Committee Hearing, May 9, 2000

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, May 9, 2000 3:15 p.m. - - - BILL 000149 - An ordinance amending Title 10 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Regulation of Individual Contact and Activity," by adding a new Section 10-828, entitled "Prohibition on the Sale of Box Cutters and Similar Utility Knives to Persons Under the Age of Eighteen," all under certain terms and conditions PRESENT: COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ, Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN JAMES L. KENNEY COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149 I N D E X Otis Haigler, Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Legislative and Regulatory Affairs Manager, L&I 3 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149 P R O C E E D I N G S

Good afternoon. Hello, hello. Seeing Councilwoman Donna Miller coming in and Councilman Darrell Clarke and Councilman Kenney, the Committee on Public Safety has a quorum for a hearing on Bill 000149. Will the clerk read the title the of the bill, please.

An ordinance amending Title 10 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Regulation of Individual Contact and Activity," by adding a new Section 10-828, entitled "Prohibition on the Sale of Box Cutters and Similar Utility Knives to Persons Under the Age of Eighteen," all under certain terms and conditions.

We have around 30, 45 witnesses, so I will ask each witness to please make their statements as short as possible. We have a long day here, so I will ask the first witness, Mr. Otis Haigler, to summarize if you can the long testimony that he has for us.

Thank you. Good day, Councilman Ortiz and members of the committee. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., Legislative and Regulatory 4 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149 Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today, I am here to provide testimony on Bill 000149, which, if enacted, will prohibit the sale of box cutters or similar utility knives to persons under the age of 18. The Department of Licenses and Inspections has absolutely no objection to the enactment of this bill, and is prepared to enforce the provisions of the bill, the Department, currently through our Business Regulatory Enforcement Division, enforces similar provisions of the Philadelphia Code to restrict the access of materials or items by minors which may cause harm to the public or themselves. The two specific sections of the Code, which is a precedence for our enforcement of this bill, is Section 9-622, restricting the sale of cigarettes and other tobacco products, and Section 9-618, restricting the sale of spray paint and indelible markers to minors under the age of 18. As with both of these sections, the proprietor of the establishment is required to restrict the ready access of the item to the general public and to require proof of age prior 5 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149 to the sale of the item. Violators of the Philadelphia Code sections, as outlined, are subject to fines, as described in the respective Code section. This concludes my testimony. I will be happy to answer any questions at this time. Thank you.

Yes. One question. This, in essence, will not prohibit the sales of these knives; it will just restrict by age. So you can have 'em in your store, right?

That's correct, that's correct.

And when we say "utility knives," could you describe what type of knives these are, in terms of length and. . .

Not the specifics, but they are used generally for architectural purposes, purposes related to construction and carpentry work, that kind of thing. I don't know the particular length. They vary in length and size dimensions.

Any other questions? Councilman Kenney. 6 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149

Thank you. Mr. Haigler, how are you?

Hello.

Good. Does the Department undertake, once we've passed this bill, any type of notification to hardware stores and similar type commercial operations that this is, in fact, is now prohibited? Is there any mailing or notification that's given? I mean, I'm sure it will be covered in some element of the press. I know it's difficult for some of these shop people to know -- I think they should have common sense not to do it in the first place, but how do we actually formally inform them that this is now, in fact, an illegal activity?

At times, when we have a listing of establishments to send out notifications to, the Commissioner does attempt to do that. We also release press releases announcing new provisions, new laws that have been enacted. The Department can avail itself of many avenues to do this. We can also publicize it in the newspapers, as a public service announcement, that a new law was enacted. 7 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149 So we can avail ourselves of many avenues to do this.

And will we do this -- will the Department do this in this particular case?

I would suspect so. I can't speak for the Commissioner, but I would suspect so, I would expect it's no problem.

Okay, thank you.

The committee has now been joined by Councilman Frank Rizzo and Councilman David Cohen. Councilman Rizzo?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could you describe -- when we use the word "similar utility knives," what presently is L&I's oversight on actual folding knives and other knives that would fall into this category? If you go to a sporting store, you can buy, I would assume, a folding pocket knife. And I remember, as a kid growing up, that there was something about the blade was six inches. And do we have regulations on the books 8 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149 right now that control -- other than box cutters, other than utility knives, where are we presently with conventional knives that are available over the counter?

Well, from an L&I standpoint, I don't believe we have anything where we would regulate that too closely, but maybe from a police standpoint, a law enforcement standpoint, there may be some requirements that they have to enforce restrictions on weapons. Considering some of these may be considered weapons, they may have certain restrictions that they can enforce. But from an L&I's standpoint, as far as my knowledge is concerned, this is the first time I've ever seen anything related to box cutters and utility knives or any other knives in general.

My point being, we're regulating box cutters and utility knives, and the obvious is, we're not regulating what we commonly know as a knife or as a -- is a switchblade knife illegal?

I believe it is, from a penal standpoint.

Right. A minor 9 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149 cannot go into a store and buy a switchblade knife, right.

I don't even think they're allowed to sell them. But my point is, we're regulating a box cutter, we're regulating a utility knife; what about the conventional knife?

Well, that's within Council's prerogative if they would like to do that, but. . .

It's my understanding of the Code that you cannot purchase -- a minor cannot purchase a knife from a specific size of the blade.

Right.

And that's currently on the books.

Yes.

So what we're asking now in this legislation is that that also includes box cutters, because currently, that's not regulated.

Correct.

And individuals are 10 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149 purchasing box cutters as a replacement for knives, which were already prohibited to be purchased by minors, and that's why we're doing box cutters now.

Okay, that's good to know, because I was just wondering why we would be regulating this. So this is an add-on to an existing bill -- to an existing law to further enhance the ability for young people to get knives and -- okay.

And, again, this is related to Title 9, which deals with the regulation for business and business activity. And what you may be talking about as far as the actual knife may come under another title, such as Title 18, which is the Crimes Code.

Are you satisfied with the language "similar utility knives?" Do you think that's going to create a problem of enforcement of -- do we need to be more specific, or do you think "similar" is good enough?

I think, based on the general definition for "box cutters" and "utility knives," I don't think the inspectors would have 11 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149 any problems with discerning what falls into the category of "box cutters" or "utility knives."

Well, if we already have an existing law that limits knives, you just said something that L&I doesn't enforce --

That's with respect to generally -- with knives in general. Again, that may not be -- that may not fall under the criteria of L&I's enforcement; it may be an enforcement criteria for the Police Department.

Not to belabor this, but why would you want to enforce this if this is an add-on to an existing bill and not enforce what's already on there?

What's already on --

What Councilman Clarke just described as a prohibition against the sale of -- are you telling me that L&I is going to involve themselves actively in the enforcement of the box cutter and utility knives and not other knives?

This is an amendment to the Philadelphia Code, not to the Criminal Code. 12 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149

Right.

This is -- this falls under the purview of L&I, and as such, in terms of this type of material, it does fall in the purview of them to be able to regulate it.

Okay. Thanks.

Councilman Clarke?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Haigler, I have one quick question that's somewhat unrelated to this particular bill, but talking about this in general. When the Police Department arrests someone who has an illegal knife or a minor that has something that they shouldn't have, do they notify the Department of Licenses and Inspections as to where that person purchased it?

I have no knowledge of that. I really don't know, I really have no 21 knowledge of that. We could look that up; I really don't know.

Yeah. I was always interested in, you know, the follow-up and the interrogation if the person has -- you know, if 13 5/09/00 PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 000149 particularly a minor has a gun or if a minor has some illegal knife. A, do the police attempt to find out where that person got that particular knife or gun or whatever? And, B, if they find out, do they notify the Department of Licenses and Inspections for that department to then go and enforce the Code on the sale from that particular establishment? That's what I was always interested in.

Yeah. I can't -- I really can't speak for the notification in the requirements of the Police Department; I really have no knowledge of what their procedures are regarding --

I think we can ask the Commissioner to let us know. In fact, I will inquire from the Commissioner and see what it is they do in that case.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Any further questions? (No further questions.)

Seeing none, thank 14 5/9/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - PUBLIC MEETING you, Mr. Haigler, for your interesting and insightful testimony. Are there any more witnesses on this bill? (No response.)

Don't rush to the witness table as of yet. Seeing none, this committee now moves from the hearing to the meeting side. And seeing that we have a quorum present with Mr. Kenney, Mr. Cohen, Mr. Clarke, Mr. Rizzo, Mrs. Donna Miller, I will ask for a motion on the bill, on Bill No. 14 000149.

Mr. Chairman, I move to report the bill out with a favorable recommendation and with a request for a suspension of the rules. (Duly seconded.)

Are there any nays on this bill? Are there yeas on this bill? The yeas having it, Bill No. 000149 will be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation and a recommendation that the rules 15 5/9/00 - PUBLIC SAFETY - PUBLIC MEETING of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading in the next session of City Council. The controversy of the box cutters hereby ends today. (Adjourned at 3:23 p.m.) - - - 16 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Tuesday, May 9, 2000, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY BILL NO. 000149 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter