Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Hankowsky, I'd like to know exactly what the Greater Philadelphia Urban Affairs partnership does, step by step, when it monitors MBE and WBE participation on these types of projects.
Let me give you an overview. And as I indicated a moment ago to Councilman Ortiz, Mrs. Flynn is here, Laurie Flynn, who is the point person within the Goldenberg Group on that, and she may be able to further amplify these comments. But basically, the Goldenberg Group -- or in this particular instance, their Market Street Pavilion entity has engaged the Greater Philadelphia Urban Affairs Coalition. They are looking, for example, to give a specific example, at the payroll information monthly provided by the contractors of the workforce the contractors have engaged, to what degree is that workforce minority, to what degree is that workforce female, so that on a monthly basis, they can track that. They are looking at the actual bidding 57 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 of, for example, excavation as a bid package and what is that excavation contractor bringing in terms of minority and female and disabled firms as subs to that, what are the percentages, where are the contract, so that, you know, in a hard sense that there are contractual commitments in place. And then seeing in fact that those firms being employed, are they on the site, are they getting the percentage of the total package of that bid package that was evidenced in the contractual agreement. So they are sort of deep into following it on that kind of -- as it happens, on an ongoing basis.
I believe they report that -- they report it to the Goldenberg Group, and I believe specifically -- (Unidentified woman addresses Council inaudibly off mike.)
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you're going to have to come up to the table and identify yourself for the record and 58 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 respond, please. Yes, Councilwoman Tasco?
I was going to ask if we could ask the Urban Coalition to come forth 'cause I had some questions around their monitoring also. Maybe we could ask them to come to the table.
Would you, please. (Laurie Flynn comes forward.)
My name is Laurie Flynn, I'm a vice president with the Goldenberg Group. And, Councilwoman Miller, just to give you a little bit of an idea of what the Philadelphia Urban Affairs Coalition does for us is, they visit the site usually three or four times a week and physically inspect people who are working there. They also receive certified payrolls from anyone who is working on the site, which indicate age and race and gender and address, so that we can measure how many of the people working there are Philadelphia residents, race, gender, and all of these items. 59 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 In addition to that, however, what they are also doing with us in this instance is not simply monitoring this information after the fact as we make awards. Instead, we are proactively trying to look at all of the bid packages associated with this project and match opportunities to capacities in the City -- minority-, female-, and disabled-owned firms. So that's what we're doing together. (Charles Solomon comes forward.)
Good afternoon. My name is Charles Solomon, and I'm the Director of Economic Development --
I'm sorry, Mr. Solomon, would you pull that microphone closer to you, please.
All right. My name is Charles Solomon, and I'm the Director of Economic Development of the Greater Philadelphia Urban Affairs Coalition. I'd like to speak to our efforts in terms of this project and talk specifically about the two areas that we are monitoring or facilitating and monitoring -- the first being the 60 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 cracking area. On a per-bid package, per-trade area, we are reviewing each element of the work and identifying minority- and female-owned firms and disabled firms that are certified by the City's Minority Business Enterprise Council, providing that information to the bidders on the project if, in fact, we do not have a minority or a female prime contractors for consideration. We work very closely with the L.F. Driscoll Company and with the owners in reviewing the responses. In the event that a contractor who bids and he's the apparent low bidder, he or she's the apparent low bidder, that contract does not respond to the 22, 12 and 2 participation levels, we'd like to know why and we'd like to work with that contractor. So far we have about five packages that are on that's been bid, if you will. One is (unintelligible) in a contract which is with the Winsinger Company (ph.). They have committed to a 22, 12 and 2 participation level. At this point, we're asking them to give us a more clear definition about who and which firms they're going 61 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 to use. On the other packages, we've got reasonable participation, but we are still meeting with those contractors assure that we do get good participation. This is all more a proactive approach as opposed to waiting until after the fact, when the contracts are in fact awarded and we're going back, trying to clean up something.
What happens when you don't get good whatever number or percentage that might be participation? And I ask this because we constantly hear from vendors and contractors that just cannot seem to get a piece of this TIF action, and I believe that we have to -- maybe it's lack of information, but the information that I receive continuously is from contractors who cannot get a part of the TIF. And if it has to do with capacity or whatever problems might be there, then I need to know about that.
