Mm-hmm. Is the 176 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 community organization a community development corporation? What's the concept? I asked for details.
All right, thank you very much. But the School District will not get revenue for a certain number of years?
-- certain taxes that you approve, which will go to pay to the TIF notes that's been proposed, such as the tax on liquor served from restaurants and bars associated with the project. That tax cannot be TIFed that would enure to the benefit of the School District.
The 55 percent increment the new tax will pay the TIF note for years and in 25 effect only be 26 it will be 23. 177 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610
What's the School District going to lose in real estate taxes during the life of the TIF?
How long would it take the School District to make up for what it loses?
From what? Which sense would it make up from this particular project?
Isn't that one of the figures we must have in this project? When you get to the School District, don't you tell them they're going to lose 10 million or more over the length of this? And after passage of a certain amount of time, you'll get that back plus get extra money back because of the development? How long will it take the School District to get that 10 million back?
Well, during the life of the TIF, the School District will receive $5.4 million. I would say it would take approximately 178 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 years for it to get the additional 10 million more.
Just going on the back of 6 the (unintelligible) calculation, Councilman. 7
I don't think the 8 School District, even with a 10-day term, would 9 have voted for that if they understood how much 10 money they would be losing and how long it would 11 be before they ever even got it. 12 Now I can yield to Councilman Goode if 13 you'd like. I just wanted to finish that 14 question. 15
Thank you, Madam 18 President. The economic stimulus fund used for 19 this project, what's the source of those funds, 20 from a tax lean sale? 21
It's basically a funded 22 amount of money appropriated by Council out of the 23 economic -- out of the surplus and that came to 24 PIDC. 25
There are two 179 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 sources of those funds proceeds. One was (inaudible), and the other was from the tax lien sale. The point I'm making is the timing of this project. The source is actually from a tax lien sale and those funds are split between economic development projects after half of that money went to the School District; is that correct?
I'm not certain, Councilman. I don't know what happened to those. That's a City question.
City questions which I choose to delve into a pot of money from the tax lien sale split between the School District and for economic development projects. So essentially any time we spend money on economic development projects out of that money, the money you're pulling is from the School District; isn't that correct?
A second question. The $7.5 million being spent on that property, rather than going to the School District, how many different owners of property does that go to? 180 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610
The 7.5 million? That went to whatever the ownership that was there.
Except for being acquainted in the neighborhood, I know there was a gasoline company that owned -- Clinic Alliance was the center and there was a series of owners, McDonald's and some other.
McDonald's owns a 181 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 major piece of this real estate there, correct?
I can get that information from the Redevelopment Authority for you.
A significant piece of this real estate was owned by a major company or several major companies that found economic use for it in the past. From my understanding, having sat on the other side of the table as well, the only reason why McDonald's was not developing there was not because it's not a prime piece of real estate. They decided they'd simply sell it rather than compete with other businesses within North Philadelphia; is that correct?
I've heard that from the Redevelopment Authority, but that wasn't a part of the negotiation so I can't give you --
If we're going to do 182 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 TIFs in those neighborhoods, as the Commerce Director said, in terms of the new strategies laid out for TIFs, that there be a neighborhood benefit strategy and that it be that all TIFs be incorporated as part of neighborhood plan, which is a serious issue. If you have major corporations like McDonald's who simply (inaudible) major corporation, then this land might have been developed otherwise. Thank you, Madam Chair.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I've actually tried to follow the line of questioning from Councilman Cohen regarding the School District. And you recall that I posed a question to the Commerce Director referencing 2, the fifth line down. Could I trouble you to please turn to that page. The quote says: Project benefits include 230 construction jobs, 57 permanent jobs 183 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 and new annual average tax revenues of $275,000 for the School District. Again, I state that I softly support the TIFs because of the prospective potential benefit to the School District. When does this 275,000 kick in? And how do you get that figure?
You multiply times the 9 275, which gets you the aggregate amount of tax 10 revenue that the School District would not receive 11 if the property stays the way it is. This is an 12 increase to the School District over those 26 13 years, that's the average amount over this 26 14 years. If the property stayed the way it is 15 today, the School District would get an amount 16 less than 275, and I provided that in the project 17 plans that you receive. 18
Okay. My comment 19 is that the upside is that it's $2.1 million; the 20 down side is that in the life of a TIF, it's very, 21 very, very little. Why is it that the School 22 District reviews these proposals before they come 23 to City Council? Is that a practice by statute, 24 is it legislation? Why is it done that way? 25
That's by statute. The TIF 184 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 Act, as it's referred to, requires that the School District indicate its participation by resolution 4 in the TIF by the date of the public hearing.
And my final question would be, and now I'm asking for your opinion. Does the School Board support these TIFs because of this very, very nominal benefit or what would be your opinion, your observation, response on their support of TIFs? I'm interested in your opinion.
You're interested in my opinion. Well, they vote unanimously and enthusiastically because they understand that the benefits outweigh the negatives of the project.
And as a former member of the board, I think that Mr. Alston is very able to respond.
I just thought I would add a footnote to what Mr. Fina has indicated with regards to the presentation of TIFs to the Board. Having been through that a number of times during 185 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 my tenure on the Board, let me say that it has been -- each time that Mr. Fina comes with a presentation, we have had a very healthy discussion, a very exciting, I might say, discussion and some disagreement at times. And we've been -- we went through -- the time I was on the board, we went through these TIFs word by word and line by line to ensure that the School District's position was at its best. And in each case, we came to some unanimous decisions, not without discussion and study. They were very educated decisions about TIFs from the Board's perspective.
Thank you. Are there any other questions from members of the committee? (No further questions.)
Shelly, I believe you're next. Would you please identify yourself for the record.
Thank you. I'm Shelly Yanoff, with the Philadelphia Citizens for 186 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 Children and Youth. Thank you for the opportunity. I'll be very brief. I just want to say that I don't have testimony, but other than (inaudible) School District taxes from TIFs because, in fact, it does take a long time, as Councilman Cohen just suggested, and it really will be 50 years so that the great grandchildren of the children who are starting kindergarten today will get the benefit of growth that the economic stimulus package provides. I think that if we look at what we were talking about yesterday, and Councilman Cohen's characterization of education as economic stimulus, that if we continue to give hundreds of millions of dollars for business opportunities, we ought to set aside a specific piece of that for children and families who live in the communities. So thank you very much.
Thank you. I believe we have Mr. Stanley Fields, a resident of the community, that would like to testify. (Witness comes forward.)
Good 187 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 afternoon, sir. Thank you for your patience.
Good afternoon. I'm Stanley Fields. I live at Academy House, which is directly across from the proposed parking lot at 15th and Spruce. We, the residents of the Academy House, are very concerned not so much about the parking lot. We do know that we will have lots and lots of traffic jams and all of those other inconveniences, but we are concerned that the commercial proposal on the ground level contain a supermarket. It's very important that we have one, because at the moment, we only have a very inadequate one, and that with the increasing population that is down there at 15th and Chestnut, it was just built. We are just asking that some part of the community be recognized and that plans be made for a supermarket. We've circulated petitions for that around Academy House, and I'm sure if they circulated that in the other apartment buildings, they would do the same thing. We are in desperate need for that. A facility for food in the area is absolutely nil, or almost nil. We have just a 188 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 very small supermarket food right now that services thousands and thousands of people, and it just is not possible to do that if there's going to be an increase in population, which there has been in the last couple years. As you know, many office buildings in the area converted to high-rise apartment buildings and that has put a strain on the market also.
Thank you. I'm sure if you give the petitions to the District Councilman, Mr. Clarke, he would certainly be more than happy to take them and work with your community to see how he can be of assistance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I've actually already received copies of the petitions and a letter, and I've forwarded them to the developer, and the developer has indicated a willingness to discuss with both the community and the office the possibility of entertaining the possibility of a 189 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 supermarket at this site.
Thank you for your patience, sir. Do we have anyone else to testify on these bills? (No response.)
I'm just waiting for my colleagues, then we'll go into our public meeting.
In the last two days, we have seen two different types of hearings. We had a hearing yesterday that dealt with children and having very little money for them, and we heard a multitude of excuses and a multitude of barriers and reasons of why putting a certain amount of money, a small amount maybe, for 190 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 the benefit of children was deemed not doable. As George Bush would like to say, "It's not prudent." Not prudent for whom? Not prudent, of course, for the individuals that get the largesse of government. For over 30 years, 40 years, I have heard the argument about welfare queens and welfare kings and how the poor are living off the government, and all of these pictures and dramas were created, and now we have the rich living off the government. And it's okay. Nobody questions it. Because they're -- they supposedly have the goose that lays the golden egg and that golden egg leads to prosperity for all. And we have had now in the last eight years, with this year coming to a close, nine years, a continuing largesse from government, and it's taken under the guise -- under the guise that but for this, this would not happen, and that 50 years from now, there will be some -- 50 years from now, there will be some benefit, 20 years from now, there will be some benefit to the people of Philadelphia. Meanwhile, we can't build new schools, we cannot pay our teachers a good salary, we 191 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 cannot give all of the instruments that are needed. And strangely enough, as Shelly has said, other jurisdictions have found a way to still give the rich their due but to exclude the educational and the Board of Ed. from the largesse. Yesterday, we talked about a small little fund for children, but many reasons were put forward of why it could not be done. And today, a lot of reasons are -- we keep on giving this largesse to those who less need it in our society. I just hope that at one point in my lifetime, we can come to a conclusion that kids need more money and that we begin to treat it as such. And that capitalism, I always thought that capitalism worked -- that's what they keep telling me, that this society is working because capitalism is becoming the working force and government is instrumental in developing richness is socialism, socialism. Read your books. And that we are socially engineering. That's what liberals are, we are social engineers. We're using the instruments of law and legislation to socially engineer a city and we make it very 192 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 wealthy in the center and very poor in the peripheries and we give that none. And every time a hearing is held about kids, we find reasons why it cannot be done instead of finding reasons to do it. We just keep on finding reasons why it cannot be done. We had the issue of bus tokens, a very simple $2 million issue, and we kept finding reasons for why it could not be done. I just want at one point, before I live to be as old as David Cohen, to have one hearing in which we find reasons of why we must support a children's fund or tokens for kids or making it possible for individuals to work and be able to do certain things. Simple things like that. I'm just tired of voting in the manner in which we keep making people richer and richer.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.
Thank you, Madam President. I'll be brief, 'cause Councilman Ortiz has basically stated some of the concerns I have. 193 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 Yesterday we had a hearing on what other cities are doing across this country to support children and families, and we heard from San Francisco who -- that city has come up with some very creative ways to fund their children's fund. One is a property tax assessment and others are from the hotel tax and if the sports team all give something back to children, and I think that if we're going to value our children and families in this city, we have to send a message that we want to provide the support that's needed, and if we're going to create a workforce in this city that is responsible and educated, we have to focus on the needs of children. I again will reiterate to members of the Administration, rather than tell us why they can't do it, we want them to tell us how to do it, and our hearing was recessed until the 11th of December. We hope to come back with a proposal that we can put forth that sends a message that this city does care for children in a meaningful way. We do have supportive programs but they're all -- most organizations are fighting for crumbs and we give millions and millions of dollars, of 194 11/14/00 - WHOLE - BILL 000609, 610 tax dollars, away that we should keep to fund our children and families. But in the interest of stimulating economic development and growth in the City of Philadelphia, we do that. But we can no longer do it without finding some mechanism to require that these developers give back because they are not poor people, they have plenty of money, and they can give 1 percent on the garage, which would yield only $62,000, and we know that that money would cost no one anything. And $62,000 for a $35 million project is peanuts. So we will continue with this discussion, but you're going to hear it over and over and over again until we set this fund up. Thank you.
Thank you. Are there any other statements from members of the committee? (No further statements.)
Seeing none, this will conclude the Committee of the Whole. We will now go into the public meeting, and the Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke. 195 11/14/00 - WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
Thank you, Madam Chair. I make a motion that Bill No. 609 be reported out of the Committee of the Whole with a favorable recommendation and a suspension of the rules.
Strike that. I move that it be reported out with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and properly seconded that Bill No. 609 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation. All those in favor will signify by saying aye. Those opposed?
The record 196 11/14/00 - WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING will indicate that Councilman Goode voted nay. All other people present voted in the affirmative, and Bill No. 000609 has been reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke regarding Bill No. 000610.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I make a motion that Bill No. 610 be reported out of the Committee of the Whole with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and properly seconded that Bill No. 610 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation. All in favor will signify by saying aye. Those opposed, nay?
The record will indicate that Councilman Goode voted nay and that all other members present voted in the affirmative, and Bill No. 610 has been reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation. 197 11/14/00 - WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING Thank you all very much. Before you all leave, I read in the paper yesterday that one of our colleagues celebrated a birthday, and I certainly want to wish him a very happy birthday, a healthy one, and many, many more years to come. Happy birthday, Councilman Cohen. (Applause.) (Adjourned at 2:25 p.m.) - - - 198 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Tuesday, November 14, 2000, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE BILL NO.'S 000609, 000610 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter