Committee Hearing, February 6, 2006

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, February 6, 2006 10:10 a.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, CHAIR COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO BILL 060010 - An ordinance amending Subcode "PM" (the Philadelphia Property Maintenance Code) of Title 4 of The Philadelphia Code (The Philadelphia Building Construction and Occupancy Code) by providing for a Certificate of Rental Suitability to be provided by the owner of any rental property prior to the inception of any tenancy, and providing for a private right of action by tenants to compel compliance with the Code, all under certain terms and conditions. - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2

The Committee on License and Inspections will come to attention, the public hearing. Myself, Councilman Mariano. To my far right, Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown, Councilman Clarke, Councilman Kelly and Councilman Rizzo. Anthony, could you read the ordinance.

An ordinance 12 amending Subcode "PM" (the Property Maintenance Code) of Title 4 of The Philadelphia Code (the Philadelphia Building Construction and Occupancy Code) by providing for a Certificate of Rental Suitability to be provided by the owner of any rental property prior to the inception of any tenancy, and providing for a private right of action by tenants to compel compliance with the Code, all under certain terms and conditions.

Thank you. You didn't give the bill number. It's Bill No. 060010. 3 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 The first person, License and Inspections first. Is Otis here? Otis, I knew you bet heavily on Pittsburgh, but when I didn't see you in the crowd, I didn't know it was that.

Sorry for the delay.

That's all right.

Good day, Councilman Mariano, members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., Director of Legislative Affairs for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today I am here to provide testimony on Bill 060010, which, if enacted, will amend the licensing requirements of the Property Maintenance Code to require that owners of rental properties provide a Certificate of Rental Suitability at the time of change in tenancy of a rental unit. As a Department whose mission is to enforce the provisions of The 4 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Philadelphia Code related to fire and building safety as well as property maintenance, we support the basic tenants of this bill, as it is in line with our mission. The intent of Bill 060110 is to provide new tenants of rental property with needed information regarding the rental license status of the premises and whether the Department has recorded violations against the premises which would impact on the safety of its occupants. The certificate the Department will issue in compliance with this new requirement is similar to the one currently issued for residential real estate transactions as a requirement of state law, where the seller of properties are required to give to the buyer a certificate as part of the real estate transfer process. State law requires that this certificate be given to the buyer prior to settlement and that the certificate list the legal zoning, as 5 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 well as any recorded building or fire safety violations the municipality has on the premises. Bill 060010 proposes to mirror those requirements when the tenancy of residential rental properties changes. And in addition to the rental license status of the premises, the certificate will provide the tenant with information on how to request a further inspection of the property should the need arise after they have begun occupancy of the premises. To provide landlords and tenants with a broader understanding of what documents are required to rent properties in the City of Philadelphia and the requirements of the City relative to Code enforcement, this proposed bill 21 will mandate that landlords, in addition to providing the Certificate of Rental Suitability to new tenants, must also provide them with a copy of the publication Partners For Good Housing 6 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Handbook as published and distributed by the Department. Contained within this handbook are various Code requirements related to residential rental property that has been synopsized into an easy-to-read-and-understand format in order to give landlords, tenants and others a basic understanding of the laws and requirements as enacted and enforced by the City. Also contained within the handbook is the process for filing a complaint with the Department by anyone in the public who observes violations of the City's requirements and the process for filing appeals of violations notices that have been issued to persons subsequent to an inspection having been conducted by the Department. I also want to note and emphasize that the Partners For Good Housing Handbook has been translated into four languages - English, Spanish, Russian and Korean - so as to provide 7 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 this information across ethnic and cultural lines to better serve our City's diverse population. Landlords may choose to make download copies of the handbook free of charge in one of the languages mentioned from the City's website, www.phila.gov. To make the proposed bill 10 manageable for the Department to implement and enforce, we have worked closely with Councilman Mariano's office to draft amendments to the bill, which will be offered today. Thank you for the opportunity to provide the Department's testimony on Bill 060010. I'll be happy to answer any questions at this time.

Thank you, Mr. Haigler. Any questions from the Committee? (No response.)

Seeing none, I'll take the next -- excuse me. 8 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Councilman Rizzo. Sorry.

Mr. Haigler, the obvious point is taken by the people that are in the business of renting properties that this is just another burden. I agree with the goal that we're trying to achieve here, but have you analyzed or has L&I looked at how we can bring this together with something we already do so we don't need to fill out another form, that we don't need to pay another fee, that we don't need to burden the owners with more paperwork? Not that we don't need to do this. I agree with the concept here, but how can we collapse this thing into something that we already deal with to not just add another task of filling out and writing checks and on and on and on? Recently there was an issue with the smoke alarms, the central systems, and more paperwork there where they had to comply. I got lots of calls about that a year or so ago. 9 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 So what can L&I suggest to maybe make this an easy thing to do?

Well, Councilman, I have not personally analyzed the bill 6 to that extent and I don't think nobody in the Department has. The bill recently was introduced in the Council and the hearing is roughly about maybe a week or so after the bill was introduced. So we really haven't had an opportunity to really sit down and analyze any other issues that this might fall into. But we do say that the bill in its present form does not add any undue burden on the Department. That's really what my, I guess, responsibility is.

How could it not, Mr. Haigler? You're talking about actual inspections, correct?

Well, no. We're talking about the issuance of a Certificate of Rental Suitability, not an inspection. What we're talking about is with the amendments that were being 10 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 proposed, there are no inspection requirements prior to the issuance of the Rental Suitability Certificate. It's similar to what we currently do with Real Estate Transfer Certificates that we issue. We basically give the person who applies for those certificates information as to what the legal status is of the premises and whether or not we have any recorded violations already on file for the premises.

So a person that owns a rental property that gets the certificate, there's no assurance other than a piece of paper that the property is --

Well, what we also do is, we require the landlord to provide to the tenant information from our publication, the Partners For Good Housing Handbook, and if the tenant so chooses, they can contact the Department or anybody can contact the Department at any time to request an individual 11 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 inspection of that premises.

Well, they can do that today.

That's correct.

So that's nothing new.

That's correct.

My point being is -- again, I don't want to overdo this, but my point is, is there a way that we can keep the work to a minimum and have this kind of hooked up with some other process that we already do, rather than -- I can imagine when it becomes public, the landlords out there are going to say, Here we go again, a bureaucracy making it more difficult for us. Again, I'm with the concept, but I'm trying to make it as streamlined as possible.

I really can't answer that question at this time. I can take it back to my administrative superiors, commissioner, deputy 12 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 commissioners, and discuss it.

Well, you would think that any time we're adding a burden to an operating department, that the first reaction is, Yeah, how do we keep it simple and how do we incorporate it into something else we already do. Are you looking for more work? I don't know. But to me, I'd appreciate knowing -- and whoever the sponsor of the bill is, I think it's Councilman Mariano, that he would hopefully support keeping it simple.

Thank you, Councilman. Councilman, on that point -- and I want to recognize Councilman Kelly, but first I just want to say, the reason we're doing this bill is not for the legitimate landlords to hurt anybody. If we were ever going to do anything like that, there wouldn't be any sense of even coming in. But I appreciate your interest in it, and I know your intention 13 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 is well. There's an underground market of people renting apartments out in the City and mostly all major cities. This is going to give everybody a chance to be able to have a certificate and call and say this is legitimate. Right now you can do that and -- it's all illegal, but people still do it. I think we're going to find if we hold most of our discussion until the people that are in opposition and the people that are in support of this bill and where they come from, they'll make it a little bit clearer what the problems are. I think that will be good. Councilman Kelly.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Haigler, I just want to follow up on Councilman Rizzo's questioning. If a tenant has a problem right now and whether he gets your number from the book or from anywhere, if he 14 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 calls, what is the response time of an L&I inspector going out there and taking a look at the situation?

To my knowledge, the response time is usually within five days.

Within five days?

Within five days to do an inspection.

Once they do the inspection, if they do issue a citation, what is the follow-up on that?

Once a violation notice has been issued to the property owner, the property owner is given time to correct that violation as prescribed by law. If the property owner does not correct the violation within the prescribed time period, then further enforcement action is taken against the property owner, which means taking that person to court, following it through the enforcement process and recommending 15 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 fines to a municipal court judge to impose those fines against the property owner for non-compliance of the Code. Right now within the Code, the fines can be anywhere from $150 to $300 per day per offense. There are certain fines that were increased based on state law recently enacted to allow for certain fines to be increased up to, by the year 2009, $2,000 for certain violations.

Can you give me a ballpark estimate on the time that you would allow a landlord to make the necessary repairs?

Generally it's 30 days.

30 days?

Generally it's 30 days.

After 30 days, they would be reinspected?

Reinspected, and if it's found to be in non-compliance, then that issue is taken through the 16 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 court process.

And the court process would take approximately?

It could take based on the court's schedule as well as the assignment to a judge and appearing before the judge and testifying on that matter.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Councilman. Fire Commissioner, since we have no other questions, you can come up now.

I would like to give to the Sergeant-At-Arms copies of the handbook that I mentioned in my testimony and distribute it to the Committee members, if they would like.

Thank you, Mr. Haigler. Commissioner, before we start, 17 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 I just want to tell you that you're doing an outstanding job with trying to get these fire detectors in residences. Being a person that represents a middle to bottom income district, I've seen the different trucks and your firemen out there with their plungers and their double-edged tape and their free smoke detectors. We all watch television, so we all know how many people die in houses because there's no -- how much is a battery? You even give the batteries out if you just need a battery. So there's really no excuse. And with that double-edged tape, even short people like myself with a plunger can make it. So I really appreciate it. Thank you. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good morning to Councilman Mariano, other distinguished Councilpersons. Thank you for inviting me to testify at today's hearing. I commend and support the 18 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Committee's efforts to ensure suitable living conditions and adequate fire safety for tenants of residential occupancies in our City. As Fire Commissioner and as a concerned citizen of the City, I desire that all residential properties be protected from hazards that may cause fire. One of my top priorities as Fire Commissioner was to ensure that the City's Fire Code contained adequate protection requirements to ensure that City residents, owners and renters are safe from fire in their homes. Our Fire Code contains those requirements. The Code requires fire alarm systems in hotels and apartment buildings and smoke alarms on each level of dwellings. The Fire Department has a program of giving and installing smoke alarms where occupants cannot afford them or have failed to provide them in their homes. Fire companies replace batteries in smoke alarms where found missing or 19 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 dead. The Fire Department's Fire Prevention Division and the local fire companies provide fire safety education programs for residents to ensure they realize the dangers of fire and know what to do if a fire occurs in their home. The Fire Department's efforts alone are not enough. Your bill provides a mechanism to ensure that residences will have the appropriate fire protection equipment and other items and that they will be maintained to protect tenants. Periodic inspections to ensure compliance and reminding tenants that they have the right to take action against an owner for lack of compliance helps to ensure that tenants will have the appropriate fire protection and adequate living conditions. I support passage of this bill, and thank you for the opportunity to speak on this matter today.

Thank you, Commissioner. 20 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Anyone on the Committee have any questions for the Commissioner? (No response.)

Seeing none, the only other comment, Commissioner, is, the posters that you have, I don't know if you notice, the ones with your picture on them. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, sir.

The eyes follow you when you go down the avenue. I know that's on purpose. So they look at you and say, Do you have smoke detectors in your house, this man is watching you. They really do. The one on Frankford down by North Catholic on Frankford right off of Torresdale, you go by that, you see it. There's the Commissioner looking. And I asked one of your agents. He said, Yeah, that was intended for that. I don't know if he was kidding me or not, but I appreciate it. Good job. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you. 21 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010

Thank you. I know it never ends, but thanks. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you.

Seeing no 6 questions, we're going to go to the third, the tenant unit representative, Phil Lord. Is Phil here? And anybody that's with them can please come up. Tenant Union Representative Network. I think I got it right.

Good morning, Councilman Mariano.

How are you doing?

Thank you very much. My name is Phil Lord. I'm the Executive Director of the Tenant Union Representative Network, or TURN, and I'm here with our counsel.

George Gould. I'm an attorney and the managing attorney at Community Legal Services for housing and energy, and our office represents TURN.

Thanks for 22 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 coming, gentlemen.

Thanks again for this opportunity to testify on behalf of TURN regarding the Rental Suitability Certification introduced by Councilman Mariano on January 24, 2006. TURN is a non-profit organization which provides tenant advocacy and housing counseling. We provide a variety of services, including tenants' rights classes, eviction defense counseling, rental subsidy programs, emergency assistance where people are back in their rent. In this process, we see thousands of people each year. Most of our work is funded by the City of Philadelphia. We most recently contracted with the City to provide housing for the Katrina survivors. Our organizational experience is relevant to the proposed legislation. We have 600 households that are part of our rental subsidy programs. We get involved with contracting with them in 23 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 regards to leases. Our programs require that inspections be done before people move into their properties. That is a federal requirement for a lot of the housing subsidy programs that we're involved in. So we get to see the process of renting. We get to see the process of inspection. We also help people interface with L&I and with the City of Philadelphia, because they come to our offices seeking assistance with getting repairs and other kinds of things done. In talking about this ordinance, I found that people are shocked to learn that there is no law against an owner offering substandard property for rent. Like I said, there is no law against an owner offering substandard property for rent. All the remedies that we have -- and there are a lot of them, and I've been practicing landlord-tenant law for over 30 years -- are after the fact. After you get in, 24 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 you can do X, Y and Z. We know about Pugh versus Holmes and the right to withhold rent, repair and deduct, calling L&I. All those things are remedies that take place after you're already stuck in the property. And we have people who have moved into properties into dangerous conditions only to find out after they got in there that they're stuck. When I say "stuck," they're worried about retaliation from the landlords. We have laws against that, but people are driven to court. They're worried about that. Particularly our senior citizens, particularly our disabled people, who have limited housing options, are very much afraid of running into a situation where they're stuck in some place and they have nowhere to go. This bill would give them a warning before they go in. This bill 23 would let them know what some of the problems are or make sure there aren't problems of record before they go in, and 25 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 that's very important. The law right now is basically what we call caveat emptor, which means that buyer beware. Tenants have to take it on their own selves to make sure that the property is okay. Most people can't afford an inspector to inspect the property professionally before they move in. If they see something wrong, they'll tell the landlord about it. The landlord will say, Okay, I'll fix it. Some of them do fix it before you move in. A lot of times, and we see people every day, they do not. People are moving in. They have their truck at the door. The landlord says, Don't worry about it, I'll take care of it next week, next month, and then years later, serious problems are still there. There's also the landlords, very few landlords, who I think are intending not to make the repairs, and those people when they find they have 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 serious problems in their properties and it's not worth the money to fix them because they think it won't increase the value, they'll move a complaining tenant out, evict them or just not do the repairs and then invite somebody else in to the same conditions without having done the work. We think it's important to stop this kind of practice. There's very few landlords, I agree, but it still is significant.

If you look at the University of Pennsylvania Neighborhood Information Service, they say that one out of five properties in Philadelphia right now have Housing Code violations outstanding on the properties. That's one out of five. That's one-fifth. In some councilmanic districts, there's as many as 30 to 40 percent of the properties have outstanding Code violations. That means that we're not doing enough to make sure substandard housing is not on the market. When I say "substandard 27 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 housing," we're not talking about bargaining chips for tenants to make sure the place looks a little bit better or make sure they have bay windows or whatever else. We're talking about minimum standards. We're talking about things that affect the health and safety of people. We're talking about things that are dangerous in terms of fire hazards. We're talking about things that are dangerous in terms of roof leaks or mold or things that can make people sick, particularly children. Parents get into a property. They want to protect their children. They don't know that it's dangerous for their children until they've already moved in, and then they're stuck in the situation of complaining and hoping a landlord responds. We believe that is not adequate, that people should know beforehand. And not only that, that landlords should take responsibility for making sure the place is in good shape. 28 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Like I said, we deal with hundreds of landlords. The ones we deal with don't have a problem taking responsibility. They want people to know they're renting out good properties. They want people to know that they don't want their properties to hurt anybody or make them sick. When we don't enforce the Housing Code, we pay the price in the City hospitals and the morgues. These are not obligations that are superficial. These are fundamental to human life and safety, and that's all we're asking for, is that the stuff be enforced. That's where this bill comes in. We think it does an important job. It prevents people from renting out properties when there are outstanding Code violations. We have a number of people here today. All of them will testify, but they all have experience going into a property with outstanding violations of 29 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 record, not just unreported, but of record, and having moved in, not known about it, and then found out once they get in there. It's easy to say, Well, they should have checked or they should have known, they can call L&I. The reality is that most consumers -- I shouldn't say most, but many of the people that come through our offices -- we see people for our classes every day, we see hundreds of people on a weekly basis -- these people come in and they don't know about their rights. They don't know L&I will do a free inspection. They don't know what can happen. That's why this booklet and this information piece is very important as well. The self-certification piece sounds like it's gratuitous, but we think it puts the responsibility on the landlord to be able to say and assert under penalty of law that their place is not a serious danger to other people. 30 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Most landlords are very glad to do that. We think the charge for the certificate is going to be nominal. It's not going to keep anybody from renting a property. You already have to pay to paint it up and you already have to pay to advertise for it. Adding this extra thing is not going to break the bank. There's another provision in this law which we think is very important, and, that is, it gives the tenant a right to go to court in equity actions, which means that they can go to court and get an injunction and court order to fix the property up. It's hard to believe, but a lot of courts feel that the Housing Code is not between the tenant and the landlord but between the City and the landlord, so they don't want tenants to try to enforce the Housing Code.

