Because of the reasons stated, that although I acknowledge the importance of what you're doing, although I agree with the logic behind what you're looking to do, the commitments that were made to other projects in this particular situation have to take precedent.
Councilwoman, you asked me why. You didn't ask as to whether or not my logic was right morally or otherwise. I'm giving you my reasoning. Well, I'm giving you my answer and my reason for my answer. Now, it's certainly your prerogative to question or even to disagree with my answer. 60 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882
Mr. Hanna, do you make your own decisions or are you told what to do?
Okay. So then what you're really saying, this is coming from higher than you; is that correct?
No. What I'm saying is that it's the Administration's view that the commitments that were made to these three organizations have to in this particular situation --
I'm going to give you a copy of this letter. I want this letter, I think I said, entered in the public record. I stated whatever contracting processes are required, either through amending an 61 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 existing PHDC contract or entering into another contract that allows PHDC to assess these funds as of July 1, needs to be undertaken immediately. Let me ask you this: According to the Controller, which we will deal with, the money that I'm being told was spent was not spent. Now, I don't think that the Controller would have a reason not to tell us the truth. Say you used $200,000. Take the $200,000, but you give my poor people the rest of that money that they need for their repairs. It's not important about that. It's important that they get what's left to take care of their needs. Now, tell me, is that possible?
I've not seen the Controller's report. I've not talked to the Controller, so I'm not quite sure where he's getting his numbers from or --
Again, I've not 62 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 talked to the Controller, so it's --
It's hard for me to respond to something that the Controller is doing without having been able to ask him my own questions.
I know that you received similar letters from Councilwoman Tasco and Councilman Savage. Given the fact that you know how great the need is for this program, what steps did you undertake to make sure that these funds were made available as rapidly as possible?
With the Basic Systems Repair Program, monies, actual dollars, aren't expended until the work is in fact done. For the Fourth, Seventh and Ninth Districts, particularly for the 63 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 Seventh and the Ninth Districts, that money -- well, those repairs are still ongoing. Once those repairs are done, that money will be available for them. Those contractors will not experience any delay in being paid for the work that they got done.
Do you stand by your statement to the Inquirer that implementation of the Basic Systems Repair Program has been delayed because HUD was two months late in authorizing the funds needed for the program?
I remember having that telephone interview. I don't know that that was a direct quote or an accurate direct quote, and certainly all of us have been misquoted by the media. I will say this, however: That we could not contract with PHDC for any funds until we received our -- we, as in the City via OHCD -- received our letter from HUD confirming our contract or the contract between the US federal 64 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 government, HUD in particular, and the City of Philadelphia. Until that happened, we could not contract with PHDC.
Do you acknowledge that HUD has nothing to do with these NTI bond proceeds and they could have been under contract sooner by amending an existing PHDC contract?
HUD has everything to do with everything we do, by virtue of the fact that all of our salaries are paid for with CDBG or other federal dollars. HUD has made the determination --
We're not talking about salaries. I spoke to the regional head -- Senator Specter made it possible for me to speak to the regional head of HUD, and he told me HUD had nothing whatsoever to do with the funding, the process of the NTI, and that's completely false. And I do have a letter that pretty much says that from 65 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 him.
HUD has nothing to do with NTI, that's correct, but HUD has everything to do with the programs that we decide to --
I'm talking about NTI. I'm not talking about other programs. I'm talking about that NTI money, that bond money. That's what I'm talking about.
You're right, that is City of Philadelphia -- that is a City of Philadelphia obligation.
If these funds would have been made available to PHDC in July 2007, would persons on the Seventh and the Ninth Council District waiting lists have received service sooner?
No, Councilwoman, I don't think they would have. I've given a lot of thought to this, again, having reviewed the tapes from the last -- from the other hearing. I am well aware of 66 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 Mr. McIntosh's statement at the last hearing. I'm well aware of Ms. McColloch's statement at the last hearing. They contradict. Ms. McColloch says that it wouldn't have made any difference. Mr. McIntosh stated -- in fact, I think the term he used was "absolutely" --
Why wouldn't it make a difference? If the funds were available, they had the contractors, who usually don't have a lot of work to do in the summertime, why wouldn't it have made a difference?
I'm getting to that. Having contradictory responses to that particular question, I decided to go and do my own research and find out for myself so that I could make my own -- 67 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882
I talked to members of my staff. I talked to members of the PHDC staff. I talked to folks who had once worked for PHDC and once worked for OHCD.
Mr. Hanna, listen to me. I find it inconceivable. You've just sat here and testified to me today and told me that your staff has not been honest with you, they have not been accurate, they have not even been considerate of how bad they make you look by their actions, but yet you would trust their opinion. That's amazing.
Councilwoman, I would be an idiot to go back to the same people who provided me that information. 68 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 I didn't go back to those same people. I went to people who I thought had no skin in this game, people who had nothing to gain nor lose by providing me information as long as their identities were kept anonymous. Those are the folks to whom I went. And, yes, to a large extent, I do trust what they told me.
That's all, Mr. Hanna. Mr. Chairman, I want a ten-minute break. I need a ten-minute break.
We have a request for a ten-minute recess. Thank you. Just hang in there. (Short recess.)
Please come back into the session for a moment. I want to try to cut to the chase on this. Is there any available NTI money for the Fourth Council District?
In addition to the 1.3 million already transferred, we have 69 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 made the determination that approximately $500,000 would also be available.
And you're basing that on the fact that you believe there's money been committed from NTI for two specific projects?
That's why I said at the beginning two and a half. For two projects, yes. For --
Allegheny West and Mt. Carmel. For Carroll Park, three properties, as I understand it, have been purchased. Another 11 or so were planned. Those 11 can be cancelled.
We have a preliminary report from the Controller's office that says that on Allegheny West and on Carroll Park that he sees no 22 evidence of any Council authorization for either Allegheny West or Carroll Park and that according to RDA, NTI funds are not committed to acquire Allegheny West 70 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 properties or Carroll Park properties.
Could I have the -- I'm sorry. My name is Michael Koonce. I'm the Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority. I'd like to have Deputy Director David Thomas, who has been working with the Controller, respond.
My name is David Thomas, Deputy Executive Director for the Redevelopment Authority.
According to a preliminary report by the City Controller that I have received from Councilwoman Campbell's staff, he sees no 24 evidence of any Council authorization for Allegheny West or for Carroll Park, and 71 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 according to the RDA, according to what this report says, is that NTI funds are not committed to acquire Allegheny West properties or Carroll Park properties. Could you comment on that?
The first part of your statement, that Allegheny West and Carroll Park, no Council ordinance, is correct. The second part of your statement, no funds are committed, that depends on who you ask, if you will. Because there's no Council authorization, funds obviously could not be committed.
So I guess based on that answer, then, wouldn't that money be available for programs or acquisitions in the Fourth District?
Again, that's not a question for me to answer. That would be somebody else. 72 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882
I'm probably the person to answer it. I'd need to sit down and talk to Messrs. Thomas and Koonce. Not having seen, again, that Controller's report, I'd have to sit down with the RDA staff.
But I guess the confirmation that there's no Council ordinance would make the funds naturally non-committed or uncommitted. You can't commit the funds without Council action, right?
I believe that if they have no 22 authorization from Council to proceed and spend that money, that money belongs to the Fourth Council District.
You can 73 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 comment.
I'm sorry. If I may, the Redevelopment Authority does not have a Council authority to expend any dollars for the projects Allegheny West, the portion of the Fourth District for Allegheny West, nor Resources, the RHD properties. It does have an ordinance 10 that allows us to expend dollars on behalf of Mt. Carmel.
Okay. So the funds that were potentially going to be committed through our authorization on Allegheny West and Carroll Park, those monies should be available.
Except that it's my understanding from Mr. Hanna's testimony that the Administration has said if the money is committed, then it has to stay committed.
But it's 74 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 not committed, because it wasn't authorized to be committed.
See, I guess -- look, we have like 40 days left for the Administration. I don't know what's going to happen with any of this stuff. The new Mayor may have a totally different idea on how to handle this stuff. The Allegheny West and the Carroll Park properties, if they're not committed and the money is not there, they're probably not going to happen in the next 40 days. Is there some way to divert or redirect the money into the BSRP program in the Fourth District to kind of take care of some of these people in the last 40 days that we have to help them?
But, again, following that logic -- and, again, Councilwoman, I've said it before in private. I'll say it publicly. I agree 75 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 with what you're looking to do. If we do follow that tact, Councilman Kenney, then in 45 days and thereafter where do we look for, where do we find the money for those other two projects once they do kind of kick back up? That's the dilemma.
We don't know at this point whether or not the new Administration is going to even prioritize Allegheny West or Carroll Park. So I think what we know now is that there are people out there that are in need. There's some money available. Because we have not authorized commitment of the funds, it would seem like the easy -- not easy, but it seems like the most direct thing to do is to use that money to fix those heaters and roofs, and even if it goes further than 45, 40 days, it goes 45, 50, 60 days, I'm sure the new Administration is not going to stop the repair of people's homes for money that's been committed to that purpose. And it 76 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882 seems at this point, after all these hearings -- and I don't really necessarily want to have another one -- that may be the fair thing to do, since there is no authorization for commitments on either of these projects.
Councilman Kenney, Councilwoman Campbell, let me do this -- and Lord knows I've got back of scars that comes from having sat in this position in other committees, so I'm not looking forward to another committee hearing either. I understand what you're getting at, Councilpeople. As I said before, the Administration has made this policy decision. I am half of the Administration, as I defined it. Let me have a conversation with the other half of the Administration, as I defined it, to see if maybe this might not be a reasonable resolution to this thorny problem.
It would seem a nice holiday gesture. 77 11/27/07 - LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT - RES. 070882
For the record, I'm going to tentatively recess this hearing until December the 11th at o'clock. Hopefully we won't have to 9 have it, but I just want to keep the 10 record open if I can.
And if in fact by then we resolve this, then -- well, hopefully we will have resolved this so that your wish can be granted.
Thank you. (Committee on Legislative Oversight adjourned at 11:40 a.m.) - - - 78 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on November 27, 2007, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)