Aye. The ayes are 17, the nays are 0. A majority of all Members having voted in the affirmative, the bill passes. The next bill to be called for consideration is bill 040996.
The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown. 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING
Thank you, Madam President. I would like to speak briefly on this bill.
The Clerk will please read the title of the bill.
An ordinance repealing Chapter 10-1200 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "Posting of Temporary Signs," and adopting a new Chapter 10-1200, entitled "Posting of Signs."
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Thank you, Madam President. I consider this bill to be a freedom of speech issue. Outside of West Philadelphia in 1995, no one new Blondell Reynolds Brown. Posters help this first-time candidate to essentially get my face and name throughout the City for a sixth place finish in 1995. In 1999, I came in one of the top five in the primary. A principal reason for that is success was the visibility campaign 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING arrived through postering. I recognize this bill is not aimed at me or any particular person or particularly eager first-time candidates. However, if the rules are followed and enforced, campaign signs should not be a real problem. The record should show that I take down all my signs within 30 days of the election and most often get them down within seven days. I repeat, it is a freedom of speech issue. It is helping a first-time candidate issue. The sponsor of this bill is a friend, and we talked about this bill ad nauseam. I understand what he is trying to do and I believe his reasoning has merit; however, I feel ultimately enforcement is the best answer to this problem, Madam President. And I will respectfully be voting no on this bill.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano.
Thank you, 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING Madam President. I would like to say that my colleague Councilwoman Brown, we did speak about this, and this has nothing to do with stifling anybody's first amendment rights. She's going to believe what she wants to believe, and I'm going to believe what I want to believe, and the people in here will vote the way they need to vote. It is strictly a form of graffiti. I mean, we had hearings in here about people scratching on people's windows, etching or something like that they called it, and we spent lots of time. It's just another form of graffiti. We have people in here that champion causes that are near and dear to their hearts. This is one that's near and dear to my heart because -- I also challenged a councilman and won a first time, an incumbent councilman in a district where there was a different councilman every time after Harry Ginotty left. And I do believe signs are an important part of political process, but they need to be in the windows, they need to be in storefronts, they need to by in 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING people that want to support us, not on Public utility bills. This gets into weight loss reduction, computer fixing, everything. It's just another from of graffiti and I would like everyone to try to support this, but we're going to have to vote our heart. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. I haven't said anything on this issue, although I agree -- and I won't vote against my colleague Councilman Mariano, but I would like to meet with both Councilman Mariano and Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds to see if we can come up with something that maybe works in my district that may not be the same as in his district. Certainly, in the district I represent, it's fine. We don't have -- I understand what he's saying about graffiti. We get out signs down. I mean, we had issues even with posting a sign because, you know, we 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING don't have big areas where we can post signs. If people can't put them on poles -- you can't do trees. Obviously, you can't do trees environmentally. It limits people's ability to be able to campaign. I try to support my colleagues. As I said, we have a joke going around in my district where we call some signs lot signs because we don't have lawns in all areas of the district, and we call them lot signs and we talk about where we can post them. But I do believe that maybe one rule doesn't fit all, and I would like us to come up with something that maybe works for my area that may not work for another area. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.
Thank you, Madam President, I was the only Councilmember, maybe the only public official, who testified at federal court against the original bill. It passed at Councilman Mariano's request I think 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING 16 to 1 before. I'm told by the legal scholars who addressed the first bill that this bill may very well also be unconstitutional generally on the same grounds as being over-broad. I, therefore, would support Councilwoman Blackwell's approach that let's get together and see if something workable can be worked out. If not, we'll ultimately goat to court again. But if Councilman Mariano insists on a vote today, I will join happily to vote against the bill because I think it is a bill intended to make it safe for incumbents. And when incumbents are safe, then the people suffer in the City. Incumbents have to worry that their actions are being examined by the citizenry and that if they don't do well, if they don't represent their people well, there may be a threat. I see no good to come from a bill making it safe for incumbents who have power to continue to wield it permanently. And that's the reason I feel this way. But if we can accommodate each other's desires, that would be good. But we could use the time at the recess to work at 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING that. But if not, I will be voting no on the bill.
Thank you, sir. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano.
I probably should have said this at first, Council President. The judge that ruled in the case that Councilman Cohen is referring to has told the Law Department. The Law Department informed myself and my legislative aid that if we don't do this thing today, that we can't do it next year. He gave us a time limit, if I'm quoting him right. I'm not an attorney, don't want to be an attorney, never wanted to be an attorney, and don't really even like attorneys. But I want to say that -- with the exception of Councilman O'Neill. I just want to say that we're only doing it today -- I would love to compromise, Councilman. I know you're going to challenge this bill and you should if that's what's in your heart of hearts. And I would love to 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING work with Councilwoman Blackwell, but the smart guys tell this dumb guy that we've got to vote on it today. So we vote it and see what happens.
May I ask what the reasoning is for it to be voted on today?
I've been a little out of commission for about a week, but Mr. Lisko can tell me that the judge told us -
The judge has given us to the end of the year to bring this up to make it constitutional. Without doing that, it's going to start an entire legal process that the Law Department has advised us would just cost money. It was their opinion that we could take car of this with the bill that we introduced.
And I would also say, Council President, that I'm not about protecting incumbents. There are some incumbents that probably shouldn't be in here. So people probably think I shouldn't be in 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING here. We'll be able to do what we can do with signs however we want. It's very simple; you vote for it or you don't. No one has to vote for it because they want to vote for it to protect me or do anything. I believe if we hold it, I certainly would.
Thank you. Does anyone else want to be recognized on this issue? Councilman Cohen.
I can't make out what Councilman Mariano is referring to. The judge could not have given you a legal opinion as to what the legal effect would be if a change were made or not made because that, at most, could be an advisory opinion would not have the force of law. I'm told by the attorneys that started the original case that they have studied this. They feel that such a law, as the one Councilman Mariano proposes, would bring about the same kind of problems before. I think we ought to take some time over the winter holiday season to study it, and then 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING Mr. Mariano can do what he wants. And from my part, I can do what I want. But I think it always pays to trying to work out something where both sides is willing to do it. Now, I'm requesting Councilman Mariano to agree as Councilman DiCicco did. Councilman DiCicco is a tough guy to get to agree to anything, but he final saw it's better to agree to be reasonable than to fight it out two or three times. And I would like to request Councilman Mariano to hold the bill, see what we can do over the holiday season. If not, he's free always to come back again and I will be free to attack it again if I believe it's necessary to attack. But I would hope we could come to an agreement.
Thank you, Councilman. The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.
But please be reasonable. 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING
I will try to do that as well. I was not even going to engage in this discussion. I know how I was voting. I was actually voting in favor and I still intend to vote in favor of this bill. As many of you may recall, I attempted to do this several years ago. I think it was back in '97, and we had some -we had public hearings. In fact, I recall there was a gentleman who came in from California because I got the idea on this ban from the county of Los Angeles. And the case went up to the United States Supreme Court, if memory serves me correct, and the Supreme Court ruled that it is not unconstitutional to impose such prohibitions because there are other means or medias for advertising. I just think it's one of those situations -- and with all due respect to my colleagues and I understand your concern for allowing other folks who are not incumbents to have an opportunity, if you will, to get their name out there so they can get some 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING recognition and hopefully get themselves re-elected. The problem, as I see it, is just as Councilman Mariano said, it's just another form of graffiti. I refer to it as visual graffiti. And I also find it strange that there are some people in here today who are fighting for the right to be able to advertise, but these are the same folks who have been very vocal and boisterous in their opposition to billboards and other types of advertising that I think are important to the economic development of the City. And public toilets, as an example, one of the reasons we still do not have public toilets in the City of Philadelphia is because public toilets will require a certain amount of advertising to be placed on the facility. But for the advertising, we would have public toilets. So, you know, again, it's a case where we want it both ways sometimes. And I think in this case, with all due respect to future candidates -- I know my Councilman Kenney when I was campaigning with him in 1991, did not 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING put up a single poster on any pole, tree, or other building in the entire City of Philadelphia. And I think he came in first or second City wide. For me, a person who is going to support me would be willing to put their poster in their home window or in a storefront is really what it's all about. These posters, unfortunately, L&I has many other important things to do. They're never able to enforce it. We keep saying, "Let's hold off and maybe we can get it right." In my experience from 1997 until this present day, we still haven't been able to get it right. There are Bush signs. There are Kerry signs. There are signs up from this past election and probably from the Primary. If you go out to the suburbs on the other side in City line no matter what point that surrounds the City of Philadelphia and you spend a half hour there and come back, you know when you're in Philadelphia, not because the sign says "Welcome to Philadelphia," you can tell by the signs and posters that are stuck on poles, trees, you name it. The 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING suburbs don't allow it. I don't know why we can't do the same thing. There are other mediums for advertising. We live in an electronic age. And it's not all that expensive to do some of those other forms of advertising. So I'm in full support of this bill, and I've waited since 1997 for this, so I don't think we need wait any longer. Thank you, Madam President.
Councilman, I would just like to add some very brief remarks to what you've said because I remember years ago many people were trying to address this very issue. I don't recall what year it was. But if you were going to put up posters, you had to get disks from L&I. Does anybody remember that? And we had to pay for them. It's a sticker. We had to pay for them. We actually pass bills, but they were never enforced. And I think it's just gotten very out of hand; it really has.
If I can just follow up on that, Madam President. Again, my comment about we want it both ways is, it's 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING okay to keep political posters up, but yet we get very upset when we see -- I think Councilman Mariano may have pointed it out, the weight loss stuff, the computers, call this number, if you have furniture for sale. We're a lot more aggressive in that type of enforcement. But when it comes to politicians and people like ourselves, you know, we're the incumbents. People look to us for leadership. And I think this is a great opportunity to show the citizens of this City that we're willing to restrain ourselves from putting our faces on posters and putting poles and trees throughout the City in the interest of making the City a much more cleaner place. And one more thought that just came to mind. When I had those hearings in '97, I think the gentleman who came in from Los Angeles said that they did a survey of the major cities throughout this country, Philadelphia has the distinction of being the City with the most posters throughout the entire country. And again, it's visual graffiti. 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING And for those posters that eventually come down, either because someone's opponent tore them down or the weather, they wind up in street. They clog up the sewers. Sanitation employees have to go out and clean it up. The taxpayers are literally footing the bill to remove it regardless of whether the candidate does what they're supposed to do and applies for the stickers and removes them. I mean, theoretically, if you follow the rules and you don't put up a poster but for 30 days prior to the election, they give you 30 days to remove it. The posters are up for 60 days in the Primary and 60 days for the General Election following the 30-day rule before they can go up. So for four months of the year, if you're following the rules, we have this visual graffiti in our faces at a minimum of four months a year. Thank you.
Thank you, Councilman. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke. 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING
Thank you, Madam President. Madam President, in the earlier version of the bill, and we were discussing this a year or two ago, I had some concern about placing the posters, primarily the issue Councilwoman Brown spoke of, essentially not allowing a challenger, particularly a challenger who had limited resources to be able to advertise themselves. I know there's some question as to whether or not that really enhances your chances of winning. Some people think it does, some people think it doesn't. But the reality is that every time I ride up North Broad Street and every time there's an album released, these poles are plastered with signs. I mean, it's ridiculous. And the reality is that there's limited opportunity to basically enforce it because we don't have a clue as to who actually placed the signs other than the particular artist who they're advertising, but there's no reference to where it came from. As opposed to when elected officials at a minimum you have friends of and I think we're pretty easy to find to determine 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING who in fact is placing those posters up. So while I do have some concerns about limiting the ability of a challenger -frankly speaking, I always welcome a challenge. I think it keeps your skills sharp. I think we have to look at the reality of what's going on on these poles throughout our City. I think about the fact in approximately three months we're going to be implement a $12 million Admiral to Arsenal Broad streetscape where we will be placing new poles up on North Broad Street. And I shutter with the thought that immediately they will be plastered with these stickers, the glue and all of that that, frankly speaking, damages these things permanently. So although I am concerned about the political implications as it relates to challengers, I think that overall we rally need to do something about the proliferation of posters on our utility poles.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell. 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING
Thank you, Madam President. I appreciate all that my colleagues have said. Frankly, I like the fact that our City doesn't look like the suburbs. I love our City. The people in my district like to see signs up from candidates who are running for offices. It's one of the ways they know running. It's one of the ways that they know that we are interested and that we want their vote. Certainly, I respect all that has been said here today I agree with Councilman DiCicco that we did ourselves a disservice when we didn't do the portable toilets. Maybe one day we will get to that point where we will. I supported my colleagues when we dealt with these big posters, overhead posters. I don't have very many in my district. So I support those who do have that problem and we respect one another in terms of what works. But for me, I think posters are great. And I will not vote against my colleague today, but I will over the holiday look at ways that maybe I can just exempt myself from some of 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING this. Again, we respect trees. I have University City and our folks would really be upset if we put posters on trees. But saying that, utility poles and all that works well for me. But again, I believe I'm in the minority where my colleagues are concerned. So I don't want to be offensive. I'll look at something maybe will just work for me, and I'll respect the rights of everyone else. Thank you.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman O'Neill.
Madam Chair, thank you. I would just like to say that while Councilman Mariano mentioned that he wasn't a lawyer, as if we have that announced, and that he doesn't like most lawyers, which I'm glad I'm not one of them, I really think we ought to recognize and applaud his efforts to work closely with the Law Department to make sure that this bill has the best chance and highest recommendation from the Law Department that it will pass constitutional 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING muster. This is not something where he's just pushing a bill back again, but spent a lot of time and a lot of effort working with people who do know the law, who are constitutional experts, and I think we all should support him in doing that regardless of our positions on the first amendment. We rely on the Law Department in this City for those kinds of judgments, especially when they've been involved in a federal case involving this very issue. So I'd like to personally thank him, and I will be supporting the bill. Thank you.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam President. I am somewhat intrigued by this issue of timing with regard to the legislation. I had not heard of anything like that before, so I'd like to inquire through the Chair if I might be able to ask Councilman Mariano some questions.
Councilman 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING Mariano.
Madam President, I recall the previous bill having gone to court, and I thought that the Court struck the matter down. So therefore, I'm not completely understanding why there is continued court activity with regard to this matter. Or is there some other matter before the court unrelated to the first bill in this subject matter. So I need to ask the Councilman why are we in court in the first place?
Councilman, through the magic of this wonderful blackberry that we all know about through reading the paper in the last couple years in Philadelphia, the lawsuit was from the ACLU, and the case is on hold until December the 16th, which is today. Now, there's a preliminary injunction in part of the ACLU's 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING lawsuit and is against parts the bill. If there is no action taken today, the case is revived. So by not voting on this -
Who else is -- I mean, the ACLU by themselves filed this suit against the City?
So there's present litigation against the current provisions in the Philadelphia Code?
Filed by the ACLU and other parties, one of whom is Councilman Cohen?
Is a party of a suit against the City regarding the current -
The bill that I sponsored that this body passed. And we're 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING appealing that decision.
Like Councilman O'Neill said, by working with the Law Department, this is where the Law Department has it. They said if we don't do this to today, there will actually be two lawsuits. It seems to me in my un-legal mind that the judge wanted us to try to work something out, and this is how we're working it out. That's my unofficial opinion.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen. Councilman Cohen, your light is on. Did you want to be recognized?
Yes. All I'm interested in doing is I don't think we should look as if we're hunkered down in defense in the foxholes and we're so afraid of our records --as Councilmembers, maybe we ought to be, but I don't think we ought to admit even 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING if we're afraid of our records, and therefore we're going to fight to keep everybody else from running. People who want to run for office are going to use the poles anyway, no matter what we do. And the effort last time was to try to get to a system whereby the number of signs might be reduced. And the really atrocious signs are the signs that advertise expert typewriter repairs or paint your house all over again or avoid painting your house, whatever they want. Now, the courts have held that you have to use one standard for all signs. We hope by regulating them that we could begin to control them. I think we were, in part, successful. But it wasn't enough for Councilman Mariano because he wants to do the impossible. He wants to clean up the poles so that they're never used, and that's not going to happen because you have no such control. Actually, the case was brought about, Councilman Mariano, by a woman who posted a sign against the death penalty. 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING That's what started the last case. It wasn't a political sign, it wasn't a sign for repairs to a house. And so that's why I think people in Councilwoman Blackwell's area feel so strongly that people ought to be able to post their signs. This is the home where democracy was born. This is how the United States got born by people posting signs and talking when it was against the law in Great Britain. So for God sake, why are we ashamed of our background? We ought to be proud of it. We ought to say is Philadelphia known because in Philadelphia anybody can distribute whatever they want and let the best arguments win out ultimately. Now, if you want to be persistent, you can pass this bill. And you're going to find two things. The number of signs being posted is going to increase, and you're going to find, secondly, that you have no control and the City will be here telling you that if you want the sign law enforced, you've got to appropriate several additional millions f dollars, because in a free society, you can't 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING control people that way. You know that you can't control them. If somebody feels strongly about an idea, they're going to present a sign on it. And where they're going to do it, the only place that's free. They can't afford to pay to put an advertisement in the newspaper or magazine, they're going to use the electric pole to do it or telephone pole. So I think we ought to be proud of our heritage as a place where anybody can talk about anything and feel free to do that because that's what America -- that's how we were born and what we boast about. When we boast about anything, we boast about how democratic we are, but in practice many of us don't seem to be very democratic. And I mean a small "d" this time, not the capital D representing the Democratic Party. So I'm urging my colleagues to vote no. But if not, we've got to go through the round again, you can be sure I'll be testifying in court the same way I did before and I think we're going to defeat this bill 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING because I think it is unconstitutional.
Thank you, Councilman. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kelly.
