COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, October 28, 2004 2:20 p.m. - - - - BILL 040595 - Amending Title 9 of The Philadelphia Code (Regulation of Businesses, Trades and Professions") by amending Section 9-605 ("Towing")... (Held until December 8, 2004, 2:00 p.m.) BILL 040788 - An Ordinance amending Chapter 9-600 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service Businesses," by adding a new section regulating the hours of operation of commercial establishments located on residential blocks and providing for penalties, all under certain terms and conditions. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN JUAN RAMOS - - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 I N D E X BILL 040788 OTIS HAIGLER, JR., L&I............... BONITA CUMMINGS...................... 16 TINA LECOFF.......................... 25 PENELOPE GILES....................... 33 SANDRA PUGH.......................... 37 KENNY ALI............................ 41 DION ROBINSON........................ 43 MAJEEDAH RASHID...................... 45 ROSEANNE ADAMS....................... 47 ED HAZZOURI, Sunoco.................. 48 VIRGINIA ROCKEFELLOW, Sunoco......... 49 KERRY WILSON......................... 64 3 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
Welcome to the L&I Committee hearing. I'll introduce the members here. We have Councilman Clarke, Councilman Rizzo, Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown, myself Councilman Mariano and assorted cast and characters to join us. We're just going to do the one bill. Bill No. 040595 by Councilman Rizzo is going to be held until December 8 at 2:00 p.m. The Clerk will read Bill No. 040788.
Bill 040788, an ordinance amending Chapter 9-600 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service Businesses," by adding a new section 16 regulating the hours of operation of commercial establishments located on residential blocks and providing for penalties, all under certain terms and conditions.
Testimony from Mr. Haigler from Licenses and Inspections.
Good day and good afternoon, Councilman Mariano and Members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., the 4 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 Director of Legislative Affairs for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today, I'm here to provide testimony on Bill 5 040788 which, if enacted, will add a new section to the Philadelphia Code regulating the hours of commercial establishments located in residential neighborhoods. The Department of Licenses and Inspections offers no objection to the enactment of this bill and will enforce its provisions should it be passed by Council and signed into law by the Mayor. We will respond to any complaint received regarding a business which violates the provisions of this ordinance once it becomes law and take appropriate enforcement action against persons found in violation. Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony on this bill. And I'll be happy to answer questions. Also, I'd like to add that we will also be seeking the assistance of the Police Department with our efforts to enforce the provisions of this bill because L&I is not a 5 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 24-hour-a-day operation. We would have to seek the assistance of a 24-hour-a-day operation to help with the enforcement of the provisions of this bill.
Thank you, Mr. Haigler. Councilman Clarke has some opening statements he would like to make.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, briefly what I wanted to state is that this particular bill grew out of a rising concern relating to primarily residential communities, more often than not single family dwellings on blocks, maybe minimal multi-family units. We essentially have a relatively quiet residential block, but we have this phenomenon where we have these stores that open up, be it on the corner or sometimes in the middle of the block, and they stay open virtually all night. And we found in a substantial amount of areas in the City of Philadelphia that these stores continue to 6 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 be havens for individuals who ultimately create crimes. We recently had a situation where a young man was shot as a result of a gambling debt that happened as a result of this environment. You can travel the streets 2, 3 o'clock in the morning, these will be the only facilities open. And for some reason, it attracts negative activity. And we believe that people who live on quiet residential blocks should not have to succumb to the problems associated with these types of facilities. So we would simply attempt to limit the hours so we don't have this late-night activity that has proven to be detrimental to, not only the community, but actually some of the individuals who frequent these locations. That's what we're attempting to do. I understand, based on a number of calls that we have gotten, that there are some concerns that probably need to be -- and there will actually be a couple of amendments to address some areas that may not fall within 7 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 the categories associated with our problematic locations, and we'll hopefully be able to address that. And we'll ask for individuals to testify and talk about their specific concerns. And hopefully, at the end of this hearing we will be able to address those concerns based on the amendments that we'll be offering today. Thank you.
Thank you, Councilman. Anyone else want to testify? Is there a Sue Sierra here? Any questions for Mr. Haigler before Ms. Sierra speaks? (No response.)
Councilwoman Krajewski. I told you other characters would join us. Councilwoman Krajewski, thank you for joining us.
You're welcome, Councilman. 8 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
Good afternoon, Chairman Mariano and Members of Council. I very much appreciate the chance to testify before this Committee. My name is Sue Sierra, and I'm the Policy Coordinator with the Philadelphia Association of Community Development Corporations. PACDC and our members are strongly in support of the goal of this bill to improve neighborhood quality-of-life by closing down establishments that are open late hours in residential neighborhoods. " Since our members are working every day to try to improve quality of life in our neighborhoods, they are extremely aware of the negative things that can happen when you have inappropriate uses like late-night operations, stop-n-goes, in residential communities. 9 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 I'm also personally affected by this issue, though. I'm a resident of the Pennock section of Germantown. And, in fact, my house and bedroom are directly across the street from a Sunoco gas station that went hours 7 about 18 months ago. Before then, it had been 8 closed between the hours of 11:00 at night and 9 6:00 in the morning. So for the past 18 10 months, I've been a front-row witness to the 11 negative effects to having this 24-hour gas 12 station in our residential neighborhood has 13 had on our community. 14 The gas station creates traffic 15 through the neighborhood at all hours of 16 night. It creates loud conversations in the 17 parking lot, music blaring. During the month 18 of August alone, my partner and I had to call 19 across to the gas station at night to try to 20 get them to try and quiet customers down at 21 least 30 times just in that one month, and 22 that's a significance impact on quality of 23 life. And I don't think this type of use is 24 appropriate for a quiet residential neighborhood. 10 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 And it's not just the noise and the car radios. Since the gas station went 4 hours, there's been a real increase in crime 5 in the neighborhood. We've had muggings. 6 We've had break-ins. We've had shootings. 7 And most seriously, a month ago today, a young 8 man named Adam Hammer who was 17 years old was 9 shot and murdered across the street from my 10 house. 11 I was actually home at the time. I 12 heard the shooting. I was one of the first 13 people who came across the street to try to 14 give first aid to this young man. And 15 unfortunately, in the time it took me to get 16 across the street from my house to the gas 17 station, he had died. 18 Now, I don't ever want to have the 19 experience again of watching a 17-year-old kid 20 shot and left to bleed to death on the 21 sidewalk in front of my house, and I hope that 22 I never do. 23 Now, our neighborhood, we did not 24 want the gas station to open 24 hours. We predicted the kinds of problems that would 11 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 result because it had been open 24 hours in the past and had led to problems and we had gotten it to close down at night. And particularly, since this young man was murdered, we've been trying to work with the gas station and with Sunoco to have them close down at night. We've actually presented a petition that has more than 200 signatures on it -- I think it's up to 300 now -- asking them to close down. We, unfortunately, haven't found that Sunoco or the owner of the station have been particularly cooperative in that. We support the business. We want them to succeed, but we don't think they should be disrupting the quality of life in our neighborhood and we don't think they need to do that in order to succeed. Right now, we don't have any legal backing and the gas station has the legal right to be open hours no matter how 23 disruptive it is. And we really need the help 24 of City Council in order to make sure that quality of life in our neighborhood is 12 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 restored.
So usually when I'm here speaking to Council, I'm speaking as a spokesperson for more than 80 CDCs and other organizations that are working to improve communities around the City, and I'm here wearing that hat today because, as I said, PACDC supports the intent of this bill. But I'm also here because, unfortunately, I've become very personally involved in the negative impact on quality-of-life that 24-hour businesses can have in residential neighborhoods. And I and PACDC strongly support the intent of this bill. We do have some concerns. As currently written, the legislation could have unintended consequences that could harm many of the commercial corridors in our neighborhoods. For example, the definition of a residential block as a block where more than 80 percent of the businesses are dwellings; and a dwelling as a building, any portion of which, is used or intended to be used living or sleeping human occupants, would define any mixed-used 13 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 building with a commercial business on the first floor and apartments above as a dwelling. And therefore, most of our neighborhood commercial corridors seem to be residential blocks under this definition. In fact, when I circulated this bill around our membership and asked what our position should be, the Philadelphia Chinatown Development Corporation pointed out that, as written, the bill would prohibit most restaurants in Chinatown from being open after midnight. And the up and coming entertainment district at Ridge and Midvale in East Falls would also be affected by this bill. So Council staff has assured me that it's not the intent of this legislation to close down thriving entertainment districts at midnight. And I urge that the legislation be amended to correct the definition of residential area while still acting to prohibit the kind problems that we're having in my neighborhood with the gas station as well as the stop-n-goes that the Councilman spoke eloquently to. 14 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 If the bill were amended to address these issues so that it wouldn't penalize legitimate businesses, PACDC would definitely support it. I also want to point out that enforcement is key to the types of quality-of-life issues we've been talking about, and I appreciate the gentleman from L&I being here. Unfortunately, the experience of many of our neighborhoods has been that -- and this is a quote from one CDC staff person. " So I'm very glad that L&I is here and I urge L&I to respond more swiftly to the neighborhood complaints and to be more aggressive in citing businesses that are violating regulations. Without stepped-up enforcement, this legislation isn't going to be anymore than the paper it's written on. So in conclusion, please correct the problems of this bill. Please pass the bill 25 that will help my neighborhood maintain its 15 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 quality of life and help the other neighborhoods in the City where folks are here to testify. Thank you very much. And I have copies of my testimony for Council.
Thank you. Any questions for this witness? Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your testimony. With respect to the issue you refer to in Chinatown and some of the other, quote/unquote, thriving, potentially thriving commercial areas, we did take that into account. As indicated, that was not the intent of the bill, and there will be an amendment to address that concern.
I'm very glad to hear that, and I know that my members that have raised that concern will definitely be glad to hear that. Thank you, Councilman.
Any other 16 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 questions for this witness? (No response.)
Seeing none, let's go to the next one. Arlene Fields -- she's not here. Anna Rodrigues. Barbara Landers. Greg Spearman. Doug Dickson. George Bush. Nobody? Bonita Cummings is here. Bonita, come on.
Good afternoon. My name is Bonita Cummings, and I'm an elected Committee Woman, 28th Ward, 13th Division, and Director of Strawberry Mansion Community Concern. I'd like to thank Councilman Clarke for this bill. In particular, in Strawberry Mansion we have nuisance businesses on every corner, as my picture board indicates. I was in here a few weeks ago with this same board, and to date, L&I has not addressed any of these concerns. They were present in the room. The quality-of-life issues for 17 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 Strawberry Mansion are very different than maybe folks that live in other communities, in particular maybe Chinatown. I don't know if those are zoned Residential-10 properties or how they're zoned, but most of the Strawberry Mansion community is zoned R-10, and we're using residential properties to house restaurants and businesses that these properties were really not designed to hold. When you fry up 50, 60, 70 pounds of chicken, as you can see on the board, it starts to ooze down the sides of those buildings. So we have a quality-of-life issue right now in Strawberry Mansion where the ventilation systems of most of those stores is not even working properly. So we have grease that we have no accountability of when the last time it's been changed. And if we look at the definition of hydronated oils, fatty oils, things that clog up our arteries, we find that some of the health issues of our youth, our children; obesity, diabetes, and those things are coming from a direct result of these nuisance 18 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 business that sell food to our children in grease that has not been cleaned for months. There is no record regulation. We never see a grease removal truck come to those communities to take away those oils. Those oils end up in our sewer systems. They end up on our street corners. I do neighborhood clean-ups. I have removed tons and tons of carts of oil that has been poured out into plastic containers and set on corners or poured onto our street lots. That comes with the stench that old oil brings. And it's just a nuisance. So we're hoping for our neighborhood in Strawberry Mansion where it is really residential properties, residential blocks, and we have at the ends of those corners corner stores that it would be amended to 10 o'clock for us. Midnight would bring a process that we presently don't have. Most of those stores right now close between the hours of 8, 9 and 10. So we would like to see for our portion of the area that you would amend that bill to say 10 p.m. to 6 a.m.
Thank you, 19 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 Bonita. Councilwoman Donna Miller just joined us. Any questions for this witness? (No response.)
I thought for sure Councilman Rizzo would have a grease question.
In terms of the grease, though, a lot of the violence that we see in our children that they're experiencing is a direct result of fatty oils and grease that gucking up in their veins where they can't breathe, their oxygen levels are being -- you're feeding children at and o'clock in the morning who have to get up and school who haven't had a proper digestion process.
Bonita, did you give all of this stuff to the Health Department or L&I? Do you have a list of these addresses?
Give them to us 20 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 before you leave.
The Health Department -- it's not enough inspectors. The City has placed us in direct danger.
If they did one a day since you were here last, they could be done.
I just wanted to respond. As you indicated, even though I might be here representing L&I, some of the issues addressed could be under another operating department's jurisdiction, not L&I's. L&I, we enforce many things. We enforce many things against businesses and residentials and construction. But there's certain things that are just beyond L&I's control. It may be under another operating department as vested to their responsibility under the Charter. So as far as the complaints, we have 21 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 several ways of receiving complaints. I'm not aware of Ms. Cummings complaints that were actually filed. If she has filed a complaint, then she would have received a service complaint number for that complaint that she filed. I would -- without having any information in front of me, I really have no 9 way of knowing.
I wouldn't expect you to know that, but she's got a valid point.
And with the stuff that we talked at this Committee before with Councilwoman Blackwell with the stop-n-goes -- I went on that tour with her that day. And this isn't to pick on Wawa or Sunoco or anyone like that. Some of those ones I seen opened a whole new world to me. And I've been some crumby places in this world where I thought I seen a lot of things, but this is right in Philadelphia. And there was one that I couldn't believe. You were there. And then someone from Councilwoman Krajewski's 22 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 office showed me one in another neighborhood that I ride past and I never knew it existed. And this is something else. What I'm getting it is it got me to start look around a lot more. On Allegheny Avenue, for instance, for nine blocks about two blocks way from Kensington Avenue going up Allegheny going west, for nine blocks there's a Chinese -- not to Chinese people or anybody. But there's a Chinese take-out restaurant on every corner. I mean every corner for nine blocks? Now, I know without getting the lady that works for me that does the zoning, because she did for me, but before she did it, I know none of them had license for take-out. What they had was a restaurant license. That's not a restaurant. If it's a place you go in and there's Plexiglass and they're selling Chinese food, crack pipes, cigarette papers, soda, and some places you can even get beer and malt liquor -- that's a whole other issue. They're not restaurants. They are stop-n-goes and take out. And the annoying thing to us as 23 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 elected officials is, like Ms. Cummings said, without thinking about the nutritional value, they pick the poor and the impoverished neighborhoods. You don't see these things in certain areas of the City. They creep up in neighborhoods that are economically disadvantaged and where people are just too busy with surviving everyday to realize, "Hey, that's good. While I'm at work because there's not a father figure, the kids can grab some Chinese food down the street because they're and 13, they're old enough to go to 14 the store. I'll leave them 10 bucks, they get Chinese food." Well, who knows what they're eating. It doesn't have to be Chinese food, it could be Italian food, it could be anything. Councilman Rizzo's sticking up for Italian food. Not your mother's; that's a different kind of food. This is something we have to address even if it's not here today. This Committee as a whole and this Council as a whole, we have to start at looking at that. 24 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 So, Ms. Cummings, thank you. Give us a list of that.
Councilman Mariano, I just wanted to ask, in terms of these locations, can we give a cease operations because they're operating --
Get me the addresses and I'll certainly give them to the cease operation guy from L&I and the Health Department today. If you give me a piece of paper, I will fax it over to there and see what we can do.
Didn't you all take those addresses down at the last hearing?
At the last hearing when the Commissioner and the Deputy were here?
I think Bonita got pushed out last time. You really didn't get to testify last time, did you? 25 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
I'm not exactly sure about the addresses there. But I know I did accompany --
It might have already been reported. I know accompanied the Councilman on that tour. And the addresses related to the restaurants that we visited on the tour was taken down by me and turned in and they all received service numbers for a response.
So, Bonita, give us the addresses and even if they've been turned in, we'll turn them in again. Let's see, Tina LeCoff.
Good afternoon to City Council and also to our elected official, Donna Reed Miller. Good afternoon. My name is Tina LeCoff and I've lived in the Central Germantown area since 1991. And what this bill is about is how do 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 we keep people in the City. Those of us who live in the City, and I'm speaking of Central Germantown, Pennock, Pulaski Town and very busy business corridors all around that, specifically Germantown Avenue and Cheltenham Avenue which are flourishing business areas, and that's good. But if the City is really serious about people staying in the City -- and we live in a very diverse neighborhood, little houses, big houses and rainbow people. It's wonderful. But we've got lots of challenges. And let me tell you, all these little stores are among the worst. And we have specific experience in our neighborhood, but there are also a store that we have to constantly watch at Manheim and Wissahickon which is a mini mart, and another one at Washington Lane and Germantown Avenue, and two blocks from my house there's one at Green Street and West Queen Lane. So bills like this are needed because what we need to recognize is if the majority of buildings in a neighborhood like ours, which is pending as a historic district, 27 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 most of the residential areas are zoned as R-5, which means Residential with a capital R, as I understand it. So for those of us who want to stay in the City, the mix is very important. There are many schools and churches. There is a very vibrant day life. And then all those people go home and go to bed and we come home from work and we are there at night, if you're on a normal schedule. And what we want to see happen is for the stores that provide great service during the day to be open during the day when people are there, when the majority of people are there. And then we want those people go home and get a good night's sleep also so that we can get a good night's sleep. We don't like having murders like two weeks ago. We don't like having trash blow from the parking lot at the A-Plus close to me all over the neighborhood. We don't like being panhandled when we go in to use the ATM or to buy gas or to buy chips. And these stores are not gas stations. They are food stores. They sell all kinds of soda and chips and they also 28 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 sell other products which I hope that an amended bill can address. They sell as many tobacco products and cigars and papers for smoking things as they do chips and sodas. This is very serious. The young man that was killed at the A-Plus close to my house borrowed his brother's ID, took it to the store, bought a cigar to take home and smoke with stuff in it that he was going to add, and he got shot. If there weren't cigars and there weren't papers sold in these stores where kids know they're available, that kid may not be dead. So that could have been anybody else. It was at 11 o'clock at night, which should have been close to hours when it closed. And in fact, the history of the particular store near us at Queen Lane and Green, which is part of the Sunoco chain, has been there 1986. It was open hours until 1991 when the neighborhood 22 went to Sunoco headquarters downtown and met 23 with all the big boys to get it shut down. 24 And we got it shut down, and the neighborhood returned to a peaceful residential 29 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 neighborhood at night. Last year we met with Sunoco officials again in 2003 because the owner proposed opening again hours. We 5 explained all the things that had happened for 6 the time tested period when it was open 24 7 hours. But they opened it again. And for the 8 last year and a half, it's returned to all the 9 problems that we had in the early '90s. And 10 we want to support a bill that would require 11 special businesses like these to be closed at 12 night because all around it, it's residential 13 on all sides.
So we're really looking for 14 your support of that. 15 We also think it's very serious that 16 tobacco products and blunts and single sale 17 cigars are an available at these places. 18 There's a counter as big as this desk to the 19 right of the cash register where you can see 20 it when you walk in, you can pick your 21 favorite and you can buy it and you can go 22 around corner, you can be in the parking lot 23 and you can unwrap it. So I think the 24 products that these stores sell are very important too. They are not just gas 30 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 stations. They require the owners, according to our discussions with the owner, they require the owners to buy certain products and they have a well-rounded stock. So for everybody that doesn't have a car, they're going in there to buy food. Basically, Pennock's Neighborhood Association, of which I am Chair, is asking for your support to help us maintain the residential quality of life in our neighborhood by really looking closely at these places and trying to ask them to get a decent night's sleep just like we would like to get.
Thank you. Councilwoman Miller, do you have a question?
No, I don't have a question because I'm very familiar with the problem. I do know that the hours of 22 that particular A-Plus is an issue there in 23 that neighborhood. I just wanted to add that 24 one of the reasons that I am a co-sponsor of this bill is because not just 24-hour gas 31 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 stations that are in the residential neighborhoods are posing problems, but also those take-out restaurants that are open until 3:00 and 4:00 in the morning that are in predominately residential neighborhoods. Because they're open so late, it seems to draw a lot of nuisance activities. So we're strong supporters of this bill. We had some other members from various community groups that I don't know whether they were here or not, but I wanted to come up even though I'm not a member of this committee but I am a co-sponsor of the bill to put our issues in the 8th District on record as being in strong support of this bill. We do have a number of shootings and a couple of murders that have taken place. There was a young man actually shot and killed at the gas station that she says is two blocks from her home at Queen Lane and Green maybe about four weeks ago. And we've had a number of shootings at some of the take-out restaurants in Germantown and some in the Tioga section. 32 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 So we strongly believe that if there's a way that we can regulate these hours that it would be beneficial to the quality of life of the residents in those various communities.
Thank you, Councilwoman. Any questions for this witness? Councilman Clarke.
Thank you for your testimony. This particular piece of legislation has hours of operation limited to before 12:00 and after 6:00. Personally, I've had some question as to whether or not 12 o'clock is the right time. Do you feel that 12 o'clock allows the store to stay open too late or closing too early?
Well, what I understand from neighbors who live near the store is that business substantially tapers off by 11 o'clock. And then it gets to be much more periodic, and the later it gets through the early morning, there's less and less compared 33 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 to the day. So that I think o'clock would also be something if you're paying two or three people to be there. Sometimes there's a security guard, although not all the time. And that's what happens; there's no security either. I think 11:00 would be better. And 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning for construction guys that are going through and want their first six cups of coffee and then they're going to take off.
Seeing none, Penelope Giles. Is Penelope here? Sandra Pugh.
Good afternoon. My name its Penelope Giles. I'm very nervous. This is the first time I've done like this. I really would like to sincerely thank Councilman Clarke for having us on his mailing list. 34 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
Bring the microphone closer. And if I can help you with nervousness, this is something that you should do. Think of Councilman Clarke as Tyrell Owens in that black suit he wears with the six-pack. You know where I'm going? And you'll be really relaxed. Because I happen to know that Councilman Clarke has one of them suits and he wears that body stocking around the 5th Council District at different times at night underneath certain things. And he was a star football quarterback in high school. A lot of ladies don't know that. And he's my cousin. A lot of people don't know that so I have the family pictures. (Laughter.)
You still have the suit, though. See, you're relaxed. It's all in 35 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 fun.
Thank you very much for that interesting piece of information as well. (Laughter.)
Again, my name is Penelope Giles. I'm here as a resident first of the Francisville Section of Philadelphia, second, as a member of the Concerned Residents of Francisville CDC, and thirdly as the President of that organization. And I'd like to say that I'm in full support and so is our organization of this bill. We think it's a wonderful bill. As the previous testimony has stated, there are many, many problems associated with these kinds restaurants or facilities that bring negative aspects into our community. Where I live in Francisville on Wildey Street within a four-block radius, there are three of these establishments that stay open late at night, one of which is located very near to my house, down the street from my house on 19th Street where an incident 36 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 occurred either late winter or early spring of this year where the proprietor of the establishment was killed, was murdered during a robbery attempt. So we are in support of this bill, and we are also in support of the amendment to reduce the hours to o'clock. If they could 9 close at a normal hour, 8 o'clock, it would be 10 better, but 10 o'clock I think would be very helpful. I'd also like to add that we do have a tendency to look for blame in terms of when we find there's a situation that is not to our liking. We tend to look for blame. But actually, the blame for the existence and negative effects of these businesses must be placed equally on the proprietors and the residents and leadership in the respective communities. So again, understanding that we know that we all have work to do in terms of making our communities better. That's my testimony. Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for this witness? 37 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 Councilman Clarke.
Thank you for your testimony Ms. Giles. I just wanted to make sure I heard you clear. You said your preference would be for the stores to close earlier.
I'm doing a little on-the-scene poll as we have this testimony. Thank you.
Any other witness questions for this witness? (No response.)
Pull this closer to you ma'am. It's really old fashioned.
My name is Sandra Pugh and I live in Germantown. I'm a member of the Wistar Neighborhood Council, and I'm here 38 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 today to talk about the nuisance business that's located at 5008 through Germantown 4 Avenue. It's a Chinese food store. I don't 5 have the name of the store. It opens from 6 3:30 p.m. daily to 4:00 a.m. in the morning. 7 You can go there and you can buy blunts, you 8 can buy any type of drug paraphernalia, glass 9 pipes, Top paper. The kids are out past 10 curfew. There's lots of adults loitering there. There's traffic running up and down my streets all night long. I'm just really cutting through real quick. I want to get this out the way in laymen's terms. Trash is thrown everywhere. They're very unfriendly to the customers. I don't go there. I don't patronize the store. The children are using drugs inside and outside in front of the stores. There's shootings going on, robberies going on in the neighborhood that's directly affiliated with the store. When I say affiliated with the store, it stems from the late out outings in front of the store. There's so much going on in the store, and we really need to address that. We have 39 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 addressed it as neighbors, but they continue to ignore us. Our cars are being broken into. There's been robberies on our block. There's been two killings as a direct result of the store being open late at night. A young man got shot inside of the store and he stumbled out on to my block and he fell in front of the fire hydrant and, unfortunately, he died. It's really a nuisance. I've been in Germantown for about 40 years. I've been living on this particular block about going on 13 years. And it's been so much traffic. So many bad things that's been happening. And I like Germantown. I want to stay in Germantown. I really, really do. But if it's go to go stay like it is, I'm really going to have to remove myself and my family. Like I said, there's been a lot of burglaries lately. My windows have been busted out. And I do support your bill. We need your support. The bill has to be passed. It really has to be passed. In the long run, it 40 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 will save lives because that's how bad and desperate we are as neighbors in that particular area to see that this bill is passed. Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for this witness? Councilwoman Miller. Let me just say that Councilman Ramos joined us. Thank you.
I just want to thank you for coming in and testifying. I do know that when the store was closed due to L&I and health violations, life was different, correct?
So we know that people have to operate businesses to make a living, but we also know that sometimes when those businesses are operated at hours that's not conducive to quiet living for residents and impacts their quality of life -- who is really out buying chicken wings at 4 a.m.? How many people are really out hungry that 41 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 time of morning? And that's just the fact that it's open. We have these stores all through Philadelphia pretty much. I know many of them in my district in Nicetown, Germantown, Mount Airy, Tioga. And not all of them, but many of them have the same behavior that you just described. So I just want to thank you for coming in.
Thank you. Any other questions for this witnesses? (No response.)
Any other witnesses? Come on up if I didn't call your name. State your name for the record.
I'm the CEO of Men and Women for Human Excellence. We are a social service youth agency at the corner 26th and 42 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 Cecil B. Moore Avenue. I've also been a resident of that area for the past 47 years. I'm here to talk about -- I don't want to call it a nuisance because I believe that these are problems at Bailey and Cecil B. Moore and Marston and Cecil B. Moore Avenue. Unlike the lady that just came up here, in our neighborhood, we don't -- things don't step down after 10 o'clock; they step up. And after 10:00, it gets a lot busier. We have two spots that you have two different factions of young men that hang out there. And this is in a block different. And with these young guys, you have a lot of drug wars that's happening. You have a lot of different dice games. The same issues that's been said over and over and other again. We would like to know if something could be done about these places, if they can be closed earlier than 12:00. Because you have neighbors, I mean, that's been in this hood for years, and they're scared to come outside after 7 o'clock. If they have to go to the store, they don't want to come outside. 43 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 You know what I'm saying? And also, what you have also is that the kids that we are trying to help right now, they have to see this stuff day in, day out. And the thing about it is the owners of these stores, if there are any issues going off on outside, they will not even pick up the phone and call the cops. They will just let it happen. You know what I'm saying? So I would like to know if something can be done about these problems. In my hood they are not a nuisance, they are problems, they are everyday problems. And people are really trying to see if they can actually raise the quality of life. I mean, people actually would like to see something happen. So yes, we support Bill 040788. We would like to know if ya'll can do something about getting these places to close a lot earlier, please.
Thank you, sir. Any questions for this witness? (No response.)
My name is Dion 44 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 Robinson. I want to piggy-back on what the lady in the seat before me said. In November of last year Wistar Neighborhood Council community groups were able to close down -- picket and close down one of these stores what we call a nuisance establishment. This particular store is just one of many in our community that stay open late at night. It is a club hangout for whatever goes on. They are nuisance establishments, and we were able to close them down because they had not fixed up their building. So we asked them to fix up their building because it was a mess. They closed it down. They closed it down for two months. In that tow months, the quality of life at Germantown and Wistar changed tremendously. We had people who came into my office and said, "Listen, we need to keep them closed or have them to close at an earlier hour, because after 10 o'clock, there was peace in Germantown." This is not only in this store, but there are a couple other stores in and around Germantown that's open that changes the quality of life. 45 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 These people who come and operate these stores, they are not in compliance with no kind of community organization. We've invited them to business association meetings. They always have an excuse why they can't come. If they can't meet with us on a business level or a community level, then should not be operating a business three. We support them, and if they don't support us, then they shouldn't be there. I support this bill and we support this bill in Germantown. Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for this witness? (No response.)
Seeing none, anymore witnesses? State your name for the record first.
Good afternoon. My name is Majeedah Rashid, I'm the Executive Director of the Nicetown CDC, NEC. I just want to thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. 46 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 I want to follow-up with some of the testimony that was given by my fellow NEC colleague from the Wistar NEC and also from our colleagues over at the Philadelphia Association of CDCs who we support their testimony as well. And I just wanted to have input in terms of what's going on over in Nicetown. I just had a meeting this morning with Officer Keys and Officer Lukitis (ph), a team of members from Safe Corridors and Mothers in Charge, one of our residents, Verese McPherson (ph), who can't be with us this afternoon. She would have been here, but she's unavailable. And they wanted to make sure that I was able to convey that we are trying to organize ourselves with the agencies available in the City as well as the residents and to mobilize other residents to stand up and support bills like this and anything that will help us to make a difference in our neighborhoods. There's one establishment in our area at Bristol and Hicks Street we've had numerous complaints about, staying open late 47 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 at night, the paraphernalia that they sell, a lot of disrespect. And some of our residents have taken it upon themselves to enter these establishments at certain times of night just to see what's going on and encouraging other residents not to have fear. And what happens a lot of times is there's a lot of fear involved with why people don't report things, document things. And we're trying to encourage our residents to not have fear organize themselves in a way to gather this information, bring it back to our team at the NEC office and we as a result of that will report it to the proper authorities as well as our Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller. We support this bill and anything like it that will help us reestablish a better quality of life, safety and security in our neighborhood. And again, we're partnering with every City agency that's tasked with this kind of endeavor as well as mobilization of the residents in Nicetown.
Thank you, ma'am. 48 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 Anyone have any questions? (No response.)
My name is Roseanne Adams. I'm Executive Director of Northern Liberties, but I'm here to read a statement today from the President of Northern Liberties. "The Northern Liberties Neighbors Association is community bounded by the Girard Avenue to Spring Garden, Sixth Street to Delaware Avenue. As advocates for this urban neighborhood, we welcome Bill 040788. This bill would benefit and protect not only the residents of Northern Liberties but the quality of life for all residents across all Philadelphia neighborhoods. If anything, we would welcome a more restrictive version of this bill. "Thank you, Councilman Clark, for introducing this legislation. "Respectfully, Matt Ruben."
Thank you. 49 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 Any questions? (No response.)
Seeing none. Anymore witnesses? Ed, you can go first if you want. State your name for the record.
Ed Hazzouri, H-A-Z-Z-O-U-R-I. I represent the approximately 4,000 Sunoco employees in the Delaware Valley. We certainly appreciate the seriousness of this issue and actually appreciate being welcomed to the table to try to figure it out by Councilman Clarke. With me is Virginia Rockefellow. Virginia runs our retail operations in the region and has experience both in Philadelphia and other places in the northeast, and she'll begin.
You have a 50 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 statement?
This one that we're talking that the first lady with the blond hair mentioned about the youth dying there, that's one of your stores, correct.
A franchisee owns that? Or does the Sunoco own these stores?
Sunoco owns the real estate, and the franchisee leases the facility and runs it. It's his livelihood.
How much control do you have over the franchisee, as 51 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 far as hours go?
If you tell them that they can only be open until 11:00 or 12:00 at night, that's pretty much it, right?
That it is except the reality here is this franchisee came to us and told us that he was trouble making it financially, and without being able open during the hours midnight to 6:00 he was ready to close shop. It's made a significant difference in his business. When we met with him to address his concerns, we met with representatives of the neighborhood to try to understand what some of the issues were and to try to address those going forward. And we began having him open hours at his request. 20 During that time period, his sales increased 21 20 percent. That's critical because that's a 22 difference for a small businessman between 23 making it and not making it. 24
Remind us again where this is. 52 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
Did you meet with the community during this process? Did you have go to zoning?
A representative of Sunoco met with them. I did not personally, although we did tell them today that we'd like to meet with them in the next week or so if we could. And in listening to some of the their concerns, there are things that we believe that we can do to address some of the concerns. We don't think that being closed during the hours of midnight to 6:00 is what the right answer is. We have removed the pay phone from the facility. As of yesterday, our franchisee has cease selling individual cigars. If there are things like that we can do to address some of the things that they're talking about, we feel that meeting with them and addressing those concerns on a localized basis would be appropriate. 53 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
Who's responsible for security, the franchisee or company. Would it be left up to the franchisee individually to hire, say, an off-duty Philadelphia Policeman to stand guard there?
That would be the franchisee's responsibility. But since this incident, we've been working with the police force and local community watch. The franchise has put in an extensive security system, and we are very supportive of that will.
How many people work in there for hours? You got two or 17 three people a shift? 18
On the third 19 shift, typically you'd have about two 20 employees. You multiply that across just the 21 A-Pluses alone in the City of Philadelphia, 22 that would be about 150 people that would lose 23 jobs. 24
Are these minimum wage jobs? 54 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
Yes. One of things that I want to make sure that I mention is I'm sympathetic to the concerns of some of the businesses that aren't behaving in an orderly fashion. What we try to do with Sunoco, particular through out A-Plus convenient stores is to provide a service to the local communities there by being open, by having a clean well-run business that is meeting needs of the neighborhood. Don't forget that in addition to some of the businesses that they're talking about, Sunoco at our A-Pluses has a lot of people who come by in the middle of the night to get formula for their baby. The hospital worker on their way home picking up milk and cereal or bread for their children's breakfasts before they leave the next day. When we first reopened this facility 55 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 hours, our franchisee received so many thank-yous from neighbors other than the ones that had expressed the concerns because they felt that it was addressing a need that they had in the community. So we try to balance the interest. And certainly by removing the pay phone and working with the franchisee to remove the products that are objectionable, we are trying to meet their concerns. But we are very concerned. If you look at this across the board, Sunoco has 85 retail locations within the City of Philadelphia. To significant capital investment, 90 percent of those are run by independent businessmen, franchisees and dealers. And the impact on them if they are required to close during a portion of each business day should not be underestimated. It can be very significant. So we really want to try to meet the needs of the community but balance it in a way by operating a reputable business, not the kind of establishment that they're referring to.
Do the 56 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 franchisees -- do they come from a diversified background, or is it just some white guy from New Jersey basically.
Very few white guys from New Jersey. We have a very, very diverse franchisee population. They come from all backgrounds, as diverse as the neighborhoods they serve. Councilman Rizzo.
Councilman Mariano, our Chairman, mentioned something that I think maybe you and the franchisee could work together. When we identified when there's input from the District Councilperson that there's a problem store, do you think you could work together? He touched on a program that we have called police overtime reimbursable program where the business can hire an off-duty police officer and also a vehicle, actually a police vehicle and a police officer. I'm not suggesting that that would be around the clock, but in that period of midnight until 6:00 a.m. in the morning to have a police officer and a police car at a 57 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 location maybe randomly, not every day, maybe -- and you mentioned the one gentleman is up against it financially, so this is not inexpensive. Do you think you, the company, and the franchisee could work together and possibly provide that service to the community to at least get the situation under control?
Sunoco would certainly consider that sort of solution. Again, I think that that's a site by site consideration. But in this case, certainly. We've already contacted the local community watch group that had been working with us to patrol the facility. And quite frankly, their patrolling of the facility had fallen off a little bit because they thought it wasn't a big concern. They were not seeing a lot of criminal activity around our facility. That's sense been reinstated. And additionally, we're working with the Police Department. And in talking to the police sergeant for that area earlier today, my division manager relayed to me that he feels as if there are very few incidents or serious concerns from 58 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 his perspective relative to the other things that he deals with at this site. If that's a solution that would work, we would certainly --
The beauty of the police reimbursable overtime program is the fact that that police officer committed to you. That police officer and the patrol vehicle do not leave when there is an emergency someplace else in the area. They work for you. It would have to be a very major incident that would draw that police officer away. And I don't think -- you talked about town watch and other organizations. They're great. They do a good job. But there's nothing better than the uniformed police officer in a marked police vehicle to deter crime or to deter any type of activity.
If you'd like to get information on it, reach out to me or the Chair.
We would like to 59 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 take that information with us if we could.
Again, I'm Sue Sierra. I wanted to respond to Councilman Rizzo's suggestion about security at the gas station and at this type of establishment. Again, I was there when Adam was murdered I heard the gunshots and looking out the window immediately afterwards and was across the street trying to help the young man. And one of the things that I saw was a security guard at the gas station who was inside the convenience store, come to the door, look out and go back in the store. He didn't come out. And to be honest, I can't blame him. I mean, you mentioned that the wages that the folks who work at the store overnight are in the 5 to $6 an hour range. And if you have a security who is basically a minimum wage employee, why should he come out and risk his life when people are getting shot. You know that our neighborhood believes that the gas station needs to be closed at night, but certainly if it is going to be open at night, at a minimum we'd like to 60 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 see the kind of security that you're talking about there with an off-duty police officer or someone else who really has the tools and the ability to respond to a situation like that. We'd like to see Sunoco help to make that happen.
I have another suggestion, but I'm not going to make the suggestion publicly. After the session, I'll communicate it directly to you.
Is that something Sunoco would be willing to pay for, to have a security guard who was --
That may be something you may want to negotiate off the record after here. Anyone else with anything?
Again, I am Tina LeCoff, the Chair of the Pennock Neighborhood Group. I'd like to seek clarification on the statement that is Ms. Rockefellow just made about the town watch being in touch with her. We do not have a town watch. So I'm not 61 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 sure who she's referring to. We have been working with the 39th to get trained and to figure out if we want to start a town watch. But to my knowledge, there has not been anyone in touch with them. We have no formal organization, so if there is someone they've been coordinating with, perhaps it could help if we could coordinate with that mystery person too.
Thank you for that information. Virginia, do you want to comment on that or you just want to try to work this out afterwards?
Come up to the microphone again. The stenographer needs to hear you. This will be the individual that you have been speaking with from some sort of town watch, correct?
My division manager, Mr. Dave Maloney, is the one who had the contact with him. And his name Greg 62 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 Buccironi (ph).
I know who Greg is. Greg is City-wide town watch. He's a former Guardian Angel. He has like a private security business. He just coordinates for anywhere in the City -- I've used him at times. He's a pretty reputable guy. But I could see where you wouldn't know him because he's not from your neighborhood. He's got a sponsored City-wide town watch group that will go to problem areas. He's a former Camden policeman. I know Greg. He's a pretty straight guy. You'd have no reason to know him unless you met him.
I'm also concerned, as you can imagine, about people who may be speaking up for the neighborhood when we have a very organized neighborhood group that meets every month and makes its own decisions about what we want and how to appeal to people, whether it's our Councilperson or other elected officials or members of corporations.
Well, there's only one important election official, and 63 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 that's your Councilwoman so deal through her. I wold meet with Donna Miller and you guys could talk through her or together. She's still here somewhere. I think she just went to the ladies room. Anyone else want to testify?
I just want to add something. Again, my name is Bonita Cummings. The perception for Strawberry Mansion of the taxes that are being paid, most of my stores -- my survey shows that of 33 locations, our stores in a relatively square block radius, we have 33 same type stores. They flipped ownership every two years. So the perception of the City even receiving business privilege tax and net profits tax is just that; it's a perception. Most of the stores were not even zoned properly so nobody really knew you were there. So if you don't you're there, you're not being inspected because we don't have inspections that take place just with some type of schedule. And if we do, it's not a schedule that's close enough together to not have these nuisances take 64 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 place in the first place.
I don't think you know this, but L&I routinely doesn't inspect. There's just not enough of them. I'm not here to stick up for them. Its a problem when we're cutting taxes and then we cut revenue streams and then we don't have money -- it all has to be reported, I would suggest, through your District Councilperson. Make a hit list and give it to us and I'm sure that person will work it out.
Maybe we can do a moratorium on the ones that's still coming because if we don't have enough inspectors, then we place the residents of the City in jeopardy.
