Because I go through that hall and as I bring people here to this building, I always take a tour down there. And that is an example of interior misuse, if I would, and we had an opportunity to correct it. I will never ever, ever, ever argue against District Council prerogative, being a District Councilperson, with no 22 disrespect to my at-large colleagues, but District Council prerogative is important to me. But I would also argue that sometimes every now and then that the 207 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. at-large perspective should be considered because they're responsible for keeping us not so parochial in our view that we forget the best interest of the City. In regard to Center City, I believe that absolutely pound for pound square inch per acre there is more historical buildings down here, but also in the neighborhoods. We have been the victims of misuse of both exterior and interior alterations to what are beautiful historic properties, whether we talk about the mansions of Germantown, whether we talk about the beautiful facades that can be found in East Falls, whether you talk about in low-income neighborhoods where renovators came in to communities telling senior citizens that they would replace their windows with energy-efficient windows, only to remove, recycle and resell stained-glass windows that were ten times the value of the replacement glass that they were giving away, and these victims didn't know what 208 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. they were giving away. There are companies that are in Philadelphia today that make a living off of North Philadelphia homes that take away their cerebrations and the unique craftsmanship of the moulding and then resells them to Main Line firms that do construction outside of the City. So this bill is important by way of our long-term preservation of the character of not only the buildings that are commercial buildings downtown, but some of the neighborhoods that make Philadelphia unique. So I know we need to get it right, but we do need to get it, because I've had an opportunity to knock on a lot of doors in my district and I look at a beautiful exterior building, only to come in and find popcorn ceilings that were dropped down because it was a fad to put sparkles in the ceilings, and it's such a travesty to the rich character of our neighborhoods. And I just wanted to put that on the 209 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. record. Having said it, you know, thank you for the opportunity.
You're welcome. Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I forgot what I was going to ask, so I'll hold off for a while, but thank you.
Thank you, Madam President. I have a series of questions that involve both these people who are testifying and the people I thought would be on this panel, which are the Law Department and the Planning Commission all together. Would it be possible to have them to testify also and then I can ask the group a question rather than doing it to two separate panels?
If the Committee has no objection. As a 210 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. matter of fact, I believe they all had been called to approach the witness table.
Four people can sit at the witness table. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Good afternoon. Identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Good afternoon. I am Gary Jastrzab. I'm the Acting Executive Director of the City Planning Commission. I am here today to express the City Planning Commission's staff support for Bill 080527, as amended, which was introduced by Councilmembers Green, Greenlee and Reynolds Brown on May 22nd. The City Planning Commission itself has not yet had an opportunity to review this bill, but will do so at its next meeting on Tuesday, June 17th. And 211 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. I understand that the Historical Commission, as we heard, will be discussing this bill in executive session later this week. This bill would authorize the Historical Commission to designate for preservation the interiors of buildings that are or were designed to be customarily open or accessible to the citizens of the City of Philadelphia. The interiors that are referenced in the bill are public in nature and we know them generally as banks, stores, theatres, train stations or lobbies of office buildings. The bill does not apply to the interior of private residences, whether these buildings are historically certified or not. In addition to its power to designate historic structures in the City, the Historical Commission has had regulatory powers over modifications to the exteriors of historically certified structures since its inception in 1955. 212 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. In the more than 50 years that have passed since the Historical Commission was created, preservation policy has matured, and it is now recognized that outstanding examples of interior architecture that is both familiar to and much loved by the public should have protection similar to that which historic designation affords. Peer cities have designated interiors of buildings as historic for the education, pleasure and welfare of the city. Philadelphia, with its wealth of structures that feature magnificently designed interiors, should join their ranks. Philadelphia's Historical Commission, the first of its kind in the nation, has played a significant role in maintaining the excellence of the built environment that defines the unique character of our city. We have learned that economic development and investment goes hand in hand with successful preservation planning. This bill gives 213 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. the Historical Commission yet another tool to accomplish its charge. That concludes my testimony and I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.
Good afternoon, Madam Chair. I'm Lewis Rosman. I'm a senior attorney with the Law Department. I don't have any prepared testimony, but I'm available for any questions that any members may have.
Thank you. I'm kind of curious, do you have any estimate of the number of properties that would be affected by these proposals?
John Farnham, Executive Director of the Historical Commission. I asked my staff to prepare a list of what they thought would be the interiors that would fit the criteria for designation, and that list has 214 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. approximately 80 properties on it.
Approximately 80 interiors was the estimate that my staff developed. That's within the ball park. I would not imagine more than 100, 150 over the course of many, many years of considering nominations.
I think we would all appreciate it if we could have a copy of that list.
Thank you. Do you know of any other jurisdictions that in fact have an ordinance such as we are proposing?
Yes. There are several in the United States. The ordinance as proposed is based on New York City's ordinance -- the section of New York City's ordinance that allows for the designations of interiors. The 215 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. language is very similar. In addition to that, in my testimony I noted Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, Washington, DC. We're also aware of many smaller cities such as Pasadena, California have ordinances that are in many ways very similar to what is proposed here.
Good afternoon. I'm confused about a couple of things. Has your testimony been that you have not had a chance to fully review the legislation?
Well, I think I personally have. I think my testimony is that the Historical Commission as a body has not had a chance to review it and discuss it as a group.
I think I just heard two things in your latest 216 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. comments in response to questions. One, that it's very similar in nature to legislation in other cities and that, two, you've already concluded how many properties may fall under this legislation. That seems like a lot of due diligence that has already gone into this that sort of shows that although maybe the Historical Commission has not reviewed it yet, that there was due diligence done not only on the part of you and your staff, but Councilman Green and his staff. So essentially I'm not sure what we're waiting for. Are we supposed to be waiting for someone else to approve it before we do?
My point is, why wouldn't we consider it today? If your own testimony and comments suggest that this is based upon legislation that is found in other cities, one, and, two, you've already done enough due diligence 217 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. that shows that you actually know the impact of how many buildings this will affect, are you suggesting that we should go through your process before we go through ours?
I'm, by no means, suggesting that this Council should be guided by the Historical Commission. I would like to have it vetted through the Historical Commission. I think the Chair agrees with me. Because the Historical Commission members come from many different -- they have different perspectives. They represent different constituencies, and I'm sure that they will raise questions, perhaps concerns that my staff and I, along with the Chair, have not yet even considered.
You have questions and concerns that will not be vetted through this legislative process?
Well, I think the hope is that if there are concerns, that those would be conveyed to you 218 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. immediately after Friday's meeting.
Thank you. I think you answered what I needed to know very succinctly. Thank you.
Right. Thank you, Madam Chair. It seems to me and I have the impression that most people testifying -- there are quite a few -- have some questions about the ramifications of this bill and they've requested more time. I know Councilman DiCicco has recommended maybe we allow the summer for people to digest this bill in its present form. I'm just wondering from the sponsor maybe, is there any reason why we have to vote this bill out of Committee today? Are there any buildings that are being designated as being torn down today or whatever? I just want to find out how important it is that we act on this today 219 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. and not give the people who have requested more time to digest this bill.
Thank you, Madam President. Well, this bill came to fruition as we were looking at the Boyd Theatre matter. In fact, I think it will help explain if I just read the statement I was going to read at the beginning of this, and, that is, all of Philadelphia's peer cities have similar provisions in their laws and regulations, but Philadelphia, a city of significant architectural landmarks, has lagged behind and only permits the designation of exteriors and historic districts. We are not heading into unchartered territory with this bill. Boston, San Francisco, Chicago, New York City each have designated public interior 220 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. spaces for decades. This legislation is modeled after the language in New York City's longstanding ordinance, 35 years, which simply permits the designation of historically significant interiors that are customarily designed to be open and accessible to the public. In practice, this would permit building lobbies or other public spaces to be designated as historic. The designation would not and could not be applied to customarily private spaces inside private buildings, nor would it affect homes. The Boyd Theatre has recently rekindled the historic preservation issue and drawn our attention to the need for following the best practices of other major cities such as New York. The State Supreme Court ruled 15 years ago that the Historical Commission does not have any legal authority to designate and preserve the interior of the Boyd or any other 221 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. significant building because our ordinances did not give them the specific authority to do so. This legislation will finally give the Commission the ability to do so, not that they necessarily will, unless they reach their own finding of historical significance. Philadelphia's existing historically significant interiors such as the Wanamaker Building, the Academy of Music and the Ben Franklin House have remained intact by the benevolence of their owners. There is currently no 15 legal means to prevent any current or future owner from gutting any of these magnificent spaces or altering them beyond recognition. The attempted sale and removal of the Dream Garden mosaic in the Curtis Building has shown how unexpectedly one of our famous interiors can be permanently altered. Even if the Boyd Theatre's current application for designation is approved, it would only 222 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. protect the facade of the building and leave the Theatre's unique art deco interior vulnerable to destruction. With the Boyd up for sale once again and the future treatment of our other treasured spaces uncertain, I think we need to move on this legislation, even if we do so without a suspension of the rules to give the Historical Commission more time to respond. However, I think if I go through a bunch of questions that I had for these witnesses, I can answer many of those questions more specifically. Thank you.
The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Madam President. I'll probably hold off on some of my other questions, but the one question I have, is there an effective date? I don't see it in the bill, nor in the amendment. 223 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc.
It would be effective upon signing by the Mayor. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So technically if it was voted out and we passed it on the 19th, the Mayor has, what, ten days -- we still wouldn't get it to the fall, right? This wouldn't come -- because we're going on recess on the 19th, this bill would not become effective until the fall when we return anyway; is that --
The Mayor can sign it any time after the 19th. Upon its delivery to the Mayor from Council, the Mayor could sign it any time and it would become -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: The earliest we can deliver it is the 19th, the day we recess.
That's right. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: If we're in recess, because the Mayor signed it, does it become law immediately?
Yes, it does. 224 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So it's effective --
If he signs it on the 19th. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I know there's been some back and forth discussion on the peer cities and, again, I guess my question goes back to if staff from the Planning Commission and staff from the Historical Commission have reviewed this but the Boards of those two agencies have not had an opportunity to comment, I guess it kind of goes to Councilman Goode's question, is -- maybe this wasn't his question. It's my question. We normally would wait until the Boards come back with a decision. In many cases we may not concur with those decisions, but we do rely on that testimony. So there is a number of questions that no one knows what may come about from the Historical Commission and the Planning Commission Board over the 225 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. next couple of weeks or whenever they're meeting again. Wouldn't it make more sense, I guess, to the sponsors of the bill, again, that we take that -- let that opportunity -- allow for that opportunity to vet itself and see where we are? And I don't know if -- Councilman Green says he has some answers to some of the questions. Are there any other buildings beside the Boyd that are in jeopardy of being demolished or renovated in such a manner that alter the integrity of those interiors between now and the fall? And I know that Councilman Clarke has been working on the Boyd Theatre issue for a number of years. Is there any resolution 19 to that from the Administration? Could the Historical Commission, where are we with the Boyd?
John Farnham of the Historical Commission. The Preservation Alliance, the preservation advocacy non-profit, has 226 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. submitted a nomination for the designation under the current ordinance 4 of the Boyd that will be heard by the Historical Commission's Committee on Historic Designation on July 16th and by the full Commission at its meeting in early August. The notice letter has been sent to the property owner, Live Nation, announcing the consideration of the two public meetings. As of the date of that notice letter, which I believe was May 29th, the property is under the jurisdiction of the Historical Commission until it votes otherwise. Any building permit applications for the property must be referred from the Department of Licenses and Inspections to the Historical Commission for review for those to be approved. That said, the property is for sale and it's my understanding that bids were recently accepted by Live Nation, but I personally have not had any contact with Live Nation and don't know the 227 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. outcome of that bidding process. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Let me know if I understand this correctly. So if the Commission accepts and approves the recommendation for the Boyd, the alterations or any alterations would not be able to proceed?
The Historical Commission would have to review, just as it does for designated buildings now -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Review proposals for alterations.
Proposals for alterations. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So, in essence, someone just can't walk into the Boyd if it's approved by the Historical Commission and just do any interior renovations or demolition without having to go through that process?
All permit applications would be required to go through the Historical Commission's process, but it's important to point out 228 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. that currently the Historical Commission does not have jurisdiction over interiors. So any work to the interior that did not impact the exterior of the building or the structure of the building would be automatically approved by the Historical Commission. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Bill, are you chairing this?
