Thank you. Good morning, everyone. My name is Frank DiCicco. I'm the chair of the Zoning Board
of Adjustment. We have a quorum. I'm officially calling this session to order. In attendance is
our vice chair, Ms. Carol Tenere, our board member, Mr. Thomas Holloman, and our board
secretary, Confessor Plaza, along with our city solicitor, Sharon Saleta. As you're probably
aware, today is our second day holding virtual hearings. While we may have to make adjustments
along the way. Our plan is to call each case and basically proceed as we would have in a live
hearing. We ask that attorneys for applicants or other interested parties identify themselves for
the record when the case you'll be participating is called. We will then hear the applicant's
presentation followed by any presentation by attorneys representing other parties,
interested parties and members of the public not represented by council will
be then be given an opportunity to testify. We will finally hear the
recommendation of the Planning Commission. At the hearing's conclusion
the board will either vote the matter immediately or hold it for discussion
in executive session. Any case held for discussion will be voted on at the
scheduled July 21st morning session. Pardon me. A couple of changes related
to the virtual format. First, we will be administering oaths to individual
individual participants prior to their testimony rather than to the room as a
whole since we do not have a room. Second, for the benefit of anyone
participating by phone, we ask that attorneys and witnesses identify
themselves prior to speaking, and we ask that you spell your first and last name
for the benefit of the stenographer. Third, we'd like to ask everyone that is
in this proceeding...
Thank you. Third, we'd like to advise everyone that this proceeding is being
recorded and that by participating you acknowledge your agreement to be recorded so um i think we're
let me make make sure i didn't leave anything out if anyone wishes to testify after um the the case
has been hurt during if anyone wishes to testify you have to raise your hand and step right am i
correct, Tondra? You're going to have to raise your hand. Yes, as soon as the case is called,
raise your hand if you wish to testify regarding this case so we can find you and allow you to
speak. And if I could add one more thing, as regards all that who attend the hearings via
telephone, we do have a number that you can call in and record your appearance statement.
The phone number for that is 267-270-5548. That number will now be populated on all posters.
So anytime you call in through the phone, please make sure at the end of the session,
you go to that number and record your information so we have you at with an apparent statement.
Thank you. And can I add one more thing too? Mr. Chairman, we have to acknowledge that Tanya
Sunkit is part of this. Okay, Tanya Sunkit is part of this. Well, no, I mean a little more
professional. All right, I also would ask those of you who are not speaking to make sure you're on
mute until you have to speak because sometimes we get feedback. Can I add one thing, Frank,
please? Yes. Just that if you are an attorney and you are presenting exhibits that you would
like to share on the screen, you will be permitted to share the screen and present them yourself
rather than going through the host. And before we begin, there is a continuance in the morning
list for calendar number 39643. 53 North 52nd Street will be continued. That date will be
given out by Tanya Sunkit. The continuance date will be provided by Tanya Sunkit. Am I correct,
tanya yes chair okay carol please call the first case
carol can you unmute yourself please
thank you thank you tanya calendar number 39229
Thank you.
Thank you, Tanya.
Calendar number 39229, 310 Moore Street.
The attorney is Henry Clinton.
Morning, Mr. Clinton.
Henry, are you there?
there he goes
chairman henry clinton here hey good morning henry uh do you swear and affirm to tell the
truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth no i also agree to waive the reading
of the refusal and stipulate to its accuracy.
Thank you.
Please proceed.
Mr. Clinton, do you agree to waive the reading of the refusal and stipulate?
Carol, he already said that.
He did?
Yes, he did.
You can ask him if you want.
I would love to have that question.
Do you know what?
Just put your name and address on the record, please.
Henry Clinton, 1313 South 33rd Street, Philadelphia PA, 19146.
With me is my client, Ben Song, to my right, which I hope you can see on the camera.
And he is, we're socially distancing, and he also has a mask on.
This project concerns 310 Moore Street.
It is currently an industrial warehouse.
It's been there for many, many years.
It's just west of Oriana Street, the 1800 block, which is a dead-end street.
This is a single-story warehouse.
It has three existing curb cuts and one large roll-top garage door.
It's about 4,000 square feet, and the proposal is to demolish the existing garage slash warehouse
and to build four single-family homes on the property.
Each home will have a garage,
and we are using two of the existing curb cuts,
one on Moore Street and one on Oriana Street,
and we're proposing one additional curb cut.
So it's an existing lot.
We're asking that it be subdivided into four,
and then we're building four single-family homes.
Each home will have a basement.
The first floor will have a garage and an office.
There will be a second, third, and fourth floor with a rooftop deck.
There's no issue with regard to height.
All the properties are under the 38 feet maximum height restriction.
I have submitted my evidence binder, which includes a table of contents, which has exhibits A1 through A12.
12. And in that packet, I don't want to go through a whole 12, but it has been previously
submitted. And at the end, I'm going to ask it to be submitted into evidence. The houses range in
width from 17 and a half to 19 feet, eight inches. The depths range from 30 feet to 38 feet.
There are rear yards on every property.
One or two are seven feet, several are nine feet, and unit four is 13 feet.
There's three bedrooms in each property, and the square footage of each property, each single-family home, is roughly about 3,000 square feet.
We did revise one plan, Z1, was a zoning plan to show that there is a means of egress from the rear of each of the properties.
so they basically created an alleyway so you can get out to Oriana Street from each of the
properties. There's an elevation attached as A10 to my packet, and you can see from the elevation
that each property has a front-loaded garage, nice brick scape on the front, and kind of fits
in with the neighborhood. This hearing was originally scheduled for March 18th. Prior to
that, we had met with the community group, which is Pennsport, in early January, around January 7th
or so. At that meeting, we presented the project, and there is a letter of support in the packet
at A8 from Pennsport to support the project because it's really getting rid of an eyesore,
And it is zoned, the area is zoned RSA 5. So the garage slash warehouse is in pre-existing non-conforming use. So our use will be conforming as these are all single family residences and all within the height requirement and with why.
and all within the height requirement and and with wise we also conform. So I can go through
the floor plans if anyone requires that. I have my client here with me I'm going to ask him
Mr. Song have you heard my testimony? If you had the opportunity to testify would you have
adopted as your own and as true and correct? Thank you Henry. Is there anyone else who wishes
to testify on this matter.
I'm delaying it a little bit because we need time
if someone else wants to get in.
So, all right, seeing none.
Yes, we do have a hand up.
Kim Ahn.
I just have a quick question.
Excuse me, your name again?
My name is Kimberly Ahn.
Kimberly, do you swear and affirm that your testimony
will be true?
I apologize.
I'm rusty you swear a firm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but
the truth yes thank you and spell your name for the stenographer please
Kimberly k-i-m-b-e-r-l-y last name on a is an apple H is in Henry and is a Nancy
okay please proceed I just have one question so I'm a property owner and I
have a garage on Oriana. So I just wanted to know when you guys are, if this gets approved and
there's construction, is the, like, are we still going to have access to our garages on Oriana?
Yes, definitely. This is Henry Clinton speaking. I just conferred with my client and the answer is
yes. I know that Oriana is a dead end street. I know that there's probably five or six full top
garages there and that question was also asked at the community meeting and we
agreed at the community meeting to provide full access because we
understand that there are many businesses in Oriana Street so the answer
is yes it might be helpful if your client would provide some of the
neighbors with a contact number in case they need to block it off or any
particular you know part of the construction period might be helpful we
we will do that. Thank you. Questions from the board. Planning Commission.
This property is indicated for residential use on the city plan. We have no objection.
Thank you. Thank you, Ron. Calendar number 39229310 Moore Street. My vote is yes.
with revised plans what i'm sorry with right was it one page yes with revised play page one
revised plan one page my vote is yes with proviso yes with proviso yes with proviso
Thank you. Thank you, Sharon.
Next case is calendar number 39227, 4828 Greenway.
Mr. Clinton, do you agree to waive and stip?
Yes, I do.
Name and address for the record, please.
Henry Clinton, 1313 South 3rd Street in the Queen Memorial Building, Philadelphia PA, 19146.
With me is my client, John Cassidy, who will testify.
Do you want us both to be sworn in?
Yes, please state your names for the record.
This is Henry Slinton.
I can't hear him.
Could you ask him to spell it?
It's C-A-S-S-I-D-Y, John.
John, do you swear and affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Henry. Please proceed.
Good morning again, Mr. Chairman and members of the board. Henry Clinton, on behalf of John
Cassidy, this property is 4828 Greenway. I have submitted my evidence binder, which includes
exhibits A1 through A12, which I ask to be admitted into evidence. I'm not going to go
through and list every item that is in the table of contents because it's
self-explanatory. By way of background, this property based on my research has
been vacant for at least 15 years and probably longer. It is in a RSA 3
residential zone which has prompted several refusals which I will get to. The
property is unique in that it's 20 by 80 so it's fairly wide and fairly deep but
in an RSA 3 zone that requires an eight-foot side yard it also requires
that requires an eight-foot side yard. It also requires off-street parking. If we conform with
Australia
RSA 3, our house would only be 12 feet wide, so since the lot is 20, and the off-street parking
would require a curb cut. I have aerial photographs attached to my exhibits, which indicate that
in this section of Greenway Avenue, there is no off-street parking, even though that whole area
is zoned RSA 3. So it's basically a physical impossibility to conform with RSA 3. However,
we are conforming with RSA 5 as our proposal is a single-family two-story home and all the homes
on that block are two-story to conform with what is on the block. It is again a single-family home
and if you look at the elevations which are attached as A12 you can see that we tried to
match the house next door which has a nice front porch with a little roof over the porch and then
it's a two-story structure with windows on the first and second floor. The house basically is
17 wide with a three-foot side yard instead of an eight-foot side yard and the depth is 49 feet
leaving an ample rear yard and actually there's even space in the front because when you walk up
to the home, it requires an approach of about 15 feet or so. So there's ample open space
in the front and in the rear. We did meet with Southwest Philadelphia District Services.
As the board may recall, this project was to be presented March 18th. The city went silent just
about March 16th or 17th. So our hearing never took place. We had met with the community group
in January, January 21st. At that meeting, we presented our original plan, and the community
feedback was that they did not want a roof deck, and they did not want a pilot house.
At that meeting, we agreed in writing to remove those two items from the plans. So the plans have
been revised, and there's three pages, and we have removed the rooftop deck, and we have removed the
pilot house. If you look at the elevation, you can see that it's sensitive to the
surrounding houses and does fit in with the neighborhood. I also have, obviously,
floor plans attached, aerial photographs attached. The aerial photographs, you
know, indicate that it's there's trees on the property and does conform to my
representation that it has been vacant for a minimum of 15 years. The floor plan
is pretty straightforward. I can go through that if the board wants me to. If not, I'm going to
ask my client if he adopts my testimony, and then I'll do a short summary. Tom, do you have any
questions regarding the floor plan? You have to unmute. No. No. Okay. Thank you. All right,
Mr. Henry. Mr. Cassidy, have you heard my testimony?
Did you hear his response? He said yes, he had.
If you had the opportunity to testify, would you adopt my testimony as your own and as true and correct?
So just in summary, this is a unique situation in an RSA 3 zone, which requires an eight-foot side yard.
It would be a physical impossibility to do that.
having off-street parking would not conform to the rest of the block. It would require a curb cut
and would further narrow the house, frankly, because we need more than eight feet for a
parking spot. So this plan does not alter the essential character of the neighborhood.
It really does conform to the other houses on the block. It is not detrimental to the public
welfare. And we do have the support of the community group with the two provisos in our
revised three-page plan, eliminating both the pilot house and the rooftop deck. And with that,
I rest. Thank you, Henry. Hi, Chair, Matt. I'll interrupt for a second. I noticed that there are
two phone callers in. If for some reason someone who calls in on the phone, now it's four,
please note in order to participate you have to raise your hand in order to do
that on a phone you must press star 9 and when you do that we can see that you
wish to participate and share as of right now we have a hand up from Andrew
Goodman who wishes to speak thank you Tanya good morning mr. Goodman please
identify yourself with a record. Can everybody hear me? I can hear you now, so please identify
I can hear you now, so please identify yourself with the record.
yourself with a record. Andrew.
Andrew Goodman, G-O-O-D-M-A-N, here representing 3rd District City Councilmember Jamie Gaudier, spelled G-A-U-T-H-I-E-R.
We're in a firm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Thank you, Andrew.
Please proceed.
We have some notes that I'll get into the record, but you probably can explain it better than I can.
so please proceed. Great, thank you. So our office requests that public testimony and board vote be
postponed until next week so that we have the opportunity to review the updated plans and
provide those. So Henry, were you aware of that? I was aware of the request, yes. Okay, so we had
the hearing. We'll leave the record open and resume the hearing on the 21st, Wednesday the 21st,
and take additional testimony, if necessary, prior to voting.
Does that work for everybody?
This is Henry Clinton. Yes, thank you, Chairman.
This is Henry Clinton. This is acceptable to us and to my client. Thank you, Andrew.
Okay, thank you. So we'll hold the vote until next Wednesday. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.
Thank you.
Anyone else, Tanya?
No one else has their hand raised.
you Carol called calendar number could the Planning Commission put on record
our recommendation for the last yes yeah so thank you this property is
indicated for residential use on the city plan given the law configuration
and proposal to match existing character of the block we have no objection to the
granting the variance based on the revised plan. Thank you. Thank you, Ron.
Thank you. Chairman, this is Henry Clinton again, and if the board looks kindly upon
this application, there are three pages of revisions. Okay, Sharon, do I need to
have that on the record now, or do we wait for the vote? We should wait for the
vote? Wait till the vote. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Henry. Thank you. Everybody
ready calendar number 392802031 washington avenue
frank you have to unmute yourself i thought we were going to do 615 1615 south broad first
because we expect a lot of witnesses
on Washington Avenue.
Do you know what?
I have nothing on that.
That was not on the hearing list
that Tanya sent me
and it also was on the website.
All right.
It's an old list.
I have the list I have.
This probably been dated.
All right.
Let's go to Washington Avenue.
So I'm waiting for David Orphanides.
Give me a minute to promote him.
Okay. Cutting down trees. Oh, you bet.
I don't... Okay, David, you can talk now. David, do you agree to waive the reading
of the refusal and stipulate to its accuracy? I do too. There's a corrected
notice of refusal and to that one I do. And that you should have that in your
exhibit book and hopefully in your materials as well. Thank you. Name and address for the record,
please. My name is David Orphanides from Orphanides in Toner, 2 Penn Center, 1500 John F. Kennedy
Boulevard, Suite 400, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 19102. And I'm appearing remotely via Zoom
before the City of Philadelphia Zoning Board this morning on behalf of Fortune Property, LLC,
which is the owner of 2031 to 35 Washington Avenue.
And David, do you swear and affirm to tell the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
And I have two witnesses with me today.
One is one of the owners of the property
with Fortune Property LLC.
And then Jenny Wan, who is the designer for the project.
So why don't we get them on the record?
I'll swear them in and that way we can proceed certainly do you have them there
we have jenny what's the other name uh chelsea huang
well let's let's go forward and when they're ready to if you when you want to put them on
well let's let's go forward and when they're right
the record we'll swear them in at that time i'm sorry can i interject again yeah um i do have a
hand raised by sean wellen sean are you here on behalf of this case as an attorney yes i am
Ms. Sunkit and welcome to everyone on the board. Okay. Could you hold one moment? I'm going to
promote you as a panelist. Okay. Okay. All right. David, we'll begin. Certainly. Again,
good morning. In terms I'm going to couple some housekeeping matters before I get started that
are indicated in the exhibit book. In exhibit one includes our photographs of the posting of the
hearing notice for today's hearing and the notice of refusal at the subject property both on the
Washington Street frontage and the Kimball Street frontage. This property
runs through from Washington Avenue through Kimball. It is a mid-block
property closer to 21st Street than the 20th Street, but there are two street
frontages with buildings to either side. So we posted both street frontages in
accordance with the requirements of the zoning code. Our tax clearance is included
at tab two. The current deed for the subject premises that indicates and confirms that
Fortune Property LLC is the owner of the property is included at tab three. If you, Sharon,
can you confirm that they have the, do they have the individual files or do they have the
small PDF four part version of the exhibit book? I did the four part as well
as the revised plans and the revised plans forms. Okay thank you. So for your
benefit we went through and for each of the PDFs we've indicated where those
exhibits are to assist you in that. So for exhibit one the photographs that's
at page one of that, what's called part two.
Our index of exhibits is part one.
Part two includes exhibits one through 15.
That's part two.
Part three includes exhibits 16 to 19,
and part four includes exhibits 20 to 23.
In terms of the photographs, that's at page one of part two.
The tax clearance is at page eight.
that's page 8 of the PDF. That is not page 8 of the document itself, but to
assist you in flipping through the PDF, the current deed is at page 10 of the
PDF. Exhibit number four, which is at page 16 of the PDF, if that helps you,
that is of arrow photographs of the subject premises and immediate
surrounding area and I think as you can see if you would be so kind as to flip
there you will see that this as I indicated the subject property is
located between Washington Avenue and Kimball Street Washington Avenue as you
can see from the plans that we have that were originally submitted as well as the
revised drawings that were submitted is it has an overall right away width of
100 feet with 79 foot wide cartway and then footways of 13 feet on the south
side and 8 feet on our side, the north side of Washington. Again, we are located
on the north side of Washington. Kimball Street, as you can see in the area on as
you can then for the details can see on our zoning drawings is only 30 as a 30
foot wide right-of-way. The breakdown is 8 foot wide footways on either side of a
14-foot wide cartway. There is parking on the south side, as you can see in the
aerial and also on our drawings and our presentation materials. There's on-street
parking on the south side of Kimball Street, our side. As you will see, there
is an existing curb cut on the Kimball Street side of our property. And there
There are two existing curb cuts on the Washington Avenue side of our property.
Right now, as you can see in the aerial as well, we have a building to the east of us, which is above our property in the first aerial that's shown, and then what we have is we have buildings then to the west of us.
Right now, as you can see in the aerial as well, we have a building.
To the rear of us, across on the north side of Kimball Street, are residential single-family homes.
To the west of us on our side are the backs of the non-industrial property or properties.
I think there are two of them there that kind of fit together in a jigsaw puzzle kind of way.
there is a then to the west of us or east of us as you can see right next to us there is a
non-residential use this is on both Kimball and Washington and then as you look to the east on
Kimball our side turns residential the north side remains fully residential and then as you can see
on Washington Avenue, we have non-residential extending to the east of us. Across is a mix of
commercial and industrial uses, including an auto body shop, caliber collision, and some other types
of uses which can be seen in our photographs. The second, third, and third page of our aerial
exhibits provide a 3D image not a bird's eye view as was the first aerial image of our property
and the surrounding area. You would see in the second aerial and also in the third aerial the
3D versions that to the west of us directly to the west of us on the west side of 21st Street
that's showing an existing structure. And then also then further the next block at the 2200 block
of Washington on the north side. Those lots have been cleared since the time of, I guess,
Google took this image. And as you'll see in my, we'll get into in my exhibit book,
at the end in the last part at tab 21 and 22, you will see that there are development projects.
There's a development project that's a 2200 block that's been approved by variants by this zoning board.
It is similarly zoned I-2 as our property for mixed residential and commercial use
and that you have a matter before you next week for 2101,
which is the property that takes up the block on the 2100 block of Washington on our north side.
David, excuse me for interrupting. I'm going to stop you for a minute. Sharon?
Yes, David, the documents and exhibits that you're referring to,
would it be possible to pull them up on the screen because there are other people in attendance?
Sure, sure. Let me see if I can do that, if I can share my screen, see if that...
Thank you.
see if this works so can everybody see and you see this I can see that yeah okay great so again
this is a PDF of just close that out reduce this so you have less clutter up here you can see Mr.
Whalen, Mr. DiCicco over there to the side. So this is for the benefit again.
Here's our property where I'm pointing my pointer right now. These are the
existing commercial uses or non-residential uses that are adjacent to
us to the east on Washington and the other ones that extend further to the
east on Washington. These are the residential uses on our side, basically
two doors down, residential uses across the whole block. And this is Kimball Street, Washington
Avenue, 21st Street. The two blocks that I was talking about to the west, this is 2101. That is
coming before you, I believe, next week. Mr. Whalen, I think, is representing that case.
And again, that is like our property, and I'll show you when we get to the zoning map in a couple
minutes is also zoned I-2. We'll also need variances for the only variance we
have left at this point, which I'll get into in a little bit, for a mixed-use
development project. And then down here at 2201, where you see existing building
as well, that's already been granted variances for, it's an I-2 property
that's been granted variance for a residential use, mixed-use there. And as
you can see on the south side of the property of south side of Washington
south side of Washington Avenue you have those in commercial, I mean non-residential uses.
Avenue, you have those in commercial, I mean, non-residential
This is a view from the north in 3D. Again, you have a better idea of the residences
that are to the east of us. Here's our property, you have a through property right here,
and then the residential properties start extending. The opposite side of Kimball Street
is all residential. Here you can see 2101, obviously an outdated picture. If you were
driving by there now, it's vacant. This has all been demolished. And again, that is coming
before the board next week for at least one of the, the only variance we have remaining today,
which we'll get into, is for the residential, proposed residential use here. And they will also
be that, looking for that variance as well as other variances. And that same residential variance
was was already granted at 2201. Exhibit 5 you can see is the zoning map showing the current zoning
of our block I2 with the residential RSA 5 to the east of us across the street RM1 at either end
of the east end of the block or either side and that's Kimball Street and then Washington Avenue
And here, again, you can see the current zoning being I-2 to the east of us, I-2 across the street, I-2 to the west of us, both sides of Washington, I-2 to 2200 block.
This, again, is the case that's before you next week, looking for residential variants as well as other variances.
And here you have 2201, which has already been granted a number of variances,
including the same residential variance that we're here for today.
I'm going to just real quickly in terms of that, and I think it's important right now,
and I need to see where that is.
I'm going to jump to tab 18 to kind of set the plate a little bit.
And these documents largely speak for themselves, but just to review them,
Exhibit 18 is in part three, and that is at page 16 of the PDF.
There are current plans and bills in place to change the zoning of the south side of Washington Avenue,
the 200 block to IRMX.
The 2035 plan for presently, and I think I don't want to speak for the Planning Commission,
And this is the ordinance changing the south side of the 2,000 block of Washington.
I'm just scrolling through that real quickly not to hold you up.
But it shows, and again, the Planning Commission will be able to speak to this about the change that's happening on Washington Avenue, I think, that we're all seeing evidence of.
And so here is a 2035 plan.
This is our property right here.
And it shows in the 2035 plan, it shows 2101 for industrial residential mixed use.
It shows 2201, which has already been granted a variance for residential use as ICMX, similar
to what ours is.
The pink is ICMX.
And then further to the west is ICMX.
Down here at 25th and south on the northwest corner, it's already been developed as a mixed
commercial development project.
So you have this in the 2035 plan, but I believe the planning commission will speak to that why this received ICMX versus IRMX and regarding their position as we understand it based upon our meetings with them regarding the proposed industrial residential proposed use here.
So that sets the table for the, for the, where the property is, what its current situation is, and what the, in terms of zoning and surrounding developments that seem to be in conformance with the 2035 plan or the Planning Commission's position regarding deviations there from.
um at tab here you have at tab six you have our application so there is an existing uh
industrial use it is a is a use that is run by the owners of the property so they use their own
property um it's used for uh marble granite countertop kitchen showrooms a showroom and
showrooms, a showroom and manufacturing, some light manufacturing and fabrication there,
manufacturing, some light manufacturing.
storage of materials and the like. The original application was to, those two stories occupy
100% of the lot. The original application was to add five stories on top of the existing two stories
for use in that five-story addition as 37 residential dwelling units. There were to be
15 accessory parking spaces accessed from, and as you can see here at tab seven, the original plan
had parking coming in from Washington Avenue through one of the existing curb cuts.
One of the other existing curb cut is right here that is to be filled to allow for an additional
on-street parking space, but it was one way to access the 15 off-street parking spaces
and then exiting on the Kimball Street.
Kimball Street is one-way headed west.
And here's the zoning drawing showing the five-story addition,
a pilot house on top of the seven-floor roof.
That would be a total seven floors.
A deck at the back of the, on top of the existing two-story portion with the pilot house,
a deck at the third floor, balconies throughout on either side.
deck at the front of the sixth floor with the balcony at the front of the
seventh, the front being Washington Avenue. The original refusals that were
cited and which is why I asked about the memo of correction as well, there were
some mischaracterizations regarding what was being proposed. The number of parking
spaces were misstated down in a refusal, but the refusals initially were because
is zoned I-2. You have, I-2 does not permit residential use, so we had a
refusal for the additional 37 dwelling units. The FAR for I-2 is 500, we were at 544.
They wrote us up for refusal for a minimum number of accessible spaces. They
were saying two was required and we only provided one, and they had the required
parking for 37 dwelling units. It's a one to two parking requirement, one
space for every two units, and they misstated that we only had a team where
you can see up here in the project description the accurate depiction of 15.
I contacted the examiner. You can see the emails attached, my communications with
the examiner regarding the refusal, and you should now have a corrected refusal.
tab 9 shows our appeal, but at tab 10 you have the memo of correct date of
January 27, 2020, which makes the corrections, eliminates the refusal for
accessible parking, corrects the number of proposed parking spaces to 15, and the
corrected notice of refusal so we had originally had a as corrected we had a
use refusal for the residential uses and we had a FAR refusal and a required
parking refusal I will say that through the meetings we had with SOSNA which is
we had an architectural review committee meeting to community group meetings with
the Kimball Street neighbors them directly a lot of communication back and
forth via email we came up with revised drawings a revised design that has been
presented to the board presently that reduces the far we lopped off the seventh
floor so it's now a four-story addition on top of an existing two-story and you
can see it here in profile. We've reduced the number of dwelling units, excuse me,
to 30, maintaining the 15 off-street parking spaces. We have still one-way
drive, so we've now eliminated the parking refusal. There is no longer a
parking refusal. We have one to two parking as required in I-2 for
industrial or for residential uses. By reducing the FAR to 463 or below five,
at least in any regard below 500 we now have eliminated the FAR refusal. The only
thing that's left is the refusal for use, the proposed residential use, and as I've
indicated and is provided in my exhibit book, the next block up is
coming in for a variance for residential use. Two blocks up has already been
approved. 25th and Washington already has a residential mixed-use project
already almost in construction up there so we've made we made major revisions
you can see in the in the revised plan form if you give me a minute I can pull
If you give me a minute, I can pull that up. If you would take a look at that, that was submitted to the board.
that up if you would take a
You can see the list of changes, significant changes we made with community input.
But there were other non-zoning.
These are just the zoning, what I thought were mostly zoning-related changes to the project to accommodate community input.
There were some other things that were done regarding facade treatments, providing vegetative screening on the rear roof deck that we moved at the request of the community group.
One of the things that came up during a community group meeting is that originally we had, as you
would see by the original plan, the back of our building was only two stories and there was a
deck on top of that. The neighbors across Kimball Street had a concern about people on a roof deck
looking into their third floor bedroom windows or room windows. So we raised the roof height to 38
feet, which is the height that's permitted in RSA 5, which is what's across the
street and further to the east of us. I2 obviously doesn't have a height limit.
Occupied area can be a hundred percent, we're just limited by far. So you could
have a building 500 that occupies a hundred percent of the lot, that's five
stories tall, with no limit on the floor-to-ceiling height. It could be 20
foot floor to ceilings for five floors would be a hundred foot tall building
occupying a hundred percent of the lot. It could be modified in other ways that
500 percent could be spread, 500 FAR could be spread out in different ways and you
can have a building that's much taller at a portion of the property as long
again as the overall FAR is not above 500 percent. And then as you can see from
the original design to now, we then based upon community input we layered Kate, the
back of the building to reduce the shadowing of this building to minimize
the impact on the residents of Kimball Street. There is some existing, one of the
things per the community group, there's some existing signage on the front of
the building. We eliminated quite a bit of it, maintained a projecting sign, one
of the awning signs, and then added a matching awning sign on the opposite
side. So here you can see new signage, existing signage, and that is all in compliance with the
I-2 requirements. Again, you can see Washington Avenue at 100 feet right away, 79 foot cartway,
and then Kimball Street. During the course of our community group meetings, one of the
things we were caught between a bit of a rock and a hard place during the process,
what do we do with the parking? Parking's required. Do we provide less than the required I-2? Do we
provide the amount that's required? Do we provide more than what's required? What we chose to do is
to reduce the number of the density of the building in terms of both the number of floors,
the FAR, and the number of residential dwelling units. We played around with coming in from
Kimball and out on Washington. I mean, ultimately, the residents on Kimball Street were the ones who
were going to be most impacted coming out on the Kimball Street. And their request was that we come
in. Surprisingly, I had originally changed the design when we first went to Saucon to come in
on Kimball from the east coming in and out on Washington, out of concern for lights at night
coming out of the back and shining into the buildings across the street. When we met with
the Kimball Street neighbors, they actually wanted us to go back to the original one-way route, which
was in from Washington, out from Kimball. The reasoning being is that there'll be less traffic
on Kimball Street this way. We come out, we have mostly, as you saw in the trails, we have non-residential
on the south side of Kimball Street to the west of us, and then just only maybe a quarter of the
block or less to the west of us of residences on the north side. So to reduce the impact
upon Kimball Street, they wanted us coming out and heading west on Kimball Street and coming
in, driving down the whole length of Kimball Street, 20th Street to come in and out on
Washington. We also explored coming in and out of Washington with two-way, in and out of Kimball
with two-way. The problem with coming in and out of Kimball with two-way is, I think, is what I
just described to you, would be the additional traffic coming from the east down Kimball Street
that the neighbors did not want. There was a request to reduce or eliminate curb cuts.
There was a request to reduce or eliminate curb cuts, and you're going to hear from Mr. Whalen about that, on Washington Avenue.
We do still have an industrial use here.
We do still have trucks that come.
You can see in the interior photos that I have in my exhibit book.
It's an ongoing industrial use here.
with the width of Kimball Street the cartway only being 14 feet with parking
on one side there is no way physically possible to it's barely wide enough to
get a car down let alone a van or a panel truck or a bigger truck so we need
to maintain some type of parking off of Washington Avenue to serve the existing
residential use and then also as described it was a request of the
neighbors on Kimball Street. So major modifications to the design, both
address and reduce the variances that were originally cited, eliminate some,
drop us down to one, and then also a laundry list of things that we've done
to address points that were raised by the neighbors, by the participants in the
community group meeting. As indicated, we had two meetings with the community
group, one meeting, at least one physical in-person meeting with the residents of
Kimball Street. I had requested a copy of, since our last meeting with SOSTA and
originally at the time of our originally scheduled hearing before the board in
March, I had requested a copy of SOSTA's position letter in this case and
unfortunately it was not provided to us until just Thursday so we weren't fully
able to address any additional comments that they raised in that letter with so
little time for our submission deadline with that being said for now I'm gonna
with the board like me to have the design professional walk you through the
layout of the interior pretty much speaks for itself. One of the things we
did was relocate the bicycle parking, put it for easy access off of Kimball, see
the parking, the two industrial uses to either side, trash storage, mixed
industrial and residential use above, and then residential uses extending on the
upper floors. It's the intentions of the owners of the property to occupy the
upper, the top floor, the unit that's located at the top of the building themselves with their
family. So they will work and live in the same building that's presently being proposed. But
would you like a little more detail from the designer in terms of the floor plans? I have a
question, David, as it relates to the existing business that will continue, the marble tile
manufacturing of uh whatever it is they do uh countertops or whatever how do you is there an
exhaust system or something that's going to be i mean when you're cutting marble and tile
in addition to the noise right it does create a lot of pollutants how's that being addressed
so that would be properly i mean it would have to be if it's not already it would be properly
exhausted. And that would be something that would be designed during the construction phase.
My understanding is that the lion's share of the fabrication is done off-site, that there is
storage of the slabs, as you can see, and the materials on-site, as you can see in my interior
photos which are at tab let's see a tab 15 but and Chelsea Chelsea can you are
you on the are you on she on yet she said she can't I'm hearing that she can't
be heard you sure she's unmuted does she have her hand up did she raise her hand can she have her
raise her hand please sorry about that is she on the phone she's on the she's on the line
she should be on that she's she's on the video chelsea h-u-a-n-g
is it telephone only can you check the phones i'm sorry she was having problems getting long
she may not be able to um and i provided her number so is her last name h-u-a-n-g yes tanya
okay we don't have a chelsea um so if that's the person that's the person yes they can unmute
themselves and speak. But I think they might just be phoning in. Is that also
is that also something with the phone I think she was having problems with the
something with the phone? I think she was having problems with the video.
video well we'll move on and we can get back to that if any board members have
any questions about the interior any any issues were concerning the design
tom are you speak trying to speak if you are here
tom yes i have a question in reference to frank question um i'm assuming that
the counselor is saying that the cutting of some work will be done off-site?
Yeah, I can, I mean, I'll need Chelsea to get on, my client to get on the line to adopt my
statements, but in my conversations with her, it's that the main share of the fabrication is
not done on-site, and it is done elsewhere. I think that there is some fabrication that might
be done there but it's not the lion's share of it if much at all but again I
need her to get on the phone yeah I'd like some clarity on that
there is if there is a one-site fabrication there should be a location
on the floor plans showing where that would take place
yes correct i mean right now we're just showing it you know the general areas where
where these showroom upstairs and then this is the area right now that's being used um
chelsea are you on yes yes okay great can you please speak to about the fabrication that takes
place now and what the plan is for the fabrication moving forward i need her to identify herself
Oh, she needs to be sworn to. I'm sorry. Yep. Yep. Yeah. My name is a child in one.
You swear and affirm or send a firm to, excuse me,
do you swear and affirm the testimony you give today is true to the best of your
ability? Yes. And just real quickly, Chelsea, um, you go by Chelsea, correct?
Yes. Okay. Chelsea, um, you're one of the owners of the property in question.
yes and are you also the owner of the business that presently one of the the owner or one of
the owners of the business the top business that presently operates at the property yes okay and
you i don't know i'm not sure if before you were able unmuted if you heard the questions the
questions have to do with the extent of fabrication that happens presently and the plan of the plan
for on-site fabrication and where that would take place um if this project is approved
yeah we we're doing the fabrication on the uh um the bed of the building presently
don't fabrication
you're cutting tile and cutting marble yeah we're cutting countertop countertop marble stone things
Granite, yes.
Right, on-premises.
And is that what you're proposing to continue to do?
Where there is, again, I don't see it, David, maybe it could be helpful.
Where in the plan does it show where that work will take place?
And what do you do about noise and air pollution?
Exhaust systems or whatever.
Chelsea, right now you have the showroom shown at the second floor front.
And then you have this area down here that's shown also for that unit.
Is this the area where the fabrication would take place?
Right now, just the showroom area that we see showing.
On the upper floor, but on the ground floor is below that where your showroom is right now.
Is that where you would plan on doing fabrication if this project is approved?
No, not on the showroom area.
we right now we're doing that for vacation in the bed of the building where
the parking area is yes you know I'm going to show I'm going to show them
pictures hold on one second 15 sorry but so there's the question of now
here we go. So this is the back. So coming in, Chelsea, can you, this is the view from
inside towards the front. This is the front of Washington Avenue at the bottom of page
five, correct Chelsea? Correct. And as you, this is looking in from the front at the
Correct.
And as you, this is looking in from the front at the top of page six, where it says first ground floor.
That is, you can see that's from the front looking towards the rear, correct?
And then this is the area back here that you're talking about, which is towards the rear, middle and rear, where the fabrication is taking place presently, correct?
Yes, correct.
You can see on page 9 of the exhibit book, the slabs that are there, okay?
So the question again, Chelsea, that the board is asking is that when you
look at the floor plan that we have right now. As of right now, if we get
approval on this we not do the fabrication on the on this site on this
side will move the application to different location and we're just
keeping the showroom area and it'll be just showroom and display no
manufacturing no cutting of marble granite or anything yes yes correct so we
could agree we could agree to if there if this appeal is approved or granted if
is granted by the board we would be agreeable to approach though to modify the application
that there not be any fabric on-site manual fabrication or manufacturing yeah just that
we are limited to sales and display of materials right again storage but no no fabrication right
no fabrication okay um do you have any more on that
I like that
Currently yes
Can you hear me
I can agree with that
I heard you
I didn't hear what was that
I'm sorry
Repeat that for Dave please
Yes, I can agree to a proviso, no fabrication on the site.
And again, Jenny Wan is on the phone and she can answer any other questions that go.
I don't want to belabor the point.
I think it's a pretty well-documented floor plan that lays out where everything is and where the units are.
And David, I'm sorry, this is Tanya.
Can we have your client spell her name for all parties?
Oh, thank you.
Chelsea, please spell your first and last name for the recording and for the recorder.
My name is Chiaozhen Huang, spelled as a Q-I-A-O-Z, as a zebra, H-E-N, last name H-U-A-N-G.
So it's as it appears on the Zoom call display, correct?
to the stenographer were you able to get that
well we'll assume she got it at the moment if not we'll address that david are you uh
have you completed your uh portion not not quite yet okay i'm not rushing it no i understand so
Do you swear for them to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Please spell your name for the stenographer.
My name is Jenny Wan, J-E-N-N-Y, last name W-A-N.
Jenny, that's how your name appears on the Zoom.
The spelling appears on the Zoom window is the correct spelling.
I can't see my screen, but I believe so.
Thank you.
And, Jenny, you prepared the original submission drawings, correct?
You're going to have to speak up a little.
I'm actually having problems here.
I don't know about everybody else.
Okay, thank you.
And you prepared the revised zoning drawings in the floor plans that were just presented to the zoning board, correct?
And at exhibit 13 of the exhibit book, which is page 59 of part 2, is the PDF, you also prepared shadow studies, or shadow studies prepared, comparing our proposed revised design to a buy-write I-2 design at the subject property, correct?
And that by right design that you show in terms of the shadowing of the building. Now, granted, all of our dimensional variances have been eliminated.
So we no longer have a far refusal. So we're really just talking about use. But real quickly, in terms of the by right industrial building, what was the height of that building that you use
original or no the by right proposed design that you have let's say at the lower part of your
exhibit books where it's just a box you have a far of 500 so it's a five five story building
but how many how tall is it 60 feet 65 feet
give me a second
we are 68 feet to the roof and it's and it's and it's true that the building because it's i2 is
only limited by far that there's no limit to the floor to ceiling heights as long as there's no
more than five full floors and it could be taller than that it could be 20 foot floor to ceiling
heights and it could be 100 feet tall building correct yes okay and but we you kept it to a
reasonable floor to ceiling height when you prepared this similar to the floor
and ceiling heights of the proposed building, correct? Yes. Okay. And just so
we know, and you can see that in the revised proviso plan forum that I showed
to the board, that originally the height of the building that the seven-story
building that you designed was 79 feet eight inches tall to the primary roof
and 89 feet eight inches tall to the top of the pilot house roof. And we've now
reduce the overall height of the structure to six stories and 68 feet in height, correct?
Sorry, let me just get back to that. In terms of the shadowing studies, what is your conclusion
regarding the, what do the shadow studies show in terms of comparing our revised design
um per the request of the community and the neighbors versus a by right limited floor to
ceiling height industrial use is the shadowing greater pretty much the same can you go through
the differences if any um well it's less shadowing after we set the building with the setback
and if you could see that design A is what we designed and then design B is if the building was
straight up instead of having any setback and you could see that on at 12 o'clock that would be the
clear. So here's the shadowing on Kimball Street with our proposed design and the by right
reasonable floor-to-ceiling height industrial is shown here so the by right industrial is a little
bit more into the opposite side. I think if everybody looks at the other shadows and compares
them, they're relatively similar or don't impact Kimball Street. And then in terms of the building
here, I think again, I mean, Jenny, here, is this the shadowing of the building on the Kimball
Street properties with the revised design? And I'm now showing design A, 12 p.m. Yeah, this is the
Okay, this is the winter, December 21st.
Yes, so the sun is lower. So that's why I case like the shadows.
Right. But this is what I'm circling right now, which is the dark portions of the buildings.
The buildings are all white, but there's a darker portion. And what I'm circling right now is the shadowing directly across the street and the lower portion.
and the lower portion on the south facing fronts of the building directly across the streets from
on the fronts of the southeast
us with our proposed revised design, correct? Yes. And then what I'm circling here is showing
whereas in the proposed design at 12 p.m., that shadowing only extends across the portion of the
roofs of the buildings across the street, but the by-right, again, not as tall as it could be,
but the shadowing extends completely over the roofs, correct? Yes. Okay, and that's design B
at 12 p.m., correct? Yes. And similar at 3 p.m., we see the shadowing with design A,
the revised design at 3 p.m. above. You see some portions of buildings that are
completely shadowed, some that are not, and all of those buildings are now
shadowed below with the by right I-2 building, correct? Yes.
And these are just different angles. The first two sheets are from the southwest,
correct yes and the second two sheets are from the southeast correct yes and
your conclusions are the same regarding the shadowing that generally that well
not generally that the by right i2 building shadows more than our building
correct yes okay thank you again just real quickly for the board normally I'd
have exhibits held up. This is the existing building, the existing signage, flat wall sign,
awning sign, protecting sign. This sign here is to be removed. This sign here is to be removed.
A similar awning as you see to the left. It says Philly Home Supply is to be placed over the
right-hand showroom window. Again, I'm circling the smaller square sign over the garage door
opening that's being removed it says quartz countertop and I'm circling the
Philly home supply the longer rectangular sign over the eastern side
of the building is being removed the projecting sign will remain this is our
existing buildings here you have one curb cut here right in front of the
garage door opening and then on the eastern side of the building another
existing curb cut that garage opening has been already sealed with storefront
glass but this proposal i mean people may park there already because it doesn't look like
anybody's going to be driving in and out but this proposal will fill in that curb cut on the east
side in front of where the philly home supply sign is and that will be fully restored to available
on street parking so the property to the east of us or to the west of us it long existing curb cut
the lion's share of the property, cell tower right behind us. This is that scene at the top of page
two of the photo exhibit. You'll see that property to the west of us, and then it turns into a
structure, that two-story structure that extends all the way up to Washington Avenue and over to
21st Street. That building is used at least in part as a drug and as a rehabilitation facility.
Bottom of page two is a view to the west on our side, the north side of Washington Avenue.
Top of page three is, and the bottom of page three is a 2101 site that has been cleared, that is coming before you next week.
Again, and Mr. Whelan can surely speak to that because I believe he's presenting that case.
That does include a residential, amongst other variance requests, I believe does require a residential use variance.
The bottom of page four is the residential development project at 25th and Washington on the northwest corner that I referenced.
That's pretty far along in construction and has indicated in the 2035 plan.
This was originally slated in the 2035 plan as ICMX, not IRMX.
And even in any event, it looks like it's no industrial at all, and it looks like it's residential and commercial.
South side of Washington to the west, again, non-residential uses, curb cuts up and down the block.
This is Caliber, which is on the west end of the south side of the 2000 block.
You see a large curb cut.
Curb cuts, garage doors across the street.
This is at the top of page six.
And then extending to the east, again, non-residential curb cuts with large garage doors interspersed on the south side of the block.
This is further, this photo top of the page.
This is further, this photo top of page seven, the top is further to the east on the south side until you can see until all the way you get, I think the board's familiar, plenty familiar with Washington Avenue, until you get down to the Marine Club, which I'm circling, which is a large tan structure, taller tan structure, all the way at the far end of the photograph.
It's all non-residential, playgrounds, commercial, until you get to residential to the end.
The bottom of page seven is a view to the east on the north side, largely non-residential, commercial, industrial.
And then the target building that was, I think, Lincoln Square that was developed on the northwest corner of Broad and Washington.
that zoning class had been changed for that property.
It's not zoned industrial, it's zoned CMX.
And then closer views.
This is the rest of our block of the 20-hundred block of Washington Avenue on page eight.
Again, you can see curb cuts up and down the block.
On our side, garage doors, restaurant.
This is the property right next to us.
That building itself has a curb cut and a roll-up garage door.
and a restaurant which is obviously a non-industrial use even though the properties are
industrial and here are those two at the top of page nine are two existing curb cuts
this is the building the two-story building at the northeast corner this is the bottom photograph of
page nine um it is um you know as i indicated it's two-story building and um
and utilized. If you were to zoom in, there's a, I believe, a Jefferson sign on the door.
This is that building on the east side of 21st Street, showing the non-residential use,
parking, curb cuts, parking lot. This is a southeast corner of 21st and Kimball. Cell tower,
non-residential use in the top photograph. The view from 21st Street, showing Kimball Street
heading towards 20th Street. As you can see, as I've stated, parking on the south side of the
street, very narrow cartway, difficult, pretty difficult for cars to get down, and pretty much,
as you can see, physically very difficult, if not impossible, for anything larger than a car,
wider than a car to get down. Page 12, the top, you see the adjacent property to the west of us,
stone wall masonry wall and this is the back of our building at the bottom of page 12 existing
roll up to work that's presently there blocked up windows original design had the window
configuration at a different different way the community asked that we simply open up
these existing openings and restore them with some type of window glazing and we agreed to
make that change the existing roll up door which would be our proposed exit on the kimball street
the existing curb cut at Kimball Street and this is that's on page 13 page 14
shows the top shows the back of our building and then the photograph 14 15
and 16 show the properties to the east of us where again I mentioned earlier
zone residential use for residential use and starting at page 17 you see the
north side of the 20-hundred block at Kimball, residential. Bottom of 17 of
some properties located directly across the street, again, that I was concerned
about regarding the direction of travel, but the request from those neighbors was
that we come out on the Kimball and then head west on Kimball. It was also
these neighbors that largely asked, you can see at page 18, that we raise the
height of the rear of the building to what would be compliant in RSA 5, which
is 38 feet and put the deck up at that level off the back of the fourth floor
rather than out the back of the third floor at their third floor level. We've
already gone through exhibit 15 which is the interior photos if the board would
the board like to see anything more regarding the interior of the property
otherwise I'd leave it to you to review them at your own just showing the ground
floor industrial use the parking that's in the rear that they use right now the
showroom that they presently have on the ground floor and then the offices and
whatnot that they have upstairs is there any need for me to go through that any
further anyone else anyone have any questions any board member have any
questions so far? No, it's not necessary. And again, I'm sorry if I'm belaboring this.
no okay and again I'm sorry if I'm belaboring this it's just a slightly
different situation because of the president's presence of represented
the rest of the parties so I've already gone through 2035 and the Planning
Commission can speak for that I took the liberty of including the industrial
district dimensional table at tab 16 I think there's going to be some
questions that will be raised later on regarding whether or not the property if it were remapped
to irmx which would allow for the residential use we're proposing whether it complies as it's
been revised with those requirements and i have them here for the board to take a look at we may
be discussing those down the road either in my closing or my cross-examination the use is allowed
an industrial district, obviously showing that multifamily is not. This is on, again,
on exhibit 17 now, has to do with the uses in industrial district. And then I've
also included the parking requirements from 14801 in this exhibit. In case
there's any, I believe there may be some questions regarding, it shows the one to
do parking for the residential use so then there are maybe some questions
regarding whether or not we've questions regarding the refusal and whether or not
we've satisfied some of those requirements and I provide that for
everybody's benefit so that we can refer to that as any of those objections are
raised there are allowances for certain adjustments to the requirements that are
i can't say but it gives the gist of a lot of residential units here at the time of the cdr
submission it was 256 apartments with 120 underground parking units i will say that
their parking both for you'll see after this the zoning archives for 2201 they are accessing their
off-street parking from the numbered streets not from washington avenue which is not a zoning issue
or zoning matter, but you can see from their own exhibits that 21st Street and 22nd Street
are much wider, 20 feet wider, than what Kimball Street is. This is from their own, and I'm looking
at, I think it's, excuse me, one second, joining page five of the CDR submission.
Again, showing the I2 mapping that they have presently for those parcels on page 5 of their CDR submission.
This, I was very curious about page 8 of their CDR submission because it seems to show 22 in the upper right-hand corner.
It seems to show 2201, which I'm circling, which is the larger square, and 2201, which is a smaller rectangle, as being shown in what I'm assuming is, as I showed earlier, was the non-industrial.
they're showing as being the non-industrial color, IRMX, whereas, again, our version of the 2035
plan that we pulled shows that it's being, one of them being IRMX, the larger one, and the smaller
2201 being ICMX. But what's also interesting is they show our parcel in red as CMX3, which would
be fantastic because it would, you know, except for the industrial use, but which would be
grandfathered but even our residential use will be permitted but this is contrary to the 2035 plan
i don't know if this is the 2035 plan or where this is from but it's not the 20 version of the
2035 plan for the central district that we pulled so um they might want to explain that but this is
the nature of their development project at that time again showing the number the number of the
size not much different than what we're looking at in terms of our building in
terms of height and here's 2201 again residential and commercial mixed use
same variances that we need I mean they needed at least the variance and then
just flying through and we again provided this more so you can see the
how Washington Avenue is changing, what the plans for it are, what you've already
approved, what's coming to you for approval, which is less, which is more
dense, more residential units than what we're proposing by far. And then at the,
here you have some renderings of what they're looking to do. So I leave that to you all look
at we can maybe get back into that on cross-examination
as well exhibit 22 shows the approval and i apologize for the resolution of
the plans um i can't provide email i'm not sure
if this is out of turn just a little bit but i will
stipulate to the fact that what mr overnees is
showing are documents relating to two projects that don't
relate to today's presentation uh you will hear about them
at length next week one of them is also what you previously approved um you know again i'm happy
to stipulate that they are what they are thank you and i can answer any questions that the board
might have that in some way relate to those projects uh during my presentation but i would
object to continuing in this path now thank you appreciate that the only thing i would change is
that obviously we think it's relevant whether it's in terms of a value view argument or otherwise
is because it's changing it's asking for similar variances as we are asking here we know every
property stands on its own there's no such thing as precedent however it is changing the scope and
nature of what washington apple is um just like the existing zoning classification and what might
be proposed at the 2035 plan and then my last exhibit that we have here is the um showing all
these different on our block of Washington Avenue and that's exhibit 23 23 are two existing one of
which is going to be filled and then all the other existing curb cuts that there are a lot of them
on Washington Avenue with that I apologize for how long I went on oh this is interesting so down
Down at the southeast, southeast corner, one last thing, up 20th in Washington at the
at the southeast corner, one last thing, up 20th in Washington.
end of our east end of our block across the street are the offices of OCF Realty.
They are in a building itself that has a curb cut on Washington Avenue. So and
that just to show you that this curb cuts extend, continue to extend to the east and as
you know I think the board is familiar with Washington Avenue from the full
length of Washington Avenue from river to river. I would ask that Chelsea, I'd
like to have them to adopt my statements again. I've tried to speed this along as
much as possible. I appreciate that rather than me going through and asking my
clients all these. But Chelsea, did you hear my statements today? Yes. And are they
too inaccurate to the best of your knowledge? Yes. Would you adopt them as
your own yes is there anything about them that you would change or correct uh no very good
and jenny did you hear my statements that i made to the board
yes and are they true and accurate to the best of your knowledge yes would you adopt them as your
own yes and are there any is there anything you would like to add um to supplement what i stated
about anything any of my statements or change correct i have nothing to add okay and i just
reserved the right to call both of my either or both of my witnesses on on rebuttal but with that
i conclude my my case in chief okay um stenographer i think we might want to take a five or ten minute
break uh because i suspect that the uh rebuttal is going to be somewhat lengthy and i understand
And I don't know if you have a head count yet, Tanya, but give us a sense of how many people are going to be testifying.
So, currently, I see that there are about eight hands up thus far.
All right.
Chairman Chico, I apologize, Ms. Sunkit.
I apologize, Ms. Sunkett, for interrupting you.
I thought you were done.
Chairman DiCicco, just to help you out,
I would guess that my presentation will be a maximum of 10 minutes.
Before my presentation, I do have just a handful of questions.
I'll try to keep them as narrowly tailored as possible for Chelsea,
and I apologize.
I missed Chelsea's last name, and Jenny, and I missed her last name as well.
on our behalf
Horry Fybush will be testifying
and so will Jose Hernandez
and then I am told
that there are a number of other
individual residents
who would like to testify on their own behalf
so with that
can we take a five minute break
I suspect the
sonographer would like to have a break
does that work?
be back in five minutes everyone?
yeah it's true thank you sounds good great job
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
We're waiting for Carol.
When Carol gets back in, we'll proceed.
I'm back with coffee.
All right.
Sorry for having me up.
No, no, no, no.
We're just getting started anyway.
Everybody's ready?
Tanya?
Tanya?
Yes, Chair.
Ready.
All right.
Mr. Whalen, before we begin, well, state your name and, you know, identify yourself.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman and the board.
Sean Whalen, Vintage Law, 6 Coulter Avenue, Suite 1000, Ardmore, PA, 19003.
I'm representing today Ori Fibush as the president and owner of OCF Realty, which is on the block,
and as one of the representative owners of 2101 Washington Avenue, which you just heard about at length.
If I may...
Before you begin, I'm not sure if I swore you in that you get sworn in.
You swear a firm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Yes, I do.
and before you begin if you have any questions for the appellant's witnesses you can begin with
those if that works for you thank you very much i know we're all kind of muddling through here in
the beginning this is a little bit out of order but david mr orfinetes if you don't mind i would
like to ask a few questions i think most appropriately directed to chelsea i believe
your last name is Hwang. I apologize if I said that wrong. So if I could ask Ms. Hwang a few
questions, I'll try to keep it brief. I don't have any objection to that, Sean. Please. Okay.
Muddle through, as you said. Kind of like normal procedure and whatnot being relaxed. Act 15 says
we can relax procedure. So yeah, let's just try to get everything out there, all the cards on the
table so okay so miss Wang you testified that you're going to continue the
industrial use but you're willing to give up the manufacturing at the use
correct she's muted Chelsea you have to unmute
miss Wang would you like me to re-ask the question there you go oh yes please
a repeated question because i just stepped out oh no problem at all uh so i just want to confirm
you testified that you're going to continue the industrial use uh but you're willing to give up
the manufacturing portion of that use uh if approved today correct correct okay um now this
is currently uh in your current business um vehicles access the first floor of your business
is that correct yes okay uh do customers access that floor uh right now a lot of time we don't
uh we're not letting only customer come in to unload loading the material
okay so a vendor may come in to drop off could i could i i'm sorry to interrupt but
i'd like some clarity your question is you'll continue the industrial use
I'd like some clarity. Your question is, you'll continue the industrial use.
So my question is for the lawyers. If sales and display of the material is all that's going to take place there, is that still considered industrial?
No, this is exactly my first question.
Okay, that's right. I think we get to what needs to be a new refusal, because the application refusal specifically addresses existing quote manufacturing of granite countertop and associated warehouse space.
I'm not trying to jam up Mr. Orphanides on this. You know, that can get cleaned up however it needs to be. That's not the thrust of my my opposition today. So, all right.
And just, if I can interject, I think, you know, we, there were a number of things that were described. And if through the process, something, it'd be one thing if we were adding something in that might, even if it was by right, and then I would say, okay, you know what, we'll come back and we'll add that by right industrial use later.
But we had a list of industrial type uses, and we are now removing that, just like eliminating
a barrier. I don't, I mean, some people might argue that we should, every time we make a change that
eliminates a refusal, that we should get a new, we should do an amended application and get a new
refusal so everybody knows exactly what they're talking about. It's not how the process works. So
generally, as long as I'm taking something away, which it sounds like we have an agreement that
we were going to reduce the extent of the industrial use, then I don't think, I disagree
that there's a need for a new application or a different refusal because we're just removing,
just like we reduced the number of residential dwelling units from 37 to 30. With that being said,
can I just say one thing? With that being said, I think it's still an industrial use because
I'm not sure it's building supplies and I'm not sure that even though building services,
building services is commercial. I'm not sure that it still doesn't because it's building
supplies that it still doesn't fall within an industrial type of use.
Wouldn't the proviso that speaks to no manufacturing address that issue?
I think it addresses that industrial aspect of the application. I can't say right now that I
necessarily agree that anything that's remaining is still not industrial which is why i would just
rather leave it the way it is and that's my request and we just simply eliminate that one
thing that we know is an industrial aspect of it that may be of concern to some of the board
members for a variety of reasons and we're willing to remove that i agree can i cut in
no what's that uh yes i think the question i think the question's been asked and answered
Yeah, you're all set, Ms. Wang. I'll move on. Again, I'm not trying to jam up Mr. Orphanides on the, you know, industrial commercial use.
Ms. Wang, can you describe for us how trucks currently access the first floor of your property?
Mostly it's from the front and just the truck's coming from the front of the Washington
and loading and leave also from the Washington Street side.
Okay, so at present a truck comes in off of Washington, enters into the first floor of
the building and then at some point turns around and goes back out the onto Washington yes most
of the time yes okay and you agreed that Kimball Street was too narrow for trucks to pass through
correct i agree okay um do you miss wang does your business use the kimball street curb cut at all
not a lot of time
okay can can you describe uh in what circumstances you do use it
Only since Kimball Street is a small street, it's hard to access with the truck, as you stated, but the small truck or sometimes we, you know, a small car, we can access ourselves.
uh remove the uh fabrication part so we don't have a lot of truck uh you know we
not are loading and unloading on the um the final washington
so so the trucks now if approved they would actually just pull up and park on washington
and unload or are they still going to access the property to unload
Sometimes we do want them to access to the property unloaded because it's easier if we have a material on the second floor, let's say cabinet, we use an elevator down if they can load inside the building or be easier for us to load it.
Okay. So with when a truck accesses the first floor of the property to load or unload for your showroom.
how would it then get back out of the building if approved because all of the parking and
turnaround space will now be used for residential parking i was expecting to be in from the
washington and out from the uh kimball street because a lot of time it's it's not our enforcement
because back out the uh kimball street uh it's kind of narrow but still accessible and the uh
but the a lot of time the parking is very close to our building and even though they leave a driveway
but the uh it doesn't it's not wide enough for the truck to go out so i was expecting you know
once this is done and the uh you know the uh driveway area can be wider than can access in and
out easily but not like a big big truck yeah you know the car or you know small truck they still
can be accessed okay but but a truck would not be able to turn around inside
the interior of the building on the first floor if the residential parking
is put in place correct yes and no the we would design if I think can be both
week uh david can you answer me for this part i'm not being asked the question so i mean i
i would i would i mean i don't i don't want to jam it no i wasn't no miss wang maybe i can maybe
i can direct you better um david for the board can you put back up your revised plans and just
show the floor plan of the first floor right here i have it up for you that way everyone can see
what i'm talking about right and i want miss huang to answer your the questions but but but you wish
you could answer them for no but i just don't know that i mean i don't want to object because
you were very you know considerate during my presentation and understanding but she's not
a truck driver she's not a traffic I don't think she's a truck driver I will
I will accept listening to David's objection I put it to the board she's
not a truck driver but she is the owner and operator of a business which has
all the trucks come into and out of her business and she must witness whether
they turn around and how they turn around I agree so I don't know if the
board now has in front of them the revised plans I'm not seeing it on my
screen i don't see them oh sorry maybe i need to share my screen again i'm sorry yeah there you go
is it now uh perfect thank you david sorry yes i was i was i was reprimanded before by
my our secretary about that i was going through emails and everybody could see it so i i thought
I was I thought I was still out there so okay um so miss Wang yes that's discussing the how the
industrial vehicles will access the property how will the customers of your business access the
the property when you uh are approved here you may alter the approval yes assuming that the
building is approved and built uh how would a customer come to your showroom come to your
business oh um for loading unloading material is that what you uh questioning about right
or or someone who wants to access your showroom anybody who's coming usually a lot of customers
do they park out on the street and just coming walk into the showroom they really not parking
to the building only time using you know uh driveway area that when we loading or unloading
stuff okay so so there's no commercial parking in the building as it's proposed correct
uh um i think the parking can be when you say commercial
I think the parking can be, when you say commercial, that means my understanding would be, it can be parking for residential and the commercial at the same time.
But when you say the big truck, it depends how big is it.
But if it's a small, like, you know, it's a, like a pickup truck, it can be accessed.
It can be commercial or residential at the same time.
And do you also have larger trucks than pickup trucks access your property?
If it's very big, we're not letting in. We just usually load it outside and we bring the material out and load it outside.
Like a big box truck, you know, we're not letting it get in. We just load it on the street, actually in front of the building.
Right. Okay. And how will trash be handled when you, assuming that this project is built as proposed?
I think the charge does it shows on the print, isn't it?
Handling, you mean commercial charge or the residential?
Both, including how would it get picked up by a trash collection truck?
Uh, right now it's like we have a real, uh, dumpster.
We, the real dumpster will, uh, when the truck comes, the real dumpster will...
I think the question, ma'am, is going forward, if the project were approved, where will the trash be stored and where would it get picked up, uh, by a commercial, uh, trash hauler?
Where, in the front of the building.
Washington Avenue, obviously. Yes, yes. Because that's the best way to have a
charge truck to access in the fund and then take it out and then dump it and then bring it back in.
And you will be using private trash collection? Yes. And then if you could describe on the floor
plan, where will the granite storage be? Mr. Orfaniti showed a lot of interior photos that
showed quite a bit of granite storage. I'm just wondering where those would be. You mean in the
future? Yes. In the future we will probably show most of them in the on the showroom area and some
of them will be on the second floor. Okay so how would if you had granite that was getting delivered
to be loaded and shown in your showroom how would that happen no in the future once we have a more
residential up there and then the down on the first floor commercial we more like a showroom
area not a lot of operating uh stuff it will be reduced reduced a lot okay if we if we consider
where or not will be a small pieces of granite will be picked up on the showroom yes it will
we're on a small piece of the cabinet or a few piece of cabinet will be picked up yes
it will be still and i just we just don't do that heavy not that much as much as right now
and how is the second floor showroom accessed by customers deliveries
we have a elevator and we have a stair from the showroom goes up
okay um where is the elevator
sean can i help since she can't point to she hasn't had control of the screen
how do we how do we want to do this i mean i don't want to do her work for you since you're
you can you can just show me she said that there's an elevator from the first floor to the second
elevator i don't see it on the plant it's right here so you would enter so here's the lobby and
elevator that comes here elevator lobby and then comes up to here and here's the elevator lobby
and then they can go into the second floor showroom here's the doors or they can enter and then the
stairs are you come in here i mean there's actually two stairs you can come in off the lobby over here
and come out here or this is where their showroom right is now and there are existing stairs right
now that in the interior photos where you go upstairs and then you're into it so you can
either stairs within their existing showroom on the ground floor to the showroom upstairs,
the new elevator and new stair. Actually, I think this is the existing elevator
that there may modify. I don't know. Jenny might be able to speak to that, but elevator and stairs
over here leading up to this elevator lobby and stair lobby that you can also access.
so two stairs and one elevator okay this is a central so this is another this may be another
Okay, this is a central. So this is another, this may be another different commercial unit over here, or it may be theirs as well. But there's a separated access or lobby that comes in here. And that's how also you get up to the residential units as well.
different
That feeds all the way up.
So all access to the elevator has to come off of that hallway from Washington Avenue?
Do you want me to answer that?
Ms. Wang?
All access to the elevator has to come off of the Washington Avenue corridor, correct?
Yes. Okay. Am I hearing it correctly? Have I heard that that elevator is the elevator that
will be used for the residential units or no? Yes, it will be mostly used for the residential
unit. Is there another elevator for the residents or is that the only one?
that's only i think that's a two elevator in that jenny elevator but that's the only bank
right the two elevators yes either two elevator or one with the big one one big elevator
because it's it's kind of small to see on the plan that's going to handle the pedestrian traffic for
your showroom and the residence uh showroom will be mostly we will access inside our stairway unless
we sometimes we might use some uh things to you know carry from the uh uh can i just interject
i think some of these questions might be better addressed to the designer here that david that's
where i'm going next so i just wanted to make sure i got everything for ms wang yeah she's trying her
best to go through the plans as she understands
it, but there are some things that I think.
All right. I'll wait.
Okay. In that case,
Ms. Wang, thank you very much.
Those are my questions for you.
And Ms. Wan,
I would like to ask you some questions
if you're still on. Mr. Whalen, if I can
just interject. Should I, Mr. Chairman,
should I wait until Mr. Whalen
is done to go back
and to
any of these witnesses to address anything
raised by Mr. Whalen, or would you like that to happen as we're going?
Maybe as we're going. Yeah, let's do it as we're going.
I'll try not to take too long.
Ms. Wang, real quickly, just to restate,
most of Mr. Whalen's questions were regarding the
existing and the proposed industrial use, not the residential use.
but you were saying currently trucks drive in and they'll either turn around
because there's so much space and drive out nose first or they back out.
Correct.
To me, right?
Yes. You.
Oh yes.
Okay. And, and again, like I joked before, you know,
in terms of how trucks function, Mr. Whalen is correct.
You are the business run the business there and see trucks picking up and
delivering all the time, but you're not a truck driver yourself, correct? No, I don't. And is it
in the current design, I believe you had mentioned that trucks will either pull up to the loading to
the area in front and pick up or may pull in to that drive aisle that we're showing between the
two non-residential units to pick up, correct? Correct. And if they can't drive through,
let's say the truck is too big to navigate down Kimball because you're
gonna know basically how big of a truck can get out and if they can't turn
around is it possible that they might need to back out onto Washington yes
okay and you when you've been on Washington you see other businesses where
vehicles drive in nose first and back out of the curb cuts rather than coming
out those first you see them back out onto washington as well i see a lot of them we
we're in a similar business and a lot of them doing the same thing or sometimes we just back
it into the building and load and leave and back but do they back out that sometimes right many
times yes okay um in terms of how that works um i know i have the little citizens app because i
I live in the neighborhood, I live a couple, just a couple blocks from you and I get alerts
when there's an accident or somebody's jumping on somebody or something.
I don't see any vehicle accidents down on Washington Avenue come up much of it at all.
Have you seen any accidents with vehicles backing out, you know, construction type
vehicles, delivery vehicles, trucks with building supplies if they need to back out onto Washington?
Have you seen any accidents?
I don't, I don't see any.
And then one thing was a question, this will be my last question.
Mr. Whelan had asked you about the ability to use the residential parking spaces for the non-residential use.
Mr. Whelan had asked you about the ability to use
And I just wanted, you gave your answer that you thought that they could be used for both.
If you understood that you could not, that technically by the code those spaces are dedicated to the residential use,
understand then you would then trucks would not be able to park their trucks
would not be able to use them to turn around that doesn't impact your
business or your decision to proceed with this development project as it
presently stands correct I just wanted to make sure she understood that moving
forward and again I just want to be clear you're we've shown where the trash
is stored I'm circling it on the drawing right now there's trash room on each
floor above and again you'll either have a trash truck pull up in front of the building or pull
into the building a little bit and then the dumpsters brought out is that the plan as opposed
to a truck actually driving all the way in yes that's what we're expecting to do okay so the
dumpsters will be kept indoors until the night of before whatever i don't know how many days you're
going to have pickup they're not even going to put them out they're going to stay inside the
building and they'll come in. Okay. Yeah, they're going to stay. And thank you for bringing that up
because I thought when she said trash collection from in front. Right. He was talking about the
vehicle. The dumpsters themselves will remain inside. They'll come inside, retrieve them,
and take them back outside. Thanks for clearing that up. They won't be put outside for pickup
on the sidewalk. They won't be stored in general on the sidewalk. The only time the dumpsters should
be on the sidewalk will be when they're pulled across from the inside of the building to the
back of the truck, loaded into the truck, and then passed back over the sidewalk. Is that correct,
Ms. Wang? Yes, yes, exactly. Thank you. Thank you for clearing that up. Thank you.
That's it. That concludes my questions. Thank you, Mr. Whalen, for your patience and the board.
All right, so I now just have a few questions, literally three, I think, for Ms. Wang.
Okay. Jenny Wang, are you still on? Yes, I'm here.
Yes, I can. Thank you. And you prepared the revised plans.
So with regard to the ADA spot provided.
It looks like it's dimensioned and appropriate.
Can you walk me through the plan there?
because it it appears that anyone being dropped off in an ada spot or getting out in a wheelchair
or anything like that would get trapped in a corner and doesn't doesn't have the required
eight foot access point um we actually did another design for relocating the ad parking space um
David do you have that other one? Just describe it to Mr. Wellen real quickly. I'm sorry. Okay so
if we were like keeping as an angle but we might rotate it to a perpendicular parking space so
instead of having that spot at the top right corner we were going to relocate it to close
to the bicycle parking. And I have it perpendicular. Okay. However, if you relocated it to the bicycle
parking, that would taking that bike, we're keeping the bicycle parking. But if you could
look closely it is parking space number eight yes i see that that one we remove that and replace it
with uh ada handicapped parking space in 90 degrees okay but there's only the one elevator
in the building correct yes so you're moving the ada space to the farthest space away from the
elevator yes because we're keeping an existing building that is the only other spot that was
allow. Okay. And if we keep it, we've already heard testimony from Ms. Wang
that an industrial truck cannot exit out onto Kimball Street from the center
drive aisle. Would you agree that an ADA sized van would not also be able to make
that turn with the double parking on both sides but they can reverse and go
That they can reverse and go back to Washington.
So an ADA van would have to reverse back up the one-way drive aisle and back out onto
Washington Avenue?
Well, we're still working on the parking space that we might be able to change it
up to become all perpendicular.
And then if it is like that, we will have it either exit in or out on Washington Avenue.
and i was going to switch it to the parking closer to the lobby
okay so so the parking plan isn't final the number is final the the number of spots but
the layout of the parking is not final because we have a concern if they want us to have because
the original design was entered from kimball eggs and washington avenue at the same time we were
able to work away maybe we can enter and exit on washington avenue only
so that's david excuse me david yes we lost that screen what you uh oh do you want me
i had somebody call up and complain that they couldn't see everybody because my plan was taking
everything up i'm sorry do you want me to leave i'm trying to make it just like this project i'm
trying to make everybody and I think disappointing everybody I don't know
what no problem I think the board would rather see the plan faces are nice but
I'm happy to do that I just like looking at your faces I've missed you all right
thank you anyway so anyway so yes so here's this and I think what I mean just
so you know again you know we're at a slight disadvantage because of if I
can. Well, Dave, let me just go ahead and finish. I think I was going to show you the plan that we
were talking about. We would, in a normal course, we would show you the possible revisions that
we're working on to address a variety of different concerns, including the ADA, a lot of which won't
be finalized until we get into construction drawings, but we've already been working on that
aspect and obviously that would have to be compliant at the time that we go through
construction but I'm sorry so okay and this one admitted that the parking is not final at this
time yeah so miss one what is the square footage of the proposed industrial use I see two spaces
on the first floor and then the showroom all together right now is 5,482 square feet
And with regard to Washington Avenue and this dry bile, what is the loading requirement
or stacking requirement for that industrial use?
David, can you help me with it?
I can't answer the question, but
I think it's one per $2,000.
Are we talking industrial?
Ms. Juan, I'm not asking you with regard to the parking requirement.
I'll ask you that next.
But with regard to just stacking and loading,
what is the requirement for commercial and industrial vehicles to access the
property and stack and load for unloading and loading purposes to access the
commercial and industrial uses? If you know. I'm actually not sure. Okay.