This would give the tenant some leverage enabling them to enforce the Housing Code. This is only in the most extreme situations. No one 31 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 can afford to hire a lawyer to go to Common Pleas Court to fix a leaky faucet. It's just not going to happen. It's only in the group cases where landlords have been recalcitrant for years that you have to go into equity. It's very difficult to afford. It's not going to be an individual case. At the same time, when we do make these efforts, we want to make sure we have all the remedies available and can order a landlord to go forward and take the action that needs to happen. You'll probably hear from other people that you got Pugh versus Holmes, and we tell people about those remedies every single day. That Supreme Court case allows you to withhold rent, to repair and deduct, to even move out if you have to seek a rent abatement. But, again, let me emphasize, all this happens after you've moved in. A lot of people are afraid that if they try to do this, they will be 32 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 evicted, and we don't want people to be put in that situation. A lot times they are evicted. So that's another situation. This is not radical law. A lot of jurisdictions have much stronger provisions. Boston and other cities actually have inspections before people move in. We can't afford it in this city. I understand that. But this is a step in the right direction, and we think it's going to be able to improve the situation for folks. The low-income tenants have these housing programs from the federal government to help do inspections before they move in. They also have sometimes lawyers from Legal Services or other places. Various rich folks, of course, can do what they want. They always can, but the middle class has no protection in regards to moving into properties that are not in a safe condition. They get in there and they don't want to have to move 33 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 again and they're fighting with their landlord, and this should not happen. Again, it's a small percentage, but you can see from the numbers I quoted it's significant enough for this committee to take action. So we recommend this bill to you. We ask that you pass it. We think that it will make the City more attractive. It will reduce the substandard housing in the City. It will invite people who hear about it to say, It's a good place to work and people to come and live, good people who have business to come and set up, because we know the housing in this City is going to be protected by the City, and they think that's very important. So I thank you for this opportunity to raise these points with you and offer to answer any questions you might have.

Thank you, Mr. Lord. 34 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Any questions from the Committee? (No response.)

Seeing none.

I just have a couple of additional comments, and first, I'd like to thank the Committee for working on this bill. It's a very important bill. I've been practicing law in Philadelphia for over 30 years now, and what this bill really gets at, and quite simply, is the problem -- and, again, I'll emphasize that many landlords do a good job. There are some out there who don't. And the problem quite simply is, some landlords in the City have continued to rent properties that are in poor condition, that have Housing Code violations, and we often have clients coming into our office that come in, there are these problems, we find out they're Code violations. 35 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Quite simply, what this bill 3 does, without imposing, we believe, any burdens really on the City and any burdens on good landlords, is simply to make sure that the property when it is rented is in good condition and basically there are no serious Housing Code violations on the property. That's what it does. We think it's important, and we thank the Committee for doing this.

Thank you. Any questions for this witness? (No response.)

Seeing none, we could have the next witness, Father McNamee from Saint Malachy's. I was corrected by Councilman Kelly. It says Saint Malachy's. I'm only half Irish, Father, so I have a little Italian twang to the end.

Mr. Chairman, I may have to recuse myself because Father McNamee married me a couple of years ago, I think it was. 36 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010

We're not going to get into that, Councilman. FATHER McNAMEE: Well, rather than repeating what is in my stated testimony, which everyone before me has said, maybe I would improvise a bit just to affirm what everyone else has said. I live in North Philadelphia in the lower east corner of Temple University. Yorktown is a very stable, singularly stable, housing effort in North Philadelphia, but the neighborhood east of me deteriorated sharply. And I was at a community meeting recently in which the community expressed some concern that the development of Northern Liberties and the new development on the waterfront is going to chase the residents out of the neighborhood. Maybe that will solve any housing problems in terms of Code violations, but in terms of right now, all the things that everybody said before me speaking here are true. A lot of people get into 37 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 housing and they have nowhere else to go. They're not aware of their rights, Spanish people sometimes and the language problem, and so they're stuck in the place. And the idea that the Code violations would be required before they move in and all of the things necessary in the rental for their health and safety, fire safety and all the rest, would seem to be a step in the right direction, a step to help people to be comfortable. I live in a place where a lot of times people come to me who have no 16 heat because the rental furnace wasn't working or isn't working and the long delay in fixing it on the part of the landlords. I don't mean to indite all landlords. Many of them do a good job and administer their properties well on behalf of their tenants, but there are the cases which I think could be reasonably solved if L&I were to require certification of the premise before the 38 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 tenants moved in, and the tenants could be made aware of their rights in that regard. I think it would be a good move and seems to be necessary legislation from my experience of years at Saint 7 Malachy. So on behalf of my 8 neighborhood, I would support this 9 legislation. 10

Thank you, 11 Father. 12 Anybody besides Councilman 13 Kelly with marital questions have any 14 questions to the good Father? 15

No. 16

I don't 17 think they had pre cana in them days. 18

Father, I 19 just have a question. In your 20 neighborhood, what would you say the 21 percentage is of rental housing rather 22 than home ownership? What would you say 23 the percentage is? 24 FATHER McNAMEE: Well, Yorktown is, of course, all privately owned. Just 39 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 south of us is the marvelous new development of PHA, the Richard Allen, which is sort of a spectacular site compared to what it looked like for --

That's a new development. FATHER McNAMEE: Yes, new. That is Philadelphia public housing. So we're talking basically in my regard, we're talking about the neighborhood east of me and north of me, which still is a forgotten, kind of neglected neighborhood. Most of them are single homes, and a lot of the people that come to the door are people who rent apartments, maybe sometimes not even legal apartments in rowhouses in that neighborhood, so that they suffer from a lack of the protection that would be required by certification.

Are there many individual owners like landlords of those properties or is it just like companies that come in there or realtors 40 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 and buy many of them? FATHER McNAMEE: I don't really know that, Councilman. I have a sense that it's not large companies that own them, except in the new real estate explosion going on in the neighborhood. But I would say, by and large, it's somebody who owns a property or two or three, often a rowhouse, and subdivides the rowhouse legally or otherwise into apartments and there are people in these apartments.

Well, I just want to take this time to commend you on all the great work that you've done in that neighborhood for all those years. I know you've helped not only hundreds but probably thousands of people in that neighborhood, and you've kept it together. And I think that anything that this Council can do to help you, we certainly will, because you're doing a great job in there. Thank you. FATHER McNAMEE: Thank you, 41 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Councilman.

Any other questions for this witness? (No response.)

Seeing none, thank you, Father. The next, Disabled In Action, Ms. Nancy Salandra and anyone else that's with Nancy.

We want to thank you for this opportunity today to testify on behalf of Disabled In Action regarding the Rental Suitability Certification ordinance. I'm Nancy Salandra, and these are members of Disabled In Action, and we're also a proud member of the Philadelphia Affordable Housing Coalition. Disabled In Action is a membership organization with over 450 members. We've been in existence since 1973. We are a grassroots self-advocacy organization. Our main issues and concern is housing for all disabled 42 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 people and their families. People with physical disabilities are the largest population in the City in need of permanent, affordable, accessible and integrated housing. Our organization receives at least calls a week on 8 housing-related issues, and most are to 9 locate affordable housing. 10 Both DIA and the Philadelphia 11 Affordable Housing Coalition are here to 12 support the passage of the Certificate of 13 Rental Suitability bill. This ordinance 14 would require landlords to get a 15 certificate from L&I prior to leasing a 16 unit which confirms that the proper 17 license has been obtained, that there are 18 no violations of record, that there has 19 been a Housing Code inspection within the 20 last two years. The tenants would receive a copy of the certificate, which would explain the process for L&I. We believe that with the passage of this bill it would enable individuals, including the disabled, to 43 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 have access to more decent, safe, viable housing. The preservation of decent and affordable housing in Philadelphia is one of the major goals of the Philadelphia Affordable Housing Coalition. And we just want to say, in our case, it's a constant issue looking for housing and looking for housing that's going to be suitable for all disabled people, whether they have a physical disability or another disability. So we want to thank you today for the testimony.

Any questions for Ms. Salandra from the Committee? (No response.)

Seeing none, anyone else want to testify at all that are up here, personally testify?

I want to say something.

I think Councilman Clarke has something to ask 44 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Ms. Salandra first.

My name is Jennifer Burns and I'm with DIA and Liberty Resources, and I have a testimony to give. It's kind of a good one, because if it wasn't for Liberty Resources helping me out, I was on the verge of being homeless after my mom died. I lost my house because of predatory lending. We got into some trouble with that. And I had lost my job and I couldn't help mom keep up with the bills like I wanted to, because I'm on low income and stuff. And a lot of us are on low income, and we just need affordable places to live. Because it took me three years to get the place where I'm living in now, and most of it was because I did the wheel work, and a lot of us do a lot of wheel work to get our own housing and to try to help other people who have disabilities get their own housing, because some of us can't afford to or are not able to because of our physical disabilities. 45 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Some of us can't afford to get out and see about these things. So that's why we're here today, and we thank you for taking the time to listen to us.

Thank you. And Anthony will move the microphone over so everyone gets a chance that wants to speak.

My name is Mrs. Aileen Sable, also known as Spitfire. I'm an activist, and DIA adopted and also Liberty Resources saved my life literally. Most people, if they have something happen in the homeless, if you're in a wheelchair, you're shoved in a nursing home, or as I call them, death camps. They are death camps. We have a lot of turnover of different managers. Nobody really likes landlords, but we've had some really awful ones who like every other week there was no heat or whatever, and then 46 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 every other co-op make a big scene until they put on the heat. I'm just so glad that we're finally getting help with all this, because we are human. We vote. There is something called human rights. We vote. Thank you very much.

Thank you. And I like the Spitfire part. That's very good. MICHELLE: My name is Michelle. I was homeless after graduating from Temple University and I had to find an affordable, accessible housing. Without Nancy's help and the other people from DIA and Liberty Resources, I had to find -- it took me about a year to find accessible, affordable housing. Within this past year, I got hit by -- actually, two years now, I got hit by a truck, and it's been very hard, and if I didn't have affordable, accessible housing, I would not have a place to go back to. I'd be stuck in -- 47 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 people are calling them accessible, affordable housing, but I would have been stuck in a nursing home situation, and I did not want to go back to that.

Death camps. MICHELLE: I call them death camps myself. I was actually being pulled out of my room to tell them that there is affordable, accessible housing out here. They were sneaking me in my chair going into other patients' rooms and telling them that there is affordable, accessible housing out there. They didn't actually know this, because I'm a part of the affordable, accessible Housing Coalition. Without this, I wouldn't be able to do this. So we got to keep it going, guys. Without this going on, we wouldn't have been able to do this. I gave them the number and the resources. We just got to keep it going. I don't want my brothers and sisters in 48 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 the nursing homes. We got to give them a resource to get out here. We got to close down these beds. I was stuck in a nursing home that is now being called The Rehab. They're giving these rehab monies. Please close them down. Please. It wasn't a real rehab. You got to close these people down. Don't let us get back into them, please. They're being called rehabs. Please close them down. I really don't like them.

Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate it. Anyone else up here that wants to speak? Anthony will move the microphone over for you.

My name is John Gladstone. I was in Inglis House for 14 years. I've seen the abuse in the nursing homes. I've seen people take their own lives. Many of my friends in nursing homes have taken their own lives. And we at -- housing is going to be key 49 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 for the disabled. This is a key issue. We get people out of nursing homes, but there's no place to put them. There must be a place to put them. Let's close these nursing homes down, because they're no good. They're killing our people. And what they're doing inside nursing homes is murder. What they're doing inside of Inglis House is murder. Any nursing home in the city or in the country, it's murder. And I want to see these nursing homes shut down pronto. And I want to thank you all for letting us come and testify and getting things off our chest, and we hope that something will be done, because we'll be following you if we have to take it to the streets.

Thank you, Mr. Gladstone.

The minute you -- if you need shelter, if they see you in a wheelchair, you're put in a death camp. Why? Every year they're taking services. 50 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 If it wasn't for services, I wouldn't be independent. I am because of it. Because of what they did to me at Lankenau --

Spitfire.

If you think that Inglis House is bad...

And the thing about it is that most of the shelters that are out there, I have seen quite a bit of them, some of them -- a lot of them are not the cleanest, and then they're not accessible either for disabled people. And they only give you so much time to try and find another place or to try and find a job or whatever. And if it wasn't for the good friend base that I have, I would have probably been trying to get extra money playing the keyboards out on the corner just to make extra money, because I'm a musician also. But, see, my mother taught me great survival techniques, and if it hadn't have been for her, I wouldn't have 51 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 been able to make it. I mean, I'm different and I know I'm different, and a lot of us are different and we know that we're different, but the thing about it is, we have productive lives too. And just because you're in a wheelchair or on walkers or crutches doesn't mean that you can't do. It's what society puts on you and says what you can't do. And I get angry when that happens and show them what I can do. And a lot of people don't like to see that because they don't know how to handle it when I get up in their faces. We all get up in their faces here to let them know that we're out here and we vote. That means things have to change.

They have to look beyond the wheelchair and the disability. We're people too and we have feelings and we want the jobs, we want things and we like things. And I like politics myself. See, nobody in our lives, even our families, looked at us as 52 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 human beings. They just look at somebody they have to take care of.

I mean, I believe --

Don't stereotype us. I probably know more computer in my sleep, but the minute they hear my voice and see our chairs, you're labeled whether you have a right to just --

And some of us have loving, caring families. Some of us don't. And even our loving, caring families can't handle things. Like they swear that they can, and I know they mean well, but when they say, Come and live with me, come and live with me, come and live with me, that's a different story. I realize that they want to help us and everything, but when they try to control things and control our lives and get abusive and things like that, we have to get out ourselves. We have to sneak out sometimes and do what we have to do. 53 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010

As one in my church says, if I need help, I'll ask for it.

What's hard is people who mean well. But we just want a chance to prove ourselves. We have a right to be out here.

Because I went to college also. I'm just saying, I went to college also and I got a teaching degree, with a minor in communications and fine arts. I'm very smart up here. I get a lot of things done using this and using this and using this (indicating).

Right. There's nobody else to --

And I've been a karate teacher for almost 32 years. So I do a lot for me. We do a lot for ourselves and we do a lot for each other. It doesn't matter how long it takes us to do things. We do them and we do them right. We're the best ones in the job market to get stuff done.

I think the word 54 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 is --

I think we all made our point. So thank you very much for allowing us to testify.

Thank you. Councilman Clarke, do you still have a question for Ms. Salandra?

Real quickly. Was your organization involved with the Philadelphia Housing Authority litigation as it relates to accessible units?

Which exactly? We have sued the Housing Authority, but the last lawsuit was not ours now. It was not Disabled In Action.

Are you familiar with the last one, the most recent lawsuit, that I think it was a settlement agreement, based on accessible units?

Yes, but we were not the plaintiff.

You were 55 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 not a part of that?

No. 4

All right. Thank you. Thank you, Councilman.

Thank you, everyone. The next witness will be Mr. Darrell Zaslow from HAPCO. Mr. Zaslow.

Good morning, Councilman. Councilman, my name is Darrell Zaslow. I'm the legal counsel for HAPCO, the Homeowners Association of Philadelphia. Sitting with me is Renee Webb, a member of our Board. Mr. Chairman, as you know, HAPCO represents property owners, landlords, here in the City. Initially, Mr. Chairman, may I thank you and your staff for working with us over the past few days to try to iron out some of our concerns regarding this bill. The way the bill originally had been written and 56 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 the way my testimony was prepared for this morning will be somewhat different than the testimony I'll present to you now because of the corrections which have been made. Again, we appreciate that. I would ask the Councilman and members of the Committee to be aware that we have received these proposed amendments approximately minutes ago. 11 Our opponents, so to speak, on the other 12 side have been involved in this process 13 with you for who knows how many months. 14 So our testimony will be based upon a 15 20-minute review of the law which we now 16 have in front of us. 17 I'm pleased to tell you that 18 after reviewing it, I only have ten 19 concerns about the bill, and those 20 concerns basically are as follows. The first, Mr. Chairman, gets to really the guts of the bill, and I'm reading from the amendment which you've handed to us this morning. 3, 57 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 the bold paragraph on the top half of the page. 3 is really the major change being instituted by this proposal, and I would like to review that with you. 3 says that the owner of a premises needs to attest to the following. The first regards fire protection. We commend you on this clause requiring fire protection. Any landlord who goes to sleep at night not being sure that his tenant has working fire detection, smoke detection, whatever is required, is foolish. We applaud that. The last sentence, Section 3, or I call it No. 3. It's not numbered, which is the third sentence from the bottom, says that the owner -- it begins the middle of the third line from the bottom of the paragraph. " We support that, Mr. Chairman. That is a proper statement of the law. It's a requirement of our owners. We tell our owners that they must comply with that clause. That is their duty as a landlord. It's their duty providing a service to this City. The problem with the bill is the middle section. I've numbered it No. 2. " It's about four lines down. " That's part of the fire prevention, which we applaud, as I said. " That, 59 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Mr. Chairman, is unfortunately a difficult, actually an impossible, phrase for us to accept without a very simple correction. The way it reads, "The operating systems and the property are free from defects, including those which affect health and safety," if you say the property is free from defects, if you take out the words "including those" and say "a property which is free from defects which materially affect the health and safety," that's appropriate. We support it. We have the obligation to do it. Our members and all landlords in the City must comply and will. But if that language remains that the property is free from defects, including habitability issues, what will happen, Mr. Chairman, is Mr. Lord, my brother at the Bar, testified before you that one out of five homes in the City have violations. Mr. Lord properly told you that 40 percent of some of the dwellings in this City have Code violations. I'm 60 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 sure if Phil said so, that it's an accurate number, if not low. If you leave in those words that the property is free from defects, meaning there is a violation, one of these 40 percent, you'll have no housing left. That's not your goal. So if the language says that we are certifying that the property is free from defects materially affecting the health and safety, that we agree with and would comply with.

I would also note for the panel that there was some testimony before you that there is no law now requiring that a property be in proper habitable form when a tenant moves in, that somehow Pugh v. Holmes and all of the cases which have evolved from it apply only after the tenant moves in. That is an incorrect statement. 2 of the Code, and it says that whenever a dwelling is unfit for human habitation, that the owner is prohibited from 61 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 admitting any new tenants. So it's not just that a tenant by law can be moved into some inappropriate dwelling. We are not allowed to rent, nor should a property owner ever rent, a property to someone who is in violation of that habitability. My third concern, Mr. Chairman, regarding the bill as it's presently constituted regards the timing of the issuance of licenses. You have also present today distinguished representatives of the housing industry, the Apartment Association of Greater Philadelphia, the Greater Philadelphia Board of Realtors. I'm sure they will have much to say about the need for prompt issuance of licenses. If a license is going to be issued in a month or three with reinspections, you'll have properties sitting vacant for months on end, which is not tolerable from a business point of view. I'll leave it to them to give you 62 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 more specifics as they may feel appropriate about that timing issue. In that regard, I would, therefore, request that the final section -- actually Section 2, it's on the last page, which says that the bill is to take effect in 180 days -- should be amended in some fashion to provide that the bill should take effect when L&I certifies to you that the process of issuance of the licenses can be accomplished in some very brief period of time, over the Internet or in person or whatever that needs to be. My fourth concern is with regard to the --

Mr. Zaslow, could we get back to that concern before this thought escapes my mind?

Yes.

I'm informed by Anthony here that L&I assured us that everything is going to be online 63 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 by the end of the fiscal year, which would mean July of '06. So then that would help you with that probably.

It certainly would, if that is really going to happen --

Because now it's paperwork, going down, standing in line, waiting around, all that.

Yes. Perhaps the bill could reflect that contingent upon L&I confirming that they've accomplished that. The fourth concern I wanted to raise with you is regarding the life of the license. The way the bill appears to read -- and, again, the amendment from 30 days to 45 days may seem like we're being given a bonus of some kind. A 45-day license is not long enough. You'll hear testimony from other property owners that especially in student districts, they can come and go like nobody's business, and to have to get a new license, they could 64 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 be getting licenses more than once a year, twice a year, three times a year. So we would request that there be some amendment to the bill to provide that the license is good for a year, as it is now. You have a property license. The license should be good for a year, not like you're going through a toll booth, every time a tenant comes in and out, you have to pay the toll again. My fifth concern relates really as a citizen more so than a representative of property owners as to the name that you are giving to this license. You're calling it a Certificate of Rental Suitability. In addition to being an attorney for some 28 years for the property owners, I'm also an attorney in private practice. I guarantee you that my brothers and sisters at the Bar, the lawyers in the City, will attack you mercilessly if you are going to be calling this property suitable. Every time a tenant is injured in a property, 65 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 you can be sure that some lawyer is going to come in and sue the landlord. That, we have all the time. But draw you in as well and say, You certified the property as suitable. Now, you may have protection from your sovereign immunity. Perhaps you do; perhaps you don't. But I would consider very carefully from the City's perspective before you certify that this property is suitable, because as soon as somebody falls in some hole or something, the City may likely be sued as well. My sixth issue relates to the handbook which we're hearing about. I must confess to you that I have never seen it. I'm not sure where it came from. I'm sure it's very nicely written. I would ask that before you approve this bill, that we have an opportunity to look at that handbook. I would suggest that perhaps with our expertise dealing with properties, dealing with tenants, that we could add to that and maybe make some 66 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 corrections to that handbook which will impress upon both sides of this issue their various rights and responsibilities. My seventh concern relates to the Section 3.1. It's again on . It's listed as .1. (Mr. Zaslow was given handbook.)

Thank you. 1 and it says that a failure by the owner to correct violations within 30 days is a violation of this ordinance. 1 correctly states that sometimes 30 days is way too long. If you have a property which has some significant violation that's a health violation, a safety violation, to say that we should have 30 days to fix it is much too lenient on the property owner, and that's why the section clearly states that if the Department says that the notice is critical in some fashion, that they can 67 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 say it has to be done sooner than 30 days. My request would be that you also add language there that if the Department says that it's not a violation of health and safety and if the Department says that more time is required to correct the violation, that the Department in addition to accelerating the time within which the violation must be corrected, the Department also has the opportunity to extend that time in an appropriate circumstance which the Department itself may ascertain. Three last items. One is a matter of existing law I draw to your attention because it has bothered me since the day I left Temple law school. It's been the law for many years, and that's what we have in the existing bill. You're not amending the bill. I'm just complaining because I have the opportunity to do so, and, that is, this language in the existing law that if a landlord doesn't give this license, the 68 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 tenant doesn't have to pay rent and the landlord is not allowed to collect rent. As I understood my constitutional law, which is many years ago I suppose, that's an interference with private right of contract. Because we didn't give some piece of paper, which has nothing to do with the real suitability of this premises, to say that we can't collect rent and a tenant shouldn't have to pay rent, I think that's inappropriate. I look forward with the gentleman and lady from CLS, who I know so well, with litigating perhaps that with them some day. I would ask you to amend that out of the bill. I don't exactly see you writing that down as something that you're going to accomplish for us. My ninth issue, however, is something which we are rather insistent upon as being problematic, and, that is, what we call in our industry the right of private action. On the bill which you've 69 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 given us, it's the last page. 4. And the proposal here is to give every tenant in the City the right to bring an action against the property owner for not complying with this bill. If it's a law and we have to do it, we should have to do it, and I understand. And your staff, Mr. Mariano, has educated me on the need perhaps for a tenant to be able to do something because the City is overwhelmed and can't, but I would ask that you consider amending that section 14 as well to provide something along the lines of the tenant's responsibility to raise that issue of not having received a license within a reasonable period of time after moving in. If a tenant moves in and years later has an argument with the landlord and all the sudden is going to say, I'm not paying you rent, you didn't give me a license, I'm bringing this private action, it's inappropriate. If a tenant didn't get their license that they should have gotten, they should have 70 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 days to raise that issue, and if they raise the issue within 20 days, the landlord should have ten days to come into compliance, and if they don't, the tenant should be able to move out without any penalty to them whatsoever, return of security deposit and whatnot. But I would urge upon you an amendment that this right of private action, which we are so dead set against in general -- you don't need us to tell you our fear that the excellent advocates for the tenants organizations that you know so well are going to hammer us with this.

Their intention is that their 17 meetings, when they come into City 18 properties and use your rooms and 19 courtrooms and everything else and 20 mediation rooms to educate tenants on how to take care of their landlord, this is going to figure big. They're going to say, You go to your landlord right away. Did you get that license? Every tenant is going to bring 71 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 an action, and it's going to be an inappropriate sword put in the hands of tenants. So I would request that there be an amendment there to say that the private right, which the tenant has, must be exercised within days, and if not 8 so exercised is waived. Not that that in 9 any way relieves the landlord of the 10 responsibility to keep the property in 11 compliance with codes, in compliance with 12 the warrant of habitability, just that 13 this private right of action should not 14 be an unlimited right of the tenant. 15 Issue No. " Mr. Chairman, I thank you very much again for your time this morning. I thank your staff for working with us as recently, as I say, this morning. We're available for questions, and we hope that you will in summary decide with us that listening to these ten concerns, that enough of them require further review and tweaking of the language to make this really work, that perhaps it shouldn't leave your Committee today. We should have a chance with all the actors before you today to make some language changes, get a feel for how vehemently the opposition feels about these changes. They may not. I found them to be reasonable, and they're being reasonable this morning. So perhaps with another week or three, we can correct this 73 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 language. I would ask that we be given that time, that this not be reported out this morning.

Thank you, Mr. Zaslow. Any questions for Mr. Zaslow? Councilman Clarke.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning. Could you clarify your issue with respect to the language in Section 3, that the free from defects and including those which materially affect the health and the safety of the occupants? What exactly is the nature of your concern?

As an attorney, if I represented a tenant, which I'm due in court at 12:45 to do my best to hammer some landlord that's not treating a tenant right, it says that the operating systems are free from defects. Free from defects means that the slightest defect is going to be a violation of this 74 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 ordinance. So when you say "including those," when you say it's a defect, including those which materially affect health and safety, means all defects. That's what the language means as it now reads. It means all defects. Take out the words "including those" to make it clear that we're talking about defects materially affecting health and safety, as the last phrase clearly says --

So you want the "free from defects" or "including those" come out?

Take out the words "including those." So it would read, "The operating systems and the property are free from defects which materially affect the health and safety of the occupants." And then our -- I'm not happy with that either, don't get me wrong, because who knows what some inspector is going to say what materially affecting health and safety may have to 75 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 live with, but to say any defect --

Your problem is with any defect.

Yes.

That's all relative to who believes it's a defect. I mean, are you concerned that this is so ambiguous that defects could mean anything?

Well, I am concerned about the ambiguity even with matters affecting health and safety. I think that is a defect. That's a problem with the bill also.

That's more specific to the nature of some of the issues that we're dealing with.

My concern is as an attorney reading this, if I was looking to utilize this law, I would read "the operating systems and the property are free from defects, including those which materially affect health and safety," it clearly means it includes 76 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 health and safety --

So you only want us to refer to the defects that deal with health and safety?

Yes.

And not all defects?

Correct.

I just wanted to clarify that in my mind.

I saw, for example, one of the individuals testifying just before me, I think they were holding a sign which says something about downspouts. I was sitting in the back. I couldn't see it. A downspout can be a hassle, but a downspout doesn't mean a landlord shouldn't be able to get a license to rent a property, because you'll have tenants that have no place to live as well. So a downspout needs to be corrected, but we should not be deprived of a license for the defect of a downspout. 77 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010

Well, I think that the intent of some of the individuals that are here to testify would like us to address all defects, all Code violations, not necessarily those that specifically deal with health and safety issues based on some of the signs and some of the testimony. And I understand you want to limit the scope of this bill, but I'm a little concerned that if we only deal with this specific language as it relates to health and safety, that some people may leave here not being happy that we've allowed some of the other lesser Code violations to essentially not be subject to this bill.

The lesser Code violations are mandates of law. Our owners are fined for not complying. They must comply with these lesser violations. To deny the right to rent, the 40 percent or the one out of five or whatever it is that's going to have minor violations and say, You can't get a license for a minor 78 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 violation, it's going to have a terrible impact not just on the property owners, it will, but on the people that want to rent the properties, because there will not be properties to rent if you have to give a property which is free from defects. I'll look around this room. I'll bring an inspector in. I assure you I'll find defects in here.

Guaranteed.

There we go. So to say that you shouldn't have a license to sit in this room right now because of some minor defect is not appropriate. If the ceiling is falling in and we're all freezing here because of no heat, we should not be here, but to say that because that tile is loose in the corner and the Code requires all the walls to be smooth, clean and tight, we feel that's a little much.

Who do you suggest would determine the level of 79 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 defect that should be subject to this bill beyond the health and safety issue?

To our chagrin and to our dismay, we leave that to Licenses and Inspections. They have the power over us to make their decision to this moment that this affects the health and safety, and if they're going to declare that -- it's kind of like obscenity, if I may say so, Councilman. A famous line, "I can't define it, I know it when I see it." We will know when something is a violation of health and safety. And an owner who doesn't see it and has to be told by some inspector, that violates health and safety, the owner deserves what he gets. But we rely on the inspectors.

So if the Department of License and Inspection has more definitive language as it relates to what they believe or maybe we or this group of people here who are supportive of the bill believe should be subject to 80 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 this bill, then you would be comfortable with that?

I'm not sure if I have the capability, or any of us do, to specify in ultimate detail exactly what is safety and health and what is not. The nebulous definition which we all live under, materially affecting the health and safety of the occupants, it has a meaning I think in the law. If you went in front of a judge, a judge is going to know whether or not it materially affects the health and safety or not.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Zaslow, thank you. I don't really have a question. It's more of a statement. I think everything you said is probably a great point and everything the people that were before you said was probably a great point. One of the quandaries of being an elected official, 81 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 and that's, I guess, why we do this, besides being insane, is because we try to satisfy everybody, and I think you're probably the same kind of person. If you get hired to do a job, you do it. So this is really a hard thing to do because you see the different extremes that we have to deal with. So I'm going to probably vote this out here today. There's going to be a little help on your part and anyone else that hasn't -- there's still some people. We'll try to vote this out today, but I want to give you my word, and if I'm not here, maybe I could get the Councilwoman or the Councilman or all the other people up here, to make sure before this gets to a vote on the floor -- we're going to amend this today for the amendments you've seen, but because of the situation of L&I and getting things out, we'll vote it out like this, if my colleague so deem it right, and I'll give you my word and I think I can get Councilman Clarke when he 82 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 gets done over there, I'm certain I can get Councilwoman Brown, Councilman Rizzo and Councilman Kelly to make sure this won't come up until it's amended again on the floor. We've done that before. You can't be perfectly happy. They can't be perfectly happy, but there has to be some common ground in the middle. I think we can get there without destroying the whole base of people renting apartments.

Councilman, we hope you will be here to shepherd that through. Ms. Webb would like to say a word, if the Councilman doesn't mind.

Please.

Yes. I am a landlord. I own five properties, 11 units, in South Philadelphia. I'm not an attorney, but I'm just going to give you my view as a landlord. I have no opposition to adding a copy of my rental -- you're calling it 83 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 a Rental Suitability Certificate, to my lease. There's no problem at all with that. And I also right now give out a pamphlet to every tenant about lead-based paint. I think that's federally mandated. Someone gave me this through the back, so I don't know who it was. And I'd be very glad to be giving this out or whatever kind of booklet it is to attach to my lease. I want to be compliant. Now, my question is, I already do get a license for every rental unit, and it's renewed yearly. Will this new certificate be in addition to that other landlord license or is it instead of? Because then I'm looking at something that this is another nuisance tax. Now, I know generalization is a very bad thing, and different people have come up and said most landlords are so horrible. I belong to HAPCO. We have 3,000 members, and I guess I'll 84 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 generalize as well. I feel all the landlords really take care of their properties. They are out of business if they don't take care of their properties. If somebody's heat goes out, they're going to go and take care of it. If there's a roof leak, they're going to take care of it. They're not going to let it go on and on and on. First of all, their property goes down. And now the way property values are escalating in Philadelphia, on a business standpoint, that is a really stupid thing to do. You want to take care of your furnaces, you want to take care of your roofs, everything that is necessary to do that. The other thing is, you have to remember, the tenants also have responsibilities. I have smoke detectors, sometimes several, in every unit. We come in. We try to go in at least once a month. And when we go in, I can't tell you how many times we find the batteries removed. We're replacing the 85 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 batteries constantly. And why do they do it? Because a tenant doesn't want to clean their oven. Smoke comes into the kitchen or wherever and the smoke detector comes off. Well, the easiest thing to do is to remove the battery. I also have in our newer property, we have wired smoke detectors. I had one tenant cut the wires because it kept going off because she wasn't cleaning the oven. So, I mean, there's responsibility on both sides, and you can't be too harsh. There's two sides to every story. So I assume that is -- and on the legal side, I mean, Mr. Zaslow, of course, has gotten everything, but my biggest question is, is this certificate in lieu of the other or is it in addition?