Thank you, Councilman. Councilman Green, you wanted the floor?
Yes. Thank you. This question goes to the Law Department. The way this legislation is drafted, what would be the process for then the Historical Commission to create rules and regulations for governing designation of interior spaces?
It would be the same process for any department to adopt regulations. They would meet. They 229 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. would presumably start with staff, discussing with the Law Department some initial drafts. They would share the drafts in some form with the Commission in some sort of preview respect, and then once it was in sufficient form to bring to the full Commission, the Commission would vote on the regulations and publish the regulations, as all departments do, through the Records Department. There would be a comment period, 30-day comment period, during which the public could request a hearing on the regulations, and then if the hearing was requested, there's additional process. It would be the same process under the Charter for any department to adopt regulations.
Is the approval of the Historical Commission required to have this ordinance be effective in any way or --
No. I mean, to implement the ordinance if it's adopted -- 230 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc.
They would have to adopt rules and regulations, but their approval, is that required?
The Planning Commission, is their approval required for this?
No. I mean, the Planning Commission, sometimes it's required that they make recommendations in connection with legislation. I don't think that applies in this case. But there are no bills where Planning Commission approval is required.
Have you ever seen City Council pass a Streets ordinance or something like that and then have the Planning Commission approve it at their next meeting based upon the recommendation of the staff of the 231 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. Planning Commission in Council testimony?
You're saying after the Council hearing or after the bill is --
Gary is here. Has the Planning Commission ever testified before City Council prior to the entire Commission meeting and had us, based upon the staff's recommendation, pass out a bill that was then approved by the Commission at a later Planning Commission hearing?
Not all the time. A lot of it is dependent upon schedules. This time of year is particularly difficult because the City Planning Commission has monthly meetings and there are many bills to be considered. But the answer to the 232 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. question is, yes, we have done that in the past.
Most Streets hearings I'm on we end up doing that, but okay. Very good. I just wanted to point out that this would not be at all an unusual process for City Council to have done its work, work closely with the staff, produce good legislation and then have the relevant agency approve it afterwards. But in those cases where we normally do that, I point out that Planning Commission approval is actually needed prior to our passage of this legislation. According to the Law Department's testimony, it is not required for this ordinance. So my personal opinion is, we should not concern ourselves with that. So can you tell me, somebody either from the Planning Commission or the Law Department, when the first historical ordinance was passed, were the 233 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. rules and regulations governing how it was going to work written by the staff prior to or after the ordinance was passed?
Well, I don't know for a fact. I've never researched it, but if the Historical Commission didn't exist, presumably there was nobody to adopt regulations.
But generally when you pass legislation, when are the rules and regulations written? Before or after you pass the legislation?
Right. So I just want to make that point. So does the Historical Commission have the authority to make amendments to its rules and regulations to address new issues that arise over time, getting to Mr. Sherman's concern?
Yes, they do. Okay. 234 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. Has the Historical Commission ever revised its rules and regulations in the past?
Thank you. If given the authority to designate interiors under this legislation, do you anticipate the Historical Commission will revise its rules and regulations to set forth specific guidelines and processes for implementing that new authority?
Are you aware of the rules and regulations for the New York City Landmarks Commission, which has had the authority to designate interiors for over three decades and which our ordinance is based upon?
Yes, I am aware of them. I certainly don't know them chapter and verse, but I'm aware of them.
To your knowledge, are those rules and 235 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. regulations working well?
Did I ask you to call the New York Planning Commission and talk to them about their rules and regulations before testimony?
In preparing revised rules and regulations to address the designation of historical interiors, could the Commission use rules and regulations employed by its sister commissions in other cities as a model?
I don't believe -- of course, we can learn something from them, but I don't believe that the New York rules are really applicable to Philadelphia. Their rules are based on building typology, which is 236 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. very different from our current rules and would be difficult to adapt, and I would advocate that we didn't adapt a set of rules based on typology.
So how would you see the process going if we were to pass this ordinance?
I would imagine that the Commission would establish a committee, an ad hoc committee, to draft a set of rules that would include staff members, perhaps a few members of the Committee, perhaps a few from outside the Commission and would prepare -- and the Commission would hold a series of public discussions on those rules and regulations during its regular monthly meetings, and when the Commission was convinced that they were the appropriate rules, would go through the process that my colleague has stated.
Right. So if we pass this legislation, the Historical Commission will go through 237 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. exactly the process that Mr. Sherman testified that he'd like the Historical Commission to go through in terms of having each Commission member's input, they would have their input on how exactly the rules would be written, how specific, specific criteria are for designation, et cetera?
Yes. The Commission would go through a process similar to that that Mr. Sherman was suggesting, but if I may, I believe that Mr. Sherman was suggesting that we undertake that exercise not to establish a set of rules and regulations but to better understand --
With respect, I don't know how you can designate an interior unless you know the specific criteria that apply because you have rules and regulations written. In other words, you can say this is a pretty room, but until you have rules and regulations, you can't go through the 238 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. process of sort of picking a case room 3 criteria. Now, you can do that as you -- use that as a model to help you write better rules and regulations when you do that, but they would be at least coterminous activities; would they not?
-- Mr. Sherman was suggesting that we go through that exercise, not necessarily to --
I didn't ask what Mr. Sherman -- I didn't ask you to repeat what Mr. Sherman said. I said the question, Dr. Farnham, is, isn't that exactly what the Commission will do once we pass this ordinance? And if you want to do that in a process of picking a room 22 at a time to help you write the rules and regulations, you can do that. Is that a yes? I'd like a yes or a no answer to that. 239 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc.
The Historical Commission, would it go through -- by picking an example room, wouldn't it have to almost write the rules and regulations at the same time that would apply to creating what the characteristics or aspects of that room 11 that have to be preserved are and essentially there's no reason for us to delay for you to go through that process? You're going to go through that process, and until you do go through that process, you won't have the ability to accept applications for the historical designations of interiors, so that the Historical Commission will have its full input prior to any rules and regulations, including all the expertise on it and the ability to do a practice room if you choose to do so as a Historical Commission as you're writing the rules and regulations. Isn't that correct? 240 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc.
I think I ought to defer to Mr. Sherman to answer that question. My testimony was that I thought that the Commission ought to at its June 13th meeting have an opportunity to discuss this and present --
And you would have that opportunity before final passage to present your findings to us --
I would defer your earlier question or your question to Mr. Sherman to answer, because I didn't make that statement.
In reference to that earlier question, as I understand it -- and it was brought up in the 241 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. discussion on Friday at our meeting that we had at the Historical Commission offices -- that this legislation has been in the process since January or February of this year.
Okay. Really I think the point that I'm trying to drive home here is that the City of Philadelphia has an up and functioning Historical Commission, and every Councilman has their prerogative to introduce whatever legislation they want to introduce.
But the point that I'm really trying to make is that this is an important issue and we have a highly trained staff at Historic Commission that, in my opinion, I would like to engage more fully and not -- I'm not saying rewrite the bill or offer amendments, but to tap that expertise 242 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. that we've got at that Commission and vet this bill and put it through its paces. That's all I'm suggesting.
But my point, Mr. Sherman, is the bill -- and the Law Department can testify to this -- doesn't have to go through any paces. All of the rules and regulations governing the interior spaces will be written by your Commission. The bill 12 itself has no impact on that. So the process you are talking about is essentially a rule-making process. The legislation gives you broad discretion. You will be able to write the rules and regulations the way you want, going through exactly the process you're talking about.
The 243 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. Chair recognizes Councilman Goode.
Mr. Rosman, let me try to guide you in some of those comments. In developing the administrative regulations, it's simply true that the administrative regulations cannot conflict with the ordinance; is that true?
But the administrative regulations can go beyond the ordinance?
They can develop what's in the ordinance and provide additional guidance, additional rules under the ordinance, but they can't conflict.
And that is essentially where the technical expertise comes into play. I don't think Councilmembers are expected to be experts on every subject that comes before them, although we do our independent research, 244 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. whether we pull in the agencies and commissions, whether we pull in independent consultants. However we develop the legislation that we developed, it is understood as the government of design that we are here to legislate, and that is not to be dictated to by the administrative branch or vice versa necessarily. Even after we do what we do in terms of legislating, essentially you still have the ability to create administrative regulations that further develop the implementation. So my question really is to the Historical Commission staff that has obviously studied this already with their technical expertise, is there absolutely anything you're going to come up with that's going to conflict with the ordinance as currently drafted or the amendments?
I don't know the answer to that question until I've had an opportunity to discuss it with the 245 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. Commission.
No. You will be making recommendations to the Commission. You won't just be discussing with them. My question is, based upon your review of the current legislation and even the amendments that might be offered, right now do you know of anything that you would recommend or can you conceive of anything you would recommend that can't just be put into the administrative regulations in a way that's not going to conflict with this ordinance?
Thank you. I have no more questions for this panel. Thank you.
Thank you. Are there any other questions or comments from members of the 246 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. Committee? (No response.)
Gentlemen, thank you very much. MR. McPHERSON: The next two witnesses are John Gallery and Lori Salganicoff. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Good afternoon. Nice seeing you. Please identify yourself.
My name is John Gallery. I'm the Executive Director of the Preservation Alliance for Greater Philadelphia. I appreciate the opportunity to be here and to testify on this bill. You were given a copy of a written testimony that I prepared before 247 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. I had seen the latest amendments and before the discussion that's occurred today, so I'm going to not read my testimony, but I'm going to address some of the issues in it, but also address some of the questions that have come up in this recent discussion. First of all, let me say the Preservation Alliance is in favor of adding the designation of interiors to the Philadelphia ordinance. We think this is something that should be done and we think it is appropriate for us to do it in Philadelphia. As has already been testified, the provision to designate interiors is common in ordinances of many other cities. In 2006, the Preservation Alliance undertook a research study to look at ordinances in other cities to see in fact how they handle the designation of interiors. Again, it's been mentioned we looked at the ordinances in Boston, Washington, New York, San Francisco, 248 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. Portland, Oregon and many smaller cities, and what we discovered were a number of things. First, many, many, many, many, many more cities than we realized do include interior designation in their ordinances. Secondly, the nature of the designations varies considerably. If you lived in Pasadena, California, your entire living room, kitchen, dining room, bedroom of your private single-family home could be designated as a historic interior if it was a house designed by the famous California architects Greene and Greene. If you lived in Oak Park, Illinois, your living and bedroom could be designated as historic if you lived in a house designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. However, what we did discover in that research was that the majority, the vast majority, of historic interior ordinances focus on interiors that are accessible to the public in the normal 249 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. course of the use of that building. That is the norm, that is the predominant approach, and that is what is suggested in this ordinance. We also discovered that many of these ordinances allowed you to designate an individual feature, not an entire room. We think that is useful and it is also encompassed in this ordinance. I think it is worth pointing out that in these other cities, the use of interior designations is rather small. I'll give you what I think is, in a certain sense, the worst case example, and that is Chicago. Chicago has, we believe, designated about 120 interiors of buildings, of historic buildings, far more than we discovered in most other cities, but Chicago has 6,500 buildings which are designated as historic. So the percentage of interiors, even though the number may seem large, is very small in relation to the number of historic buildings that are designated in the city 250 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. as a whole. I think that is likely to be the case in Philadelphia, that we have presently 12,000, 10,000 approximately buildings listed on the Register. I think the number of historic interiors that will be added would be rather small and would be quite selective. There are several issues that have been brought up in this discussion which I would just like to comment on first. Mr. Sherman has mentioned the fact that the Historical Commission intends to discuss this bill in executive session on June 13th. I would simply point out that if the Commission intends to take any formal action on the bill, it needs to do it in a public session, in a session in which the public could comment on it. An executive session on June 13th would not fulfill that requirement. Therefore, the Commission could not really take any action on this bill until 251 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. July. Secondly, is there a reason to approve this bill now?
No, there is not. There is nothing that is threatened that this bill will help us with at the moment, not even the Boyd Theatre. Is there a reason not to pass this bill now? No, there is not a reason not to pass this bill now either. Councilman Green I think is correct in saying that the Commission can proceed with the rules and regulations under the general auspices of this bill. It is my own concern that once you do that, we will discover things that have not been addressed and we will perhaps come back in the fall to retweak this bill. And I'm thinking ahead here in terms of, for example, what is the distinction between the alteration of a historic interior and the demolition of a historic interior? How much of an interior must be demolished for it to be a demolition as an alteration? This is not clearly 252 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. identified in the ordinance. It's already a problem with buildings. It will be a problem, I think, when it comes to interiors that may or may not lead to changes that should be made in the ordinance. We don't know that. We can find those things out by writing the rules and regulations, and if we find that there are no further changes necessary, that's fine. And if we find out there are some, we can come back to City Council for further refinement of this bill. So I would say on the issue of do it now or not do it now, either case can be made. There is no reason not to and there is no reason -- whatever the opposite of that is. You can do it or you can't do and it makes no difference. There are a few parts of this bill I'd like to just draw your attention to that I think are important. The latest amendment includes, in describing the features of an interior, the volume 253 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. of the space. If you think of this room, if we came in here and built a two-story new room sitting in this space that didn't touch any of the walls, we would have destroyed this interior, even though we would not have touched the walls, because we would have lost this volume of space. That is an important part of this bill. I am concerned about the section of this bill that allows interiors that are no longer accessible to the public to be designated. The wording has been changed to try to refine it, but I think it is still a difficult part of what is being proposed and a part that I fear is subject to fairly easy legal appeal. If public accessibility is the test and an interior has not been accessible to the public for eight of ten years, even if it hasn't been physically changed, what are our grounds for designating it? I'm not sure whether it 254 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. should be included in the bill or not. I am cautious about it, but I definitely feel that if that broad authority is in the bill, the Historical Commission has to look at some very explicit reasons as to why an interior that is no longer accessible to the public, even in its unchanged state, should be designated. And I think there is an issue there that requires a lot more careful thought. Lastly, I do support what has been said about the need for a clear set of rules and regulations before any designations occur. If that were not the case, I think we would be subject to legal challenges purely for procedural grounds. In closing, I have one further remark, and you'll forgive me for taking the opportunity of making this remark again. The Historical Commission has an excellent staff in John Farnham and has an excellent Executive Director. It 255 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. is insufficiently staffed for its present workload. I have appeared before City Council for the last three years of the budget hearings asking for an increase in the budget and staffing of the Historical Commission. The Commission can barely do its current work.
There are five historic districts that have been sitting in the Commission's office for four to seven years waiting for action, in which the Commission has been unable to do anything because it does not have the staff. There are, I think, two districts in Councilman Curtis Jones' councilmanic district. These are districts that the community organizations have wanted to have protected by the City. The Commission does not have the staff to implement it. This bill adds a new function, which the Commission does not have the staff to implement. And for the Commission now to be running around writing the rules and regulations to go 256 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. with this ordinance and continuing to ignore the districts which have been sitting there for five years I think is a serious problem. Therefore, I am challenging you if you vote for adding additional responsibility for the Commission, then in the 2009 fiscal budget find $300,000 to give them the staff needed to implement what we need to do in Philadelphia. Thank you.
Just for the record, we want to recognize your long history in the City, and I had an opportunity to meet you up close and -- I was an intern when you were head of OHCD. And I look forward to working with you. And for the record, what part of town do you live in?
Okay. I was 257 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. trying to get you in the 4th, but that's okay. I look forward to working with you and I appreciate your input.
Thank you very much. Thank you for reminding me of my age. And I would like to take the opportunity just to point out that when you mentioned Conversation Hall, Conversation Hall was my office when I was the Director of OHCD and I discovered the room hidden above the plywood of my office, and I'm happy to say that was part of the process that started its restoration.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Madam President, and thank you, Mr. Gallery, for all your hard work and for your testimony today. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I heard you say on a 258 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. number of occasions in your testimony where you did have concerns with some portions of the bill and you have a greater concern that even if it were passed -- and, again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth -- that staff at the Historical Commission would not be able to even deal with these issues. So again I go back to my original comments earlier, and I think your comments and statements support why I think a couple of months, 90 days I guess it would be from now until the time we return, to go over some of these issues and even talk to the Administration about possibly adding additional funding to the Historical Commission and working with you and other people who are familiar with these issues on creating the bill, without gutting it obviously, but adding things to the bill 23 that might give protections to those areas that you have already raised concern about. 259 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. I mean, I want to see something happen, so everyone understands and the sponsors of the bill understand. I think this is important, but I'm hearing conflicting statements even from those who are in support of the bill, who have had a lot more time than I have and I would assume my colleagues have had to have a discussion on this issue.
I'd like to be able to give you a definitive answer, but I've tried to suggest to you that there isn't a definitive answer. First of all, let me just say that Councilman Green's staff has done a very conscientious job of reaching out not only to the Commission but to myself, to others who are concerned with this, and the reason this bill has been amended several times since it was introduced is through an effort on their part to build into the bill issues about which we have been concerned. I think the bill is 260 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. considerably improved from the version in which it was introduced and I'm not -- I would not be uncomfortable if this bill 5 were passed. The choices that you have are pass the bill, develop the rules and regulations. You may find at the end of that process that there's no 9 inconsistency between the rules and regulations and the bill and the bill is fine. You may find at the end of that process that there are some inconsistencies that actually need changes in the ordinance. We do not know that because this bill has happened so fast that none of us have really had the opportunity to trace through the whole ordinance, but what I'm saying to you -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Could I interrupt you just for a second? I need to interrupt. That goes to the heart of this issue with me. And I can't speak for my colleagues. And I admire the work that's been done. I am certain, because I have staff and I know how hard -- staff 261 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. works very hard on bills that I would like to have introduced and ultimately introduce. But I hear about three weeks or four weeks since the bill has been introduced, there's been some interaction with the Preservation Alliance, with the Planning Commission, with the Historical Commission, but three weeks is not a lot of time and there are those issues that are still outstanding. And I hear you, John. You're kind of saying -- I know you're anxious to get something done, and I can respect and appreciate that, but for all intents and purposes, the time that we're asking that we be allowed to continue to work on it collectively -- again, I can speak only for myself. I don't believe my staff has had any interaction on this legislation and I'm not -- I'm only one of 17, so I can't speak for the rest of the folks, but I have a district, as you know, that has probably -- I don't know where the 150 or so properties has come from. Probably a 262 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. vast majority of those are in my district. Maybe some of those properties are already being looked at for development. I don't want to come up with something that may add another layer of bureaucracy to potential development, and at the same token, I don't want just development to happen without any regard for the property. So that's why I'm looking for some time here. If someone can show me the list of those properties, at least as it relates to my district, and if I can identify any of those properties that are already being considered for development, I'd like to engage the developer at least in that part of the conversation to let him or her know what may be expected of them. I mean, there's a lot of stuff in the pipeline in this city, and that doesn't necessarily mean that we should just, well, because of that, we got to go back, stop the -- put the brakes on, no 263 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. more development until we get this done. I'm not being that radical, but I think that common courtesy should be allowed with those developers among the parties, the interested parties, to develop, as best we can, a bill that addresses the majority of those properties. We always know that as time passes, we'll figure out things and say, Oh, you know what, this isn't working as well as we thought it would, we need to come back and revisit it.
But three weeks on a bill of this importance and it has such a broad impact, could have the potential for very broad impact, asking for 90 days, I don't think we're asking for too much.
I think you're correct in saying that a broader public discussion could make the bill stronger and have support in the future, and as I said before, I know of no instance at the present time, including the Boyd Theatre, in which a delay of this bill would have any effect. 264 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Any other questions or comments of Mr. Gallery?
Thank you. I'd like to ask Lewis Rosman to join you. Lewis, Mr. Gallery testified that he had concerns about demolition, alteration, et cetera, and some other concerns. Are those not things that are addressed in the rules and regulations by the Historical Commission itself?
It's in the 265 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. ordinance.
I'm sorry. I was out of the room during the beginning of Mr. Gallery's testimony. I'm not quite sure I understand what the issue is.
Mr. Gallery, your objection to those definitions applies to exterior facades in the way the ordinance currently works; isn't that correct? I mean, there's lots of ambiguities about those terms that apply to exterior facades, and I think what you're saying --
And we don't know what their application will be with respect to interiors.
Right. And the definitions are in the ordinance. And so if we felt that what constitutes an alteration to suit an interior needed to be more carefully defined, that section 266 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. of the ordinance, not the rules and regulations, the ordinance needs to be changed. And that's the concern that I have, is that once --
But will we know if those definitions need changing until we're putting this into practice with rules and regulations?
Well, yeah. Of course, we could know that. We could sit down right now and say suppose this were passed, how would the definition of "alteration" work. We could determine that it wouldn't work and we could decide how we should revise the ordinance.
And the concern that I have is that -- I mean, I think if I went to the issue of delay, the 267 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. argument would be if we had more time, we would know that and we would pass one ordinance. If we pass the current ordinance and we go through it and we find that it doesn't work, that would be perhaps a second argument. And you could do either one.
Just so you understand, Mr. Gallery, if we pass this out of Committee today, that does not pass the full Council.
And what I've talked to the Historical Commission and the Planning Commission about is that they will meet and get back to me, and if they agree with your concern after Friday, the 13th --
I'd like to just go on the record here that Friday, the 13th, an executive session --
They are not meeting to determine whether or not they 268 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. have to support this bill. In fact, their approval is not required.
I understand that, but they have no authority to make any comment on this bill. It's not on their agenda. They have no authority --
I don't want to turn this into a debate about open records law, because that's nothing that you and I are going to solve here today as to how they're going to conduct their meeting on Friday. So my point is, they're the experts that work for the City of Philadelphia. If they come back and have your concern about those definitions, then we'll hold the bill and we'll work through the summer. But it's my intention to get this bill out of Committee today and then work with yourself, the Historical Commission and others to write rules and regulations over the summer that we can all agree with, and if -- and I don't think it's going to happen, Mr. Gallery, but if some 269 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. changes need to be made to the ordinance 3 as a result of having gone through that process, then I think that we would make them. And what I'd like to know is, you must not have been aware of that, that that was the process that we were talking about.
I mean, first of all, it's the process I suggested to your staff, so I'm aware of it. Secondly, I've tried to be clear -- and it's hard to be clear here -- there are two choices. The choice you're recommending --
-- and the choice that Mr. DiCicco is suggesting, and both choices are equally possible. One is not preferable over the other.
Well, I think Councilman DiCicco and I are basically saying the same thing, although we don't understand it. But it's my intention to move this bill out of 270 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. Committee and then work with the Historical Commission and others to put these things in place so that we can pass it the first session of Council coming back in the fall if everything is in order.
Excuse me. That was not -- I don't think that has ever been said to anyone except what you said right now. It certainly has never been said to me. I don't think it was --
That plan would allow the bill, approved by this Committee, to be further amended before it goes to City Council.
That procedure would be fine. 271 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc.
Thank you. Good afternoon. Are you going to testify? Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Lori Salganicoff. I'm actually representing myself. I'm an historic preservation consultant and did the work that led to the report for the Preservation Alliance, and the Councilman asked that I be here to answer any questions that he might have about the report that was done about the 20-some cities that also have preservation ordinances to protect interiors. I do not have testimony.
Thank you. Councilman Green, do you have any questions for the witness?
No. It's a 272 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. great report that you wrote, and if it's okay with the Preservation Alliance, I'd love to pass it on to the people in City Council. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you for your patience. You've been waiting all day, I know. I would ask Mr. McPherson to please call the next witnesses. MR. McPHERSON: The next panel is Sharon Pinkenson, John Nivala, Craig Schelter, Howard Haas. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Welcome, Sharon. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Yes. My name is Sharon Pinkenson and I'm from the Greater Philadelphia Film Office. Council President Verna, 273 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. Councilman Green and all of my City Council friends and colleagues, I thank you very much today for the opportunity to address this most respected City Council so that I may testify in support of Bill No. 080527. I have served as the Executive Director of the Greater Philadelphia Film Office for the past and a half years. 11 As an economic development office, GPFO 12 is responsible for attracting production 13 to the entire Philadelphia area, 14 including all five counties, and 15 expanding the City's facilities and 16 incentives for the purpose of growing the region's film, television and video industry. " I'm 274 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. pleased to be here today to give testimony in support of Bill No. 080527 amending Section 14-2007 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Historic Buildings, Structures, Sites, Objects and Districts," to permit the historic designation of the public interior portion of buildings, and making technical changes, all under certain terms and conditions. Since 1992, the work of the Greater Philadelphia Film Office has stimulated well over $2 billion of economic impact to our region through film, television and video production. It is apparent that the film industry in Philadelphia is growing, that production has doubled since last year, that the productions are filling our hotel rooms and restaurants, hiring our local crew and actors, paying state and local taxes, and creating excitement for all of our citizens. It is broadly accepted that the film industry is indeed good business 275 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. for Philadelphia. When filmmakers make decisions about where to shoot their films, many factors are considered. Because film is a business, one driving force in decision-making is always financial. S. state and city are competing for this very lucrative filming activity by creating tax incentives and providing free services to lure the business. The other reason production companies, however, leave Hollywood surrounds creative considerations. Like other businesses, it's about location, location, location. In Philadelphia, we are uniquely fortunate because we are blessed with magnificent, intact historic locations to offer filmmakers, as well as a brilliant new skyline filled with some of the finest examples of modern architecture. But any city can build new skyscrapers. What makes Philadelphia 276 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. truly unique is the ambience of our city that comes from the wealth of our beautiful, intact locations, exterior and interior. We must preserve them or we will suffer the demise of cities that have nothing unique to offer and we will lose our attraction to filmmakers. Imagine what would have happened if in 1992 when I received a call from Jonathan Demme, the Director who was then renowned for "The Silence of the Lambs," when he told me that he needed a city with a wonderful courthouse, a magnificent courtroom for several weeks so he could film a movie about a lawyer fired from his law firm because he had contracted the AIDS virus. " Imagine what would have happened if in 1995 when Terry Gilliam came to scout and there hadn't been still 277 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. the great Train hall, which served as an airport terminal, or if there hadn't been a classic department store like Wanamakers or if there were no longer the grand old interiors of the Richmond and Delaware Power Plants to portray the underworld prison, or the Met, the sad old Metropolitan Opera House on North Broad Street, or the magnificence of the domed Memorial Hall serving as a lecture hall. There would have never been a movie named "12 Monkeys" in Philadelphia.
Imagine "Witness" without 30th Street Station and the power of the scene where the young Amish boy standing in that magnificent hall looks up to be transfixed by the angel statue and then is witness to a horrific murder. Imagine the film "Annapolis" without the final boxing scene shot in The Legendary Blue Horizon. I cannot. Can you imagine a restaurant scene with Bruce Willis and Robert Wright Penn created in the Curtis Center in 278 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. front of the Tiffany mural anywhere else? " From the time that the Pennsylvania Convention Center was built and the Philadelphia Civic Center was left vacant until it was demolished just a few years ago, we made movies and TV shows in that historic 40,000 square foot arena, like "The Sixth Sense," "Unbreakable," "Beloved" with Oprah Winfrey and Danny Glover, and the TV series "Hack," and then it was demolished. Even though long before there were movies there, the Civic Center's hollowed arena allowed Philadelphia to place host to the Sixers, the Flyers, three national political conventions, Frank Sinatra and the Beatles and much more. But now it is lost forever. 279 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. If we lose these important interior treasures of our great city, it will be like losing our collective hearts, for it is the grandeur of the rooms that imbue our lasting memories and serve our economy, and we cannot live as fully without them. Sure, we can and will build sound stages so that movies can create settings in our city, but they won't choose to use the sound stages in Philadelphia if we do not have real spaces to lure them. I cringe at the idea of losing the Divine Lorraine Hotel, and I know that Philadelphia Director Lee Daniels, who shot "Shadowboxer" there with Cuba Gooding, Jr. and Helen Mirren just a couple years ago, would be devastated to know its interiors will soon be lost forever. The DreamWorks movie "Transformers 2" is in town and soon will be transforming City Hall Courtyard into a Paris cafe. Without locations like 280 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. these, we might as well be Cincinnati or Houston. And, finally, last night I attended the world premiere of M. " Here is my ticket. The premiere was held at the Ziegfeld Theatre in New York City, but it is clear that the premiere of the movie by Philadelphia's most prestigious and successful filmmaker would have been held at the historic Boyd Theatre were it preserved and restored. I will never forget the night that the movie "Philadelphia" had its world premiere at the then-Sam Eric/Boyd Theatre, nor will I forget seeing "South Pacific" there with my parents when I was a little girl. Ladies and gentlemen of City Council, it is not too late. Please act now and save the Boyd Theatre and protect other great interior landmarks. They are our heart and you have the power to keep 281 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. it beating. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you very much. Questions or comments? (No response.)
Thank you. Mr. Schelter, if you have testimony that's prepared, we will give a copy to the stenographer and perhaps you can abbreviate your comments, and your testimony will be transcribed in full.
Madam Chairwoman and members of the Rules Committee, good afternoon.
My name is Craig Schelter. , 1735 Market Street, 51st Floor, Philadelphia. The Development Workshop, Inc. 282 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. is a Pennsylvania not-for-profit trade organization organized in accordance with Section 501(c)(6) of the Internal Revenue Code dedicated to promoting real estate development in Philadelphia and to help the City realize its full potential, create construction and permanent jobs, increase the tax base and support development in the context of vibrant, safe neighborhoods. The Workshop monitors the activities of local government that bear on planning, zoning and development; advocates for sensible planning and development decisions; and will make its views known through an active government and community relations effort. While the Development Workshop applauds the intent and efforts of the bill sponsors, Bill Green, William Greenlee and Blondell Reynolds Brown, to protect the interiors of Philadelphia's historic building interiors, we believe that action by the Rules Committee is 283 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. premature at this time. Members of the Development Workshop have direct experience taking the sometimes enormous risk that ultimately lead to the appropriate conversion of historic properties. I come to this conclusion after having been involved in making historic preservation actually happen on numerous complicated transactions over 34 years in the public sector at the City Planning Commission and at the Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation and in advocating for compatible conversions of historic properties as a private consultant since 2002. Participating firsthand in the rebirth of 700 to 714 Spruce Street by Pennsylvania Hospital, the conversion of Lits to Mellon Bank Center, the creation of the Philadelphia Historic Preservation Corporation, the redevelopment of the Reading Headhouse as a Marriott Hotel, the preservation of the Reading Trainshed 284 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. as a showpiece of Pennsylvania Convention Center, the conversion of PSFS into the Loews Hotel, the conversion of the City Hall Annex into a Marriott Courtyard by Brickstone Realty, the conversion of the Naval Hospital by Toll Brothers, the conversion of the Girard Bank, Mellon, into the Ritz Hotel, the reuse of the numerous properties at the Philadelphia Naval Business Center have taught me and the development community many lessons learned the hard way. The mixed-use conversion of Wanamaker's department store, Strawbridge & Clothier, the St. James on Washington Square and the Suburban Station Office Building are also instructive. In each of these instances certain commonalities existed. One, each project required an extraordinary commitment of public dollars and/or financial incentives. Two, each had a redeveloper committed to a quality product, hiring 285 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. well-qualified professional design, engineering and construction and legal services. Three, each had a developer that shunned historic certification of the projects' interiors. This is not to say that they did not work actively with the Historic Commission or the Planning Commission locally or the State Historic and Museum Commission in Harrisburg. Four, each was concerned with the impact that the certification would have on third-party lenders and those who might purchase the property on completion. Five, and most importantly, each was concerned about the impact that interior certification would have on opponents of a redeveloper and what that would mean in terms of time, consultant, construction and market risk. In the bill before you today, there are insufficient specific guidelines for what might be construed an 286 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. historic interior, nor a specific process for consideration before the Historical Commission. What about lobbies for train stations, college buildings for assembly, library lobbies, places of religious assembly?
In an effort to assist City Council in its deliberations on this bill, the Developer Workshop would like to bring some of its developer members to talk firsthand about what transactional elements made their project a go or a no 14 go, such as the role of federal tax credits, TIF financing, development bonuses. This could be achieved over the summer. We believe it would show that no 18 two transactions are alike and that each involved trusting relationships between City government and developers, coordination among planning and development agencies, a willingness to be flexible with regard to interiors and leadership from the top. Again, we would recommend that 287 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. the Rules Committee table this bill for further consideration also given that we were unable to ascertain that the Historical Commission and the City Planning Commission have had ample opportunity to weigh in on the questions raised, as we want to present our views directly to them as well. Thank you for this opportunity to testify before you today. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.
I certainly want to thank you for abbreviating your remarks. We really appreciate it. Good afternoon, Doctor.
Good afternoon. My name is John Nivala. I'm a Professor of Law at Widener Law School. Among the subjects that I teach are administrative law and property, and I have written articles on historic preservation, including one which my editor said went 288 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. into paralytic detail about the Dream Garden designation incident in Philadelphia. I'm going to summarize my testimony also. I was asked to explore caselaw involving interior designation. It was a very limited search. It turned up very few cases, three from New York and one from DC. As far as I can tell, there's never been a case that has overturned a historic preservation ordinance dealing with interiors, nor accepted any constitutional challenge, either state or federal, to the application of those ordinances to an interior. The key is, do you have a clearly articulated public purpose, do you have clearly articulated standards by which that purpose is to be applied, and do you have clearly articulated procedures by which those standards will be implemented. Those seem to be the key, I 289 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. think, between the proposal, which I favor, and the rules and regulations which have been developed by the Historical Commission. I believe that this proposal would withstand certainly a facial challenge. We would have to see about it as applied, but I think there's enough precedent that we have learned how to apply these to interiors. Geez, for an academic, that's short.
Thank you so much. Any questions or comments from members of the Committee? (No response.)
Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Thank you. Hello. 290 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. My name is Howard Haas. I am a Center City resident, attorney and President of Friends of the Boyd. That's the non-profit organization of volunteers devoted to ensuring the survival, restoration and reopening of Center City's last movie palace, the Boyd Theatre at 19th and Chestnut. The Boyd closed in 2002, then known as the Sam Eric. Exactly six years ago today, on June 11, 2002, we organized our group because the then-owner of the Boyd Theatre was seeking to demolish it. The designation of historic theatres in Philadelphia began with the designation of the Boyd Theatre in 1988. The court battles that followed resulted in the loss of interior preservation law, but the State Supreme Court suggested that the ordinance could be amended to protect interiors. Twenty years later now we are here today discussing that possibility. The Boyd has recently been 291 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. renominated, as you were told, for the Philadelphia Register of Historic Places, but as you were told, without passage of this bill, there is no legal protection of the Boyd's interior, which is Philadelphia's most significant art deco interior. Movie palace historians and art deco authorities have proclaimed the Boyd's interior an art deco masterpiece and a national treasure. Everybody who visits the Boyd is awestruck by how gorgeous it is. Much of Philadelphia's appeal is in its 300 years of history. If you travel anywhere in the world to another large city and pick up a Frommer or Fodor or another travel guidebook, you will find a paragraph in a chapter on theatres. The paragraph reads something like this: 1920s former movie palace saved from destruction by preservation activists and beautifully restored to its original elegance, with grand lobbies and a huge ornate auditorium. The theatre 292 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. presents musicals, concerts and an occasional film festival. That paragraph is missing from Philadelphia guidebooks, and the interior of the Boyd Theatre is still in danger of being gutted. And I will say this: A new owner could be selected this week and at any time, as you heard today, they could apply for and receive a permit to completely demolish the interior of the Boyd Theatre as long as it doesn't affect the exterior. That's the state of the law. Boston, New York City, Chicago, Washington, DC, San Francisco and Los Angeles have laws that protect historic interiors, including many movie palaces. Now is the opportunity to restore Philadelphia's interior preservation law. There are many Philadelphia landmarks whose interiors have no legal protection, such as the Forrest Theatre, the former Benjamin Franklin Hotel, the main floor in Corinthian Room of Strawbridge & 293 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. Clothiers and on South Broad Street, Wachovia Bank's grand hall, Fidelity. Buildings do not only have pretty faces they present to the public. Some buildings also have extremely impressive and important interiors that are open to the public, and those too should be legally protected. Please pass the legislation proposed by Councilman Green so Philadelphia's most wonderful historic interiors can be protected for future generations. Thank you for your time.
Thank you very much. We thank you all for your patience. Thank you for waiting. Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Seeing no one, this will conclude our public hearing. We will now go into our 294 6/11/08 - RULES - BILL 080080, etc. public meeting. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco regarding Bill No. 080080. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Madam President. I'm offering an amendment that has been circulated to the members of this Committee. So I move for the adoption of the amendment to Bill No. 10 080080. (Duly seconded.)