COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, October 7, 2004 2:00 p.m. - - - - BILL 040432 - Ordinance amending Chapter 10-400 of the Philadelphia Code entitled "Noise and Excessive Vibration" by amending Section 10-404 entitled "Prohibited Conduct"... BILL 040698 - Ordinance amending Section 9-605 of the Philadelphia Code entitled "Towing"... PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO, Chair COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN JAMES KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN JUAN RAMOS - - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 I N D E X BILL 040432 PAGE FRANCIS HEALEY, Police Department.... BILL 040698 WILLIAM GAMBLE, Procurement.......... 65 OTIS HAIGLER, JR., L&I............... 66 ED ALFANO, Century Auto.............. 77 JOHN DEVERGILLIS, Phila. Authorized Towers and Salvers............... 79 JOE TRENT, Southwest Auto Assoc...... 81 RICHARD ANTANUCCI, Phila. Towing and Transport........................ 81 JACK LOGAN, Logan Towing............. 82 3 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432
Let me open this public meeting. The Committee Members here are Councilwoman Krajewski and myself, Councilman Mariano, Councilman Rizzo, and the President appointed Councilman Kenney and Councilman DiCicco for this hearing and Councilman Kelly, so we have someone from everywhere in the City. The Clerk will read the title of Bill 040432.
Bill 040432, amending Chapter 10-400 of the Philadelphia Code entitled "Noise and Excessive Vibration" by amending Section 10-404 entitled "Prohibited Conduct" by providing for the issuance of tickets in commercial districts for violation of this chapter by reducing the decibel level permitted in commercial districts and by make certain technical changes, all under certain terms and conditions.
The first panel to testify is Francis Healey, Philadelphia Police Department. Someone from the Health Department can come up with him. 4 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 Is there someone from the Health Department? Mr. Healey, you go first. And say your name for the record, identify yourself and organization or group or affiliation.
Good afternoon, Councilman Mariano and other Members of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. My name is Francis Healey, and I'm here to represent Police Commissioner Johnson and the Philadelphia Police Department. First, Commissioner Johnson would like for me to extend his gratitude for allowing the Police Department to express its opinion on this very important quality-of-life legislation. The Philadelphia Police Department has long identified that chronic and excessive noise undermines the quality of life in those neighborhoods so afflicted. Regrettably, in the past, the only agency charged with enforcing City noise ordinances was the Health Department, and this agency has been historically overburdened with the shear 5 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 volume of commercial noise complaints to truly address the residential issues. Accordingly, a void had existed in noise enforcement throughout the City. While the Health Department aggressively addressed commercial noise, little if anything could be done to abate the chronic residential complaints received by the Police Department through the 911 system. This was the very reason why the Police Department has recently begun to enforce the noise ordinance in the residential neighborhoods throughout the City. Commissioner Johnson has made a commitment of manpower and equipment to help combat this problem. Although the Police Department's role in noise enforcement is primarily residential in nature, we understand the problems that exist towards the commercial areas as well. Accordingly, the Police Department would support any amendments strengthening the existing noise ordinance or the ease of enforcement against commercial violators. 6 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 This would conclude the testimony on behalf of the Police Department, and I'd be available for any questions.
Any questions from the Committee Members for Mr. Healey? Councilwoman Krajewski first.
I'm interested in how many police officers have been trained on the use of the decibel meter readers? I understand there's only one officer per district being trained? Any there any plans to --
Originally, the plan was to train one officer per squad so there would be a noise-trained officer in each squad in each district around the clock. As of today, I believe there's approximately over a hundred police officers trained in the use of the noise meters.
Now it's a 7 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 hundred?
That's the method we're trying to get to. Regrettably, some officers get transferred or promoted so we're trying to jockey around. What we want to do is have at least one noise-trained officer available should a chronic noise complaint comes into the Police Department that even if there's not one in the district that there will be one in either a neighboring district that could easily come over and write a citation if necessary.
Can you tell me how many violations have been issued as a direct result of these meters?
I checked about two and a half weeks ago, and apparently, there's been no citations written. But what I've been told anecdotally is that the threat of the machines themselves being on location has had a much 8 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 greater impact than what we actually anticipated. People walking up to the door now with the noise meters is apparently abating a lot of the problems.
Let me tell you something. Right on my own street -- I think that's one of the reasons I get deeply involved in this -- the noise from the motorcycle going up our street every night of the week, it wakes people up. Then we have someone in the back, directly in the back on my side very, very sick, a very sick woman there. On the other side, he guns his motor somewhere anywhere between 6, 6:30 every morning. It must be a junker; I don't know. But it is unbelievable the noise that's made there. I have reported it, but I don't know what's happened to it.
If you give me the address, I'd be happy to have the captain in 9 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 that district look into it personally. It may be more than just the noise, there's also motor vehicle violations for having loud engines and stuff like that. We may be able to cite on other issues as well as noise.
