COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE THE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON LICENSES & INSPECTIONS - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, November 10, 1998 9:12 a.m. - - - Bill No. 980334 - Amending Title of The 9 Philadelphia Code entitled, "Regulation of Businesses, Trades and Professions" by requiring all building and construction contractors to obtain a license. . . Bill No. 980645 - Amending 9-205 of Philadelphia Code relating to sidewalk sales, by adding new provisions prohibiting sidewalk sales in the 6th Councilmatic District. Bill No. 980655 - Amending Section 9-205 of The Philadelphia Code, relating to sidewalk sales, by adding a new provision prohibiting sidewalk sales in the 52nd Ward. . . Bill No. 980721 - Amending Chapter 9-200 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Commercial Activities on Streets," by deleting Subsection 9-206(10)(b), which created a sidewalk vending neighborhood business district entitled "The Broad and Snyder Business District". . . PRESENT: COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY, Chair COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE I N D E X Bill No. 980645 John P. Campbell. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager Department of Licenses and Inspections. Ms. Gilbert, Grocery Store Owner . . . . . . 5 Bill No. 980655 John P. Campbell. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager Department of Licenses and Inspections. Viviene Hansbury, President . . . . . . . . 8 Wynnefield Neighbors Association Bill No. 980721 John P. Campbell. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager Department of Licenses and Inspections. Tony Morrison, Private Citizen. . . . . . . 17 Bill No. 980334 Commissioner Frances Egan . . . . . . . . . 29 Department of Licenses and Inspections John P. Campbell. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32 Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager Department of Licenses and Inspections Marta Brooks, Esquire . . . . . . . . . . . 48 Coordinator, Judicare Senior Citizens Project 3 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980645 P R O C E E D I N G S
Good morning. The Council Committee on License and Inspections is now in session to conduct a public hearing on four pieces of legislation; additionally, to conduct a public meeting at the end of this hearing. The first bill we will deal with today is Bill No. 980645, which is an ordinance amending Section 9-205 of The Philadelphia Code, relating to sidewalk sales, by adding new provisions prohibiting sidewalk sales in the 6th Councilmatic District. (John Campbell, L&I, comes forward.)
Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Good morning, Councilman Kenney, members of the L&I Committee. I'm John P. Campbell, Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. And I'm here today to testify in support of Bill No. 980645, which will prevent all 4 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980645 vending and sidewalk sales in the 6th Councilmatic District. And vending legislation has evolved over the last two, three, four years, establishing more prohibitions as vending has become more problematic. After we established the Center City vending District, the vendors moved out into the neighborhoods and there have been constant problems in some of the districts, like in Councilman O'Neill's district. So in the far northeast basically it's all vending, and now we have Councilwoman Krajewski's district. The vending problems affect business, they affect taxes,, and in some cases, like with the pretzel vendors along the Boulevard, there are grave health problems, so we do support the introduction of this legislation, absent any questions.
Thank you very much. Are there any questions from members of the committee? (No questions.)
Seeing none -- you can stay here Mr. Campbell since we'll need you 5 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980645 for the other two. Miss Gilbert, please. (Ms. Gilbert comes forward.)
Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
My name is (unintelligible) Gilbert, and I have five supermarkets in Philadelphia, and I am completely familiar with the problems that surround us with these vendors, such as the one that we have right now in Mayfair who pitches a tent on the corner and puts a beach chair out and sells wares, taking business away from the people in the shopping center. Not only does this create traffic hazards, but while we pay heavy rent and certainly a lot of taxes to the City, these vendors do not. So I feel that this bill is definitely needed to protect us from what I call these "piranhic" people.
How many employees 6 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980645 do you have?
Very good. Just generally, where are your businesses located?
We have a store on Welsh Road, one on Castor Avenue, we have one on Pratt, one in Mayfair, and one in southwest Philadelphia.
And I don't want to hold you to this because maybe you didn't come here prepared to answer specific questions, but could you give us an estimate as to what you pay in City taxes per year, real estate and business privilege taxes?
In real estate, I really wouldn't know. But in business privilege taxes, it's $110,000 a year.
Is there anyone else here to testify on this bill? (No response.) 7 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980655
Hearing none, we will now move to Bill No. 980655, which is an ordinance amending Section 9-205 of The Philadelphia Code, relating to sidewalk sales, by adding a new provision prohibiting sidewalk sales in the 52nd Ward, which encompasses the area bordered by within the Schuylkill River and Girard Avenue, west on Girard Avenue to Parkside Avenue, northwest on Parkside Avenue to Belmont Avenue, south on Belmont Avenue to Girard Avenue, west on Girard Avenue to Lancaster Avenue, northwest on Lancaster Avenue to 59th Street, north on 59th Street to Upland Way, west and then northwest on Upland Way to Overbrook Avenue, north on Overbrook Avenue to City Avenue, northeast on City Avenue to the Schuylkill River, and south along the Schuylkill River to Girard Avenue. Mr. Campbell, please identify yourself for the record.
Again, John P. Campbell, Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. And, again, the Department supports the adoption of this legislation. As I pointed out in 8 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980655 my testimony, the issue of vending in neighborhoods has been problematic. Then another trend started where we prohibited areas street by street, block by block, and then we started with certain boundaries within an area abutted by. . . And now as we get further into, I guess, the management of vending, it has gone into larger and larger areas than are being removed from vending. Again, this is the 52nd Ward. This is Wynnefield by St. Joe's University. And again, we support this legislation.
Miss Hansbury, please. (Viviene Hansbury comes for ordinance.)
I'm Viviene Hansbury, and I'm with the Wynnefield Residents Association.
The Wynnefield Residents Association supports the sidewalk sale bill, No. 25 980655 for the following reasons. 9 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980655 Number one, sidewalk sales will generate an influx of people in our community, which will interfere with the quality of life for our residents. Number two, sidewalk sales will decrease the beautification of our environment by the disposal of rubbish and trash on our sidewalks and streets. Number 3, sidewalk sales will increase the problems that we are currently attempting to solve. We are encouraging City Council to pass Bill No. 980655 and make it a reality because it will demonstrate that City Council is concerned about the beauty of the sidewalks.
Thank you very much for your testimony, ma'am. Are there any questions? Councilmember Nutter.
Not so much a question. I just want to thank Miss Hansbury for her presence here today and her presidency of the Wynnefield Residents Association and for expressing her opinion of what's behind this 10 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980655 bill. We know that there are some troubled locations and that we're trying to anticipate some others. So we appreciate your support. Also, Mr. Chairman, there were discussions with Lucinda Hudson, who is the President of the Parkside Association of Philadelphia. Their area is also covered by the provisions of this bill. So we look forward to getting this out of committee and having Wynnefield return to a quieter neighborhood. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Thank you, ma'am. Is there anyone else here to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, we will move to Bill No. 980721, which is an ordinance amending Chapter 9-200 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Commercial Activities on Streets," by deleting Subsection 9-206(10)(b), which created a sidewalk vending neighborhood 11 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 business district entitled "The Broad and Snyder Business District," by amending Section 9-205 to permit sidewalk sales on Broad and Shunk Streets.
Again, I'm John P. Campbell, Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Again, we do support the adoption of this bill. And I might add that Councilwoman Verna will be introducing legislation, I believe, this Thursday to permit two other vendors in that area. But why this zoning was introduced or being adopted, is that the Councilman and Licenses & Inspections and, I guess, the Parking Authority, the three of them, tried to work and come up with a rational scheme for vending in the Broad and Snyder area. And it's just coming in that there's no cooperation whatsoever, to the point that, you know, we had some problems internally, but just that there is no attempt on the part of the vendors to cooperate. And the Councilman had requested that we, through the Law Department, draft this legislation to just do away with any vending at 12 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 Broad and Snyder, and I think that maybe it was Councilman DiCicco --
Yeah, I think it would be appropriate if Councilman DiCicco would add for the record the history of this situation.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks, Mr. Campbell. Do you recall -- I think it's about a year approximately that myself and Patty (unintelligible) whose on my staff began working with vendors to do what we could to create some order on Broad Street. You mentioned about L&I and the Department of -- I think it was the Parking Authority and -- I forget, there may have been another department, but we worked for about a year with the vendors. And the vendors, were they not properly notified and notified well in advance of the October 5th date, which was the date that the legislation that we're looking at today was going to be in place?
Yes, they were Councilman. We had our people, including our supervisor, go through the whole area to talk to 13 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 all of the vendors, the vendors at Broad and Snyder, and told them when -- actually, we had handouts that I gave out as far as, you know, when we would start enforcing it and when they would be expected to comply. Going back to what you say, though, we've been meeting, I guess, for over a year. I seem to remember a meeting at St. Agnes Hospital in the community room with your staff, the Parking Authority, and the business area group from Broad and Snyder to create this and to make something that would be complementary.
And the notification stated the change beginning some time in late July, early August of this year?
And do you recall when the original survey was taken so that we could find out -- we could determine the number of vendors that we thought were appropriate there based on what the code would allow, and I think it's 30 feet between each vendor. And do you recall if the number of 14 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 vendor at the time we identified as being located in that one-block area was somewhere between 4 and 24 vendor? 5
I believe it might have 6 even been a little lower than that at the time, 7 something like the number 17 or 18 is in my mind. 8
Okay. Well, it's 9 a couple either way, but the point is that the 10 number of vendors that were vending at that 11 location far exceeded what the City code allowed 12 to be in there. 13
So it was during 15 our discussion and our investigation, in trying, 16 again, to restore some order to that intersection, 17 we determined that the number of -- I think it was 18 nine vendor would be the maximum number allowed 19 under the City code, which was 30 feet between each vendor.
And do you also recall that upon further investigation, two vendors come to mind -- and in particular one 15 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 vendor, we found out during the week of October 5th had not paid taxes or had not been licensed for approximately ten years?
And then another vendor had not paid his taxes for approximately five years, the newsstand guy.
So there clearly were people who were vending at that location who were not in compliance with the City code and had not been paying their taxes or licenses for a considerable amount of time.
Do you also recall, on the day of October 7th of this year, getting a call from my self or from your superior, I think it may have been Commissioner McLaughlin, as to me standing out on Broad Street and calling the Department of L&I, wondering when the October 5th plan was going to take place?
Councilman, that call 16 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 was made from you to me, and I then I went in and talked to Commissioner McLaughlin about the enforcement and the activity out there at Broad and Snyder.
Okay, so I'm not going to belabor the record anymore. I mean, the point I'm trying to make is that all of us, my staff, your department, the Parking Authority, the Streets Department was there, they had the Streets Unit in, for well over a year, tried to accommodate the vendors and permit some vending to go on at that location. We even brought in Foundation of Architecture, if you recall, to see if we could come up with a design that would make the carts more aesthetic, acceptable and more pleasing to the eye on that block.
That is correct, Councilman. And when you look at the joint efforts between yourself, your staff, the various City agencies, and even the Foundation for Architecture, what we, naturally, believed we could have here was some order, and we did not 17 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 anticipate the constant fight with no compliance.
So in your mind, would it be fair to say that the City and all the agencies and all the departments working with the two representatives of the other vendors tried to accommodate some sort of vending operation at that location? And that, basically, for the most part, we were totally ignored as to October 5th.
Thank you. Are there any other questions for Mr. Campbell? (No further questions.)
We thank you. Mr. Morrison, please. (Tony Morrison comes forward.)
My name is Tony Morrison. 18 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721
I got a bad touch of laryngitis. I was listening to this gentleman over here speaking. And thank you for permitting me to do so.
And ask him, When is the last time he's been down there? And, by the way, I have called up the 4th District a lot of times. This was created by the City and not by the people. Down there, there's a minority -- you say nine people. If you been down there, you got to know that the minority is the majority that's down there as far as the vendors. Now, what happened was I used to call 'em up, I used to tell the meter maid, I told the police that these people was in violation of a City ordinance, two-hour parking. They didn't do 19 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 a thing about it, not one thing. No cooperation. Then these people over here right now go down there, I'll show you how lax the police are. There's a stolen car that's been there over two weeks that's in from Virginia, a nice-looking car. And when I tell the police about it, who looks? They know it's stolen 'cause the ignition switch, the steering column is jammed. Now, these people, and I see it myself 'cause you know I'm familiar with it, these people that are right but they're doing the wrong thing because the law permitted them people to leave their vans all day there. People that came in getting their prescriptions down at Rite Aid had to double-park, and they're getting tickets when they shouldn't be getting tickets 'cause them vans shouldn't have been there in the first place. So, again, in defense of the vendors, they're an asset to the community. Every one of them cleans up the sidewalk. If there's any dirt there, it's the people over there that created it, not the vendors. The vendors are very clean. Now, you're talking about them two people in question. I know them people you're 20 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 talking about. You're right, but how did they get this far, five years that they didn't pay it. Where's the City's job? Why are they permitted to be there? But you got decent people that you push 'em off, and what do you push 'em off into, welfare? And that's -- you know this is exactly what I'm talking about. South Philly, Broad and Snyder, is the hub of South Philly. That's probably the most-traveled section. No other section is South Philly is more traveled than Broad and Snyder. People come from all over. And then when the holidays come up, Mother's Day, Easter, I seen L&I inspectors that you couldn't even cross the street because they were lined up, jammed up with one another over there. Who permitted that? I seen L&I inspectors, they didn't move nobody. Now, right now, I defy you to go down there. You got the nine people. Go down there and you'll see how nice it is. In fact, I asked the L&I man and Ron from the Register of Wills that was down there last week, Are you satisfied the way it is? And he said, Yes, I'm satisfied. 21 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 Well, why didn't you do it when I asked you for I don't know how long, to get the van, move it in the middle of the street. You guys don't need more than one hour. One hour to unload, that's beautiful. Unload, get out, move your vans. But nobody did nothing. L&I didn't do nothing, the meter maids didn't do nothing, the police didn't do nothing. This has been going on for years. And where was the City's cooperation then? These are decent people, these are people trying to make a living. They're an asset to the community. People come from all over. I seen 'em go down there and look at things on the stand. And there's nothing wrong with that. Go over there now and tell me that you got the nine people there. That's what should have been done there, have 'em every 30 feet. But that wasn't enforced by L&I. Ask me if they're a hazard to the neighborhood or to that block. I'm the one that got out the trash baskets and picked up the trash. I called the City and I said, Put out 22 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 trash baskets 'cause people are littering. I went to every businessman.
McDonald's got their own trash cans there, Dunkin' Donuts got their own trash cans, and you know what they're doing there? It's good they're not in competition. Ain't nobody out there in competition with Rite Aid. Foot Locker just opened up and I'm glad. I try to help everybody that opens up a spot. I will help you. If you need anything, I will help you. I want to see that whole block come alive. I see closed-down buildings over there. The City don't do it, I got the trash bags, I'm the one that asked the community to cooperate. Now, there's something wrong here and you know it.
Ronnie lives up the street. 23 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721
I know. And I just want to let you know that Ronnie has been fully supportive of this measure. In fact, Mr. Donatucci --
I said Mr. Donatucci fully supports this amendment. He's actually in support of the first bill which we tried to do to establish some regulations, but when he saw it was being ignored, he said to me, "I live block away. When are you going to something to clean out Broad and Snyder?" So he supports the amendment that will abolish vending at Broad and Snyder. And the end result is, Councilwoman Verna, by the way --
Yeah, well, I haven't seen Miss Verna around. And as to Ronnie, I talked to him the last three years, getting the paper at the newspaper stand. I said, "Ron, what do you think of this situation?" He said, "Tony, if it stays like this," he says, "I see nothing wrong with it." 24 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 Now, if you want a face-to-face confrontation with me and Ronnie and see who's lying, I'll gladly do it.
In fact, he goes like this. He mentioned your name, he says, Frank'S like this on this (gesturing).
And you know what I mean by this (gesturing), we're Italians. (Laughter.)
Well, since the stenographer can't take down what the hand motion is, it means "menza-menza."
That's right, that's right. Let me tell you something, Frank, I'm going to walk out of here, I'm not going to win this one, but I'll tell you what I am going to do. I don't care what yooz do with it. I got to look at myself in the mirror so I'm gonna get you every petition, I promise you. And you know how I operate, Frank. 25 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721
Thank you. For the record, Councilman, there was a survey, I believe, done of the original group of vendors that were there. And do you remember the numbers on their place of residency?
I don't have the exact number, but a significant amount of them don't live in the City of Philadelphia.
Many of them live in New Jersey and the suburbs. And one thing I would --
Let me finish. One thing I will contend is that in Jersey and in the 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 suburbs where they live, there are no vendors on their corners.
Mr. Chairman, you just said it yourself. Every one of them's paid up on their taxes. We're concerned about, as far as paying their taxes to the City of Philadelphia, if they live in China, what's the difference as long as they operate within the scopes of once here in the City of Philadelphia? They pay their business taxes. You get kicked out if you don't, and you're rotten for doing that. But you can't paint everybody with the same brush.
Mr. Chairman, for the record, two of the vendors that are presently engaged in business on Broad Street are relatives of mine, and they are getting no special consideration. As a matter of fact, one of the vendors, Andrew Mortalini (ph.) was the first vendor. He's been vending there since 1976. There was no other vendors but my cousin Andrew. And he even told me as recently as about a week ago, You are right, these people just don't want 27 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 to obey the law. And, ironically, one of the vendors said, This will go away after the November election.
It's not going away, and, Mr. Morrison, I'm not going to argue.
Well, I'm not going to argue with you but I just talked to Andrew this morning. What he's talking about, Councilman, is there's other people. I see them on Saturdays and Sundays, during the week day. If they could get away with it, they'd jam themselves with -- some have licenses, some don't. They don't violate the 30-foot thing. So don't blame nine other people for what outsiders is doing. This is not their job. Where's Licenses and Inspections? That's their job. I've seen you come across the street. You're right. But where was the obligation and responsibility of the L&I people over there not coming there and getting it. Go over there now 28 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980721 and then tell me if you're still ready to move 'em. Now it's uniform, now it's every 30 feet, not feet. I seen 'em up against one 6 another. But it's not -- the Licenses and 7 Inspections people will tell you that. It hasn't 8 been like that since they been down there the last 9 few weeks. Everything's the way it should have 10 been in the first place, if the City could have done their job.
I keep telling the lieutenant, I keep telling the police officers in the 4th District we have a stolen car? Where the meter maids at? They won't tow it. They're depriving the City of Philadelphia of that charge for parking. Why don't they move it? All right.
Thank you very much. Is there anyone else here to testify on this bill? (No response.) 29 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334
Thank you. We will now move to Bill No. 980334, which is an ordinance amending Title of The 5 Philadelphia Code entitled, "Regulation of 6 Businesses, Trades and Professions," by requiring 7 all building and construction contractors to 8 obtain a license, by requiring and prohibiting 9 certain conduct by such contractors, and by providing for penalties, all under certain terms and conditions. (Fran Egan, L&I comes forward.)
Good morning. Please identify yourself again for the record.
Frances Egan, Commissioner of the Department of Licenses and Inspections.
I want to thank the Chair and the Councilmembers who support this legislation, and I am here to provide favorable testimony in support of the adoption of Bill 24 980334. This bill, when enacted, will require 30 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 licensure of all building and construction contractors in Philadelphia. The proposed legislation has been created to fill a void that exists in the regulatory scene of our construction and occupancy codes. The Department, through its codes regulate all phases of construction activity but, other than a few types of specialty contractors, there is no regulation of the general contractor. The person who is responsible to perform the work. We believe that this lack of regulation is a flaw that compromises the integrity of our codes. Currently, there is nothing which permits this agency from banning the incompetent or corrupt contractor or even stopping that person from securing permits. With the enactment of this legislation, that loophole will be closed, and we will be able to stop the incompetent contractor from working. The ordinance further encourages contractors to complete every project that they undertake in a good and workmanlike manner and according to plans and specifications they submit. To do otherwise will result in their 31 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 inability to compete in this highly competitive market. The proposed legislation also contains provisions that are consumer-friendly. All too often, we hear tales of people, especially our senior citizens, and businesses who are "taken" by contractors. Other situations arise where the contractor performed so poorly that the cost to repair the contractor's mistakes costs as much as the original project. Unfortunately, there aren't any insurance requirements that give home owners and individuals redress against the bad and unscrupulous contractor. This bill requires contractors to maintain either products and complete operations and/or errors and omissions insurance as well as liability insurance. Thus, victims of incompetent or incomplete work have the opportunity to be recompensed as well as relief from the stress created by the situation. And, ultimately, the incompetent contractor will be driven from the marketplace because of their inability to secure insurance. 32 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 To protect all from the unscrupulous or corrupt contractor, this ordinance in an amendment today will prohibit any contractor convicted of a crime of fraud or dishonesty in connection with the activity within the last five years from being licensed. In conclusion, we ask this committee to approve the ordinance with a favorable recommendation.
Good morning, Councilman and members of the committee. Again, John Campbell, Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. We do have two amendments on the bill. There is an error under Subsection (f). And the statute of limitations for filing fraud is four years. We're only requiring contractors to maintain records of three years so I would like to amend that to four so that on line 2 under (f), the second line, the word "three" should be deleted and the word "four" added in its place. And also on line 4 of that same 33 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 subsection, again, the word "three" should be deleted and the word "four" should be inserted in its place. The second amendment that we are proposing -- and I've submitted copies of this amendment to the Chair -- is on . And we have created a new section of (.8). And that language now reads: "Conviction a crime of fraud or dishonesty in connection with the licensed activity." And then below that, there is a new Subsection (c.), which reads: "License revocation (.8) above shall be for a period of five years." And so as far as amendments, we have two. As the Commissioner has pointed out, there are two issues that we attacking with this bill. We are actually bringing a whole group of contractors under regulation and in our codes that do everything. And then the second thing is that there are contractors -- that there are people who purport to be contractors -- just a small minority, I know, because the vast majority of 34 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 contractors are good, competent, well-qualified people, but you do have a few out there who are out to scam people, particularly our senior citizens.
Thank you very much. The one question that I have relative to this ordinance as it relates to many of the other ordinances that we pass here is the issue of enforcement. In the summer, just for example, and I keep using them as the example of a paradigm community, but if an unlicensed roofer or an unlicensed electrician shows up at a property in Springfield or Delaware County or Aston, shortly after that, there will be a police car arriving to check the individual's license, his permit. And if not, if they're not available or he doesn't have them, they often confiscate the truck, the tools, and arrest the person. Now, I'm in support of the passage of this bill, but how can we ensure that through enforcement measures, these guys are going to be investigated and approached while they're on the 35 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 job site and not four months after the consumer realizes that this was a fly-by-night operation and has a roof leaking?
Well, the first thing is, if they would apply for their permit, they wouldn't able to even apply without the license. But we do have, you know, a large contingent of building inspectors on the streets of Philadelphia every day that are stopping at construction work sites. And now they'll be able to ask that question, Are you a licensed contractor? And to show proof of it. And if they're not, they'll be able to stop those jobs.
Has there been some effort to -- I don't know, not to burden the police with more than they already have to deal with, but is there any way of kind of coordinating with our police department so that they can be involved in this kind of --
Well, I agree, you know, with the statement that you made in regards to that. And we are working with the police department right now on better enforcement of, for example, unlicensed tow truck operators, 36 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 unlicensed roofing contractors, and unlicensed plumbers. And we're getting there but, you know, it has been a long struggle, and we have the Law Department to seek better enforcement authority which relates to impounding or confiscation of the materials they need to do their job. But we don't have that in the law yet here in Philadelphia.
The ability to impound. COMMISSIONER EGAN: That's right.
And would that require approval from the state for us to do that, or can we do that?
Why don't we? COMMISSIONER EGAN: Well, there's been efforts in the past that have failed. And because it's "confiscation," there was a problem with that terminology. So we've been working with the Law Department on calling it "impoundment," you know, where just like if you didn't pay your ticket and 37 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 you got booted, you'd be impounded until such time as got properly licensed or are legal. And we would like very much to be able to do that with contractors.
I mean, the real penalty for these guys is the loss of their tools and equipment.
And if you have a fly-by-night operator who's willing to go on the fly, not getting permits, not getting licensed, not paying taxes, he or she is engaging in activity now. If we don't have the authority or power to take away their ability to do job by taking away their tools, how do we --
All we can do is stop the job, which then just means that they pack up and go start another job somewhere else in the City. And if don't get caught, they don't get caught.
I believe, and I think you might agree, that the threat of losing your van, your tools and your materials would keep people from coming here in the first place. I think the risk is worth it for them now since they 38 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 know that the real penalty is not going to be the loss of their equipment.
And once we have that kind of authority, we could set up a hotline where people could call in when they suspect that kind of illegal work going on. We could advertise in the newspapers and tell our citizens what they should be asking for when they contract with somebody to do any of that type of work.
Only, Councilman, that we are working with the Solicitor's Office. Very shortly, the first of the bills, the only one dealing with impoundment will be coming though shortly, and that's -- we're actually using the tow trucks as our model for that. We're in the process of completing that legislation now, including a component that will deal with the impoundment issue that you and I tried several year ago.
How would you characterize the cooperation of the Law Department? 39 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334
Really excellent. We work with Rick Auerbach, Rich Feder, Bill 6 Thompson, and they've really been -- especially Bill Thompson -- has really been supportive in our efforts on this as opposed to it. And I've been dealing with this issue, I guess, for almost 30 years now.
That you've been dealing with it for 30 years and still not have been able to do anything with it.
Councilman, in the past, the was door slammed, there was no discussions, nobody would do anything, and that was it. I mean, this is the first time since I've been here -- I mean, we've gone further than ever.
How do you keep -- 40 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 how does the Department keep track of complaints on a contractor?
Well, at this time, it's almost impossible because there is no "Licensed Contractor File," so to speak, that we can then accumulate complaints or questions or concerns raised about individual contractors. This bill 9 will now give us the opportunity to do that.
So if you get a contractor who gets a license and goes out and does the work, I'm not satisfied, I call you and complain, what happens?
Oh, with this bill. Well, the complaint would be registered with the Department. We would, therefore, then start to create a file. We would explain to the constituent or citizen that complained what their redress is in terms of insurance. And then, over a period of time, a not very long period of time, we would set some kind of limit in our regulation for like, say, whatever 41 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 we would decide it would be, like if the limit is three complaints, then we hold an administrative hearing where all of those complaint would be reviewed and we would determine whether or not a suspension is in order or a revocation of the license is in order.
Councilwoman, again, in some cases, we would be going for the total number complaints against people, either because they're scam artists or because they're just so incompetent that could hurt somebody from working in the City. The whole issue that we have -- and I think you and I have worked on one particular situation, or at least I've been peripherally involved with one particular person who doesn't complete jobs. And this bill would be geared to drive him out of business because one of the conditions for licensure is completed operations insurance. And that particular contractor that I dealt with did not have that type of insurance to be licensed. And, of course, if he's not licensed, he can't hold harmless, he can't work. And it 42 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 make the situation a lot cleaner, much easier if this legislation were in place. I'd like to add one thing. We in the Department have been working on some form of licensure for several years, something that I think Councilman Kenney talked about, enforcement, something that would be effective and enforceable. And that's why we've come up with this bill and that's why we have it before you today.
Let me ask you a question. Are developers who build large housing tracts, do they have to get licenses or just permits?
Right. And even the larger firms, in other words, would be required to be licensed under this bill.
Okay. Now, you mentioned a particular problem we have with this developer or contractor, contractor-developer. 43 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 One of the complaints of this individual was the noncompletion of work. The other one was failure to file the necessary paperwork for the homeowners insurance. Would that be a part of this situation here? We could go back for him?
We can't get -- we can only limit it to what week the City can enact this legislation. I think when you start getting into contractual arrangements and contractual agreements, that's what the Uniform Commercial Code does. That's a Pennsylvania law governing contracts. And, you know, that again, over and above anything the City can enforce, that we would either be court action possibly or fraud investigation by the District Attorney's Office, the State Attorney General.
One more question. You talked about in this legislation that the contractor has to have insurance. If someone complained to you and they wanted to take recourse against the contractor, would that involve the insurance company? COMMISSIONER EGAN: That would be public record. 44 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have one other question. In terms of the Department's ability to ascertain whether someone has a license or not, I'm looking at number 5, "Required Conduct," on , and I notice that letter c. talks about how all advertisements and contractor stationery shall include the contractor's license number. Was any thought given to any requirement that there be a posting of some kind of either sticker or an actual printing of the license number on any vehicles that the person uses to conduct their work? So as when the L&I inspectors are driving down the street, they would be able to distinguish between licensed contractors and unlicensed contractors, because the unlicensed contractor would not have either a sticker on the vehicle or, similar to maybe --. For instance, all of our vehicles have numbers on them, City of Philadelphia, it's 45 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 vehicle number, you know, 96, whatever. And that's the way we identify our vehicles in addition to the plates. Was there ever any discussion about some record or indication of the contractors' vehicles so that your people would be able to know or would be able to question it. If came upon a vehicle that didn't have the sticker or whatever's authorized by the Department, you would immediately be able to go to that location and talk to that person.
Well, we do do that right now with tow trucks. And we just recently started that same type of sticker identification with roofing contractors, and so there's no reason why we wouldn't be able to implement the same type of clear identification for our citizens to determine licensed general contractors.
You know, I guess a sticker similar to your inspection sticker that goes on your window currently to show that --
The key is, you know, getting our citizens of Philadelphia aware that that's what they should be looking for. So any 46 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 means of communicating that with your constituents, we would appreciate for your newsletters or whatever. Look for the sticker, ask for license number so you know you have a legal --
And the police department has that same program. Again, it clearly identifies police vehicles on their back windows.
Councilman, just one comment 'cause we discussed this once before with some other licensing bills dealing with contractors. The sad situation is that sometimes that identification marks that particular vehicle for theft during the course of the evening because most licensed contractors who live in the City park their truck on their street, and the sticker is too identifiable, it's an invitation to break into the truck to see if there's anything worth stealing -- usually tools. But that was one issue that the contractors raised once before so just -- maybe 47 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 there's a way to do it without --
We work with each entity that's -- you know, in other words, work with the tow-truck operator, work with the roofing contractor. We would work with the general contractor.
I'm making some general assumption that most of these vehicles are, you know, your kind classic white truck where the person already has, you know, "Joe Schmoe's Contracting Company" on the side of the vehicle.
One of the suggestions that they made was to take a magnetic sticker and put it on the side of the truck and then take it off at night. So that, again, is a way to deal with it.
Commissioner Eagan, has there been any thought of working with the Better Business Bureau for L&I to accumulate a list of problematic contractors? 'Cause they're the obvious organization in this region that 48 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 identifies them, the contractors that have been doing bad things. So I'm just wondering if there should be a dialogue between the Better Business Bureau and L&I to ascertain that there are certain contractors out there that are breaking the law.
Definitely. And I appreciate that suggestion. I think that's a good suggestion, and I'll instruct, you know, our managers to do that, to make that a part of what they, you know, regularly communicate with to find out maybe things that we don't even know about and keep a note on it. I think that's a great idea.
Thank you very much. We just have one more witness on this bill, and I think it's very important that we hear from them. The Chair now calls Marta Brooks, who is the Coordinator for the Senior Citizens Judicare Project. (Marta Brooks comes forward.) 49 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334
Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record.
Marta Brooks. I'm a staff attorney for the Senior Citizens Judicare Project.
And I'm going to ask you, because of the time, to please summarize your testimony as opposed to reading.
Very briefly, what Judicare does is we represent people 60 and older who are residents of Philadelphia. We represent approximately 2,000 seniors per year. Our typical client is a woman, African-American, in her 70's, she's living on fixed income of Social Security, between $600 and $700, and her only asset, generally is her home, which she is trying -- or struggling, really, to try to keep in good repair. What we have seen all too often in our office, in our six to ten cases a month, are unscrupulous contractors who victimize these elderly clients of ours. What happens is they take our client's payment in cash, which can be and usually is all of their savings; and they 50 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 either do absolutely no work or just do work that is very poorly done. And our clients are left without their money and without their homes in good repair. We've also noticed that this isn't just an issue of the impact on seniors, because when your house becomes a senior's home, it becomes less habitable less and safe less, and it becomes less desirable to their children, and often these houses become vacant or abandoned, and so it's really affecting our neighborhoods. We are in favor of this legislation. A few things I just wanted to point out are, we're very concerned about unlicensed contractors and how to enforce a provision that would get to unlicensed contractors. Often someone of these contractors have no insurance, there's no valid business address. And when we're facing a case like that, we cannot sue, we cannot go after that contractor. We also would support some kind of a monetary bond requirement. It doesn't have to be that large. It would be a company that could create fund so that when there are contractors who 51 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 don't have insurance, that fall through the cracks, there is some way for the people to be insured that they will have the money returned to them. Another point I just quickly wanted to make is that for most of our seniors, contracts worth less than $1,000 (unintelligible). This legislation deals with contracts of $1,000 or more. We would suggest that it deal with contracts of $500 or more, because for a lot of our clients, $600 is all that they have in the bank. And that's just the way it is. Also a few things that we feel would be good to clarify in the bill are things like not allowing P.O. boxes or route numbers to be acceptable to L&I. Some contractors do somehow get P.O. boxes listed, registered, and that leaves the client no recourse against that contractor. Also, just setting forth how many times somebody can violate legislation for their suspension or revocation. I think that should be clarified so that it's not discretionary, but let's say, for example, they violated the legislation three times, then they, you know, they 52 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 would need to appear at a hearing where suspension or revocation is a possibility. And, basically, we encourage L&I, which it sounds like they're already doing, to make sure that the legislation is not only going to be thorough, but effective. We know that there has been a prior bill on the books, but certain things like bond requirement was never implemented. And so encourage this legislation, but we also request that it become effective.
Thank you. Mr. Campbell indicated to me through visual that he would be interested in one of the amendments reducing the $1,000 to 500.
That is correct, Councilman. On the bottom of , the very last line, it reads: "Contractors paying for them," I would delete the words "$1,000" and add the words $500." And I submit that also as an amendment.
The other issues that were raised by Miss Brooks, could we look at that to regulate, for example, beepers and P.O. boxes and other types of things? 53 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334
Councilman, we're working on implementing regulations to implement the bill. We will be happy to work with you. I have worked with Judicare in the past.
And there's no 11 motivation here with them other than protecting old people.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry, I was slightly distracted. Did I hear Mr. Campbell propose an amendment for number 2, license required, on , (.5), that the amount is now being reduced from 1,000 to 500?
That's right, Councilman. 54 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334
The testimony from Miss Brooks was that often the people that they deal with who have been defrauded, it winds up in the 5, $600 dollar range, and that's all of what they have saved. And $1,000 for many of these jobs is just too high.
Just to clear it with Mr. Campbell, do you have any idea -- is there any way to estimate the difference in the number of contractors who might possibly be covered by $1,000 thresholds versus a $500 threshold and the Department's ability to legitimately monitor and keep track of all those people?
No, we do not, Councilman. This has been a point of discussion over the years, where we've talked about a threshold as low as $200 and as high as $2500. We're really going into virgin territory. We estimate that we would be licensing some --
We don't want you to talk about virgin territory. (Laughter.) 55 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334
Anyway, yes. We really don't have that kind of experience. We could run back and check permits and then --
Right, I understand your point from the Judicare side. I'm just wondering whether we are literally capturing the universe of people and almost burdening ourselves to the point where we won't be able to do anybody any good. I'm just raising the question. I'm not questioning whether people get defrauded. People get defrauded for $5 out here because there's just some bums out here who do bad things. I'm just questioning our managerial and operational capacity to do a good job for everybody under those circumstance. That's all I'm raising.
As part of that, we will be creating a separate data base to deal with the contractors and --
Could we perhaps get a six-month update on this particular figure? And if it's appropriate to raise it, then consider it at that time? 56 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334
Are there any other questions? (No further questions.)
Thank you very much for coming in. That will conclude our public hearing of the Licenses and Inspections Committee. - - - 57 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 (Public meeting commences.)
The Chair recognizes Councilmember Krajewski for a motion to approve Bill No. 98064 -- we will now convene the public meeting. And the Chair recognizes Councilmember Krajewski for a motion on Bill No. 980645.
Mr. Chair, i move that Bill No. 980645 be voted out of this committee with a favorable recommendation and with a request for a suspension of the rules as to permit first reading at the next session of Council.
Moved and seconded. All in favor, aye? (None opposed.)
Bill No. 980645 is reported out of this committee favorably and a request will be made for a rules suspension to allow for first reading at our next Council session. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter 58 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 for a motion on Bill No. 980655.
Mr. Chairman, I motive that Bill No. 980655 be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation, and a further recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session. (Duly seconded.)
Moved and seconded. All in favor, any? There are none opposed. Bill No. 980655 is reported favorably out of this committee and a request will be made for a rules suspension so as to allow for first reading at our next Council session. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco for motion on Bill No. 980721.
Mr. Chair, I move that Bill No. 980721 be reported out of the committee with a favorable recommendation and with a request for suspension of the rules so as to be heard at the next meeting of Council. (Duly seconded.)
Moved and second. 59 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 All in favor aye? There are none opposed. Bill No. 980721 is reported out of this committee favorably, and a request will be made for a rules suspension so as to allow for first reading at our next Council session. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter for a motion to approve the aforementioned amendments to Bill No. 980334.
Mr. Chairman, I'll move the amendments, but I do have one remaining question. I move the adoption of the amendments as read into the records previously on Bill 15 980334. (Duly seconded.)
The question is on the change in the threshold, whether it was $500 or $1,000. 60 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334
I know it was $500. I said, whether it was 500 or, in the original introduction, 1,000, how does the Department determine, one, the threshold? If a person contracts with someone for a particular job and the contractor realizing that there is now this $500 threshold, says to the person, I can do X-amount of work for 450. I can do the rest of the work for 250. Have they avoided the threshold, or is it the sum total of all of the job?
The Chair recognizes Commissioner Egan. COMMISSIONER EGAN: If they applied for the permit to do the work where the cost estimated at, say, 450, then, yes, they would have avoided that threshold by doing that.
Right. COMMISSIONER EGAN: However, permits are audited on a regular basis, so that is how we could catch them.
Okay. COMMISSIONER EGAN: By going out and 61 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 looking over the work and --
So even if that's an annual audit, with an underbid of 450, the guy gets the job and says, Ma'am, you know, there's a lot more here than I realized. There really is another 350 to this job, I mean, they could do that. But at some point, if there is a subsequent audit and the citizen is recontacted and asked, What was the total amount that you paid for the job? and was realizing it was really 750 $800, you would go back? Okay.
Yes. And, in fact, we have a small audit division in the Department which does that on a regular basis.
Okay. I'm just trying to anticipate what people might try to do out there. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco for on the amendment Bill 980334.
Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 980334, as amended, be reported out 62 11/10/98 L&I COMMITTEE - Bill 980334 of the committee with a favorable recommendation and with a request that the rules of Council be suspend so as to have a first reading at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
Moved and seconded. All in favor, aye? There are none opposed. Bill No. 980334, as amended, will be reported out of this committee favorably, and a request will be made for a rules suspension to allow for first reading at our next Council session. The Chair also recognizes Councilman Rizzo had arrived late but was here during the course of the hearing and appreciate his attendance. This will conclude the business of the Licenses and Inspection Committee. Thank you very much for your attention. (Adjourned at 10:11 a.m.) - - - 63 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Tuesday, November 10, 1998, were reported and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS BILL NO.'S 980334, 980645, 980655, 980721 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter