COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, January 29, 2003 2:15 p.m. - - - BILL 020732 - an Ordinance amending Title 4 of the Philadelphia Code (The Philadelphia Building Construction and Occupancy Code), Subcode PM, (The Philadelphia Property Maintenance Code), by adding provisions relating to the maintenance of exterior property areas. BILL 020809 - an Ordinance amending Title 9 of the Philadelphia Code, relating to regulation of business, trades and professions, by amending Chapter 9-1300 entitled "Home Inspection Business," by making certain changes to the license requirements, the license fee, the required conduct, and other provisions, all under certain terms and conditions. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO, Chairman COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN MICHAEL NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - V A R A L L O, INCORPORATED 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 (215) 561-2220 I N D E X BILL 020732 PAGE OTIS HAIGLER, JR., L&I ..................... BILL 020809 OTIS HAIGLER, JR., L&I ..................... GRAY SMITH ................................. 3 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020732
This is a public of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. The Clerk will read the title of Bill 5 NO. 020732.
Bill No. 020732, an ordinance amending Title 4 of the Philadelphia Code, Subcode PM, by adding provisions relating to the maintenance of exterior property areas.
The Chair recognizes Otis Haigler from Otis Haigler from L&I. Well, we have a quorum Councilman Clarke Councilman Ortiz, Councilman Cohen, Councilman Nutter, Councilman Mariano, and Councilman Rizzo is around the corner.
Good day, Councilman Mariano, Members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., Legislative and Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licences and Inspections. Today, I'm here to provide testimony on Bill 020732, which if enacted amend Section PM 302.2 of the Philadelphia Property Maintenance Code by prohibiting the storage of certain materials on the exterior of properties in the City. The Department supports this bill and 4 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020732 the amendments which will be submitted by Councilwoman Krajewski. We're prepared to enforce its provisions subsequent to passage by the full Council and being signed into law by the Mayor. Thank you for the opportunity to provide the Department's testimony on Bill 020732. I'll be happy to answer any questions at this time.
Thank you, Mr. Haigler. Are there any questions from anyone on the committee or anyone in Council?
This is just that we're telling people that you've got to keep your front clean, right, and free of --
The bill itself indicates that you have to keep the exterior, exterior property clean.
Free of rubbish, debris, and certain other types of materials that may accumulate on your property.
And if you don't do that, what type of punishment should we mete out to 5 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020732 them?
The Department cites the individual for violation of the Code and follow all the enforcement processes that we have in place, meaning that if they don't comply within a certain time period as described, we seek enforcement action against them in court.
The fine can be anywhere from 150 to $300 per offense. That's the standard in the City's code under -- the standard fines that can be levied for most property violations in the City.
Thank you, Councilman. Councilwoman Krajewski has just joined us. Anymore questions for Mr. Haigler? (No response.)
Seeing none. Anyone else to testify on this bill? 6 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 (No response.)
Bill 020809, an ordinance 6 amending Title 9 of the Philadelphia Code, relating to regulation of business, trades and professions, by amending Chapter 9-1300 entitled "Home Inspection Business," by making certain changes to the license requirements, the license fee, the required conduct, and other provisions, all under certain terms and conditions.
Good day, Councilman Mariano and Members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., Legislative and Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today, I'm here to provide testimony on Bill 020809, which if enacted will amend Section 21 9-1300 of the Philadelphia Code by making certain changes to the licenses requirements governing home inspectors. The Department fully supports this bill 25 and has worked in corporation with the home 7 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 inspection industry, Greater Philadelphia Association of Realtors, Risk Management, Law Department, and Councilman Kenney's office to reach a consensus in interest of consumer protection, which is common goal. Bill 020809 provides for local oversight of the home inspection industry to ensure that persons who represent themselves as home inspectors in the City have met certain standards in order to be licensed by the department. Included, as part of the City's licensing requirements for home inspectors, is the accreditation of the Home Inspector by a nationally recognized professional organization and the maintenance by the home inspector of commercial liability insurance naming the City as a certificate holder. With the passage of this bill, the Department will have tools to bring enforcement action against persons who violate its provisions and prevent unqualified persons from misrepresenting themselves as a home inspector in order to take advantage of consumers. The Department is appreciative of the work professionalism of all persons involved who assisted with the amendments to Bill 020809. 8 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 Thank you for the opportunity to provide Departments's testimony on Bill 020809. I'll be happy to answer any questions at this time.
Any questions from anyone on the committee on this bill with Mr. Haigler? (No response.)
Seeing none. We have a couple other people to testify?
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. My name is Gray Smith. I am an architect practicing in Philadelphia and other parts of Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Occasionally as one of my services, I inspect and prepare reports on residential and mixed used properties for defects for clients who are considering purchasing those properties; so do many, many of my colleagues. I have brought today a brief statement that was prepared by the Philadelphia Chapter of the American Institute of Architects. Since architects feature prominently in the revisions that are proposed in this bill, the AIA has a position it would like to take, and they've asked me to present it. 9 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 "AIA Philadelphia is responding to Bill 3 No. " "The AIA is always supportive of the professionalization and regulation of technical services, particularly in the interest of consumer protection. The licensing of home inspectors has been a good step in that direction. " And I might say that the architectural community was not consulted by L&I when this was prepared, although the home industry was, and I dare say we should have been. "The AIA Philadelphia opposes the proposed he elimination of the exemption from the requirement of a separate license to perform residential inspections of a validly licensed architect under the laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The education and rigor of the state licensing process more than qualifications a licensed AIA architect for the purposes of 10 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 performing such services and it represents a duplication of licensing at the state and local level to eliminate -- to require architects to get a local license for this service. We strongly recommend that this paragraph not be deleted from the current ordinance as it has been proposed. It would be superfluous for an architect to have a home inspection license. " Architects have professional liability service, most of us do and most firms do. We understand the importance of that type of insurance, to protect clients. Incidentally, AIA Philadelphia represents approximately a thousand registered architects in the Philadelphia region and over 250 architectural firms. " This letter is signed by John Claypool who is the executive director of the AIA. 11 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 Now, on a personal note -- and this is from gray Smith, Architect. I have some additional comments on Bill 020809. I agree with the AIA Philadelphia's comments and concerns. I would urge you to consider them and make the changes that they recommended. I would add, however, that there is the nagging matter of enforcement. The ordinance is lacking in that regard in spite of what Mr. Haigler said about being able to police those who practice unlicensed. There is simply no method proscribed in the ordinance or the regulations for regulation and punishment of non-licensed home inspectors. A home inspector can do a home inspection without any contact whatsoever with L&I or the Department of Health or the Streets Department or any other department in the City except to get a license, of course. Virtually every other Philadelphia license activity, there's about 150 licenses, require some administrative interplay with the Department of Licences and Inspections or the Department of Health or Department of Streets. This ordinance and its regulation do not. There's no way in the world that L&I can know that un-licensed home inspection work is on the way. Home inspection work, unlicensed, 12 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 can therefore be performed with impunity. Therefore, I strongly suggest that before you amend this bill some more work is needed on how this ordinance can be policed. Otherwise, obtaining a home inspection license will simply be a matter of conscious and nothing else. Thank you for the opportunity to the present my concerns.
Thank you, Mr. Smith. Before I ask the committee about questions, you understand this isn't an L&I bill. This didn't come down from L&I. This was introduced at the request of a Councilmember, just so that's clear. This was Councilman Kenney's bill.
Any questions from anyone in the Committee? Councilman DiCicco.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon, Mr. Smith. I'm just not totally clear, and it's the first time I ever actually had a chance to look at the bill and your 13 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 comments. Is the AIA's concern, as you articulated in the letter, that this -- their concern is that it's going to basically broaden the pool of people who would qualify under this proposed bill to perform the inspections and not have it more narrowly defined as architect or someone --
No. The ordinance as it exists now has a broad acceptance of people who can do home inspections, usually people that are qualified by national organizations. And also the current bill says licensed architects and engineers can perform home inspections, however, we don't have to have a home inspector's license from the City of Philadelphia. We don't have to pay our 300 bucks every three years to get one because we're licensed architects. We can do this work under our current state license with great authority and experience. And most of us are insured with professional liability insurance for architects errors and omissions. We're concerned that this bill -- because Item 9-13023 which previously said architects and engineers, architects particularly, don't have to get a home inspection license because, 14 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 hey, we do it right already.
You're covered by the fact that you're licensed architects.
What No. 3 does is it changes that. It now says that, "Oh, now, all the architects in town, every time you do -- if you want to do any kind of home inspection, which you do many, many times during the course, you've got to run into L&I and get this superfluous license for 300 bucks and help fatten the coffers of the City of Philadelphia. I mean, I know you need the money, but I'd rather pay it from my business privilege taxes rather than, you know, keep tacking on additional superfluous licenses that I have to have in order to perform what I do as a matter of course under my Pennsylvania architects license, which trained me significantly well, more than a home inspector, for example, to be able to undertake the kind of work that is spelled out in this ordinance.
I am generally someone who tries to make doing business in the City of Philadelphia a lot more easier and less costly.
But not to be 15 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 contradicting my own philosophy, could not that licensing fee be part your overall fee to the customer who you're performing the inspection for in the first place? Or is it the logistics of having to go in and get the license and does that add to the cost?
The cost is not that big a problem, frankly, but it's a superfluous license. I mean, I'm already licensed to do this kind of work. All the architects in Pennsylvania are licensed to do this kind of work. And, frankly, all engineers are too; they're not here to speak for themselves. They should not be required to get all these duplicative, superfluous licenses in order to perform what they're already licensed to do already. And we feel it's improper to do that. If there was some kind of reporting process which every time somebody in the City of Philadelphia performed a house inspection as defined by this ordinance, some sort of reporting process to L&I or the Department of Records which triggered that activity so the only time it could be done is if there's some kind of permit or something that's secured in the City, then the enforcement would be there to make sure that the 16 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 proper people are doing it.
Doesn't that happen as a result of a property owner, when necessary, to get a CO.
No. You don't have to get a home inspection. You're not required to. The real estate purchase agreement that's recognized in Pennsylvania has the option of a buyer of a piece of property to secure a home inspection and also to be able to cancel the agreement on the basis of defect found in the home inspection that increase the problem with the property. None of that is reported to the City.
Excuse me. Councilman, Mr. Smith, maybe to enlighten all a little more, could we have Mr. Haigler back here? Mr. Haigler, come you come back here? Is there anything L&I can enlighten us on what Mr. Smith is saying? The Councilman has some good questions here.
If I can just 17 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 follow up. How about on new construction and renovations, Mr. Smith, doesn't the City, the Department of L&I require a CO?
And a certificate of occupancy even with a single-family residence.
Mr. Haigler, could you answer Councilman DiCicco's questions, please.
Good day again. I'm Otis Haigler, Jr., Legislative and Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. I've heard several comments and I'm guess I'm here to address those comments.
Well, the first comment is what Councilman DiCicco asked. Do you 18 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 need a certificate of occupancy? When and do you need that, when you build a house or a building?
New uses defined under the Building Code where you change uses from one use to another use you would need certificate of occupancy. You would need a certificate of occupancy for new construct.
How about in the case of a single-family residence that undergoes renovations.
Regardless of the percentage of the square footage of home that is being renovated? I mean, you can get a home, an existing single-family and tear out everything except the exterior walls. Is a CO required?
To my knowledge and as I know, no, because there is no change in use so you would not need one.
Does only pertain to single-family or does it change if you go to multi?
That would be any change in use designation that's defined under the Building 19 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 Code. If you change, say, from a single family, a R3 designation to a R2 designation which would be multi-family, then you would need the certificate of occupancy. If you changed your residential use to the commercial use under the Building Code, you would need a certificate of occupancy.
I mean, it's not part of this bill, but it's interesting that I thought that was a requirement. I mean, my sons did a total rehab of a corner property. The only thing that was left were the exterior walls.
You would need to meet whatever zoning requirements there would be.
Well, they did that. Trust me, me being their father, they certainly went to the zoning board.
They did all that. I'm just thinking that -- I know they did a home inspection because they actually changed the use, but I think that should be a requirement in any situation when you have a significant amount of rehab. The use may not be changed but the floor 20 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 plan changes and who's to say that the architect or the engineers or the builders --
Well, this requirement, sir, what you're alluding to is based on the City's enforcement of the National Building Code which is a national standard. What alluding to is something that's nationally recognized as far as when a certificate occupancy is required, when it would not be required, so it's not just something locally; it's something that's a uniform standard throughout the industry.
Thank you, Councilman. Mr. Haigler, some of Mr. Smith's other statements, his problems with his bill, could you enlighten us on that? Because as far as I see it, there's some problems here.
Problems in enforcement. We can enforce this. We will enforce it. We will enforce it, and I'm not going to get into a debate with Mr. Smith --
How will you 21 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 enforce it?
There are provisions of our administrative code that alludes to the enforcement of all ordinances, laws that adopted by the City. We right out violation notices as a matter of due process notifying the individual that they have violated the law. I think what Mr. Smith is alluding to is how will we catch someone who may have done an inspection, a home inspection. Generally, the public lets us know. The public informs us that somebody came to my home, they represented themselves as a home inspector. We would do a records check to make sure whether or not that person met our qualifications, be licensed. If they have done that, then they would have met all the standards that are required to obtain that license, including having the insurance, including being recognized by nationally recognized organizations, which means -- if I can just finish that train of thought -- which would also mean that that person would have had to meet certain ethical standards of that organization as far as submitting so many inspections in order to be certified by that organizations and having those inspections quality 22 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 checks on those types of inspections to make sure that they were following the guidelines of that organization. That's just a requirement.
On that, Mr. Haigler, say for a whim I feel like hiring a friend of mine, Hughy Gallagher that's a highway cop and on the side he's a home inspector. So I feel like hiring Hughy to inspect my house tonight or next week. Only Hughy and I know about that. Is that your problem, Mr. Smith? I mean, I know Hughy legitimately does this and he has a company and he's everything you said. But is that the problem as far as you see it, Mr. Smith? Because there's no way of telling what transpires between me and Hughy unless Hughy cheats me.
And you complain about it and the Department acts on your complaint to investigate your complaint. Naturally, the homeowner, they take a certain risk when they hire persons to work on their behalf. It's not the Department's, I guess, proposition of pushing this out in the forefront. What we're trying to do is we're trying to say that we do get the complaints. We get the complaints from the property owners as to 23 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 who's qualified, who has met the City's qualifications to do certain types of work. And this will give us an opportunity to have something in place to say that based on the licensing and based on the requirements to obtain that license, we have determined that these folks have already met certain minimum standards that you would need in order to do this in the City.
So the bad guys will eventually get weeded out, as far as you see it, through this process of the homeowners telling you.
Eventually. And I just want to point out to you also, whether we enforce this locally, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania --
Point of order. Maybe this sound system has been upgraded recently or maybe I don't sit this close to the speaker, but your voice loud that I cannot hear you.
If you could just turn the volume a little bit on that mike or something.
Also, I would like to 24 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 finish my train of thought. As I was getting ready to point out, there was a state law that was passed in 2000, it was enacted December of 2000, Act 5 114, that also addressed home inspections. It 6 addressed home inspections in a way that it set 7 certain criteria as to who could do home 8 inspections, who could not home inspections. The 9 definitions under that state Act were somewhat 10 specific as to the qualifications that you would 11 have to meet in order to be a home inspector. I 12 don't have the Act specifically in front of me right 13 now, but I do believe that there was something 14 mentioned in Act about precisely the qualifications 15 you would have to meet beyond just being an 16 architect or engineer in order to be a home 17 inspector. There were specific qualifications under 18 the Commonwealth Act that was signed into law that 19 said that you had meet in order to be a home 20 inspector other than an architect or engineer.
There was specific language within the state Act, Act 114, that distinguished what a home inspector was and the 25 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 qualifications that they had to specifically meet certain things, certain certification that they would have to have in order to be one, and it didn't address the architect or engineer under that provision, I don't believe. But I will --
Point of clarification. The only reason I'm really -- Gray is one of the persons in this City who always comes down on right issues. Are architects certified to do home inspections statewide, by the state?
If I'm not mistaken, the state law that Mr. Haigler was referring to exempts architects and engineers from the -- or it automatically accepts licensed Pennsylvania architects and engineers in the home inspection category. It does not require them to do anything in addition to or in excess.
I'm being told that architects then have to get some certification, special certification to do home inspection.
No, not at all. And certainly not in the state architects law which governs the practice of architecture.
We need to get a 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 clarification on it. Because if it is a redundancy here, then I agree with you. But if the state law then requires another special certification of architects for home inspections, then the ordinance 6 would make some sense. But otherwise, it would not.
I will defer to Mr. Miln (ph) from the home inspection industry. I think he should come up and address this because he's familiar with the Act as well.
This is like whose baseball it is. Architects and home inspectors, we love you all, but let's try to work it out here. So I need somebody unbiased. Is there somebody from the City Solicitor to give this opinion? If not, we're going to table this and do some more work on it. I like you all and I don't quite know who's telling the truth.
The thing has been sitting in the code for a long period -- how were you dealing with this before? Because under this provision as it's presently in the code, if I'm reading this correctly, professional architects or 27 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 engineers valid licensed practice under the laws of Commonwealth and inspectors of governmental agencies who perform inspections on behalf of their agencies are exempt from the provisions of the chapter. That's been in the Philadelphia Code for however long period of time. What does that mean?
That's been in the code. The provisions of the ordinance, this ordinance was an amendment to an ordinance that's been enacted roughly, I believe, since 1993. It has been enacted since 1993. Under previous administrations and periodically the Department does an analysis and research on various laws that we are enforcing to make sure that we are doing what we're supposed to do. Previous Administrations, I'm not going to speak on what their rationale was, but there was some not enforcement of that particular provision at that time. This goes back 10 years under our previous Administration. The Department has now undertaken the direction of City Council to research licenses to see where we can streamline license repealed, and this is one that came up that we looked at.
Mr. Chairman, I'm 28 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 going to ask -- I think this is actually a follow-up to something you threw out. Mr. Chairman I know we're going to hear from other people. I don't necessarily know if we're going to be able to solve this today because we've got three different opinions on one question. What I am going to ask is if the Chair would request a legal opinion on the issues at hand, whether it's Act 114, the provisions of this bill or any other Act of the Commonwealth related to architects, engineers, and home inspectors to give us clarification as to who is responsible for what, who can do what, who's allowed to do what based on their various license and procedures.
And if we're going to move the bill, I'm certainly fine with that, but I'd like to have that opinion prior to any action taken on the bill. If we have to make any amendments, we can do them on the floor.
Thank you. What we're going to do is we have a guarantee from the sponsor that if we vote this out, he'll wait until 29 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 we get that opinion. And then if something happens or until it's straightened out between all the parties, it won't move. We have the sponsor's guarantee. And it has to get past us anyhow, so you have our --
I've never heard of a complaint that a home inspector who was an architect or engineer ever did anything fraudulent. But what this bill seems to be aiming at is to make sure that the people who are inspecting it know what they're doing. And so I think Gray Smith is absolutely right. Did anybody intend to exclude or include, or is this just an accidental problem we have?
I was going to ask, Mr. Chairman, perhaps we could find out eventually what the reason for eliminating that eight-year-old provision came about other than perhaps to get an additional $300 every year from us or every couple of years. I can't see any reason for it, and they have a reason so perhaps they'll be able to tell us once we go back and have these deliberations.
Well, let's get the 30 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - 020809 City Solicitor's opinion. Let's just hold it. I'm requesting to hold this thing until we come back. And we'll have an opinion next time we have the bill. It shouldn't be this hard. That's the end of the public hearing. - - - 31 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC MEETING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - - - Public Meeting conducted by the Committee on Licenses and Inspections, held in Room 9 696, City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the above date, to consider action on the following: BILL 020732. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO, Chairman COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN MICHAEL NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ - - - 32 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING
This is the public meeting of Committee on Licenses and Inceptions. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Krajewski for the offering of an amendment to 020732.
Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 020732 be amended. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded. How does everyone vote? Aye? (Aye.)
The ayes have it. So it's amended. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Krajewski for a motion on Bill 020732, as amended.
Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 020732 be reported out of this committee, as amended, with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
The motion's been 33 1/29/03 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING made and seconded. All those in favor? (Aye.)
Seeing none, that is ends the public meeting. Thank you very much. (Council adjourned at 2:48 p.m.) - - - 34 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of January 29, 2003, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. RE: COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS ___________________________ Lisa C. Bradley, RPR and Notary Public