COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING BEFORE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, 5/9/01 1:25 p.m. - - - RES. NO. 010281 - Authorizing the City Council's Public Safety Committee to fully investigate and conduct public hearings related to the sinking homes problem affecting residents in the Feltonville section of the City of Philadelphia, including the progress and plans made by the City of Philadelphia on the issue, and further authorizing the committee to issue subpoenas and such other processes as may be appropriate to compel the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents in furtherance of the investigation to full extent authorized by Section 16 2-401 of the Home Rule Charter. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ, Chair COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI, Vice Chair COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 I N D E X Panel 1, Feltonville Residents Mildred Serrano . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 Rose Marie Mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 Angel Nieves. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 6 Francisco Rodriguez . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 Gloria Melendez . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32 7 Maria Cruz. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 33 Louise Gonzales . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34 8 Ms. Ruiz. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 Anna Vasquez. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36 9 Marvin Walker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41 Irma Rodriguez. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43 10 Lisa Burgos . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45 Judy Rodriguez. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47 11 Unidentifiable Witness. . . . . . . . . . . . 64 Jose Hernandez. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 65 12 Panel 2, Clergy Members 13 Rev. Kermit Newkirk . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 Harold O'Davis Memorial Baptist Church 14 Rev. Mary Laney, St. Gabriel's. . . . . . . . 57 15 Panel 3, Logan Assistance Corporation 16 John Thomas, President. . . . . . . . . . . . 78 Nayeem Sultan, Deputy Director. . . . . . . . 92 Reverend Duc. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 94 US Army Corps of Engineers John Burnes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 96 City of Philadelphia Witnesses Robert Solvibile, L&I . . . . . . . . . . . . 116 Joseph Perrello, Deputy Director of Finance. . 117 Risk Management 3 P R O C E E D I N G S
Good afternoon, buenos tardes, and welcome to the hearing on the Public Safety Committee. (Councilman Ortiz continues by addressing attendees in Spanish.)
We have hearings on a resolution sponsored by Donna Reed Miller and myself and cosponsored by the huge majority of City Council on the sinking homes of Feltonville. I want to welcome you all, and I would like the clerk to please read the resolution.
A resolution authorizing the City Council's Public Safety Committee to fully investigate and conduct public hearings related to the sinking homes problem affecting residents in the Feltonville section of the City of Philadelphia, including the progress and plans made by the City of Philadelphia on the issue, and further authorizing the committee to issue subpoenas and such other processes as may be appropriate to compel the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents in furtherance of the investigation to full extent authorized by 4 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Section 2-401 of the Home Rule Charter.
Thank you very much. Let me begin by saying the following: For the last two years, the people of Feltonville have been going through not a new problem, because the people of Feltonville had gone through the same problem ten years ago, when we actually removed a whole neighborhood that used to live -- very nice stately homes on the Boulevard and across the way. That became known as "the Logan problem," Logan homes. We have gone through this problem before also in Wingohocking -- and Councilwoman Krajewski is here -- where a nice neighborhood, very nice neighborhood, found itself almost overnight sinking into the ground. And people who had spent their lifetime savings on mortgages, on keeping the grounds up, on maintaining the surrounding area, where this home was their whole lifetime investment, found themselves all of a sudden without -- and they were losing that lifetime investment. The City moved quickly in Wingohocking and did not move as quickly in Logan and found a resolution. 5 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Today the subsidence problem -- and "subsidence" is a nice way to say "sinking homes" -- poses a threat to the residents below Logan, below the Boulevard. For the last two years, these residents have been wrestling with the fear that they were going to be evicted from their homes, and once they're evicted from their homes, I would imagine that their homes would be destroyed and torn down. But they have paid their mortgages and they still owe their mortgages. Just because they have to leave their home, the bank is not going to forgive those mortgages and the bank is not going to come back and say, Here's money so that you can then go out and buy another house, and it's very nice that you paid all of that money, but you still have all of this other money to pay, and you better pay it. And they have a problem. I would imagine at this point the apprehension that goes on. I think every time they see a City vehicle, fear runs through their minds. There's a lot of apprehension and fear that goes on. This is where they raised their kids. This is where those kids fell down and cried and played ball and went back 6 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 home and complained to their mothers. Now, we want to hear first from the community and we want to hear from the City government what it has done, or proposes to do, with regard to this issue. But it is not unique to Feltonville. This is a problem that we're having in other areas. Today will not be the last hearing. Do not think that we're going to come up with a solution today. It will not be the last hearing, but a solution will have to come. We are talking about Neighborhood Transformation Initiative, and we're talking about, through that initiative, eliminating blight. The Feltonville neighborhood to me is the poster child, or should be the poster child, of the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative. Working-class people with mortgages, earning their income, having kids and families. Let us not go down the road of Logan, where we still have a problem and a solution is still not forthcoming. Let us make sure that the solution is maintaining, rebuilding, and keeping this neighborhood together. They have proven 7 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 themselves. It is not their fault that these homes are like they are. They did not cause the problem. They are not the culprits of the situation. It is not for lack of maintenance that this is happening. Let us make sure that we act as the government should act, with the compassion that we should have. Councilwoman Miller.
Thank you, Councilman Ortiz. I'd like to first welcome and -- welcome everyone that came here today to be a part of this public hearing and to also express my appreciation for you coming. Today is your day to be heard, and I know that your cries, according to what I've been told, went unanswered and you felt that no one listened when the problem was first discovered in Logan many, many years ago. You're here today and I'm glad to see that you're here. And I'm glad since July of '99, when I was first made aware of this problem, that we at least now have had the Army Corps of Engineers 8 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 report, 'cause back then, there was none. And we also have a protocol written by this administration that helped me understand the nature and the scope of the problem, a problem that I never thought was just due to homeowner or to lack of homeowner maintenance. And as you recall, in July of 1999, I wrote a letter to the L&I Commissioner to help for help for your area, and the response to me wasn't all that favorable. But since that time, we have to move forward. We have had the help of our federal elected officials to come in and our state elected officials to also take a look at the problem, and that's one of the reasons why we did get the Army Corps of Engineers report. I just couldn't imagine that the problems that I've saw in Feltonville were all homeowner problems due to lack of home maintenance. So when I toured the area and went in a few of the houses, I could certainly feel the tilt, and I certainly heard the cries and pleas for help from the residents in the Feltonville area. Today, we're here to once again, you 9 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 know, begin to work on and address the problem. I just think it's a problem that the City, the State, and the federal government has to form some type of partnership to resolve. I'm not going to make a thesis statement the way my colleague did, 'cause I want to get on with the hearings. And I just want to again say thank you. And hopefully today, we can work towards a resolve. Thank you for coming.
Thank you. Today we have with us from my right Frank Rizzo; Councilman Darrell Clarke, who told me that perhaps this is the only problem that he doesn't have in his district, but he has a whole lot of others; Donna Reed Miller, Blondell Reynolds Brown; and Councilwoman Krajewski. Councilwoman, do you want --
No, I would -- I -- thank you Mr. Chairman. I just want to echo the comments from my colleagues. I know just exactly how these people feel. I know to see their homes go, to have to uproot their home and leave, it's devastating. And I just want you to know that I'm here to support in any way, shape, 10 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 or form to help you.
Thank you. I have a letter from Congressman Bob Brady, and I want to say that Georgie Perez from Councilman Brady's office has been a very integral part of what has happened in terms of going to the meetings and keeping abreast, keeping the Congressman informed as to what was going on. And I know that Georgie has attended more meetings than I have and my staff, Danny Rodriguez and (indiscernible), who are always there, but with Georgie, I can say Georgie has been there, and I want to say thank you to Georgie for doing the work.
Yeah, she's here. There's Shirley from Congressman Bob Brady's office. And the office has paid attention to this issue, and I want to say that -- I want to read this letter from the Congressman into the record. It says: 11 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 "Dear Councilman Ortiz: Thank you for inviting me to attend your hearing on May 9, 2001 to discuss the difficulties our constituents in Feltonville are experiencing. Unfortunately, due to the legislative calendar, I will be in Washington on that day. "As you know, I have been deeply involved with this issue since it first came to light. After hearing from my constituents, I immediately secured a commitment from the Department of Housing and Urban Development to cease marketing homes in the sinking area to unsuspecting buyers and to relocate current homeowners whose properties are in dangerous conditions. I also secured an Army Corps of Engineers study of the neighborhood, which identified the blocks that are subject to subsidence problems. "Next, I convened a high-level meeting between senior HUD and City officials in Washington, which produced a commitment from the Clinton administration to make FHA foreclosed properties available to the City before they went in the open market. This would provide for the 12 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 relocation of at least some of the affected homeowners. HUD also committed to working to identify new revenue sources and to show flexibility in its interpretation of rules and regulations to allow for creative funding applications by the City. "Additionally, working through the Army Corps of Engineers, I identified a source of revenue through which the City might conduct pre-development studies and perhaps some of the initial engineering necessary to redevelop the area. "I have been, and continue to be, available to work with Council and the City administration to secure federal support for these hard-working residents who are suffering from this unforeseen disaster. " And, you know, he is doing a job because George Bush is also trying to do a job on us, and I want him in Washington at this point in time. Mr. ) from Senator Specter's office is here and I hope that you can 13 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 take a message back to Senator Specter that we need his help, we need his help, and we need Senator Santorum's help along these lines. Again, we have a letter from Congressman Borski that is also signed by Congressman Bob Brady, and it is -- I would like to read that letter into the record. "Dear Members of the Committee on Public Safety: We would like to thank the committee for holding this important hearing and for allowing us to submit our statement on this matter. "Let us first mention that we and this Congress are fully aware of the subsidence problems in the Feltonville section of the city. We're working all levels of government to ensure this problem is addressed in a timely and appropriate fashion. To that end, we are pleased to see the Army Corps of Engineers' strong handle on this serious and devastating issue. "You may know that in the Veterans Affairs and Housing and Urban Development fiscal year 2001 appropriation legislation, we worked to secure $300,000 for the relocation of residents 14 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 and $250,000 for the city for the purpose of demolition. In addition, we have submitted an appropriation request of $150,000 for an assessment study in the energy and water appropriation legislation for fiscal year 2002. It is our belief that such a study will help us determine the scope of the problem at hand. While the current subsidence problems are of great concern to us now, it is extremely important to identify all possible sites that may have subsidence issues and have full understanding of the problems we may be facing in the future. "We would also like to stress the importance of city, state, and federal and local should work together seamlessly in addressing and solving this issue.
We look forward to assisting you in this area, and please do not hesitate to contact us for further help. " Congressman Borski and Congress Bob Brady, thank you both. And now I'd like to call to the stand Mildred Serrano and a committee of Feltonville 15 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 residents. )
You got to pull the microphone close to you like I have it right here like that, and identify yourself for the record.
Good afternoon, Chairman Ortiz and members of the Public Safety Committee present here today. My name is Mildred Serrano, and on behalf of the Feltonville Committee, I would like to take to -- I would like to thank Councilman Angel Ortiz and Donna Reed Miller for having the courage to take the lead in the investigation of the Feltonville sinking home issue. I have some pictures of the homes in our particular residence for you to take a look at. We are representatives of the Feltonville community and are here today to give witness to the devastating anguish and frustration the sinking homes saga has had on our lives. For years, residents of the Feltonville community have been plagued by numerous accelerated signs of distress to the interior and exterior of our homes. Homeowners have attempted to stabilize, 16 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 correct and otherwise maintain the structural integrities of our homes for many years. This has placed an enormous financial burden on the homeowners who are still paying mortgages or home-improvement loans. It appears, however, that all of our efforts and sacrifice were made in vain because the homes were built on poor fill and continue to sink and show further signs of distress. We did not divert the creek, nor did we build our homes on loosely compressed landfill composed of ash and cinder, nor was this information ever disclosed to us. We simply purchased and tried desperately to salvage and preserve the integrity of our homes. Feltonville is not a rundown community filled with abandoned buildings, graffiti, trash and filth. We are hard-working, respectable individuals who strongly believe that our homes are the center of our family, our pride, our fortress, and our refuge. This is why we as a community refuse to accept the City's allegation that the sinking homes are due to homeowners' neglect or lack of 17 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 maintenance. The City has known and was fully aware of the sinking home problem associated with the reclaimed valley of the former Wingohocking Creek and deliberately chose not to disclose to the residents of Feltonville the consequence and potential hazards associated with homes built on the former creek bed. Preventive measures should have been implemented and residents should have been informed of this impending disaster. Instead, the City kept Feltonville in the dark and continued business as usual. Did the City assume the sinking home issue would magically disappear? Or did the City believe that residents of Feltonville were too dense or naive and would accept and condone the City's lack of involvement and keep its allegations of homeowners' neglect? The residents of Feltonville can no 21 longer continue to incur the financial burdens associated with the former Wingohocking Creek sinking home dilemma. It is time the City stopped placing blame on unsuspecting homeowners and take the initiative to do something about the problem. 18 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 We need the Mayor and the City administration to take the lead in identifying the resources needed to resolve this issue. We want to be treated like the taxpaying citizens we are. We want the same type of assistance that has already been provided to Logan, Wissinoming, and West Philadelphia community. We want to feel safe again in the comfort of our homes. Thank you.
Rose Marie Mitchell. We want help fixing our homes up. We fix 'em up, the space opens right back up again. And it's not our fault; we do everything we can to keep our houses nice. But it's against us. They just --
Seven years, I've lived in my house seven years. I don't know why they sold it to me if they knew it was falling down.
I asked the man, was it 19 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 sinking? I asked him, but they didn't tell me.
You know, that's another part of this whole problem is that these --
Right. We've had a couple constituents with those types of problems where people have known these Realtors or whomever it is selling homes that's selling homes are just shysters, and they're selling them to people, aware that there is a problem in that neighborhood. I think it's terrible.
I have an 18-year-old, 23 which is going to college this fall; I have an 11-year-old, which is here today with me; and a 3-year-old. 20 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175
And I got three grandchildren that I don't even want to come over to my house 'cause every time a bus goes by, it shakes.
I've always thought that it was just since they're older homes and it's just part of, you know, homeowners to fix up the -- you know, whatever's wrong with the property and so forth. I had no idea that it had anything to do with, you know, the foundation. I just thought it was an older home. Just like when you wear a dress and you wear it too often, you know, it breaks and it discolors and everything. So I thought it was the same thing with the home. But then talking to my neighbors, and it got worse and worse. It seems like every year, every year and a half, you would have to go back and fix the same problem all over again. And that's when we said no, there is a problem here, there has to be a problem. In fact, myself and Miss Nieves, we went down to the public library, the main public library, and we went and we got 21 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 the information that, yes, we were on a creek; yes, we were a part of the Wingohocking Creek.
And what did you do when you found out you had a problem?
Well, the first thing we did was, we started to go to all of the meetings. And at the meeting, we invited several people, public office, and informed them and so forth. We started to do rallies and everything. And, you know, it seems like everybody was, like, pushing us aside -- no, it's homeowners' negligence. In fact, when the first meeting had, that's when I met Donna Reed Miller, and we invited her down to our street, and she was, like, flabbergasted with, Oh, my God, what's going on in here? In fact, she got even dizzy when she went to visit one of the neighbor's homes. And she did write a letter. And it was a slap to our face when we got the response from L&I, saying that it was homeowners' negligence.
Right. Can I ask you this: When did you first realize -- when did you go down to the public library?
We went that summer of 22 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 1999, I believe it is, before the first meeting. I think it was possibly maybe late May or early June.
Okay. But remember when I was at that meeting, people said that they blocked Roosevelt Boulevard when, I believe, Wilson Goode was mayor, when they started to pay attention to Logan on the other side of the Boulevard?
So there were people back then that knew that there was some problems in that area.
No. For me, it was I didn't believe it at first because, like, I had gotten home equity loans and so forth, and they never denied me any kind of loan or any kind of insurance or anything. And they told me, oh, no, that's on the other side of Logan, you're fine there. So I just assumed, okay, they did the 23 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 study over there, it doesn't affect us. That's where we (indiscernible). I trusted the City, and this is what I get for trusting them.
Well, what about the bank appraisers, for example? If you just bought it seven years ago, someone had to come out and appraise the problem. Didn't anyone identify to you at that time that there was a problem?
Okay. 'Cause we just can't say just the City; I mean, there's a whole lot of entities going on here, okay.
Yeah, like century 21, the appraiser, all of that. I got papers for all of that. (Some lights go out in chambers.)
Okay, we don't know what's going on here with the lights.
So after that initial letter from L&I, has there ever been any other correspondence, any other contact with the 24 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Administration and L&I and anybody else, the Streets Department, the Water Department, anybody?
I have had so many contacts with the Water Department, with Licenses and Inspections, with Risk Management, with John Christmas, Sam Nicholson. It's unbelievable all of people that I have told. I do have a log of everything that transpired on our particular block on Reed Street. And we have a humongous sink hole, what they call the famous "dip." And Mr. Nieves will talk to you more about that. But we have letters. We actually sent letters, petitions with all the signatures from the people on Reed Street to Mayor Rendell, to John Street, to Commissioner Roy, to the Water Department, to Mr. Milanko (ph.).
The only response that we've ever gotten was one from Mr. Milanko, and we have a copy of that letter for youse today.
What did Mr. Milanko 25 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 say.
It was basically on the problem that they discovered with the -- when the Army Corps of Engineers actually came to look at the main sewer system, they found a large hole in the main sewer system, okay. They had no idea how long that hole's been there, but water has been filtering through that particular hole from everybody's property, you know, 'cause we have a combined sewer system, okay? So everything goes through there. And we had questioned him on what they were doing and so forth, and he responded back, telling us that there was really no problem with it.
No. They just relined the hole not too long ago; I believe it was the beginning of April. They did a private contractor, came out and relined the hole in the main sewer system. But that doesn't take into consideration the effects that it has had on our homes during all this time. 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175
They don't know how long the water had been seeping through.
More or less the problem Joan Krajewski had in terms of water down in that area. Is there other people that are going to testify?
Just bring a chair up and. . . (Witness comes forward.)
Good afternoon. My name is Angel Nieves. I live in the 4500 block of Reese Street.
I going to ask now Councilman-at-large Angel Ortiz to be my interpreter. 27 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175
We do everything here. (Councilman Ortiz's interpretation of Angel Nieves' testimony.) I live at the 4500 block of Reese. And I believe that that's one of the most affected blocks in the area. A lot of people have visited us, such as Donna Reed Miller, she has been to my house, and she became almost dizzy because of the floor. Councilman Ortiz has visited me, Mr. Juan Ramos, and a lot of persons from the City. Everyone has been affected and felt the pain because of the condition. But we still have not received an answer as to the solution. People who have visited Italy have seen the leaning tower of Pisa, and it's still leaning, just like the 4500 block of Reese is still leaning. The sidewalk and the road is sinking. We had a problem also when the building in front of the restaurant was demolished. That was a huge building. When they began the demolition, all of 28 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 our houses were shaken. Almost each one of the houses has deep gashes and openings on its walls. And with the demolition of this building, they open even further. I believe that everyone who has visited that neighborhood has seen the problems that we have. We have contacted the press, we have given the press information, TV, all of the media. But we have still not received any answers from the City. You have seen the pictures that we have brought and that is the current condition of our homes. When I bought my house it wasn't like that. It was a painted lady, right? Or a nicely painted, nicely done house. But after a few years, the house began to lean and sink. That's what I have to say about the neighborhood in which we live. Thank you.
Anyone else, Mildred? (Witness comes forward.) (Councilman Ortiz's interpretation of Francisco Rodriguez's testimony.) My name is Francisco Rodriguez. My 29 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 house is 4008 Courtland. I had to abandon the house. I had to abandon the house because the walls -- three inches separating the walls and so on. And an inspector came and told me I could not live there because the house is sinking.
A month ago. (Councilman Ortiz's continued interpretation of Francisco Rodriguez's testimony.) The problem is that all of the homes are sinking. The road is sinking and the inspector said that people are going to have to move. I had to leave the house and go live with my daughter because you can't live at that house any longer.
I asked him if he's the owner of the house; he is. I asked him how long he's been living in the house; he says five years. Do you have a mortgage? He does have a mortgage, yes. He bought it from a real estate. Do you know who the real estate is? 30 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 (Councilman Ortiz's continued interpretation of Francisco Rodriguez's testimony.) I bought it and then I mortgaged it so I could fix it up.
I asked him, was it sinking when he bought it? And he says no. No, it was not abandoned.
Thank you. (Witness comes forward.) (Councilman Ortiz's interpretation of Gloria Melendez's testimony.) Good afternoon. My name is Gloria Melendez. I come from Orleans Street. The houses in Courtland all have cracks in them, inside and out. I live with a handicapped child, my child. And if I put his chair on one side of the room, the chair slides down by itself. The back wall is separated from the other wall by at least two inches. The water comes through the kitchen. And there are very many single women who live with children that live with these 31 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 circumstances on that street. And I would hope that we can get some help, because the situation is very, very bad. Thank you.
How long have you lived there? She said years. She bought it 12 7 years ago, it was okay, and it just started 8 deteriorating and breaking up and she fixed it, 9 but it still has not had any impact on it. But 10 she has been living there 12 years. 11 Anyone, else Mildred? 12 (Witness comes forward.) (Councilman Ortiz's interpretation of Maria Cruz's testimony.) My name is Maria Cruz. I live on the 400 block of Courtland Street. My house was pretty and nice when I bought it, but now we got all of these problems. And I have problems with the walls that are cracking. Anything with wheels just rolls down to the other side of the house. It's like walking downhill when you walk into the dining room and so on. I've been living there 11 years. And I bought it with the dream that I would live there 32 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 until God willed it to, but now I look around and I'm being left without a house. I keep on putting in money and money. I just put in a new heating system. I fix something and then something else breaks and walls crack. And she's sad because her daughter -- and she looks at her room and she has her room 10 very nicely and then she looks at it and the walls are cracking and she says "Mommy," and I just feel her pain. And I just wish that everything would be fixed and we had a solution. That's it. Thank you.
Good afternoon my name is Louise Gonzales, and I live at 4454 North Fifth Street. I've been living there for 17 years. As I made my rounds talking to my neighbors about the sinking homes, our neighbors all said there's nothing wrong with their properties. As far as I know, my property, there's nothing wrong. But there is something going on under the ground in front of the houses because I've 33 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 noticed that most of the concrete blocks, some of them have cracked, and there's like deep holes under there. So that means there's something moving the ground under there. And most of my neighbors are elderly people and a lot of them are scared to losing their homes, being pushed out of their homes. So -- but -- and I'm asking the City to help us face these problems, 'cause these problems have been happening all over the City since 1931, and they just bring it out in the open for a while and then they just brush them under the rug and nothing is said until another mishap happens or somebody else's house collapses or somebody gets killed. Okay, that's all I have to say. Thank you.
My name is (indiscernible) Ruiz, and I live on the 400 block of (indiscernible) Street. 34 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Now, I only got two questions and the first question -- I wish Mayor Street could be here so he could hear me. I would like to know, including yourself, what he would do if he was living in our position right now, what would he do? (Unintelligible.) The other thing is (unintelligible). It's a lot of conversations, they went through with the same problems that we're facing right now and they get help away. Why us living in the dark for almost two years now? That's all I got to say.
Well, you're no 15 longer in the dark. We're here. So the problem is getting some light. (Witness comes forward.)
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for having us here my name is Anna Vasquez. I live in the 400 block of Raymond Street. My neighbors are saying, Tell'em what's wrong with my house, tell 'em what's wrong with my house. Let me start with my house. I have cracks that begin from the basement, go all the way up to 35 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 the second floor. I've fixed cracks about five times. What's going on? Didn't this guy that I just had do this didn't do it right? Get somebody else. I'm not doing it anymore, I'm fed up. Let the damn house fall apart. I sit in my living room, I can smell the dry plaster just falling between the walls. If I sit on my porch, I see all of the cracks. And I see my neighbors, and we're all complaining about the same thing. I get up in the morning, and the thought that I have in my mind is, This house is falling in on my, what am I going to do? I raised my kids and thought by now, you know, along with my gray hairs, I would enjoy my little house. Well, guess what? The gray hairs are here, but the house is falling in on me. Where am I going to go, what am I going to do? That's the question. Where am I going to go and what am I going to do? I have no money. I'm a single parent and raised my kids all by myself. Worked my but the off and putting every penny I got into the house. And, see, it's going nowhere. 36 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Then I go down the street and my neighbor has the same problem. And then I say, but I've been here years, 25 years. ) I paid my mortgage, I want a 6 mortgage party, and I'll burn that mortgage 7 papers. I paid the mortgage, I raised my kids, 8 and I'm going to be homeless. That's what I have 9 to look forward to: homelessness, homelessness. 10 Because it doesn't end here; we have to keep on 11 going. 12 And guess what, folks? By the time you 13 keep on going, I'll be fighting for their lives, 14 I'll be fighting City Hall because they tore down 15 the house and I won't have any money to pay for 16 the tearing down, 'cause I don't have the money, I 17 don't have a penny to my name. I don't know what 18 to do. 19 To top it off, I have a sinking hole, a 20 sinking hole. And I said, Well, let me call the 21 Department of Streets. Okay, folks, we have a 22 sinking hole. You gotta see my pipes. And the 23 lady says, Call the Water Department, and I said 24 no, no, no, no, no. The pipes aren't leaking; I 25 just have a hole, it's hollow. She said they'll 37 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 send the Water Department. I don't need the Water Department. All right, do what you want, but we have a sinking hole. A kid fits through that sinking hole. It's a hole, it's hollow. But you want to send the Water Department? Fine. The Water Department comes out. It's not leaking, there's no water coming from anywhere. Oh, but they told me, you know, you're responsible. I said I'm not responsible for that. I'm responsible for the whole damn house that's caving in on me, okay? I'm sorry if I'm cursing; I'm just very, very angry, very angry. I got this in the mail. The hole keeps on getting bigger, okay? Now, what's holding that street up is the asphalt. You look in there and it's hollow. Whatever is going through is wiping it off. Today it's my house; tomorrow it's going to be my neighbor's. In my house, in my neighbor's house, their stairwell is separating from the wall, separating from the floor. Look at my wall; it's separating from the walls. The floor. My cat -- the poor cat was playing with a ball and lost the ball. It went to look for the 38 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 it and it went through the crack. Still can't find the ball, the cat. My cat is suffering too, folks. I take my cat and I kiss the cat and I say, Honey, your mama's going to be homeless, we're going to be homeless. My neighbors, they talk to me -- look, look what's happening to me. What can I tell them? Look, we got to get together and we got to fight.
We got to get together and we got to fight. Well, we're here and we're pleading with you. We need your help. I don't know what I am going to do. I'm not saying to you I'm going to fix my house because I don't think it's fixable. I've been trying to fix it; I can't get nowhere, so I can't expect you to go fix my house. I've lived there over years. It's 18 not neglect; I kept up with my house. What's 19 happening to my house is out of my hands. 20 I'm angry, I'm angry, I'm angry with 21 the world. I'm angry. Everywhere I turn, I see a 22 crashing. I go to sleep and I have nightmares. I 23 get up in the morning and everything that I see is 24 -- my house is falling apart. My house, the only 25 thing that I had to count. But do you know on the 39 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 sacrifices that I made for that little house and to find myself now practically homeless. Please bear with me. I'm desperate -- just like they all are, just like every single one of these people here are. We're desperate, we don't know what to do. So we implore you, we implore you. Have mercy on us, have mercy on me and have mercy on my neighbors. We need your help. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Mildred, anybody else? (Witness comes forward.)
How you doing. My name is Marvin Walker, and I live in the Feltonville community. I'm in the 400 block of Asbury Street. And I would just like to say that when I purchased my home, I bought it lock, stock and barrel. When I had inspectors to check it out, they passed it. When I went to get homeowner's insurance, I got it. 40 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175
That was in '93. I've been on Asbury Street eight years. What I don't understand is this, that the City can collect our taxes, whether it's for the real estate, whether it's for us working, for us building that community. The City can sit there and we try to contact 'em. I personally tried to contact 'em. I got a cell phone number for one of the senators, I got a fax machine number for the Mayor. I don't think that was appropriate because we were trying to get -- as a community, to get all of these people involved to help us. If I went out there and busted up the pavement, the City would come after me. But now that we need help from the City, we cannot even get a word. So we, the people of Feltonville, we're asking that you help us as a community. We've been out on marches, we've been out on meetings, and nothing ever arrives. Some people didn't think -- some officials didn't they even had to be at the meetings; they were too good to be at the 41 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 meetings. Now here today, we have this meeting, and before I left home, I'm getting calls from people I called a month ago here in City Hall who I faxed letters to, who I wrote to. Now all of a sudden, they want to know, do I want to call they office. Why? I'm here today. I'm here today to be heard for the Feltonville Committee. What is City Hall going to do? What is the City going to do to help us. That's all I want to know.
You're going to be heard, you are being heard. Stay there, sir, you don't have to get up. This is your hearing. (Witness comes forward.)
My name is Irma Rodriguez. About ten years ago, I bought my home. When I saw it, I said it was a challenge because it had wallpaper top to bottom. I removed the wallpaper -- cracks. I'm going, What is this? I didn't know anything. So I started covering up the cracks. Then I saw a 42 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 (indiscernible) and I said, okay, I'll fix that too. I fixed my home with all new ceilings, the walls are new. Everything started to crack: ceilings, walls.
Yep. AND then i took out a loan to put in new windows, I did that. And then my steps started to detach from the wall. I couldn't take that anymore. About last year, the chimney turned, bulged out. I went to my doctor and I says, I can't take this anymore. I started crying. I said I can fix the inside if I have to, but the outside? My window from the bedroom is sinking inward. There are damages that cannot be fixed. I can fix the inside but the kitchen and the shed keeps on detaching the floor. That used to be fixed every year. Now it's every three months that I have to put wood putty, sand it down to keep the shed from detaching from my kitchen. And that's a lot of damages 'cause I fixed the bathroom two years ago, and it's all cracked. All of my walls are cracked. For nothing. Because I did it by myself. I did the plastering, I did the 43 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 painting, I did the everything. My son did some painting. But you know what it is? I'm disabled, I'm in pain, and I can't do it anymore. I can't keep on fixing cracks anymore. That's about all I have to say. And my name Irma Rodriguez and I live on Raymond Street.
None of you have neglected your homes. They are in the conditions they are not because of your making. It is obvious. Hopefully, this will be the beginning of the answers. Because we cannot permit hard-working people to go homeless. We cannot permanent people who've -- who lived the American dream as such, for that dream to be deferred and then be destroyed later on because of not their negligence of their own, but the negligence of government not taking care of certain thing is. (Witness comes forward.)
Hello. My name is Lisa Burgos, and I live near Asbury, I live on the 400 block of St. Paul's Street, which is just a few 44 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 streets away. And what I'm experiencing is, in my basement, the floor is buckling up. I brought pictures to show that. Also around the edges of my wall, it's always damp and moist, and I don't have any leak in my house from my water pipes. In my son's back room, in the back room, in my son's room, there's a crack like about two inches deep on the left-side wall, near the window. And inside his closet, he also has a crack in there. The front of my house, 'cause there's a vacant house next door and the bricks are coming out, and now it's affecting my house, which all the bricks on my block, the houses, some of the bricks are bulging out. And then my front window, you can see the window is going in, it's sinking in. And I think this is going to cause the whole neighborhood, I think, from Bristol to Wyoming because of the same problem. I mean, if there's a water bed underneath our floor, our street, they need to fix it. I mean, even if you walk on the sidewalk, you can hear an echo. There 45 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 has to be something wrong. I mean, we have trees on our block. They used to say, Oh, it's the roots of the trees. Well, if it's the roots of the trees, why don't they come and tear them down. No, that's your problem. How is it our problem? We didn't put the trees there; the City put them there many years ago, so they should pay for it to tear it down or fix our streets. I mean, we have a problem here and we need to get it fixed. I see them redeveloping in all of these other communities. They need to do it in our community too. And that's all I have to say. Thank you very much.
Hi. My name is Judy Rodriguez, and my block is on the 600 block of West (indiscernible) Street. It might seem like all of us are coming here, we're complaining, and I've been told by (indiscernible) that it's neglect, but it's really not neglect. About two months ago, I had $1700 worth 46 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 of damages due to the shifting of the pipes. My main line was completely clogged -- well, that's what I thought. When the plumbers came out, they told me that the plumbing was shifting; therefore, it broke. Everything was all over my basement. When I first moved in, I thought the house would look real nice. It had paneling; therefore, I thought, you know, it was really nice but it's time to take the paneling down. When I finally took the paneling down on my dining room 12 wall, there's about a four-inch gap. I brought someone out. I paid out of my pocket to bring someone out to tell me whether or not the wall was going to fall down. He told me no. Finally, I had to get someone else to come out, and they said, yes, be very careful 'cause it can come down. My house is Band-Aided together, if I can use that word. My kitchen floor I can stand but I can't have more than two people in my kitchen. I can bounce on my floor and it actually bounces with me. My kids' room is falling apart no matter how much (indiscernible) I put on it. It's ruined, my house is totally ruined. 47 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 I mean, I'm a single mother, I have two kids, and there's only so much I can do. I recently had to abandon my house. I have a mortgage. My mom's paying me for her house 'cause I had to take her with me. I have a two-bedroom apartment with five people living there, plus I have to pay rent for that and that doesn't make any sense when I have a home of my own.
Yes. It doesn't make any sense. I mean, I've tried, I've really tried.
Let's continue. I mean, I hear this. Mildred, I'm going to call some other 48 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 witnesses. So if residents can -- 'cause we have -- I want to get this hearing 'cause we want to get to the point in which we begin talking as to where we're going to go.
I would like to say too though to the residents, everyone here has made a point that they're not neglecting their properties. The houses that I visited, I saw no 10 neglect. I mean, when I went to homes, they were well-kept homes, well-maintained homes. And I just want to say that for the record 'cause I think that's important that I saw no visible signs of neglect. I'm not an engineer, certainly, nor a housing inspector, but I saw no 16 visible signs of neglect. I just want to say that.
Thank you, Mildred. You can all stay here and listen to the rest of the testimony. I know that more people want to, but let's get the other testimony on because I think we've made very clear the residents' position. I think we've made very clear that this is not a problem that is being caused by neglect. 49 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 These are not irresponsible people and irresponsible families. These are hard-working individuals that have invested their life savings in their homes, and they're looking to the City, as they should, for some answers because they didn't create this problem. And we should have -- we should come up with some answers for them. And I believe that this is the first step towards that. So Mildred, so we can call up the other folks and then we can keep going with the Army Corps of Engineers, and then the City Administration is going to come down, okay? We got the problem. We know that all of the houses got cracks that is not of their making. We know that floors are going whichever which way, they're leaning, they're going, it's breaking up. We have the picture. Let us continue on and let's get other testimony on and we'll continue on later, okay?
Just for the record, I'd like to state that at the first meeting, there was a young lady there whose home fell in. You know who I'm talking about? Right, 50 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 she lost her home. So in addition to the cracks and etc., there are also other problems, there are also people whose homes have basically collapsed right around them. Okay, thank you.
Okay? Thank you. You can just sit back and wait, okay? Reverend Newkirk and Reverend Mary Laney, please. (Witnesses come forward.)
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are delighted to be invited. To all of the Council representatives that are here, we're delighted to be a part of this hearing, and we thank you for inviting us to be a part of this conversation, and I think we have something to add to the conversation. I just wanted to clarify that my name is Reverend Kermit Newkirk and I'm pastor at the Harold O'Davis Memorial Baptist Church at 10th and Roosevelt Boulevard. It's in the heart of the sinking homes areas. But most importantly, I'm a part of the Philadelphia Interfaith Action. We 51 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 are consisting of about 43 institutions across the City. We're faith-based, it's multi-cultural, multi-denominational, and we have been dealing with a lot of the major issues that are impacting on our community. One of the things that did do is, we built 150 homes, affordable houses, new houses at 46th and Market, and we were prepared to do a thousand if Mayor Rendell would have fund additional land. We've done some things with community policing. We are operating at Harold O'Davis Church, but we are also citywide. We've dealt with the issues in Feltonville, Huntington Park, and Logan, so we're just not exclusively in Logan. There was a map on the -- yeah, could you put it back up for just a moment. When I got your invitation, Councilman Ortiz, to come and testify, I was delighted. I was somewhat amused at the terminology that you used. You talked about the arduous that work we have done and yet successful. And it has been arduous and we have some documentation that talks about the arduous task that we've been dealing 52 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 with in terms of the Logan area for about years. I don't know about successful. I doubt if the term "successful" could be utilized in terms of dealing with Logan because one of the problems that is facing Logan and Feltonville and Huntington Park has not been rectified, has not been satisfied, has not been resolved. If you look on the illustration, you will see the area in blue. That area in blue is representative of the Logan sinking homes area. That's close to a thousand homes that are gone. There are still some homes that have not been torn down and there's some residents who have not been satisfied -- maybe 2, 300. But for all intents and purposes, that represents the Logan Triangle. The problem with the whole area -- and not just Logan but Huntington Park and Feltonville -- is the problem is water mixed with cinder and ash, that whole area. And we're so delighted that the Army Corps of Engineers report has verified that across the street, that same cinder and ash still existed. We knew about that in talking with the 53 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Rendell Administration. Almost ten years ago, we were told by the Redevelopment Authority why deal with Logan when you know that Huntington Park and Feltonville have the same problems. And it was brought to our attention almost ten years ago that that Feltonville and Huntington Park had the very same issues that Logan had and also the fact that those issues were not being addressed. Because of the cinder and ash and the water, it's like a cancer that keeps on spreading. Every home that is under cinder and ash, when the water hits that cinder and ash, it destabilizes the home and, therefore, it sinks. When you look at that calendar, we have now estimated that the area in red, all that is surrounded by red, is the area that is represented by cinder and ash. Every house in that area -- that is including Logan, Huntington Park and Feltonville -- are in dire jeopardy of sinking because of that cinder and ash and water problem. I am so delighted to hear some of the testimony that states that the homeowners are not at fault and that it is not a maintenance problem. It is not a maintenance problem; it is a 54 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 water problem.
And no matter what these homeowners do, if the subsidence problem is not resolved, if sewer systems are not fixed, if the laterals and the downspouts are not maintained, there's nothing they can do. In fact, they can do everything right, and if it's two homes down the street that is vacant and the water is coming in, it's going under the house and destabilizing every house. So no homeowner can be responsible for that kind of problem. It has to be resolved around City issues, particularly those issues that deal with the sewer systems. We've discovered in Logan, and we know now in Huntington Park and Feltonville, that the sewer systems are collapsing. If the streets are collapsing, if the houses are collapsing, the sewer systems are also collapsing. What happened in 1986 triggered some initiative in Logan -- not a conclusion, but an initiative. There was a terrible explosion in the 4700 block of North 10th Street. That moved motivated people to start working on the Logan problem -- never resolving it, but still working 55 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 on it. Sorry to say this, and I don't want to be the one to be a gloom-and-doom prophet, but I believe that this problem in Feltonville and Huntington Park is going to be resolved one day, but what's going to happen is there's going to be a devastating explosion, lives are going to be lost because the City will not take this initiative to resolve this problem. And I hate to bring that kind of news to you, but that is the catalyst that brought some attention to Logan. It didn't resolve it because the City did not really -- and even to today has yet to deal with the real problem of cinder and ash and this water. And until they deal with that, this problem will be just like a continual, slow-moving cancer. We estimate that there are now 4 to 5,000 homes in this area of Feltonville, Huntington Park and exclusively in Logan that are involved with this cinder and ash. If the City doesn't do anything, if we don't move on this, if we don't act rather than react, there's going to be an explosion, lives are going to be lost, and the blood is going to be on all of our hands as to 56 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 why this has been taken care. And so I'm going to ask Reverend Mary Laney from St. Gabriel's Church, who's a part of Philadelphia Interfaith to go forth next.
These people are hard-working people. Their only crime is to move in the sinking homes area. And one of the things that I forgot to bring to the forefront, this is not a new problem. I remember under the Green Administration when they came into Logan and told us -- he put together a blue-ribbon panel that discussed with the residents, and I was a part of that ad hoc committee, the sinking homes area in terms of the sinking in Logan. There was supposed to be, under the Green Administration, a moratorium on homes that would be sold because that was supposed to be a part of the informational packet that was given to any homeowner that wold allow them to know that their 57 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 homes were in a sinking area, particularly with the cinder and ash. It never happened. We've been to the Rendell Administration year after year, fighting for them to solve the cancer that is continue to spread, not only in Logan, but Huntington Park, Feltonville. No response. So this has been an ongoing nightmare. These residents are working people. If we're going to try to bring back people to Philadelphia, why not keep the people we have in Philadelphia still here. And that's my issue. (Applause.)
Yes. Councilman Ortiz, Councilwoman Miller and Councilman Rizzo, thank you. Pastor Newkirk has given a comprehensive and very impassioned, articulate history of sinking homes in Logan, Feltonville, and Hunting Park. I think clearly this is not a Logan issue; this is a many-community issue. For years, years, PIA has been involved 58 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 in the call for justice for the people of these neighborhoods, and we believe the time to deal with this issue is long overdue. PIA proposes we not do what was done in the Logan Triangle; that we do do what was done in Wissinoming. To repeat the Logan Triangle strategy is to sign a death warrant on the 4,000 more families in Feltonville,, Hunting Park and Logan. The Logan Triangle strategy was built on inadequate funding, voluntary relocation, total demolition, and bureaucracy. It has been a 15-year nightmare, with some families still trapped in the hell-hole of Logan. The strategy resulted resulted in encouraging denial, blaming, and destructive neighborhood factions. It resulted in producing a wasteland of cancer that has now spread to the surrounding areas, just as we predicted. It resulted in demolishing homes, whether they were sinking or not. It resulted in an inefficient and costly bureaucracy of endless delay, incompetency, and favoritism. It resulted in a famework of closing our eyes and pretending that minimal financial life-support would somehow bring the 59 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 same results as major surgery. The lesson is: Don't do it like they did in Logan. The Wissinoming strategy, on the other hand, was swift, success, and hope. Homes were inspected immediately, and imminently dangerous buildings were condemned. Relocation was mandatory. Residents were compensated and relocated expeditiously. It took three weeks, not fifteen years. The lesson is: Do it like they did it in Wissinoming. (Applause.)
Philadelphia Interfaith Action proposes regarding the Logan Triangle, the blue part up there, that we compensate and relocate all remaining families immediately, regardless of lacked criteria. There are about five families left living in that area still to this day. Make that 50-acre Logan site buildable. PIA proposes that the Logan Triangle be rebuilt with a mix of commercial, residential, and educational development to serve as an anchor. It 60 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 will ressurect the entire community. To make it buildable the City must: one, complete demolition; two, rebuild the infrastructure, including all the sewers and streets that are collapsing and leaking; three, remediate the soil. The US Army Corps of Engineers has estimated this to cost $48 million. It's a lot of money. However, most of this work must be done in order to stop the spread of the subsidence into the areas, regardless of what is built. It has to be done. This is why you're having this in Feltonville and Hunting Park and so forth. Regarding the surrounding arrests of Feltonville, Hunting Park and Logan, first some background. A few years ago, PIA began to hear countless stories from homeowners who were recognizing the early signs of sinking: doors not shutting, windows jamming, cracks becoming visible, just as we heard here today -- even worse today. As we know, the boundaries of the original Logan Triangle were quite arbitrary. And the City has known for years that the cinder and ash did not magically stop at the Boulevard or at 61 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 North 11th Street. So in the fall of 1999, PIA met with Senator Specter and Santorum and Congressman Brady and requested that a US Army Corps of Engineers study be done on the entire surrounding area, including parts of Feltonville, Hunting Park, and Logan. As we said before, there are approximately 4,000 homes potentially in danger of sinking. In the fall of 2000, the US Corps of Army Engineers released its study of approximately 500 homes in the Feltonville area. That would be the lower part across the Boulevard from that blue triangle part. And when that study came through, our worst fears were confirmed. Some homes are built on 50 feet of cinder and ash. PIA has continued to insist that the entire area within that red line around be studied so that we know once and for all the true extent of the problem. Our understanding from senators Specter and Santorum is that they have secured funding for this study. However, it is unclear what the current status is. Therefore, PIA recommends the following regarding the area of Feltonville that has been studied: 62 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 1. The City must immediately stabilize the area to stop the continued subsidence and deterioration and save as many homes as possible. This is the recommendation of the US Army Corps of Engineers. At a minimum, it includes the repair of all sewer lines, laterals, water mains, and streets. And to delay is to lose more homeowners, more voters, more taxpayers. 2. In the case that homes are too far gone for stabilization, then the families should be compensated and relocated immediately. (Applause.)
There is no need for a lack type bureaucracy. Do it quick and fast, as was done in Wissinoming. 3. No family should be put in a shelter, which is what the City has offered to date and what PIA has successfully stopped. 4. No homeowner should be charged for demolition of a house that they can no longer live in primarily due to the City's neglect. Now, regarding the broader area that has not been studied yet: 1. The study should get the US Army 63 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Corps of Engineers to complete a study of the entire area. This should include the area PIA has outlined, but it also may need to include even more area to the east of Third Street based on the previous study which shows cinder and ash, elevations moving in that direction. It might be bigger than what we think. 2. Once the study is completed, a stabilization strategy should be developed to save homes that can saved, to demolish homes that are beyond repair. And, again, in the case of imminently dangerous homes, families should be compensated and relocated. This proposal would save 4,000 families from the pain and suffering we have witnessed in the Logan Triangle, the 1,000 families there. And it would create those 55 acres for development in the most prime location in Philadelphia. Finally, PIA believes that the injustice of Logan, Feltonville, and Hunting Park shows us how important it is for Council to move forward immediately on the Mayor's proposed Neighborhood Transformation Initiative. The window of opportunity to turn Philadelphia around 64 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 is closing. This is truly, truly our best last hope to keep the lights burning. Thank you. (Applause.) UNIDENTIFIABLE WITNESS: Hello. My name is Hubert (indiscernible), and I live at 603 West (indiscernible) in the Feltonville section of Philadelphia. I purchased my home in 1988 from HUD for $6,500. Since then, I have fewer cracks in the wall. I built new walls, putting in a new roof twice and a new drainage system. My porch is coming apart. The porch wall is pulling away from the cement floor. The total cost of these repairs have been more than $30,000. I should not have to keep up putting money in this house. I always dreamed about owning my own home. My wife and I have worked at keeping up with the repairs, but we could never have prepared for this. Our house is sinking. And we are not alone. Three houses on my block have been declared imminently dangerous. Twenty-five hundred homeowners are suffering along with us. My neighbors and I are desperate and afraid that 65 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 the house will collapse on us. How much longer we are going to have to put our families to this? Council representative, I am here today to ask you what should I do and what wil all of the other people like me do? I have invested more than $30,000 in this house. How much will I have to put in all? I want is to live in a safe place for me and my family. And thank you for all of the help that you can give me for this. Thank you. (Applause.)
Ladies and gentlemans [sic] of this Council, my name is Jose Hernandez. I live in this area for 54 years. That makes me a senior citizen. Now, throughout the years -- and I'm talking 30 years back -- I have seen this community going down into the sand that I can testify to you this afternoon that they are going, that we need a new community. I respect the Mayor's view on blight, but I also say to you, 260,000 people leave Philadelphia in the last 10 years. It looks like the suburbs is becoming the 66 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 City, and Feltonville Huntington Park, and Logan is becoming a ghost town. Now, during my 54 years of living in the area, I raise my families. My father raised me and he's gone. I am there and I'm raising my family. So is everybody who is here. The only thing to do is act now before it's too late. Now, 260,000 people that leave Philadelphia, they didn't leave for nothing. They sick of the situation. This situation is not only (indiscernible) any good, it is ugly. It's on acceptable to anybody, to any citizen that have worked all of their life, put everything they had, thinking the American dream was there for them. The American dream for the people of Feltonville and Huntington Park and Logan, it is gone. And that's all I have to say. Thank you.
Yes, thank you. I'm so pleased to see the members of the clergy here today because I believe that you 67 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 are providing significant support to the community. And that leads me to a question. We're talking about cracks in walls and we're talking about bricks and all of these mechanical problems to these properties. But I'm wondering what we're doing to help with trauma that must be associated with the people here today, you can see it in their faces, how they must be dealing with it. And I'm wondering, maybe we should be doing something to help the people that are -- and you must both deal with people that are obviously upset and concerned about their futures of their lives and their children. Do you have any recommendations beyond what the clergy is doing, what possibly government could do to be of assistance in counseling or something? Because I just can't imagine having to live in a situation like this with the uncertainty associated with it. And I turned to Councilman Ortiz a bit ago, and I was fortunate in my life to have visited Italy. And somewhat earlier, I don't know whether you heard it talked about the leaning Tower of Pisa. And I assume that there had to be 68 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 a council meeting and government involved because it worked, obviously, for government. The cables and all of the guide wires holding that tower in place would have fallen over a long time ago. So we need to quickly deal with the mechanical issues that we're discussing today. But I think most important to me is also the trauma and the people involved with this issue.
My sense would be that the most pastoral and beneficial thing would be for the City, the State, and the federal government to do in Logan, Feltonville, and Hunting Park what they did in Wissinoming. If people would see that there was hope, that's what they need, they need hope. At this point, people have no hope because they look across the Boulevard or down towards the Boulevard and see the devastation and the wasteland, and they say, That's what we're going to be. And PIA has fought, you know, for eight years, ten years, trying to get this issue up front on the Administration's docket, and we need leadership from all levels of government to come 69 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 and do it. It's not going get -- the price tag is not going down at any time; it's just going to get worse. So let's bite bullet and let's do it.
And this hearing today is hopefully the catalyst, and all of us together will certainly, you know, try to make that happen. But, again, I asked you the question about the people. Other than let's get something done and that will cure the issue --
But, Councilman, I understand your question, and you're dealing with the spiritual issues that are impacting people's lives concerning going through this blight and this devastation. The only relief that these people can -- these people not only are living in fear, they're living in danger. They go to bed at night not knowing if they'll wake up in the morning or if their homes are not collapsing on the. No 22 matter what I say as a pastor, we've got to eliminate this danger issue so that there won't be any tension within the family, because no matter what we say, things are going to get better, the 70 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 City's going to come in and do -- the issue is, these people are living in an imminently dangerous situation, and in order to give them hope, we need to come to the City and we need to come to our representatives and ask them to intervene in this area. Because no matter how much counseling I give a person -- and some of these people in this room that are members of my church -- the bottom line is, Pastor, if you were in my position, what would you do? And my situation would be, I would come down to City Council and I would fight the Mayor, fight City Council, fight the Governor, and everyone else to do something about a problem that is beyond my individual ability to solve. And that is, I need to protect my child, to protect my children. So that's why I continually state that to ignore this problem and to ignore the enormity of this problem for this many years has put this community in such a terrible state that they have almost lost all hope. Because the only thing that we have in our inner-city community that we can be assured of is our home. It is our most valuable 71 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 commodity. And right now, these people's homes are worth absolutely zero. They can't even leave a legacy to their children, because we're living in such a state of dismay. And the only help that can come about is from our City representatives -- and I'm not just putting it on Council. I'm putting it on the Mayor -- I'm not even just putting it on the Mayor, I'm talking about our state and federal officials. We want to know, where is our governor, where is our governor, where is the State in this? I thought that Pennsylvania was a Commonwealth and I thought Philadelphia was a part of the Commonwealth and I thought people who lived in Logan and Feltonville and Huntington Park were a part of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Where is federal help, where is State help, where is City help? That's where the hope is.
You know, in my opening remarks, I said that this resolve would 72 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 have to be a partnership between the City, the State, and the federal government. And that is the way that I see it happening. But I think the City of Philadelphia should take the lead.
Absolutely. And that's one of the reasons I understand the partnership hasn't happened is that the City of Philadelphia has not been willing to talk with state and federal people.
Councilwoman, we have had conversations -- I mean extensive conversations -- with our senators, we've had extensive conversations with our Congressperson, and we've even had extensive conversations with the representatives of the Governor in terms of dealing with this issue. What has always come back to us -- and this is the absolute truth -- is that the leadership has to come from the City. And, therefore, they are tied because they can't go any farther than the leadership of the City. And whether it be Rendell or whether it 73 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 be Mr. Street or Council, something from the City has to push this.
All right, okay. So just to keep the information straight, you're talking primarily Logan?
Or you're talking Logan, Feltonville, and Huntington Park?
And that red area is representative of Feltonville, Huntington Park, Logan. And I would even suspect -- and I'm not going to spread rumors, but there's got to be areas in Olney that are suffering some of this same issue.
Well, there are people -- there have been some of my constituents on the other side of Broad Street down there, Bellfield Avenue and whatnot have also made 74 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 statements regarding sinking problems and --
That's why we've always pushed for a comprehensive study to see -- we know that cinder and ash was put in this area. No one has come up with a definitive study that gives us the scope of where this is, because one of the things is, if you deny it, you won't have to deal with it. So I'm always asking, why can't we get a comprehensive study to just see where this cinder and ash is? We can't even attack of the issue if we don't know the depth of the issue. And we have -- for years, we have 14 been pushing this, and it is only recently that 15 the Army Corps has come in and done a very limited study. Why?
I don't why, I have no idea why. I can't answer that, but we will have people here that are going to testify later that perhaps does have answers. I just want to ask one. How many homes in Wissinoming was affected?
61, okay. They -- 61 people were located? 75 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175
Yeah, relocated compensated, and also they were put up in Korman Suites.
And, you know, the whole thing is, we kept getting thrown back at us all the time, Well, Logan's so much bigger, or Hunting Park and Feltonville is so much bigger. Well, you know, if they had even dealt with Logan at the same rate of, you know, relocation that they did in Wissinoming, Logan would have been resolved in three years. So it's years and 13 today there are 5 families in that triangle. 14
But I've heard figures up as high as 35 million, 40 million.
And your recommendation is -- did you say 48 million?
That's the Army 76 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Corps's estimate of what it will take to make the Logan Triangle buildable.
I think also maybe you're not all aware, most of you are, that there's another situation brewing right now out in the 4th Councilmatic District Daggett Street, there's a half a dozen people right now that have been relocated because of the immediate danger that the engineers have identified out there. I think what we really need to do -- at least me as a member of Council, I think I really need to know the big picture on exactly how many situations like this exist throughout the City. You know, we know about Logan, we know about Wissinoming, we know -- but not everyone's aware that we have another situation at this minute that is brewing that could even spread and could be even more potential for people to be displaced from their homes. So I agree with you totally that something needs to be done and be done quickly. And, again, we need to know where else we have potential problems, because I would assume, and 77 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 maybe I shouldn't, that the Army Corps of Engineers or the Department of Licenses and Inspections have a pretty good idea of where problems could be brewing, where for years of record-keeping or just plain knowledge of where this Daggett Street issue was apparently a quarry at one time that was filled possibly with trash and other debris that's decayed and has caused this condition to surface just in the last few years. So --
Well, we have the newspaper clippings of the car loads of ash that the City took up and dumped right in there.
Thank you very much for coming. The homelessness. And the solution is not to tear down; the solution is to build. And the solution is not to put people in homeless shelters and make 'em lose their life savings in one way or the other. Beverly Duke and John Thomas from. . . (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon, Chairman Ortiz and members of the Public Safety Committee.
We want to prevent happening in Feltonville what happened in Logan in the sense of just tearing down and removing a neighborhood. Hopefully, your experience can be of help along those lines.
