and steve i think it's also important to point out to the board that under the prior code
uh you'll see it at page 43 of my exhibit packet churches chapels convents monasteries and other
places of worship and their adjunct residential dwellings were permitted by right under the
old code and unfortunately that provision was left out intentionally or unintentionally
uh intentionally or unintentionally in the nuclear so if it was just three sisters we
in the new code.
So if it was just three.
wouldn't be having this conversation that's correct so if three sisters have a guest
come in for a month or two who's to know i'm not trying to skirt the law here i just
it seems like a whole lot of nothing something for nothing i could be wrong it just no you're
right i think your sentiment here we all agree this makes no sense these are the sisters of mercy
for the purpose of the court reporter identify yourself i'm sorry mr shirmer speaking yes we
agree that the sisters of mercy are for all intensive purposes sisters related by vows
which are the exact same as marriage vows because they're all married to the church
That's why you call them sisters.
Unfortunately, the code can't be interpreted that way.
I think this is something we may have discussed before,
but is there a possibility of adding a proviso
that states approved use is limited to convent?
Well, six religious sisters are effectively sisters.
They're not unrelated individuals.
rules, they've all taken a vow, and there's no reason we can go through this.
I know, I understand that, but that may be true under church rules. Unfortunately, they do not.
It isn't the same interpretation given to the zoning code provisions.
Well, I know. I will just pipe up one more time and request that the email that I sent to Ms. Saleta and Mr. Reuter back on June 24th, going through case law in other locations, going, yeah, religious brothers should be considered as brothers.
Religious sisters should be considered as sisters.
And the fact that there's a convent means they're all sisters.
They're all brothers.
There's no need to worry about whether or not this is a multi-person dwelling.
They're all related by formal vows.
Would not a proviso stating that the use is limited to convent have the same effect?
uh no because that would defeat the entire purpose of saying that this property is unique
because whichever property the sisters rented if they rented the place beside it
on the left on the right behind it behind it behind it in the back in the front and the other
side they'd still have the same situation and the issue here is that the property is not unique
unique the property is the same as all the other properties the issue is that l and i doesn't
treat the the issue is that l and i does not treat religious sisters as a family and the property
isn't unique it's the exact same thing as the other property and if somebody else would put
their house up for rent we'd have this conversation claiming that this property is unique the property
next door is unique we all agree that the first that the first question should not this be an
appeal against ellen i what we have before if i believe it's a request for a variance
well that's why we everyone hold on mr hold on everyone we're starting to talk over each other
and i apologize mr patel for interrupting you i was just trying to see if there was a quicker way
of getting to an answer because it just seems to me again it seems like a whole lot of something
over nothing, but I'm not the lawyer here. I mean, it's...
And while I may agree with that, and I also believe that while Mr. Shermer's, I believe
he's well-intentioned here, and I'm frankly inclined to agree with some of his interpretation
of family, for the purposes of this application, what we're seeking is variance relief because
Because, one, right now, that is the only available relief available to the sisters, one. And two, for the, you know, I'm happy to sit down and go and work with the city about changing the language of the code, but I know how much time that takes because I used to work for the law department, and that's not something that happens overnight.
And so right now, what we're seeking is the variance to allow this with the deed restrictions and the provisals that the board can place on this.
And that proposal, the variance that we're seeking, has overwhelming support from the community, from the council member, my understanding, not in opposition from the planning department.
And the Overbrook Farms Club has submitted a letter stating, we want the sisters to stay physically in this property, but as a matter of principle, we can't support this variance request.
we can't support this variance request. And I'd like to, you know, suggest to the board
that while that may be well-intentioned, those two things are currently mutually exclusive.
Opposition and denial of this variance will take the sisters out this house and the community
because the property is being sold. The question is whether the sisters can buy it. And this
granting of this variance would allow them to buy it and stay in the property um that's what this
that's sort of the situation as it stands today um again i'm happy to sort of outside of this
appeal discuss sort of the merits of you know family and things of that nature and again i i
think i agree with almost everything that was said thus far about that um but for the purposes
of this appeal i don't want to get that so i don't want to get lost in the sauce um and lose the fat
lose sight of the fact that if they're denied this appeal, they will have to vacate this
premises. That's what we're trying to stop. Okay, again, I apologize for the interruption. I just
thought that there might be a quicker way of getting to resolve this. And I should mention
we do have a representative from the Sisters of Mercy that I do need to adopt and affirm
our testimony before unless the board has any questions for me i'll ask that any questions
from the board no no uh mr ward no way in at this time or anything or no
we lost sean uh no i'm here i had to unmute myself uh i agree with uh mr bertill uh however i would
add that we did add um this as an appeal against l and i uh in the unlikely event that uh we could
present evidence to the contrary that the sisters are in fact uh a family uh in in the intent and
spirit of the code and if the board was of a mind to adopt that or make a finding and conclusion
that they are no different than the family as defined in the code uh you know that would be
a possible resolution to this case but excuse me i defer i defer to mr bertill because he's
he's lead counsel at this point and i'm just co-counsel excuse me mr board i can't recall
but i know that mr reuter was here for a prior hearing but again if we are going to treat this
is an appeal against lni there would have to be a specific ruling on that and we would need the
law department here to argue well they were they were notified of this hearing i don't know why
they're not here i didn't have any conversations with them maybe steve did but uh my understanding
i i thought i i thought i saw him in the crowd but um maybe i'm uh mr reuter but uh i may be
mistaken um mr bertiel then would you like this also to be considered as an appeal against lni
in which case we can, I suppose, schedule another hearing.
If so, only in the alternative. At this point, for the purposes of what's in the
best interest in the Sisters of Mercy, we would like the variance considered and the support for
this variance considered. And frankly, just what is the most expedient result of approval for them.
And I believe it's the variance. I don't know if that's not the case. But my understanding is that's because that's what was originally filed. That's probably the quickest resolution. But I'm happy to also present this, the same facts, the same record in the alternative as an appeal against LNI. But I don't want to negate the variance as well.
you can do it in the alternative but if we're also if the board is also going to vote on whether
it's an appeal whether it is approved as an appeal against lni we would need mr reuter here
right and if he's not here then i would just want to proceed
okay did i hear someone say uh that there was someone representing the sisters
right we have um because we're still we're actually still on our um presenting the case
we have to have our representative affirm and adopt our testimony.
Well, finish with your testimony and then we'll get to that.
Okay, so in short, I think in summary, I should say, the Sisters of Mercy, what we're looking
at here is a pre-existing use on the property for over 10 years. They're an integral part
of this community. Their neighbors love them. Their landlord loves them. There's been no
issues with them being in the community um they're here essentially on a technicality
um that they're forced to come here um and as such i where our our hope is that
um that they're forced to come here um and as such i where our our hope is that the board will see
that this is such um i don't know if there's a more de minimis um of variance requests considering
um that literally nothing is changing um outside of main outside of the memorialization of their
views um and in that fact i would also like the board to to recognize all the overwhelming support
from both the community and the council member,
individual community members as well.
I understand that the Overbrook Farms Club board
has decided to go a different way,
but I just want the record to reflect that their decision
is not reflective of community desires,
which is evidenced by the letters of support
and the overwhelming majority supporting this variance.
And as such, I'd like to call Maureen McGinnis, who's a representative of Sisters of Mercy, to raise her hand so she can affirm and adopt my testimony.
Ms. McGinnis, you may unmute yourself and please wait for the chair.
Yes, and Ms. McGinnis, please spell your full name and then I'll swear you in.
M-C-G-I-N-N-E-S-S. McGinnis?
First name?
Maureen, M-A-U-R-E-E-N.
Do you swear to affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Yes, I do.
Thank you, Mr. Bertil.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. McGinnis, did you hear the testimony that I provided to the board this afternoon?
I did.
Do you affirm the truth of my testimony and adopt it as your own as a representative of Sisters of Mercy?
And is there anything that you would like to add to the board?
Sure. I would like to take a moment to expand on the comments that you and Sean had given by giving some background about the Sisters of Mercy and why living in community is so important to them.
As Steve had said, the Sisters of Mercy is a religious order who have taken the traditional vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, but they've also taken a fourth vow to care for the poor, the sick, and the uneducated.
They've been working within Philadelphia since 1861 with ministries focused on education,
health care, and social justice.
It might be helpful to understand the difference between nuns and sisters.
Both fulfill essential tasks in the church.
Nuns are focused on a contemplative life of prayer, often living together, but apart from
the world.
Sisters, however, are dedicated to an active life of work sustained by prayer.
Sisters live together within the communities they are serving.
Community is so important to the sisters in every sense of the word.
Community with the world in which they live and community with each other.
The sisters live in small groups for practical and spiritual reasons.
Practically, it supports their vow of poverty.
They share the costs of common living space and they eat together each day.
They support each other in the various ministries that each sister participates.
They begin and end each day in prayer together.
The community of Overbrook Farms is very important to the sisters.
They have lived peacefully within the community for many years.
The house is located in convenient distances to their various works within the Philadelphia community.
the house is a size that allows them space to live together and to support each other
we are in support of the proviso and have agreed to a deed restriction that would transfer the
property to a single family owner when we no longer need it thank you for the opportunity
to explain more about the sisters of mercy and why living in the overbrook farms community is
important to them if you have any questions or concerns i would be happy to address them
any questions from the board no no okay uh i meant uh let's see uh mr shirmer
uh my job is to find a way of getting the sisters into the house and having them stay there uh the
house isn't unique if it takes everybody looking to the side and saying yeah the house is unique
and then we're going to put in a proviso dealing with the fact that the house isn't unique.
Okay, but it seems like it makes more sense for the zoning board to actually tackle the problem,
which is the Sisters of Mercy are actually sisters.
Disclosure, I went to Gwena Mercy under Sister Mary Edward from 1975 to 83, so I'm quite familiar with this.
Disclosure, I went to Gwen and Mercy under Sister Mary Edward from 1974.
And even the Code of Canon Law says that the sisters live as a family.
It'll be a lot easier and cleaner to just say, yeah, Catholic sisters are a family.
We can go through all the machinations of, okay, we're going to pretend that this property is unique
because of the three tests for a variance no they aren't causing any harm no the proper this is the
minimum you know if this was the Waltons you'd have six bedrooms you have three kids in each
bedroom you got 18 kids plus two parents but the problem is that this will follow the sisters
around because the problem is not with the property the problem is with the ownership by
the sisters and we think that it makes more sense to fix that rather than to not fix it and pretend
that we fixed it and then put in a proviso so that we can unfix it later on when we undo everything
but what my job is to make sure that the sisters get in and find a way of doing it which is legal
and enforceable and that makes everybody not unhappy. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I'm not clear
on Mr. Sherman's position. Is he in opposition to the variance?
My client's position is we don't need a variance. The problem is that L&I
incorrectly classifies Catholic nuns as unrelated individuals when, by definition, Catholic nuns
have taken, Catholic sisters, sorry, have taken a lifelong vow, which is comparable to a marriage
vow. And they are dedicated to their life living together. I believe everyone understands your
argument. However, L&I is not bound by canon law.
It is bound by the zoning code. This could be done
maybe through a legislative change, or there could be an appeal against L&I
or an accommodation request. What is before the board at this point is the zoning
variance request. I agree, but there is
case law out there from Missouri and I think Nebraska
and California, which is the email
going back to June 24th
that, yeah, other locations
have found that, well, yes, religious
vows are the equivalent of
marriage vows, so
you can consider all of the
sisters to be married to the church
and then we get rid of this
entire problem instead
of creating a much more complicated
way of fixing
a problem that we shouldn't have.
But again, this is not the board
the board right one at a time one at a time Sharon I'm sorry it's just that this is not before the
board right now what is before the board is a variance request I am not suggesting these aren't
persuasive arguments just that they are not before the board and is it correct am I correct in saying
that the concern uh that is I guess somewhat raised by Mr. Shermer is that if the board grants
this variance and sometime down in the in the future the nuns for whatever reason vacate or
put the property up for sale that this variance will apply uh not now you're shaking your head