Okay. Well, there are contractors who have the capacity to perform work, 62 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 and by and large, those contractors are participating. Now, there are other contractors who may have some difficulties -- maybe their pricing is not right, maybe they're unable to secure a bond, there may be some problems associated with that. But by and large, we're getting participation. Now, are we getting it at the level we'd like to get it on the project we're affiliated with? In some instances, we are; in some instances, we are not. But what we're doing is working -- in this case, we're working with the contractors, meeting, discussing their participation and offering options for them to get real participation, or better participation. We're also working with the minority and female contractors to help them kind of increase their capacity. For instance, on this project, we had one minority firm that was interested in prime participation on one of the smaller structural steel packages. He worked that package up to the point where he had become to -- he came to the realization that he couldn't 63 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 perform the work, so he backed off, and now we're trying to get him some subcontract participation.
What I'd like to point out to you is if have heard that problem about this project, that's really something we want to know about. And if anybody hears that problem about this project, please contact us. I would like to know if you've heard that complaint about this project in particular, and I certainly hope not, but if anybody does, then we need to be made aware of that immediately. So sometimes the information is simply lacking and we don't know that there's somebody out there who could participate with us on the project, so we want to know that.
I have not heard any specific examples, but people -- the general attitude is, Well, here's another TIF that you guys are approving and we're going to be left out. Now, if I wanted to get information on a participation activity, then I could call your office because this gentleman gives you the weekly report or the monthly report?
Monthly report. 64 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186
Just for your information, it is also shared on a monthly basis with City Council technical staff, Marla Hamilton. So you can get it from us, you can get it from her -- a couple of ways.
And if we have a question about a particular contractor that's applied and hasn't heard anything, we can also get that information too, and if there's a capacity issue or any other issue then we'd know that, correct?
All right, thank you, Madam President. I don't have any more questions.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.
I'll yield for 65 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 Councilwoman Tasco to continue.
Thank you. Mr. Solomon, how many projects are you monitoring that are associated with City Council action?
Seven staff members. Are these staff members required to go out and monitor the various projects?
We generally agreed to a schedule of once to twice a week, sometimes three, depending on the size of a project.
If you find that a prime is not in compliance and you are trying to get that contractor in compliance and you're not 66 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 successful, where do you go to let -- how do you let us know what's going to happen? Or do you let us know?
Okay. Well, since we're contracted with an owner in most cases, that information goes to the owner. A great deal of whether or not a project is successful or not has to do with the commitment of the owners. And if the owners are clearly committed to making this thing happen, generally we'll get the kind of participation we'd like to get because it's a bottom line when we're taking about sitting down and negotiating with each contractor to get the appropriate participation really. So in instances where we reach a dead end, that dead end is generally at the owners -- at the owners' --
So if the owner is not really forceful in negotiating, do you come back to Council and say that you're having a hard time? 67 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186
Historically, we have not. I mean, again, we are contracted with the owners --
But through the will and desire of City Council to make sure what we bid on when we approve these contracts --
-- we ask, and everybody knows we're concerned about minority and women participation, so they go hire the Urban Coalition. And I'm like Councilwoman Miller; we constantly get complaints from contractors and workers that they are not on these projects, why do they ride by, they don't see any people of color or women on these projects. And nobody -- I don't hear from you saying that this is not happening.
And it's very frustrating that we sit here and we go through this charade every time and we are told we're going to have all this participation, and then we constantly have to spend a lot of staff time calling, trying to make sure that there is 68 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 participation on the project.
Well, I'd like to say this: you know, we do a great deal of research, if you will. We talk to the minority contractors, we talk to the majority contractors, and we're right on top of the problem. I think we've got a fairly good fix on why the problem exists, where there have been successes, where there have been failures. To solve this problem I think for us would be clearly to get some agreement from the owners. Again, we contract with the owners and get some agreement from the owners that we be able to provide City Council with whatever information they might want about a project, and we'll be glad to do it.
Well, I think that if there's public money in a project, I mean, we have a right to that information --
Thank you. 69 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186
Councilman Cohen, do you still want to be recognized?
Well, I didn't realize it went off. Thank you, Madam President. Just pursuing that for a moment, who do you mean when you say "owner"?
In this instance, we're contracted with the Goldenberg Group, and they're the developers for the project.
The one that we generally call "the developer" in these, that's the same person. Does -- do you monitor the contracts between the subcontractor and the general contractor?
