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Minutes

Committee Hearing, February 1, 2006

Philadelphia City Council Committee HearingsFeb 1, 2006

People mentioned

Names our system found in this transcript. Automatically extracted, so it can include anyone named in the record, not only officials or parties.

  • Brian O'Neill

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON RULES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, February 1, 2006 11:40 a.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN BILL 051232 - An ordinance to amend the Philadelphia Zoning Maps by changing the zoning designations of certain areas of land located within an area bounded by Parkside Avenue, 50th Street, a railroad right-of-way... BILL 051233 - An ordinance approving the second amendment of the redevelopment proposal for the West Parkside Urban Renewal Area... BILL 051143 - An ordinance amending Section 19 10-112 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Keeping Farm Animals," by deleting... - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2

Council President Verna

Again, I welcome everyone to this public hearing on the Committee of the Rules. I would like the record to reflect that we have a quorum. To my immediate left is Councilwoman Blackwell. To her left is Councilwoman Brown. To my immediate right is Councilman Kelly, and Councilman Clarke is also in attendance. I would ask Mr. Murray to please read the title of Bill No. 051232.

Ms. Murray

Bill No. 051232, an ordinance to amend the Philadelphia Zoning Maps by changing the zoning designations of certain areas of land located within an area bounded by Parkside Avenue, 50th Street, a railroad right-of-way, 52nd Street, Columbia Avenue and 51st Street.

Council President Verna

May I ask City Planning to please come up to testify. Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record. 3 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Mr. Gregorski

Good morning, Madam President and members of the Rules Committee. My name is Martin Gregorski. I'm a Zoning Planner in the Development Planning Division of the City Planning Commission. I am here today to testify on Bill No. 051232. Bill No. 051232 was introduced by Councilmember Nutter on December 22nd, the year 2005. This bill rezones an area bounded by Parkside Avenue, 50th Street, a railroad right-of-way, 52nd Street, Columbia Avenue and 51st Street. The purpose of this bill is to rezone approximately 30 acres of land from a zoning designation of partly L-3 Limited Industrial, partly L-5 Limited Industrial, partly G-2 General Industrial, partly C-1 Commercial, partly R-9A Residential, partly R-9 Residential and partly ASC Area Shopping Center to a designation of partly L-3 Limited Industrial, partly L-5 Limited Industrial, partly G-2 General Industrial 4 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. and partly Area Shopping Center, ASC, in order to allow the development of a new shopping center. The Planning Commission at its meeting of March 10, 2005 considered and approved this item as an amendment to the Parkside-Lancaster Redevelopment Area plan, changing the proposed land use to Commercial and a redevelopment proposal for the acquisition of 55 properties. Accordingly, this bill is consistent with the previous policy of the Planning Commission and we recommend that it be approved. I'll be happy to answer any questions of the Committee.

Council President Verna

Thank you very much. According to your testimony, the City Planning approved the redevelopment proposal that would authorize the acquisition of 55 properties.

Mr. Gregorski

That's correct. 5 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Council President Verna

The bill that we will consider very shortly approves the acquisition of only ten properties. Will the Planning Commission have to approve a new development proposal?

Mr. Gregorski

That, I do not know. I'd have to check on that. I'm really not sure.

Council President Verna

Is somebody here that could address that issue?

Mr. Redding

Good morning, Madam President.

Council President Verna

Good morning.

Mr. Redding

And members of the Committee. I'm Richard Redding, Acting Director, Community Planning Division at the Philadelphia City Planning Commission. Could you repeat the question one more time, please?

Council President Verna

6 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. Certainly. I said according to testimony that we heard, the Planning Commission approved a redevelopment proposal that would authorize the acquisition of 55 properties. The bill that we will consider very shortly approves the acquisition of only ten properties. Will the Planning Commission have to approve a new development proposal?

Mr. Redding

Madam President, the answer is no. The authorization for 55 properties gives us the ability, if needed, to acquire buildings in a given area. Many of those properties were able to be purchased through private means, and the ten is the only portion of the 55 that will be necessary. Additional acquisitions will not be needed to be authorized. And this is for the expansion of the shopping center site in the West Parkside community.

Council President Verna

Fine. Thank you very much. Any questions from members of 7 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. the Committee? (No response.)

Council President Verna

Gentlemen, thank you.

Mr. Gregorski

Thank you.

Council President Verna

Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)

Council President Verna

Seeing no one, I would ask Ms. Murray to please read the title of Bill No. 051233.

Ms. Murray

Bill No. 051233, an ordinance approving the second amendment of the redevelopment proposal for the West Parkside Urban Renewal Area, being the area generally bounded by Parkside Avenue on the north, Belmont Avenue and Girard Avenue on the east, Lancaster Avenue on the south, 52nd Street and the Pennsylvania Central Railroad Line on the west, including the second amendment to the urban renewal plan and the first amendment to the relocation plan, which provides, inter 8 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. alia, for the additional land acquisition of approximately ten properties for commercial and related uses; the provision of certain relocation services, as required by law; and declaring that condemnation is not imminent with respect to the Project.

Council President Verna

Thank you. Mr. Wetzel, are you going to testify? Good afternoon.

Mr. Wetzel

Hello. How are you this morning?

Council President Verna

It is afternoon; is it not?

Mr. Wetzel

Or afternoon. It's getting very close. My name is Herbert Wetzel. I'm Executive Director of the Redevelopment Authority of the City of Philadelphia. Madam Chairperson and members of the Committee, I'm here to speak in support of Bill No. 051233, which is the 9 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. second amendment of the redevelopment proposal and the third amendment of the urban renewal plan for the 44th and Aspen Urban Renewal Areas. The bill authorizes the Redevelopment Authority to acquire ten vacant structures and lots in the Parkside-Lancaster Redevelopment Area, West Parkside Urban Renewal Area for commercial development. These properties will be assembled with others that have been purchased privately by the Goldenberg Management, Inc. for the new construction of a retail center that will include approximately 306,000 square feet of retail space. The shopping center will be anchored by a Lowe's Home Improvement Center. Goldenberg Management, Inc. has entered into a Non-Assistance Agreement with the Redevelopment Authority that will require the Goldenberg Management, Inc. to reimburse all direct and indirect 10 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. costs incurred by the Authority throughout this project. The estimated acquisition costs are $782,000. The properties to be acquired under this plan are within the project footprint and will be used for commercial and related development. Madam Chairperson and members of the Committee, I respectfully request favorable consideration of Bill No. 12 051233 and also would ask for the suspension of Council rules to allow first reading on February 2, 2006.

Council President Verna

Mr. Wetzel, what did you say the estimated cost of this acquisition was?

Mr. Wetzel

It's $782,000. That includes the 35 percent contingency for payment in court and other additional contingencies, advertising and other related costs.

Council President Verna

Can you tell us what the source of funds for the acquisition is? 11 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Mr. Wetzel

Yes. The source of funds is the Goldenberg Management, Inc. They are providing all the funds necessary for the acquisition.

Council President Verna

Can you tell us how the acquisition funds will be recycled?

Mr. Wetzel

These would not -- unless there are tax delinquent properties, and if there are tax delinquent properties here that are being acquired, then the City will go in and claim either at settlement with the owner or if we pay into court, the City will claim any liens and judgments that it has on these properties, and then those funds are available to the City of Philadelphia.

Council President Verna

I guess we're assuming that none of the properties are occupied.

Mr. Wetzel

To our knowledge, there are seven vacant structures and three vacant lots. 12 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Council President Verna

Thank you. Any questions from members of the Committee? The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Thank you. When you say acquisition is not imminent, does that mean there are no 12 occupied --

Mr. Wetzel

No. What it means is that you're approving a redevelopment proposal. The decision to acquire ultimately rests with the Board of the Redevelopment Authority. So you're approving a proposal, not the condemnation. So you're approving the proposal, which gives the Redevelopment Authority the power to proceed, but that Board must make the final decision on whether to acquire or not.

Councilwoman Blackwell

What's the difference between what we're doing 13 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. and imminent? I just saw some place it's not imminent.

Mr. Wetzel

Yes. It's a legal term that essentially clarifies that the action of Council is the approval of the proposal, but is not an act of condemnation. This Council is authorizing the Redevelopment Authority to proceed if it so chooses to institute this proposal, but it is not an act of condemnation on the part of the City of Philadelphia or this Council.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Thank you.

Council President Verna

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kelly.

Councilman Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Wetzel, I just want to know, what is the estimated value of these properties?

Mr. Wetzel

Sir, I can get 14 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. that for you. Today I don't have the detailed budget with me.

Councilman Kelly

Is it based on fair market value?

Mr. Wetzel

It's based on an estimate, but the first thing that we would do if this proposal is adopted and signed by the Mayor is first notify the owners of the property. We've already done so for this hearing purposes, but notify them that we've engaged an appraiser, a state certified licensed appraiser, who will come out to the property, that they have a right to be there, to be in contact with that appraiser, be there when the appraiser does their work and provide comments to the appraiser. Based on that appraisal, we would then make an offer. So what we have is an estimate at this point in time.

Councilman Kelly

And the estimate takes in a lot more than just the value of the property. 15 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Mr. Wetzel

Well, yes.

Councilman Kelly

As you mentioned before, it's --

Mr. Wetzel

All the advertising costs and potential legal expenses that could be incurred and everything associated with this.

Councilman Kelly

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Wetzel

You're welcome.

Councilman Kelly

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Council President Verna

Any other questions from members of the Committee? (No response.)

Council President Verna

Seeing none, Mr. Wetzel, I thank you. Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)

Council President Verna

Seeing no one, I would ask Ms. Murray to please read the title of Bill No. 051143. 16 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Ms. Murray

Bill No. 051143, an ordinance amending Section 10-112 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Keeping Farm Animals," by deleting the provision permitting the keeping of farm animals on parcels of 3 acres or more.

Council President Verna

Thank you. Do we have anyone from the Administration to testify on this bill? (No response.)

Council President Verna

Seeing no one, I would ask if we have any witnesses.

Ms. Murray

Bernadette Cartin.

Council President Verna

Hello. We appreciate your coming in to testify. Please identify yourself for the record.

Ms. Cartin

Good morning. My name is Bernadette Cartin. I'm a life-long resident of the City of Philadelphia. I'm here to testify on behalf of Philadelphia residents who 17 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. oppose the banning of farm-type animals. The current bill seeks to remove an exemption for residents who have three or more acres.

Council President Verna

Who have?

Ms. Cartin

Excuse me. Three or more acres. I'm sorry. This would make it impossible for any resident to keep these animals regardless of how much room they have. I and the people I represent would like the Council to remove any restriction on owning farm-type pets by residents who live in a house. Philadelphia was founded on principles of tolerance and individual freedom. The farm animal ban enacted over 300 years later is a slap in the face to all that William Penn stood for. There are quality of life issues to be considered in depriving City dwellers of the opportunity to keep chickens or ducks for eggs or a goat for milk. People all 18 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. over the City have gardens that provide fresh produce. Until recently, they also had the option of keeping chickens for fresh, healthful eggs. Why should all people be deprived of this opportunity just because a few have the idea that it shouldn't be done? A blanket ban on all farm animals punishes people who choose to enjoy these extraordinary pets and detracts from their quality of life. It detracts from the quality of life of neighbors who enjoy being able to see these animals without going to a zoo or traveling many miles to a farm. This law needs to be revoked, because neighbors can unfortunately be spiteful or vindictive. A neighbor might become angry at a neighbor for some perceived or actual offense which is totally unrelated to whether or not that person keeps farm animals, yet the angry neighbor can use the present law to attack that person in one of the most 19 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. hurtful ways imaginable to an animal lover, which is to attack beloved pets. We have all seen the devastation of Katrina and other disasters and heard story after story of the people who stayed in their homes at great personal risk because they would not and could not leave their pets behind. Such love and devotion is also found among Philadelphia's pet owners whether the pet be a cat, dog, parrot, duck, chicken or goat. A person who chooses to keep some chickens in the yard for companionship, to provide eggs or to eat garden pests should not be singled out and made to get rid of these pets if they do not or never have caused a problem for anyone. If such animals do cause problems for other people in the neighborhood, their owners can be dealt with on an individual basis by existing agencies. If an owner of farm animals has 20 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. been found repeatedly non-compliant with requests to reduce noise or improve sanitation, that individual should be subject to removal of some or all of his or her animals, just as a cat hoarder or dog collector has animals removed for health or sanitation concerns. A blanket ban on all farm animals persecutes people who choose to enjoy these extraordinary pets. In the spirit of William Penn, Philadelphia should continue its tradition of tolerance toward all good citizens allowing all rights and freedoms that do not impede the rights and freedoms of others. This law needs to be revoked or at least altered to provide for the rights and quality of life of people who like to keep their special pets. Philadelphia is based on the rule of the majority and respect for the rights of the minority. The majority of Philadelphia citizens may choose not to 21 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. keep farm-type pets for various reasons, but no law should prevent the minority who choose to do so from exercising that right. Thank you. And if I could enter into the record, I have a petition that was signed by 207 people in the week that I had to ask for these signatures. They represent citizens from all over the City, and I would like that into the record, if I might. Thank you.

Council President Verna

For the record, can you tell us how many acres of ground you have?

Ms. Cartin

Approximately one and a half.

Council President Verna

And can you further inform us as to what type of animals you have?

Ms. Cartin

I have horses. I have chickens. I have ducks.

Council President Verna

Well, according to the Code, I was very curious 22 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. to know what a farm animal --

Ms. Cartin

The bill --

Council President Verna

I was just rather curious to know what a farm animal as --

Ms. Cartin

According to the definition --

Council President Verna

If you don't mind.

Ms. Cartin

I'm sorry.

Council President Verna

I was curious to know how you defined a farm animal, and according to the Code, it's any chicken, goose, duck, turkey, goat, sheep, pig, cow or other farm animal. The horse, as you indicated you have, would not be excluded.

Ms. Cartin

Correct.

Council President Verna

Now, how close are you to your nearest neighbor?

Ms. Cartin

That's hard -- I don't know. It's hard for me to determine, but I would like to make it 23 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. known that of the signatures on that petition, most of them are from the closest neighbors to me, and those people enjoy coming and looking at my animals, and they are very upset at the possibility --

Council President Verna

Do any of your neighbors have farm animals?

Ms. Cartin

No, they don't.

Council President Verna

Okay. Any questions from members of the Committee? (No response.)

Council President Verna

I thank you for coming in to testify. Thank you very much. Do we have anyone else to testify?

Ms. Murray

Harry Citrino.

Council President Verna

I think it is afternoon now, so I can say, good afternoon.

Mr. Citrino

Good afternoon.

Council President Verna

24 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. Please identify yourself for the record.

Mr. Citrino

It is just after noon, and good afternoon, Madam President and Honorable Councilmembers. My name is Harry Citrino, C-I-T-R-I-N-O. I'm an attorney in Philadelphia, and I am here for two purposes. One, I am the Health Education and Welfare Chairperson for the Greater Bustleton Civic League and also as an attorney. I represent a farmer who lives in Northeast Philadelphia, quite close to the Fox Chase Farm, which is owned by the City. This ordinance that went into effect a while ago, although we were opposed to that ordinance going into effect, because as the prior woman that testified indicated, there are a number of people in the City who for purposes of one reason or another like to have fresh eggs or fresh milk or the wool from the sheep or whatever they choose to do, and there was an exclusion put into the bill 25 that said anyone with three acres or 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. more. And I do represent a farmer that has approximately four acres, and on the four acres, he grows his own vegetables and fruits. He has sheep for wool. He has goat for milk. He has chickens for eggs. He has the rooster to fertilize to get more chickens. He has some geese, and he has plenty of room. He's 100 yards or more away from his nearest neighbor because he has the acres. He even has a stream running through his property. And I came to represent that farmer and to find out the purpose for amending this bill. I could understand some sort of an amendment if you were going the other direction, if you wanted to amend it if somebody had an acre or an acre and a half, they'd be allowed also, but I don't understand the exclusion for someone that has almost four acres of land. I see that Councilman O'Neill is not present, and I don't know if any of the Honorable Councilpeople might -- 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Council President Verna

A member of his staff is here, who will certainly be more than happy to testify on the Councilman's behalf.

Mr. Citrino

Then if I could tell Mr. Finestone that I don't think that this amendment should be put into effect if the bill is going to remain as it is. I also see a constitutional issue. The City is now embroiled in a number of small pieces of litigation based on the last bill, because some people who owned farm animals have now started litigation. These cases are in progress at the present time concerning the ordinance that's in progress. I did want to bring to the Council's attention that of the top ten cities in this country population-wise, Philadelphia is the only one that has attempted to pass a ban on farm animals. Even New York City with in excess of 8 million people does not have a ban on 27 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. farm animals. And with the value of land in Manhattan as expensive as it is, there's no ban on farm animals. Since constitutionally a person has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I qualify the fact that life is the air you breathe, the food you eat, the water and milk that you drink, and I think it would behoove Council to look closely at this even for the constitutional issue of taking away someone's life. If their life is they're a farmer, you're actually forcing them to lose part of their life if they're going to lose those farm animals. They no 17 longer have access to farm fresh eggs. They no longer have access to the milk from the goat or the cow. And I think it would be unfair to minimize and constrain the residents of the City of Philadelphia in this way. The last person that testified did say that this is a City founded on tolerance, and we allow a lot of 28 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. different people to do a lot of different things as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else, and I find that if someone owns more than three acres of land, I don't think it's going to hurt anybody else that they continue to have these animals. I do thank you for the opportunity of testifying. I'll be interested to hear what Mr. Finestone has to say. Thank you very much.

Council President Verna

Thank you, Mr. Citrino. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kelly.

Councilman Kelly

Mr. Citrino, I just have a question. The farmer that you're representing or you have represented, could you tell me if he's in business or is this just a hobby for him?

Mr. Citrino

He's a registered farmer. He happens to be my son. That's why I'm here. That's his life. He wants to be a farmer.

Councilman Kelly

He does 29 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. sell --

Mr. Citrino

He's registered with the City. He has a business license, business privilege license. He sells fruits and vegetables out front of his property.

Councilman Kelly

How many acres does he have?

Mr. Citrino

He currently has 3.25 acres on one parcel, but we now own two adjoining parcels, which are now another one and a half acres. So he's closing in on five acres.

Councilman Kelly

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Citrino

You're welcome.

Council President Verna

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.

Councilwoman Brown

Thank you, Madam President. So please help me understand. I'm confused by your testimony. Do you support this bill or do you not?

Mr. Citrino

I do not support 30 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. this bill. I do not support the amendment. I'm here in opposition to Councilman O'Neill's proposal to eliminate that portion of the bill that says people with over three acres can have the farm. He wants to take that out of the bill and now say nobody in the City can have the farm. And I suggest to the Honorable Councilwoman that Fox Chase Farm is about 1.2 miles away from my son's farm, and Fox Chase Farm has all these animals, the same types of animals. It's an educational facility. The City owns it.

Councilwoman Brown

I see.

Mr. Citrino

So to stop someone that's a mile away and say you can't have it, he'll turn himself into an educational facility and invite the public in to see, he'll show them how to grow fruits and vegetables and how to raise animals.

Councilwoman Brown

Do you know to what extent the community at 31 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. large in that area is, A, aware of this bill and where they might sit with this bill?

Mr. Citrino

I don't think that anyone knows about this bill. The only reason I found out about it was because it was on the Internet. I don't think the community as a whole knows anything about this bill. I don't think they have -- that farm has been there since 1760. That's how old that farm is.

Councilwoman Brown

So one should gather from your answer that there's been no community public debate or exchange.

Mr. Citrino

Nothing.

Councilwoman Brown

Thank you for your testimony.

Mr. Citrino

Thank you very much.

Council President Verna

You're welcome. Any other questions from members of the Committee? 32 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. (No response.)

Council President Verna

Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. Citrino

Thank you very much, Madam President.

Council President Verna

You're welcome. Our next witness?

Ms. Murray

Aaron Finestone.

Mr. Finestone

Good afternoon, Council President. Aaron Finestone, City Council technical staff. I'm here for Councilman O'Neill. Just for clarification, Councilwoman Brown, the Fox Chase Farm is exempt under the ordinance for an educational institution. Councilman O'Neill originally agreed to the three-acre exemption on the belief that there was an actual farm of more than three acres, and the information that he now has is that the farm in question is not an actual farm. If in fact it is an actual farm, he would 33 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. be willing to meet with the owner and work out some controls to protect the community. And the controls would amount to certain setback requirements, because there have been problems -- the problems with farm animals are sanitation and smell, and there is a concern that unless there are certain controls, certain distances, that it would be a nuisance to the neighbors. However, since he has not been able to find an actual farm, he believes the bill should be approved.

Council President Verna

Can you tell me or tell the Committee how many farms or such farms are perhaps in the Councilman's district? I just don't know how many we would have within the City limits. Are we talking about one farm?

Mr. Finestone

We're not aware of any farms.

Council President Verna

You're not aware of any farms?

Mr. Finestone

No. There's a 34 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. distinction between people keeping chickens in their backyard and operating a working farm as your business where this is your primary -- there's not enough open land in Philadelphia.

Council President Verna

Councilman Kelly.

Councilman Kelly

I just wanted to know, have you received any complaints? Has the Council office received many complaints about any of the smell or the --

Mr. Finestone

As to Mr. Citrino's client's farm, I'm not aware of any, but I can't say one way or the other.

Councilman Kelly

You're not aware of any complaints?

Mr. Finestone

I'm not aware. It doesn't mean there are; it doesn't mean there's not. I'm just not aware of it.

Councilman Kelly

And would you know the closest neighbor to that 35 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. particular farm?

Mr. Finestone

No, sir.

Councilman Kelly

You don't. And you haven't heard one way or the other whether the neighbors --

Mr. Finestone

Personally I know nothing. I don't know.

Councilman Kelly

You haven't received any specific complaints?

Mr. Finestone

I don't know if anything has come into the office, but speaking for myself, I have no knowledge either way.

Councilman Kelly

Okay. Thank you.

Council President Verna

Thank you very much. Are there any other questions from members of the Committee on this bill? (No response.)

Council President Verna

Thank you.

Mr. Finestone

Thank you. 36 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Council President Verna

Do we have anyone else to testify?

Mr. Citrino

May I approach, Madam President?

Council President Verna

I beg your pardon?

Mr. Citrino

May I approach? I've already testified, but I --

Council President Verna

You have, and we usually don't do this, but I think there are some members that are a little perplexed. So maybe you could --

Mr. Citrino

Thank you very much.

Council President Verna

-- clear the air, so to speak.

Mr. Citrino

I appreciate it. There is an actual farm. It's located on Welsh Road in Northeast Philadelphia. Like I said, it's about three and a half acres.

Council President Verna

Is this your son's farm?

Mr. Citrino

This is my son's 37 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. farm. This is the farm. I don't know of any other farms either.

Council President Verna

Does it fall within the educational-type farm that Mr. Aaron Finestone spoke about earlier?

Mr. Citrino

Fox Chase Farm is the educational farm. It's about a mile over. Fox Chase Farm is City owned. This is the only privately owned farm that I know of in the City. And when my son talked about it about seven or eight years ago when he wanted to purchase the land, he said, I think it would be great. The farm --

Council President Verna

How many acres is your son's farm?

Mr. Citrino

Approximately 3.5, and I said we've just acquired another acre and a half. It's closing in on five acres, and there's a stream that runs through the farm. It's in Bustleton and it is an operational farm. So I thought I'd just clarify that for the 38 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. Councilmembers.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Thank you.

Mr. Citrino

Thank you very much.

Council President Verna

Thank you. Mr. Finestone.

Mr. Finestone

I just received a call from our office. We have received complaints about Mr. Citrino's client's farm and they're from people on Redd Rambler Road who have made complaints.

Council President Verna

What type of complaints?

Mr. Finestone

I need to call back. I apologize. May I have a moment?

Council President Verna

We'll wait.

Mr. Citrino

If we could bring maps out to show the Councilpeople. The people on Redd Rambler Road don't even own the land that they're talking about. Some of their backyards are actually part 39 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. of my son's farm. That's why they're complaining. The way the stream runs, the land runs across the stream. My son owns their backyards. They want to complain because they don't like that fact. So if there's complaints, the complaints are going to be nebulous complaints about we don't like having the farm there, because they don't really own most of the land that they think they own.

Council President Verna

The Chair recognizes Councilman Kelly.

Councilman Kelly

Mr. Citrino, I'm just curious about the neighbors that you just alluded to. Is this a development? Is this a new development or have those homes been there for years?

Mr. Citrino

No, sir. This farmhouse that my son lives in, I'm going to date it back to 1760.

Councilman Kelly

I'm talking about the neighbors.

Mr. Citrino

The houses? 40 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Councilman Kelly

The houses, are they newer?

Mr. Citrino

Those houses are probably 1950's homes. They're probably about 50 years old.

Councilman Kelly

So they were built after your farm? In other words, your farm was there beforehand and these homes were built after that?

Mr. Citrino

That is correct.

Councilman Kelly

Okay.

Mr. Citrino

And the one neighbor that I think Mr. Finestone is alluding to has complained from the day she moved in. She moved from Fishtown or Port Richmond or wherever it was. And she didn't care. There shouldn't be any animals in the City of Philadelphia. That was her position, and it's been that way. She's called the Department of Health.

Councilman Kelly

So this could be just one neighbor complaining about they don't like animals evidently? 41 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Mr. Citrino

That is correct. So the Board of Health has been out a number of times five, six years ago. License & Inspections has been out. And everybody that comes says how clean it is, how there is a barn, there is a fenced-in farm yard. The animals can't get away from the farm yard.

Councilman Kelly

Are there any violations, as far as you know?

Mr. Citrino

No violations.

Councilman Kelly

No 14 violations at all --

Councilman Kelly

-- from L&I or from the Health Department or whatever?

Mr. Citrino

Nothing.

Councilman Kelly

Thank you.

Mr. Finestone

May I respond? The office just called down again. The complaints include roosters crowing and keeping people from sleeping, particularly police and fire people. The 42 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. complaints about smell and complaints about environmental runoff into the stream, pollution of the stream. The chicken coop is near a neighbor's backyard. Noise. And neighbors say it's not a working farm. It's somebody who likes to keep chickens and animals in their backyard.

Council President Verna

Thank you. Any questions or comments from members of the Committee?

Ms. Cartin

May I respond?

Council President Verna

I think you had an opportunity to testify. I would like to clarify this. If you want to come up to the witness table, but I'm going to ask you to please be brief. Please come up and add to what has already been stated.

Ms. Cartin

I just wanted to respond --

Council President Verna

Identify yourself for the record, please. 43 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC.

Ms. Cartin

Bernadette Cartin. I just wanted to respond to the comment about the complaints about roosters crowing. I also live in Councilman O'Neill's district, and most of the signatures in my petition are from the people who live right behind me, who are also in his district, and those people enjoy hearing the roosters crow. It makes them feel like they're in the country. That's what they've told me. And one man moved up from Kensington and said that if the animals ever go, he's moving out because it wouldn't be any fun to live up where he lives anymore because of that.

Council President Verna

Thank you. And a copy of the petition that you have submitted this morning, a copy will be given to Councilman O'Neill's office. Anyone else to testify? Any questions of these witnesses? (No response.)

Council President Verna

44 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. Seeing none, this will conclude our public hearing. We will now go into the public meeting. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke regarding Bill No. 051232.

Councilman Clarke

Thank you, Madam President. I move that Bill 051232 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation and a request for a suspension of the rules to allow reading at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)

Council President Verna

It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 16 051232 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation, also a recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All in favor will please indicate by saying aye. (Aye.)

Council President Verna

Those opposed? 45 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. (No response.)

Council President Verna

The ayes have it and the motion carries. Again, the Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke regarding Bill No. 7 051233.

Councilman Clarke

Madam President, I move that Bill 051233 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation and a request for a suspension of the rules as to allow reading at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)

Council President Verna

It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 17 051233 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation, also a recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All in favor will please indicate by saying aye. (Aye.)

Council President Verna

Those 46 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. opposed? (No response.)

Council President Verna

The ayes have it and the motion carries. Again, the Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke regarding Bill No. 8 051143.

Councilman Clarke

Madam President, it's my understanding that the Committee is requesting that this bill be held at this time until there could be more clarification on some of the issues.

Council President Verna

All in favor will say aye. (Aye.)

Council President Verna

Those opposed? (No response.)

Council President Verna

The ayes have it and Bill No. 051143 will be held until such time as more information can be provided. Thank you all very much for your patience. 47 2/1/06 - RULES - BILL 051232, ETC. (Committee on Rules adjourned at 12:20 p.m.) - - - 48 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on February 1, 2006, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)