Okay. We me today I have Nayeem (ph.) Sultan, who is the Deputy Director of Logan Assistance Corporation, and Eileen Burke, who's our Relocation Supervisor. In terms of preventing the tearing down of the neighborhood, I'm not certain that I can give you insight on that in the sense that it was determined and based on a 1986 engineering study that there were approximately 1,000 properties that were built --
I'm sorry. My name is John Thomas. I'm the President and Chairman of the Board of the Logan Assistance Corporation. Chairman Ortiz, what I was saying is that the engineers have determined that there were 79 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 approximately 1,000 properties on that area, which is known as "the Logan Triangle," and those properties were built on ash and cinder. So in order to -- it was determined that the only way to deal with that problem was to tear those properties down and relocate the residents. What happened in 1987 -- this problem -- the public -- the City and the elected officials decided to address this problem after years of residents' complaints, similar to what you're hearing in Feltonville, after an explosion that occurred in 1986. There was an explosion on the 4600 block of Tenth Street. And at that time then, the City said, yeah, you do have a problem. And they decided to come together with the community and other elected officials and private agencies, and they established the Logan Assistance Corporation as a vehicle for dealing with the problem in Logan. And what I've been told over the years is that the reason they established the Logan Assistance Corporation is because the community was not totally trusting of the government by itself, because for years, they have been told 80 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 that their properties were not sinking. So they were not willing to accept just the City addressing their problem once they acknowledged that there was a problem. So the Logan Assistance Corporation was established, and it had membership from the community, the public sector, as well as private industry, and they brought in various expertise and experiences to the board. I have prepared testimony, so I'm not going to read that; I'm just going to summarize some things. What we -- the Logan Assistance Corporation, like I said, was established in 1987. It was determined that anyone who lived in that area prior to February 1986 could be relocated and they were eligible for relocation, and anyone who had moved into the area after that, they were not eligible for relocation. And in spite of efforts to discourage people from moving into that area subsequent to that time, people did move into that area, and those people are not eligible per our contract with OHCD and HUD. So over the years, a number of those families moved into that community, and they 81 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 experienced some of the same problems you heard from the people who spoke earlier. Some of the people said that they were not made aware that the area was sinking. So some of the same problems that you're hearing from Feltonville were experienced in Logan also. Currently in the Logan area, there are eligible families in that triangle area. There are two families remaining who are eligible. There are five families in that area who are ineligible; they moved in after February 1986. In addition, there are approximately 180 to 200 families who were eligible, per the 1986 date. They had to move from their Logan properties because of -- it became too dangerous for them to continue living in their Logan property. So they were eligible for assistance, they are still eligible for assistance, but they've never been compensated. So although most of the properties are down in Logan, a lot of people have never been compensated, so they're dealing with --
But it is the same problem that happened in Logan. You have the same complaints. I was around, Councilman Cohen was 82 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 around. Families kept on complaining around the same time around the same issues: the cracks in the wall, the leaning floors, the sinking floors, the bathroom, the expenses that they kept on making. The issue is that at that point in time, the solution was to remove the people and tear down all of those houses, and that's why you see that empty area now as you drive down Roosevelt Boulevard. We want to -- we want to see whether that can be prevented from happening in Feltonville. We want to see whether the fear that these families live with at this time can be assuaged in a way and a plan put into place in which houses can be fixed, rebuilt, the ground underneath, the infrastructure. We can't keep on removing people, because I don't know how many of those individuals that were removed from Logan still reside within the neighborhood or were relocated within the neighborhood or where or still even in Philadelphia. So the issue is very much the same in a sense. It's just that the activity that happened 83 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 in Logan afterwards has not occurred yet: the removal of the families, the telling them that they can't live in their homes any longer because it is imminently dangerous and they have to move. The removal of them from their neighborhood has not occurred at this point. And we spent -- how much money has been spent on the Logan area right now since 1987?
Over $33 million. I mean, you know, if we have to make it an expenditure of $33 million, let's see if we can do it now beforehand. And I don't know -- the issue is, I want to be able to look at Logan and say we're not going to repeat an experience of just removing people.
Chairman Ortiz, one of the things I would suggest to you is that what needs to occur very quickly is that there needs to be an identification of the problem, the magnitude of the problem. We need to have, as Reverend Newkirk has said earlier, there needs to be a comprehensive study where you really identify where the problem is. 84 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Once you identify which properties are built on areas that may have ash or cinder where the rock is only maybe 40 feet down, maybe those properties have to be torn down because those properties are never going to be stable at a reasonable cost. So some properties may have to be torn down. Then there are other properties that don't have to be torn down. Once you identify that, then you can develop a program designed to maintain and stabilize that community. This was not done in Logan as quickly as it should have been done, nor were the financial resources made available to the Logan Assistance Corporation or through any other source in a timely fashion. So I think you have to identify the problem, you have to make sure that the City agencies and the state agencies are working together with the local community. You talk about L&I, the Streets Department, the Police, and the Water dealing with many problems that arise. As some properties become vacant, you need to deal with the problems that come up as a result of that. And also, one of the problems that 85 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Logan experienced that has been disturbing to me since I've been involved is that in the Logan community, there are a number of groups in Logan, and most of them are not working together. I hope in the Feltonville community that there is some form of task force from the community's perspective where everybody's working from the same page so that people are not going off in different directions wasting time and energy with different plans. I think it should be -- whatever happens, it should be one plan, a comprehensive plan where the community and the elected officials and the private institutions are working together on the same problem. I think that's very important.
I agree. I don't believe that there should be a tangential situation. We have a problem. It is a problem that is circumscribed within this community right now, but I think it goes, as people have said, all the way up to Wyoming. And the young lady who testified before, she's not within that neighborhood, but she lives right -- a block or a 86 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 couple of blocks away, and her basement is experiencing the same sort of situation. And what we're looking at, what I'm looking at is how do we begin to begin the work that will make these -- this neighborhood not an empty wasteland, that we need to come up with a plan. These families have made a huge investment, their investment in their homes. We can't -- we just can't allow them to lose that investment and become homeless and without restitution. And we cannot create another empty lot in North Philadelphia. We cannot just create empty spaces in North Philly and keep on creating empty spaces and then say, Oh, well, we're going to do a garden over there. That's not good enough. We need to keep our people and we need to bring in more people. But the people that we have here that are working-class, that have made this their home, I think we owe something to make sure that they stay here and that if they have a problem, the City comes to their aid.
I agree, Councilman Ortiz. Again, I think first, you got to 87 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 clearly identify the problem. And then those surrounding neighborhoods, you got to have a program that's designed to stabilize and maintain those surrounding neighborhoods. In Logan, we focused primarily for years on the sinking homes area. We have limited resources so we focus our resources on trying to deal with the people who are victims of those sinking homes. At the same time, the surrounding community was deteriorating and people were not investing in their problems because they had questions about how far does question go and is my property eventually going to be torn down and should I throw good money at a property that's going to be torn down. So once you identify how far the extent of the problem in Feltonville is, then you can ensure that community that, okay, your property is safe, then people may be willing to reinvest in their properties. And then you have to look at programs that may be able to assist people in maintaining their problems. So I think you have to look at all of those things to maintain a community. 88 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 But if there are areas where the problem is -- where the ash and cinder problem is bad some have of problems may need to be torn, but I don't think that -- I'm not an engineer so I can't say, but probably not as many properties as was torn down in Logan. But if you deal with the problem quickly, if the finances are federal, the state and the private resources are there to address this problem in a timely manner, you avoid having a big patch of land there.
Yeah, well, I'm just trying to get some kind of a handle on what has to be done and what machinery has to be moved into action. There are a lot of people who want to help but I don't know whether they want to help enough in the right direction. What, Mr. Thomas, would be your suggestion say -- you lived through the days in Logan. What would you be suggesting, say, for Feltonville? What ought we do next?
I think that there has to be a coming together of the community and a task 89 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 force where you're speaking from one voice. I think then you have to work with the local agencies, the City, OHCD, L&I, the Mayor so that you have one plan, one idea, one goal for that community. Then reaching out to the federal agencies, the state agencies, and the private institutions. There may be private dollars that people are not going after that may be available. If everybody's working together in trying to address the problem, you can address it, you can find creative ways that may never have been thought of in the Logan area. But people have to be work and have to be committed to resolving this problem in a timely fashion. But if everyone's going off in their own directions, then you end up with the same problem of things not getting resolved because energies are wasted going in different directions. So I think we would need to come together. And I agree with what -- I think it was what Reverend Laney said or Reverend Newkirk, that many institutions look for the local government to be the lead. I think the federal government, the HUD and all of those agencies look for the lead to 90 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 come from the local level. And the State, they look for the local government to be the lead in this instance.
Well, we're talking now about the blight program. Have we ever given the same attention to the sinking homes as we're giving to the blight program? I could not think of anything that is more appropriate to deal with in the blight program than the sinking homes situation.
I mean, it seems to me that's the worst form of blight. People live in terror that their whole life savings are going to be gone and maybe the safety of their family is compromised. In your judgment, Mr. Thomas, has the City given the same kind of attention to the sinking homes as it's given to the overall blight program, whatever that program might be? 91 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175
Well, Councilman Cohen, we are starting to have discussions with representatives of the Mayor's Office and other agencies within the local government regarding that. Councilwoman Tasco has made clear that she's not going to be supportive of any blight initiative that doesn't address the Logan community. And one of the primary things we are talking about at this time in the Logan area is trying to stabilize the surrounding community. As I said, as we focused on those sinking homes, we neglected that surrounding community. Those people are not eligible for assistance, but they need a little help. And there are vacant properties in that area and we can address those vacant properties and rehab those that can be rehabbed and tear down the ones that can't. Then our communities start to rebuild and people feel like putting money into their properties. So that's what our primary focus is, to rebuild and stabilize the surrounding community at this time.
All right. Thank 92 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 you, Mr. Chairman.
I'm sorry. My name is Nayeem Sultan, the Deputy Director of the Logan Assistance Corporation and a former Logan resident that was involved in the sinking homes. I lived there years. So my heart goes out for the 15 residents of Feltonville and other residents of 16 the City that are experiencing this problem. 17 One of the things that happened up in 18 Logan, in hindsight, things weren't taken care of 19 in a proper fashion, in a quickly fashion. Now I 20 think it is very important that the City sit down 21 along with this task force and begin to do 22 things. People have some immediate dangers in 23 these areas and they need to be addressed right 24 away. Some can be taken on a long-term basis. 25 One thing, we have a lot of HUD houses 93 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 and VA houses around the City that are sitting there vacant and rotting away. Some people can no 4 longer stay in their properties. We need to down with HUD officials, the VA, and whatever we can, to get some immediate needs to some of these people that need -- they can't wait six months or a year for anything formally, they need some help now. So that's one of the things. I think we need to sit down on all levels as leaders of the community and try to bring this about. And I think this is one of the things that we need to do now, immediately besides some of the things that we could do on a long-term plans. We need to be looking at some of those things now to help those people put there in dire straits. I heard Councilman Rizzo say something about, Well, what are they doing about the people that are stressed out and things like that, and that's one of the first times I've heard someone address that, and that's a very important factor, 'cause sometime, we have to sit down and talk to some of these people. They at wit's ends. They don't have no idea, nowhere to go and nothing to do, and we need to really look at that we have a 94 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 moral obligation as leaders to address these. That's all I have to say, Councilman.
Thank you, Councilman Ortiz, for the invitation. I think my concerns have been expressed by everyone here, but it comes to my mind a passage from the Scriptures that says, "My people perish because of the lack of information." And my concern here is information. A lot of the people have expressed that they don't know exactly what's happening. They're getting either information or misinformation from different areas, and they are confused. They're confused. They want to know exactly what is -- they know that their homes are sinking. But what can these hearings provide? Can you provide some kind of timetable where you can meet with the people and inform them in detail so at least they will be at ease. As a pastor in the community for the Logan and Hunting Park and Feltonville, people are just scared. They don't know what's going to 95 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 happen. The houses are going to fall on them, an explosion is going to take place. So we deal with these issues. So it's not just the monetary but also the information. We need to know what's going on. And I agree in what my colleagues here are saying, that if you organize the community in a different matter and way, maybe, you know, it won't be so disastrous and so difficult to deal with the issues. A lot of the people here are poor, they're in need, single parents. It's a community that has been transient for years. Now they decided to do buy homes, and someone has taken their money, lied to them. Can this committee here provide some kind of thorough information, not whether the houses are sinking, because it's happening, but the right information that they can be at ease and their minds could be more calm and get them organized. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you very much. The Army Corps of Engineers, Lt. 96 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Timothy Brown. (Witness comes forward.)
Good afternoon. My name is John Burnes. I'm with the Army Corps of Engineers in Philadelphia. Colonel Brown, who's our commander, he's out of town, at school, out in Levinworth, Kansas. I'm with the Engineering Division and I've been involved historically with aspects of the work at Logan, Wissinoming, as well as Feltonville. I would begin by saying that we issued a report. It's been mentioned by several others and it's dated July of 2000. And in terms of information beyond that. There is nothing at this time to report that would be different. I can leave behind a summary of the conclusions and such. Much of the testimony today has already anticipated much of what I could say here. I would like to say several items of interest. The Corps of Engineers, unlike people like HUD and other agencies often involved with urban areas, does not make grants; but rather, we work on cost-shared projects, cost-shared 97 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 studies. And, also, as a matter of law, we need authority and funding from the Congress. And our mission is traditionally water-related. The reason I make these bureaucratic comments is so you'll appreciate some of the limitations that we have had here to date in trying to work on the problem. Okay. We need authorization, we need authority, and we generally have a cost-shared partner, and in most, all cases, that's like a local municipality; in this case, it would be the City or a City instrumentality and authority. It's been said before that in this initiative at Feltonville, it was requested by the City Congressional delegation, with the input and advice and information from City Council among others. And as also was said before, the funds that the Corps has had to date were strictly had because of the efforts of the delegation to add the money. We were not in a position, and we are not in a position, to fund the activity. Folks like myself and others who have worked day in and day out on the problem are civil servants.
Excuse me. With all 98 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 due respect, I understand that. I want to get down to what you found.
Well, I know, but I have to cover that because it will feed into something else, and I will be quick. I'm saying that it's good news that was interest and action to add the money, but the amounts of it, any future amounts of it, an overall game plan and such is hamstrung because the agency -- the agency in Washington is not routinely choosing to undertake this class of problem.
I want to know whether the money that you were given was sufficient to really analyze all of the aspects of the causation of this problem.
I think our report speaks to that. We did as large an area --
I want it for the record, I want it for the record. Was the money sufficient to go towards the causation of all of the different factors of the problem? Did you need more money to go more in depth?
Largely for area extent. Insofar as the causation, we are comfortable 99 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 with. That we are comfortable with some of the basic mapping that we have done and that we've paid USGS on our account -- that's another agency.
Well, what do you feel uncomfortable with that was not achieved?
Now, we have some money in hand as we speak, but we -- and this other testimony spoke to it. We still have an internal -- I'll call it a "bureaucratic problem" in our agency to reconcile our understanding of where the local people want to go with the restrictions that our Congress and the leadership in Washington will allow us to go.
Did you find any situations that was an imminently dangerous situation in your study?
Okay, I'm trying to put into perspective where we're coming from. I mean, we would hope to remain involved. What I'm trying to say is, it isn't up to the civil servants at all times if we remain involved. That's what I'm trying to see. When we approached the problem, I think we built upon existing information from various City agencies, and in some cases, their professional consultants. I want to say, we had nothing but cooperation and help from these groups. We engaged the US Geological Service, who had also been asked by Congress to help but wasn't necessarily fund sufficiently well. We provided some money to allow their maps to become a matter of public record, and they have been published. 101 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 We used what we call geographic information systems to integrate a lot of information that was out there. It was good information and it was well-accomplished by the City, but maybe not all brought onto one map. We did that, that's been disseminated. We've also done some limited field work; that is, subsurface testing. And this goes directly to verifying the maps and trying to understand the depths of fill. And we've also looked where possible at building exterior reviews.
One of the testifiers -- I think one of the women pointed out the very real problem that you can have a well-kept house but you're two or three doors away from something that's fallen into abandonment or partial use, and that can allow some incipient problems. I mean, it's the water meeting this ash fill that is the culprit; there's not much dispute about that. 102 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 When we produced the July report, it actually was probably early fall when we disseminated it. There's some fancy color graphics. We've gone back to the delegation with that and we've provided that to Risk Management, among others. I believe it's posted on our Website, and we're in the Wanamaker Building. For somebody who wanted to see -- and, again, it's got colored information, which is helpful for clarity, and they can come by and see it. And right now -- it was mentioned by the interfaith group that there is some additional money coming at hand in the year we are in, and we are trying to reconcile the advice of the Congress, the legalese with the way that money came about, with the known desires of everybody to expand at least in the Feltonville area. And that's where that matter rests. The final point I would make, and the clergy has just testified, is that our system is very much premised on cooperation with local interests, and it moves as fast or as slow as local interests can drive it. At the same time, if the State becomes involved, that can help and 103 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 that can lead to a larger partnership. We remain very much controlled and governed by an unusual problem where the extent of our legal authority as the Corps of Engineers isn't necessarily all that clear as of yet. That may emerge and get clarified as we go, but right now today, we don't know that for sure. So we're attempting to go in fits and starts as far as we can as to funding and any instructions which the funding allow.
Okay. And it was included in the July report. We worked in a subsection of Feltonville: Fourth Street on the east, Wyoming to the north, Eighth Street and Boulevard on the west, and Cayuga Street on the south. We produced what we call a topographic change map to show the distribution of fill. We go back as far as a century and show at different locations where the fill is known to be. 104 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 We did investigations by drilling, going out on the streets in selected areas, verifying in fact what's down there at those particular spots. As people would appreciate, it's not homogeneous, it came in in a random way, and we know as much as we know, but more funds would allow improved precision and a growing into other areas where we didn't have the funding and opportunity to poke holes. We took digital images of sewer lines from City agencies. We folded them into this master map -- again, geographic system map, if you will. And we've been trying to marry water, gas, sewer mains that may have been in different formats and we've tried to bring them into a uniform format. Here and there, where we detected a problem -- and Reese Street has been mentioned. I should say that when we learned of things and observed things firsthand, we went back to the Water Department and got very timely cooperation from them. They were very interested and they start to do take things further. So we tried collaboration throughout 105 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 where something was very apparent, and many times, it wasn't all that apparent.
Well, we looked at the dip, we took the addresses, and the engineers on our staff said, this is suggesting that --
That there's a hole. We went to the City Water Department and learned as a matter of routine they have the skills and the tools and the equipment to prove that out, confirm that. And I think, to their credit, they moved out quickly and ran a camera and what have you and found that they would need to take some action.
Did they know how long that hole had been there? Or had they ever been there before? Or when was the last time the Water Department had been around to check those mains and those pipes?
I don't recall offhand. I 106 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 think it was fairly recent information. I'm just saying that they have the standing ability to --
Oh, it could because they rotate around the City with the mapping unit. And so when the --
And so for years, the water could have been seeping into that silt and so on.
And that could have then led to a progressive sinking of the different foundations in that area.
Well, we had to stop short of that because we ourselves did not firsthand go through that, okay. All I -- we would bring that to their attention as -- well, just the ability of people getting this information on where sewers and other things just were, I thought the folks were quite cooperative.
Well, I would imagine that they would have to be cooperative. We got a Congressional delegation bringing in 107 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 money to do a study, and I would hope that our agencies would then cooperate with you to be able to do that. You didn't expect cooperation?
Well, no, but I would say that as outsiders working in a consulting capacity, I think we had to be respecting of the professionals that are in place, just like where some folks were very kind and opened their doors to us --
Did you find any other areas such as the one hole that you found in this particular part?
That was one that I recall because I'm not doing this work firsthand but through others, but we were also concerned that some folks who were good enough to extend an open invitation to see their home firsthand also had to fret over the fact that maybe it wasn't apparent who was a federal civil engineer and who was somebody from L&I who might have to issue, by duty, condemnation papers. So it's been a very delicate area to get facts and technical information, provide to it 108 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 decision-makers who can do the best with it, and not get into some sort of cop state. Because we were not directed by Congress to work as some sort of police capacity.
Again, working with the Water Department, we had sewer line lateral inspections performed on ten homes, and as I mentioned, the main on Reese Street. And that -- that -- these are not new materials, they were in our report, and they've been briefed to the delegation. We've made a lot of preliminary suggestions, you know, such as street trees and such as keeping an eye on abandoned homes or vacant homes that may have downspouts that then contribute water disproportionately to a neighbor's foundation that you do well to try and jury rig-it if need be to keep it away from your foundation. So our expectation is to attempt, with the monies we've yet been given, to expand the area and enlarge it and go from there. My only recent clarification before is 109 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 unlike a classic Corps study that is sanctioned as a routine business of the Corps and a non-federal sponsor, the funding of this will tend to be in fits and starts because it does not fit the parameters of a classically authorized undertaking.
Can we get from the -- and maybe you need more money to be able to come to this conclusion. Can we get from the Army Corps of Engineers as to a conclusion as to how much would it take to make these houses salvageable? Or is the conclusion is that all of these homes are going to have to be torn down? Or can these houses be saved? And what is it -- from the engineering perspective, what is it going to take to be able to bring this to a situation in which it can be rebuilt?
It would be hard for us to speak and offer a general rule throughout the whole area because some of the ironies are at times when you think a home would have severe threats, you go out and observe, and it appears to have weathered everything, and it's not clear how that could be. 110 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 And I'm not trying to make a pitch for a large stream of money as much as a coordinated approach that would be larger than just federal and that would have different sets of expert eyes doing different things. We can see on a given house that if it's not known that the fill is exactly this much and if it's known that this much water got there, well, on that individual house, you might be faced with this type of remediation, but the problem is, it's next door, a joiner on either side would be altogether different, and we don't have the genius that would allow us to make that differentiation. And it would take quite a while to do that. What we've been trying to do is kind of marshal information or not-easily-had technical information and bring it before local interests so that it would be a piece of their future approach to design a fix.
But we need the information to be able to make the public-policy decision.
As to how this 111 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 problem is managed.
And we can't wait twenty years to come to a conclusion about this. And we saw it in Logan in a way that people were just taken out and the homes razed. We have a situation that we want to be able to see what is it that has to be brought to bear from the City and the state and the federal government to make sure that this neighborhood survives.
What we're trying to make is that we have a neighborhood of good people, of people who have invested, and we need to know from the engineers, from the experts what is it and in what direction and what investment the City needs to make in order to save a neighborhood.
And that we need information from you. I thought -- you know, what is it going to take for us to be able to save this neighborhood?
Well, thus far, I would 112 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 say that from the year 2000 report --
If your conclusion is that from your study and your finding that these houses are not in imminently dangerous situation, what would it then take for us to be able to prevent them from becoming imminently dangerous?
Mm-hmm. Well, so far, what we have done and what I'm aware of -- and there could be more -- our information has fed into the Mayor's Office where they've come up with a protocol to start dealing with things. And I would expect, as we did more work and we spin off more results, that they'll be able to refine the protocol. That's the way we've been operating so far. Now, we had 150 spent, we have 150 in the present year.
A strategy, a series of 113 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 steps, and the assigning of which agency, which level of government would do thus and so to confront the problem head-on. As I say, we are very much as federals somewhat circumstanced about no matter what the issue is, how far into a local matter we can ever go. In this case, we've tried to be ambitious, we've tried to think outside the box, but we turn the information over to others who have the rules and regulations to implement things.
Who are the others that you turn the rules and regulations over to?
The City. Are you saying that you've turned over your suggestions to City officials?
Yeah. We published our report, we provided a copy to the City and to the requesting delegation. 114 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175
Well, as I say, from what published things I have come across, I think some of it has gone into effect as the City executive department starts to define how it's going to move from this point.
From your vantage point, what would you see as the next step that would have to occur to make forward progress here?
I think it's already been well-testified to by the interfaith action minister, the gentleman, the reverend that sat in this seat here, and that is that it would probably take local and state and federal government working in some sort of consolidated way to address the various aspects of the problem, keeping in mind that we, Corps of Engineers, are largely technicians. We are not necessarily the money managers and insurance expertise and the way to comprehensively attack the problem.
Who should develop the next few steps? Who would you say -- 115 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175
Can we take five minutes. (Break taken.) - - - (Proceedings resume.)
Joseph Perrello Robert Solvibile, and Commissioner Richard Roy. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon, guys. I want to thank you all for coming and being so patient and staying and listening to what was said. I imagine that many of the things were no surprise, but let's see if we can begin to get into the situation of where is it that we got to go in essence. I read your testimony, we'll make it a part of the record. I want to know, really, from the three 116 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 of you right now, because I think I respect Mr. Solvibile, and with Mr. Perrello, we have been through a lot. The Water Commissioner is new, we haven't been through as much.
We need to be able to go where it is we're going. Obviously, we have a Neighborhood Transformation Initiative that we're talking about. We have a neighborhood. I don't know how to label that neighborhood -- a neighborhood in transition, a neighborhood in despair? Given all of the definitions that we've gotten, it is a neighborhood of working-class people. We have the experience the Logan, and Mr. Solvibile and this Council has gone through that, and we saw it today and we had that. And obviously, it's not a history that we want to repeat. I think we put in a lot of money and we wasted a lot of money. We don't want to see a devastation occur. I think this Council's focus is to save the been neighborhood. If you're going to begin a 117 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 blight program and a Neighborhood Transformation Initiative, I think this neighborhood can either prove that you can do it or prove that you can't. It's almost like a test case. And so, to me, these are people who have made an investment in the City. They stayed, they went through all of the problems of North Philadelphia, they educated their kids. And now it's our responsibility to give them some hope. And hope I hope we can begin giving them as of today. So, who's going to go, Mr. Solvibile?
Councilman Ortiz, my name is Joseph R. Perrello. I'm the Deputy Director of Finance for Risk Management. With me today are Commissioner Roy from the Water Department and Deputy Commissioner Robert Solvibile from Licenses and Inspections. Rather than going over my written testimony, which you alluded to -- you do have a copy of it and you have read it -- I will just paraphrase some of the things and highlight some of the things that are important from it. Our first involvement -- Risk 118 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 Management's first involvement in the subsidence issue actually started in 1999 with the Wissinoming situation. And based on the results of the situation in Wissinoming, we realized that the concern and the problems with subsidence throughout the City needed to be addressed. As a result of that, the Rendell Administration, in late 1999, commissioned a task force, which was comprised of Risk Management, Licenses and Inspections, Water and Capital Programs, to look at the problem on a citywide basis. That task force was continued on with the present administration, and we have been looking at trying to deal with the issues of subsidence since December of 1999. The present focus of the task force has been to work with the US Army Corps of Engineers and the US Geological Service to try to come up with, number one, answers to the problems both in Wissinoming and in Feltonville, and to come up with responses to the recommendations that the Army Corps of Engineers has made. We have included our responses to the Army Corps's recommendations in the update, which 119 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 we included with our testimony. And we've also put together a --
Is that the homeowner's manual, the maintenance handbook?
Yes, the City Update on Sinking Homes Task Force recommendations of May 9, 2001. We've also put together a draft of we call "The Homeowner's Maintenance Manual," or maintenance handbook, and we intend to distribute this handbook on a citywide basis. And the focus on handbook is not so much -- and we heard a lot of testimony today from the residents and homeowners about trying the maintain their homes, and the maintenance manual is in no way suggesting to say that these people are not maintaining their homes. What the maintenance manual is intended to do is help people recognize things that they may not have considered or may not be looking for on a daily basis and help to educate them and 120 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 educate the community and the community constituencies and groups on how to find and maintain problems that may not be so conspicuous to the layperson. These are things that will be included in that manual. We have maintained ongoing relationships with the Army Corps and the USGS since the winter of 1999. We have been in constant communication with them. We have asked the US Geological Service to work together with us in sponsoring a study, using Professor Ann Spurn (ph.), who is now at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. She was at University of Pennsylvania. She's an exert on buried flood plains and she's put out a report for HUD dealing with this issue. Last week, we were able to talk to Dr. Spurn and we were able to get her to agree to participate in helping us to expand the national flood insurance program that's offered by FEMA and also the mine subsidence program offered by the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection to try to include the subsidence problem in Philadelphia in those two insurance 121 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 programs. We are also trying to work with several state and local representatives to get some private-sector insurance companies to develop an interest in the program and maybe even work with the State Guarantee Fund to try to find some additional funding. We are reaching out to both the federal level, through our Councilmen and our Congressman to try to work on the state and federal level to find out additional sources of monies to work with HUD and work with all of the housing agencies to help us to find both city, state, and local funding that we can put together to address this problem. And I think the one part of the handbook and also of the update that we presented to you is the fact that the mission of the task force that we're working on is exactly as you stated, which is to preserve the neighborhoods and not to demolish them. And so we're trying to do is find ways and means and funding to put programs in place that will assist the homeowners to maintain their 122 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 properties and to preserve their neighborhoods rather than tear them down. And we're here to answer any questions you may have.
We have a problem. You describe it, and it's very good. We know the problem. We know that we have in many areas of the City a subsidence problem. But we have a problem right here. Many families right now in this area are looking to you, not for a theoretical framework and not for some aspect into the year 2010. They're looking for us right now for a solution to their despair. You heard the testimony. Twenty-five years in a house. A woman wakes up every morning thinking as to what is going to be happening to her and her family. They are not coming down here 123 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 and they haven't been for the last three or four years organizing and writing letters to the Water Department, to L&I, to the Mayor because they're not concerned; they are concerned. And we have to this point not given them a satisfactory answer to their problem, other than we could go in and we probably may have to evict you and take you out of the home. And that doesn't answer their question, because where are they going to go? And that creates a bigger problem for us because where are we going to put 'em?
So to me, where we begin today with you is, what are we going to do with the Feltonville problem and how are we going to proceed? Because I think -- I think, depending on how we deal with this problem, we'll decide and make -- the plan and the strategy will be the way we are going to deal with the problem that Councilman Rizzo mentioned in terms of the 4th Councilmatic District or another problem that may occur in another area of the City. And we can't wait until a disaster happens. An explosion has 124 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 happened in Logan. How are we going to deal with the problem? We have it, it's not theoretical, it is real. What strategy, what plan are we going to put into place so that these families, Philadelphians -- we have a Neighborhood Transformation Initiative coming up. Their neighborhood is being transformed -- not to their liking. How can we begin with you in this hearing and in the subsequent hearings we will have, because this will not be the last one. How do we begin to put together that strategy? This is all what this is for. They need to go home tonight with some sense that we may not have the answer maybe right now, but they have to go home tonight with a sense that we're not going to abandon that neighborhood and that we are going to come up with an answer and if we have to bring in the State, if we have to bring in the federal government. They don't care where it comes from. They understand that they're citizens of the City and the City has a responsibility. So what do we tell them? 125 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 I think the testimony can be very short. The questions and answers don't have to be very extensive. It is-- and I think Bob understands, we cannot go through this -- fifteen years after the fact, Logan is still without answers to many other issues, after $33 million is spent. I think we can do it for much less than $33 million. But after $33 million, we still don't have the answer at Logan. I don't want to go through the same process. So tell me.
My first response, Councilman, would be, you're correct, we don't have an answer today. The encouragement, if there is encouragement, is that the City is not neglecting this neighborhood, the City is not ignoring this neighborhood. Feltonville has been on the minds of our three departments on a daily basis and in the meetings that we've had with the Mayor's Office. And we are working with the Army Corps of Engineers and with the US Geological Service to come up with solutions and come up with funding mechanisms through both the federal and the state levels to help us deal with this 126 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 problem. And we also do not want to go in and evict these people and chase them out of their homes. We would prefer to be able to help them stay in their homes and work with them to save their neighborhoods. And that's what the goal is. We don't have the answer today, but we're trying to put it together and get an answer for you as quickly as possible.
I think, Councilman, that Dr. Spurn is going to be very big in helping us find the solution to the problem in working with her. She has a national reputation, I believe, in Boston?
She was successful in putting together a plan for that community to help preserve it. So I think she is going to be a big first step in helping us come up with a solution to this problem.
When can we expect some sort of a response, even the schematics of a plan to deal with the Feltonville homes? Not even a full-fledged-out plan, but a plan? 127 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175
I think we can go back and work with Licenses and Inspections and the Mayor's Office to put together a plan within the next several weeks.
Again, I need a timeline. I don't think they go home every night -- they need to know that at a certain time, a certain date, they're going to hear from the City about a certain -- at least a plan that may come up.
Unfortunately, we don't have access to Dr. Spurn until after the 4th of June.
But I don't think you need just Dr. Spurn present to be able to at least start coming up with some semblance of a plan to deal with this problem.
No, we have been working on a plan throughout basically based on what we have with the Army Corps of Engineers report and our responses to the Army Corps of Engineers and some of the work that the Water Department has already done in that regard. Basically, the City's update on sinking 128 5/9/01 PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 010175 homes basically says that, you know, we are going through all of these steps to put together a plan and that it will be developed here within the next -- here again, I can't be more specific than I could say the next several weeks to a month.
Let's say that June 10th -- that's a Sunday, that's no good. Let's say June 12th. We'll recess this committee till June 12th, and on June 12th, we'll have the community, we'll have folks here once again, and you'll come back again and then we can ask questions because we'll have something in front of us. All right?
Okay. All right, this meeting stands in recess until June 12th at 1 o'clock in the afternoon. (Adjourned 4:10 p.m.) 129 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Wednesday, May 9, 2001, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY RES. NO. 010175 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter