How is that happening? Just brief me on it. And is there any tie-in with any of the schools -- public, parochial, or private?
The City contracted with an organization known as "TEACH," and that is the company that -- or the agency that provides both education and also provides undercover work.
By the means of which then code violations are issued against store owners who violate the ordinance.
And the bright side to that is there is a 75 percent payment rate in the first year?
The payment rate's about 55 percent. The 75 percent number represents our information back from TEACH as to the number of instances where they were unable to detect a violation, where they went in with a teenager who asked for tobacco and was properly carded. So there was that type of increase in merchants paying attention to the law. 327 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05
Is there any role potentially for the School District to assist, complement, underscore that effort?
Yes. There would be a role in education in the school, and that is the general role in schools of encouraging the nonuse of tobacco products.
Could you please forward my office any information about TEACH, the actual program.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. While we're speaking to Mr. Cermele, I read in your testimony where you talked about 328 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 fielding complaints from people when they call about the lien program.
You referred to the lien program in your testimony?
And you fielded questions -- your office fields questions from people with complaints. What do you do or what is the position with regard to the taxes exceeding the value of the property? What do you do when people call in with that issue with regard to the lien sale?
I've actually -- I am the so-called regularly appointed ombudsman for the tax lien sale. However, I delegated that duty to 329 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 Paula Weiss in my office, so I would call her up to answer that question.
Thank you. Good morning. My name is Paula Weiss. And in answer to your question, our office basically tries to mediate difficulties or problems between the taxpayer and any of the lien services or collection agencies. However, with regard to the details of their tax situation, that we really don't have any authority over that; that was all negotiated as part of the lien sale program with the previous administration, the Revenue Department, the Finance Department. We do have brochures available for people to offer them assistance to other agencies that may provide some assistance for low-income taxpayers specifically who need help in real-estate taxes, but we are not -- we do not 330 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 have any authority to really negotiate lower tax liabilities for any of the taxpayers. We do offer an opportunity for reduction of interest in penalty, although not the actual tax. We have a public hearing process where taxpayers have the ability to petition through our office, and we will have them come in and with a representative from the appropriate collection agency. And we do, when it seems appropriate or it's deemed appropriate, help them by reducing the interest in penalty burden on the tax, but we cannot -- we have no authority in our office over the actual tax itself.
Okay, thank you. Thank you, Judge Cermele. A finance question. On -14, Line 234, there is -- is that 2? I can't see anymore. Line 284 and 285, there is a total that appears to be doubled, this 137,014. Is that 100 percent increase? Or could you explain that figure?
The amount you're 331 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 speaking about, which is Grounds and Building Rental, and you'll notice that the increase is on the wrong line. There's something wrong with that formula.
Actually, there was a transfer ordinance that was amended by Councilman DiCicco, and he requested that money be put in the budget for a Community Court facility, and the reason it's a doubling in the budget is because the funding was only for half a year in the first year, and this year, it's for the full year.
How does the Community Court affect the Community Court for that area? I don't know, what do you mean by "Community Court"? Let me ask that.
Well, I think we should have Councilman DiCicco answer this one.
Does that -- 332 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 what funding does that provide? I don't really understand.
I was asking about Grounds and Building Rental, and it says "Rents-Other" on Lines 284 and 285 of our testimony. And I wasn't clear about that figure but she said it reflects Community Court facilities.
Yeah, you've got this money that, I believe, that was dedicated to the Community Court.
Now, I'm not certain how that would be impacted because we're now looking at 1401 Arch as opposed to an off-site 333 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 -- we were looking at a separate facility originally that was not attached to a court building, and I understand the court is moving a number of their offices and/or courtrooms into 1401 Arch. So I'm not -- I'm just raising that as a point of information. Now, that may change, that number, and that number could possibly change downwardly, I would assume.
-- that the budget prepared. This was how this number got --
Right. At the original time the request was made, we were looking for a courtroom facility for the Community Court somewhere around Eighth and Race in the former Metropolitan Hospital building, but that location now has been since changed and it's been agreed upon between the Municipal Court and the Community Court to locate in 1401 Arch.
Councilwoman, 334 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 I'm sorry, your five minutes have been up.
Miss Orfanelli, before we proceed further, I believe that Councilwoman Tasco asked about the Philadelphia Activities Fund for FY 2001. I believe you indicated that that was put into the Recreation budget?
Well, actually, it had been the Recreation Department. We actually supplemented it. Now it's all in the Recreation Department.
Well, I've asked Mr. McPherson to look into that, and our record book does not indicate that.
It's my understanding that it's there, but we will double-check and get you the documentation to explain it.
But it's never been $5 million, and yet you talk about -- on -18 --
-18 of the detail reflects an elimination of the Philadelphia Activities Fund, $5 million in FY 2001. We would love to have the $5 million back.
President Verna, that $5 million is the Philadelphia 2000.
The Activities Fund is the line below it, which shows 99,000 in 1999 and nothing in 2000.
All right. Is that being eliminated and that's being referred to the Recreation Department?
The $5 million that you're looking at was the money for the RNC.
Oh, okay. Are we up to $10 million for the RNC? I thought we had 5 million for the police, and now we have 336 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 another million that you're referring to. 3
This 5 million was actually 4 a contribution to Philadelphia 2000. That 5 5 million is our anticipation of costs for the Police Department related to -- overtime costs, for example, are related to the Convention.
Are there any other lines that we don't know about? And if so, how much is that going to cost?
Well, there was also a contribution in Public Property's budget, and that was 2 million.
Thank you. Can you just get clarification on the 337 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 terminology when we talk about "a contribution"? Is this contribution from the City, is this from some benevolent person somewhere? What do you mean by "contribution" in Public Property?
In Public Property, that's from the City (unintelligible) for communications equipment.
Well, there's a distinction between the Police Department money, which is our anticipation of the Police Department's costs for overtime and these two lines, which are contributions. But their costs -- our costs are $12 million.
And I mean I'm sure there will other costs when the Convention is actually here that will incur down at the site.
All right. The total cost is 12, but it sounds like hard costs to the City of 7 'cause you're getting 5 from 338 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 somewhere else outside of the government? Is that the better explanation of this?
No, it's not that it's outside the government; it's costs that we're incurring as opposed to -- it's costs for like police monitoring what's happening down there during the convention, like if there are protests like in Seattle.
All right, fine. Then what's the total cost to the City of the event?
I think what we need to do is put together -- we'll put together a table for you showing all those costs, 'cause I don't want to say something off the top of my head and miss something.
It's two pluses 339 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 we're up to, Madam Chair.
I think that what we should do is put together a table that gives you all the costs 'cause I don't want to tell you something now that leaves something out.
No. The 5 million shown here is in finances in FY 2000 costs, and the Public Property cost was also 2,000. The Police costs is FY 2001. So that one's an estimate.
Okay. Councilwoman Miller do you still want to be recognized?
Yes, Madam President, thank you. Thank you, Madam President. Good morning.
I have a couple of questions that are constituent-oriented. What is the nature of the refunds for City fees, taxes 340 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 etc. that people have sometimes overpaid? How long does it take for them to get their money back, what is the process? 'Cause we've had several complaints in that area that it takes too long, and we just want to know what "too long" is.
The refunds are handled through the Revenue Department, and I don't really have the specifics of the process or the timing, but we can certainly get that information to you.
Okay. And I was glad to read that vendors are now being paid within 35 days -- most vendors, you said. Is there an exact number of people now? 'Cause that's really been a big, big issue with lots of vendors and nonprofits groups that have submitted invoices over the years.
So this can come off to ask about checklists. 'Cause I know when I came here a few years ago, that was one of the questions that I had -- with the amount of time it took vendors to receive payment. And most recently, I had the same situation, but it was 341 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 with PHA and not your department.
Are you asking -- I'm sorry, Councilwoman. Are you asking for a vendor list?
I don't need a vendor list. I just want to know -- well, this is the question and process now that's in the system and people aren't really having that many problems anymore with the long term.
Okay. So it's almost there, though right? 'Cause you said "major," and I didn't know what you really meant. Now, some of the other questions I have are really for the unit that come under Finance. And do we need to wait for that unit or --
We can do it now, okay. On , Paragraph 2, you state that despite legal challenges, MBE Council contributes to ensure equal access to business opportunity 342 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 with the City. Would you please explain the kinds of legal challenges your office has experienced in trying to ensure that businesses owned by minorities, women, disabled, and the disadvantaged are given equal access to business opportunities with our city? (Witness comes forward.)
The question -- do you want me to repeat the question?
No, no, I understand the question, Councilwoman. Good morning, everyone.
My name is James Roundtree, and I am Deputy Finance Director and the Director of the Minority Enterprise Council. Since 1990, the City of Philadelphia Minority Business Program has been under legal challenge, and as recently as 1994, a judge ruled that certain parts of our minority, women, and disabled business programs was ruled unconstitutional. Since, then we have been mounting a 343 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 number of legal challenges, and the accurate term escapes me now, when the lawyer -- when they make a ruling and then we counter the ruling. But right now, we're in the process of completing a disparity study that will be presented to Council for Council to determine whether or not they want to enact new legislation. As part of my testimony that's going to be later this afternoon is that as a result of the legal challenges as well as the Ordinance 17500 sunsetting in December of '98, we are now working under an Executive Order 193 that provides for anti-discrimination, meaning that the City will assure that all companies have access to the contracting process. Does that answer your question, Councilwoman?
Yes, partly. I'll probably ask it later on again in a different way when you come up.
One other thing. Would you please explain how the City has benefitted from our past tax lien sales in 344 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 comparison to the tax lien properties the Law Department kept and collected the revenues on? COMMISSIONER KAMMERDEINER: Yes. Councilwoman, this is Nancy Kammerdeiner. Would you mind repeating your question?
Okay. Could you please explain how the City has benefitted from our past tax lien sales in comparison to the tax lien properties the Law Department kept and collected the revenues on? COMMISSIONER KAMMERDEINER: I think the first and major thing is that with the tax lien sale, we got funding at one time all up front, and that was particularly important to the School District at the time that the liens were sold, but it was also important to the City as well. We would have collected a substantial amount of that money over time, but probably over about a 10-year time period, and so the main benefit from the sale was to get the funding all at one time and to be able to put that to work either directly for the expenditures of the City and the School District or to earn additional interest, as in the case of the City with the 345 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 senior note that was established and we're getting payment over time, but that payment includes the interest earnings on a substantial amount of money.
Mm-hmm. COMMISSIONER KAMMERDEINER: In terms of -- I think the second part of your question there, though, in reference to the properties held by the Law Department, we have continued as a city to collect against the liabilities that are against those properties that stay in the City's inventory, and we've had substantial success with sheriff's have sales in getting funding that will come in either because of the threat of the sale, which is the main way we get the payment of the tax, or the actual sale of the property at a sheriff's sale. And I would say though we had a short period of time immediately after the tax lien sale while we regrouped and dealt with the internal paperwork and adjustments for the lien sale, we are now back on track with sheriff's sales and a program that the Law Department called "Sequestration," where if there is a rental 346 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 property and there's rent coming in for it, they can get the court to identify a party known as "a sequestrator" who then ensures that the property has sufficient funding to continue to operate without detriment to the tenant, but the balance of that rental income comes to the City to pay off the delinquent real-estate taxes and other taxes as well until the City is made whole. And that's been a very successful program, and we're better able to manage that by having some smaller number of properties that we're dealing with.
In some of those cases that you just described, some of the landlords are absentee landlords so that if the renter is paying the taxes, then who will become the owner of the property? COMMISSIONER KAMMERDEINER: The property doesn't change hands under a Sequestration Program.
Okay. COMMISSIONER KAMMERDEINER: The property stays with the owner, but the rental income that that owner would have gotten is held 347 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 by the sequestrator, and some of that rental income is used to maintain the property so that it doesn't become dilapidated, but the balance of that rental income comes to pay the taxes and not to profit to the property owner until those taxes are paid.
Okay. COMMISSIONER KAMMERDEINER: It ensures the priority of payment.
Right. You had your first sheriff's sale under the tax lien, what, about a month -- COMMISSIONER KAMMERDEINER: In January, mid-January.
How did that turn out? How was that -- how successful or unsuccessful was that? COMMISSIONER KAMMERDEINER: There were, I believe, 43 properties scheduled for the tax lien foreclosure through the sheriff's sales process, and I believe nine of them were actually sold. There were four or five that had settlements prior to the sale, so they were stayed from the sale, and that means that funds were 348 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 collected on those. The balance of the properties were postponed to come back up again for sale in April, and we're hopeful that at that time, there will have been more interest that will have been generated in these properties and we'll see more buyers coming forward to the sale. The next sale is scheduled for this Wednesday, and there are properties from the tax lien sale coming up for foreclosure each month.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Goode.
Thank you, Madam President. Miss Orfanelli, my question is regarding the current affirmative action policy. I think Mr. Roundtree explained it very well, but how would that policy be executed with regard to financing sport facilities, stadium renovations, new stadiums, or new practice facilities?
Mr. Roundtree will be back to answer your question. 349 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 (Mr. Roundtree returns to witness table.)
Yeah, my name is James Roundtree. Councilman Goode, the way most of those programs work under the TIF activity, each developer has to submit a development plan that identifies a level of participation for minority, women, and disabled businesses, as well as the employment goal on many of them. And each one of the sports facilities, the MBEC participated preliminarily in assisting and identifying businesses that could participate on various aspects of it. I believe with the exception of the architect for the Eagles stadium, we met with the Eagles representatives and we came up with a formula for the utilization for minority and women in the construction activity.
And how is that policy impacted by PIDC and PAID financing versus Capital Program financing? Are the guidelines the same regardless of where the financing comes if?
No. The guidelines 350 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 aren't. It is up to the individual funding source whether or not they utilize either 193 or they establish a policy of their own. They have reached out in a number of instances to include 193, which is the prior administration's executive order for affirmative action, or it's really -- 193 is really an anti-discrimination policy program.
So if sports facilities are, quote/unquote, publicly financed by PIDC or PAID, they do not follow the City's affirmative action guidelines?
With regard to the blight removal plan, if the funding is done, the financing is done through the Redevelopment Authority, they also will not follow the affirmative action guidelines?
Are you 351 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 finished?
Miss Orfanelli, there's a few more questions I'd like to ask you. You indicate in your testimony that the City has enhanced its various revenue streams. Have these enhancements resulted in increased collections? And if so, how has this been factored into the Administration's revenue estimates for the FY 2001 Budget and the Five-Year Plan? Have they been included?
The short answer is yes, and the long answer Rob will explain.
Don't take too long because I'm being timed, too.
Okay. Well, I'll give you an example. One of the ways in which we've improved collections is through the suburban wage tax withholding legislation, so that increased our revenues, I think, actually by about $20 million, and that 20 million is already in our base. So as we improve our collections, each 352 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 facet of that improvement winds up going into our base, so they're all included in our assumptions going forward.
Miss Orfanelli, on -63 of the detail, why are you projecting that Risk Management's overtime will increase by over 40 percent while the rest of the department will remain at the FY 2000 level despite the annualization of the March pay increase? (Witness comes forward.)
Madam President, my name is Joseph Perrello, Deputy Director of Finance for Risk Management. The reason for the increase in overtime is that we have greatly expanded the use of the Emergency Response Program throughout the City for claims that happen after hours. We basically have a program where we have at least four or five dedicated people within Risk Management who are on call hours a day, 7 days a week. And our 23 experience over the last half of last year has 24 indicated that in order to give proper service to these people, we need to be able to get to them 353 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 any hour of the day, any day of the week to provide them with the necessary services that they need, and that's the reason for the increase.
Thank you. On -42 of the detail for the Accounting Bureau, it shows that the budgeted overtime remains as it did for FY 2000 level. How do you plan on staying at this level with the pending March 2000 pay increase?
We will be able to maintain this level without an increase by -- I guess really what we're doing is using more systems and decreasing the time for people to come in, trying to get more work done during the day. We've actually done a lot of, I guess, restructuring of how the jobs are being done.
Generally, the biggest part of overtime is really in our payroll unit. The other large bulk of overtime is in the preparation of the annual report, which comes at the end of the year, when we have a big push on to meet the deadline imposed by the Government 354 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 Finance Officers Association. But the big chunk really is payroll. And payroll -- payroll's always a problem because of holidays and weather and a lot of unexpected things. We're at the end of the line and we wait for everything from all of the other departments, and when the departments have problems, we have to stay open to accommodate them. In the summer, when the Recreation Department is hiring multitudes of people for programs, we have to work on the weekend to make sure those people get paid. So it's kind of -- you know, we're kind of that the effect of what's going on throughout the City, and we try to work smarter but sometimes it's impossible.
Thank you. On -72 of the detail, what was the City's contribution to the School District in FY 2000? To my memory, I thought it was $15 million. However, -72 reflects a $17.4 million payment. Who received the $2.4 million, and why are they being reduced in FY 2001? 355 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05
I think that estimate is actually going to wind up being inaccurate in that we'll wind up putting more of that money into our indemnities number. In other words, I don't think there's going to be a reduction in 2000 in on contribution, and I don't think our contribution for 2000 will be --
But City Council approved the $15 million, did they not, Mr. Dubow?
I think it's just a bad number. We're not -- that's not the number that's going to --
Oh, okay. We all make mistakes. On -75 of the detail, Miss Orfanelli, you do not provide a detailed breakdown of the $120 million in payments to other funds. 356 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 Explain what funds these payments are to and how they are reflected in the City's revenue estimates.
This revenue to other funds is really a reserve for appropriation power. It's a contingency fund. I believe you'll notice that it's in our budget every year. The number has stayed pretty much consistent. I believe I was doing the budget years ago, and the number 11 was around the same. 12
And we like to make sure we 13 have appropriation power there in case there are 14 grants that we haven't anticipated coming in. 15
Thank you. I would just like to ask Mr. Cermele a question or two. Mr. Cermele, why has your office assumed the responsibility of the contract obligations between the Philadelphia Traffic Court and Lockheed-Martin for data processing and collection activity? How and when was this transfer of funding and responsibility done?
Yes, yes. Madam President, we were approached by the First Judicial District to take over the payment of the 357 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 contract for the collection process that Lockheed-Martin does for the Philadelphia Traffic Court, and that money was transferred out of the First Judicial District budget into our budget as part of the settlement of the mandamus action that the First Judicial District took against the City. All was pursuant to an Intergovernmental Cooperative agreement between the First Judicial District and the Finance Department.
How many people do the Traffic Court deploy in the area of monitoring the Lockheed-Martin contact and also in the area of the collection activity?
We have taken over four employees of the Traffic Court, who directly manage the court's production control account -- that is the checking account, a bank account that the court uses to make payments to the City, to the state, and to Lockheed, and we've taken over the management of that account and the supervision of those four employees. Aside from those four employees, we have two other employees, who are employees of the Finance Department, who constitute the members of 358 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 the Contract Compliance Unit.
Thank you. I think my five minutes are up. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam President. I guess Mr. Perrello is at the table and I know he's not given formal testimony, but I guess he's fair game now since he's up there. Does the City currently oppose Workman's Compensation claims for firefighters who have been infected with Hepatitis C, that group of people that have been identified, that cohort of people suggested that the Mayor has suggested we provide $3 million in additional medical benefit to? Does the City -- do they have Workman's Compensation claims pending, and is the City currently opposing them?
Councilman, there are currently between 6 and 25 claims that the Risk Management Department is reviewing for Worker's Compensation as far as being work-related. The City will never oppose any valid Worker's Compensation claim where it can be shown that the 359 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 disease was contracted through on-the-job exposure.
I mean, considering what the City has already done, or the Mayor has committed to, there seems to be some acknowledgment on the part of the Administration that by providing the $3 million in additional medical benefits, that there's some work relation to those infected and their duties. In that regard, how could we be opposing any of them if, in fact, we're acknowledging on one hand that they're work-related, by providing additional money for their medical benefit, but on the other hand, we're still waiting and haven't taken a position, I guess, yet on whether or not their Workman's Compensation claims are work-related?
The announcement that the Mayor made back in the end of the January, he specifically stated that the reason why the City 360 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 was making the contribution was basically just as a humanitarian gesture to the firefighters who are affected so that they will not have any out-of-pocket exposure for the medical care needed to treat this disease. A decision was made by the Mayor and the Administration that we would handle Worker's Compensation claims on a case-by-case basis based on their exposure to the job. The City has had for some years a blood-borne pathogen program in place basically so that any firefighter or any employee, for that matter, of the City who believe they might have come in contact with any blood-borne pathogen has to wait to (unintelligible) to get proper treatment and care. And we believe that Hepatitis C should be handled in a similar fashion as Hepatitis A and B have been treated for sometime. And we'll continue to treat them that way, and we will not try to arbitrarily presume that any Hepatitis C is or is not related; we wait until we look at all of the facts. The fact that the Mayor put up the money was basically just an extension of the Mayor's effort to take care of a 361 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 situation which needed to be treated.
Would not the approval or the cooperation in the obtaining of Workman's Compensation benefits for these affected City employees be a humanitarian gesture based on the number of people, the percentage of the cohort of people that are affected as it relates to the infection rate in the general population? I mean, are we asking them that they have to prove something that it's almost impossible for them to prove?
No, we're not, Councilman. What we're basically saying is that any firefighter who has been affected by Hepatitis C merely has to present to us his bills for payment. And basically the program is set up now, and here again, as Linda Orfanelli mentioned earlier, we are meeting later this week with firefighters basically to set up a protocol for how we're going to handle the program.
That's for the $3 million, yes. 362 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05
Then why is there a leap or a gap between that acknowledgment on the $3 million and the acknowledgment of the work-related infection that would perhaps cause us to oppose a Workman's Compensation claim?
At this point in time, Councilman, we see these as two separate and distinct things. We see the $3 million as an extension of the Mayor's humanitarian gesture to aid firefighters who are in medical distress because of their inability to afford the out-of-pocket expense, the great expense caused by these drugs. The fact remains that the City will acknowledge and will accept any valid work-related claim where Hepatitis C was contracted through on the job exposer, and the City will not contend those claims.
What is the level of proof that's required? What are the infected firefighters being asked to provide that would give the City a level of comfort that, in fact, they had contracted this disease in the performance of their duties? 363 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05
Basically, the first thing that happens is that we ask the firefighter if he believes he was exposed to any blood-borne pathogen to prepare an exposure report and file 6 with the Safety Office in the Fire Department. Once we receive a copy of that exposure testing, then we will begin testing that firefighter to make sure -- and we will test him on an ongoing basis through a period six month to see if he has a positive reaction to the Hepatits C. If that's a fact, then we have a cause-and-effect relationship and we will accept the claim.
And we have approximately how many in process right now?
I believe we have somewhere 6 and 25 but when we give our actual testimony, Jane Lewis, from the Employee Disability Unit, will be able to help us more with that.
What's the downside to the City in taking the claims that are there 23 now, looking at the percentage, as I talked about 24 earlier, with the incidence of this infection 25 amongst firefighters as compared to in the general 364 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 population and basically saying, you know, circumstantial evidence would indicate that this is, in fact, how it happened, and what's the downside to the City in approving the claims? 6
The only downside, 7 Councilman, that I can see right now is one of 8 credibility. If we do a comparison, here again, 9 we're basing our information at this point in time 10 primarily on the information we get from the 11 Center of Disease Control and also some of our 12 experts that we've used from the University of 13 Pennsylvania. 14 And even though the incidence of 15 Hepatitis C in the general population is only 16 2 percent, if we look at the microcosm of 17 firefighters, primarily white males in the age 18 bracket between 30 and 50, and we see an incident 19 of Hepatitis C in that population of about 20 4 percent, if we look at Hispanic and 21 Afro-American people in the same range, we have an 22 incidence of about 6 percent, if you overlay that 23 with a population that were Vietnam veterans -- 24 and most of the firefighters, or at least a large 25 percentage of the firefighters are Vietnam 365 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 veterans -- we have a percentage rate ranging from to percent. 4 So if you take the 4 percent from 6 5 percent and overlay that with the Vietnam veteran 6 rate of 10 to 12 percent, we basically believe 7 that the incidence that we're seeing in the 8 firefighting population is about what we would 9 expect to see. 10
So what I then 11 suppose from that line of reasoning is that they 12 acquired their Hepatitis C in Vietnam and not as a firefighter.
No, we're not saying that's the case universally. What we're saying is that the incidence that we're seeing is what we would expect to see if that age and that demographic population. And what we need to do is for every case where we believe there's a cause and effect for a work-related injury, we will honor that claim without any --
I guess I go back to the question before, and that was, what is the acceptable cause and effect that -- or an example of an acceptable cause and effect that would in 366 12/14/00 - WHOLE - Operating Budget - 05 fact make someone eligible for a Workman's Compensation-related claim?
Basically, an exposure report that can be verified that the person had blood-to-blood contact with somebody who had Hepatitis C.
But considering the cohort of people we're talking about and the procedure that they followed 10, 12, years ago, 11 it would seem virtually impossible to determine 12 that in any certainty -- I guess in a certainty 13 that the City would like to determine it in, where 14 an individual who responded to a car accident in 15 1975 would have to track down the people in the car and determine whether or not they were in fact infected with Hepatitis C, and then make that cause-and-effect relationship. I mean, isn't that virtually impossible for a working person or for any person to do, considering the length of time that's passed?