So when was the last report you received about a train sitting for an extended period of time?
It's been quite a while, sir. I don't remember the last report I got. 77 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05
Well, do you have any recollection of any train sitting for an extended period of time?
Yes, sir, back in the summertime I do recall trains that happened to be delayed there in the area.
What does that mean? What's a crew issue? Somebody not show up? Somebody having a bad day? I mean, what do you mean, a crew issue?
As Mr. Goetz pointed out, sometimes things beyond our control in other locations may happen because we're all connected to different parts. We run toward North Jersey, which in turn runs into the New York area. If they have an issue up there and they do not have the ability to move a train in their area, it may delay my trains moving from Philadelphia to the New York area. 78 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 Should we need to do track maintenance, we only have a set number of locations that will hold the trains that need to move north or south, and we would in effect pause the train in that location for a period of time until the track maintenance or issue was resolved.
The other thing Larry had talked about about crew issues, oftentimes the crew required in Philadelphia is coming off another train and also have a required amount of rest time by federal law. And so if the inbound train carrying the crew is delayed for some reason, that may impact the availability of that crew for an outbound train from Philadelphia. Again, train crews are a precious resource. It takes a long time to train a crew person. And the railroad is a constantly moving thing that's impacted by events all throughout its network.
Madam President? 79 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05
Thank you. I just have one question that I would like to get clear in my own mind. If a train has to sit or, as we put it -- what is the other word we're using -- be parked, why does it have to occupy the intersection of Locust Street? Why can't it be set down further down on the other tracks?
That often is suggested. Those tracks that go down, there's kind of a long dead-end street. So if you went down there, you'd have to come back the same way you came. The other thing is that you then change the whole order of the train because by going down and coming back, what's in the front of the train would suddenly be in the rear of the train when you came down. You've reversed the direction of the train. You'd have to put the locomotive 80 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 on the opposite end of the train and you'd consume quite a bit of time with that whole manuever. And many of those trains shown in red are high-priority trains. We just do not have time in the schedule to add hours and hours to do all that activity. The second thing is we don't have space.
Excuse me. Suppose you stopped it before it got to Locust Street.
Yes, so the area residents would not have to contend with this.
We have a diagram up there we could show from Locust Street back west toward the Baltimore area the train would in effect block the entire 81 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 yard. We wouldn't be able to move any of our other freight into or out of the yard.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Goetz, I'll try it again. Is there any process negotiated, public hearings, any process whatsoever that we could possibly resolve the access issue short of the federal litigation?
I'm not aware of any. I mean, there isn't any other process that we're currently participating in.
But I'm asking you, could there possibly be any other process? I guess I'm saying are you simply saying today that you will not and you -- maybe you cannot entertain the access issue until the federal litigation 82 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 is resolved one way or the other. So this process of spirit of cooperation, as you said earlier today, these continued hearings in council essentially don't to some degree mean anything as it relates to the ultimate goal of access?
For that issue. That issue already has its own forum in front of federal court, and the City is well represented in that issue.
So the answer is either yes or no. I mean, it's kind of a yes or no answer and I framed it in that way. Is there any other process beyond the federal litigation that we can possibly come up with a resolution for the access issue?
Quite frankly, I'm new at this process as you know and that's the only forum I know of at this stage. That's the forum that that issue has been progressed in. It's the only one that I know of. I mean, are you suggesting a different approach? 83 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05
I'd be willing to suggest any approach if it got us to our ultimate goal of having access. I mean, as an elected official, you have to be somewhat flexible. If there is away to achieve an end and you have to go in a different direction, at the end of the day I think people want to have access to that park. So I'm just trying to get a sense of, you know, are we wasting our time on this issue? I mean, there are other issues as relates to parking and, you know, things --
I certainly hope we're not wasting your time and I certainly hope we're not wasting my time. We do have a number of issues that have been raised and it's my intention to do the best I can to bring some resolution 21 to those issues in whatever forum they currently are in.
Access, let's focus on access. You keep talking about other issues. That's the simple 84 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 question.
The only forum I know of right now is the forum it's being progressed in. That's just the only forum I know.
I didn't ask you that. I said, is there any possibility of achieving in whatever forum, forums you may not know of, forums I may not know of, that can possibly achieve a goal of access short of the federal litigation?
I'm just thinking because my lawyer is telling me one thing and I'm just thinking about, you know, 85 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 how I can get towards the best end here. I don't know how the process is going to go through in the federal court. We are negotiating in good faith and we're presuming that the City is negotiating in good faith. And so I would ask as the City's representation in that, are you going into those settlement discussions --
I probably wouldn't be much help so I tend not to go in there. I have a different way of negotiating. Lawyers have their way. I have my way. I am a politician.
My participation in the process is that when you engage somebody else's time and you say that you're going to talk through an issue and you go into a forum and a process and you use people's time, you proceed to the best of your ability to do that, and you respect that other people have many other things to do. And the City has put presumably, you know, some of its best 86 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 talent in that process and CSX is attempting to put its best people into that process and bring that to a resolution. And we have that forum. We have that process. We're treating that as a serious process.
I'm not suggesting that you aren't. I'm just saying there are other ways of achieving goals beyond the lawyers, no criticism of lawyers but, you know, things do get resolved sometimes without lawyers.
And I guess the honest answer is I don't know of any other at this point, but if you had some ideas, I would certainly listen to them. And I will leave you my business card and I would welcome a discussion with you if you have other ideas, but right now just sitting here at this table, you know, at noon on this day I'm just not coming up with an idea on that, but that's not to say that you may not come up with some perfectly, you know, viable solution 87 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 path. At the same time, I want to respect the City's delegation with these settlement discussions. I assume that you've put very good people on that --
-- and that you do not want us negotiating in a cavalier -- in a way that doesn't really have any impact. I know I would not want to be treated that way.
Okay. That's a more flexible response. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Goetz, I've listened very closely to the colloquy between you and Councilman Clarke. The councilman has laid out, I think tried to give you an opportunity -- I may have lost track. It may have been about six different occasions.
So I lost 88 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 track. Let's talk about forums. You got one forum going on down at 6th and Market. You have another forum going on here at generally what's considered Broad and Market. And I would guess -- I mean, the other option is something that is either away from both of those locations -- and so the question is if you were given the opportunity to participate in a different kind of forum that would allow for more detailed and I'm assuming frank discussion about getting to the issue of access, which is the primary issue that brings us here today, would you participate in such discussion in a different forum?
If one of the members of council approached CSX and said we think we have a better way, we think there's another way to approach this, and it looked like a viable approach, I would certainly, you know, look at that approach. I mean --
But would 89 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 you participate in it?
We want to bring this to resolution just as fervently as you do.
He's trying to help him out again. Do you have enhancement from your counsel?
No. We would look at what you propose. We would look at what you propose.
Let me ask this question: You laid out for us earlier you've kind of been down this road before in a variety of other locales. Would you characterize your experience as having fairly well resolved the concerns that had initially been raised?
What did you do? What was the circumstance and what was your solution?
I can give you 90 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 several different examples. One is a community in northern New Jersey where we have trains that come to rest and there the particular issue is the noise from the locomotive, particularly at night. And so I actually appeared before a legislative body on that particular issue. What we found was that we weren't able to eliminate all the instances of where we have trains sitting, but we were able to reduce the number of hours that the trains were idling and we made a good faith effort to do that. And by reducing the impact, the number of hours, the community felt that that was a good faith effort and it softened the impact.
Do you have any train crossing or pedestrian crossing circumstances, any examples of a situation that would parallel this one and you found a resolution?
Yes, yes. In Montgomery Township, New Jersey -- most of my territory is, you know, heavily 91 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 urbanized so I don't have a -- there aren't a lot of grade crossings in New York City. But in Montgomery Township, New Jersey, a very affluent community just north of Princeton, we have a number of grade crossings there, and the issue there are horns because there are very expensive homes that have been built near grade crossings. And so we're working with that community to establish quiet zones for those grade crossings under the new federal regulations.
If you could give us a report on recent examples up and down the corridor, what the problem was, what the solution was, and whatever your estimate is of percentage completion or percent resolution, that would be helpful. Now, I received information -- 92 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 and I guess this is possibly better answered by Mr. Koster. It's my understanding at 6:45 a.m. -- is today the 19th? 6:45 a.m. yesterday there was a train that sat for about an hour at Locust. Do you know anything about that?
I could -- I don't have the documentation in front of me, but it could be easily accessible to me.
Not directly. I have reports that I look at, but I don't recall that particular train sitting there for an hour.
Let me ask a series of just general data questions. How many trains are coming through this particular area on a daily basis?
Well, we could count them up there. It's probably in 93 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 the neighborhood of to with some extra trains I mean that come through Philadelphia on either route.
On the red route, 8 just basically what you see there. Most 9 of the other trains, as Mr. Goetz has 10 illustrated, travel the high line. 11
And you 15 could I'm assuming -- and do all of them 16 just come through once a day? 17
Or even less 19 frequently than once a day, although just 20 in the interest of having an accurate record here, there are some trains that we deliberately deleted from here. They're not trains that would really have an impact here, but they are trains that carry war materials for the war in Iraq 94 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 and they go to the port of Philadelphia. And because the nation's at war, we did not want to get into exactly how we move war materials, so those trains were specifically eliminated from the discussion.
I 18 understand that. There's no particular 19 peak time? 20
It depends on where 21 you are, again, and the particular 22 trains. There are certain trains that 23 are designed to get to, for example, New 24 Jersey, you know, in the early morning hours. There are trains that are 95 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 designed to get into Philadelphia, you know, at a specific promised time. But trains that are moving through Philadelphia are really being driven by their departure or arrival at some distant location.
And how many cars are on the average train if there is an average train?
Depending on the type of train, it could be anywhere from 75 to 110, 115.
And how long does it normally take to move a train through Philadelphia?
Without stopping 96 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 and changing crews, just continuing on?
Once the train would stop at the office to re-crew at each side yard, anywhere from to 30 7 minutes to get the crew out on the train, 8 get them ready to depart. Then it's just 9 a matter of, you know, the track speed, 10 which is anywhere from 19 miles an hour 11 to 30 through Philadelphia through the 12 red line there. So it just takes a 13 matter of minutes once he begins to pull 14 to get through Philadelphia. 15
And are there standards for crew changes in terms of the amount of time it should take or the amount of sitting time?
We allot 15 minutes per crew change. We try to have everybody on the train and moving within 15 minutes.
How many crew changes take place in the course of a day? 97 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05
About eight to ten per day on the main line plus our yard crews that work locally in Philadelphia.
I don't understand the last part. What does that mean?
Well, we have crews that are specific to Philadelphia that work in South Philly and they're at east side yard just south of Locust Street.
And do all these trains have a fairly regular schedule?
The crews that work in and around South Philadelphia yard and east side yard, yes, sir, they go to work at specific times. The other trains --
Is there 98 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 usually a set time for a crew change?
All the trains are based on a schedule. If they arrive and depart their original locations on that schedule, they should maintain that schedule.
Those schedules are based on traffic patterns and business of the economy of the United States, so the schedule has been put together for periods of years.
I would have to have a report to see what trains were operating on schedule or ahead or behind schedule.
Do you anticipate any trains sitting today? 99 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05
I have not been alerted to any issues north or south or Philadelphia that would delay any train in time.
And do you ever know in advance that a train is going to sit for an extended period of time?
I think there are times where we know we're going to have to hold a train in Philadelphia depending on issues to the north or south of us, yes.
And so when will the next train sit for an extended period of time?
I don't have anything that's scheduled to sit that I know of today.
And I'm assuming that there are local 100 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 representatives of both of the unions that you mentioned, the first one being United Transportation -- is there one more word that goes with that?
Could you forward to us the local representatives of both the United Transportation Union and is it the Brotherhood of Locomotives?
Well, I can answer that because really, I mean, I'm the one that has the responsibility for taking those next steps. And the next thing that we're going to do is we're going to pursue these potential solutions for some, not all of the trains that are marked therein in red. We're going to continue to refine some of these proposals that might involve track 101 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 construction, and we're going to look at, you know, what we do particularly with the trains carrying municipal solid waste.
Now, if you come up with a solution -- and I'm not sure what it's going to be at this point -- to the trash trains, the four that have been mentioned, what impact does that have on the other five? And, of course, you mentioned some others that are not on there. How does that affect -- you mentioned earlier you have other high-priority trains going through. Are they on the red line or are they on the purple line?
Some of them are on the red line and some are on the purple line. The ones with the 100 series tend to be the higher-priority trains. So, for example, up on the purple line there, there's a Q172 I think you'll see up there. And that's a very high-priority train. The 173, 174, those are very 102 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 high-priority trains as well. Those are trains that, you know, they need to be on their way.
I understand. Is part of your examination -- I think I asked you this earlier. Are you planning to look at the prospect of moving any of the red trains over to the purple line?
That really falls into the larger discussion of what, if anything, we could do about how we crew the trains. I mean, so -- and that's not an easy or casual thing.
Is that because of union issues or operational issues?
Now, there was a chart put together. I'm sure you've seen these materials. I mean, this kind of goes back to some items Mr. Koster mentioned. In July, August, and September of the summer of 2004, an 103 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 increasing amount, total hours of blocked access for Locust Street were 36 hours in July, 45 hours in August, 70 hours in September. And in no month until the following June was there ever more than single digit number of hours of blocked access. Why did the numbers spike so dramatically during the summer?
We do a lot of scheduled maintenance during the summer. We also have crew issues during the summer when people are taking vacations. Those are our crew base as far as our employees and scheduled maintenance would be the biggest hitters for those numbers.
Which, of course, would as compared to maybe the dead of winter, although I'm sure a fair number of people are still using the park, but comparatively your crew issues as you characterize them create a significant amount of conflict issues as I would characterize them with our citizens and users. I mean, these are on 104 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 a crash course that your issues are having an effect at the same time as probably the greatest usage of the park. And it's primarily around vacations and other scheduled maintenance?
I mean, I haven't seen this data because, quite frankly, it predates my arrival here in Philadelphia, but is there a professional data collection effort behind this? Are these railroad reports or is this some --
No. I think they're your standard seriously concerned citizens who probably spend a fair amount of their time when they could be enjoying the park watching your trains. So, I mean, for the moment since we're not at 6th and Market but we're at Broad and Market, you know, I'm going to take it that people have spent a significant amount of time and didn't manufacture these numbers. And I'll be glad to put you in touch with the folks who did and you can talk about 105 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 methodology, but I don't know how complicated it is to either look out your window or stand at a particular street and say, you know, that train is here at whatever time and then you come back a little later on and if the same train is there six hours later, I think it's pretty easy to conclude that that's probably the same train that's been sitting there for six hours hours. You don't have to be a meteorologist to figure out if you go to bed at night and the ground is dry and you wake up in the morning and there's 6 inches of snow, you could probably reach the conclusion that it snowed overnight.
We will encounter delays in the summer when we're doing track work. We do track work up north because it's easier to do it and, in fact, it's possible to do it in the summer. And track forces are transferred down south, you know, to do track work in the deep south during the winter months. 106 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05
A slightly different question. You know, the questions that Councilman Clarke was asking, questions that I would ask but have tried to restrain myself, and other members, we find ourselves in a position that we would like answers to certain questions which you can't give us because there is ongoing litigation. On the other hand, it was CSX that filed suit; is that correct?
Why did you file suit? Let's let the record note that Mr. Goetz is having a conference with his attorney to figure out whether he can tell us why they filed suit against us.
Well, that's a good way to start. We'd like to bring it to resolution so we're going to sue you? I guess you got our attention. 107 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 Councilman Kelly?
Gentlemen, I just want to know -- maybe you covered this while I was upstairs. The volume, has that been increasing, the volume of trains using this track?
When you make up a schedule, do you make it up monthly or weekly?
In other words, would you know in the month of January how many trains are going to be using that track?
Not down to the last train, but there is an overall network plan and the main fact of that is the strength of the US economy.
So you could give us a number or at least an estimate, a good estimate of the amount of trains that are going to be using that track in 108 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 January, say?
It would be pretty similar to what we just talked about here. This is our current portfolio of trains.
Over time. The volume was stronger since CSX has taken over because CSX has marketed this area very aggressively.
What I would just like to know is the increase itself. And it's going to continue to increase?
Well, I would appreciate if you would give to the chair at least the numbers from last year and also the numbers projected for this 109 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 January. I would like to see the increase and the amount of increase. Thank you.
Thank you, councilman. Just a couple last questions. On the issue of the suit, now, when was that filed?
I don't know. When was that filed? I apologize. Again, these all occurred before, you know, I had these Philadelphia responsibilities. I believe it was October 2003 -- October 2004.
October 2004. So we're 14 months into a lawsuit and the goal here was to bring it to a resolution?
And so far what's been resolved? 110 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05
Well, we've -- I can tell you what I've learned from my brief involvement with this is that CSX and the City have agreed to engage in, you know, settlement discussions, which we have done. We have met in chambers with the federal judge. We have exchanged various plans and ideas as to how a crossing could be effected. So, actually, quite a bit's been done. Now, neither side has accomplished --
There were other issues raised at the previous hearings regarding the overall infrastructure of the CSX system, for instance, the Columbia Avenue bridge, 25th Street viaduct and a number of other issues. You did indicate to us that you would identify the appropriate person to talk with us about those issues.
You subsequently identified the person and sent a letter indicating that as much as that individual would really like to come up here to Philadelphia from Jacksonville, Florida, where it's, what, probably about 70 degrees --
Well, it's not 25. Otherwise, the Tropicana people would be in trouble. But as much as you would like to have that person up, due to legitimate scheduling issues, they could not be with us today.
We did accept that and we take you at your word that you will make that person available for subsequent discussion. With regard to all of these infrastructure issues, even though we cannot discuss them today or we would not be able to really talk to the main person 112 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 about them today, for the record, I want to make it clear that we would like to have that person in Philadelphia quickly. Secondly, with regard to these issues -- and I will give you the documentation that was laid out in terms of citizen surveys and who the individuals were and then you can have discussions about methodology. Who is working with you on scheduling issues, crew issues, union issues, and cost issues that might help to bring to resolution the various issues that have been discussed here? Is this being done internally by CSX? Have you sought outside consultant advice or support to work with you on any number of issues that have been discussed here?
The answer to your last question is we have not engaged any outside consultants for this effort. We do have an internal team that includes Larry, myself, also includes a gentleman by the name of Randy Cheetham, who has 113 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 responsibility for the state of Pennsylvania, and Mr. John Casellini, who has responsibility -- governmental responsibility for the entire CSX system. And when you get into some of these broader issues, they move from the city arena to a state arena and so that's the reason for Mr. Cheetham's personal involvement.
Well, going back to the issue that was raised by Councilman Clarke, the federal litigation matter will continue on whatever course it is on. To the best of my recollection, we are not parties to that suit directly, but we are certainly very interested in what takes place there. But that will be between CSX and the City law department. With regard to these hearings, they will be continued, but I must strongly emphasize, Mr. Goetz, that members of this committee will ask for -- in the nicest way I can say this, we will insist upon your presence and the 114 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 presence of others with appropriate notice to continue these kinds of conversations in a way that allows for very direct, very open, very honest and frank discussion about any number of issues. The leading issue is access to Schuylkill River Park and I would say at least the goal of eliminating to the greatest extent possible grade crossing interference by train traffic short of an alternative that allows for trains to still move through and pedestrians to move through without significant interference and, of course, in a safe fashion. That must be the focus. That must be the primary goal. I understand you're operating in one forum in a litigation matter. You're in this forum in public hearings. There will be other forums --
-- to have these discussions and we will insist upon your timely participation and the 115 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 participation of others who can appropriately represent the company, provide the kind of information that we need to have. We would like resolution 6 to this issue as quickly as possible as well. And notwithstanding the company's effort in a quite unique fashion to bring resolution by filing a suit against us, you know, there could be other opportunities and other ways to go about this and get it done in a more timely fashion. What we need is your cooperation.
You will have my personal participation in any forum that you want.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One brief question, maybe two. I want to reference the chart again, the drawing. Is there a signal shack associated with the operation of the yard in that area? 116 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05
There's several actually. It's signal main. So they call it a bungalow. There's signal bungalows all up and down the line. You're probably interested with the one at Vine Street.
Right around here. On this diagram, it would be right about here. There's one at Vine Street. I think there's a minor property issue associated with it.
It's the signals that indicate whether a train can move or must stop. This is all signaled main through here so these are -- it's like a 117 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 traffic light for trains. That's what it is.
It controls the signal system and it also detects the presence of trains. It electronically records the presence of trains moving through there.
You're welcome. That may be it at the moment for questions, but I would ask you to hold on for a second. Okay. At the moment there are no further questions. I think maybe your attorney was taking down some information requests or data requests. You'll get those to us as quickly as possible. We will be in touch shortly to talk about infrastructure presentation.
Yes, I would like 118 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 to get a date set for that as soon as possible. The gentleman's name is Mr. Dale Ophart, who's the chief engineer of line of construction. I'd like to have him come up and meet with you.
Thank you for that. We'll be in touch about that. I appreciate your presence at the hearing. And putting aside that while we may not have anywhere near complete resolution of any of these particular issues, it does come across at least as compared to last time CSX was represented, although it would probably be impossible to have further deterioration of relations based on that hearing, it is somewhat clear that with your presence and participation at least maybe the attitude and direction of CSX has modified to some extent and will allow for continued discussion. We will continue to pressure you on getting resolution to these issues. I appreciate the presentation and work that you've 119 Transportation & Public Utilities 12-20-05 done. It is insightful, but we do want a resolution.
Thank you. There being no further questions, this hearing will be adjourned to the call of the chair. Thank you. - - - 120 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me on December 20, 2005, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ________________________________ Kimberly A. Overwise Certified Realtime Reporter Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)