Thank you.
Okay, Chair, we have 15 attendees.
You can proceed.
Perfect.
Thank you.
Good morning.
My name is Bill Bergman, and I will be chairing this morning's EBA hearings.
With me is our Vice Chair, Ismail Shahid, our Board Member, Thomas Holliman, and our Board
member James Snell. President, Mr. Chairman. Also here is Hillary Emerson, our attorney,
and our executive director, Tanya Sunket. Here's our virtual format. Be advised the proceedings
are being recorded. The video will be available by contacting tanyasunket at phila .gov. For the
benefit of our court stenographer, we ask attorneys and witnesses to identify themselves before
testifying. If you're participating by phone and you wish to testify, press star nine to raise your
hand and star six to unmute. To enter an appearance statement, call 267 -270 -5548. Leave your email
and the address of the property in question. Finally, the question answer box on the screen
is not for comments or testimony. All comments should be directed to our executive director,
Tanya sunk it. Let's look at this morning's schedule.
Number four, MI -2022 -004 -546 -3251 Fox Street. That case is continued attorney moving party.
Number six, MI 2022 -007 -568 -5306 -08 Haverford Avenue.
Vern Anastasio is the attorney.
I believe he has a request for contenders.
Mr. Anastasio.
Good morning, Chair.
My name is Nadia, and I will be your co -host.
Thank you. Anastasio has been allowed to speak.
Good morning, counsel. Could you state your name, please?
Good morning, Mr. Chair. Vern Anastasio, V -E -R -N.
Last name is A -N -A -S -T -A -S -I -O, 2016 Spruce, Philadelphia.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
I understand you have a request for a continuance for 5306 -08 Haverford Avenue.
I do, Mr. Chair. My client would like to continue to engage the immediate neighbors in a hope of coming to an accord.
Okay. We're going to make this must -be -tried, okay?
Thank you.
All right. So MI -2022 -007 -568 -5306 to 08 Haverford Avenue. Cases continued. Mark must -be -tried.
Thank you very much.
Sure. And number seven, MI 2023 -003 -967 -2431 North 26th Street. This case is continued.
Are there any other requests for continuance?
We have two hands. DeMarco has been allowed to speak.
Okay. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I'm accommodating Len with this continuance.
I know. Mr. DeMarco, just for the record, state your name so we could.
Of course. Sorry. Yes. Richard DeMarco, D -E -M -A -R -C -O.
Right. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
And we're, I understand, and we're making this a short continuance.
Yeah, that's all I wanted to ask, Mr. Chairman.
Yep. We're doing, we're working on that right now, sir.
I appreciate that. Thank you very much.
Okay, thank you.
Right.
Have a good day.
Any other requests for continuance?
I see no hands.
Okay. Exhibits. We have a few cases here with no exhibits. Number one, MI 2022 -006 -978 -2030 Ripley Street. This is the third listing. We have no exhibits.
Listed owner is Andy Barrios.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Alvin Garcia is the listed owner.
I see no hands for Alvin, but...
I see no hands for Alvin, but I do see a Pincus with the hands raised.
Let's see who they are.
They've been allowed to speak.
Hi, could you state your name, please, and spell for the court sonographer?
Yes, my name is Ralph Pincus. Can you hear me, Mr. Chairman?
I can.
My name is Ralph Pincus. I am chair of the West Mount Air.
Sir, could you spell your name, please?
I apologize.
R -A -L -P -H, Pincus, P -I -N -K -U -S.
Right.
Do you swear for him to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
I do, Mr. Chairman.
Are you from the RCO, sir?
Yes, sir.
I chair the Westmont Area Neighbor Zoning Committee.
Well, that's not the case we're on, right?
Ripley Street?
No, I'm sorry.
I was delayed in signing in, and I was calling that just to find out if the case on 532 West
Ellett Street has either been denied or dismissed or continued.
We have not had an RCO meeting with the applicant.
I apologize for coming in.
No, no, no.
Five, number five, I'm not to that yet, so you'll hear the results of that shortly.
That case is going to be withdrawn.
Oh, okay. Very good. Thank you.
All right. Go back to number one. Is Mr. Garcia in the audience?
No hands, Chair.
Okay. So MI 2022 -006 -978 -2334 Rippler Street. This is the third listing. I've moved to dismiss.
you broke up tom
thank you james snell i vote to dismiss
all right i have a few cases here for withdrawal number three
mi 2022 004 822 5304 north broad street this case has been withdrawn uh mr chair this is
hillary we were actually we don't have a letter for that one and we were told that someone
was going to appear to withdraw that case is there anyone here for 5304 north broad street
no hands okay so am i this is the third listing so mi 2022 004 822 5304 north broad street i voted
dismiss
james snell my vote is to dismiss
thank you
okay we we have the votes and then number five mi 2022 007
585 -532
West Elliott Street
this case has been withdrawn
and number nine
MI 2023
000732
416 -20
West Derrod Avenue
this case has been withdrawn
we're going to go to our first case
number number two
mi 2022
007 315
1601 cater street number b
sandy kakoro is the owner applicant
this is a pro se
they have been promoted to panelists
hi how are you this is
Hi, good morning. Could you state your name, please, and spell it for the court's sonography?
Yes, this is Cindy Cocoro, C -I -N -D -Y -C -A -C -C -U -R -O.
Okay, so this application is for the erection of a vertical addition with roof deck and roof access structure to an existing attached structure.
Size and location as shown on plans, existing single -family household living used to remain.
The proposed structure does not comply with the height limitation of the CMX2 commercial
The proposed structure does not comply with the height limitation of the CMX -2 commercial zoning area.
A maximum of 38 feet is allowed, whereas 54 feet is proposed.
Our vice chair has just a few questions for you, okay?
Good morning.
Counsel, do you agree to waive the reading of the refusal or stipulate to it with accuracy?
yes thank you please proceed and share your screen great um so should i just present now
yes okay so what we're looking to do is to um our existing home is uh the garage is on the
first floor so it gives us limited living space on our first floor and then we have our living
room and kitchen on our second floor and a very small bedroom on our third floor and a master
on our third floor. So right now it's me, my husband, and my four -year -old son who are living
in the house. My mother, who lives in South Philadelphia, is elderly, may have to come live
with us soon. So I wanted to create the downstairs space for a living space with her. And then we
have two older boys that are currently in college that we don't have any room for. So we're not
looking to do anything where we would increase any more cars on the street or anything like that.
We're just trying to create more living space for our family. We live on the premises, obviously.
And from a curb appeal aspect, it would actually make the curb appeal look nicer because we're the
second property from the corner and the corner property um did this same height um increase
uh so we would actually have our and our houses look like when you do this when you start showing
your documents okay um so i just got to figure a green button on the bottom says share docu share
screen. Okay. I just got to pull it up because I was having problems on my phone, on my computer,
so I had to do it from my phone, so let me just pull that up.
are you able to see my screen yeah we see you oh wait a minute something's we just switched over
to i see a phone symbol now are you doing this on your phone i am i couldn't my wasn't allowed
me to log in on my computer okay so do you have your documents on your phone yes i do
And I have it up on my phone. Let me just go back to where.
And do you have an iPhone, ma 'am? Yes, I do.
So, yeah, once you hit that share screen.
It should take you to like documents you want to share and then you will click on it.
ma 'am if you continue to have issues i believe your architect is also here
agada um she may be able to share her screen okay let's do that for you and then you can testify
okay that works would you like to do that yes please so what she'll do is she'll put the screen
there she'll put the documents up and then you'll testify okay wonderful great thank you why don't
why don't we let her in the architect and then we'll go from there if she has her hand raised
yes they've been promoted to panelists thank you hi so all we would need you to do is to share the
share the documents
Good morning
Board Agata Reister, Landmark Architectural
Design. Okay, just
share the documents for her and
she'll do the testimony. Sure, yes.
Okay, so
can you, Cindy, can you see
the documents? Yes, yes, I can.
So why don't you start going through them?
Right. So in the beginning, so should we just go right to the plans that show?
Just go through a couple of documents.
All right.
So these are just the.
Yeah, I see that. We'll go with that one.
OK. So this is just showing drawings. Yes.
So this.
So it's showing you what we're looking, what we're proposing to increase.
And as you can see that there's a currently there is a roof deck on our third on our fourth floor that we're looking to form into a family room slash bedroom.
um the existing structure in our front where there is kind of like a steeple and the
the front right hand side we're just going to keep the seam and then uh partially build out
on the back right half of the house um which is there yeah so on the photos you can see um
our house is the house on the left and the house that i was referring to earlier which had
did that expansion you can see that their left part of their house which is what we're looking
to do is to the left part of our house is uh four stories high and so we're looking to kind of match
that to kind of make the houses look similar and increase the height on that side of the house
so that's um i mean basically that's all we're we're looking to do we're not looking to
uh go into anything else as far as you know our um property line and taking any by any of our
outdoor space so why don't we do this could you show the letter from uh the rco yes
okay so you you everybody was in favor of this correct okay
All right. Questions from the board?
No, Chair.
No, Mr. Chairman.
Questions or comments from the virtual audience?
I see no hands.
Planning Commission.
Morning, this is Ron Bednar, City Planning.
While this property is currently...
Ron, let me swear you in. I don't think I swear you in the last time you're wrong.
Do you swear for him to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Proceed, sir.
While this property is currently indicated for commercial mixed use on our city plan, the applicant's hardship is not supported with evidence of physical circumstances or condition of the property that would prevent it from being used in conformance with the code.
Therefore, we recommend the request of parents not be granted.
Thank you.
MI 2022 -007 -315 -1601, Cater Street, number B, I vote yes.
Thomas Holloman, my vote is yes.
James Snell, my vote is yes.
My vote is yes.
Thank you. You have your votes.
Thank you so much, everyone.
Okay, thank you.
So, number eight, MI 2022, 007347, 224 -30 West Topahokin Street.
Michael Phillips and Steve Masters, are the attorneys involved in this?
Phillips has been promoted to panelists, and I'm sorry, Masters, can you raise your hand?
all right and you have been promoted to panelists as well okay good morning mr phillips let me go
with you first could you state your name please and spell for the court stenographer
michael phillips with claire harrison mary bransburg m -i -c -h -a -e -l -p -h -i -l -l -i -p -s
1835 tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth i do um mr masters please identify
yourself? Good morning, Mr. Chair, members of the board. Steve Masters, S -T -E -V -E, M -A -S -T -E -R -S,
from the law firm of JustLaws. I represent the objectors. Do you swear or firm to tell the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Mr. Reuter may join us later,
so let me go over real quick what we want to get done today. So we want to bring Mr. Horner back
for redirect and possible recross.
We'll have testimony of the four Protestants,
testimony of Richard Montanez,
and the Planning Commission is not going to give an opinion today.
They're going to wait until we get to the very end of the case.
Do we all agree where we are with this today?
Yes, we do.
Yes, we do.
All right.
So we're going to try to get through this in a timely fashion.
Mr. Masters, when the four Protestants come on, everybody will have their say, but we want to make sure we don't start repeating things, too.
So that's where we're going to be.
OK, so why don't we bring Mr. Horner on?
OK, just for one point of clarification, just did want to confirm that in terms of members of the public and anyone else who wants to speak on the case.
that would be at the the next hearing which i i would hope and as i believe we already have
we have a resumptive date for you for that okay thanks and this is this is hillary i just wanted
to to jump in um while we hope the next hearing would would be the last we recognize that um
the protestants experts will need to testify and that testimony could be lengthy and take
potentially take an entire hearing depending on how much time we have so there may be an additional
There may be two additional hearings.
So, Mr. David Horner.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Could you state your name, please, and spell for the court sonographer?
David Horner, H -O -R -N -E -R.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
Mr. Phillips, right?
I believe my examination of Mr. Horner had concluded in Mr. Masters was amidst cross, but you don't you you don't have any redirect.
Oh, we're on the redirect or we're in the middle of Steve's cross or one redirect.
OK. And then the possibility, Mr.
Mr. Masters will have recross.
Mr. Honor, I don't want to belabor the point too much because I do believe you testified very competently at the prior hearing.
But there was a testimony about some of the considerations that you had recommended be afforded for the parking at the rear.
Do you recall that?
I do. Yes.
Okay. And any of those additional considerations that you gave, and specifically we're talking about, there was the back -end only parking or consideration of West Pastore is becoming one way.
um would are any of those uh absent those considerations would you still um recommend
and believe that the parking uh along west pastoria is appropriate uh under the circumstances
Yes, I would.
And there's a distinction between something being acceptable and something being maybe a little better than acceptable, right?
That's correct.
And if something is not the absolute best, most ideal situation, that doesn't mean that it can't be a good situation, right?
uh that's correct and i think what mr masters was was trying to get out here
in his his cross -examination review was to say that you know since you had made some of these
recommendations that therefore you you felt uh that this was not an acceptable parking situation
but but that's not the case right that is not the case it is an acceptable situation as far
as my review goes, yes. And West Pastoreas can handle the additional traffic that would be
generated from locating the parking along Pastoreas? Yes, it can. And it was your testimony
that West Pastoreas was a better street for ingress and egress, actually, than Tulpahawken,
isn't that right? That's correct, yes. And you were familiar with the other
properties along
Pastoreas and that they have
ingress and e -degress, is that right?
That's correct, yes.
And you wouldn't,
I believe there was discussions of individuals
walking
in the middle of the street or
pedestrian foot traffic
along the street.
You would not recommend that individuals
walk in the middle of a street, would you?
it's not preferred in the middle of the street, no.
But there was adequate site, distance limitations, and all safety precautions that you would perceive to be necessary for this parking to be safe along West Pastelias?
along West Pastelias? If you could repeat that, I missed the beginning of that question,
If you could repeat that, I missed the beginning of that question.
so I want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly. Sure. You believe there are no
sight distance limitations that would affect the ability of cars to navigate, maneuver,
and recognize pedestrians? No, there are not. Okay. And the parking turning movements could
be you know physically accommodated here yes okay and what from a logistical standpoint from
a safety standpoint um the removal of the uh um the uh i believe it was the the pole uh the street
pole for lighting and straightening out of the uh driveway uh does that make uh the ingress and
degress, in your belief, safer or less safe? It makes it safer, yes.
Mr. Phillips? Oh, I said I have no further questions. You're breaking up a little bit,
TO IF YOU COULD STAY CLOSE TO THE COMPUTER I SAID I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS OKAY THANK YOU THANK YOU MR.
MASTERS DO YOU HAVE ANY RECROSS UM LET ME JUST LOOK I I FEEL LIKE MR. PHILLIPS BASICALLY GOT MR.
HORNER TO SAY THE SAME THINGS THAT HE SAID THE FIRST TIME AROUND AND DIDN'T REALLY DIDN'T REALLY
express anything new uh let me just review my notes
yeah i do have um a few questions for mr horner good morning mr horner good morning
um you were just asked by mr phillips if you um would recommend that individuals
walk in the middle of West Pastoria Street?
And I believe you said no, you would not recommend that.
I would not, and I wouldn't recommend that
with individuals walking in the middle of any street.
Do you recall that West Pastoria Street
does not have consistently wide sidewalks,
that it in fact has, in some parts, very narrow sidewalks
and in other parts, no sidewalks at all?
Yes, I do recall that. That's correct.
And would it surprise you to know that individuals walk in the street of West Pastorius all the time
because they have no sidewalks to walk on?
No, I am aware of that. I witnessed that.
And I believe most individuals walk on the edge of the street, not in the middle of the street,
which I would recommend if they have to walk in the street, that would be where they walk.
But you're conceding that pedestrians walk somewhere on the street of West Pastorea Street consistently.
They do, yes.
There really is no other way for them to walk through that area, right, if they're walking on Pastorea's.
I believe that that's true. In some cases, there is no sidewalk, yes.
And this is a two -way street where there are times where there are cars going in both directions.
That is correct, yes.
So how do you how would you describe the the level of safety for someone who was walking on Pastoria Street while two cars are also traveling in opposite directions at the same time?
Well, I think what you have here is you have very little traffic. You have no sight distance or sight line limitations. So you have the ability for the interaction of pedestrians and vehicles to be safe. Just because it's a cartway that allows two -way vehicles and pedestrians doesn't mean it's not safe.
When you have the ability to see and you have the ability that there's not much traffic or, quite frankly, not many pedestrians either, that interaction works and it's safe.
Right. But I gave you this scenario where when you're, let's say a pedestrian is walking on Pastoria Street, would you agree that they don't have a choice as to whether a vehicle or multiple vehicles come down that street while they chose to walk on it?
Would I agree they don't have a choice as to who's coming down the street while they're walking?
Yeah, they don't have any control over that, right?
That's correct. They do not.
Right. So in the situation, and there are times where two cars are traveling on Pastorius going in opposite directions.
That's correct also, right?
So let's say that a pedestrian is walking on Pastorius Street, and it happens that they picked a moment where there are cars going multiple directions on the street.
they picked a moment where there are cars going multiple directions on the street.
That can happen, right?
It can, yes.
And what's the safety issue there?
Well, the pedestrian would be able to identify that situation
and get off the road to allow the two cars to pass,
just like any situation where pedestrians and vehicles interact.
Have you noticed that the curbs are very high along Pastoria Street?
I wouldn't consider that as very high, but I have observed there are curves, yes.
Would it surprise you to know that some folks, especially people with, let's say, strollers or wheelchairs,
find it extremely difficult or even impossible to climb those curbs at the moment before a car is coming?
Well, if that's an issue, then I believe what would need to happen to address that issue is to address the ability for pedestrians to have a place that's not in the street to walk, whether that be additional sidewalks in front of properties along Pistorius.
when you have a roadway that's primary purpose is to provide access to properties for vehicles
and secondary purpose perhaps is to allow pedestrian flow. If there's a safety issue,
it would need to be addressed by providing the pedestrians a safe path to flow that's not in
the street. Does that recommendation appear in your report, Mr. Horner? No, because my report
was not to address pedestrian flow along other parts of Pistorius it was only to address whether
access could safely be provided for this property the subject property right and you also didn't
include any pedestrian counts in your traffic account that's correct too right that is correct
yes I have no further questions one thing and then you have one thing Mr. Phillips go ahead
Yeah. And if I could just share my screen briefly, I think this would orient.
Can you see my screen right now?
We should.
And it's fair to say this is West Pastoria Street facing, you know, going towards the property at 224.
That's correct, yes.
And you'll see there is sidewalk on the left side, correct?
Correct.
And now are you also aware as we continue to go down and there's still sidewalk on the left, then cutting over to the right, this is the subject property, correct?
Correct.
And this sidewalk that's along here, are you aware if that's a new sidewalk that was installed by the property owner?
I believe it is, yes.
So there is a sidewalk and a place for pedestrians to walk along this, along Pastorius, right?
That is correct, yes.
And consistent with your recommendation that any cars that would park here, if the variants were granted, back in,
then any individuals in their car would see directly in front of them any individuals who might be walking along the sidewalk.
Isn't that right?
That is correct.
Okay. And as you continue to go down past stories and you see these other entrances and for ingress and egress, there still continues to be a sidewalk until we get to about here, right?
That is correct. Yes.
Okay. But there are still other points of ingress and egress as we continue to go down past stories, correct?
For vehicles, you mean?
Yes. And you wouldn't recommend stopping all vehicular traffic on Pastorius, would you?
No, I don't recommend that.
And you don't think that adding, you know, an additional 15 cars a day to the 100 cars that travel approximately per your numbers would be a significant impact or burden on the street, would you?
no okay i don't have any further questions thank you mr masters you you're through
um just brief redirect a re re cross yes um uh mr horner you were looking at the sidewalks um
that are on mr bilby's um the edge of mr bilby's property right yes so if a pedestrian happened to
be in front of Mr. Bilby's property, those sidewalks would be where a pedestrian could
of mr billby's property those sidewalks would be where a pedestrian could move to
yes the cars that are coming in or out of mr billby's property
would you agree that they are traveling either up to green or down to wayne avenue
yes they don't just come out of his driveway and then go right back in his driveway they
go somewhere else usually, right? Yes. And that the sidewalks along the entire block of West
Pastoria Street there are not the same as the sidewalks that are at Mr. Villaby's property.
Do you agree with that also? That's correct. So what your testimony is, would be dependent on
where along that block a pedestrian happens to be when a car is coming towards them.
No, it's not. My testimony is that the interaction of cars and pedestrians along West Pastoria
Street, along its entire lane, is safe. And that's primarily because of two things. The low volume of
pedestrians and vehicles and the fact that it can safely be seen in terms of sight lines to allow
for those interactions to be, you know, for a pedestrian or a vehicle to react to what they
are seeing. So it's not dependent on the presence or not of sidewalks, although it is noted that
there are sidewalks in front of the subject site. So are you assuming, Mr. Horner, that
any driver along Pastoria Street would be driving in a safe and cautious manner at all times?
Well, when we analyze and design access driveways and make proclamations as to whether they are
safe or not. It presumes that there will be safe passage, or I guess I'll say rule following by
both pedestrians and vehicles. Again, if it is deemed that pedestrians don't have safe passage
along Pistorius, which would be, if that's the case, it would be the case under existing conditions,
then uh then that's when a pedestrian walkway would then have to be continued on through the
entire street or some other means of pedestrians to to traverse but uh i don't believe it's unsafe
i believe the level of interaction is safe uh so uh but you're but you said you're assuming
that the vehicles driving on pastoria street are obeying all traffic rules and are are are being
driven in a safe and cautious manner? That's correct, right? Yes. When we make a review and
a design of an access, that's what we have to presume. Yes. Okay. Is that your experience in
the real world that everyone who drives down streets is always operating in a safe and
cautious manner? No, of course it's not. However, you don't design. There's always a possibility of
a driver or a pedestrian or anybody, let's say they're impaired, for example. You don't design
an intersection based on the possibility that a driver or a pedestrian will be impaired.
If you did that, there would never be any interaction or conflict. There would be no
intersections because you'd have to presume that people will be running red lights, for example.
So that's not the presumption. The presumption is, yes, you design it appropriately so that
the rules can be followed and you expect that they will be. And if they don't, they are dealt
with at a later time in terms of enforcing rules or changing something so that situation doesn't
arise. Well, they may be dealt with at a later time, Mr. Horner, but at the moment that someone
is driving unsafely or not cautiously and there is a collision with a pedestrian, at that moment,
no one can deal with that except for the the except for the injury that that occurs right
yes but again you you you have to design what's appropriate you don't design for the possibility
that someone will break every rule that there can be i mean you can't there can be no roadway
design if you design for every vehicle going 100 miles an hour drunk i mean i i don't i don't
understand the uh well that's okay so is your testimony that you were that your report is
basically drawing drawing conclusions based on the ideal conditions of a design as opposed to what
is the the risk to pedestrians in the real world uh no it's not my report is based on the fact that
the volumes of pedestrians and the volumes of vehicles are such, and the design of the
of vehicles are such, and the design of the road, the width of the road, the sight distance of the
road, the width of the road.
road, they're all appropriate for me to recommend that the access as designed on this plan is
appropriate. That's what it's based on. You also testified, though, that you thought
that it was more appropriate to put traffic onto Pastorius than onto West Obahokan, right?
it that's correct yes so you were making some kind of a judgment and assessment that in your
view west pastorius was a safer road for traffic and pedestrians than west topohockin uh the access
to and from this site this property is safer coming out onto pastorius in and out than it
is on the Topohockin. And that's primarily because you have limitations of site distance
coming out on the Topohockin due to the on -street parking.
Right. It's the site distance from West Topohockin. And we already went through that in the cross
examination that that can be adjusted. That curb cut can be expanded. You had no basis to say that
it couldn't be in our in your in your past testimony yeah i didn't say it couldn't be
right so but you want you want this board to believe that well let me just ask the last
question how many cars did would it take to to um potentially injure a pedestrian assuming that
there's low relatively low traffic in pest on pastorius compared to west topahawken isn't it
true that only one car would be it would take only one car that was that was driving unsafely
to injure a pedestrian potentially? I'm not sure I understand the question.
You testified that part of the safety aspects that you view West Pistorius is that there's
just not a lot of traffic going up and down that street. Correct. Can't just one car going up and
down that street, injure a pedestrian? Of course it can.
Just like on any street. I have no further questions.
Mr. Masters, do you want to call your first witness?
Sure. I would
like to call Carla Willard. Are you okay, Mr.?
Yeah, I would just ask if Mr. Horner can be dismissed. Okay.
carla has been allowed to speak okay could you hi good morning could you state your name please
and spell for the court stenographer yes my name is carla willard uh c -a -r -l -a -w -i -l -l -a -r -d
right sorry all right do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing
but the truth i do mr masters proceed all right is it possible to um to elevate um professor willer
to um to panel so that the so that the board can see her the the four witnesses i have who are the
objectors i think it would be helpful to be able to see them when they're testifying that's that's
fine with me they have been promoted to panelists okay thank you there we go hi okay everyone
all right now I'm gonna try to um we just uh I understand you have some photos that you want to
refer to as part of your yes yes I do and and before I I speak about them um and I'm not going
to speak for more than you know eight to nine minutes i just want to say a couple of things
uh about the so -called sidewalk that mr uh that topahawken mansion has created in front of the
can we just um just pause for a second um can you first can you first tell the board where it is you
live how close it is to darren bilby's property and how close it is to the 15 parking spaces that
are uh proposed in this application so i live at the other end of pastorius toward uh wayne avenue
um i am over 300 feet uh from the subject property um my house is one and a half feet
from the curb the sidewalks are in good shape but there's nobody that can walk on them because
they're too narrow and i did if it's okay want to say something about the sidewalks in front of
Topohokin Mansion's subject property, they are what we call aprons, I believe.
They are slanted. They are not flat. And when it's icy, you can't walk on them.
They are not flat. And when it's icy, you can't walk on them. When it's rainy, you can't walk on
them. They lead up to curbs that, as you know, should not be there, but that are there. And so
they are not, I don't believe, sidewalks, although you're using the term sidewalk.
But if I can continue, I want to talk about residents that walk on Pastorius on a daily
basis. As you know, from the many letters that you received, there are seniors, school children
and families, bikers, and persons with reduced mobility that walk on the cartway because they
must. And the main point I'm going to make here is that this is a very different kind of street
because the public street of Pastorius is also a public sidewalk. Those neighbors with reduced
mobility. Several of them, many of them actually, live in the addresses adjacent to Pastorius on
Walnut Lane, but many of them seniors have their main pedestrian gate on Pastorius, and those
numbers are not captured by our traffic study. There are, on any given day, about 50 people
that walk on that block, and the ratio of cars to people is about two to one.
um i want to show you a map here um because i want to talk actually instead of talking about
our immediate uh close neighbors i want to talk about the uh the larger community we have two
schools one here uh and i'm circling here and a lingawack elementary the other it's about two
blocks away we have a waldorf school here around the corner here's the pastoreas cartway
and we all have four freedoms and i will talk about that in a minute um you have in your binder
in our binder that was submitted to you a letter from lingobock principal lisa waddell
who was very concerned about her kids and her and her families who walk on the block
if we could go to picture number two i believe um here we have well that's not it maybe i should
share my screen. Can I share my screen? Is that possible? Can we arrange that?
Is it possible for me to share my screen? I'm asking the question now. Can we arrange her to
share her screen? Yeah, she would just need to hit that green share screen button at the bottom.
At the bottom. Okay, thank you. Here we go. Okay. So here's the map.
um it's you're you're not up yet it's coming now we're fine okay yeah so here's the map and it's
a little bit better i think lingelbach is here two blocks away waldorf is around the corner and
four freedoms house is down the street and in back of the train station right here and i'll talk
about four freedoms in just a minute um the uh letter you have from uh principal lisa waddell
from lingelbach elementary um is uh very specific about you know her her walks on uh pastoria street
um there is there are approximately 350 children who attend 330 to 350 that attend uh lingelbach
elementary and the kids that you see here are part of the after school program um i took this picture
because something remarkable happened just before i took it i was putting out recycling last may
around 5 p .m and a car was coming slowly from green street towards these kids and the kid that
you see here was joking with his friends and he jumped out in the middle of the cartway just
before that car basically hit him luckily the driver was being attentive there was no driver
There was no driver problem. But but but, you know, the point I'm trying to make here is that the actions of children, a lot of them walking on the street, you know, are unpredictable and erratic as a lot of children are.
The actions of a lot of children are. I also want to talk about, let's see here, the letter from manager of operations, Betsy Sweeney.
Objection. Continued objection to testimony regarding other people's letters as hearsay.
Well, let me just, these are part of, these are exhibits that are in our, in our folder and, and Professor Willard has had conversations with, with these folks and she actually solicited those letters that were submitted to the board.
So we're going to let her continue, let her continue, please.
Go proceed.
Oh, she's, she's been muted though. You need to unmute.
Okay. I just want to reference the letters that you've already read.
um i'm asking the board to please consider what it's like for us who live on the block and who use
I'm asking the board to please consider what it's like for us who live on the block and who use this block from the larger neighborhood who walk on the on a sidewalk that is also a street.
I walked last April at the end of April with a father and child down towards Wayne, which is the direction that these people are going.
This is a Lingleback. I'm sorry. This is a Waldorf family, by the way, the child on the bike and the mom.
but I walked with a father and two children and without knowing it a Prius was coming up behind
us we didn't hear anything until the car was about a few feet away and it blew its horn and the kid
the son who's about eight years old and was a little farther down from this child on the bike
tried to hop up on the curb and fell against a stone wall again about a foot and a half from
the cartway um and the the father who had the other child on his chest sat on the curb to check
out his son the son was unhurt and the Prius passed us by about two feet uh from where I was
standing um but but you know the the point being here that you know cars have to be driving safely
and they don't always do that uh around the same time a little bit later towards the beginning of
May. I was walking early evening with my dog in the other direction, and a car swerved into my
pathway. I jumped up on the curb and fell against the sycamore that you just saw in Mr. Phillips's
presentation. You know, I don't know why that car swerved into my pathway, but it did.
Cars do. People text in cars and so forth. But anyway, Miss Sweeney, and I would refer to her letter again, you know, her letter is in the binder, is concerned about so many cars being parked on Pastorius when there is, you know, there is a lot of room within the property to park more safely and even more conveniently for the handicapped tenants.
um the other side of the street which mr corner thinks is less safe because of the exit
is 45 feet wide and on each side of topahawken there are sidewalks contiguously down the street
most of them are five feet wide okay so there's plenty of safe space for pedestrians to walk
um lastly i want to talk here is a again uh what you have to do with a carriage you know most
carriages cannot hop that curve. I want to talk about a few of our residents with reduced mobility.
Again, Mr. Jones has written to you a letter. He is from the Four Freedoms House. Four Freedoms is
an apartment complex with 287 units for seniors over 62 who have what they call restricted income.
uh mr jones walks on the street as he's written in his letter because he needs a smooth surface
to walk on he is on oxygen and several of those neighbors at four freedoms walk on the street
one of them a dog walker who told me that they don't have a lot of family to pick them up
and they use the neighborhood to you know to get out and to walk around
so to sum up um i want to just say that our shared street works uh it works well
when it's shared respectfully, when parked cars have at least several feet before they reach the
apron and when they can turn around within the property, you know, when they don't have to back
up or pull out onto sidewalks without, you know, a good amount of space before they do.
Tobahoggan Mansion has created parking spaces that are very shallow or short. They line up
against a slanted apron where there is no sidewalk in my opinion before the cartway they
comprise a linear style parking lot that is more than a half a football field long and and they
are asking you to approve 15 more spaces along that lot together with 22 that they already have
within this very very large property uh and as you know topahawken mansion wants to block the
internal drive and force 37 tenant cars out on Pastorius alone. So I've heard people call this
case annoying, but I don't know any neighbor living in any residential neighborhood that
would not be annoyed by the prospect of a parking lot lining up over 150 feet right off the sidewalk
of one block, a block where people walk in the cartway. We hope the board considers the safety
of the people of the block as well as in the larger germantown neighborhood and we entreat
you to encourage this owner to create alternative safer parking within his large property thank you
Thank you for the opportunity to testify.
for the opportunity to testify mr masters are you
Mr. Masters, are you through?
Yes, that is Professor Willard's testimony.
Hi, Mr. Phillips.
Professor Willard, can you just, I don't believe we got it, but can you just state what your address is for the board?
265 West.
Pastores.
is okay and i'm just going to uh can i ask you just to stop your uh screen share so i can sure
i'm sorry absolutely
that's my car so this is this is
your uh mr phillips you're breaking up a lot could you try to get closer to the
computer we have a hard time hearing you i'm gonna try to reconnect right now that's better that's
better i apologize my internet for some reason keeps going in and out this morning is this
better yes it's fine yep okay um all right and don't mind let me just
all right so this is your that's my car
and this is your entrance facing pastorius right that is correct okay and uh is it true
let me zoom here so looking at the top of my screen um we have topahokan walnut lane green
street and wayne ave and then this is pastoria's that that runs through here and is it fair this
this what's highlighted in blue here is your parcel uh yes two parking spaces with an easement
on two as well okay and and this property right here is is uh mr ramos's michael ramos that is
correct yes okay and did you used to own um the entire property and then subjection this has
nothing to do with cross -examination i didn't her direct examination does not i i think i
mr masters i think she already answered that she did okay no the answer is no but you have parking
spaces here that uh enter an exit onto pastorius correct correct okay and if as i'm traveling up
pastorius um are these the the same parking spaces correct so i'm parked in the easement
right there there are two parking spaces the first ones that i own that were created in the
1980s and then the last one over there is an easement and i was parking there for i think
there was a delivery or something like that so there are eight parking spots here there are
seven i believe there there are three maybe four on that side they're basically three on that side
two on the other side and then there's two easement parking spaces i'm going to continue
my objection mr chair this has nothing to do with the direct examination so i don't know how this
can be um this can be approved on the cross so so i i think i'm going to let that continue and
you know mr phillips try to get to your point with this well basically mr phillips each of these uh
large uh well i have a very small place but uh mike ramus has a very large place and each of us
has he has about three parking spaces i have two
so when i see here this is a subdivision plan for both 266 west top of hawking mr where mr
ramos's house and then this right here uh past 265 west pastores and then you see four parking
spaces here four there and those spaces are used by you said you and whom else who else uses those
And Mr. Ramos and his family and also deliveries. We had used to have oil so that the two easement spaces were used by oil trucks. And I really don't know what I'm looking at here, whether or not this was the new survey that was done before I bought the place in 2015 or 2014.
uh there was an an error in the deed and uh i know that i i remember mr bilby mentioning
that i had applied for parking spaces that is not the case i never applied for any parking space the
survey forced the reapplication of the parking spaces for the city in 2015 i believe or maybe
it was 2014 i'm not clear on the date but these parking spaces were created in the 1980s
clear on the date but these parking spaces were created in the 1980s and as you see if you could
move further down uh mr phillips on your picture um i park about 20 feet from the curb mr ramos
and his family park at least 10 feet from the curb compare that to slanted aprons that are
right off the parking spaces where people either back up or pull out into a sidewalk cartway
um does anyone your home uh is it a single family house it is okay and you're in well no actually no
i'm sorry it's a twin so my house is connected to the other carriage house on the other side i have
about a third of the long building and my neighbors have about two thirds and their parking is on the
right side there yes so these would be your neighbors in their parking right correct so
they have two cars and two spaces and they also park far away from the curb um they can turn
around in their property as we can turn around on our property all of the older parking spaces
were uh you know uh careful to make sure that we were a good distance from the cartway because it
is a sidewalk this public street is a public sidewalk so there are these parking spaces here
are solely for your use and Mr. Ramos's use right that is correct okay so I'm gonna I'm gonna ask
for an offer of proof here I just don't understand the relevance to how does this relate to his
application for 15 parking spaces spaces for two single families but Mr. Phillips why don't I mean
i think we went over this really well why do you get to the point so you're not miss willard you're
not suggesting that uh the eight parking spaces you have uh between yourself and mr ramos uh
should be eliminated right i'm not suggesting they be eliminated because they are appropriately
placed long from far away from the curve where we have plenty of space to turn around within
the property and we're not backing up into people we're pulling out into people without giving
pause you know we we can we can take our time right we're not right off of an apron we're not
you know uh we're not a 10 feet we're not our parking spaces are not 10 feet long
right off of an apron and that is what mr bilby has
i'm sorry i can't hear you mr you're breaking up again mike
i have two parking spaces i own two parking spaces most people on the block own two parking
spaces mr bilby has 36 15 on a proposal here 22 within his property and he has way more space
within his property to create better and more appropriate parking especially for his handicapped
tenants. Use your parking. Do you either take a right and go out to Walnut or a right and head out
to Wayne Abbey, take a left and head to Green? Well, I'm glad you asked that question because
often one side of the street is blocked. For example, this past weekend, we had cars parked
and flashing on the green street side and so i used the wayne street side often on the wayne
street side like last this past weekend we had the gas company there um there's also comcast
there are delivery trucks there are uh you know uh there are all kinds of cars cars that park with
flashing and that block one side of the street and that's the problem for us right with a one -way
Street. We have to be able to get out. The cars on Green Street were parked there for three hours
this past Saturday. So we couldn't use Green Street.
Mr. Phillips? Yes, sorry.
my cut out again um can you hear me we hear you now we hear you yeah yeah apologies for the uh
technical difficulties uh there are other other than yourself other uh uh properties along
pastoria's have ingress and egress to pastoria's correct correct within about i'd say the closest
One, without thinking about the garage on the corner, the closest one is my next door neighbors.
And again, you see they have about 15 feet in a drive into their property, two parking spaces, and they can turn around.
uh in in a drive into their property to parking spaces and they can turn around within their
property there's nothing preventing uh pedestrians from walking along wayne ave tolpa ho park in or
west walnut to use uh those as streets to travel east west is there yes there is i mean you know
the the myself my neighbors um uh you know the the uh the the couple that bought the 241 west
Pastorius from from Tobahock and Mansion. The people across the older couple that's been on
the block for 30 years, Susan Wright, none of us have access to the other blocks. But I think what
you're referring to is the larger community. And unless you want to stop pedestrians, you know,
with a stop, no pedestrian sign, people are going to walk on Pastorius for a number of reasons. One,
it's a smooth surface uh there aren't the broken fragmented sidewalks that there are in the
surrounding area uh two it's an architectural gem you know it's a it's a late 1860 1870 uh
architectural footprint from from the late victorian age and a lot of people like walking
down the street there you know it's a nice walk um but it is uh you know we are jeopardized by
cars even when they go slowly they're not always predictable and certainly school kids and children
we need to protect um and are you aware of uh how many automobile accidents have been
on west pastoria street since 2010 uh i am not aware of how many there have been i would assume
assume very little very few um there have not been there are only about 100 cars a day there
even with mr bilby's 22 within his property and i know that at least i'm told that they cannot use
his front gate he has a design plan on atlas that shows a landscape buffer blocking the front gate
so i guess that they all use uh pastorius but maybe they go out on green i don't know
um the wallingford apartment has 18 cars but they use one curb cut that's 14 feet wide
as opposed to 150 plus feet of curb cut it's excessive you know it's excessive and as you
remember mr phillips we tried to speak with mr bilby in 2019 about opening up his front gate
and taking some of the traffic on topahaken and he refused um and it would be your preference
that all traffic be directed towards Topohockin and that the property at 224 West Topohockin
and the 36 residents solely use Topohockin for ingress and egress.
Is that correct?
That wasn't me.
That was the zoning board in 2017.
I'm asking about you.
I agree with the zoning board in 2017.
The zoning board gave Mr. Bilby all he wanted, 20 high -end rental units on the condition
that he not use Pastorius, use the Tolpahawken curb as it's written in that vaguely worded
proviso for his tenant traffic. And we would like that this zoning board to please
honor that proviso. Nothing, no conditions have changed in our neighborhood.
Without getting into the past and the interpretation of the proviso, again, I'm asking
that it is your preference as you sit here today uh the owner occupant of uh
251 or 265 west pastoral street yeah that that uh all of mr uh bob's tenants and all of the
residents and occupants uh at 224 uh be prohibited from using pastorious and be limited to only
using Topo Harkin for ingress and egress is that correct? Well I mean it's not totally correct
because Mr. Bilby also has Green Street I mean he has a huge property right so he could also use
the Green Street curb there's a curb cut on Green Street that he owns you know there his Topo Harkin
frontage is really wide he could create a if he didn't want people to use his front gate which is
what he continues to say he could create I guess he'd have to get approval another curb cut on the
other side of Topohokan, near the corner property, for his tenant traffic. He has a lot of options,
right? I'm not saying that he has to use Topohokan. I'm just saying that we need to be
really careful about allowing 36 cars to only use Pastoria Street. It's excessive.
But it's not excessive for your eight cars for the two single family uses?
I don't have eight cars. I have two spots and I have one car. I have people visit me. I have
family to come and visit. I have deliveries, but I have two cars, you know, and so does my neighbor,
But I have two cars, you know, and so does my neighbor.
My grandma's have two cars.
my grandma.
Most of the people who are couples on the street have one or two cars.
We don't have 36.
So then all those cars could use Topohokin, not Pastorius.
That's your point.
I'm not saying they have to use Topohokin.
Mr. Phillips, please let me be clear.
He has many options for egress.
I don't think Pastoria should be an option, certainly not if he's closing off Topahokin Street, which you yourself told me in 2019 that he refused to negotiate on.
And he's told the president of our neighborhood association very recently that he's not negotiating on his front gate because, as he said on the meeting on March 15th, this is my home.
but we also have homes you know um and and so we're just we're we've we've wanted to talk with
mr bilby we've tried several times we tried in the fall of 2017 as well um but we don't seem to
be able to get past the the block uh on the topahawken curve for him which is really where
the zoning board said he should have his tenant traffic right well again that's 2017 we're here
today speaking that's right we are after a commonwealth court ruling that said he should
not have any of those new curb cuts right that's your again i don't believe that's what the
commonwealth court said but we're not here to debate that i just wanted to know the facts of
who parks along pastoria's and who should be and shouldn't be allowed okay so okay to sum up for
the zoning board the people on pastoria's beyond topahawken mansion uh couples and singles uh
have one or two cars each. We have two, sometimes three and a half, I guess, parking spaces each.
Each one of those parking spaces is way far away from the curb with ample room within the property
to turn around. So that's a summary. And what about the Wallingford apartments? You did mention
that, right? Yep. They are, they have a gate or rather a door, right? So that they open up their
door. There's one curb cut. There are 18 cars inside a property, inside a garage where they
can turn around and they can come out face first on one curb cut. Again, I think there's something
like 170 feet of curb cut that that the topo hawkin mansion has created or 160 it's more than
a half of a football field and i don't know really anybody that wouldn't be upset about that i'm
sorry if you live on the block i'm repeating myself now so maybe we're trying to repeat ourselves
yeah there there is no 170 foot curb cut i will stipulate you know there was at one point that
was proposed, there is additional landscape buffers. So there are these separate curve
cuts that I'm dragging my cursor over here. But I do want to, you just raised an important point.
Well, I do want to say, Mr. Phillips, I welcome you talking to me about stipulations, but we
haven't been able to have any conversations about stipulations. So this is the first time I'm hearing
that you want to stipulate to something and let's talk about it and let's get the board some
stipulations that we can agree to certainly um but for for right now i want to talk about miss
you mentioned the importance of uh coming out uh front for uh uh front first right onto the street
not backing out and you have to back in yeah yeah so um and would you agree that you know given your
you know if you had the choice of whether cars had to back in uh or whether they could um you
know pull in front first and back out onto pastories it would be your preference that all
cars back into the spots and drive front first into pastories right it would be my preference
that they park inside the property that new alternative and safer parking be created what
you have here mr phillips if you look i mean i guess you can see the raised curb where there
is landscape buffers you have you know up and down up and down up and down on this so -called
sidewalk the whole stretch now i don't know maybe it's not 160 feet maybe it's 145 um you know but
it is almost a half a football field long if not more it's a long it's a long excessive stretch
you're asking my opinion absolutely and if cars backed in to the spot and are uh facing pastoria
street can you tell me what the difference is between that and a car that is stopped at the
wallingford looking both ways before turning on to pastoria yes i will tell you the difference
the difference is that wallingford has one curb cut it's a huge difference you don't have 15 cars
You don't have 15 cars backing in and pulling out from a linear parking lot.
backing in and pulling
This is a parking lot.
This is not a garage.
There's a huge difference.
You have one car.
How about if people leave for work at the same time?
How about if people come home from work around the same time?
You know, I mean, Wallingford has one curb cut that allows one car to pass, right?
Are you in agreement with that, Mr. Phillips?
and these would be one car all facing pastoria street yeah but they're they're lined up as 15
it's a big difference um all right i uh i don't believe i have any further questions for miss
willard and i know that there are other i appreciate i appreciate you and there are
other people i just want to say something that you know i'm going to finish i don't i don't
Hold on one minute. Hold on one minute. Now, now, now, now. If your attorney wants to talk to you.
Okay, I'm sorry.
Do you have anything else, Steve?
I don't. Well, the only thing I have on redirect is, Carla, is there anything else that you wanted to add to the board at this time?
Yeah, thank you. I just want to say that these parking spaces were finished after Commonwealth said that they could not be built.
So here you have a developer building something and asking for approval later.
uh it it's it's just really problematic that's all i want to say thank you um steve are you done
uh with with um professor worldard yes yes and mr phillips you have nothing nothing further right
okay please call your next witness all right mike we're still having trouble
all right uh next witness is going to be mike uh ramos okay
they have been promoted to panelists hi good morning mr ramos could you state your name
please and spell for the court stenographer
i don't see him
there he is hi mr ramos state your name please and spell for the court stenographer
can you hear me yes yeah i can hear you all right uh my name is michael ramos
m -i -c -h -a -e -l -r -a -m -o -s right do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and
nothing but the truth i do okay um mr masters it's your witness yeah if we can let's try to
avoid anything that's been brought up by the prior person and see what new we can get out
we've we've prepared all of our witnesses to have unique okay that's great thank you so much thank
You're welcome. We're trying to help out. Mr. Ramos, can you describe where you live in proximity to Mr. Bilby's property and the location of the proposed 15 new parking spaces?
Sure. I live on, well, my address is 266 West Tupperhawken Street. That is on the same block as the subject property down closer to Wayne Avenue. I'm not sure exactly how many feet it is, but I'm essentially down the street.
And your address is on Tupperhawken, but do you have vehicle driveway access onto Tupperhawken or do you have it only on Pastorius?
I do have vehicular access solely on Pastorius. The property does front on Topohockin, but my access from a vehicular standpoint, yes, is on Pastorius Street.
Okay. Can you describe your experiences walking along Pastorius Street with your wife and baby?
Sure. So, you know, my wife and I do use Pastoria Street to walk. The front of our house is very steep, as are many of the Victorian houses. You know, there's high retaining walls, terraced gardens and such. So it's easier to go through Pastoria Street.
Uh, my, my side of the street is a little, it has a, you know, a higher elevation, uh, uh, from, from the, from the house to the, to Tobelhockin, uh, than it does on the other end of the block where the subject property is.
Um, so, so yeah, we do walk down Pestoria street every day, uh, multiple times a day.
Um, you know, uh, we have had vehicles, um, you know, and I think the nature of the street has already been described.
um you know uh it's it's a very narrow two -way street uh my wife and i do uh walk uh with our
son there uh pushing the carriage and um yeah so the um it's very difficult to actually it's
virtually impossible to stay on the sidewalk the sidewalks are basically unusable uh you know as
You know, as you saw in the end, you know, when Mr. Phillips has, you know, he showed some views of Pastoria Street, you could see that, you know, the sidewalks are not continuous.
you saw in the, and, you know, when Mr. Phillips has
And they're also there are telephone poles actually in the sidewalk.
Basically, most of the Tulpahak and one lane properties actually get their electrical service from from Pastoria Street.
So all the telephone poles are back there and not not along Pastoria Street.
You'll notice on our side, there's maybe one telephone pole on Topohocken.
So the sidewalks are very narrow.
You have to walk in the street.
I think it's only maybe 30 inches, some of these sidewalks where you can get up on them.
And there's been instances where, you know, my wife and I had to pull the carriage out of the street because a vehicle refused to yield.
You know, sometimes even when they drive slow, they refuse to yield.
And cars don't even yield to each other, actually, when they are going trying to pass by. They, you know, will force another to drive up onto the curb or something. I mean, these are conditions that we don't necessarily need to exacerbate, you know, especially when there are other options.
so how often would you say that you've encountered vehicles like that where where you haven't you
you um you had a vehicle where you had to move the carriage out of the way
um i mean in the past year probably eight or nine times uh most recently i think was uh in june
uh when a uh when we were down close to wayne avenue a car came up to uh off of wayne up
pastoria street uh and you know the carriage was sticking out uh so we pull had to pull them up
uh onto the curb which is at that point down there maybe like 18 inches had to pull them up
uh just to get out of the get out of the way um so yes i mean cars sometimes drive fast there but
even when they're slow uh they don't uh uh behave so to speak have you recently heard cars driving
very quickly down pastorios i have you can hear them at night time um uh and during the day uh
some of the trash trucks do go go go pretty quick uh you can hear them rumble by um and uh so so yes
um the uh you can hear the traffic you know in an old house my windows leak pretty bad so i can hear
what's going on back there and and you can hear the vehicles yes um have you ever seen disabled
or mobility impaired people using pastoria street uh yes um i've seen uh you know persons in
wheelchairs i'll walk down pastoria uh and i think it was this past weekend i did see somebody
hearing impaired, or not hearing, who appeared to be visually impaired, but somebody leading
them around on Pastoria Street, pointing things out and such.
All right.
Mr. Ramos, are you also a leader of the local RCO?
I am a vice president of West Central Germantown Neighbors.
And are you on the zoning committee as well?
can you share the comments that you made at the RCO meeting for this application and and the
concerns you had about some of the issues dealing with the definition of near neighbors and some of
the other concerns you had sure so yeah I mean there were some questions about the history you
You know, there's been, you know, this this issue has been painted as, you know, the for, you know, as as an opposition to parking, to the creation of parking.
And that's not true at all. You know, we don't want anybody to lose their parking.
It's just this is about where the parking is. You know, there's, you know, with two point two acres the applicant has, you could pretty much fit fit every vehicle on the block.
You can create you can create quite a bit of parking without without these variances.
Um, the, uh, you know, somebody made a question, somebody questioned, uh, I think about, you know, uh, why the spots were there and unusable and, and I think some, I think I might've gave some history, uh, there, um, because some people might've been new to the neighborhood and didn't, didn't know what was going on.
um yes and the concerns um were also in the definition of near neighbors uh there are sick
there were 16 16 uh residents of pastoria street who should have been by the normal city convention
uh who should have been considered near neighbors uh but they they live on they live on uh pastoria
street even though their addresses say tolpahokan or walnut lane um so uh yeah they should have
Yeah, they should have been considered near neighbors. And also the other issue was, you know, the RCO and all of these things were or have been sent and many of the neighbors have sent letters to this effect.
been considered near neighbors um and also the other issue
So I'm not saying, you know, anything really new here, but the neighbors said that the residents of the property as residents of, you know, as residents of subject property were allowed to vote.
And normally that's not necessarily the case.
You know, if you have a conflict of interest, you don't you're normally not allowed to vote.
this is a somewhat interesting scenario where the subject property is inhabited. And I imagine a lot
of the cases that come between, you know, like this come before the zoning board is before
construction began, begins. So, you know, we thought it necessary, you know, and a lot of us
wrote letters to that effect that, you know, pointing out that a lot of the support that was
described uh in the neighborhood association's letter uh a lot the about half of the applicant
support came from his own tenants um so the so taking so the actual neighbor the neighbors
opposed it much much uh uh more strongly than than those numbers suggest um
Um, would you, um, uh, are there times that you're not even able to access your driveway
on Pastorius because the, um, Pastorius street is being blocked?
Yes, that happens, uh, quite frequently.
Um, there's, uh, um, a few houses on the street that are still served by oil.
So at certain times of the year, they get their oil deliveries.
Um, the, uh, you know, the mail trucks, uh, stop deliveries. Um, also, uh, you know, uh, I think residents of, of, uh, the Apkins property do park, uh, like halfway onto, you know, since, since there's barriers blocking the, um, uh, blocking the, uh, parking spaces.
um uh you know there are um like these little white blocks there uh so cars are actually
parking halfway onto onto the street uh like they're doing here like these like yeah like
you're doing here they do it on both sides of the street even where there's no aprons too sometimes
and yes there's work going on um and uh yeah you could see here in this photo um you know this is
what it looks like when you have vehicles that are you know oncoming uh vehicle and you could
see vehicles can fit but you know side by side but they got to be small not not uh you know not
trucks and such yep yep there's a little truck have you noticed um have you noticed any impact
from uh the the new tenants and in mr bilby's properties in terms of blocking the the street
i have um there's proper there's uh moving trucks have blocked the um uh the street uh they park
right up uh they back up right against the building um and uh uh block the street uh
block block pastoria street so yeah i mean that's really unfortunate and you know shouldn't be
necessary um along with the of course the other deliveries and trash and such but the you know
the moving trucks blocking in that way especially egregious especially when it's you know some are
proposing that it be a one -way uh that would be impossible um do you also have any concerns about
the parking spaces themselves whether they're large enough to accommodate the um the tenant
vehicles so there are i do have concerns about that you could actually see in our in our chp
plannings uh study uh the the google i think it's google you know the street view they used showed
a vehicle park in the spot with the back part of it into you know over the over the uh over the
sidewalk or it's not real sidewalk it's an apron um you know so uh these spots uh there's not a
whole lot of uh margin for for error there and and uh i imagine no one's going to pull right up
to the building because you want to walk in front of the car along the building all right i'm not
able to pull up that photo but we will we will show the the board that in the future um all right
thank you do you have anything else that you wanted to share with the board at this time
uh yes uh one thing that has gone on mentioned is the you know uh the property damage that gets
caused uh by by the traffic um you know it's been you know we've heard testimony saying the street
can handle additional traffic and such and and you know i think um
And, you know, I think, you know, since there are other options, since this property has frontage on two other streets, you know, I think it's a very, you know, very easy to not create the kind of issues that we're discussing.
One thing is the property damage.
You know, I think you can walk up and down Pistoria Street, and I don't know if you ever see it in any of the photos, but there's a lot of damage.
A lot of the curbs are damaged from vehicles driving up on them.
um there are um uh the sidewalks are all broken all from and actually in that picture in one of
the pictures you just showed the you know people were parking uh outside the wallingford's um
outside the wallingford's uh um garage uh they put those parking um bollards there because people
were parking up there that curb is broken uh because people are parking along uh there uh
And here you could see that, yeah, you could see on that, all the, you know, on this picture, you could see the bricks with, you know, there's a telephone pole block and you're, you know, blocking your walking and a fire hydrant on the other side.
um but um and you could see um you can't see very well here but a lot from from the parking
uh the curbs the curds the sidewalks are damaged because when cars drive up on them they you know
the weight of the wheels pushes down the sidewalk and a lot of these brick walks are very um you
know sunken um and uneven uh and my own sidewalk is uh cracked because a vehicle drive up on it
And I have a cast iron fence that's 140 years old that somebody hits, and I haven't fixed it yet. And my neighbor has actually a stone wall that somebody drove up over the curb into the stone wall, and they had to get that section of the stone wall rebuilt, all this on Pastoria Street.
So, you know, I know there's an assumption of good behavior when, you know, you make policy decisions, but you have to think about, you know, when they're not.
I mean, that's why we have traffic lights and such.
All right. Thank you, Mr. Ramos. I think we're ready for cross.
Mr. Phillips?
Mr. Ramos.
all right i can see your screen yep and so uh what i have highlighted that's your property
is that correct it is all right and you know with the frontage on both uh topo hawking and on
pastorius uh -huh and in the bottom this is uh the uh the parking uh the eight spaces that uh
you know i believe you have four and miss uh professor uh willard has as far as well is that
correct correct okay and again you use pastorius for um all of your ingress and vehicular ingress
and egress right yes and uh pedestrian often and pedestrian often but you know you could also use
top of hawkins street for pedestrian as well right um not if i have a carriage or any type
a wheeled vehicle um because the the uh there's it's terraced you can't see from here but there's
uh you know a lot of these houses have on tulpak and on my end of the block have retaining walls
so if you have anything wheeled uh you really can't go out the tulpak and uh without driving
it down steps you often you said you you often use pastorius uh to walk a stroller and to to walk
your child
with your wife? Correct.
Okay. So you must
at least feel somewhat safe that
you'll walk your
child along Pastorius?
Right. And
some of us,
it's also
a lack of option.
A lot of these properties
are landlocked along Pastorius.
We've also
walked uh uh our child uh to the doctor's office um or to the dentist office which is right around
the corner um you know doesn't uh make sense to drive um and you're not the only one who has a
curb cut you and miss willard are the only ones with curb cuts on on pastorius right other neighbors
have that too correct okay including the walling for departments way down you know um down here
where my cursor is correct um there's you know i believe a new curb cut here directly across from
the property so there's other curb cuts um and other you know cars that use pastorius right
there are okay um and and how many can you just clarify do you have two parking spaces or four
uh it is it is uh i think it's four okay and and you
It is. It is. I think it's four.
OK. And you is your home. Is it a single family use or do you have also an apartment there, other tenants or is it just you and your family?
No, it's me and my family. The parking spots were created actually in 1973 when it was a group child home.
So so they put that in. I can get the calendar number when it was created.
So, yes, that's been there for a while. My property and Carla's property were one property, and it became a child group home.
When you have guests, they can use your parking spaces to visit you, right?
uh yes but i generally um uh yeah if it's one um one or if it's two cars uh yes uh otherwise uh
they just go and park in front of my house on topohocken
one of your house in topohocken
yeah um and and you're a member of of as you said uh west germantown uh neighbors it's no
you know it's no uh secret that parking is in in uh high demand in germantown is that correct
fair to say uh yes um and one way to alleviate uh the uh the the lack of on uh on -street parking is
for properties to provide off -street parking isn't that right yes yep and and like i said i
don't oppose the creation of any off -street parking it's just it can be done you know
without variances you know on the interior of the property um uh i don't object to the creation of
more parking spots don't want anybody to lose it but lose parking spots either but um do you
nobody can say with a straight face that that this parking could be made on the interior of the
property you see you know this existing interior parking and then these these spaces are are the
ones that are at issue right now um and the ones that you're objecting to right correct
Right. And also the one, there's one sole one, there's a caretaker cottage there. There's one there too that we're objecting to.
You're objecting to the sole, the single one here as well. So you're objecting to any parking along Pastorius and any use of Pastorius for the parking of vehicles accessory to the multifamily use, right?
Yes, I'm objecting to
Pastorius, but not to
Topohokin or Green Street usage
Across the street
I believe there's
Parking that was just created for Ms. Wright
And her son, you didn't object to that
Did you?
I'm pretty sure
I'm not aware
What was created for Ms. Wright
Built by Ms. Wright
and it will have this parking that comes right here you object to that or were you fine with
that um no i don't um object to that it's it's not uh a motel style parking arrangement as uh
your client's proposing uh it's one car one car that's out of the way um and not not a whole line
of them you know in direct view of like directly in front of the building there's no contention
that the parking the the dimensions and the size of the the parking spaces themselves
fail to meet the the standard set out by the the zoning code is there
i'm objecting if it calls for like a legal conclusion that's not that's not something
that that he's testified about well he did testify that they were he believed that the
spaces were small so i'm just trying to clarify if he believes that they're undersized for the
code no question can be answered um i'm not contending that i'm not saying that they're
too small per regulations i am saying that cars will hang over the street as you as we
will shown in in our planning in our planners reports um you know uh what works on paper and
what works in reality are two
different things.
The low volume
street for traffic.
street for traffic uh you broke up a little bit say again would you classify uh west pastoria
You broke up
a little bit. Say again.
street as a low traffic street um no i wouldn't because i don't know what the
traffic patterns on all the streets are i mean compared to you know walnut lane i would say so
um but i don't know like if it would be comparable to mccallum street or whatever i i don't know and
I don't know what the standards are, you know, as far as what's considered high and low volume, especially in this neighborhood, which is a lower density neighborhood.
I wasn't referencing like the city's definitions of what's a high traffic or low traffic.
I was asking whether, in your opinion, it's a it's a it's a heavily trafficked street.
uh i would say it is okay you said it's heavily traffic uh so you would disagree with our traffic
expert who said it's uh it carries very low traffic volumes uh i say that it's heavily
traffic because there are you know um there's through traffic uh and there's pedestrians that
utilize pastoria street uh you know headed to school or or whatever um there's a lot of traffic
uh there's a lot of traffic that's not necessarily you know pulling into you know residences
um there's a lot of i think there's a lot of deliveries you know um compared to some other
streets um but um yeah i'm not sure how else to answer your question uh street have higher
traffic volume or lower traffic volume than west pastoria street i would say more
okay uh and does uh top of hawkins street uh allow for on -street parking
uh it does okay so if you're pulling out of a uh uh pulling out of the property onto top of hawkins
you there would could be cars parked on uh the side of the street where you're pulling out of
there could okay and it's more heavily trafficked than pastori so there would be
more cars driving past you there could okay and on pastorius street uh obviously goes without
saying but there's no on straight uh on street parking allowed correct correct i mean i think
there's a sign right there that says no parking street so if you were pulling out there would be
you shouldn't have any uh sight line limitations and would be able to see any pedestrians or any
other traffic on that street, right? Actually, no, because all of these spots, if allowed to be
used, you're going to have the other vehicles on either side of you, right? You're going to have
like your view is blocked. I can't imagine this, you know, parking area being totally empty. If
it's in use, you're going to have vehicles on either side of you to the left or the right in
the same condition or worse than what you have going out onto onto the Pistorius or onto
Topohokin street. Like we have to, we have to think, we have to envision if this is in use,
you're going to have cars, like these are all going to have cars on, on either side of them,
each spot. Yep. Uh, but that wouldn't prevent you from seeing in front of you, right?
Well, no, but you're not driving, you know, in front, you're going to be making a left or,
or a right on to pastoria street you still have to inch out a little bit to see and then you know
um and then and then make your turn there's a difference between a car being parked
parallel to you and right next to you as opposed to a car being in front of you
um you know parked on the street when you're trying to take a right or left hand turn correct
there's a difference i mean that's um i think if you're pulling out onto the street looking left
or right um uh i don't think there's going to be that much of a difference uh whether or not that
car is right next to you you know parallel to you or perpendicular perpendicular to you uh a little
ahead you still have to move forward to see over over that you still have to move forward
And look both ways, right? Yes. Just like you look both ways before you take a left or right
onto past stories from your property, right? Yep. And I'm sure when you drive on past stories,
you are careful and aware and look for other pedestrians or other
traffic movements on the street, right? Yes. And you expect your neighbors who currently have
parking on pastoria street would do the same thing yep
parking on pastoria street would do the same thing yep okay no further questions
um really briefly uh no just really briefly mr uh rama so uh when you were talking about looking
both ways were you talking about driving forward or backing up oh driving forward okay um when
when those cars are parked um in the new parking spaces on mr bilby's property and they're backing
up is that going to be the same uh situation of of of um of being able to look uh right and left
and see anything not after backing up on the pastoria street when cars come out on top of
hawken from the property are they backing out of of the top of hawken curb cut or are they moving
forward moving forward um i also just wanted to show you the one photo that you were talking about
earlier is this the photo that you were that you were referring to earlier yes okay and this is uh
from a 2021 atlas philadelphia photo from uh from the city's website um what about this photo um
had you concerned so um you know these spots invite this type of of thing happening also
if it's a moving truck blocking half of the street and such um it's just unnecessary hanging
over the um you know hanging over the apron like that um you know you don't have that on the other
curb parking arrangements shown along um shown along pastoria street
um uh this is you know very much unlike what what you see uh on the street um and you know
while this spot may be you know designed appropriately on paper um no one's going
to be pulling up right to the house um you know right to the building um so this is one thing
that has concern you know that that concerns me um and uh yeah so you know and then like i said
you know this car could be parked on the interior of the property not not along uh pastorius like
that and i guess it may go without saying but all the cars that are parked on your property
none of them are close to the curb like that is that correct no i measured uh the first spot is
22 feet uh from from the the sidewalk okay no further questions phillips are you done
no very brief redirect um just on that same photo um
so this was the photo you were just uh looking at mr ramos
from 2021 yes okay uh looks different to me i'm not yeah it does look a little different
it looks like the car is is on a different angle and those and those fences weren't up before so
that's the exact point those fences were in your photo if you want to pull
i'll stop my share you want to pull your photo back up okay all right but this is uh the same
November 2021 atlas and there's this construction fence that's still up I don't know whose vehicle
this is but you can pull up your your photo uh okay there are some fences there but but the
defenses are blocking the sidewalk that's after the parking space not it doesn't the fences are
not blocking the parking space at all i do see that fence um and uh i absolutely do not believe
that that's what that those vehicles are going to be pulled up farther than that near the house
you know blocking people from walking parallel to the you know taking their groceries or whatever
walking parallel you know along these uh and getting their mail because they have to walk
there to get their mail. There's no way I'm going to believe that
cars are going to be pulled up farther past where that fence is.
We're not hearing you, Mike.
Can you hear me? We're not hearing at all.
Can you hear me? Oh, no.
We hear you. I can hear you, Mike. I was talking about Michael Phillips.
Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. I have to keep disconnecting.
and reconnecting. I apologize. I don't know what's wrong with my internet today, but I do not have
any further questions. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Masters, could you call your next witness, please?
Yes. Next witness is Susan Wright.
they have been promoted to panelists hi good morning
They have been promoted to panelists.
susan you are muted
okay there we go there we go morning hi hi good morning could you state your name please
is spelled for the court scenario certainly susan wright s -u -s -a -n -w -r -i -g -h -t right do you
swear affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth i do i proceed mr masters
um thank you um susan can you describe um where you live in relation to darren bilby's property
and the location of the proposed 15 new parking spaces they're um one door away from me
so there's
the back of
another property and then there
his I'm in about the middle
of the block
and what's the address of your
house? 51 West Pastoria
Street
okay I'm going to ask you
some questions about a traffic study
that you
the data that you recorded
but Mr. Chair
members of the board, we're having our expert witnesses who will be testifying at the next
hearing give their conclusions and interpretations, but we wanted to authenticate how this traffic
study was done and that's why we're going to have Susan Wright testify to that. So I'm going to pull
my screen here. Can I say something while you're pulling that up? Mr. Phillips said that was my
son and that is not my property and not my son okay um so this um this page uh page 90 in our
exhibit binder um can you can you talk to uh the board and and um and describe uh what equipment
you used for this traffic count? I used Google cameras. One is put by my hayloft door facing
Wayne Avenue, and one is facing Green Street. Okay, and they were both on your property at
251 West Pastorius? Yes, they are. And what were the dates of the count that you took?
I'm sorry?
What were the dates of the traffic count study?
They're listed here.
April 8th through 16th, April 29th through May 7th.
And you say it was a Google Nest camera.
How did this camera record vehicles or pedestrians or people that were moving through on Pastorea Street?
How did that work?
Well, I should have done a little bit more research because they only record when a person vehicle comes within about 20 feet of the camera.
You can see all the way down Green Street with my camera, but you can't see all the way.
You can't see the street all the way to Wayne Avenue because it dips down.
So I could only capture the cars that went past my home.
And when you say capture, each time a car or a pedestrian would go past your home, what would actually happen?
It was supposed to record all the time, but sometimes it didn't.
So when I would see a trash truck go by and it would not record it, for example, I don't know why it was big enough.
So did you did you reach a conclusion then about whether there was any undercounting of vehicles or pedestrians in your study?
I believe there were because I only included vehicles and people that were captured by the camera.
And that data is only saved in the cloud for 60 days, so it is no longer available.
But we did a very careful count with the time and everything on it.
And you're also in the comments, it looks like on the right -hand column, it looks like you have comments that are...
column it um it looks like you have comments that are that are that are recording uh the
the number of people uh who were not included in in the counts but but you but you must have
how did you how did you figure out that there were some people that were 20 plus people walking
that weren't part of your count um i didn't come to that conclusion
i only counted people that were recorded
right so when it says the camera omits persons who do not walk within 18 feet
um so you're saying that the people that you don't count are people who
are either further down pastoria's towards wayne or further up pastoria's towards green
because you're because you only have you only have so many so much width of what you're recording
is that is that what that means yes because if somebody came in from green street and turned
into mr billsby's property my cameras would not capture it the same with wayne avenue
okay there's only about 40 feet in the middle of the block that my cameras captured
Okay, got it. And like I said, members of the board, we're not going into interpretations or conclusions. We just wanted to show you who it was who did this study, and then at the next hearing, we will have some testimony from our experts in terms of interpretation.
um so um susan can you describe um any personal mobility issues that that you have um at this time
uh yes i'm my back is getting very bad and i walking to green street sometimes is impossible
for me i'm how many feet is that between your house and green street oh i i don't know less
than a block okay um when i go to grocery stores i use those electric carts or i leave if they're
not available um and i'm thinking about getting a mobility device and i'm a little concerned about
it because i can't get out of the i'd have to wait for a place to get out of the street
and cars aren't always very careful about avoiding pedestrians.
I've noticed that we have more traffic on the street
since a traffic light was put at Wayne and Talpahawken.
So some people will turn up Pastoria Street in order to avoid the light.
And I've seen tenants, they're not careful
because they don't know what's happening on the street.
And I've seen tenants from the Wallingford
be extremely careless of racing down the street
and just not being careful at all.
That there seems to be more care taken
by the people who live on the street,
who know their neighbors
and what their neighbors are limitations
and things like that are, as opposed to the tenants, certainly from the Wallingford.
But to be clear, Susan, do you use any kind of an assistive device right now to walk with?
I use a K most of the time, yes.
And when you said you were looking for some kind of a different piece of equipment,
was that going to be like a mechanized scooter?
Yes, an electric scooter.
Have you seen any change in traffic along Pastoria Street since Darren Bilby opened up his driveway, allowing the tenants to use the Topolhock and curb cut?
Yes, the traffic has gotten much lighter on Pastoria Street because I can't walk.
I drive and frequently I'm out sometimes six or seven times a day.
And because I'm an old lady, sometimes I leave the house, I get to the corner of Green and Walnut and say, oh, shit, I forgot something.
So I have to go down and around and come back again and then go out.
But there are far fewer people going in and out of Pastoria Street since he opened up because he had that blocked for quite a while, not allowing his tenants.
do you do you remember when that changed when he opened up the the curb cut on top of hawken
for his tenants no i don't okay do you have anything further that you wanted to share with
Okay. Do you have anything further that you wanted to share with the board?
I do. I've lived in this carriage house for two years, but I've owned it since 1983 when we renovated it. And probably around 1987. So this was a long time ago.
my son ran across the street to see me the dog trailed behind him the dog was hit by a car
and my point is that because it seems like there's not much traffic on the street people have
um they get careless they think oh there's no traffic here and
And I have to I don't have to be as careful as what happened when my roofer said, oh, somebody he knew fell off the roof.
And I said, well, was it really steep? He said, no, it was a flat roof.
He said people get careless on flat roofs because they think they're safe on a steep roof.
They're very careful. And that's just my point. And it's a very picturesque street.
A lot of people like walking down in the community because it's pleasant to walk down.
It's flat, and my kitchen sink is right in front of a window that I can see out onto Pastoreas.
And just about everybody who walks down looks up and down the driveways and is looking around at the architecture.
All right, thank you.
I have no further questions.
Mr. Phillips booted off at one point and then came back on.
Can I have a just a two minutes to just pause and reboot so I don't keep having these problems?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
we see mr phillips yet
no okay
Leonard Reuter is on
should he be promoted
you could
you could if you
Thank you.
Thank you.
hillary do we have mr phillips phone number
um let me check
i i have it i can send him a text and see what
he needed two minutes uh but he's been having a hard time with his computer
Right.
um darren bilby's hand is raised i don't know if he's coming in
um through mr bilby
uh michael says he's logging in right now
Okay. Yep, there he is.
My sincerest apologies to the board. My entire computer just crashed.
So you're going to cross now?
Yes. Okay.
All right. My apologies for that miswrite.
so just wanted to go over a few things so you your address is 250 west west stories is that
251 west west stories okay so if we're looking uh pull up a street view
so this here is the overview and then uh if i'm looking here is this your is this uh the house
or is this a neighbor's house that is my home okay and is this your parking yes it is okay
And how many parking spaces do you have?
I wouldn't.
They're not broken down into spaces that you could probably get four cars in there.
And that's your primary means of ingressing and egressing.
That's my only way.
Only way.
and uh presume you look both ways before you pull out onto pastorius
no i pull out extremely slowly and then i um then i look both ways
because i don't have a you can't see pulling out
now directly uh across the street from you there's a home being constructed is that
correct not directly across the street from me no okay directly across the street from the property
directly across the street from the property, from 224 Topohockin?
from uh 224 top of hawking are you
Are you aware of the home being constructed?
That is up the street from me.
That is not directly across the street.
It's farther down the street?
It's closer to Green Street.
Closer to Green Street and closer to the property at Topohockin, right?
At 224 Topohockin, closer to the subject property, too, right?
Yes, it is.
Mm -hmm.
And are you aware of whether that property is proposed to have parking?
I don't understand what your question is.
Is that property built going to have parking?
Was he going to have parking?
Correct.
I assume so, because he's closed off.
That's his property.
That property was recently subdivided.
From the larger lot that faces West Walnut Lane?
That's correct.
Now, you're a longtime resident of the community, right?
Yes, I am.
And you know the long history of this property.
Do you even remember when it was, before it was owned by Mr. Bealby?
Yes, I do.
And what was the use of the property then?
It was a nursing home.
AND DO YOU RECALL A MATTER INVOLVING UNITARIAN UNIVERSAL HOUSE ZONING MATTER GOING BACK A FEW YEARS?
I'M SORRY, I'M GOING TO OBJECT. WHAT'S THE RELEVANCE OF SOMETHING THAT WAS IN THE PAST?
ARE YOU TRYING, WHAT'S THE OFFER OF PROOF AS TO WHAT'S THE RELEVANT HERE?
THIS IS FROM A PRIOR OWNER?
IT'S FROM A PRIOR PROPOSAL AT THE PROPERTY IS IT RELEVANT TO THIS COUNCIL YES IT'S DIRECTLY
RELEVANT IT RELATES TO THE USE OF THAT SPACE IT DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE 2017
PROCEEDINGS IT DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE 2023 PROCEEDINGS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED WHEN THERE WAS THE NURSING HOME IN OPERATION
yes but there was a proposal with a unitarian uh universal house um that was proposed for
the property i just want to know if miss wright if she either recalls it or she doesn't recall
it i mean it's i i agree i i i we're we're not going to go there that's good no well it's
directly relevant what it's directly relevant because miss wright had testimony in that case
related to the use of this property in the green space and uh not disturbing it and that's directly
contradictory to her testimony i'm not going to allow no yeah thank you thank you mr chair
mr wright do you recall ever testifying at any proceeding that the interior space that i'm
dragging my cursor over should not be disturbed and that the i'm objecting that i'm objecting
that you're trying to ask a question that in a different way mr phillips i i think you need to
move on there's been testimony that by the objectors that my client should change the
entire parking proposal and provide some sort of egress on green street mr phillips i think
we're gonna move on all right and i know you're you're not agreeing with but that's fine i'm gonna
move on uh not agreeing but respecting it okay um so uh did you add this we'll go focusing back on
your house over here is that parking that you added after uh at some point yourself or was that
parking always there when you purchased no it was like that when we bought it and because of a horse
trough that was there i believe that that is the same amount of parking as when the house was built
in 1890 something did you at one point own the greater parcel including this parcel that leads
My husband and I purchased
the entire property and it was subdivided before we purchased it.
Mr. Phillips, so you know, we're still struggling to hear you.
Did you own it prior to the subdivision?
No, I did not.
No, I did not.
I see your point.
See you, Connie.
Mr. Phillips.
I have no further questions.
Thank you.
Before we go, Mr. Reuter, let me just, I think it's okay.
We're not going to get to Mr. Montadez today.
No, I understand.
I've already.
So we don't, you know, we're not.
Mr. Masters, you have any follow up questions? I don't. I just have my one more witness.
So what I want to do, can you do this witness in 10 minutes, please? Because we gave this two hours and we're just coming up on this now.
I believe so. All right. I mean, that depends on Mr. Phillips, but I but I don't.
Well, Mr. Phillips is going to try to pop up.
The next witness is Connie Winters.
Constance Winters has been promoted to panelists.
Hi, could you state your name, please, and spell for the court stenographer?
I'm sorry, can we have no more
screen sharing from Mr. Fox?
I'm sorry, chair. There seems to be a problem with
Constance. They are being promoted.
Okay. But it's not going through. There they go. Here they are.
Okay. Good morning. Could you state your name, please,
and spell for the court sonographer? Connie, you're muted at this point.
We can see your video, but we can't get your audio yet.
Can you hear me now? Yes. Good morning.
Could you state your name, please, and spell for the court stenographer?
Constance Winters, C -O -N -S -T -A -N -C -E -W -I -N -T -E -R -S.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Yes, I do.
Mr. Masters.
Good morning, Connie.
Can you describe the property that you own that is where it is in relation to Darren Bilby's property and the location of the 15 proposed parking spaces?
Well, I own 6120 Green Street, which faces Green Street, but has a garage that opens onto Pastoria Street.
um and you this is a property that you own but you don't personally live there is that correct
no i purchased it in the year 2000 and renovated it um to prop to for use as spaces that were
uh more compatible with a residential neighborhood okay do you have any training
in urban planning? I did. I went to graduate school in city planning, and I worked for the
National Capital Planning Commission and a private consulting firm before I moved to Germantown.
Okay, we're not asking Ms. Winders to be an expert witness, but we just do want the board
to understand that she has a background. I understand that you wanted to review the history
of the ZVA proviso for the board as part of your testimony?
Well, I want to thank the board for giving us so much time, and I will be really brief
because we've already had eloquent testimony about the pedestrian traffic on the street.
I just, I will be brief.
I just want to remind the zoning board that this was a variance originally that was granted
with a proviso, which I reread right before this hearing, and it was very clear that the
Zoning Board respected the theretofore use of Pastoria Street as part of a historic neighborhood
and one that's federally designated.
Their conclusion was that they would agree to the variance, and it was a variance.
for the use of multifamily provided that
there were Tulpahawken curb cuts only with no parking on
Pastorius. And I feel that the narrative has
been sort of redirected
from the upholding of the original variants, which is
very important to people who live in the neighborhood, by
continually reapplying so so council i'm going to let her finish um but a lot of what you cover
but a lot of what you cover, we're well aware of.
we're well aware.
I mean, I hear you're saying it's been changed,
but we're well aware of everything you're talking about.
Well, I just want you to know that four of the residents
or property owners on the street
have really gone to extraordinary efforts legally
and through expenses that are approaching $100 ,000
to uphold the use of this street
for the good of the neighborhood.
And I'm hoping I also want to remind you that the city policy is now to promote pedestrian use and discourage automobile traffic.
All of the people who have testified had use of their properties on Pastoria Street before Mr.
Billby applied for the variance. And the original proviso respected the previous occupants and
their use of the street. And I'm hoping this zoning board will too. Thank you.
Ms. Winters, do you have an opinion about whether any hardship that Mr. Billby might have in this
situation is his own creation? Or is that something that you wanted to share about with
the board? Yes, thank you for reminding me. Yes, if you can show the screenshots that I took
a couple of days ago of the way the townhouses were constructed with virtually no access from
the rear. There are rear doors, but there's a fence that encloses a patio. The parking for those
townhouses could have gone directly behind the townhouses that are now built. The parking that
is shown in front of the townhouses was built after the proviso. And with complete disrespect
to what the findings of the zoning board were.
I'll withhold it.
I agree with Mr. Phillips. We've already had testimony about that
and we understand it.
These are your photos, right, Connie?
He's put in additional parking at the
eastern end of the townhouses.
which I don't object to, except that those cars would now have to egress directly through the Pastorius Street opening that was forbidden.
And although the occupants of the townhouses can come out a back door, they come out into an enclosed backyard where Mr. Bilby did not even provide a gate that would allow direct access through to the existing parking.
So this is the gate that you're, I mean, this is the fence that you're referring to that has no gate?
That's the fence that shows no gate.
And it continues like that for all seven of the townhouses.
What are we looking at here with this parking space?
Well, that's an empty parking space directly behind the fences that have no access to the existing parking.
All of which was built after the original hearing.
So are you saying that this parking space could be used by by one of these tenants if there was a gate that would allow them to to to access the back of their the rear of their townhouse after they parked.
But since there is no gate, what are you saying?
Well, then, of course, it makes it look like the parking in front of the townhouses is necessary, but it isn't really necessary.
It's a hardship that was created by Mr.
building.
And what are we looking at here?
That's a picture of a ramp and what was a handicapped access to the previous nursing home.
And is this one of your photos also?
Well, that's the property that Mr. Phillips referred to as Mrs. Wright's son, but that's actually my son.
My property at 239 West Walnut Lane had a dilapidated carriage house and an uncultivated lot.
And an uncultivated lot.
And my son subdivided it and had a bi -right development of a single family house.
That's Susan Wright's house.
Were there more photos?
Because there's so many different photos.
No, I think that's it.
um have you um in in your in your knowledge and and and um and exploration of of the bilby
property have you discovered other locations on the property where he could put those 15 parking
spaces oh it's almost infinite i mean when when the maps are shown now they're shown
It shows parking that was created after the original application, but it could have been done very differently.
I develop properties in Germantown, and I try to do it with respect to the existing residents.
Is there anything else you wanted to add?
No, I don't need to take up any more time by reiterating what's already been said.
I appreciate your continuing to hear this.
We're not done. We've got to get Mr. Phillips. Mr. Phillips.
Excuse me. Can I just interject briefly, Mr. Chair? This is Hillary.
If any, obviously you've had a lot of documents in this case,
but if any of those photos were not previously submitted,
because I did not receive any supplemental packets for this hearing.
And I understand some of these photos were taken pretty recently.
You please have those to all parties by the end of today.
Yes, absolutely.
Thank you.
Proceed, Mr. Phillips.
Thank you.
And I will keep my time.
You're freezing up.
Ms. Willard, can you hear me?
We're not hearing you, Mr.
Ms. Phillips, we don't hear you.
Mr. Phillips, we're not hearing you, sir.
We're not hearing you, Mr. Phillips.
Mr. Phillips?
We're having really a hard time hearing you.
I apologize.
I am trying one more thing because my Internet keeps coming in and out.
you can hear me we hear you should be the last okay so i'll be very good yeah all right all right
um miss willard can you hear me uh this is miss winters
all right miss winters you own the house you you did own uh was it 239 west walnut lane
I do own 239.
And that has frontage just on Walnut Lane, right?
But it used to have frontage along Pastorius too, isn't that correct?
And you subdivided that property?
Yes, my son did.
uh and created this new lot so this is the front of your home right it's not my home it's a rental
property 239 is um and then this 240 was uh is is what was subdivided um and received
zoning approval um for the single family home correct yes okay um and you had said that all
the people who have parking along past stories had parking long before, but you, this property
didn't have parking before you. I was referring to the people who had already
testified. But this property has parking proposed as part of the approvals, correct?
Oh, that was a by -right approval. So I'm not sure what went into it, but there was no variance required.
But it provides for ingress and egress onto Pastorius.
Pardon me?
It provides for ingress and egress parking along Pastorius.
Uh, presumably I'm, I'm not familiar with it. I, my son handled it and it was by right.
Presumably, I'm not familiar with it.
You didn't have any concerns with, uh, the curb cut that was being created on Pastorious for your son's home?
Uh, well, it's one car. So, and whatever driveway is permanently created would have plenty of space.
It's a really large lot that he plans to landscape, and it's a beautiful home.
Sidewalk.
I see a sidewalk across the street.
Any sidewalk going to be built in front of your son's home?
I can't really speak to that.
Does your son own the home, or do you own it?
It's completely under his name.
I don't own it.
I'm sorry, my dog is barking in the back.
Pardon me?
You said someone was barking in the back?
No, I said, I'm sorry, my dog is barking in the back room.
She might object to the dog barking, but that's different than the son.
Do you own the building next to the Wallingford Apartments?
Yes, I do. I own 239 West Walnut Lane.
No, I do not own the building next to the Wallingford Apartments.
There's a White House between the Wallingford Apartments and my property at 239 West Walnut Lane.
You're a long -time resident of the area, though?
Yes, I've been in Germantown since 1976, and I live at the corner of Green and Walnut Lane,
and have since 1986.
Can you speak to the availability of on -street parking in Germantown?
It's becoming increasingly difficult because of the new zoning laws, which have promoted development without parking.
Do you agree that parking is important for many residents and individuals who own cars in the neighborhood?
Well, yes, it's very important, and it's also important that the parking be developed with respect to current usage.
is currently being used as a car as for vehicular travel correct you know pastory street is called
a public street but it actually was an alley it's only 14 feet wide whereas topahawken street is i
believe, 40 to 45 feet wide and was always, you know, traveled by vehicles and has plenty of
parking. So, Pastorius Street is used more as a through street or as a way to enter and exit
the properties or any properties with frontage along Pastorius, right? I'm sorry, I couldn't
here in the beginning of that you're breaking up mr phillips so is it fair to say the properties
along pastorius uh are often used for ingress and egress for their vehicles
yes that goes for the the property your son is building for uh miss willard uh mr ramos
Ms. Wright, they all have parking that's accessed via a curb cut on Pastorius, right?
That's true. They're all single -family owner -occupied homes. This was a development by
Mr. Bilby, subject to a proviso. We're not hearing you, Mr. Phillips.
No further questions.
All right.
Thank you.
Mr. Masters, you're done?
I believe so, yes.
All right.
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Winters, for your testimony.
And for being brief.
We're going to have a resumptive hearing on this November 14th at 930.
Thanks, everyone.
Just for the record, is there anyone in the virtual audience whose case has not been called?
I see no hands.
Everyone at 2 o 'clock. Thanks everyone.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Not tomorrow.
Thank you very much, everyone.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Bye -bye.
Have a good one.