I've been informed by the Department that it is in addition to. Real briefly, with respect to 86 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 this whole issue about tenant responsibility -- and I agree with you that I think all parties should be responsible. Your organization or any other organization, have you all taken a proactive approach to dealing with this issue as it relates to tenants and property owners and coming up with solutions? Because earlier in your testimony you said you've just been given minutes to respond to these 13 amendments. I know that the tenant 14 organizations have been very aggressive 15 in terms of taking care of tenant 16 responsibilities. 17 The question is, as it relates 18 to landlords, have you all been proactive 19 in coming to some solutions as it relates 20 to this landlord-tenant relationship or have you essentially just been responding to the action being taken by the --

Councilman, I could write for you a law code which would be a wonderful thing for property 87 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 owners. I don't think you're interested in exactly receiving it. We are on the --

You shouldn't assume that.

I'm experienced in this Chamber for so many decades that with all due respect, we do assume it. This bill is an example --

Sir, in all due respect, this is the first time I've ever seen you. You're talking to me. You're not talking to any other Councilperson.

I understand that, but the example is -- I don't want to spar with you, Councilman, but the example is the bill this morning, which has been corrected. I don't want to dredge something up. We found out about this Tuesday of last week. It had been written by the people who just testified I don't know when. We were not called in to say, Let's solve a problem together, 88 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 here's the issue, what do you propose. We received it luckily online. We got a copy of it. Luckily three or four days later, you get a copy from the Clerk and you jump and you react, and luckily the Councilman's staff was right on it and was willing to meet with us, and they did. But we're not at the table when you're writing this. We are, if we're lucky, finding out about it in the nick of time to try to save our interests in the matter. So in the future, if you're looking for our assistance, we are here. We're ready, willing and able to tell you how we think properties should be run in the City to avoid the need for you to own every property in the City. Because you can have all public housing. Public housing is so easy. All you have to do is put lots of money into that. When we see the money you spend on public housing, we're in shock. Landlords, 89 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 private landlords, have to run a property on a shoestring with a little profit margin. The City can afford, wherever the governments are, you can afford to say, Let's put $250,000 into some units. Father praised some houses that were built. I do also. It's wonderful. Of course. A quarter million dollars each. I can build a house too for that kind of money, but to say to a property owner like sitting right next to me at the table, You own a house, it's 100 years old and you're going to maintain it like the new $250,000 house, it just doesn't exactly work. So certainly there's two sides to the issue, any issue. We're here. We're always willing to be a part of it. In the future, we can be a part of it earlier on and we wouldn't have to have all this testimony. We could have handed in by stipulation, Here's the bill, please enact it, we all are on the same page. Because I deal with -- all the 90 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 lawyers that sat here who you heard from, I deal with them on the state level. We all deal together on landlord-tenant issues forever. Out in Harrisburg, we go out there, all of us, we go out once a month to argue with each other about these kinds of things, but they have your ear and we do not exactly have your ear. But I appreciate receiving it this morning.

Am I correct in saying that your response to my question is that you have not been proactive in the past, but you're more than willing to be proactive in the future as it relates to coming to some consensus on some of these issues as it relates to the landlord-tenant issues?

We are always looking to be proactive on all of the issues. We are proactive with our members to educate them on their responsibilities and to dodge the bullets that the tenants and City Council 91 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 sometimes is firing at us, but --

See, it doesn't seem like you're understanding me. What I'm asking you, you know that there's a problem out there and your members know there's a problem, and it's been a problem for probably as long as there have been landlords and tenants, and what I'm asking you, have you taken the bull by the horns, so to speak? And I know that it's a little different situation with landlords as it relates to the tenants. Have you sat down with your members in the past and said, We have an issue, let's craft some language or let's craft some recommendations on how we can get a better relationship between the landlords and the tenants and the activist organizations, and maybe then we can go to City Council together and come up with some solutions so we don't end up in here in a somewhat contentious environment, so all parties will have some certain levels of responsibility, 92 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 both landlord and tenant, the elected officials will have some level of responsibility, the administration, and craft an agreement that makes some sense for all people? That's what I'm trying to --

That's, of course, well stated, Councilman. Our relationship with the tenant rights advocates and representatives is excellent, much better in the last 15, 13 years than it has ever been, because of 14 the people sitting here testifying before 15 you. It's a personality thing sometimes, 16 a willingness to compromise as we saw 17 this morning. 18 Again, I don't want to say too 19 many times, because I've said it already. 20 I agree with you, we should all work together. It's hard to be the one being worked on. All these bills -- we don't see bills being introduced. Ms. Webb said to you the tenants are causing this problem, 93 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 the tenants are doing that. Pass a law saying any tenant that cuts a wire, takes out a smoke detector battery is going to be fined $300 a day like we're fined. Introduce the law. Proactive. There's a law for you. You heard it today. The tenants don't clean the ovens. They take out the batteries. Tell a tenant, You take out the battery from smoke detectors, it's a dangerous thing to do, you will be fined $300 per day for every day that you have that battery out, and let them pay the City $30,000 in fines. So that would be something proactive. But I appreciate your sense, Councilman, that we should work together. We do wish to work together. We're working together right now, and I hope that it's -- our partnership is going well.

One thing, too, I must say how we are proactive in HAPCO. There's a newsletter that goes out monthly. Within that newsletter if the 94 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 Board members or whatever discover things that are possible that other landlords may be not complying with the law, it is brought up. So that's how we are -- that's what HAPCO is, is an organization, and that's how we are proactive. We want to be good landlords. We want to get along with our tenants. We want to have good housing.

Thank you.

Thank you. Any other questions for these witnesses? (No response.)

Seeing none.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you.

Thank you. The Apartment Association of Greater Philadelphia, Christine Young-Gertz. Thank you, ma'am. 95 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010

Good morning.

Good morning. State your name for the record and your association.

My name is Christine Young-Gertz, Y-O-U-N-G hyphen G-E-R-T-Z. It's my privilege to serve the Apartment Association of Greater Philadelphia in the capacity of the Government Affairs Manager, and I want to thank you for this time to offer our thoughts on the proposed ordinance. I'd just like to start by saying the Apartment Association of Greater Philadelphia is comprised of members who are owners of large multi-family housing units. We serve approximately 135,000 to 140,000 units in the Philadelphia area. I believe within Philadelphia itself, roughly 40,000, perhaps 50,000 units in the City of Philadelphia. With regard to the proposed ordinance -- and, again, I thank you for 96 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 giving me the latest copy. I haven't studied it too well because it was not available until very soon before the hearing. What I want to say at the start, the Apartment Association is in complete agreement with the spirit of this ordinance. We have no desire to stand in anyone's way to promote quality housing, health and safety issues in the City of Philadelphia and in surrounding communities. We very proudly serve a very diverse population of tenants, and our members are committed to providing quality, affordable, safe housing to a diverse population of tenants. A number of my thoughts have been expressed here today, but if I might again say that we're in total agreement with the spirit of this legislation. As a practical matter with regard to the timeliness of its implementation, we would respectfully request that some additional work be done on particular 97 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 language with regard to any assurances we can get about how quickly, for instance, the Certificate of Rental Suitability would be available. As an example, a number of my members own and manage student housing. The turnover is pretty quick. And I can think of any number of other situations where a tenant needs to rent an apartment really soon. Emergency situations, I got to get an apartment yesterday. It happens all the time. We had discussions about the availability of this certificate on L&I's website. I would ask for some guarantees that it be up and running in absolutely a clear instantaneous way of acquiring such a certificate. We can't responsibly rent to tenants without it. And tenants will be put behind the eight ball, Well, we're waiting for such a certificate to come through. The other practical matters are -- and, again, it's been touched on, 98 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 but with regard to the timeliness of L&I updating records regarding lesser Code violations or in a situation where a landlord has been cited or is working on correcting a defect, it happens every day, I'm sure. They're working with L&I. L&I has been out. Things are going back and forth. Things are in the works to correct that defect. And, again, we have to keep in mind the idea of lesser codes versus much more grievous health and safety violations. Can there be language in this that would guarantee still the availability of rental suitability if things are happening with regard to correcting things that come up and the timeliness of L&I records? Another point I'd like to make -- and, again, it's been raised, but if I may reiterate, there is now an inspection fee, and I just want to go on record to oppose this additional inspection fee. I know often times our 99 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 members have said that when L&I comes out to inspect, they don't actually inspect the unit. They inspect the building. Well, if I may offer for the inspection fees and requirements that are in place, can the units be inspected and can that inspection be good for a year? That would be a much more doable way for the landlord to be able to rent apartments.

Excuse me. Councilman Rizzo has got a question for you.

Yes.

This may be helpful, and I hope I understand, I believe there's been a proposed amendment that would take the inspection process out. So if that's corrected, could you --

Mr. Zaslow brought it up and that would be under the guarantee that I told him in case --

Yes, and I --

But the 100 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 inspection piece --

Well, you're not going to let them vote it on the floor. Nothing is out yet because we amended it.

These are going to be amended, the inspection piece will be amended?

The way this is written is amended. There's further amendments.

Excuse me for interrupting. I wanted you to know that.

Not at all. And I want you to know how I appreciate your willingness to work with landlord groups in order to correct some of these things. As I say, I know that I'm simply repeating a lot that's been brought before you anyway today.

That's fine.

But in any 101 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 event -- actually, then I will sum up my arguments, my time, by just again if we can work together and ensure the practicalities of the situation. Also, I can think of a situation where a landlord may not have access to the Internet and honestly there might be a timeliness problem that would interfere with the landlord's ability to rent a unit and interfere with the tenant's ability to quickly rent an apartment. Again, we've got to work out the nuts and bolts of getting these certificates. If I could just say to close, again, I am proud to represent an organization that consists of members of very responsible landlords, and I know that any of our members, and I in particular, would be ready, willing, able and most pleased to work with Council in any capacity to frame language and to further hone this ordinance so that it doesn't impinge on the right of responsible landlords to continue to 102 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 provide quality housing. Thank you.

My knowledgeable legislative aide told me at the end of your speech there, there's a kiosk over at L&I in the basement where in case you might touch the point where in case a landlord doesn't have any access to the Internet, you can come -- I know it's probably a pain for somebody to come downtown, but if they were downtown, they could get some time and go over there. It's a little area that's open where you can go in and check everything out electronically.

And maybe other procedures may be via some telephone conversations with L&I or something of that nature.

I think a statement from me, what I really think I'm hearing here is, and I'm looking at Mr. Haigler, isn't there someone that meets regularly, some type of board that we should know about so Mr. Zaslow and 103 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 your comments, which were well taken, where proactively things can be done? Aside this bill, whatever comes after this and what may come in the future, there's boards for everything in this City, and that's up to the people on the second floor who puts on the board. Is there a board -- I'm sure there's a Fair Housing Board, but is there anything like that? Does anyone know anything about that? (No response.)

Well, if we can start too with just general contacts, and I can provide you with my e-mail and address and that kind of thing.

Thank you. You can see Anthony after this and we'll certainly help you. Thank you. Any questions for this witness? (No response.)

Seeing none, thank you.

Thank you. 104 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010

Community Legal Service, Linda Ware-Johnson -- or Christine. I'm sorry. Linda. I'm sorry. That was Christine. Neither of you are Linda, right?

I'm not Linda.

See what happens when you get 50. You can't see. I'm getting hot flashes. I don't know what's going on.

Good morning and thank you for hearing from me, even if I'm not Linda Ware-Johnson. I am Michael Carroll. I am with Community Legal Services.

And George Gould again, also with Community Legal Services.

Thank you, George.

I appreciate the opportunity. I've been a Legal Services lawyer for about 28 years and the last 19 105 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 in the housing unit of CLS. And I had to get out the calculator. I thought I might be wrong in those numbers, but they're right. But then I heard Father John McNamee talking this morning, and I talked to him beforehand, and he said he was 20-some years at Saint Malachy, 40-some years as a priest, so I was kind of humbled by that. And George has been at CLS for about 110 years now. So I feel like a rookie still. So I didn't feel so bad. But in that time, I have worked for and with thousands of Philadelphians who have suffered greatly because of rental housing that was in poor condition. Contrary to some stereotypes, many of these aggrieved people were not paying bargain rents for substandard rented homes and apartments. Too often they were paying substantial rents and not getting what they paid for. Too many of them were the vulnerable elderly, the very young, the ill and the infirm. Many 106 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 were working hard to pay middle-class rents for poor rental properties. The ordinance that you are considering here today as amended promises to be a useful tool to help address the problems of substandard rental housing in Philadelphia. What the proposed ordinance would do -- and I could skip over -- I drew lines through a lot of my testimony because a lot of it has been covered this morning. You already know what it will do. You know better than I what it will do, attestations and certifications. But the City under the proposed ordinance as amended would make sure that landlords had the required licenses and that there were no Code violations at the property. These provisions are based upon common sense and basic fairness. They do nothing more than require a landlord to deliver what the landlord promised to deliver and what the law and the lease contract require. 107 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 If the landlord does not comply with the law and contract, the amended ordinance would deny the benefit that would otherwise go to the landlord. And here I lobbed out another paragraph because it's been said more than once. But let me say, this is not so much creating more government regulation as it is giving tenants the power to seek a remedy themselves without waiting for a busy City inspector to visit the property or trying to find a lawyer to go to court. The proposed ordinance would give the tenant additional protections that did not require waiting for the government. There are plenty of good landlords, but, unfortunately, there are too many irresponsible ones as well. Irresponsible landlords pose a danger not just to their tenants but to the entire neighborhood where the rental property is located. In my experience, an irresponsible landlord may not respond to 108 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 a letter or call from a tenant complaining about a heat or plumbing problem, but this bill creates one more reason for the landlord to respond. All the landlord need do to avoid problems is to follow the law. Following the law in this area requires nothing more than delivering on promises made. The ordinance would encourage compliance with the law, and that would avoid problems for both landlord and tenant. Thank you.

Just to add a quick comment, both of the speakers representing property owners in the City talked about the timeliness of L&I, and I think we have a commitment from L&I that it would be done timely. I think it's in everybody's interest that the certificates be done timely. If it could be put on the Internet and have access to it, we think it would be a great idea and that it run smoothly and that landlords in fact are able to get these 109 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 certificates if in fact they're appropriate to be issued, and we certainly agree with that.

And, again, the word we're getting, by the end of the fiscal year, they're going to be online. Mr. Haigler, do you want to come back up? He has to hold the bag for everybody that works in L&I every time he comes over here.

Again, Otis Haigler, Director of Legislative Affairs for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. I've just conferred with my bosses over in Licenses and Inspections, and the 180 days is good, but we would like to try to extend that to the first of the year, the first of 2007. As you know, when we're trying to implement new computerization, things do happen and you may have to do a little revision on what 110 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 your plans are. So just to give us a little cushion and a little leeway, we would ask if we could amend that to allow us to implement this at the first of the year. Thank you.

Sounds good to me.

We think that it's a good idea that it be up, ready to go.

Again, what we'll do is, we'll work on this the way it is. We'll let it out of Committee, but we won't bring it up to a vote on the floor until everything is worked out. I think we got that agreement from everyone in here. Everyone understand that premise? Okay. So I guess this is the end of the public hearing for the Committee on License and Inspection. We're going to go right into a public meeting. 111 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 I want to wait for Councilman Clarke to come back. He also is over 50, so it's hard to sit here for four hours and not visit the men's room once. (Pause.)

He's the man, Councilman Clarke. Councilman, we're in the public meeting, and I want to introduce these amendments to Bill 060010. Everyone has a copy of the amendments. Now, again, these are going to be the amendments we're going to vote out of Committee, but we will change what we need to change with a consensus of all the groups here before it comes up on the floor before the first reading, so -- it will come up for a first reading, but after that, we can still amend it. Councilman, do you want to make a motion?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I move to approve 112 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 the amendments to Bill No. 060010. (Duly seconded.)

A motion has been made and seconded. All those in favor say aye. (Aye.)

Opposed? (No response.)

Seeing none, it's amended. Councilman.

Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 060010 as amended be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation. Do you want a rules suspension?

No. We don't need a rules suspension for this one, because we'll take our time on it.

Be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation.

The motion has been made. Do I hear a second? 113 2/6/06 - L&I - BILL 060010 (Duly seconded.)

Made and seconded. All those in favor say aye. (Aye.)

Opposed? (No response.)

Seeing none, it's out of Committee. We'll take care of it before it gets to the floor, and that's the end of the public meeting of License and Inspection. Thank you, everyone. (Committee on Licenses and Inspections adjourned at 11:50 a.m.) - - - 114 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on February 6, 2006, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)