And I get calls to the office regarding dogs. When the owner leaves for work in the morning somewhere around 7:30 or so -- of course, it's winter now, I guess the windows will be closed. But that dog goes on and on and on and barks for hours on end. What do they do about that? Do they go around and warn them or what?
The police officers, they'll do the best they can. Historically we haven't had a lot of options available to us. What we have done in the past, we've contacted Human Relations Commission to help settle the situation because a lot of times those situations grow into -- they escalate into disturbance and violence actually results a lot of times out of them. What we do, the Human Relations Commission is oftentimes brought in to mediate 10 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 the situation rather than making citations, at the point we didn't have the opportunity to do in the past. At this point in time, if it's a chronic noise complaint, according to the directive I drafted, the officer would be able to go out there with the noise meter and make a violation.
Well, the officers that are on duty, are they able to enact it, I mean, give someone a citation? Does it have to be someone that was trained, or can it just be an officer that's on duty?
If that officer is not around, the noise goes on and on and on with a motorcycle, say, without mufflers, cars without mufflers?
Well, that's not just a noise violation, that's on the Motor Vehicle Code violation as well. That would be a much easier thing for us to handle from the Police Department's perspective than actually having 11 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 to issue a noise code violation notice. So what I'll do, if you give me the address where that's at, I'll see what we can do with the captain directly in the morning via Motor Vehicle Code violations which, quite frankly, is a more --
But if the officer is riding around or walking a beat and hears a motorcycle that's gunning and gunning, it's very distracting, he can't give out a citation?
Not for noise, no. We can't train 7,000 police officers on the noise meters.
We got a problem. We need more officers trained then for it.
We're working aggressively to get more trained, but the objective was -- the first step is for the initial officer not to just ignore what's going on but try to mediate it. And if that doesn't work, the next step is for that officer to contact the noise trained officer 12 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 to observe the noise and then issue the citation.
I can sit out on my patio and you cannot talk to your neighbor with the same motorcycle that goes up the street every night. It's unbelievable the noise that he makes.
I think we can address the motorcycle issue apart from this, and I'd be happy to get the address and the street and I'll make sure --
I have no 14 clue where this guy lives. He lives someplace -- I don't know. But no one knows where he lives or who he is.
If he comes up and down the street every day, we'll find out.
I'll talk to you after the hearing and I'd be happy to get the time and the address. I'll make sure that we address it.
Don't you 13 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 think we should have more officers other than just one per squad?
Quite frankly, I'd love to have more machines as well. The machines are almost $3,000 a piece for each machine. The way we acquired the machine was through block grant money. I lobbied the federal government for the money and put up the reasons why.
You're saying there has been no violations written up?
There is something wrong; there is something basically wrong.
There's a two-step process in training. One is, regrettably, you need to learn how to use the machines and write a proper citation so you can stand it up in court. That's the one thing. The second thing is officers specifically have to be authorized to write Code violation notices, which are different 14 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 than any notices that the average officer writes. Usually only the operations room 4 supervisor or the sanitation trained officers were the only ones authorized to issue Code violation notices. We're expediting getting more officers trained on how to write the ticket. How to write the ticket is quite simple. You check the box and sign off. But the way our procedure is set forth, we have to have specific authorization. And we're doing the best we can to move that along as quickly as possible because, quite frankly, we deal with issues in Manayunk as well as the Northeast on this noise issue that I would like to see more citations myself.
Because it seems senseless. We introduce bills, we pass bills, but if they're not going to be enforced, I can't understand what the meaning is. I don't know if the other Councilpeople who have the same problem with the noise. I don't know anyone who has ever 15 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 been written up.
We're in the process of getting things up and running, and that's the point.
Could you send that over to this Committee, that there have been no violations, you're saying, and how many officers are being trained?
I'll also forward over the policy that I drafted on how the police are to respond to noise specifically so you'll know exactly the Police Department's perspective on how we're dealing with the issue. I'll give you that as well. That's our directive on noise.
I think you're familiar where I live. 16 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432
You don't own any motorcycle, do you? I want to say Councilwoman Brown has joined us, a member of the Committee. I have a question, and then we'll go this way, Councilman Kenney, Councilman Rizzo. In the East Police Division, I don't know what was written. I really don't think you do yet. I think there's two things. First of all, explain to non-police personnel what a squad is. In plain English, that means in the 24th, for instance, there's one machine assigned to the 24th. Is it on the street hours a day? 21
Let me explain that. 17 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 There's three squads per district. What they do is around the clock, day work, to and 4 then last out. 5
So there should 6 be somebody that can operate this thing? 7
Right. Our plan is to 8 have at least one person trained in each squad 9 so that way they can address a chronic noise 10 around the clock. We also planned it so if 11 that person is on vacation or he's off that 12 night that there's also people in other districts that would be available. In a chronic noise, the whole problem is it's ongoing. So we might not be able to write a ou citation tonight because the officer is not available, but we'll get it tomorrow night. That's kind of the plan. It's not a hundred percent perfect yet. And I would love to have as many people trained as possible. It's just the cost.
Let me hold you up right there. What I want to follow-up on is in the 24th where I live, this sounds great but I know that a policeman assigned to the 18 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 24th is not going to have any time to write any noise complaints because he's just going to be busy doing other more serious stuff. Our point is -- and I'm sure the people that wrote this bill, Councilman DiCicco, Councilwoman Krajewski, this is great idea, but the quality-of-life thing that drives people away from this City is the stuff that happens not just day in and day out, that occasional stuff, the loud car radio. You can do it here but, my son gets a ticket in Wildwood five years ago. And obviously it's because Wildwood is a smaller Police Department and the police have less more-violent things to worry about. But I just don't see a time here ever under our current financial however you want to look at it that police in the 24th or anywhere in the east or probably anywhere in the City with the exception of maybe a couple small area time they're going to have time to write -- even if they're trained on it, are they really going to time to write these kinds of tickets?
It is our intention 19 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 because what happens is, quite frankly, under the broken windows theory, little tiny things that affect the neighborhood ultimately grow into bigger and bigger things. People move out. People don't care. Apathy sets in. So the Police Department is very aware of this. We know that those little things that we once ignored years ago because we thought our 10 job was law enforcement, crime fighting. 11
But on that, we 12 didn't ignore them 20 years ago because 13 Councilman Rizzo who is as old as dirt told me 14 that he got a ticket for having glass packs on 15 his car when he was 17, so that was before I 16 was born when he was 17. But that means 30 17 years ago they did that stuff. 18
Why did they do 20 it then and not now? Because of the same thing that I'm talking about?
I believe the shear volume. I think in the past -- I can only speak to the Timoney era and since. Timoney came in and identified the small issues as 20 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 being major problems in communities that we need as a Police Department to address. Commissioner Johnson is more community oriented than any other police officer I've ever met. So he also agrees with this, that we need to address this. Our job is not just to go out there and fight crime and forget about everything else. And that's why we actually made a commitment to the sound meters. Now, is it a hundred percent perfect? The answer is no, it's not. In the 24th District when they've a hundred jobs sitting in the hole, am I going to write noise violations, I'm not going to lie to you, the answer is probably going to be no. But we need to address a way to better handle that ourselves. We're not just going to sit here and ignore it.
What happens when a car radio is blasting? The 21 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 officer cannot issue that person a violation?
It's a different violation. There's a Code section in the Philadelphia Code if you can hear a car radio I believe it's more than feet from the car, 7 the officer is authorized to write a citation. 8 So you don't need any technical equipment to 9 do that. All he's got to do is say, "I 10 observed the noise more than 25 feet." 11
I'm saying, 12 a police officer is parked, maybe he's in the 13 Wawa or whatever or just parked for a light 14 and a car is blasting. What would that 15 officer do? 16
He can right a citation 17 not out of the 10-400 Code section, but 18 there's another Code section that he can write 19 the ticket for. And they routinely do 20 specifically on South Street. Officers up and 21 down South Street write those tickets almost 22 every Friday and Saturday night that I'm aware 23 of. 24
And what 25 type of ticket is that? Is it a citation or 22 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 what?
It's a Code violation notice. I don't know the section off the top of my head.
Can they ignore that citation, or what do they do with it?
It's just like a parking ticket. If they ignore it, they're going to have fines and penalties, and it's in their name, it's in their car so ultimately I believe the car can be booted. I'm not sure of that but --
No, it's a ticket. I believe it's a $25 ticket, but I'm not sure of the actual cost. I can get that to you. I'll look it up. I just don't have the Code with me.
Councilman Rizzo. 23 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432
Sergeant, I think we need to get on the same page here about the barking doing. I believe the Health Department's Air Management Division has a process where they monitor air conditioners that make excessive noise on rooftops, barking dogs. So Air Management of the Health Department -- you're from the Health Department, right? And you'll be able to speak about what you do in the Health Department Air Management? Sarge, you said something that totally confuses me. In other jurisdictions that use decibel level meters don't go up and knock on the door. The police officer pulls up outside of the property that's involved in the disorderly complaint, takes the reading, walks up to the door and gives the owner of the property the violation. You said that you go up and knock on the door, show them you got the meter. I've checked on a lot of different jurisdictions, and they don't operate that way. They come up to the front of the property, take the 24 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 reading; if the reading is in excess, they get the violation.
Councilman, that's not exactly how I said it. What I said is our first step, because we don't have meters throughout the City, an officer will get a 911 call for loud music. He'll go there. Nine times out of we can abate by our mere 10 presence. "Turn the music down. Don't let me have to come back." If I have to come back, the officer says, "I was there. Send the noise meter trained officer." That officer will then go. We're knocking on the door and telling them to turn it down again. He stands out there and does exactly what you just said.
That's better. Sarge, knowing how the 911 priority system works, it sounds as though what Councilwoman Krajewski just said, doesn't appear to me to ever work because, first of all, on a busy night if someone calls 911 and complains about loud music, it might be two hours before the police officer even gets there. Then I can't imagine once the police 25 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 officer gets there to then try to get that one officer in the squad to respond with the decibel level meter to take the reading. It sounds like another one of these problems that our intentions are good, we've spent a lot of taxpayers money. It's the same with the vascar and the other things that we don't have anymore working properly. To me, it just doesn't sound -- again, with the knowledge that I have of how our priority system works at police radio that we will ever -- not have one violation yet, I think it's proven the point.
I would agree. I was actually taken aback there no citations written myself as well. However, you've got to understand, this program was chronic noise. Just because I get one noise call complaint over 911 does not make it a chronic complaint. I can't handle the noise meter with what I have for every noise job that comes out. So I'm trying to get my captains focus in on the chronic ones. What they can do is if I find out at a certain location, 123 Main Street is 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 a chronic noise complaint, I don't need to wait for a 911 call. I'm putting it on the captain's responsibility to take the bull by the horns and send your people out there in a proactive measure. So you're going to have four or five chronic -- every district has a handful of chronic noise complaints. They probably make up 80 percent of the 911 calls. Now, it's up to the captains themselves to identify those locations and use his noise trained officers proactively. I can't tell them how to police their district, but this is a resource and their biggest complaints are noise. So I would assume that these captains will take the bull and handle it themselves.
What I do suggest is that you talk to the Health Department because there are a lot of services available by Air Management to do some of the things. The chronic barking dog like the Council Lady described, I've got one in my neighborhood that when they go to work the dog is in the yard and the poor dog barks all day. And I believe there's a standard, 30 minutes 27 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 continued barking, they can deal with that, SPCA or Animal Control. But there are a lot of overlapping here which I think if the Police Department and Health Department got together could be helpful in resolving some of these issues.
That was whole point of us actually undertaking the residential side of it. Because historically, Air Management was pegged with the responsibility with both commercial residential. And quite frankly, they're overwhelmed. So we saw a void under Commissioner Timoney to step in. And we took that aggressively. It's not a hundred percent perfect and I'm not going to say it is, but we intend to evolve it as best we can.
Also like the Council Lady said about these cars that come up along side of you, I mean, they actually make your car vibrate, some of the bass in these vehicles, and you can hear them all over. So what you're telling me is if a police officer is on patrol, observes that conduct, they don't need a decibel level 28 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 meter. And I believe, Sarge, since I had personal experience that a police officer can write a motor vehicle violation for loud exhaust systems that are not, let's say, factory installed like a motorcycle, put straight through pipes.
Now the reporters are checking to see if you ever paid that ticket.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, Mr. Healey. You mentioned that there are a hundred or so officers that have been trained to date to operate these sound meters, noise meters. How many meters does the City of Philadelphia have?
Our original grant, I 29 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 obtained meters and I believe we obtained 4 more from the Health Department, I believe; 24 4
So we have one 11 per district? There are no backups in the 12 event that one of them fails, I would assume? 13
Do we have any 15 plans to purchase additional, or is it 16 strictly a budgetary issue? 17
It's strictly a 18 budgetary issue now. We're looking to 19 purchase more meters as well as train more 20 officers. Actually, the training of more officers is probably more crucial to us at this point than the more meters.
As to the meters, how much do they cost approximately?
The meters, I think, 30 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 are approximately 3,000 with the calibration system.
Not to get off this bill in particular which deals with the situation of noise emanating from businesses and houses, et cetera, but I want to go back to what Councilwoman Krajewski was talking about, the motorcycles. Several years ago, I had hearings on that very issue here. And for lots of different reasons, I couldn't even get the bill out of Committee at the time. It's something I've been thinking about revisiting in the future, in the not too distant future. South Street, I believe there are a number of tickets, a considerable number of tickets that are written on a weekly basis for the noise under the noise ordinance, being able to hear music coming from a car within 21 feet. Are those tickets being issued as a 22 result of the noise meter, or is it basically 23 a judgment call on behalf of the police? 24
That violation itself 25 doesn't use -- I don't believe that's under 31 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 the noise ordinance; I believe that's under the Traffic Code. Whereas, if you can hear the loud noise in excess of feet, so the 5 officer uses the 25 feet judgment line. They 6 don't need a meter. 7
My question 8 then is, if we can do it under the Traffic 9 Code, what do we need to do as it relates to 10 motorcycles? I mean, it's very obvious that 11 the noise that they're emanating because they 12 did remove the baffle from the muffler system. 13 And I have nothing against people who drive 14 motorcycles. I have a scooter, it's a small 15 version of a motorcycle, but there are people 16 who have motorcycles -- 17
It's two 20 wheels, right. 21 There are motorcycles that are out 22 there today which are very quiet because the 23 owners of those motorcycles do not remove the 24 baffle from the muffler system. There are 25 those for whatever reason have this desire to 32 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 have this very loud vehicle. And I'm not going to get into some of the testimony that was presented several years ago, but could we not just have a police officer -- I mean, it's very obvious that the sound that is emanating from that motorcycle is well beyond the decibel level, it's well within the feet. 9 I mean, I live at 11th and Federal, 10 and I can hear motorcycles coming from 9th and 11 Federal, generally when they're leaving Pat's 12 and Gino's Steaks, just ripping up the street. 13 Some of them decide to go south on 11th and 14 they're stopped at the corner of 11th and 15 Wharton revving up the engine. And you know 16 it's at the corner of 11th and Wharton. There 17 are two police districts there. And I just 18 think it's a cultural thing. And I'm not 19 discrediting the police in this City. I think 20 they do a magnificent job. But I think it's 21 kind of one of those things, well, it's going 22 to pass. The noise as Councilwoman says is 23 passing, but it's continual sometimes and it's 24 nerve racking, it sets off the alarms of cars. 25 It wakes people up. I mean, you can't -- 33 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 Councilman Kenney, if I can use a term that he uses, it's one of the instabilities of living in the City. But I think it goes beyond the instabilities. I think this is truly an issue of public safety, quality of life, and really public health. It is ear shattering. And I know that there may be some people in here who have motorcycles and probably will be offended by this, but I just don't understand it. If you lived out in the country, maybe it works. But when you live in the City where the houses are close, it's like living in cavern. And that noise is beyond what anyone should have to listen to. And it's not infrequent, at least in my neighborhood it isn't. Maybe it's because I live close to South Street.
I'm laying a little foundation out for whenever we get to that hearing.
You can get a ticket if you have a bad muffler on your car.
Yes, you can 34 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 get one if you have a bad muffler on your car. And I'm not going to revisit this. Maybe for another day. But I just want to lay a little foundation out now for whenever we get to that other hearing.
Councilman, if I may, on the more motorcycle thing, being one of those motorcycle guys. I do have one and it is one of the ones that has short pipes and came like that. But here's the thing. I didn't buy it for that reason. It happens to be. But here's the reasoning that you'll probably get from those bikers. I'm just adding that, thought, this isn't a debate.
I think I know what it is. I already heard it probably.
What most bikers will say to you is "The reason my bike is so loud" -- it's in their mind, they firmly believe this; I'm not saying it's true -- "is I want people to hear me coming in cars." I'm not sticking up for it. When you're on a bike, no matter if it's a scooter, a motorcycle, it's still two wheels, people 35 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 are busy doing everything else, talking on the phone, putting on make-up, eating, watching DVDs, as you well know, and it's cultural --
Councilman, I've heard that at the hearing. With all due respect, I don't think that holds any water because people who are bicycles don't make any noise. I'm on a highway and I don't know there's a motorcycle behind me or a car unless they either flash the lights or honk the horn. I think, no disrespect to you, I think that's a poor excuse.
And if it was an excuse, I don't need to hear you coming three blocks away.
I had a experience with a motorcycle just about two months ago. We were riding up the Boulevard. I was going up the Boulevard, and all of a sudden a motorcycle is on the left of me and went right and hit my rearview mirror trying 36 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 to go pass.
That was the excuse I said you would hear. I'm not giving it.
I can honestly say, it took me by surprise. He was in the wrong. But these motorcycles that are out there, with all due respect to you, Councilman, I just think there's something wrong with these people when they have to have it loud and have to gun it draw attention.
I guess the only way I can answer that, and I'll end with this because we're going to get too far away from the issue before us, is that there are a number of people who own motorcycles and they don't do anything to modify the muffler system when they buy it and they have a hum to them, they have a little bit of noise which is about the best you can do. And why is it any less 37 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 safe for them than it would be for the other person who decides that they have to pull the baffle out? I mean, they're both driving a two-wheel vehicle. One person decides to keep it legal and the other person decides to make it illegal, which it is. You know how they do it, they pull the baffle out. Then when they've got to get it inspected, they put it back in. They take it to an inspection shop. They get a sticker and they come back out and remove it. I think it's a cultural thing, whatever you want to call it. But it doesn't help us to keep people in this City. It's just another one of those reasons that people say, "I've had it."
I cannot understand one per squad. I don't understand why the police officer doesn't have the right to stop these people. They don't need a meter. It's before them. They see it.
Ma'am, our officers do stop loud motorcycles and issue citations. That's under the Pennsylvania Motor Vehicle 38 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 Code. Those violations are written. I think, quite frankly, from a police officer's perspective, I'm not sure what's legal and illegal. And I'm lawyer. I don't know it is actually an illegal muffler. I know our highway patrol routinely hammers especially these bikers on these mufflers.
Didn't you state that there have been no violations given?
I know, but there's something wrong when there's no 16 violations have been written.
Under the noise ordinance going up to residences. I didn't say there were no violations given for loud mufflers or for loud music coming out of cars.
But you did say you'll send that over to the Chair?
Right. There's been no 24 tickets issued under 10-400 of the City Code which is the noise ordinance. Tickets have 39 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 been written under the Traffic Code and the like, but there's a difference.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Fran, I mean no disrespect or no 10 offense, because you're here representing the Police Department and that's your job and this is the testimony. We nitpick this thing to death. We try to create a program that's so absolutely legally perfect that we wind up being ineffective. What's the decibel level that you can write a noise ordinance violation for a home with loud music or Councilwoman Krajewski's neighbor with the bike? What's the level that triggers the fine?
Does anyone know? What is the decibel level that triggers the fine for a disorderly house that has music 40 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 blasting out of it. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It is 3 decibels above background.
What's that? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: However, if you look at Chapter 10-404, Paragraph 5, there is also the requirement of audible at a distance greater than 100 feet from the property boundary. Now, that, you don't need a meter for.
Why then don't we just write the ticket? I understand we want to get the guns, we want to spend the $3,000 a piece, we want to train the officers. Why don't we just start writing the tickets? You're not giving the ticket to F. Lee Bailey. I'm sure some people are want to litigate that ticket or that violation or are going to want to go to court and have their day, but most of the people who are doing this are going to pay the fine or they're going to ignore the fine and then we're going to be able to get them another way. Even if they go to court to challenge the fact that it only 2 decibels 41 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 higher than background as opposed to 3, it's an inconvenience out of their day. They've got to take off work and they've got to go to court. Start writing the tickets and you'll stop half of the stuff. I understand wanting to have a nice tight bill, we're in the law. You're a lawyer and you want to make sure that you follow that. If every captain in the district told their people start writing the tickets to the knuckle heads who are constantly going back to those houses every day and night, start writing the tickets now. Give them a ticket every day, give them a ticket every hour, and it will eventually build up to the point where they will be so inconvenienced or so financially hamstrung that they will either modify their behavior or move. We do this -- as long as I've been around here, every time we do a program, we kind of analyze it to death. Isn't there a disturbing the peace ordinance in the City of Philadelphia? Isn't there an ordinance for 42 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 disturbing the peace, the general --
Disorderly conduct, you could write them up for that. You could write them up for anything. And you could probably craft a pretty credible case against that. "I appeared on the scene. The music was blasting. I could hear it three blocks away." That's got to be 3 decibels above background. And I'm going to write the noise ordinance. Now, if you want to go challenge that in Court, take the day off from work and come challenge it because we'll be waiting for you. I mean, we tie our own hands behind our back and then we wonder why we can't be effective. I see no reason why each captain in every district that has this problem tells all their squad people in those sectors, "Write the ticket every shift. If the music is blasting every shift, write the ticket every shift." It won't be long before those fines 43 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 start to build up to a point where they start to became effective. I just think we're spinning our wheels trying to be as legal as possible when I still think within the law we can reasonably address the problem. Just my opinion. Write the tickets. Start writing them today and don't stop writing them until they stop.
It makes sense. If a police officer is parked waiting for a light and they see and they hear this loud, loud noise, you're telling me that they won't write them up?
No, ma'am, I've never said that. I said that's under the Traffic Code. The officers do write those tickets.
But I have to agree with Councilman Kenney; he's absolutely right, it makes sense. That's why they don't enforce, I guess, I don't know.
See if you can get to me and I'll distribute how many tickets have been written on the any disturbance with noise, okay? 44 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 Councilman Ramos, I don't know if I announced he was here. He's here. Councilman Kelly.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Officer, I just want to know, how much are these citations?
I believe they're $25 citations. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure.
If the person refuses to pay that, what's the next step?
That would be an administrative step with The Bureau of Adjudication.
If those people ignore many of those citations, what happens then? In a case of a parking ticket, I know they have the right to go out and boot a car. But in this case with a motorcycle, for instance or people just making loud noise on a radio, what do they do? How do they get those people in to 45 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 really pay attention to those citations to begin with? Are they just a mere piece of paper that people just look the other and "Well, who cares?" And they just turn their volume up louder the next night? I don't know. I don't see any enforcement coming here. I don't know and I think one of the reasons is because, number 1, the fine is much too low. I think if you're going to make an impact, I think what we have to do is we have to make this really hurt them. And you hurt them in the pocketbook, but if you do that then you need the enforcement to back it up. You have to bring those people, whether it be in court or whether it be adjudication, whether it be the misdemeanor court, municipal court or somewhere else that they're going to, as Councilman Kenney has noted, they're going to have to take a day off. They're going to have to come down here. They're going to have to pay for parking and everything else. So be it. 46 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 I think you have to tell these people and send them a message. I don't see that happening here. I see it's a piece of paper, they get it, they just ignore it, they could careless. And if they get many of them, who cares. No one's knocking on their doors and they can't do anything to them. I'm just throwing that out as something that maybe this Committee could look at see and to see if we can take some steps to increase the cost and increase the fines to make sure there's going to be a strict enforcement to get these people to condone better behavior than what they've been showing in the past.
I believe the fine structure escalates within a certain period of time if you have numerous violations. The first violation, I believe, is 25. If you have a second one within a certain period of time, I believe it goes up and up. I just have to caveat everything else. We've just gotten, as the Police Department, into enforcing this noise 47 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 ordinance. I mean, we're still trying to work the bugs out between ourselves. So it's not like we've been doing this for years. 5
I'm not blaming 6 the Police Department. I think the Police 7 Department can do the job, but I'm thinking of 8 the backing, this system that's going to back 9 them up, the system that's going to get these 10 people to really watch what they're doing and to change their pattern of behavior. And I don't see that here, I really don't. I don't know if there's anyone here from the court system or what, but I don't see anything being done to really prevent this.
I honestly believe once the citations start to come out, it will have an impact.
It really should be publicized more about this noise ordinance.
Well, quite frankly, we're still working the bugs out how to get this thing off the ground and running. This is relatively new to us. We weren't in the 48 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 business of noise meters or anything like that. Yes, we're not off the ground a hundred percent running.
No other questions for this witness, let's go to the Health Department. Say your name for the record.
Good afternoon, Councilpersons DiCicco and Krajewski and Members of the Committee Licenses and Inspections. I am Roger Fay, Engineering Supervisor, Air Management Services, Philadelphia Department of Public Health. " 49 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 In accordance, Chapter 10-400 Section 10-405 and 10-406, the Department of Public Health has a responsibility for the administration and enforcement of this chapter 6 and the regulations promulgated under it. While the Departments of Health, Licenses and Inspections and the Police Department share the authority to issue tickets for violations in residential districts. The intent of Chapter 10-400 was created to regulate various types of noise sources, the individuals or industries that generate them and address the corresponding effects these noises have on the community. The proposed amendments to Chapter 17 10-404, Paragraph 5 of the Code is a major change from the industry specific regulatory approach of the noise and excessive vibration regulations to a blanket application of noise generation to a 3 decibel limit above background level beyond the property boundary of such premises or automobile at a distance 100 feet from the property boundary of such premises in both residential and commercial 50 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 districts. More significantly, the proposed amendment changes the location at which sounds are measured for compliance from the point of complaint origin to beyond the property boundary of a premises, with the exception of amplified sound. Implementation of the proposed changes would have an immediate and radical effect on the compliance status of numerous commercial businesses that are currently in compliance. Many commercial businesses, for example, that have air conditioning or refrigeration equipment will be significantly impacted by this change to the Code even though there may be little or no current impact on residential communities. To be more specific, the current regulations has a limit of 15 decibels above background level at the point of complaint origin. But with this amendment, the limit will be reduced to 3 decibels above background and will be determined at the business' property line. Please be advised that even though it may appear to be only 12 decibel 51 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 reduction, every decibel change is a 3 doubling of sound energy. As a result, a 12 decibel reduction is an 800 percent reduction of the limit. Another technical concern of the proposed amendment is the use of the term "background level" in Paragraph 5 of Chapter 9 10-404. That is part of the stated 3 DBA limit beyond the property boundary of a premises. The term "background level" is not defined in Chapter 10-402 nor is it explained how this level is to be measured in any part of the Code. Another area of significant impact of the proposed amendments to the Code is that they do not provide for nor address specific noise exemptions that are listed in Section 4 of the noise and excessive vibration regulations. The exemptions in this section 21 of the regulations include the unamplified human voice, aircraft and airport operations and railway locomotives and cars. These exemptions may have a significant impact on the compliance status of SEPTA and Amtrak 52 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 rights-of-way, the City's airports, and the cheering heard at the property line of the Palaestra or Lincoln Financial Field. These amendments also do not provide exemptions for construction projects of critical importance for the City of Philadelphia that require work beyond the current hours listed. The construction of the proposed high-rise One Pennsylvania Plaza requires a 24-hour operation due to the inherent design of the concrete core. And emergency utility repair construction projects also take place on a 24-hour basis. m. m.
From an implementation perspective, one of the more significant effects of the proposed amendment would be the need for additional resources due to a more stringent across-the-board compliance level of 3DB above background level. 53 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 In summary, while the intent of these proposed changes to the Code are commendable, the Department of Public Health respectfully recommend a more in depth analysis and technical study on how the desired outcomes can be achieved without potentially place many non-disturbing residences and businesses in an (all tive) CK status. An industry-specific regulation has the advantage of addressing community and business concerns in a more efficient manner compared to across the board 3 DB above background at the property line limit. This concludes testimony for the Department of Public Health. Thank you for the opportunity to present testimony today. I will now answer questions.
Do we have any questions from the Committee for this witness. Councilman DiCicco.
Thank you for your testimony. You are obviously suggesting that we hold this bill until further discussion or recommendations come forward; is 54 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 that correct?
Do you have anything as of today to recommend to this Committee? Or is this something you just need a lot more -- how much more time do you think you would need? You talk about industry standards. Can you explain what industry standards means? I mean, are you talking strictly about how we can remove or not penalize certain types of activities which you mentioned in your testimony, construction work, and things of that nature and not fall within that 3 decibels? I can understand that from a technical standard. I just don't think from practical standpoint that anybody's going to write a citation up to a company or an individual who's operating a crane on a construction site. I just don't see that happening. And I think we're tending to get a little bit too technical about this. I'm willing to at least hear what your recommendations are, because we have to do 55 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 something about this noise. And I think you know, as you said, you understand what the intent was. But I don't want to just study this thing to death either. There has to be some conclusion to what we find. And reasonable people would understand that when you're jackhammering up the street because you have a water main break that no one's going to write a citation to the Philadelphia Water Department or to a plumber because they were jackhammering a hole in the street. I just don't see that happening. And if it did. It just wouldn't -- no pun intended -- hold any water in a court. So I need something a little more specific from you. And I'm only a co-sponsor. Councilwoman Krajewski sponsored the bill. I'd be willing to wait a couple weeks for any recommendation. I need my colleague to agree to that. Councilwoman, they're asking for a little bit because they think that some of the language in here is too broad that it would even create a situation where construction work would actually fall within the 3 decibel, 56 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 25 feet or whatever threshold we have in this bill. I don't think anybody's ever going to write a citation, but I think I understand where they're coming from and maybe we can work this out and clean it up in a way that we can exempt certain types of operations.
I'll be glad to work with you, Councilman, together on this. Absolutely.
Sounds like a plan. We'll move on to the next bill. These witnesses are dismissed. You don't have anything else, do you?
Did I tell you about the one next door to me that kept me awake last night? It's a little dog.
If it barks longer than 15 57 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 minutes in any one hour, that's a violation
Can I call you at home at night? Can you give me your cell phone?
If I'm on standby that night, you're more than welcome to call the dispatcher.
He only wants one thing, he wants to come back in the house. I know what he wants. They put him out and he barks until they bring him back in. But with the nice weather, the window's open.
There is a section of the Health Department that does handle barking dogs, the Animal Control Unit. They handle those complaints and there is a regulation governing those.
And they come out that exact hour we call, right? Even if you're not Councilman, they'll come right out with their meter and talk to the dog?
Try getting 58 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 them out. You can't get them at night. And I love the animal control people. They try. My son got his dog there, but you can't get anybody after 5 o'clock at night if you don't know who to call, just City Hall operator. I usually say I'm Councilman Rizzo and then they get on it.
Mr. Chairman, can I follow-up seriously on that. Most of these -- correct me if I'm wrong. Most of these dog barking issues aren't just one night, they're repetitive, they're like every night of the week? And I think that when you report it, you might report it on a Monday and if they get there Friday they'll find that same little dog barking away. But if I lived next door to Mariano, I would bark too. (Laughter.)
If you lived next door to Rick Mariano, the prices of the houses would go up higher than they ever -- Thank you. Anything else? 59 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432
One additional thing Chairman Mayor. With regard to the way Code is currently written in residential areas, the police officers don't need an actual sound meter if you take the other portion of Paragraph 5 which is "Audible at a distance that's greater than a hundred feet." That's something we could consider as well for enforcement.
I have one question. If the Police Department responds to the barking dog, obviously at 3:00 in the morning, we make the report --
Not in my neighborhood you're not coming 3:00 in the morning.
If the dog is barking eight hours, we'll get there eventually.
Well, in the case that I mentioned to you earlier, the person goes out to work in the morning, say, around 7:30.
My question is to the 60 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 Health Department. If we did our 48 and indicate the dog did bark for an excess of 4 minutes in an hour, would you be able to issue 5 a citation based on our report. 6
I believe so. But that's, 7 again, handled by the Animal Control Unit, and 8 they would be the people to contact. 9
Fran, just think 12 how effective it would be if the dog is 13 barking 3:00 in the morning and the owner came 14 down that next morning and there was a ticket 15 in the mailbox as opposed to your report to that agency. Or if the person leaves and goes to work and the dog barks all day, when they came home at night and they open their front door and there's a ticket sitting in the hallway, don't you thing they'll say, "Wait a minute, I've got to do something about this dog, I've got to get rid of this dog, I've got to do something with it"? You think that that person's going to take the time to take that ticket and say, 61 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432 "I'm going to litigate this because they didn't point that gun at my house and check the decibel level." No. They're going to say, "I don't want to get a ticket." People don't like getting tickets. They hate getting tickets. It drives them crazy. Either they'll pay it to get it of their books or they will do something to change it. And I think that's more effective than --
Councilman, you're preaching to the choir. I'd love that. Our officers don't issue Code violation notices.
What is the ticket they issue for the decibel violation on the gun, the trained guy or woman who uses the gun?
Yes, they're trained. The average officer doesn't issue Code violation notices. We issue traffic citations -- 62 10/07/04 - LICENSES - BILL 040432
That would be a Code violation and they're trained to do that.
What will you be trained on, to fill out a different form? They fill out a 48 or they fill out ticket or they fill out --
The violation here is a regulation, if I'm not correct. Our police officers don't know what regulation it is.