Thank you, Madam President. I just have a quick question to the sponsor of the bill, if I may. It's just a friendly question. I am not a nasty lawyer. I'm not going to put him under the hot seat today. I just want to ask if this bill includes lawn signs? Because there are many, many areas, green areas in the Northeast and probably Roxborough, Chestnut Hill and whatever, they're inundated sometimes with 200 to 300 lawn signs in probably a very small area, public areas
Thank you, Councilman. I think those signs are already illegal, but I'm not sure if that's in this 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING bill. I would suspect that if it's public property, they would be illegal with this bill. And I want to call for the previous question, but before I do, I just want to thank Councilman Cohen for all his help. This is genuine. He really means this. I really mean this. I know Councilman DiCicco and Councilman Kenney and O'Neill and everyone else who spoke, to us, this is a blight. Believe me, none of us, none of us want to thwart anyone running against us. None of us want to go against anyone against the death penalty. It just makes a lot easier for L&I to enforce if there are no signs, if there are no signs whatsoever. If that lady can't put that death penalty sign up, then I shouldn't be able to put my picture on a pole every four years. That's what it's all about. If my constituents and people that would support me or Councilman DiCicco want to put it in their window of their store or house, fine. Believe me, nobody wants to thwart anybody. In fact, I encourage the process, run against us, run 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING against me, do it. It makes for a better democracy. And since we're all talking about democracy, we're at Christmas, we're all about democracy here. We're all about not just being Democrats or Republicans, letting everyone be heard. It's just something that doesn't work well in a municipality this size that's been called filty-delphia, and we all know the trash problems. It's just another form of visual graffiti, like my good friend Councilman DiCicco said. So I call for the previous question. Let's end this pain and vote on it. Thank you.
There are other Councilmembers who have not had an opportunity to be heard. Can we just move forward or do you want to be heard? Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you, Madam President. Madam President, I think it's unfortunate that the political signs are getting caught up in this, but they have to be 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING treated like the other signs. And I can tell you coming from the utility industry, first of all, it's not appropriate or legal to put signs on at least the energy company's poles. I know of personally many employees that have been seriously injured trying to work around some of these signs. They start out this big, then they get this big, and then they wind up being by signs placed on the poles. So I plan to be supportive of this. But I can tell you it's dangerous, not only ugly, it's be responsible for the injury of a lot utility workers throughout the years, signs that have been attached especially to the energy company's utility poles you.
Very briefly. I had my light on, I had my light off, I had my light on, I had my light off. From my constituents' point of view, they want the sign bill because I get calls all the time. And when I attend meetings, they want to take some of these advertising signs down. And I 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING have one community who has a committee, they go out and take the signs down and they ask me about it. I try and tell them about the lawsuit. On the other hand, I understand about the political signs. People do like to see the signs. They say, "Well, I saw you on the poster." That doesn't necessarily mean you get elected because posters. That's just one facet of winning an election. So I'm conflicted. But I hope after we go through this that we would probably find some way to resolve this issue, but it does cut down on the clutter because I'm always taking down the signs outside of my house. So, Councilman Mariano, I'll vote with you, when I first told you I wasn't. I'm now going to -- I may not when I get to my name. I don't know.
This bill having been read on two different days, the question now is shall the bill pass finally. The Clerk will please call the roll.
Aye. The ayes are 14, the nays are 3. A majority of all Members having voted in the affirmative, the bill passes. The next bill to be called for consideration is Bill No. 040998.
An ordinance amending Title 4, Subcode A, Section A506 entitled "Code Violation Notices, by providing for a new amount to be remitted in response to a code violation notice
This bill having been read on two different days, the question now is shall the bill pass finally. The Clerk will please call the roll. 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING
Aye. The ayes are 17, the nays are 0. A majority of all Members having voted in the affirmative, the bill passes. The next bill to be called for consideration is Bill No. 041037.
An ordinance authorizing the President of the Fairmount Park Commission, the Executive Director of Fairmount Park, and the Public Property Commissioner on behalf of the City of Philadelphia to enter into a ground lease with the School District of Philadelphia under which the School District will lease from the 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING City certain land in West Fairmount Park
This bill having been read on two different days, the question now is shall the bill pass finally. The Clerk will please call the roll.
Aye. The ayes are 17, the nays are 0. A majority of all Members having voted in the affirmative, the bill passes. The final bill to be called for consideration is bill 041038.
An ordinance authorizing the Commissioner of Public Property on behalf of the City of Philadelphia to accept a deed 12/16/01 - STATED - 2ND READING from the School District of Philadelphia for that certain parcel of land commonly known as 8730 Old Lion Road.
This bill having been read on two different days, the question now is shall the bill pass finally. The Clerk will please call the roll.