Because the most frequent complaint in that area is that general contractors retain a portion of the amount of money, usually about 10 percent. 70 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186
And give to the subcontractor 90 percent. And then at the end of the work, when the subcontractor is getting his final payment and expecting to get all of the 7 percents that have accumulated, instead we're told 8 generally the subcontractors get a letter from the 9 contractor saying that you have not -- that 10 certain -- I'm using examples that may or may not apply -- windows or doors or other work was done improperly. Therefore, instead of getting, say, $10,000, which is the accumulated sum, you know, you're only going to get $2,000.
And is that monitored? If that happens, does your agency in any way offer any help to the subcontractor to determine whether or not that is a proper dispute? Most subcontractors believe that they are ultimately forced to accept a sharp reduction in the amount of money they feel is coming to them because otherwise, the contractor says, You're going to have to sue us, you're going to have 71 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 legal expenses, the case is going to go on for years, but if you accept instead of this $2,000 we're offered you or 3,000, you can have it now, otherwise we're going to give you nothing, and you're going to spend years, and most of these subcontractors are not in a position to get involved in litigation, pay the costs, and wait the time out. Now, does your monitoring include dealing with those kinds of problems?
Yes, it does. We take a look at final payment. We understand the retention approach -- the retainage approach, excuse me, where the 10 percent generally of the contractor's invoices is withheld pending acceptance of the work and the workmanship and the quality of the work. Now, in an instance where there is a dispute on projects that we're affiliated with, then we will sit down with both parties in trying to help resolve that issue really, you know, to the satisfaction of both parties. More often than not, the --
And you would 72 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 continue even beyond the end of the work period? Because often on the final payment, it only comes when the project is, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, completed.
We generally continue on a project 30 to 60 days after it's been accepted in terms of doing the final reporting, yes.
In the percentage figures that have been given as to the participation of female and minority employees, does the information that you monitor, does it include a breakdown by positions? Or is it an overall percentage, say, that there are percent 15 or 35 percent or 5 percent, whatever the number 16 may be, employed by this subcontractor or by this 17 contractor? 18
We break down the 19 employment in several different ways. We do it 20 based on the trade, the contract of the trade, the 21 individual's Social Security number, address, zip 22 code, etc. We have a fairly clear profile of each worker, where they work, and in what trade.
Well, if I told you that the general perception is that where the 73 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 overall figures appear to be good, it is generally because there is a heavy accumulation of employment at the lower levels; and as the skill level goes up, the percentage of participation goes down. Now, would there be truth to that? Would your statistics enable you to analyze that?
Yes. Generally, on a typical construction project, you have a heavy concentration of laborers on the front end. And as you get to the finishing trades and more skilled trades, the percentage of participation by skilled minorities and females tends to get lower. That's when we have to work a lot harder with the contractors, to make sure we maintain some type of reasonable level. But we keep a really clear detailed profile on each project. We track every hour of work, every person's work, where they work, and in what trade. And we develop the kinds of profiles that you're talking about each month, and it's available at any point really because it's a computerized program.
Excuse me. When you 74 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 talk in terms of maintaining a reasonable level of participation by minority and female employees at the upper levels, does that reasonable level, is that the same figure as the goals set forth in the contract? Or --
No, it's not. I mean, for instance, if a -- in this case, let's say for minorities, the goal's set at percent. 10
Now, that 22 percent 12 would be a combination of the participation at the 13 skill level and at the laborers' level, so it 14 would be a combination of the two that we speak to 15 total hours worked, 8 percent of total hours 16 worked. 17
Well, is it 18 possible, for example, that you may have a 19 situation which, at the lowest levels of pay, the 20 most unskilled, you might have 40 to 50 percent 21 minority, and at the upper levels of skill, you 22 might have as few as 5 to 10 percent, say, in an area where your overall goal may be 20 percent.
It's generally between the 15 and 20, 22 percent area for the field. 75 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186
For the skilled trades. And it's true that the unskilled or labor areas is generally between 40 to 70 percent, depending on the project.
Excuse me. When you set goals, do you have separate goals for the skilled and the unskilled?
Well when, for example, Mr. Hankowsky gave at the earlier part of the testimony the goals and the apparent meeting of those goals, he was dealing with the overall percentages.
Right. He mentioned the overall employment participation of 35 percent -- 30 percent minority and 5 percent females. And that's the overall goal for employment for this project. There is another breakdown that we do in our reports. It breaks down the skill levels and the --
Would there be a 76 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 specific goal with respect to skilled trades?
No, there is not. On this project, we do not have a goal for skilled trades exclusively, no, we do not.
To the best of my recollection, we have not had that on any projects.
So then I gather that when you talk in terms of goals, what you do is to say, we'll have an overall goal covering everybody, and we'll work hard, without figures, without knowing precisely what the figure will be. We get as much skills, you know, get the highest possible percentage that we're able to get at the skill trades, but we'll meet the overall goal really because we will go far, we will far surpass the goals at the unskilled level.
The effort is really to get more participation at the skill level because the labor level is a no-brainer.
That's what I thought. 77 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186
Roughly 80 percent of the laborers union are minority individuals, so that's not really an effort. We work more to get participation at the skill levels, and we do have an actual percentage on a monthly basis. We look at the skill level of participation and the labor level of participation each month, so we have a clear fix on just what that is at any given point in time.
Well, wouldn't it be more open and more direct then to speak not of the overall goals but to speak in terms of what our specific goals are at the skill level? Because I agree with you, I've never known -- I think I can say "never" known any instance in which there was a problem at the unskilled level. You know, if it happened -- you know, maybe it happened somewhere, but that's never been the problem. Except maybe for females, it may have been a problem, even at the very unskilled level.
But not the minority 78 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 participation. But we're really, when we're expressing our concern, we're expressing our concern at the higher skill levels, you know. And wouldn't it be more realistic and wouldn't we be in a position to have the better information so that we can deal with our constituents on it, if we knew at what level of skill, what the goal was, and how that goal was met? I know it would complicate Mr. Hankowsky's life because he'd have to tell us a number of goals rather than, you know, one single overall goal. But I think it would finally overcome this constant attention that the whole Council pays to this issue, because all us -- well, I can't speak for all of us, but I think the overwhelming majority of Councilmembers really want to be able to go to their constituency and say that if this projects develops, we want to make sure that there is a fair division of the work that goes to Philadelphians, that it's distributed fairly amongst all Philadelphians. I'm just concerned generally that the goals tell us nothing about those areas where the problems have existed in the past and which we're 79 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 aiming to correct.
Okay, well, let me say just the one thing. A part of the thought process behind the overall goal is to be able to measure economic impact in terms of dollars and taxes and that kind of stuff being paid. So that's part of that thought process, if you will. However, we clearly understand that the interest is really in getting more minorities and females into the skilled trades areas, and we're doing that. We try to work to offer as much opportunity as is available --"available" meaning the number of people available to work in the skilled trades areas. And we are augmenting that with training and apprenticeship programs and getting contractors to buy into that so that we can get more minorities and females into the skilled trades areas. And we are measuring it, but a lot of it has to do with availability.
Well, would it be a fair request to make of you or of Mr. Hankowsky or of Mr. Fina to tell us what your goals are for the skilled trades that are going to be involved in 80 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 the development of this project and then keep us informed as to the degree we're meeting that? Rather than dealing with the overall percentages.
And I would ask if that could be done, if it could be sent to the President who could then, you know, circulate it to the Councilmembers.
Right. Why don't we take a look at that. I only want to add for the record, though, that we do -- we are working with the owner or developers, present these plans, and actually, there is a dialogue between our office and Council's technical staff to do that. And I think perhaps, with the assistance of Council's technical staff, we could take a look at such a revision or perfection, or whatever it may be.
Well, I know that, but in addition to that discussion, could there be a calculation arrived at periodically as to what the goals are and how they've been met?
Could that be put in some written form to the President for circulation 81 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 to all of us? 'Cause all of us are not involved in these discussions with staff, and the staff has many problems that they're working on all the time, so that it isn't always convenient for them to get us the material at the time that we want it.
Yes. All right, very good then. That finishes that phase. I would like to ask if Miss Cutler would rejoin the -- oh, on that? Then I'll yield temporarily. Or I'll leave that to the President.
Just a moment, please. Councilwoman Miller, do you have questions of this witness? And you do, too, Councilman? Okay, your light's been on for quite a while, Councilwoman, so I would recognize you at this point in time.
Okay, thank you, 82 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 Madam President. Mr. Hankowsky, when you sit down in the initial stages with the owner of the project and discuss the minority and women and disabled participation levels, one of the problems that I keep hearing from various agencies, and as Mr. Solomon just stated, that if the owner doesn't buy into this, it doesn't happen -- or it's more difficult to get the participation levels that we really want without the owner. Are there any ways that you can think of that would help the owners, and perhaps Councilpeople could be informed? And maybe there's some resistance to participation. And sometimes it may not be the owner; it could be the persons that are sending the messages right under the owner. But I guess I'm just a little bit frustrated that we keep coming here and talking about the same thing each time there's a TIF -- with minority participation and just fair, equitable access to projects from everybody, all residents of Philadelphia. And I'm just thinking that maybe this is for a different later 83 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 discussion. But I wonder if there's something that you've come up with. I'm glad I heard Mr. Solomon say at the trade level, where you're talking about training programs and apprenticeship programs, and I would hope that you will work with the Philadelphia school system so that that could all be built in, and those types of needs could be built in to the curriculum. It's amazing. I did not know that someone is -- if you want to get into the sheetmetal workers' apprenticeship program, you needed trigonometry. I had no idea of that. But it told help us too. But what is it with the owners? We had Mr. Rafdal here from Kvaerner. He said he was very, very committed to meeting the goals of the project, but it appeared that it was the vice president, or whatever his title was, right under him that was not as committed to those goals. 'Cause I, as a Councilperson, am very committed. If we're spending public money, as far as I'm concerned, it has to be for everybody, and everybody should have an economic development 84 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 opportunity to participate. So that's what I'd like to know. What do you think? I know it's --
I'm not really sure what the question is, but let me just say that we, I think -- again, I'll never say "all of the time" because maybe once, you know, we didn't do it. But I think basically, in every instance where we begin a discussion, I think we always do it literally at that first meeting, when people are seeking, for example, a TIF or whatever. And we advise them that one of things that they need to understand, they need to appreciate, and they need to buy into is an equal, you know, opportunity plan that would be part that, that would have to be done prior to coming to this body, that would have to be something that, you know, quote/unquote, wasn't just "words on paper," but that they would have to actually execute and perform. And so we try to do that. And then, as Mr. Solomon points out, you know, in some instances, they engage -- the Urban Affairs Coalition or others to work with them to either 85 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 put that plan together, implement that plan in a proactive sense, and/or monitor that plan. There clearly are instances -- you know, there could be instances where, as you very, I think, correctly pointed out, where there's a commitment and something -- you know, it's some other person in the chain of command or whatever, it falls down, and that we try to jump on those problems as quickly as possible.
Well, I want to set up a meeting and just kind of talk about some of this later. I completely understood what you said, but there still must be a breakdown somewhere 'cause we would not hear from as many people as we hear from if things were going okay.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam President. I agree that there needs to be a 86 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 continuing effort to expand the skilled trades minority participation, female and minority participation. And, for example, I'll point to one in particular trade that has experienced a full points increase in minority membership 7 over the past three or four years, from a 7 8 percent minority component to almost a 20 percent 9 minority component. 10 The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers have actually gone out and attempted to create programs to be attractive to African-American minorities and Latino and Asian minorities, male and female. And I think that that needs to be expanded and encouraged in those other skilled trades. But I don't want anyone reading this record to come away with the belief that somehow, the position of laborer and the contracts negotiated by the International Association of Laborers and Mr. Staten is somehow less dignified in wage-earning and family-raising work that someone reading this record might indicate. And for the record, if you know on this project and in general terms, what's the hourly 87 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 wage rate of a laborer under prevailing wage conditions? First, the hourly rate and then the benefit the fringe benefit rate. If you know that from your experience.
Not exactly, but I'll say the rate's somewhere in the 23, dollars per 8 hour. 9
So on top of that, 21 whatever the average percentage is, benefits 22 versus hourly rate, we're talking in the 23 $30-an-hour range? 24
See, again, I'll 88 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 preface my statement by saying that I want to see more minority men and women laying pipe and wiring and doing other types of rod-setting and other things. But to somehow characterize a laborer position at 30-some dollars an hour I think is a mischaracterization. And I think that if Mr. Staten were here today, he would be the first one to step to the mike to say that he negotiates the best wages and rates for his people. And if this job, as I understand it is, is a prevailing-wage job, then those protections, both Statewide and with the passage of our own prevailing wage ordinance, provides those protections for many individuals in the laborers union who are earning dignified, family-raising wages. Do you agree with that?
I agree with that totally. The issue was simply around what we'd want to call, I guess, "equitable participation." There is significant participation in the laborers union and viable participation in terms of people being employed, earning reasonable incomes. 89 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 The only concern was that when you look at the other trade areas, once you get passed the electricians and the carpenters, you see a sharp downturn in terms of overall participation. That was the only consideration there.
And I agree with you, and I also agree that those continuing efforts in apprenticeship, training, and other types of training, in order to get our young people from every neighborhood in the City involved in every aspect of the construction industry, I think is absolutely critical. But I didn't want anyone to go away from this room today thinking that somehow being a card-carrying union member of the laborers union somehow has put you in a second-class status as a result of the construction industry, and I think the laborers union would take objection to that.
My second question and final question is, in your opinion, as an individual who is involved in this day to day, what is your estimation of the efforts of this particular developer as it relates to this 90 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 particular project in trying to meet the goals that have been set initially?
I think from the very, very start, we started to talk about this project when we sat down to talk about participation levels. It's been very proactive. We've worked on it on an element-by-element basis. We've been very, very aggressive and very, very pointed in talking or dialoguing with the construction management firm and with contractors to speak to that participation as being real, and we really want this to happen. So, you know, again, we have four or five packages now, and we are scheduled to meet with four of the five contractors to talk about participation. We've also gone forward at the suggestion of the owner to identify capacity trade area matches, if you will, to start talking about where we can get better participation, knowing that on some packages, we will get less participation because of the lack of availability. And we will look at packages where there's higher availability to get better participating. 91 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 So I think this has been a win-win kind of a relationship so far.
Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam President. Just before I leave, though, I'd like to -- I have an appointment and I'd like to leave my vote -- aye on all three of the bills before the committee today.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.
Excuse me, excuse me, Councilwoman. Councilman, are you also in favor of the amendments?
Yes. I'd like to be recorded as voting aye on all amendments and on the final bill coming out of committee.
One of the problems that causes the decline in the 92 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 participation of skilled workers on these projects is because of the lack of participation of at least minorities into the labor trades. And I'm glad that the electricians are improving their participation, and we have to hope that the others will follow suit. Because (unintelligible) does have far more people down there awaiting to work than when they probably would like to go into other skilled trades. The Mayor has an executive order which requires training on projects of this nature. And do we seek to train people in this? Do the unions agree to provide the training on projects of this nature? 'Cause this is the issue that is a constant refrain all the time around these projects, and we get sort of like some quick fix,"We're going to do this," and you and I know it doesn't happen. Can there be any training? It has nothing to do with the developer. You know, your intentions are good. But what happens and what do you do to see that the training takes place? Are you aware of the executive order?
Yes, I'm aware of it. On 93 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 this particular project, we've had some discussions with OHCD, and we've talked about being responsive to the Section 3 requirements and getting an agreement, if you will, from the contractors to employ more apprentices -- specifically from Congreso 'cause they're doing it already, they have some people on deck to take advantage of apprenticeship opportunities. Our role now is to develop those opportunities within the contracting community, those contractors on this project. The coalition. We're involved in several different training activities geared to the same thing in terms of the -- that are kind of project-specific to train individuals from the community, to get them to the apprenticeship test and pass, and then get those folks placed with the contractors.
Okay, we won't burden the record further -- at least I won't, but we do plan to come back to this issue. And Mr. Hankowsky, I appreciate your offer to Councilman Cohen to look at how we could probably incorporate in the contracts the skills 94 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 level requirements as opposed to a general overall participation.
Councilwoman Tasco spoke about the minority participation piece, and this gentleman here, you mentioned Congreso de Latino Unidos. Congreso has been working with me and a couple members of this Council in order to do exactly what you're talking about, and I've done some things with Alva Martinez and Congreso, Councilwoman. And what she is doing up there is way ahead of her time. The problem with the building trades -- and I think I can speak freely with that and openly since I came from the building trades and from the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers that Councilman Kenney spoke about with our minority participation piece. What Alva has done is, she has taken 95 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 young Latino and African-American minority youths and schooled them in being able to take the apprentice test. But what everyone needs to understand is, there's not a gate open where there's -- the electricians can take a thousand people, no matter what color, shape or size or who they are. And the sprinkler fitters -- nobody mentions the sprinkler fitters. The sprinkler fitters are currently working with Alva and Congreso. The carpenters are working with Alva and Congreso. We're talking to the sheetmetal workers, we're talking to the plumbers, we're talking to the operating engineers. And there's just not a gate where there is a thousand people or even a hundred people. Every union -- the electricians I can speak for 'cause we negotiate in our contract how many apprentices we can take every year, so it's negotiated. If it's a three-year contract, we may take 25, 50, 100. But Congreso is one of the only organizations that I've found that is actively having people come up and take these tests. So 96 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 when that apprentice test opens in April -- in fact, the electricians is open now, this week and next week, and you come up, you fill out an application, you take a test. Now, you have to pass a test. You can know everybody in the union, but if you don't pass that test -- and it's not a fail/pass; it's low, medium and high, and they start with the highs, then work down to the mediums and then work down to the lows. But what happens is, if everybody comes in high and there's not enough openings, they'll have to wait another year and another year. So it becomes very burdensome. But Congreso has been doing great things. They have people train for the test. So if the electricians aren't available, the plumbers may be. It's pretty much the same test. It's a mechanical aptibility (sic) test. And you brought up Congreso, and they're doing things way ahead of time, and it's about time that all happens. Thank you.
Thank you. Councilwoman Tasco do you want to 97 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 continue? Thank you. Councilman Cohen, do you want to be recognized?
One more with him before Miss Cutler. You are a part of the Urban Affairs Coalition that's monitoring?
Yes. I am the Director of Economic Development Projects for the Greater Philadelphia Urban Affairs Coalition.
Where does Mr. Underwood fit in? He works for the City?
Who is the person in charge of monitoring for Kvaerner? Mr. Roundtree? And is Mr. Roundtree with the City or is he a part of the Coalition monitoring group?
And you're with the 98 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 Coalition, and the Coalition has been hired by the developer or by the City? Who hires the Coalition?
The developer hires the Coalition to see that these goals are met.
Very good. I just wanted that cleared up. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Can you stay here? (Addressing Mr. Solomon.)
I still have some things I want to speak about. My main concern, and every time we do a public project, we come up here and do the same thing. And the Urban Coalition piece, what you need to do here. I mean, are we trying to get minority contractors and minority tradeswomen and tradesmen? Is it a double thing we're trying to 99 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 do here?
Because what I would see is like if the contractor is a minority or isn't a minority, the contractor, especially if it's a prevailing-rate job and they're union, they have to go back to the same union hall and hire the same men and the same women. So if it's not a minority contractor, or if it's a minority contractor, they're the same workers. So is three anything that the workers actually -- not just the contractors -- the workers have to have a minority participation number?
Right. So if Michael Nutter owns the contracting company or I own it, we're going to hire the same people, okay? 'Cause if hiring electricians, we're hiring out of the same union hall. So if they have to be -- if there's 20 electricians and, what, 10 of 'em have to be minorities, we're going to get the 100 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 same people. Is that the goal here?
Well, no. The point for both areas as it relates to the contractors, we're looking to increase capacity. I mean, if contractors do more work, get more projects, an increase in the sophistication of their work, they're able to hire more people. Yes, there's a moving number of people in the electricians union at this particular point in time. But we also understand that in many of the skilled trade areas, there's an under- representation of minorities and even a greater under-representation of females. So what we're attempting to do, along with Congreso and other organizations, is to get more folks into the unions. Now, what we've been doing is to, on a per-project basis, talk to the contractors who are on the project and get their cooperation. For instance, the electricians is the only union that has helpers, which is a real easy fix for us.
Well, we only have helpers with the kindness of the business office and the kindness of the contractors, but that 101 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 could end tomorrow because there's really -- there's helpers but there's not helpers, ya know what I mean?
If the apprentices are out of work, there's no helpers.
If the journeymen are out of work, there's no apprentices.
That's correct. We're getting the cooperation of the unions across the board. We're working on them one by one, and it's just a matter of getting more apprentices in the pipeline, and that's working. So we want to see just where it goes.
While we're on this, there's a couple things I want to ask you and a couple things I want to say -- only because 102 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 I have a background.
And it's something that's been important for me, working with Congreso 'cause Alva has a great heart, and she understands. Getting kids to the table to take the test is great, but they have to be prepared to take the test, and it may take three months, it may take six months, it may take a year. But she has the wherewithal in trying to get her funds to be able to do that. The problem as I see it is with women. There's not a lot. I was an apprentice in 1977, 1978. There was a lot of women in my apprentice class, and I say a lot -- in that days, there was ten, and there's one left There's not a history in the building trade, and we look for it. I mean, we actively look for women. And maybe the first ten years, we didn't know where to look. But now (unintelligible) Congreso, we're getting women. But for a woman to come in here the last four years and decide, Whoa, this isn't for me, to do all this stuff, go through the whole training, waste all the money, and then 103 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 decide, Oh, ya know, I think I'm going to do this. There's no women in the building trades that are in their 50s and 60 years old that have been doing this. So what we need to do is to make sure -- and I don't know how you do that, but maybe you could help me and the building trades with that. Maybe you could -- is there a way? I mean, they have to be serious when they -- it can't be a ten-year fix, it has to be 15, years 11 to be able to last and get their pension and their 12 annunity. 13 'Cause, you know, one of the women in 14 my class is a contractor. One of the guys I 15 worked for is a contractor, Larry McCray (ph.), 16 and Larry does well because of where he is in 17 life. 18
The situation is changing 19 as it relates to women. We have one project that 20 we just checked a few weeks ago. There's 17, 18 women working on that project, which is --
Well, it's a blend, it's a blend, but it's probably half and half, which is 104 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 unusual. So it's changing. We've found also that women tend to do better in the apprenticeship testing and that kind of stuff. So the point is that we've got to keep working away at it and plugging away at it.
Well, I personally think women can handle the physical demands of the job but I just think there's no one to mentor them that's 50 or 60 years old to say, Look, kid, I've been doing this 40 years. I had my father, I had my uncle, I knew what was going to happen. There's no women in their 50s and 60s that can say, "Stick with it, there's a light at the" -- they should be out in their 50s anyhow, 55. But that's what we need to do with women. We need to make sure that they're serious about this because all they're doing, if they're only in it for two years, is taking the space of somebody else, you know. And in my world, it's whoever needs it really wants to be in it, you know, regardless of race or what sex they are. I mean, whoever can do it do and do the job and build the building, it's great if they're women, it's great if they're 105 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 Latinos. But, you know, we've got to make sure that there are people that understand this. This is a lifelong commitment and it's not easy. If it was easy, I wouldn't be sitting here right now; I'd be --
The one problem that when you get to the skilled trades in terms of the building trades and so on is that currently, the level of minorities in those trades doesn't rise to a very high percentage. And if you take 'em by trade -- carpenter, electrician and so on, and Congreso is doing a good program. But even if all of the individuals, for example, that Congreso trains, they may not rise up to being percentage of the membership of the electricians, for example. So what we have is that we have a -- 106 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 because of all those years, and we've been here since 1984 arguing about these issues. And which we had the Convention Center, we had the hotel boom from '84 to '91, and the percentages haven't grown. I've seen some of the new leadership that is coming into the trades and it's good because they're talking about really opening up the process. But the numbers are not there within the trades. The numbers don't reach -- at least from the Latino perspective, they don't reach even to a percentage -- in any of the trades. And if you go into African-American, I don't think we get to 6 or 7 percent of the trades at that level. So we have a problem that we have to be able to address very clearly in terms of as we go building all of these new buildings in terms with City money and City contracts. And I'm very glad that we have leadership like Johnny Dougherty and some of these other folks that are talking about opening up that process. But it is not yet there at that point.
Can I -- 107 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186
May I just say that I do want nine Councilmembers to be present in order for us to be able to vote this bill up or down. We are losing members because they have other commitments, so I would please urge, if there are questions or statements to be made, that they be very, very brief.
Back to Councilman Ortiz, can I just say ask the Councilman --
To Councilman Ortiz through the Chair, your statement, and I understand it, but what do we do, throw the baby out with the bath water? I mean, that's where we are, and I appreciate that. And I've only been here since 1996, and I've only been involved with the union, and I don't take that as a personal attack. But I mean, this is a question. So what do we do? I mean, we're trying to get the 108 4/8/99 - COMM. OF THE WHOLE - 990110, 990186 minorities in, they have to be schooled, and I explained at the beginning that we continue what we're doing, but we have to have some faith in -- like you said, you mentioned the leadership up there, but that has to keep happening, you know? I mean, they get disillusioned there's other members in there who have been in there for years that may not have been -- that are not minorities, and they still have a fair shake at the jobs, too. So that's what everyone has to understand.