COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING BEFORE COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC PROPERTY AND PUBLIC WORKS - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, December 1, 1998 1:00 p.m. - - - Bill 980531 - An Ordinance authorizing the Commissioner of Public Property, on behalf of the City of Philadelphia to enter into a lease agreement with RedGap Limited Partnership, a Pennsylvania limited partnership, for use by the City of premises located at 4000 North American Street, Philadelphia, pennsylvania, under certain terms and conditions. Bill 980783 - An Ordinance authorizing the Commissioner of Public Property and Fairmount Park Commission, on behalf of the City of Philadelphia to execute and deliver to the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development ("PAID"), without consideration, a deed conveying title to the City's interests in three tracts of land with the buildings and improvements thereon situate in the vicinity of twenty-first and Hamilton Streets, under and subject to the terms and conditions of the Philadelphia Industrial and Commercial Development Agreement between the City, the PAID, and the Philadelphia Development Corporation. Bill 980831 - An Ordinance confirming the sale of a certain lot or piece of City-owned ground, situate 4200 Aspen Street in the City of Philadelphia, and authorizing the Commissioner of Public Property to execute and deliver a deed to Oliver Young, under certain terms and conditions. VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 (Continued) Bill 980847 - An Ordinance renewing the Area I cable television franchise held by Greater Philadelphia Cablevision, Inc., a.k.a. Greater Media Cable, under certain terms and conditions. PRESENT: COUNCILMEMBER AUGUSTA CLARK, CHAIR COUNCILMEMBER JANIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMEMBER JAMES KENNEY COUNCILMMEMBER RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMEMBER DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMEMBER FRANK RIZZO - - - I N D E X BILL 980531 PAGE KENNETH SIPOS, Dept. of Public Property ------ RICHARD SCHAEFFER, OESS ----------------------- ALBERT F. PHELAN, ESQ., Law Department -------- BILL 980783 PAUL DEEGAN, PIDC ----------------------------- JOSEPH PACITTI, Developer --------------------- JOSEPH EGAN, Real Estate Consultant ----------- KENNETH SIPOS, Dept. of Public Property ------- 32 THOMAS CHAPMAN, City Planning Commission ------ 32 BILL 980831 THOMAS CHAPMAN, City Planning Commission ------ 33 KENNETH SIPOS, Dept. of Public Property ------- 34 BILL 980847 JOSEPH JAMES, Dept. of Public Property -------- 36 JOHN PITTS, Greater Media Cable --------------- 43 BARBARA BURNS, General Counsel, Greater Media - 53 MARIE LASOTA, Deputy City Solicitor ----------- 74 JOHN J. DOUGHERTY, Local 98, Penns Port Civic -102 HARRY FOX, Local 98 -------------------------- 114 BETTY THOMPSON, Hartranft School ------------- 116 WILLIAM HOLLENBACH, William Penn High School - 119 BRENDA MAIDEN, James Elverson Middle School -- 122 DONALD WHITE, Special Olympics of Phila. ----- 124 RAY MUNGRO, Berean Institute ----------------- 126 GEORGE MC COLLOUGH, Phila. Community Access -- 127 DEANNA MANDRES, Phila. Community Access ------ 128 - - - 4 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980531 CHAIRWOMAN AUGUSTA CLARK: Good afternoon. The Committee on Public Property and Public Works is now in session. Do we have a quorum? Yes, we do. A quorum being present, present in the room is Councilman Frank Rizzo; Councilwoman Augusta Clark, Chair; Councilman Jim Kenney, and Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller. The Clerk will please read the first bill before the Committee.
An Ordinance authorizing the Commissioner of Public Property, on behalf of the City of Philadelphia, to enter into a lease agreement with RedGap Limited Partnership, a Pennsylvania limited partnership, for use by the City of premises located at 4000 North American Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, under certain terms and conditions. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you. Are there persons present in the room who wish to be heard on this bill? Good afternoon.
Good afternoon, Madam Chairwoman. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Please introduce 5 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980531 yourself to the record, spell your name for the benefit of the stenographer, and proceed with your testimony.
My name is Ken Sipos, Department of Public Property. I'm here today representing the Department testifying in support of Bill No. 980531. This bill will permit the continued use at the current annual lease and change it into a long-term lease for the Department of OESS. Accordingly, I request Council approve this and request that the rules be suspended so the ordinance may be passed on the second reading at Council. And Richard Schaeffer is here from OESS to shed further light on the transaction, and so is our attorney, Mr. Albert Phalen. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you. Good afternoon, sir.
Good afternoon, Councilwoman. My name is Richard Schaeffer. I'm the administrative services director for the Office of Emergency Shelter and Services, and we are currently using the facility 4000 North American 6 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980531 Street for three main purposes. The first one is we use the site as a distribution point for the state-funded emergency food program. This program purchases food and distributes it to our emergency shelters as well as our soup kitchens. Currently, we are providing food for about 2500 people in shelter and over a hundred thousand meals per month through the soup kitchen network throughout the City. The second purpose is that we use it for our donated goods programs. With this program we accept all usable household goods such as furniture or appliances or other household goods, and we distribute those to our shelters, to housing programs, and also to individuals who may need them in order to move into some type of permanent housing. The third thing, and something that we will probably be starting later this month or early January is that we will be providing training for four individuals under the Welfare Work Program. This job training will be in the warehouse and maintenance field, and we will try to provide them or develop skills for them to be able to take into 7 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980531 the job market. And again, we expect that to be starting in about three or four weeks. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you.
Good afternoon, Councilwoman and Councilmen. I represent the law department. My name is Albert F. Phelan, P-h-e-l-a-n. And the Law Department has no 9 objection to this transaction. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Mr. Sipos?
Yes, Madam Chairwoman. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: How long is the proposed lease? What is the proposed annual rent? How much money does the City save by entering into this long-term lease as opposed to continuing with this current annual lease?
It's four years with an additional four years and an additional one year and an additional one year. It's $2.50 cents a foot for 118,000 square feet with a 7 cent a year increase for inflation. And our attorney has further information.
Councilwoman, it starts for an additional four years from December 4, 1998, that's the first term that we're considering now. 8 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980531 Then it goes for another four years after the expiration of that term, and that's 2002 to 2006, and then it goes for one year after that from 2006 to 2007. The rent is, as he said, it increases 6 cents per square footage each year. 7 CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Is this a substantial saving for the City by doing the multi-year as opposed to the annual?
The Law Department cannot comment on that. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Does anybody have an opinion?
I think it was mainly done to preclude an increase to keep it fairly at the same rate that it was without escalating.
Councilwoman, another point is that when we first moved into the building we required some renovations and modifications. We had to install a large refrigerated area for our food program. And by entering into a long-term lease, we're able to amortize those renovations over a longer period rather than taking one big hit in one year. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Give us your opinion 9 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980531 as to the physical condition and utility of these lease premises including its suitability for the purposes of OESS or any physical maintenance or other problems that you expect.
We're very happy with the overall physical condition of the site. As I mentioned, we put in a fairly large refrigerated and freezer area. We also have the place, the entire facility alarmed. There's adequate space for people to be able to shop through the various items that we have. We have had difficulty in the past with some of the sites that we've been using for our food program in that they quickly became crowded and cramped. This plays provides room for expansion and, again, overall we've been very happy with it. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Any other questions? Mr. Rizzo?
You just mentioned the building being alarmed. Because of its use, does it fall into a special category where it has to have monitored smoke and fire detection systems, meaning, that it goes to a central station in case there's a fire.
Yes, that's correct. 10 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980531
But nursing homes and places like that have a special standing when it comes to L & I regs. Does this fall under any special category that has heightened regulations for fire, smoke, and security.
I'm not aware of any existing regulations that would govern the type of alarm. I do know that we do have, I think, motion detectors as well as fire alarms. But whether or not they comply with specific regulations, I'm not sure.
Excuse me, is this a storage area? This is a storage facility, right? There's nobody living there? There's nobody going to be living there or sleeping there, right?
I thought I misunderstood that this was some kind of nursing or overnight facility, but there's no people here.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. I just wanted to make sure. Thanks. 11 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980531 CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Are there any other questions by any other members? Councilwoman Blackwell?
Thank you. Let me say that it is certainly a pleasure to see you. It is interesting that when it looks like one function changes that how some people look better and do better and when you're not there with all these homeless folks, the whole world changes, I'm telling you. Maybe we're in the wrong end of this. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. We're certainly happy to support this. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: If I were you, I would take that and run. Any other questions? Thank you very much. Are there other persons in the room who wish to be heard to speak on bill No. 980531? There being none, thank you very much, gentlemen. The Clerk will read the next bill before us.
An Ordinance authorizing the Commissioner of Public Property and Fairmount Park 12 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 Commission, on behalf of the City of Philadelphia, to execute and deliver to the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development ("PAID"), without consideration, a deed conveying title to the City's interests in three tracts of land with the buildings and improvements thereon situate in the vicinity of 21st and Hamilton Streets, under and subject to the terms and conditions of the Philadelphia Industrial and Commercial Development Agreement between the City, the PAID, and the Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you, gentlemen. Please proceed with your testimony. First introduce yourself to the record and spell your last name.
Good afternoon, Madam Chair. My name is Paul Deegan, D-e-e-g-a-n. I'm representing PIDC. I think I submitted the written testimony. Briefly, this bill authorizes the City, Department of Public Property in the Fairmount Park Commission to convey a 18,741 square-foot parcel of vacant land to the Philadelphia Department for Industrial Development. PAID will sell this property to PRA 13 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 Development Management Corporation, subject to a development agreement between the PRA and the Fairmount Park Commission. PRA intends to combine the City-owned land with property that they already owned and construct a 20-story, 225-room hotel with accessory commercial space and parking. As part of the agreement with Fairmount Park, the developer will also make certain improvements to the adjacent Rodin Museum property and will also contribute a yearly sum to the maintenance of the museum. The development of this site with a new hotel will provide a number of benefits to the City. It will add 225 new hotel rooms to the City's growing stock of hotel facilities. It will make capital improvements and ongoing maintenance to the Rodin Museum property which is also a convention tourist attraction. It will create a hundred new jobs and a tax-paying hotel with no public financing. There's no request for public money, either directly or indirectly. It's also a well-designed building creating an attractive backdrop to the Rodin Museum. I think both the Art Commission and Fairmount Park Commission have reviewed and approved 14 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 the plans for the hotel. The appraised fair market value of the land to be conveyed is approximately $600,000. The final consideration settlement will be based on the fair market value of the raw land and the value of the improvements to the Rodin Museum site to be provided by PRA pursuant to the development agreement with Fairmount Park. Although the agreement is not in final form, the value of the improvements may equal or exceed the value of the raw land. Representatives of the developer are present if you have any questions, and I'd also be happy to answer any questions. And I would ask that the Committee consider the bill favorably and report it out with a suspension of the rules so it can be considered at the next regularly scheduled meeting of City Council. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Are there any questions?
I have a small amendment to one of the legal descriptions. It's several pages into the ordinance. It's not in the short title. Description No. B-1 which I'd like to hand up and I also have the disk so that the Clerk's office can 15 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 make the change. It just adds a sentence with a distance and a bearing to the description labeled B-1. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: In an earlier discussion of this bill in this plot of land, there was a mistake in the description. It said "easterly" when it should have been "westerly." Has that been corrected here?
I don't think that's in this bill. I think the bill was drafted differently. I think the title of this bill says "in the vicinity of 21st and Hamilton," which maybe that's the way we should have described the earlier bill to get away from southeast, southwest. Sometimes it's subjective what's south. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: My question, Mr. Deegan, is is the description that's in bill 19 correct?
Yes, ma'am, the short title is correct and does not need to be amended. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Now, as to your amendment.
Ma'am? CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: You're about to read 16 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 us or discuss the amendment you just handed up to us?
I'm sorry, I'll have to get it back. I can read the addition. It's just a metes and bounds addition to description B-1. Could I have it back? I'll read it into the record. I think it's on of the pink bill, and it's description, parcel B-1, which begins "On that certain parcel or piece of land known as B-1 situate in the Eighth Ward of the City of Philadelphia." Then it goes on the next paragraph, "Beginning at a point," and at the end of that paragraph, the fifth line from the bottom after "Rodin Museum" we would like to delete the word "and," we would like to add a semicolon and then add the words "Thence north 44 degrees, 35 minutes, 39 seconds west, the distance of 77 feet 6 1/8 inches to a point also being the first mentioned point and place of beginning." This was when the legal description was done, it didn't include the last leg to close off the parcel. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Are there questions by members of the panel? 17 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783
Madam Chair, thank you for recognizing me. This is not a question. I had been requested as in the previous hearing of the Rules Committee on this issue to submit for the record a letter from the president of the Spring Garden Civic Association, Patricia L. Freeland, opposing this bill and asking it to be held and also asking the bill earlier on in the Rules Committee to be held, which was held. So I will submit this for the record and there are copies here for members of the Committee. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Mr. Deegan, why is this heard before the development agreement between the PRA and the Fairmount Park Commission have been executed? Shouldn't this Committee have the benefit of knowing what the terms of that agreement are, especially the sales price and improvement arrangements before we are asked to approve the deal?
I think because the agreement isn't final, I think it's been the subject of several meetings of the Fairmount Park Commission. I think it's been approved in concept by the Commission, but it has not been put in the 18 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 final draft by the City's Law Department and taken to a formal Fairmount Park Commission meeting. The agreement does, I think, basically describe what the improvements requested by the art museum who operate the Rodin Museum, what they would entail and it puts a number on them and it also includes a yearly maintenance. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Can we infer from that that the art museum has expressed approval of the project?
Yes, Madam Chair, they have. They have been working with the developer and with the Fairmount Park Commission. I think the land in question is really not usable as park land. It's a slope, it's a portion of a slope next to the railroad right-of-way that used to carry the Inquirer, News Print, et cetera, to North Broad Street. It's below grade. And the Park Commission, normally their practice is to lease property rather than to sell it because they don't like to dispose of park land, but because this land is so marginal and because the benefits that will accrue to the Rodin Museum are so substantial, they made an exception in this case and 19 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 they have agreed to sell it. But the bill is -- I mean, it would be nice to have everything in one package, but because of the timing to get this thing in place, I think everybody would like to know that the concept of re-zoning it, which is kind of the first yes/no question, and the land conveyance are in place before Fairmount Park would approve a final agreement. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: How is the PRA financing the purchase of this property and the proposed subsequent hotel project?
It's privately financed. But I think the developer is here, I think he would probably be better able to speak on that. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: What City incentives will be used to subsidize the venture?
There are no public incentives included in this project. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: What other project are being considered for the Parkway art museum area, and does this project compliment those other ventures?
I'm not familiar with any other projects along the Parkway, and I don't think 20 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 anybody from Fairmount Park is here. I know that this project was reviewed by the park, the drawings and the architectural renderings, and by City's Art Commission because it will make use of publicly-owned property and it is adjacent to the Parkway. And the Art Commission and the Fairmount Park Commission are happy with the design of the building, and the Rodin Museum people, who will be its closest neighbor, are happy with the design. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Were any other purchasers and/or projects considered for this location? If so, please provide the name of prospective purchasers, their ventures, and the price they were willing to pay.
We haven't had any other developers interested in the parcel. Really, the City parcel is going to be combined with land owned by PRA. And I don't think anybody could use the City parcel as a stand-alone development site. I think you really need to own the corner which is owned privately to assemble the whole site and make it a developable parcel. I think if it weren't for the adjacent land owner coming forward with this plan, the 18,000 square feet of City land would 21 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 never be developed. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: You mentioned in your statement that the sale price will be dependent on the assessed fair market value of 600,000 and the value of the land improvements. Can you tell this Committee with any degree of certainty what the actual sale price will be?
No, at this point I can't. The appraised value, and we have a recent appraisal, is 600,000 based on other transactions in the area in Center City. I think the final amount of money at settlement will depend on how much Fairmount Park wants to get in actual improvements and how much cash they want. So I think if Fairmount Park asks for, say, $400,000 in capital improvements to the Rodin Museum site and $200,000 cash, then that would be what would happen at settlement. Or it could be more. I think at this point the improvements that the park would like are really in excess of the $600,000 appraised value. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: How many construction and other jobs will be created by this proposed hotel?
There will be a hundred 22 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 full-time employees new jobs created. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: How many?
One hundred. I'm not sure how many construction jobs it would be. It's a 35 million dollar construction project. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Will the PRA comply with the equal access policies? And if so, who will monitor the compliance?
Can I have the developer speak to that? I think they could probably answer it better than I can.
Yes, Madam Chair, can you repeat that question, please? CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: First, sir, let me welcome you to this hearing and ask you to introduce yourself to the record and spell your last name for the stenographer.
It's Mr. Joseph Pacitti, P-a-c-i-t-t-i. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Mr. Pacitti, my question was whether PRA will comply with the City's equal access policies; and if so, who will monitor your compliance?
We did a similar 23 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 construciton job back in 1971, it was a redevelopment property at Fourth and Market Street and we had an in-house gentleman that handled it for us. We conformed to those requirements. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Someone on your staff will have the responsibility of monitoring how well you give access to minorities, woman, and disabled contractors and will maintain and report to you?
What had transpired at that particular time was he was our point person in the office and there was a point person within the other administrative Office of Equal Opportunities and they worked together. We did that in Allentown also. We had the same situation in downtown Allentown. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: You want to be heard, sir?
Joseph Egan, I'm the real estate consultant to Joe. On the employees, we have contacted Impact Service Corporation in the North Philadelphia area and we are discussing with them if we hire employees, full-time employees in the hotel early in the process we would work with the Welfare to Work process. And it's something I believe in 24 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 because I've been treasurer of Impact for a long time, and we agreed to do that and I got Joe to agree to do that. And it will probably be the first new construction hotel to be built in Philadelphia that will have a Welfare to Work Program in place. The minute it opens it will be worked with the flag that we pick. So we're committed to that process. In terms of construction, we will meet -- we'll follow the format that PIDC uses on major public projects in working. We have good working relationships with the building trades in this City in that sense and they know the process and we know the process. And we'll agree to the language that the City wishes to have, the same as we would use in PIDC. It's something that Councilman Street raised with us right in the very beginning of this process. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Well, you know we have a continuing interest in it. You have only to go back over the Coverna hearings over the last few weeks to know that our interest is active and vibrant. Mr. Rizzo wishes to be heard on this subject. 25 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783
What I heard from Mr. Deegan, there's some uncertainty on exactly the participation or what the Rodin Museum will get out of this. Here it says "make certain improvements." Is there any place where those improvements have been agreed upon between PRA and the Museum.
We have currently been dealing directly with the Rodin Museum with our architect and we have various schemes that have been worked out with them and we are still in that dialog right now. I'll tell you that we've agreed to put in a walkway which exceeds a million dollars. We've agreed to build in a buffer for the City of Philadelphia for the Schuylkill Metro Line that has crash walls in the project. We've agreed to do a long-term maintenance of the site year in, year out, of the Rodin site, all the grounds that are around the site and around the walkway. I think what the meetings are with Fairmount Park, they've agreed in principle to this process. I think the only thing that they're looking at is what's the level of maintenance that we're going to put on the site and does it meet their standards.
So that hasn't been COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 established at this time?
But it's a minor, minor, minor detail. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Mr. Egan, if I understand you, you're going to meet all reasonable requests with respect to that grounds-keeping.
Absolutely. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: You will provide us with a more up-to-date list of what those improvements will be? You mentioned a million dollars.
In fact, I can give you a copy of our letter to them and our memorandum for the record. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: That would be great. I would appreciate that.
Which lays out step by step by step. When you're talking about improvements, they want our architect to say exactly what kind of material. That's the kind of things 27 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 that we're involved in, Councilwoman. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: But you've agreed in principle to a level of participation that's acceptable to you and to the art museum.
I can tell you, the Fairmount Park Commission will not sign that agreement unless they're absolutely satisfied. When they agreed in concept when we laid out our proposal to them, I think we got 98 percent there. But they're very careful what they do, they're very professional. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Are there others who wish to be heard? Mr. Nutter?
Thank you, Madam Chair. Let me just make sure that I have a good understanding of this project. From the earlier hearing, as Councilwoman Clark mentioned, there was some issue about the site but Mr. Deegan indicates that we're just generally now going to say in the vicinity of 21st and Hamilton. And this is an area directly behind the Rodin Museum; is that correct?
This is a 20-story 28 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 hotel?
There will be parking. It's some commercial, not major commercial.
Yes, we have a booklet we gave out this morning. I thought maybe you had it.
I'm actually not on that particular committee, the one committee I'm not on.
We have 225 spaces for parking, and it's an all-suites hotel. It's on three levels of parking. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: That accommodates how many cars, sir?
Three levels, ground level 29 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 and level 1, 2, and 3. And it's a public parking lot.
Is that contained within the building or exterior to the building?
It's parking that comes out, you know the site, it comes out of the ground and goes above. And stories above grade and 9 three levels of that 20 stories being parking. 10
Are there no height 11 restrictions in that section of the City? I 12 remember the big controversy with One Liberty Place 13 and the various hotels. And then at some point in 14 time there was in this Council prior to my time, I 15 think, some height restrictions put in for certain 16 buildings in certain areas or there was an area that 17 was created to deal with tall buildings. 18
The Art Commission and 19 Fairmount Park Commission and City Planning -- our 20 original, I think, was 26 stories and they lowered the building to 20. And 20 is easily within the height limit.
Did I understand that the project cost on this was 35 million dollars? 30 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783
Although there is the transferring of this land from Fairmount Park to make this value?
Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Mr. Egan, height-wise, how does this building compare to an apartment building at 22nd and Spring Garden.
That's stories, and the 23 other is about 22 stories. They're higher than we 24 are. And it casts a long shadow where they're 25 located. 31 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: So you would be the newest kid on the block, but you wouldn't be the tallest kid on the block?
Not by a wide margin. They're much taller than we are. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Mr. Rizzo?
In reference to parking, you have 225 spaces. You have 225 rooms. It's given that everybody that comes to the hotel is not going to drive. What consideration has been given for employee parking? Will this have an impact on the neighborhood with employees parking and consuming what is already pretty tight parking situation in that community.
Also part of our negotiations, Councilman, we are allowing parking for the Rodin employees at the lower level below our parking lot. If you saw the site, if you started at Hamilton, you have a cut, a railroad cut. It goes down. At the ground level we're supplying parking for our employees and the employees of the Rodin Museum.
But we're setting aside 32 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980783 parking. Most of our employees, I would think of the hundred would not -- I would say would use public transportation. Maybe a quarter of them, at best, would drive. And that might be pushing it.
Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Are there any other questions by any other members of the committee? Thank you.
Thank you for your courtesy. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Are there other persons in the room who wish to be heard in favor or against this bill?
Madam Chairwoman, my name Ken Sipos, Department of Public Property. I'm here to testify in support of the bill. And it authorizes the conveyance of three parcels consisting 18,741 square feet of vacant land to PAID, and the Department supports the initiative by the Commerce Department and respectfully request that City Council approve bill 980783. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you, sir. Good afternoon, sir.
Good afternoon, Madam 33 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980831 Chair. Madam Chair, members of the Committee, for the City Planning Commission, my name Thomas Chapman, that's C-h-a-p-m-a-n. The City Planning Commission at its meeting of November 5, 1998, reviewed Bill No. 980783 and recommended that it be approved. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you. If there are no other persons to be heard with respect to this bill, we thank you very much for coming. The Clerk will read the next bill before us.
Bill No. 980831, an Ordinance confirming the sale of a certain lot or piece of City-owned ground, situate at 4200 Aspen Street in the City of Philadelphia, and authorizing the Commissioner of Public Property to execute and deliver a deed to Oliver Young, under certain terms and conditions. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you. Are there persons present who wish to be heard on this bill, Bill No. 980831? Mr. Chapman, good afternoon.
Good afternoon again. 34 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980831 Councilwoman, members of the Committee. For the City Planning Commission, my name, again, is Thomas Chapman. This bill No. 980831 confirms the sale of 4200 Aspen Street. It's my understanding that this bill is more less a matter of housekeeping. A bill 7 confirming the sale of the property had been introduced back in May of 1994, but for some reason or other, that bill had never been acted on by City Council. The property is proposed to be sold to a Mr. Oliver Young for $4100. That's the same person that was interested in purchasing the property back in 1994. The property is zoned R10A residential which permits single family occupancy. And for the record, the Planning Commission has considered this bill and recommended that it be approved. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you. Mr. Sipos?
Madam Chairwoman, members of the committee, this property was sold at a public auction. And the purpose of this bill would be to confirm the sale. And if it is confirmed, we would be able to complete the transaction. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you. Are there questions by the panel? 35 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 Councilwoman Blackwell?
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. We would like to say that we are glad to finally just catch up with this. And certainly we concur that it was a bookkeeping error that was not completed way back, so we're glad to get this completed. Thank you. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you. There being no other questions by members of the panel, are there persons in the room who wish to be heard to speak in favor of or against Bill 980831? There being none, I thank you very much, gentlemen. The Clerk will read the next bill before this Committee.
An Ordinance renewing the Area I cable television franchise held by Greater Philadelphia Cablevision, Inc., a.k.a. Greater Media Cable, under certain terms and conditions. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you. Are there persons present who wish to be heard to speak in favor of this bill? Would you introduce yourself for the record and spell your name for the benefit of the 36 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 stenographer and proceed with your testimony.
Thank you very much, Chair. Good afternoon. My name is Joseph James, Deputy Commissioner for the Department of Public Property. I'm here on behalf of Commissioner Andres Perez. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Proceed.
With me today is Vince Costello, Director of Communications for the Department of Public Property. It's a pleasure to appear before the Committee today to briefly review the substantive provisions of the cable franchise proposal submitted to the City by Greater Philadelphia Cablevision commonly referred to as Greater Media Cable. Based upon the negotiations pursuant to this proposal, it is my recommendation that the City renew the cable television franchise for Area I, served by Greater Media. Bill No. 980847 was introduced in November of 1998. Representatives from the Department have engaged in continuous discussions with representatives from Greater Media concerning renewal of the franchise as permitted by the bill. Through the franchise renewal process, we have sought terms for an agreement that will best serve 37 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 the needs of the communities in which Greater Media operates as well as the needs of the City. Specifically, these terms include issues such as term of renewal, franchise fee, system upgrade, institutional network services, public educational and government access, local origination programming, MBE/WBE and EEO commitments, customer service standards and billing. In the specific terms of the renewal, Greater Media renewal of the franchise agreement for years for Area I, commencing upon expiration of 13 the current agreements. A 15-year term will provide 14 the City with an improved telecommunications 15 infrastructure, new cable-related services and technology, and additional franchise fee revenues. On the franchise fee: The franchise fee, determined by the Federal Cable Act, may not exceed 5 percent of the cable operator's gross revenues derived from cable services per year. Greater Media has agreed to continue to pay to the City 5 percent of its annual gross revenues, including revenue from cable modem services. The current annual revenue to the City from Greater Media is 30 percent of the total franchise fees of 38 COM. 4 million a year. We expect this revenue to increase over the length of the term given the additions of cable modem services. Greater Media has agreed to upgrade its system in Area I to a minimum of 870 MHz bandwidth by installing fiber optic cable which will provide a minimum capacity of 80 downstream analog channels and 320 MHz available for digital video and data services. Greater Media began its upgrade in the Spring of 1998. The upgrade system will be capable of two-way operation for the provision of interactive services such as home banking, home shopping, travel information and reservations, news and information retrieval, and will permit access to the Internet and digital data transmissions utilizing high-speed cable modems. Greater Media has committed to completion of the upgrade system by March 21, 2001. Greater Media has agreed to interconnect 17 police and fire department locations in Area I using fiber and coaxial cable to provide data exchange capability at a minimum speed of 56 kilobits. Additionally, Greater Media will provide 39 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 data exchange service among connected locations at no cost to the City. 544 7 megabit channels of bandwidth interconnecting eight 8 City offices in Area I using fiber and coaxial cable 9 to provide capability to exchange data. 10 On the public, education and government 11 access, Greater Media has agreed to renew 12 commitments to public, Educational and Government 13 Access (PEG) programming; however, Greater Media has 14 requested revision of specific provisions of 15 educational and governmental access. 16 Public access: Greater Media has agreed 17 to roll forward, on the same terms provided in the 18 current franchise agreements, its commitment to fund 19 equipment and capital facilities for Public Access, 20 and its commitment to forward annual operating funds 21 to the Public Access Corporation upon City request.
Greater Media capital funding obligations is $675,000 total for Area I, annual operating funds obligation, deductible from franchise fees paid to the City, totals between $75,000 to $125,000 as 40 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 directed by Council. Five Public access channels, currently on loan to Greater Media remain returnable to City upon demand, pending implementation of a Public Access Corporation. Local universities: Three channels will continue to be available for educational programming by local colleges and universities. For the school district, two channels will continue to be available for use by the Philadelphia School District for distribution of educational programming; the City will exchange one analog channel presently used by the School District upon Greater Media provision of a digital closed circuit channel for School District use. Greater Media will ensure implementation of Cable in the Classroom programming throughout the city's public schools within the Greater media service area. Additionally, Greater Media will make a lump sum grant to the Philadelphia School District of $250,000 for use by the District, at its discretion, to fund video programming and the communications needs of the schools. Upon my request as the Commissioner of public Property and once cable modem service is commercially available in the franchise 41 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 area, Greater Media will equip each public and private K through school with Area I with one 4 free cable modem. 5 Greater Media currently has use of one 6 of the two government channels to broadcast the 7 Pennsylvania Cable Network. The City will continue 8 to use one government access channel for City 9 broadcast activities. Greater Media has agreed to 10 make a $250,000 grant available to the City for the 11 purchase of replacement, upgrade, and maintenance of 12 equipment in the government access center facility. Greater media has agreed to continue its commitment to Cablecast each week a combined minimum of 40 hours of programming originating locally, and to continue to operate and maintain production facilities and staffing necessary to fulfill this commitment. Throughout the renewal term, Greater Media has agreed to comply with minority-owned and women-owned business enterprise participation and employment goals and will meet participation levels established by the city. Greater Media has agreed to contribute $250,000 to the Philadelphia Commercial Development Corporation to underwrite 42 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 low-cost small business loans to certified local minority and women-own business enterprises. Greater Media agrees to comply with all applicable federal, state, and local requirements related to minority, female and other special group employment, training, and promotional opportunities. Greater Media is committed to make available 30 percent of all jobs within Greater philadelphia Cablevision to minority employees and percent of 11 all jobs within the company will be allocated to 12 women. 13 Greater Media agrees to adhere to the 14 national Cable Television Association and Federal 15 Communications Commission customer service standards 16 and requirements. Greater Media specifically adopts 17 the NCTA on time guarantee which provides for free 18 standard installation if a technician does arrive 19 within a four-hour appointment window and a $20 20 credit if a technician does not arrive to service within the four-hour window. Greater Media agrees to freeze rates for its Basic tier (B-1) programming service from January 1, 1999 through January 1, 2000. Greater Media also agrees to preclude negative option 43 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 Billing, a procedure where the failure to object to a billing term resulted in customer being billed for a service or item. In conclusion, the terms to which Greater Media is committed are acceptable to the Department.
I respectfully ask the Committee to adopt the amendments to the agreement as presented in my testimony, and that the rules of Council be waived to allow this bill, as amended, to be reported out of Committee and have its first reading at the next Council session. I am now available to answer any questions you might have. Thank you very much. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you very much. Maybe we'll hear testimony from both of you and just question both of you. Good afternoon, sir. How are you?
Good morning, ma'am. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Welcome to these hearings. Introduce yourself to the record, spell your last name for the stenographer and direct your testimony in the way you see fit.
For the record, my name is John Pitts, P-i-t-t-s. I'm the vice president and 44 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 general manager of Greater Media Cable. And I'm here to discuss our renewal proposal and I've prepared a short presentation that I'd like to show right now. But before I do that, I'd like to introduce two people that are with me here. To my left is Barbara Burns, our vice president and general counsel from the corporate office. And to my right is Joe Neff, the director of business operations from the Philadelphia office. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: You're going to show a video presentation?
Yes. What I plan to discuss is the overview of our current operations and then movement to a summary of the proposed items in the renewal. Our main office is located on Columbus Boulevard just down from Penns Landing where we've been located for over the past ten years. We employ 171 employees and of our very diverse work force, 75 percent of the employees live within the limits of Philadelphia. In addition to our cable operation, we also have four affiliate radio stations, WMGK, WMMR, WPEN, WXXR operating in the Philadelphia area. Since the beginning of the franchise, 45 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 the current franchise, we've made numerous contributions. A partial list is on the screen now. Our contributions just in dollars has exceeded a quarter of a million dollars in the past ten years or so, and that doesn't include in kind services and other things that we have contributed. In the area of our commitment to education, we have been involved in the cable-in-classroom program that provides commercial-free programming to schools in our area, over 500 hours per month and the guides to instruct teachers on what the programs are and to alert them when interesting topics are coming up. We've also participated and funded many scholarship programs. We've adopted William Penn High School and we do provide a scholarship annually there. We've also done similar things with people going to Temple and also we've been a big supporter of the Police Athletic League Scholarship Fund. We also produce many of our own local origination programs that are educationally based. And we participated in numerous other educational programs throughout the City. And I believe there are some people here today that will speak to that 46 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 issue when we're done. Speaking about local origination, we broadcast 260 hours of local origination programming per month. And of that 260 hours, 126 of those hours are produced at your studio on Columbus Boulevard. We also produced and broadcast special events like the Newman Southern game that we produced live on Thanksgiving Day. And of course we have our community bulletin board that many people use to advertise upcoming local events. Now, I'm going to shift gears a little bit and talk about the items that we're proposing. As you've already heard, we are in the process and we're proposing to continue to upgrade our system to 870 megahertz, and rather than have a diagram or chart to describe that, I'm going to speak in a layperson's terms here. It's a million dollar 20 project. It starts with a fiber optic ring that 21 connects four strategically located hub sites. That 22 includes our head in on Delaware Avenue. This 23 upgrade is going to allow us to provide many more 24 services including digital cable, high speed access. 25 It's also going to increase the -- I'm sorry. 47 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 Again, it will increase the channel capacity, but it also will increase reliability so people that remain at the same level of service will see an increase picture quality and reliability. We are also going to build a fiber optic institutional network for the City. This will interconnect certain government offices including the building that we're in now, City Hall, also the police districts and fire stations. This will allow these offices, fire stations, and police districts to exchange data between the locations and this will be done at no cost to the City. And because many of these locations are already transferring data between them, moving the data from whoever the current provider is to our network will result in a savings, a significant savings in telecom costs to the City. We're also going to contribute 250,000 to government access.
There are two government access channels, and I don't believe there is a studio, so we're going to donate this money or we're going to contribute this money to buy equipment and facilities, and we believe that it will enhance the City's access channel. 48 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 In the area of MBE and WBE commitments, we are going to fund a revolving loan fund at the cost of $250,000. This revolving loan will provide monies for local minority- and women-owned businesses that are certified in the City of Philadelphia. We believe that over the 15-year life of the new franchise, this will generate millions of dollars in loans. In the areas of schools and libraries, we are going to contribute $250,000 in a lump sum contribution to the school district. We are going to continue and possibly we want to beef up the cable in the classroom, and part of the way that we will do that is by offering free cable modems to all schools and libraries, public and private, and also the free cable modem service as well, plus we will also instruct people on how to use the cable modems and offer seminars throughout the area. We will also create a closed digital channel that will allow the schools to produce and in a closed circuit type fashion view educational programs just in the school district. And as it was explained before, that will be in exchange for one of the two analog channels that they're currently using. 49 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 And finally, in the area of public access we are going to renew the capital funding commitment of $450,000 that's currently in the current franchise agreement. So in summary, we're going to upgrade our system 870 MHz; provide and build a fiber optic institutional network for data between the sites that I mentioned at no cost to the City; contribute $250,000 for government access; create the $250,000 revolving loan fund for minority business and women-owned businesses; $250,000 contribution to the school district; free modems for schools and libraries and the closed digital school network; and $450,000 for public access. We appreciate the opportunity to serve the City for the past 15 years, and we look forward to the opportunity to go forward. Thank you very much. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you, Mr. Pitts. Can we put the lights back up now, please? Mr. Rizzo, you may go first.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate all the good things you plan to 50 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 do, but I just want to be real specific on a particular issue. About the modems, you indicate libraries and public and private schools. Could you be more specific on what you mean by public and private schools.
Well, all the K through 8 public schools now are all wired for cable. So 9 those schools will get a cable modem. And the cable 10 modem the way we envision it now would best be used 11 in like a cable lab -- I'm sorry. In a computer lab 12 operating 10 to 12 computers. We'll do the same thing in private schools which we're not doing now. We will also provide them --
I just wanted to be sure of that. Thanks. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Yes, Mr. Mariano?
Thank you, Madam Chair. You made a statement that of 171 employees 75 51 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 percent of them live in Philadelphia. That's a correct statement? Or is that the person before you who said that?
Do you know of a group called Commercial Construction Group, CCG?
They are a contractor. They built the system at the beginning of the franchise.
I heard that they have 18 employees. Do you know out of those 18 employees, would you believe that 16 of them were non-residents of Philadelphia? 52 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847
Do you have the same minority participation with your subcontractors that you have with the people that work directly for Greater Media?
No, how many minority participation by your subcontractors. That's what I'm interested in.
Well, we don't require -- there aren't any minority participation requirements.
I'm asking you that. Do your subcontractors have minority participation, yes or no? 53 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 If you don't know, say "I don't know," but you have to get it for me if you don't know.
May I answer that? Our contract with CCG contain language that -- CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: First, we need your name, please.
Pardon me? CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: We need your name for the stenographer, and then I need you to pull the microphone very close to you so we can hear you.
My name is Barbara Burns, B-u-r-n-s. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Thank you.
Our contract with CCG requires the contractor to -- it advises the contractor of our minority hiring goals and asks them to assist us in meeting those goals. We do not require nor is there any mechanism for us to require them to subscribe to those goals.
Let me ask you on that line, during your fiber upgrade, you upgraded you system of course to the newest fiber optical system. When you did that, how many local people or how many minorities did you use for that? Did you do that or 54 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 did your subcontractor do that?
We use contractors to do that kind of work because it's not something that we do on a day-to-day basis. We could not maintain a work force to upgrade the City 365 days a year every year during our franchise. So to the extent that we need to perform upgrade work, we have to go out and hire a contractor to do that.
When you have a subcontractor, do you monitor the rates they're paying to these people? I mean, if they're cable installers, there may be a certain prevailing rate that we would have to have the City pay these cable installers. Since you don't monitor minority participation or you don't monitor area residents, I want to know if you monitor that question. Do you monitor that you're paying prevailing rate to these subcontractors, or are these subcontractors just free-lancers?
No, we don't monitor that. Everyone is subject to the same wage and hour laws, federal and state.
Every employer in state is 55 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 subject to federal wage and hour and state wage and hour laws.
Say I'm Greater Media and I want to put some new cables in and I hire Councilman Rizzo's company to do this. I just say, "Councilman Rizzo, your company, do what you got to, Councilman. You know, as long as you do the work, I'm not concerned who you're hiring, who's doing the work, what you're doing." Is that basically what you're telling me?
No. We hire a contractor because they are qualified and experienced and can do the job competently and on time.
How do we know these contractors -- or how do I know? Maybe you know. Can you how tell me how you know these contractors are competent and experienced?
Because we monitor their work on an ongoing basis. And if they weren't competent, we would know that by virtue of the 56 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 quality control that we do.
And in addition, this group built the City, built all four areas originally.
I'm saying in addition, CCG, they built the cable plant that's in existence now for the whole City, so that was one of the reason that we knew their competence.
Along that line, who is ICS? Could you tell me what they do for you? What does that stand for? Does anybody know? I think it's one of your subcontractors that takes converter boxes, so that's not construction.
Are they Philadelphia residents? Is the company from Philadelphia or do they come from Ohio or Texas?
I believe the company is in Wilmington. 57 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847
What about if I tell you 196 Quigley Boulevard, New Castle, Delaware, that's close. They clean and repair cable boxes. How about C-Pro, do you know what they do for you?
And do they do that in Philadelphia, do they do that in New Jersey, Ohio.
Can anybody here tell me? These are important questions to my constituents, and these are important questions to me. I mean, it seems to me you don't have a lot of answers for these questions.
Well, I can say that in the franchise we're proposing, we have some numbers of Philadelphia-based businesses that we're committing to adhere to, and we intend to do that. In terms of minority participation over the life of the franchise, we made some commitments there and we're tracking with those numbers. So those numbers have been a concern to us. I mean, those issues have 58 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 been a concern to us as well.
Do you know who is the main force behind that? Is there one man, a group?
Do you know if Cliff Eckles is an African-American male or a Chinese woman or do you know anything about him? Did you ever meet him?
How about if I told you Bob Barnet is probably a white guy doing the same business that you hire Cliff for, probably 59 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 undercutting Cliff, too.
Well, if we're trying to do the minority participation piece, which is a good thing on the surface and then we're undercutting our own guy -- how about if I told you Bob Barnett is maybe an employee of ICS. There's no business addresses on his invoice. He may be working under the table to cut the Philadelphia minority business laws.
Can you find out about all that stuff and give the answers to the Chairwoman?
Well, respectfully, our goal I guess, as your goal is, is to have minority participation, have women participation, to patronize businesses that are in the City of Philadelphia, not exclusively, but to the extent that we can. And when these proceedings are done, if you want to be a resource or if there's someone else that will be a resource or you can point to me who could be a resource, we're open to it. We've 60 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 just tapped into the MBUC as a source for certified minority and women-owned businesses. And we would welcome any input that we can get in that regard.
Can I go back to my business venture with Councilman Rizzo here for a minute? Please bear with me, Councilwoman, it's very important. CHAIRWOMAN CLARK: Councilman Mariano, just take all the time you want, within reason.
This is an imaginary business, because I know you're a millionaire already so it doesn't matter. This DC Wiring from New Jersey is a Greater Media subcontractor. Now, let's make this Frank Rizzo Wiring and I give Frank this business to do. Would I have to make sure that Frank's paying all the City wage taxes for employees, or I just wipe my hands? Does Greater Media do that? With DC Wiring, do you know if they're paying City wage taxes? Do you know if they have a business license 61 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847 in the City of Philadelphia?
We require that do adhere to all City, State, and Federal regulations.
Do you check up on that? Do they say, "Yeah, we're okay." Or do you say, "Let me see your business privilege license." Because my wife has a cookie store over the Bellevue. She has to display her business privilege license. And I know Councilman Rizzo, when I do my business with him or anybody else, I'm going to say, "Look, don't jam me up here, Councilman. Let me see your business privilege license and I want to make sure you're paying your employees the right wage," which around here would be the prevailing wage which the magic word I'm looking for is probably the union rate. Do you know that there's a union in this town that trains people for what you're hiring people to do, the same thing, that spends millions of dollars every year and trains people?
Your work force members are members of what union? 62 COM. ON PUBLC PROPERTY & PUBLIC WORKS-980847