Committee Hearing, October 28, 1999

Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any other questions for these witnesses? (No questions.)

Is there anyone else here who wishes to testify for or against the bill? (No response.)

Thank you. Thank you, ladies. Hearing none, the clerk will read the title of the next bill as it relates to --

Thank you.

Mr. Cunningham, do 46 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990572 you have anything else to add to the testimony on that last bill?

I'd just like to reiterate what I said earlier, which was that the Commissioner was under the impression that we would not discuss the ordinance at all today because there was time need to do analyze it in depth, and so I just want to say again that we do not want the bill passed until we've had time to analyze it. We would certainly like to say to the people here, however, that we do apologize for that inconvenience, and we are looking at our entire right-of-way management policies to ensure that things like that do not happen in the future.

Thank you. Do you happen to know -- and this is no disrespect to you -- how much more time the Commissioner may need to analyze this problem?

No, I can't answer that, sir.

Okay, thank you. The clerk will read the title of the next bill. 47 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990572

Bill No. 990 -- John, do you have another bill?

Yes, I have one -- 990452, which was my last one.

That's not on here. That was withdrawn.

That was withdrawn.

Withdrawn?

Yeah.

Very good.

Yes, ma'am? If you wish to testify, you need to come to the witness table. Is it on this bill? UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: It's on the bill 17 that Miss Woods was just talking about. I was just wondering if --

Please, you need to come to the table and identify yourself for the record, ma'am. (Unidentified woman comes forward.)

My name is Sarah Austin. I'm a resident over in the Temple area. My question to this gentleman is, what is that you 48 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990572 would have to analyze? If you built a foundation, don't you think the vents and stuff should have been put in before?

Ma'am, you need to direct your questions to the Chair, and then --

Okay. Well, my question is, if you're building a foundation, if you're putting vents and whatever it is necessary to put into a building, doesn't that have to be put in before you put the top of the building on?

Yeah, I mean, all I can --

It seems like to me, I don't see a reason why this street is still even in question of being closed.

We need to get that information. I think one of my questions was, as Miss Woods indicated in her testimony, Miss Woods says that the Streets Department, or a representative from the Streets Department, indicated that there was additional work. Now, by "additional," was that work outside the scope of the original contract or was that something that they encountered problems that when the excavation 49 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 began? So before I can comment on that either way, I would like to see the testimony -- or the correspondence, and we can get into this dialogue later on.

Okay.

Thank you. Is there anyone else here who wishes to testify for or against the bill? (No response.)

Hearing none, the clerk will read the title of the next bill. Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.

Bill No. 990567, an ordinance authorizing the installation of all-way stop signs at the following intersections on Green Lane: Silverwood Street and Baker Street.

Before the testimony begins, let the record reflect that Councilmember Nutter is here today. Thank you.

Good morning, Councilman and committee. Charles Trainor, of the Streets Department Traffic Engineering. The Department of Streets offers no 50 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 objection to the passage of Bill No. 990567 authorizing the installation of all-way stop signs at the intersection of Green Lane and Silverwood and Green Lane and Baker Street in a manner consistent with PennDOT regulations.

In a manner consistent with PennDOT regulations. Are you saying that you are going to install these things?

Councilman, I'm saying that we have no objection to the passage of the bill authorizing the signs in a manner consistent with PennDOT regulations.

Councilmember Rizzo?

Thank you. Mr. Trainor, to be more specific, the locations in question, are they all in accordance with PennDOT specifications? And if they are, are the signs going to be installed?

Past studies have shown that they do not justify all-way stop signs.

So you're telling us that you're okay with the legislation, but we're 51 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 not going to get the stop signs.

If the legislation authorizes the installation of the stop sign in a manner consistent with PennDOT regulations. If we restudy the intersections and they are justified by PennDOT regulations, they would be installed.

I want to ask another question. If the Administration, your commissioner, ordered you or authorized you to install those stop signs, could you do it?

I would say yes.

But he would say no to City Council. Okay, Councilmember Nutter? I'm sorry. Are you through?

So you're telling me that administratively, the Commissioner could -- at what level could you authorize these signs to be installed, at your level?

I would only authorize the signs -- installation if they are consistent with PennDOT regulations.

But if you were told by the Commissioner of your department to install 52 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 the signs would, you install them?

I would probably install 'em.

Thank you.

But if City Council authorizes it by way of legislation, you're saying unless you get the approval from your commissioner, you would not install the signs.

That's correct, sir.

Okay, he speaks for the people and we don't, okay. Councilmember Nutter.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, your indulgence, is, prior to getting into any discussion with Mr. Trainor, I have constituents who are here, who have taken the time to come here this morning, and I'd like them to have an opportunity to make a record based on their views of living in the neighborhood and why they've been so sincere in trying to pursue this issue. And I have been working with them, and that's the result 53 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 today of the legislation and the public hearing. And so I'd like them to have an opportunity to state on the record their concerns and their issues and why they feel so strongly about this.

Thank you. Ma'am? Or whoever's going to start, please yourself for the record and bring the microphone as closely to you as possible and speak directly into it.

Okay, is this all right? I want to say good morning first to all of the Councilmen, to Councilman Frank DiCicco, and I want to say good morning to all the boards.

Good morning.

All the members of the board. All right. My name is Bernadette Ampthor.

Repeat your name again, please.

My name is Bernadette Ampthor.

And would you 54 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 spell that last name.

A-M-P-T-H-O-R.

Thank you. Just tilt that microphone down a little bit so that you won't have to stretch up. That's it. Thank you.

Okay. I am a member of St. Lucy's parish, and I am also a member of St. Lucy's Leadership Team. And I live on Wilde Street, located one block off of Green Lane. I believe that these two stop signs, which are being discussed today, at these locations, Green Lane and Baker Street, and also Green Lane and Silverwood Street, would result in decreasing the speed of traffic in this area -- be it trucks or cars on Green Lane as a whole, but particularly at Green Lane and Baker Street, the site of many accidents, including 17 accidents from the period of January to July of 1999, according to the 5th Police District report. I might add that there have been a total of 51 accidents from the period of January to July, 1999 from Green Lane and Ridge Avenue and Green Lane and Main Street. These stop signs, in my opinion, may 55 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 also possibly help in lowering the portion of traffic at Green Lane and Main Street, according to the (unintelligible) of the traffic light at the approach of Green Lane Bridge, thus allowing more vehicles to pass onto the bridge at that intersection and alleviate the bottleneck experienced every morning. I believe that these stop signs are needed for the safety of the 225 school children, the many, many seniors who attend church services and various church events. From Manayunk Avenue to Main Street, there are no -- there are currently no stop signs which would slow down traffic. This allows cars and trucks alike coming down the hill to have a free-for-all and to far exceed the school zone speed limit of 15 miles per hour. This is a steep, curvy slope of nearly half a mile. As early as 6 a.m., while walking my dog, I observed cars as driving on a speedway actually in the middle of Green Lane, another free-for-all. If my dog ever broke loose and crossed the street, I know that she would be killed. 56 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 Drivers do not even slow down for the crossing guard in front of St. Lucy's Church and School. And on several occasions, speeding cars have just barely missed an older parishioner, and myself included, while I tried to assist her across Green Lane to attend daily mass. Most recently, on October 20, 1999, shortly after 8:30 p.m., an accident occurred once again at Green Lane and Baker Streets. It was serious enough to have an ambulance summoned. In the early part of this summer, one of our team members, and a long-term parishioner, was hit while driving across Silverwood by a car speeding up Green Lane at the intersection of Green Lane and Silverwood streets. Thankfully, she and her daughter passenger suffered no 18 injuries, but her car was totaled. A stop sign for Green Lane traffic at this intersection could have prevented -- hopefully prevented -- this accident much. I thank you so much for the opportunity of presenting my testimony about the danger of Green Lane traffic.

Thank you. Thank 57 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 you, ma'am. Is there anyone else who wishes to testify?

Good morning.

Good morning. Identify yourself for the record, please.

Good morning, Council. My name is Bob Medlock. I also am a member of St. Lucy's Leadership Council and am a parishioner of St. Lucy's.

Santa Luccia, patron saint of eyesight, or something, isn't it? Thank God you have good eyes; you may have passed that intersection. Thank you.

This letter -- I've got the pleasure of reading this letter. This is from Mrs. Mary Jo Santore. She is the crossing guard at Green Lane, in front of St. Lucy's School. "I'm writing this letter, not only as a concerned neighbor, but also as a very concerned crossing guard. "First of all, I have lived on Baker Street most of my like, and I never remember as many accidents on Green Lane and Baker Street. I 58 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 feel that part of the problem is that some of the people coming up Green Lane think they are still on the expressway, and they come up the hill sometimes doing 40, even 50, miles an hour. I don't know if they are even aware that one block up the hill begins a 15-mile-an-hour school zone. The people who live right here in this neighborhood know how bad this corner is and inch their way out of Baker Street, especially when there is a car parked on the corner of Green Lane. "I don't know when the Streets Department did their survey for how many people travel this intersection, but this is a heavily traveled road. Also, evidently, the figures for the accidents that happen on this corner must be wrong because there already has been at least two to three accidents in a one-week period here. All of the neighbors keep saying, What is it going to take to get an all-way stop sign here? Does someone have to get hurt really bad or maybe even killed? "Well, last Wednesday night, we thought that had happened. I was sitting in my house, which is a half a block down the street from Green 59 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 Lane on Baker, when around 8:30, I heard this screech, a big bang, and the horn of the car continuously blowing. I pictured in my mind that this must be the big one and said, Dear God, please let the people be all right. In hearing the horn blowing, all I could picture was a person slumped over the car dead. Luckily, the two people involved in this accident were all right. The horn had gotten stuck in the accident. You could really see the relief on everyone's faces when we got to the corner and found the people to be okay. "On a personal experience, I can tell you about the day my daughter was inching her way around the corner since a car was parked and blocking her view. A woman coming up Green Lane blew her horn from Cresson Street, which is one block down, until she hit the side of my daughter's car. Now, if she could blow her horn from one block, would it have been so hard for her to slow down or to stop her car before slamming into my daughter. Just an example of how fast people come up Green Lane, acting as if it was still the expressway. 60 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 "I could go on and on about different people I know that have been involved in accidents on this corner, but I won't because you can get all the information from police records. "As a crossing guard who crosses children at Green Lane and St. David's Street, which is one block up from this intersection, I could safely say there is almost one accident a day that I can see from my corner. m. m. I counted an average of 820 to 850 cars coming up and going down Green Lane. It just happened that on that Friday, a lot of areas were flooded out because of Hurricane Floyd, and Green Lane was the only way to get the expressway. That morning, I counted 1600 cars and then stopped counting. Granted, that was an exceptional day, but there will be others like that when there is another flood or trouble on the highways. "I really feel that the safest thing for everyone is to put up an all-way stop sign at the intersections of Green Lane and Baker Streets, and that this may possibly save someone's life one 61 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 day. "Another thing I see a lot of being a crossing guard is the 18-wheeler trailers that are traveling up Green Lane. There used to be a sign that said "no through trucks" on the Manayunk Bridge. Construction was started on this bridge, and the sign disappeared.

, an 18-wheeler got stuck at Richie Street and Green Lane. I had to try to direct traffic down away from the truck and cross the children at the same time. I had children coming down the street, walking on the pavement where they belong, and now there were cars jumping the curb to avoid hitting the truck and trying to avoid hitting a child walking, where he or she was supposed to be. It was a very dangerous situation. "I called for the police, and when they came, the truck had finally got up the hill a little bit. But from my understanding, they did pull him over and ticket him. "A child walking to school takes the same route every day. They cannot go through side streets when a tractor-trailer's creating a problem. Cars can detour, but children cannot. 62 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 "For the safety of the children, I really hope you pass the ban on tractor-trailers on Green Lane. Also for the good of our neighborhood and for all the people that travel on Green Lane, I hope that you pass this bill, 990567, before someone really gets hurt. "I guess now this is in God's hands and yours. I hope that God will be watching over this intersection and help you come to the right decision about putting an all-way sign on Green Lane and Baker Streets. "May God bless us all, especially the children that travel on Green Lane. "Sincerely, Mrs. ".

Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Are there any other witnesses today that wish to speak?

Councilman DiCicco, my name's Rose Canicci (ph.), and I am a member of St. Lucy's parish. I have a letter here written by one of our team members who could not be present because she is a crossing. 63 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 "My name is Linda Adderno (ph.). I am a school crossing guard for the 5th Police District in the Manayunk section of Philadelphia, and am a member of the Manayunk Council Leadership Team. From a crossing guard's perspective, I strongly feel that the implementation of stop signs at the above locations is a grave necessity to ensure the safety of the school children, the pedestrians, drivers, church parishioners, senior citizens, and the community as a whole who must utilize Green Lane on a daily basis. "From compact cars to 53-foot tractor-trailers, this uniquely narrow, hilly, curvy, residential street is very heavily traveled, and in my opinion, at times resembles the Manayunk version of the Atco Speedway due to the complete disregard of its posted speed limits, especially during school hours. "In view of the many recent traffic accident reports investigated and filed on record with the 5th Police District concerning these above-mentioned locations, along with endless Leadership Team studies, community surveys, and various petitions to City government, this request 64 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 should be considered a no-brainer. "My only hope is that these stop signs will be installed as soon as possible in order to prevent a needless fatality to the staunch neighborhood community. As a uniformed City employee in the Philadelphia Police Department, I thank you for considering my request."

Thank you, ma'am. Anyone else who wishes to testify?

Good morning, Councilman. My name is Josephine Cofone. "To Councilman Frank DiCicco and City Council: On September 13, 1996, we had a very bad accident at Green Lane and Baker Streets, as have many people. There was a truck parked on the corner of Green Lane, and a young man ran the stop sign coming from Baker Street. Our car was very badly damaged. "When the police came, they or anyone could judge from the scene that the young man, instead of inching his way out of Baker Street, came full force and ran the stop sign. "Two days later, we passed by in a rented car, which our car was in for repairs, and 65 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 the stop sign was no longer there. Thanks to Sergeant Moore at the 5th District, he had the sign put back up within a short time. "My husband was driving. Due to having a hard condition, I spent the night at Roxborough Memorial Hospital. I cannot understand why the young man was not given a ticket, but the officer at the accident informed me he could not give a ticket because he didn't see it. "There should be no-parking signs at the corner of Green Lane and Baker Streets at least to the middle of that block for this problem not to happen so often as it has. "Hopefully, this will be resolved. Thank you. Anna Stumpo (ph.)"

Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Yes, ma'am?

Good morning, Councilman. My name is Irene Madrak, and I'm the Executive Director of North Lake Community Center, and that's just about a block's distance up the street but on the opposite side from St. Lucy's. Just to give you an idea of the number 66 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 of kids and the frequency of crossing, the children from St. Lucy's School use our gymnasium for gym classes and cross as a class probably four times a day. The children from St. Lucy's also come to our after-school program. So it is a very busy street. There is quite a bit of speed picked up because there aren't any stop signs for, you know, a long distance. And it really is pretty hairy when kids try to cross the street. We also have children that come in the early evening and after school generally from the neighborhood, and a lot of the kids we serve are the other side of Green Lane. And so there's crossing and it really is the kind of thing where kids stand there and false starts, and it's really an accident waiting to happen. So I just wanted to add that children cross this street all the time, and there is no 21 safe place to cross once the crossing guards are not there.

Thank you. And for me, while I recognize and respect everyone's testimony here, often we get 67 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 requests for traffic device signals or stop signs at various intersections, but the most compelling testimony today for me is that two crossing guards who we charge with the responsibility of crossing children have made the recommendations, and their they're on behalf of the stop signs, and I think that's something we should not be ignoring, regardless of what the State warrants provide. Councilmember Nutter?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What I would want to ask, with the Chair's indulgence, I've distributed a packet of information. I would ask that this material be included as a part of the record. We'll make sure that the stenographer gets a copy. But I would ask, with the Chair's approval, that the memo that starts with the cover sheet of Bill No. 990567 and the two attached letters be made official a part of this record. Secondly, I would like to inquire of Mr. Trainor about what appears to be some discrepancy between the letter from Mr. Moy and the memo from the 5th District commanding officer at the time, Captain McCarty, to Mr. Moio (ph.).. 68 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 Mr. Trainor, can you provide any explanation as to the information provided in the letter dated June 25, 1999 from Mr. Moio to Father Sabatini of St. Lucy's, in articulating in Warrant 2 that according to police accident records from 1990 to December 1998, there were only five reportable accidents. That's in Mr. Moio's letter. But Captain McCarty, in a memo dated August 25, 1999 to Mr. Moio, obviously after Mr. Moio had written his letter to Father Sabatini, makes the report that he has completed a survey of auto accidents reported to police radio on Green Lane and Baker Street for the period of January 1999 to July 1999, a six-month period this year, and reports 17 accidents. And for the same time period for the length of Green Lane, from Maine to Ridge, reports 51 accidents in the same six-month time period. Can you please explain the discrepancy between these figures?

Councilman, to the best of our knowledge, as the captain said, he checked the record as to accidents reported to police 69 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 radio. Those accidents, from what we understand, can be identified as Baker Street and Green Lane, but when a police officer shows up out there, it is not Baker and Green Lane, it is actually -- three houses down from that location is where the accident is.

Isn't that still Baker and Green Lane?

It may be on Green Lane, it could be on Baker. It's not part of the -- it is not at the intersection. The accident records that we --

Well, what's the definition of "an intersection"?

The intersection is as the police officer defines it, and we do go within about feet on either side of it. 19

So then what 20 difference does it make if it's three houses up the street then?

That's -- that is up -- it is not then an intersection accident. Could be a rear-end accident, it could be an accident that is a fixed object, which could include a parked 70 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 cars. Those are the types of mid-block accidents. They're not at an accident involving two cars at right angles to each other.

Let me ask you this question, then. Tell me about the four accidents that took place in January of 1999 at Green and Baker. What kind of accidents were they?

Councilman, I cannot answer that. I do not have that information with me.

Okay. What kind of accidents were the two accidents in February of 1999?

Again, Councilman, I have not -- I did not bring any data with me to testify on these bills.

What was the accident in March at Green and Baker, of 1999?

Councilman, again, I cannot answer. I did not bring any data.

What about April of 1999, where there were five accidents? Tell me about those then.

Councilman, again, I 71 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 cannot answer. I do not have the data with me to determine what they were. In addition to that, the --

Well, did Mr. Moio have that --

Councilman, I --

Did Mr. Moio have that information when he made his determination in his June 25, 1999 letter? Did he know about these accidents?

Councilman, the Traffic Engineering Division does not have accident records from the Police Department past March of 1999. We are reviewing accident records through January of 1990 through the last date, which, as I said, just happens to be March 1999. We receive them after they are coded into the police accident system. We do not use the radio call system; we use the actual coding that the Police Department places into the system based on the report of the investigating officer at the scene.

So your testimony is, you are never up to date on what's going on at 72 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 any particular intersection of about six to eight months, and you disregard whatever police radio says as reported accidents. I think that apparently seems to be a term of art -- "reported accidents to police radio." So as far as you're concerned, the 8 accidents that were reported at Green Lane and 9 Baker for the first 7 months of 1999, that's a 10 virtually irrelevant, non-bearing statistic to the 11 Streets Department. 12

Only the accidents up 13 until March of 1999 are the accidents that we have 14 at the present time. These accidents, as they go 15 through the system, they will be included into our 16 -- at this time, it's a hard-copy database for 17 our use. But what is reported to the Police Department is --

So then what's the relevance when Mr. Moio writes a letter to Father Sabatini on an issue that is of deep importance to people in the community, and he writes a letter on June 25, 1999 and says: "Warrant 2. Relates to accident experience. Police accident records of 5 73 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 or more reportable accidents within a 12-month period correctable by a multi-way installation satisfies Warrant 2. According to police accident records from 1990 to December 1998, there were only five reportable accidents."

That is according to --

He's writing a letter in June of 1999 and he's talking about a period in 1998 and 8 years prior, but has no 11 relevant information in 1999 that says that there were 17 accidents at or near that intersection.

The accident history for the previous nine years is relevant, it shows what is going on out there. It also shows us what is a report of --

Well, I think the previous accident history for the seven-month period from January to July is very relevant also.

Councilman, it also shows us what is a State-reportable accident, which is not necessarily an accident that the police radio room receives.

I have no idea what you just said. 74 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567

The police radio room 3 receives a call regarding an accident. The accident is not necessarily a State-reportable accident.

Could you explain a State-reportable accident?

A State-reportable accident, according to the State Vehicle Code, is an accident where there is an injury, a fatality, or the vehicle cannot move. That is a State-reportable accident, and those are the type of accidents that are used for the study or to justify an all-way stop sign.

So unless a car is totaled in the accident, that's the only accident that really counts.

Or if someone is injured.

If you dent my fender, if you bust up my door, if you smash in the back of my vehicle and the gas tank explodes, that's not a reportable accident because maybe you can still move the car. Is that your testimony?

Up until possibly the gas 75 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 tank exploding, that would be my testimony, yes, sir.

So two cars have an accident, they smash their fronts together. If they are able to limp away from the scene, that's not a reportable accident. But if one flips over and the other has the roof crushed, that is a reportable accident. And you're telling me that there is a difference between those two in terms of life safety at that particular intersection?

They are the regulations that we have in the state of Pennsylvania. They are also the guidelines provided to the states by the Federal Highway Administration.

Well, what about common sense and engineering judgment? Where does that fit in in any of this?

Engineering judgment, Councilman, would fit in when we're looking at a angle-type accident or possibly 4 reportable in a 12-month period and 4 or 5 non-reportable's. That's the ones that are the fender-benders that are angle type. We are talking about a borderline 76 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 situation based either on accidents or volume.

That's a very interesting term, Mr. Trainor, because according to every letter I've received from the Department, there is nothing known as "a borderline situation." Every letter that I get starts with, At whatever intersection, we are not dealing with a borderline situation. There is nothing in the Department that has ever been described as "a borderline situation." So tell me, what is a borderline situation?

Again, Councilman, it's when we are talking about a situation where we are, from a volume perspective, during the midday peek or midday operation, we are talking about an 80 percent of the volume requirement. That would be approximately 160 vehicles and/or pedestrians crossing the main street. That could be a borderline situation. With a number of accidents that are below five, maybe three, that could be considered a borderline situation.

All right, that's 77 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 all well and good. Now, tell me this, we've had testimony from a half a dozen people, we have accident reports from the Police Department -- whether they're reportable in your world or not, these things actually do happen, we didn't make them up. If kids are crossing the street four or five times a day, younger people, older people, a lot of people, what is the Department's response to the traffic safety issues out on Green Lane? And what do you guys propose to do?

We have already placed continental crosswalks at both Silverwood and at St. David's where the school crossing is. The school crossing not at Baker. We have made recommendations for the enforcement, and we would be glad to extend the corner clearances on the south -- parking clearances on the south side of Green Lane to increase the sight distance on Green Lane, for vehicles coming up Green Lane.

And what is the solution to the speed of the traffic on Green Lane? 78 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567

The solution to the speed of traffic on Green Lane is --

Kids and other people should not have to virtually take their lives into their hands every day as they try to get back and forth across the street.

The solution to the --

And the 5th District, as you well know, like every other police district in this city, is not going to post a uniformed police officer out there to watch cars go by every day. They have a couple other things that they need to do with themselves.

Councilman, I'm sorry. That is the answer. The enforcement of the speed limit --

No, it is not the answer.

-- for both the posted 21 speed limit and the 15 school speed limit that is 22 out there, not a speed-control device. 23

Councilman Nutter, 24 could I ask a question at this moment? 25

Sure. 79 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567

You talk about the setbacks, you talk about identifying the crosswalks and things. What is it that the Philadelphia Streets Department is so worried about if they would put in a stop sign, a four-way stop sign at this intersection? What is it that you're so concerned about? You have all this testimony, you have police reports, you have citizens testifying about the problems there. And I know we have rules and regulations and all that stuff, but what are you worried about? If we put the stop sign in and say, The hell with the warrants and what the State is, this is what the citizens of Philadelphia want, this is what the Councilperson who represents the district wants. It is police reports, not just John Doe who says, Hey, I think you should have a stop sign there. You have police reports, you have testimony from two crossing guards. Put the damn stop sign in, Charlie. What is it that you're worried about will happen to you or Commissioner Moy if you don't put the stop sign in? I can't get through to you guys 80 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 yet.

Councilman --

I don't comprehend this. Is it a lawsuit? The hell with the lawsuit. We'll take that lawsuit.

Councilman, putting in an unjustified stop sign is --

Forget the justifying -- we're justifying it in this room 11 today, Charlie. Put the stop sign in. You think the State's going to send down an inspector to go look at every intersection in the City of Philadelphia and say, The stop sign wasn't warranted here, Philadelphia, lawsuit. Let them sue us. Put the stop sign in, Charlie.

Councilman --

Excuse me, Charlie. Put the stop sign in. Let's stop negotiating these things day in and day out and wasting everyone's time. I got a lot of things to do today -- I have constituent phone calls, probably 40 of them waiting for me. And you're going to sit here tell me that the taxpayers and 81 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 the elected officials in this city don't have as much say as your commissioner. He's appointed. We're elected by these people. Put the stop signs in and let's get on with it, Charlie. Forget those State warrants, and if the lawsuit comes and you get sued, I will personally get an attorney to represent you free of charge. This is four years of this stuff. I've been conducting these meetings and I get the same stuff day in and day out. It's ridiculous. Councilman Nutter, are you finished yet?

Mr. Chairman, I deeply appreciate your comments and your support on this particular issue. I think that many of us are just very, very frustrated by this. It is, if not actually, it is almost embarrassing that we find ourselves in a situation where I have to ask and contact my constituents who have asked for something that we is necessary and justified. We have public testimony on a lot of different things, and sometimes people really do need to come in. We just find ourselves in the 82 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 bizarre situation that we've recently begun this process of dealing with traffic signals and installation by way of bills and ordinances, and some of have been passed, and subsequently action has been taken. I believe that the citizens of this city deserve better and shouldn't have to go through this particular process. I appreciate them coming down here today. It's a good group. We have other people who are here. And they have tried to work with us and to work with the department. The Mayor's Office has indicated their great interest in this whole issue and their support to have something for the folks who are here and others to follow. So I mean, I can't -- I mean, I've received a response -- I don't think I got an answer, but I got a response to the question that I laid out, and the material is included as a part of the record. I would certainly implore the committee to take the appropriate action under these circumstances. So I'm concluded on this particular bill, and thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 83 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567

Thank you. Councilmember Rizzo?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Trainor, could you please provide to the Chair the installation records of four-way all-direction stop signs for the last months 9 and identify that the warrants have been made on 10 every installation of all-way stop signs in the 11 City of Philadelphia. 12 And I'm asking you directly, every 13 four-way stop sign, all-way stop sign that's been 14 installed in the last 24 months, have they all met 15 the criteria of PennDOT? Have there been any 16 exceptions made? Have you gotten a phone call 17 from the Mayor's Office? Have you gotten a call 18 from the Streets Department from the Streets 19 Commissioner's office and said, Charlie, like 20 Councilman DiCicco just said put an all-way stop 21 sign up. Has every one met the criteria by 22 PennDOT for the last 24 months? 23

I will provide that. 24

Answer the question.

I will provide that list 84 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 to the Councilman.

Answer the question.

I will provide the list of locations and the warrants that were met, sir.

Has any all-way stop sign been put up that you know of that hasn't met the warrant, the criteria?

Yes.

Thank you.

Could I ask where that request came from?

From you.

Thank you. I'm asking you again, on behalf of the sponsor of the bill, put a four-way stop sign at this location. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Is there anyone else who wishes to testify? UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Could I say something?

Yes, sir. Please 85 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 approach the witness table.

Yes. My name is Robert Polson (ph.).. I want to apologize first to this body. I wasn't apprised of these problems during the -- I guess after the a.m. hours. I do apologize for not knowing what was going on. But I'm just here mainly for Green Lane since it's three, maybe four years now since they did the bridge work. And it's been nothing but chaos 'cause nobody wants to put it back to normal where it was. And Councilman Nutter is my councilman, and I think the body right here can help us out. We need help up there -- not just the stop signs. I agree with this, and I do apologize to them again. There's more than 2,000 cars that go through Green Lane Bridge in the morning. I know it's not a part of this --

I don't want to cut you short, but --

But please can I just say -- I go to civic groups and I get turned off. We get promises. Jablonski's (ph.) not here, he 86 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 moved out and Moy took over. He says, We're going to pave Green Lane for you, then we'll re-mark everything, and that was before school started that didn't happen. We got ruts, we got holes, and you got to come down there slow; otherwise, your car can get thrown into the other traffic or onto the pavement. I know this I drive it every day, and it's a.m. and p.m. It stinks, it's terrible. We got to do something for the Manayunk people that live there, not for the people that come into the restaurants and stuff like that. The residents are being -- how would you say this? "Raped," I guess, is the word. Maybe not. Shortchanged. Whatever. Really, this is a problem. And I know it's been worked but we're not getting nowhere with it, and has to be looked at it. Really, somebody has to look at it and do something. Stop signs are needed for the kids -- that's the biggest thing. And I know Mary Jo and I know Josephine here. Again, I do apologize. I'm sorry, I didn't know the whole thing about this, but I came 87 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 down from Green Lane, and we need help. Please, somebody look at it.

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, could I just follow up on something Councilman?

Yes. Councilmember Rizzo?

Again to Mr. Trainor, I think there's another situation that we can resolve easily, and it might be working with Councilman Nutter's office on this. But it's the issue of the truck traffic. When I approach that -- when I go over the Green Lane Bridge from the expressway, I see a small sign that says "Trucks," and the arrow points both east and west on Main Street. To me, that is not adequate because it's just not big enough. There is apparently a sign, you heard earlier, that was there prior to the construction. That's been removed. Do you know, Mr. Trainor, are trucks prohibited from traversing Green Lane from Maine if they want to make it up to Ridge? Isn't that something you can fix quickly? If already that is 88 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 a prohibition, can't we just order signage to replace the one that once existed?

As far as we know, our records indicate that trucks were never prohibited. What we had out there at Maine and Green Lane was a warning sign. It was a yellow-and-black sign informing trucks of the hill and basically directing them north or south for Main Street -- on Main Street. We have subsequently, because of the construction of railroad bridge, or the rehabilitation of the railroad bridge, we have replaced that sign, and I believe we placed another sign actually on the Green Lane Bridge. I think we now have two -- one west of Main Street and one right at the intersection. These signs have been supplemented with the grade of the street to show that it's the 12 percent grade.

Right, 12 percent.

In addition to that, we have that particular sign -- it may not be at Ridge Avenue. It's within the stretch from Ridge to Maine for the westbound traffic. I'm not sure 89 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 which -- it may be at Manayunk Avenue, I'm not sure. We've also placed, and we are placing, green-and-white directional signs for I-76, and we're taking 'em up in a different manner from Ridge Avenue. So we've got a sign for northbound Ridge at Green Lane that's directing trucks, or directing anybody really, north on Ridge Avenue to pick up 76.

Now, you say that trucks have never been prohibited from Green Lane, from using Green Lane, and I don't know how long ago Traffic Engineering looked at that, but they were the days when we had a maximum length of a vehicle. Could I ask that that be revisited to see if -- could you explain what it would take to prohibit trucks? Because, Charlie, I don't know if you have ever used that roadway. You don't want to be coming in the opposite direction of an articulated vehicle on Green Lane when one's coming the other direction. It is absolutely scary, even if you're an extremely skilled driver. What does it take to prohibit trucks on 90 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 Green Lane?

Part of the biggest thing that is required is, where do you send 'em? Where do you send the trucks and where are you putting the trucks, what street, to get basically from the Riverside up the hill to Ridge Avenue? There aren't that many movements with a direct connection from, if you will, Main Street north. And each one of those streets -- and I can think of -- is it Leverington and Sherry's Lane, they also have residences and homes on 'em. They've got parked cars on 'em. So you've got the same situation. You may not have a steeper grade, you've got a grade. Don't have the winding roadway, as you do on Green Lane. So it's a question of where you're sending them to, or how do you direct them now up to Ridge Avenue and what pops up over there. Right now, we've given them a choice of which way to go. We're sending them north on -- we make the recommendation based on 12 percent grade that they go north or south on Ridge Avenue.

Could you -- if you're suggesting that they go north-south, could 91 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 you prohibit them and require them to go north-south?

We could post, I believe, again a green-and-white sign, which is not necessarily a regulatory sign; it's a directional sign and post it as a truck route.

Would you do that?

If someone tells us what truck route they want us to take these things through, I think we can post it, based on that.

Well, you're the Traffic -- the Sanitation Division on Domino Lane, I believe, has a process to keep their big trucks out of the residential area. I mean, I'm not a traffic engineer, but it's a no-brainer to send them over Umbria Street and up Domino lane.

In actuality, Councilman, Umbria Street, and I don't know where this came from, this predates my 1973 start in Traffic Engineering. I believe Umbria Street, at Leverington, prohibits trucks at night. So. . .

Yeah. Because the trash trucks were rumbling through there at all hours of the night when that incinerator was an 92 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990567 active incinerator. Now it's shut down and it's signs as usual. I always wonder when I drive through the city and I see sign that says "Deaf Child," that they might already be dead and buried. You know, they could be 70 years old, 80 years old by now.

On the Main Street end, if Councilman Nutter wishes, we will post a truck routing with green-and-white signs to use Leverington Avenue.

We'll have a discussion with the St. Lucy's Leadership Team about that and on any other issues out there, but I think the issue for today is what the folks came down here for. And, again, I would ask for the City's support on that particular report.

Thank you. One other thing, Mr. Trainor. I apologize for the tone of my voice. We've had several shouting discussions over the four years I've been here. And I understand your position, I understand the pecking order at the Department of Streets, and you do have to answer. Regardless of 93 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990568 what the warrants are and your interpretation of the PennDOT codes, you do have to answer to the Commissioner. And with all due respect from you, I believe in the future, when we have these issues, that I'm going to ask the Commissioner to come down to testify. Because, as you said, in the end, it's what he says what you will do. So, again, I apologize for the tone of my voice, but the Commissioner will be the person who will be attending these hearings when it comes to issues such as this. Thank you. And thank you all for coming. Will the clerk please read the title of the next bill.

Bill No. 990568, an ordinance authorizing the installation of all-way stop signs at the intersection of 65th Street and Lansdowne Avenue.

Councilmember Nutter?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To the best of my knowledge, there is no one to testify in person on Bill 990568, but I would, again, with the Chair's approval, like to 94 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990568 put forward a package of letters that are attached to the cover sheet of 990568 and ask that they be entered into the record as if they were read. Those letters are from Mr. Barry Drossner the principal of Cassidy School; Miss Armita Sims, who is the Overbrook Cluster Leader; and a resident, Miss Nancy Stone, at 842 North 56th Street. The issues at this intersection involve -- Cassidy School is within one-half block of this intersection. There many children crossing the street, there's a large traffic volume of cars and trucks, poor sight lines. It's reported that there are no traffic controls on Lansdowne Avenue between 66th and 63rd, and that there was a child hit by a car at this intersection last year, and also an accident between a school bus and a car. I don't have -- the one thing I believe I do not have is a letter, at least in my possession, from the Streets Department. We actually do have a letter from the Streets Department; I just don't have it in my possession at this time. I don't have any particular questions 95 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990568 for Mr. Trainor. Quite honestly, we might end up in the same discussion that we just had on the previous bill.

I think we can just get the testimony from the Streets Department and move on from there. Thank you.

Yes. Thank you.

Thank you, Councilman.

Thank you. Mr. Trainor.

The Department of Streets offers no objection to the passage of Bill No. 14 990568 authorizing the installation of all-way stop signs at the intersection of 65th Street and Lansdowne Avenue in a manner consistent with PennDOT regulations.

Thank you. Are there any questions for the witness?

Not to be ever accused of looking a gift horse in the mouth, but what exactly does that mean when you add in the provision "in accordance with. . ." -- are you putting in stop signs? 96 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990568

Councilman, if the intersection if warrants a stop sign in accordance with PennDOT regulations, we will install an all-way stop sign.

Okay. So your testimony is not actually that you're going to do it.

Right.

Your testimony is that you're going to study it, and if it complies, you will do it. If it doesn't, you won't, notwithstanding the existence of Bill No. 990568, or the passage of Bill No. 990568.

Yes, yes.

Right. That's what I thought. Okay.

Councilmember, I think you're engaged in conversation on the prior bill, which was the same testimony, and that's how we got into this debate.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any questions for this 97 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990569 witness? (No questions.)

Is there anyone else here who wishes to testify for or against this bill? (No response.)

Hearing none, the clerk will read the title of the next bill.

Bill No. 990569, an ordinance authorizing the installation of all-way stop signs at the following intersections on Indian Queen Lane: Haywood, Krail, Wiehle, and Vaux Street.

Very good. Mr. Chairman?

Councilmember Nutter?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are members of the community who have stepped up to the witness table, and I'd like, again, with your indulgence to give them the opportunity to be heard.

Thank you. 98 10/28/99 STREETS & SVCS. - 990569 Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record.