My name is Kerry Wilson from the Nicetown CDC. I was sitting here 65 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 listening and I'm listening to the hours that they're talking about that the stores stay open. It's not so -- at least in my neighborhood, it is the hours too, don't get me wrong, but it's what these stores are selling is really what draws the nuisance.
It's how they're run. You're right, it's what they're selling and how they're run,
Right. If these things weren't being sold in these stores, the crowds wouldn't really be outside. Because I was listening the town watch and the policeman being there. And the guards there to protect the store. But if they didn't sell these blunts, if they didn't sell this Charboy, if they didn't sell these glass vials, if they didn't sell --
Educate me. I got what the blunt is. What's a Charboy?
Charboy is the scouring pad that you could wash your pots with. It's made out of metal, it's like a big ball.
The old 66 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 scrubbing pad?
They put that inside the glass vials and make a screen out of it and that's what they use to do whatever they do with the drugs.
Okay. See, I learn something new every day on this job.
It's what they sell in these stores that draws the people to the store to hang out there, because these things are being sold there that you can't say you can't sell it because it's not illegal to sell it.
The people that come up with the ideas for these things should be looking for Osama bin Laden because they got great ideas for things. I could never think of something you scrub pots with to -- I mean Councilman Rizzo was joking, but he said he cleaned his white walls on his car. That's the only thing -- it's amazing. You sit up 67 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 here and you feel like an Okie because we're so out of touch. And the people in the neighborhoods know. It's just incredible. But where do you draw the line? I mean, there's a point where anything someone sells in a store can be used. I mean the stuff they clean ovens out with, people huff. So it tends to be more, in my opinion -- maybe you'll agree with me, maybe not -- who runs the stores and how their behavior is how they let people behave. Without getting into any names, there's certain convenient stores that I use regularly because of the convenience of their machine, their money machine. There's other ones I don't use because I don't want to pay the $2 fee. And some of them nicer than others.
It's a wall that we walk trying to accommodate the businessman because we do need these businesses in the neighborhood to bring jobs here, but where do we draw the line at on what we allow them to bring into our neighborhoods? 68 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
I'm sorry to delay the proceedings but as I sat here observing all the testimony, when I came to this hearing I was not aware that we were talking about Sunocos and A-Pluses and things like that. I thought that the bill was mainly focussing on Chinese restaurants that are prevalent in our communities. There's a big difference between how these establishments are ran and what kind of dialog can take place between the residents of those kinds of establishments and, say, for instance, a Sunoco and these kinds of things. I think that there probably needs to be more thought given to separating the two. In my mind, the Chines restaurants -- and again, I'm not picking on Chinese people. We know that they need to earn a living. But most times we are not able to communicate with them. We are not able to get a dialog going with them. 69 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
At least Sunoco is here listening. Other companies aren't here. We get your point. Thank you. Councilman Ramos wants to ask the Sunoco people some more questions.
I just have a quick question here. I was thinking of the Sunoco stations that are in my neighborhood or close to it. And I can't think of them that are located where they are 80 percent dwellings. How many of your stations that have your A-Plus actually are in areas where you have 80 percent home dwellings?
I can't get you an exact percentage off the top of my head. I'd have to do some research on that. But of the 47 A-Pluses that we have within the City limits, an awful high percentage of them are going to be in neighborhoods that are heavily residential in addition to some commercial use. Again, we're there to try to provide a service to the residents and it's in our interest to work with them. The more we 70 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 please them, the more they're going to patronize our facility. We're not in business to be at odds with them. We do want to address reasonable concerns, but we have to balance that with the financial viability to the franchisees and to the company. And the potential for job loss and revenue to the City if we across the board pass something like this would be very substantial.
I understand your point very well. My oldest daughter is a nurse and works out night and I have four grandchildren that -- they're very young, so she stops in those stores and picks up milk and so forth. But what I'm saying to you is that of the Sunocos that I can think of, I can't think of one right now -- I'm looking around my neighborhood in my head. None of them seem to be in an area where 80 percent of the area are home dwellers.
Again, without going through and looking at the actual locations, I don't want to speculate and just pull a number out of thin air. 71 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
I think you might need to take a look at that because this might not affect as much.
I've been struggling with that same question. There's two that come to mind for me, one at Richmond and Allegheny which is highly residential but you're not really on a residential block because there's a Wawa next door, right at Richmond and Allegheny. That was the Sunoco station since the '50s or '60s. Now it's an A-Plus. And then the one on Oxford Avenue, there's one on each side. That's a residential area, but you're not technically on a residential block. I don't know how this bill would cut.
If I can. When we crafted the bill, we took into account that there were going to be instances where you have Rite-Aids, CVS's, Sunocos, 24-hour convenience locations. In my mind -- and I've been here all my life. I'm sure most of the members of the Committee, and I've actually polled them to find out if anybody can think 72 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 of a Sunoco or a similar type of gas station on a block, not an area, on a block that's 80 percent residential. So we purposely set a high threshold, 80 percent residential, because of the concern about having these 24-hour convenient stores.
That one we're talking about where the young man, unfortunately, was killed, is that 80 percent residential?
On that block face of Queen Lane, the 100 block of Queen Lane, that and one church at the opposite end of the block are the only non-residential buildings on the block. That block definitely qualify.
Was always a gas station? When you moved in was it a gas station?
It was gas station when we moved in. And actually, when we moved in, we asked our landlord does it close down at night. It did close down at night, and that's one of the reasons that we took the house. We were actually before it went 24 hours, we were 73 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 talking whether or not we wanted to approach the landlord about buying the house because we really liked the neighborhood. There's no way we'd consider buying the house with a 24-hour gas station across the street from it.
If we're not in a rush, maybe we can go back and figure out precisely which location will be affected in the City and get that number and then maybe work with you all and work with the Council folks to try to figure out a solution. I think we have a pretty good history of working in the City. We've got a facility in Joan Krajewski's district and the two refineries down in South Philadelphia.
I was just going to say that. In the district that I represent, I don't know of any that's in a residential block.
We have one on Frankford Avenue right there at Frankford 74 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 and Hartel. We have another one at Torresdale and Cottman. They're really in business districts.
The other ones in Germantown are on non-residential blocks. So I think ours is sort of a special situation, but problem does need to be addressed.
As a sponsor of the bill, along with the my colleagues co-sponsor of the bill, frankly speaking, I think based on testimony that we've received today and calls that we've gotten, I think it's prudent that we move ahead with the bill 15 out of Committee. If, in fact, Mr. Hazzouri, you can find with your company where there are instances where this will be affected, personally, I'd be more than willing to entertain any solution. But hearing potentially one out of the entire City, I don't know how you hold up a bill that would have a drastic effect on all the neighborhoods in the City of Philadelphia for one particular location. Whatever we do in Council, you can guarantee there's going to be at least one 75 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 person who's not going to like it.
I just want to make sure I understand. You say in order to minimize the impact or just be sure we correct the problem, you are going to move it today, or we'll wait and try to work on it?
The bill will be required to have two readings in Council. But I'm being honest with you. If we found -- personally, let me speak for myself, if I found there was only one location that fell under the jurisdiction of this bill, I would be hard pressed not to pass this bill, given the significance on all of the other problem locations in the City of Philadelphia for one facility. I'm just being straight up honest with you, even in fact that does fall within the purview of this particular bill, which I'm not clear it does. I'd be willing to entertain if there are, in fact, a substantial number of locations that can be affected, that's a different story. We purposely said 80 percent for that reason because I didn't want to have to impact on those locations 76 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 where they had -- I'm a very strong supporter of commerce.
The other thing I would hate to see happen -- if it's a situation where it's only one or two service station or convenient stores, I'd hate to see what happen is companies will comply with the letter of the law and then that's it because they feel, you know what, there's no reason to try to cooperate and go any further. That's our only concern here. And I'm sorry there are no other folks, an other operators because it would be helpful. But I personally would ask that if we could hold it let's figure out what the problems are, I think maybe in the long run maybe we'd be better off.
You're asking me to hold it for one location out of the entire City, potentially one location.
Potentially one. But if we can figure out what the total impact is --
But I didn't do the bill to affect Sunocos. Sunocos are not a 77 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788 problem in my Councilmanic District. This is not a thought process that I entered into when we did this bill. This bill was targeted to these small stores on these purely residential blocks that stay open until 3:00 and 4:00 in the morning and create all this negative activity around them. That's what we're targeting. I understood that there were locations where you did have certain stores that stayed open hours or close to 24 12 hours. When we looked at those particular 13 operations, they were primarily on commercial 14 corridors or blocks that were substantially 15 commercial corridors. I just don't know of 16 Sunoco -- and like I said, I've been here all 17 our life and I ride around the City. I can't 18 think of a single Sunoco that's on a block 19 that's less than -- 20
I'm sure you can 21 understand, I'm just trying to protect our 22 interests. 23
I'm trying to 24 protect the interest of the people of the City of Philadelphia. 78 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
Absolutely. I guess my question then becomes if you decide to move it today, should we find out there are actually stations that are impacted and yet 6 you agree that, well, they're impacted because 7 just the way it happens to be written, would 8 you agree to entertain amendments then? 9
Personally, I'm 10 a reasonable guy. I'm always willing to -- 11
I just don't want to 12 get caught in the middle, that's all. 13
That wasn't the 14 objective to deal with Sunocos and the 15 Rite-Aids and the CVS's because they're by and large not problematic. But we've got a problem out there, and like I said, a kid got shot at 1600 Cecil B. Moore recently. That particular store actually doesn't fall this particular provision, but it's similar to the types of stores we have where these guys. They gamble, they shoot crap, they stand out there. As the gentleman said earlier, they buy things that allow them to use drugs. Something has to be done about that. 79 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
And I agree. Certainly, if I were in this situation, I'd feel the same way. My other concern, though, is -- and this is not from a Sunoco perspective, but where are all these other business owners? Why aren't they here?
Maybe they don't think that this would create a problem for them.
Do you have a list of all your stores with you today?
I have a list of the stores that are within the City limits.
There's no way for us to tell unless we have the knowledge in our heads what's 80 percent residential by looking at that.
If you gave us a day or two, we go back and come back to you with actually facts instead of trying to speculate or extrapolate today. 80 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
The earliest this bill can pass will be Thursday of --
We have Council next week, but the week after that, Veterans Day, we have off. So if we vote this out and suspend the Rules, we can read it first reading next week, and then it's two weeks until the second meeting, the 18th. So the Councilman's right. You've got more than two weeks.
Just a very important point for the good people from Sunoco. You don't want to put yourself in a position where you might give the impression that you want to hold a bill like this up that the issue at hand with this bill is having such a big negative impact on a lot of communities in this City, so I think it's very important that you do your homework and find out if in fact you have a handful or more of your businesses in areas in blocks where there's 80 percent people living.
Councilman, I agree with you. It's just much more difficult -- 81 10/28/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040788
You understood my point that I don't want the people that are viewing now or anyone to think that -- I don't think those are your intentions -- that Sunoco, in looking out for your interest, hurting the greater interest of people in neighborhoods who are concerned about these establishments open late. I mean, there are kids that are gathering 2 o'clock in the morning close to where I live at. That is very big concern throughout this City.
I'm not disagreeing with that. My point comes in on a procedural end. It would be easier to deal with something before it passed out of Committee than after it's had first reading.
He can still amend it again. He's going to amend it now, but he can amend before the second reading. He's going hold it. You've got his word he's going to hold it until he feels comfortable.
There's no one else who want to testify. Praise the Lord. We will close the public hearing. Seeing no 6 other witnesses, this concludes the public hearing. - - - - 83 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC MEETING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - - Thursday, October 28, 2004 - - - - Public meeting conducted by the Committee on Licenses and Inspections, held in Room 400, City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the above date, to consider action on the following: BILL 040788. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN JUAN RAMOS 84 10/28/04 - LICENSES - PUBLIC MEETING
We will now enter the public meeting. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke for a motion on Bill No. 040788.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to offer an amendment on this particular bill. The amendment addresses a couple of issues that have been brought up during the hearing and prior to. One, with respect to certain areas that have restaurants and high volume of residential such as Chinatown, as referenced before, when we designate commercial establishments, these will be establishments where consumer purchase goods intended solely for consumption off premises, so that would not incorporate restaurants because restaurants have eat-in facilities and, therefore, they would not subject to this particular bill. Additionally, we would like to talk about amending the hours of operation. Based on the testimony that we heard today in terms 85 10/28/04 - LICENSES - PUBLIC MEETING of compromise, and I offer this to the body -- most people said o'clock or earlier. I 4 would like to offer as a compromise, 11 5 o'clock as opposed 12:00 midnight. 6
A motion has 7 been made. Do I hear a second? 8 (Duly seconded.) 9
The ayes have it. No nays. Now we're going to move that Bill 15 040788, as amended, be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation, and further recommend that the Rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session. (Duly seconded.)
It has been made and seconded. All those in favor? (Aye.)
All those 86 10/28/04 - LICENSES - PUBLIC MEETING opposed? (No response.)
Seeing none, it passes as amended. This concludes the public meeting of Licenses and Inspections Committee. One last thing I want to say and then we can all go. I think what goes into play here is -- and this isn't to stick up for Sunoco. Sunoco probably voluntarily goes in the neighborhoods that people don't go into. There's an invisible red crayon or a red marker, whatever you want to call it, around neighborhoods in this City. And a lot of these companies that aren't here today that everything to lose just like Sunoco don't venture into those neighborhoods. Sunoco, for their benefit, they try to be fair where they're going to be. Unfortunately, in your situation, it becomes one that no matter what it was, it would be the same. So let's remember Sunoco aren't bad corporate citizens. They're here today, so we appreciate that. And that will be in the Councilman Clarke's 87 10/28/04 - LICENSES - PUBLIC MEETING mind. Thank you. (Council adjourned at 3:45 p.m.) - - - - 88 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Thursday, October 28, 2004, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. RE: COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS _________________________ Lisa C. Bradley, RPR