 OFFICER PAUL BRYANT -------------------- 52 10 RANDALL HIRSCHHORN, Health Dept. ------- 60 ERIK HENDRICKS, SPCA ------------------- 64 - - - 3 P R O C E E D I N G S
The hearing on Bill 3 000537 of the Public Safety Committee, having a quorum present, will now begin. Councilman Darrell Clarke, Councilman Cohen, Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell, myself, the Chair of the Committee, Angel Ortiz. Could you please read the title of the bill?
Amending Chapters 10-100 and 10-600 of the Philadelphia Code relating to animals, individual conduct, and the use of public and property by adding to Sections 10-101, 105, 603 and 10-606, the prohibition of dog fighting.
Very good. The main sponsor of the bill, Jannie Blackwell, has an opening statement, plus we have some amendments that we will consider later on. Jannie.
Thank you very much. Good afternoon. A few weeks ago we introduced Bill No. 000537 in response to growing frustrations by my constituents over the seemingly rise in attacks on innocent people by vicious dogs by the police who are in harm's way when responding 4 BILL NO. 000537 to complaints and by the SPCA who wrote us last spring and complained about the issue and asked for help in dealing with this problem. We note by way of background that on October 15th, a Sunday evening, two men in Maple Shade, New Jersey, tried to help a 12-year-old being bitten by four dogs. The boy suffered several puncture wounds to his legs and dogs bites. On 9/22 pitbulls attacked Tarika Lindsay and her 10-year-old in Tacony in their own yard. The woman and her 10-year-old daughter had severe bites. Police had to shoot and kill two dogs. On 7/25 two pitbulls ended up in surgery, and the two Philadelphia men who owned them were charged with cruelty to animals after officers broke up a dog fight in Overbrook. When police responded, five people were gathered around two fighting dogs. One had the other in its jaws. The dogs continued to fight after the arrest. On 7/17 a letter carrier, Margarite Ashley was delivering mail to a house in Southwest Philadelphia when two pitbulls burst through the screen in the front door and attacked her. And on 7/13 scars never go away for 5 BILL NO. 000537 little Greg Fox. We thank his mother, Mrs. Schaeffer, who is here today because of this 12-year-old who was mauled by two pitbulls and he faces years of pain and humiliation, not to even mention medical bills. Three days after the dog fight was raided where two officers made arrests, the SPCA raided an abandoned house on Cosgrove Street near Belfield and Germantown where they found chains dangling from a ceiling from which animal baits were being used and hung to try promote dog fighting. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, between 1979 and 1996 pitbulls have been involved in 60 fatal attacks. In preparation for dog fights, animals even suffer tremendous torture. They are dehydrated, starved, beaten, forced to walk and run while leashed to weights, constantly provoked and encouraged to attack other dogs. Dog fights take place in residential neighborhoods, in alleys, playgrounds, and even school grounds after dark. As part of an urban youth culture, some have even been promoted in a movie, a movie called 6 BILL NO. 000537 "Fresh," and by gangsta rap artists, and these fights are even attended by children. Since preparing for this legislation, we have heard from victims of dog attacks and neighbors of illegal dog fight venues where they have to hear growls, tearing of flesh, whelping, and final silence night after night, afraid to call the police often for fear or retaliation. Pitbulls have been the primary focus of media and general public because of recent attacks and the fact that they are bred for fighting. Many individuals, unfortunately, train their dogs to be vicious as a form of protection, particularly among drug dealers during the '80s and '90s during crack deals in our neighborhoods. Mr. Hendricks from the SPCA and others would like us to ban pitbulls by 2020, and maybe so; but today, the State law prevents us from doing so. To ban pitbulls would mean that we would have to ban all dogs. This is unreasonable and fails to address the larger issues which is that current animal laws are vague, can be misinterpreted, and are difficult to enforce and absolutely fail to specify humane standards of animal treatment and care. 7 BILL NO. 000537 My colleague, Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller who couldn't be here this afternoon, through her vicious dog task force and myself for the introduction of this law, are attempting to establish precedence for the type of laws that need to be added to increase public safety and to protect dogs also from mistreatment.
Finally, Bill 000537 clearly states that dog fighting is illegal in the City of Philadelphia and owners caught participating will be penalized. It is my hope that through raising the consciousness of many that dog fighters will think twice and that we will see the incidence of dog fights and attacks on humans decrease. Specifically, Bill 000537 will create a new subsection in the law to define the issue, dog fighting. It will make dog fighting illegal within City limits. It will give the police the authority to issue tickets, $150, to suspected dog owners and property owners on dog fighting calls. If the ticket is not paid within 10 days, a $300 fine will be levied. The bill also addresses dog fighting as part of gambling rings, of gambling competitions. 8 BILL NO. 000537 Even when a person tries to intimidate another person through threatening to have his dog attack, the bill will apply. We have tried hard to try to come up with legitimate ways to protect those who are caring owners and certainly to penalize those who want to use their dogs for fighting and for attacking others. We think that Bill 000537 is a fair bill 10 and that it will make a difference. Our hope is that Mr. Hendricks and the SPCA will be willing to work with the City to try to enforce this legislation. We look forward to hearing from him, as we have heard concerns in the press about his ideas in terms of enforcing and his ideas in terms of remaining with the City on a contract basis to deal with this issue. Finally, we want to thank Councilman Ortiz and the Public Safety Committee for sponsoring this legislation and look forward to a positive dialog.
Let me say that we've been joined by Councilwoman Reynolds-Brown, member of the Public Safety Committee. Dogs are very important in the lives of every family. We have a 9 BILL NO. 000537 dog in my house. His name is Nacho, and my children love that little dog. It's a terrier. But dogs can only act and behave according to the owners. And dogs are trained to behave violently. It's like a child. It's a song in South Pacific that says that you have to be taught to hate. A dog has to be taught to fight and be violent and attack. And that is not the dog's fault. That is a human being's attempt -- and he is the one that actually at one point in time we have to be going after, because we cannot -- pitbulls are like any other animal. They can be gentle and caring, but they also can be very vicious. If you treat Nacho, a little dog, a terrier, in a vicious manner, I have seen the way that little dog acts when he is attacked and he can be vicious. But I think this legislation is a beginning and I would hope that we continue -- and I'm only sorry because the press gave a lot of publicity to dog fighting when they caught this ring in North Philadelphia in Councilman Clarke's neighborhood, and we would hope that the attempts at bringing and putting some sort of limits to this can also be given the same amount of notice and publicity and that we are looking at it in a very 10 BILL NO. 000537 serious manner. Ms. Lynnette Schaeffer, can you come forward as a witness?
Councilman Rizzo has also joined us. Are you going to bring your son up also? (Witnesses come forward.)
Please identify yourself. You have to pull the microphone right close to you and speak directly into it. Could you identify yourself for the record, please.
I was in my backyard July 8th when two pitbulls came in my backyard and bit me. And I started to run and I jumped over two gates to get away, and they got me anyway because I ran back.
Yes. When they came into my 11 BILL NO. 000537 backyard, I ran out in the alley and ran back into a fence and I was going to climb it but there was barb wire up on top. So I got back down and walked slowly over to go back, and that's when they got me.
You were going back, that's when they got you? You have to talk into the microphone, Greg, so I can hear you. Go ahead.
And I tried to get in my house, but the one dog was up on the step growling at me so that's when I ran.
Because I went to run and I fell behind these bushes and they thought I went up the alley.
Who pulled the dogs away from you? Did anybody help you?
Some people were trying to. 12 BILL NO. 000537 They were hitting them with sticks.
And who is the guy in the back of the alley? What happened to him?
They dropped all the charges against him and they let him go Scot-free.
Well, the one -- they were both tied up, but they chewed through the nylon leash and got out.
Something else should happen to this guy, don't you think?
They just dropped all the 14 BILL NO. 000537 charges against him and let him go.
You're back to school and everything and you're not too afraid? We really, really want to thank you and thank your mom and even being willing to come out and tell us about it. We're really trying to do our part to help so that this doesn't happen to any other little boy or girl anyplace.
You're afraid to walk to school? How far do you have to go, how many blocks?
We're really, really sorry this had to happen, so we're trying to do our part to make life better. Thank you again and thank you, Mom, for bringing him.
Would you like to 15 BILL NO. 000537 have a dog but you're afraid of dogs now?
Yes, Nacho sleeps with my daughter. Nacho growls at me every time I go near my daughter.
I have the same thing with one of my puppies who turned on when he came out of the hospital. She was his defender. You can't go near him; she growls at you.
Yes, they do tend to be very possessive of kids. 16 BILL NO. 000537
And I don't care what kind of dog it is, it's the way they were treated and they were raised. If they're treated bad, they'll act bad.
Mr. Chairman, my remarks are more in line of a statement and not directed to these witnesses.
Okay. Ms. Schaeffer, do you have anything to add to your son's testimony?
I know you can't ban pitbulls; that's against the law. But isn't there something that you can do with the restrictions on the raising of these dogs, the upkeep of these dogs? And the reason why I'm asking this is, here you have two dogs. They jumped in my yard and mauled my kid, 80 stitches, 12 staples, a fractured arm. Then after they got through mauling him and they got the dogs off of him, they turned on each other; they came back around the alley, turned on each other. At that point, the officers came and then they turned on the officers. Isn't there some sort of a law? I mean, we went into court Friday. They 17 BILL NO. 000537 acquitted this man of all charges. Why? His statement was he didn't own the dogs.
That's exactly what was stated. The burden of proof was not there. He didn't owned the dogs.
Who owned the dogs? He had him in his house, didn't he?
These are the same dogs that bit a PECO meter-reading man the 8th of June.
You know, the tragedy is that probably this individual doesn't have any assets so that the fact -- you probably cannot even sue this person for any assets because he probably doesn't own anything. And you can't recover from him any monetary damages that he may have caused. And at the present time, as Greg says, I don't know what laws -- we cannot put him away for mistreating 18 BILL NO. 000537 the dogs. Because I think if you train a dog to fight, you should be able to -- there should be some law, it should be a felony that you're training a dog to fight. And if that dog attacks, you should be able to be charged with assault if you have trained and mistreated that dog and you have really made that dog into a vicious animal.
But unfortunately, all those charges that they had him on originally were all dropped.
The sad thing about this is I have a little boy here, he's going to have surgery again next year. His whole life, I mean, how do you -- it doesn't make sense. You're a 12-year-old boy that spent the whole entire summer in because he couldn't go out. You know, emotional scars, the mental scars will never go away.
They never go away. What I don't understand is how can two dogs destroy a family the way it did this year and the owner, quote unquote, walks Scot-free. 19 BILL NO. 000537
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to -- first of all, I'm pleased that I am able to participate in this conversation today. I'd like to talk about or discuss a conversation that I had with the SPCA because you said something that was very interesting about the state law not being able to ban particular breeds of animals, specifically, the pitbull. You might be aware, you might not be aware, there's been some media coverage that presently the SPCA manages the dog population and other problems that are referred to them by the Health Department and the SPCA is to the point where they're just about ready not to renew the contract with the City because of the problem, the pitbull problem in the City of Philadelphia based on the fact that the SPCA has become an incinerator for pitbulls where every pitbull that is brought there is basically killed and that's not what the SPCA believes that they should be doing, just killing animals. I think all of us at this table have friends in Harrisburg. I don't think we should be 20 BILL NO. 000537 discouraged because there's a state law suggesting that we can't ban a particular breed of animal. The approach that the SPCA has is, I think, a realistic approach where they're not suggesting that every pitbull that is living in Philadelphia be banned, that they want to work it in in four or five or more years that this breed be prohibited in the City, in the County of Philadelphia. And I think that all of us here at the table have enough of a relationship with our legislators to do what we need to do. If this is a crisis, then we need to do something and consider banning pitbulls in the City of Philadelphia because, again, the SPCA has had it up to here because they just don't want to continue killing every animal, every pitbull that is brought in there whether it be one that's not aggressive. And some of them are. I told a story where a neighbor of mine had this cute little dog and I, every time she walked by the house, reached down to pet the dog and I didn't know what kind of dog it was. About three or four months later, I got into a conversation and asked what kind of dog it was and she said it was a pitbull and I kind of pulled back quickly. And I 21 BILL NO. 000537 realized not every pitbull, not every breed of dog are bad. But at this point I think the majority of the pitbulls that are out there are aggressive, are dangerous, so I think we need to do something drastic. And I think just because there's a prohibition at the state level to ban these that maybe we should get together and reach out to our friends in Harrisburg and figure a way to deal with issue. I can understand this young man and how he feels and the visible scars and the internal scars. It's a very, very serious situation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I actually had a couple of questions to ask, not necessarily of this particular witness, but it was questions relating both to this case. I'm being told that there is no one here from District Attorney's Office to discuss the possibility of re-filing the charges, so at some point I would like to have discussion or something come from this Committee to request that 22 BILL NO. 000537 information.
I'd like that. I think, actually, what we should do, Jannie, is write a letter from the Committee signed by the members of the Committee asking Lynne Abraham to re-look at the case and reinstate charges against the individual owner of this. I think this should not be allowed. I believe a letter from us to her asking for this to happen should go forward, if that is -- do I have a unanimous vote from the committee?
And maybe somewhere during the course of the testimony there may be witnesses that can speak to both the Boston legislation and I believe the Wilmington legislation that actually banned pitbulls. And I don't know where that is any appellate process, but I'd like to also have someone speak to that.
I think the one -- pitbulls look dangerous and they are, but you do that and then rottweilers. And I like rottweilers. When we were looking at dogs, because my kids were asking for a dog, I really like that type of dog. 23 BILL NO. 000537 And then somebody said, Well, they're dangerous and they're vicious and they can do this. So we've got to be very careful. If you ban one dog, then you start telling other aspects and other dogs to be banned and prohibited. I think the owners of dogs have to be held responsible, directly responsible, and either civilly or criminally. And this is why I think your idea about the DA and we have to ask the DA as to where we're at in terms of criminal penalties for individuals that own dogs that become vicious or they allow them to become vicious and so to be criminally charged for the dog's action.
Can I just respond to that? I don't necessarily think that we should duplicate that particular law that was passed in Wilmington, but I would like at some point for the record to find what process was used in the event that we may ultimately have to get that drastic.
We will do that. I think we will not recess. We may pass this bill out of the Committee, but I think we will keep the agenda on it so that we can bring the people from Boston maybe to give us details in those areas and 24 BILL NO. 000537 so on.
Because it is a problem. And the thing is that now it's becoming a sport. In many of our neighborhoods, in the Latino community, the African-American community, these dogs are being trained for sport and for fighting. And the case in point we have in North Philadelphia that was uncovered the other day is not the only one. These things are happening probably every weekend across Philadelphia, and we need to be able to get the police on it and to be able to deal with it.
Mr. Chairman, can I please follow-up on what you just said?
I think we also have to be realistic and look at statistics. You mentioned that German shepherds, rottweilers, other breeds, but from what I understand, the pitbull is responsible for the majority of dog bites, animal to animal, dog to human being, so I think that we have to really face the facts that this is an exceptional 25 BILL NO. 000537 breed; and if down the road another breed would take its place, then you deal with it. But right now the information I've reviewed, I just see overwhelming --
Pitbulls are the dog of choice of drug dealers and other criminals. I know that when I walk through certain parts of North Philadelphia, all I see is individuals with these couple of pitbulls by the hand and walking them and you walk through and you look into backyards and you see pitbulls. I mean, pitbulls have become, because of ferocity if you train them, they have become the dog of choice in terms of -- and it came out of that drug dealer culture that we have that has created here and so we have that. I think we've got to look at everything, as Darrell said, from the very drastic to what we can do. But as a body here, just because we cannot do something because we don't have the powers of the state doesn't mean that we have sit immobile with our arms crossed and not do anything. We have to at least begin the process of doing something, and I think this legislation is part of that. I think it's a first step. I don't think it's the last step BILL NO. 000537 that this Council can take.
Mr. Chairman, I just want to say for the record, North Philadelphia doesn't have a monopoly on all drug dealers or the pitbulls.
It's like you walk around and you see them and sometimes it's frightening.
I understand. I didn't want it reported that way tomorrow in the Daily News.
No. But it is the dog of preference of that type of individual, and you see them in Southwest Philly, you see them North Philly, and so on. And they get them for a specific reason. Thank you, Ms. Schaeffer. Thank you very much. And thank you, young man. You're a 27 BILL NO. 000537 brave, brave, brave kid. And don't -- you've got to overcome, and I know that you will. Take care of your dogs. Thank you. Stephanie Aames. (Witness comes forward.)
I made a few notes about a few things I wanted to talk about, a number of which have already been broached by the Councilmembers. I have very mixed feelings on the breed-specific laws. But one of the issue that I think a number of people have failed to take into consideration is that the pitbull isn't actually a breed, so it would be difficult to enforced because of that. It's a mixture of a number of dogs that have certain characteristics that they sort of lump together and call a pitbull, but there is no such breed as a pitbull so that in itself would make it very difficult to enforce something breed-specific. And, in fact, all you really want to enforce anyway are 28 BILL NO. 000537 vicious dog laws. Unfortunately, most pitbulls are vicious or a very large majority of them. But I wanted to talk a little bit about what you're proposing, and I think it's wonderful and I think the most important thing. These people do this for money. I mean, that's why they engage in dog fighting because they're horrible people and I think the only way -- if criminal penalties can't be enforced or can't be enforced in a meaningful way, civil penalties to the extent that you are allowed to enforce civil penalties should be as harsh as possible because this is done for money, it's done for gambling. I think that the fines should be very substantial and I think they should be progressive. If it's going to be $300 for the first time someone does it, it should be $1,000 for the next time they do it, and five after that. I don't know how that's possible. I just think that the penalties need to be --
We're limited to $300. So it has to be $300 every time they do it repeatedly. So I think -- we would hope to have a stronger, but we don't have the capacity, the legal authority to be able to do that. 29 BILL NO. 000537
Okay. I don't know what other legal capacity you have as far as enforcing it. I know that with drug dealers and even with people with unregistered motor vehicles, the police are able to seize them. They find somebody driving without insurance or with a vehicle that's not registered, they can take it away. Can they do the same thing for dogs; and if they're able to, why aren't they doing that? That, again, hits them where they put a lot of -- unfortunately, they put a lot of time and training and money into buying these animals. They're very expensive; you can't go pick them up for a hundred bucks. And taking away these animals, first of all, removes them from the situation, the abuse that they're undergoing on a daily basis that they've been undergoing since the beginning of their lives probably. It also saves a tremendous number of other lives, the animals that are used to train them to be vicious because, again, you do have to train them to be vicious; they're not born that way.
And a German shepherd can -- if you train a German shepherd, he can be a very vicious animal, can't he?
Absolutely. Any animal, any animal. Poodles can be trained to be vicious. I mean, they're very small so they'd have to be vicious against smaller dogs, but any animal can be trained to be vicious. That is the purpose of this. I just think that the civil penalties need to be enforced to the extent that you're able to uniformly and as harshly as possible to make it more expensive for them to do business in the same way they do for uninsured drivers and drug dealers.
Great. Mr. 31 BILL NO. 000537 Chairman, I hear the discussion about different types of dogs being able to be trained, but my understanding is that one of the reason why the pitbull, prior to that the Doberman pinscher and to some degree the rottweiler, had something to do with the physical characteristics of the dog why they were chosen, the jaws, the lack of long hair apparently was one of the reason why these dogs were chosen. So I think that that in itself lends itself to that particular dog being the ones that were trained for these vicious types of acts. I think we should take that into account when we talk about some drastic measures.
The jaw strength of a rottweiler and a pitbull are supposed to be much greater than other breeds of dogs. I'm not an animal expert, but I guess the SPCA is here and we'll ask them that type of question when they come on.
And it is in fact true. And they also anatomically they're different in ways than normal dogs. Their jaws do have the capacity to lock which is not something that most animals can do. For instance, a poodle couldn't do that even 32 BILL NO. 000537 though you could still train a poodle to be vicious, he couldn't lock his jaws in the same way that those animals can.
They don't let go and they don't have to let go ever unless they faint from not being able to breath because it locks; it's like locking a door.
So that's what makes them different. And when they lock, the stay there.
Yeah, they don't ever have to let go. And believe me, I don't think people should have them as pets because I don't think most people do have them as pets. I think they have them for reasons other than having somebody to sleep at the foot of the bed or somebody to jump and give you kisses when they come home. I mean, most people have them for a specific reason.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I come from working for a utility company for a lot of years, and one of the bigger problems we had, and the young man mentioned about -- or the 33 BILL NO. 000537 mom had mentioned about one of the PECO utility meter readers being bitten by a dog. One of the things we realized was that our employees didn't really understand how to deal with an aggressive animal, that many of them would run. And the worst thing you can do is run from a dog because they win all the time. Do you think that there's something in the interim we can do, an educational program on teaching people when they are approached by an aggressive dog how to respond, how to protect yourself? I know that after we introduced a safety program and instructed our personnel how to deal with that situation that the number of dog bites went really, really low because they dealt better with the situation. They realized that running is not the thing to do, you're doing exactly what the dog wants you to do, run and be that rabbit. Do you think there's something that we can do, the media could do in reference to educating people on how to respond and how to take care of themselves?
I'm sure that that would be very valuable because I know that most people don't 34 BILL NO. 000537 know that. I'm constantly surprised by the things that people don't know about animals. I don't think it is common knowledge that the worst thing, the absolute worst thing you can do is run when a dog is behaving aggressively.
Matter of fact, I learned that probably the best defense is to stay absolutely still. Thy lose interest almost immediately when you don't respond to them being aggressive and protecting your vital organs and just not reacting in a way that makes the dog more aggressive. So I would encourage the media maybe to get the word out there because if we save just a few people from being injured in the interim until we deal with this issue, I think that would be very helpful. Like you just mentioned, you're confident, and so am I, that people just really don't know how to respond and how to protect themselves. Thank you.
Thank you, Miss Aames. Officer Joseph Hulmes. I hope that I pronounced it correctly. My name is frequently 35 BILL NO. 000537 mispronounced. Could you please identify yourself for the record, officer? (Witness comes forward.) OFFICER HULMES: Good afternoon. Officer James Hulmes. I'm assigned to the 27th District in North Philadelphia. I was also attacked by a pitbull, and in short, I'll give you a summary surrounding the events.
Speak into the microphone, sir. OFFICER HULMES: I was also attacked by a pitbull on duty and I'll give you a summary of the events surrounding that incident. We had a call that an officer was chasing somebody with a gun. Myself, Sergeant Walsh, and Officer McKeaver (ph) responded to that area in the alley where this person was last seen, so the three of us were relatively close together. I just happened to take the alley, Sergeant Walsh took Myrtlewood, and Officer McKeaver took Hollywood. While I was pulling up in my patrol vehicle to the alley, I noticed a dog climbing over a fence the second house down. Now, I didn't think much of it. I'm very comfortable around dogs. I 36 BILL NO. 000537 have owned several large dogs of my own. And this dog was not very large. So I got out of my vehicle. Of course, my attention is primary focussed down the alley for a possible person with a gun, so when the dog approached me, I disregarded it, not feeling it to be much of a threat. It wasn't running at me, it wasn't growling, wasn't giving any of the signs that most dogs would do to indicate that they're going to attack or to indicate that you're in their space or indicate that you're doing something that they don't like you to do. So it began to smell or sniff my belly, which again, is what dogs do. So I just stood there. I let it do it. And without warning, without provocation of anything from myself, it just began to tear into my sweater, my vest, and my abdomen as a whole. Now, of course, that grabbed my attention.
I would hope so. OFFICER HULMES: Luckily, it had a collar, not a leash, but a collar, and I grabbed it with my right hand and pulled it away from my body which then it began attacking my right arm. At this point, I yelled for help and luckily Officer McKeaver and Sergeant Walsh were close by. A few 37 BILL NO. 000537 seconds later, they're at my side. I'm still struggling with the dog to keep it away from my body, away from my neck, what have you. Officer McKeaver was able to shoot the dog once in the side. It immediately let go of my right arm and latched onto my left thumb, breaking it in half and causing severe damage. I was then able with my right arm free I was able to draw my own weapon, fire an additional three shots which took the dog down, thankfully. Responding to, I believe, Rizzo's comments about dogs and running away and not doing the wrong things, with these dogs I feel who are trained to fight, no matter what you do, if they have it in their mind-set they're going to attack you, you don't know what's going to trigger that. It may not be running, it may not be anything; just something might snap and then they're in attack mode. Normal dogs, I agree, you run away, they want to chase. But I feel as though with dogs such as these and trained to fight, I disagree with that. I don't think there is anything you can do unless you can get inside their head and find out what's going to trigger that particular dog to attack. 38 BILL NO. 000537 And this dog that attacked me, Officer McKeaver took a report three weeks earlier that this dog attacked a roofer unprovoked and severely damaged his foot. Luckily, this dog is not going to attack anyone anymore.
Officer, was the dog loose without a leash? OFFICER HULMES: It did not have a leash. When I pulled up, I observed it climbing over a fence, a fence about as tall as I am, about six foot chain link fence. I've never seen anything like that, but since my attention was more down the alley, I just -- it took hindsight. It wasn't my primary focus.
I imagine that the perpetrator with the gun got away? OFFICER HULMES: No, he was caught. It just so happens that he had passed through the alley just moments before we got there and he was caught about a block down the street, luckily.
That's good news at least. OFFICER HULMES: That's another story entirely different. However, this dog, like I said, 39 BILL NO. 000537 attacked someone three weeks or four weeks prior, had gone through the SPCA and stayed there for three days.
This dog? OFFICER HULMES: Yes, the dog that attacked me.
What happened to the owner, if anything? OFFICER HULMES: Nothing. No charges were filed against the owner.
No charges were filed? OFFICER HULMES: No charges were filed against the owner of the dog.
The dog had a rap sheet of sort, right? OFFICER HULMES: Yes.
So the dog had attacked other individuals before? OFFICER HULMES: Yes, it did. And Officer McKeaver was able to say that's the same dog because he's the one that initially took the report the first time. The dog was apparently known in the area. 40 BILL NO. 000537 I talked to the SPCA, and I forget the gentleman's name. He had given me some information that said the dog was there for three days as part of a quarantine. I think it's usually a little longer. The person paid all cash all up front, paid for a rabies shot, was able to get the dog out within three days and never took the dog back for the rabies shot. I have since gone back to this area, being in my district.
And the guy has another dog. OFFICER HULMES: The guy has two dogs. One is a female dog. You can tell it just had puppies or is about to have puppies, and a very, very large pitbull with a chain, a thick chain around its neck. Both of them are tied down within the yard. I have gone past there several times, and it's usually filthy. He's not having it as pets, and that's part of the training --
And it's nothing you can do as a police officer? OFFICER HULMES: Not that I know of.
Knowing that these are very dangerous animals right there and that you 41 BILL NO. 000537 know they're not there for pets. OFFICER HULMES: Exactly. There's nothing I can do unless I see him physically assault the dog of some sort or do something that's maybe it's cruelty to animals, but we see where that goes. People in the neighborhood -- I started, as part of a possible civil, suit filming the area and neighbors were approaching me and saying, Yes, please do something about these dogs; he fights them. They couldn't give me any direct information nor are they inclined to give me their name, understandably. But it's known that this guy fights the dogs. And during my routine patrol going down alleys, dogs will bark when you go down an alley, that's normal. But some of these dogs will attack you for no reason, without going into their space or, you know, the typical going to their puppies or blocking their puppies or something like that. They will attack you for no reason.
But this individual had a vicious dog that attacked people which you and your partner shot and killed when he attacked you, and then he went back and got the same type of dog 42 BILL NO. 000537 to train along the same lines and there's nothing that you as a law enforcement and the DA we can do along these lines to be able to do something about a known danger to community and to neighbors? OFFICER HULMES: Not that I know of. I've talked to my supervisors about it, and nothing has come of it.
Even though there's testimony that these dogs are vicious? OFFICER HULMES: Uh-huh.
And there can be witnesses that these dogs are not pets? OFFICER HULMES: Again, as far as I know, there's nothing I can do. I wish if somebody had information of something that I could do, that that would be relief to me and the rest of the officers out there so that we are informed as to other alternatives.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Officer, how you feeling? OFFICER HULMES: It took me a few months, a little bit of therapy, but I'm back to 43 BILL NO. 000537 work full duty.
I'm sure that you're a police officer six feet and you have probably have the same concerns as a that little boy behind you when you see a pitbull or an aggressive animal, so I can understand that. As I sit here I think back about some of the experiences and I can remember them like they were yesterday when I walked out on the street. I'd like to go back to the rap sheet on the dog that bit you. He attacked a roofer. OFFICER HULMES: That's correct.
This is the part that I'm interested in. When the dog was taken to the SPCA and kept there for three days, if that pitbull had been picked up just by the normal process, it would have been killed? OFFICER HULMES: I presume so. I can not answer for the SPCA, but I believe that is their practice.
If I may, Councilman, because -- Stan, one of our trainees, just gave me a legislation and I think -- the Philadelphia Code and 44 BILL NO. 000537 it's Section 10-104. Section No. 2 says "Any animal which is vicious," and I would imagine that you would have to evidence of the this viciousness that this animal has expressed, "may be seized by any police officer or any authorized animal control officer and may be humanely destroyed at the discretion of the Department of Public Health after a reasonable effort has been made to notify the owner." Now, that means that if guy has a dog that we can classify as vicious that has exhibited that viciousness and has attacked other individuals, does this then give the authorities, Stanley, to the police officer to enter into property and seize the animal? STANLEY: I understand that there is state law on the subject so there may be some limitations based on state law. But apparently, there is at least some thought that's being given to whatever local law and it may be that there needs to be some contact with the state legislature to remove whatever barriers there are to enforcement. Something that we can research.
What about the next 45 BILL NO. 000537 section which is "animals committing nuisance," can we begin looking at that? OFFICER HULMES: I think the problem with that might be the dog that I observed being vicious is now dead. The dogs that this male now has in his backyard, all that I have seen is barking and growling. I have not seen them attack anything yet. I think that is the problem. So how do you define vicious? Barking? Well, that would be every dog. And how do you define reasonable effort as part of the other part of the statute?
Thank you, sir. So I guess I need to understand the process why if that pitbull was brought in after its involvement in an attack, apparently a significant attack -- OFFICER HULMES: Yeah, he needed to go to the hospital for his treatment.
Why it was allowed to leave? I assume because there was an owner associated with the animal, but from what I understand, pitbulls that are brought into the SPCA now aren't considered for adoption, they are just put down. 46 BILL NO. 000537 OFFICER HULMES: I believe that to be the case, but I cannot speak on behalf of the SPCA.
But I don't understand what the difference would be even though this one has an owner associated with it. If it's a pitbull and it's brought in after an attack, why the owner wouldn't be told that this dog is as eligible as one that was caught with a net out on the street? So that part I think we need to hear the policies of the SPCA because that dog would have been taken care of the way the others are. Your thumb, you know, you'd be able do that. So I guess -- I don't know if we have anyone here. Do we have anyone here representing the SPCA? Oh, yes, I see him in the back there. When they testify I'd appreciate that issue being addressed. Thank you.
Officer, Councilman Clarke has some comments and questions.
How you doing, Officer? You're in the 22nd? 47 BILL NO. 000537 OFFICER HULMES: Yes.
One of our fine officers in the Fifth District. Officer, during the past several years, actually decades ago, you spoke of a situation where people in the communities were afraid to talk about who the dog owners were, some of the activities of the owners, what other things they were involved with, and over the course of years we've had a similar situation as it related to the drug trade. OFFICER HULMES: Certainly. They have to live there; we do not.
Same situation with some of the gun running activities, because they were afraid of reprisals from those individuals. OFFICER HULMES: Certainly.
We are not quite there yet on the pitbull vicious dog situation. But, I mean, if we don't do something about it, then it will get there. My question is, what we did with those particular instances, we started using undercover officers and started implanting them into the particular drug rings and into the gun-running rings, and I'm wondering do we or should we in fact 48 BILL NO. 000537 have undercover officers involved with this pitbull and vicious dog industry? Because these people, they interact -- I mean, this is not just some random type of thing. They sell the dogs, there's this undercover -- they know where the dog fights are. Do we have undercover officers involved in this type of activity? OFFICER HULMES: As far as I know, we do not. But if we're going to do anything about it, we're going to need to. It would be the equivalent to of the uniformed officer to try to buy drugs from a drug dealer to make an arrest for drug sales. In order to catch the people who are fighting these dogs, we have to go in there not obviously as uniformed officers. The other alternative would be to have plain clothes units out there.
With the pitbulls. OFFICER HULMES: With pitbulls, right. Or even just go as a spectator. Not everyone goes to these fights as an owner. They go as a spectator to make money based on bets. And that's the only way I feel as though we can do it. As a uniformed officer, I have not seen any pitbulls fighting in a ring-like setting because 49 BILL NO. 000537 they're done behind closed doors, they're done knowing that the police are looking especially now it's in the public's eye and they're smart. They find ways to keep it quiet. Nineteenth and Arch did it inside of a garage. I'd been watching that garage previously for what I thought was other illegal activity, i.e., chopping of cars. I had no idea that that garage was being used for a pitbull ring.
I'm very familiar with that garage, and I agree, I probably knew that there was some chopping up of vehicles, but I had no 14 idea. OFFICER HULMES: Yeah, late at night, grinding and whatnot you hear.
They went into diversity. OFFICER HULMES: Yeah, they're using their property to the fullest extent.
So is it your recommendation that maybe we should -- OFFICER HULMES: I think that would be the only way. I do not know whether we have any units out there doing such a thing, but that would 50 BILL NO. 000537 be the only way we can put a stop at the core. However, I think back to the other issue about banning pitbulls, I think that would be a problem. I'm no expert, by any means, but common sense, if pitbulls are banned, they're not the only nasty dog out there. There are much larger dogs. This pitbull that bit me was small compared to dogs I'm used to. I mean, my dog was 120 pounds, and that's what I consider a good sized dog. There are other dogs out there that are much larger, maybe not with the same physical attributes as far as their jaw is concerned, but they can be just as deadly. So if we were to outlaw pitbulls or have a problem with pitbulls, they would just use other dogs. Do you follow me? I don't know what her name was, unfortunately, but she says there's no such breed as a pitbull. Well, that would be another problem. How do you classify what a pitbull is?
It's a problem. Anytime you go into that type of thing, it creates more problems. We need to set up a system in which really the owners, we have to be able to have some people accountable and some degree of criminality 51 BILL NO. 000537 that goes into anyone owning a type of dog of this so it's not just civilly liable, but that there's also some criminal liability involved. I think that needs to be included in there. OFFICER HULMES: I don't know what Licenses and Inspections can do, but in sake of that garage, is there anything that Licenses and Inspections might be able to do as far as that building being used for illegal dog fighting?
I think License and Inspection or the Health Department can look into that house with these two dogs or the other dogs that are there and I think we might be able to ask those departments to look into what violations. It could be a health question. OFFICER HULMES: It certainly is.
It could be a health question. It's something that we have to look into as another tool to use.
I've learned in the last hearing that the Health Department is pretty much out of the loop on the control and the 52 BILL NO. 000537 enforcement. They contracted it out to the SPCA, so I'm not sure what the health department --
Well, I understand that, but if there's any health violations, I mean, you know, dog doo-doo and all of that other stuff creates all sorts of health problems.
But the day-to-day enforcement, I believe, just as it pertains to the dog --
We have to bring them all into the loop. We can't leave anyone outside the loop. We've got to bring them all into the loop. Thank you, officer. OFFICER HULMES: Thank you.
Thank you, again, Officer, for coming. Let me also note that this bill does try not only to deal with the owner, but also the venue. Thank you again.