Partially they were gonna just unload and load in front of the building. Okay,
is there currently a loading zone in front of the building? Yes. Yes, there is
loading zone in front of the building we apply for it
okay um
okay and miss juan i think you were referring to it there there is a parking
requirement associated with the industrial use correct i'm gonna
i have to object to that i'm sorry mr wellen
it's there's an assumption there that there is
And I kind of have a better answer, but I included the excerpts from the code because it's our position why we didn't receive a refusal for loading or parking for the industrial is that if you look at the applicability section of 14800, that the existing industrial use or a buy right or special exception industrial use does not require the compliance with the parking or loading requirements of the zoning code.
Well, with all due respect, David, I'm looking at the revised plans, and you can make whatever arguments you want, but the revised plans have a zoning table on them.
Well, with all due respect, David, I'm looking at the revised plans.
The zoning data table on the first page, which sets forth the minimum required parking spaces and it says multifamily one per two units, which is listed as 13
But I understand that you're doing 30 units and not 26 so that seems like it's too light. And there's also a listing of all wholesales distribution and storage.
uses, which is a changed industrial use, but has a one per 2,000 square foot requirement.
And I would just put to you that that's not necessarily, that's not accurate, and hence
that's why we didn't receive a refusal for it. So let me just put it this way. I don't mind you
putting the question if it's assuming that's the case, but saying that I can't agree that it is
the case is all I'm trying to say. I don't see a difference but I appreciate your answer to my
question to Ms. Wong. That is all my questions for Ms. Wong. Thank you. I think David's already
rebutted so I think we can just move on to my presentation. Can I just you know well I'll save
up for mike i'll save it for close minutes yep um mr whalen you have witnesses uh i have
uh two witnesses uh or if i bush who would like to speak and jose hernandez uh would like to speak
would you like me to go to my witnesses first and then i can just sum up everything at the end yes
okay and we're going to try to keep witnesses testimony to three minutes um
Or is shorter.
I believe Bori's hand is already raised, so I'm not sure if he's on yet or not.
Bori, you can speak.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, members of the board.
I believe you can hear me.
Chairman Dejico, he needs to be sworn in.
Yes. Do you swear for him to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
I do, yes.
Thank you. And please spell your name for this demographer.
Sure. First name, Ori, O-R-I. Last name, Fibush, F as in Frank, E-I-B-U-S-H.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for calling on me here.
David Orfanides was kind enough to show photos up and down Washington Avenue, showing a host of curb cuts up and down, which really speaks to the incredible lift and the effort and the energy
that the stakeholders of the community, the business owners, the residents have put forward
to eliminate all future curb cuts on the northern side of Washington Avenue over the years to come.
My office, Mr. Donatucci, Mr. Mazzola, Ivan Trincredi, we have all put forward projects.
Noah Ostroff on the 2400 block, not one of them has a curb cut along Washington Avenue.
On those properties where I own and control, where I don't have street frontages on the numbered
streets, I have put forward proposals that have no residential. The 1900 block of Washington
Avenue, Open Box Athletics is a tenant of ours directly next door, Ballet X. Up the block,
Ivins, roofing, all of those are our buildings, not one of which has a proposed curb cut,
and none of them have a proposed residential use there. Similarly, at our office here,
we eliminated what was four curb cuts to put my office at this location. There's one remaining
With respect to Mr. Orphanides' client, with respect to 2031 Washington, the project that's before you is the only project that has been proposed, that is proposed to include a curb cut, and is the only project to not include any real commercial industrial use on the ground floor.
And I don't want to debate that I'm not qualified to debate the technicalities of whether that happens to technically fall under IRMX or I2 or CMX standards.
I can only speak as a stakeholder in the neighborhood, as a neighbor that lives a couple hundred feet away, that it's not within the spirit of what the Planning Commission has spent over a decade working on.
It's not in the spirit of what SOSNA, WAPOA, and other business associations have spent over a decade working on, and that the curb cut that's being proposed at 2031 Washington in coordination and conjunction with complete lack of planning or thought or integration between the industrial use and the commercial space there is going to result in irreparable harm to near neighbors for the next 30 to 40 to 50 years.
because in the years to come when the rest of Washington Avenue on that street frontage is
developed and I can speak directly to it because we own almost half of it when that's all developed
this will be the only curb cut that remains and it will be a true lost opportunity and it will
be the singular point that creates risk and hardship and concern for near neighbors and if
I may just speak on a personal note for a moment I walk past this business no less than 30 times
every single day. Without question, if this is utilized in the way that's proposed,
not having any curb cuts on Washington Avenue is critical to that plan moving
forward.
And we went through an extensive design process with large tenants who would
prefer to have curb cuts on Washington Avenue because of just the access and
the ease of, of what this industrial road was and used in the past.
We worked with them to develop alternate methods of supplying what they need to
run their operations so again I think it's critical for the future of
Washington Avenue that that the intent and the design and the vision of
Washington Avenue be maintained for what they propose
I have a question the decision to maintain the curb cut on Washington
Avenue as opposed to the numbered street is that because of the desire to
continue with the industrial use or was there a more functional reason for not
you moving it to the numbered street are you asking on the new project on our
project no i'm asking on the mr orphanity's project 20 31 washington avenue do you hear what i'm
saying i'm not sure yeah i heard you i'm sorry i was muted would you like me to answer that since
yeah or someone could answer because if that curb cut were eliminated and moved to the numbered
Street, and addresses the issue which Ms. Dorfiniti and others have been talking about
for a number of years, was that ever looked at? Was that ever taken into consideration?
So it's interesting. So first of all, the main hindrance or obstacle to that is that we don't
have frontage on a numbered street. We have two properties between us and 21st Street.
Trust me, if there was a way to make everybody happy and do that, we would. But we're limited
because we only front on Kimball and we only front on Washington.
I had actually even explored with my client the possibility
because the property to the west of us, as you can see in the photographs,
has the sell site in the parking lot,
the possibility of getting an easement across their property
to access the numbered street.
That's how far in order to try to make this work for everybody.
But I think you can imagine they weren't willing to give up their parking
for an easement for us to get out to the numbered street. So that's the main hindrance to the
numbered street. And that's our thing that we don't have that the other two projects that Mr.
Whalen, Mr. Five Bush, and Jose reference is that it's, we just don't have that. And then
we discussed, you know, we had in one way out the other way. You know, we were willing to change it
for the neighbors. The neighbors don't want in and out on Kimball. They, I mean, Mr. Fybush spoke to
how this, no, the neighbors, the community doesn't want, doesn't want this. Well, the neighbors don't
want in and out on Kimball, which would address Mr. Fybush's concern and even, and, and the concern
of their, you know, their concern, Mr. Whalen's client's concerns. But the problem is I met
personally along with my client with the people that are most directly impacted by this project
which are the people on Kimball Street and they did not want in and out in fact they didn't even
want in on Kimball and out on Washington no the only option Mr. Chairman I would just object right
now I mean we've belabored several points here but the uh the neighbors on Kimball Street are
actually here in appearance, you know, in cyberspace, I guess, waiting to speak for
themselves.
All right.
There are neighbors from Kimball Street there.
All right.
We'll figure it out.
But again, they're not all of them.
And we were at the meetings.
So, Mr. Chairman, just to make it easy, I will stipulate that this property, this subject
property does not have access to a numbered street.
I think that no one would be here if that were the case.
And I apologize because I'm not, I'm seeing plans, but I don't see what I normally would if they were in front of me.
So I apologize. I'm looking at it as though the property ran along 21st Street. So my apologies.
As I said at the beginning, we're all muddling through with the new process.
So with that, Mr. Chairman, that concludes my factual portion.
I would like to close and then have my clients adopt my testimony as their own.
testimony is their own i can do that now or we can have the the neighbors have been waiting a long
I can do that now, or we can have the neighbors have been waiting.
time to testify so i'd be happy to let them testify first and then i can go after them
whatever's convenient for you whatever works for you i don't want to make them i don't want to make
the near neighbors date any longer so why don't we let them okay let them go all right all right
and i'll ask those folks who are going to be testifying to please identify yourself for the
record spell your name for the stenographer and then i'll swear you in individually thank you
and and miss sunkett i believe uh dave hall is on the line awaiting to testify
do does his number end in 016
Hello, this is Dave Hall.
Oh, can you hear me?
Okay, Mr. Hall, please identify yourself, name and address.
Yes, my name is Lawrence, L-A-W-R-E-N-C-E, David, D-A-B-I-D, Hall, H-A-L-L.
I live at 2037 Kimball Street.
Can you swear and affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Thank you.
and i thank you mr chairman and the rest of the board for hearing from the near neighbors
my wife and i live at 2037 kimball street and i'll be representing a number of near neighbors
who have spoken over the last uh you know six to 12 months about this project um you have to you
have to testimony on your behalf only okay then i'm testifying on my behalf so my primary concern
is the negative impact that this project will have on the safety of families living on the block.
As you've seen in Mr. Orfaniti's presentation, Kimball Street is a very narrow one-way street
with minimal traffic right now. Many people actually turn down the street and then seeing
how narrow it is, they get scared and back up. This creates a safe play space for families and
children on the street. And we currently have nine families on the block with children younger
than six years old. And I think that one thing that this pandemic has shown us is the need for
safe play space for children, including in streets like ours. We oppose the project using the rear,
I oppose the project using the rear garage door for ingress or egress onto Kimball Street because
it will create more traffic on our narrow street, making it less safe for the children, pedestrians,
and bikers in the neighborhood. And by increasing traffic on Kimball Street, it will also be more
difficult for families to temporarily park in front of their houses and load and unload their
cars, which we frequently do. This would be the only active curb cut on the south side of Kimball
Street. As Mr. Orfaniti said, there are two. One of them is their property, which we've lived in
our house for six years and have not seen it used once while we were there. And the other one is
directly next door at the next fab building. And they have spoken with neighbors and agreed not
to use that back entrance because of how narrow Kimball Street is and how it will negatively
affect the neighbors. Additionally, directly across from the proposed egress, which is my
property, there are two trees and a telephone pole, which will only make it more difficult for
any cars, including trucks, to make that turn out of the property without hitting and damaging
these. And because our street is so narrow, a number of neighbors' cars have been damaged by
people driving down the street and increased traffic would only worsen this problem. The cars
that exit the building will then have to turn onto 21st Street, which is a very dangerous intersection
because there's very limited visibility and a number of pedestrians, including patrons from
the methadone clinic at the corner of 21st and Washington, often cross that intersection. So I
think that's another, you know, potential danger. So, and with my house sitting across, directly
across from the garage door, I'm concerned about the headlights shining into my living room at,
you know, all hours of night with cars exiting. And I know that we spoke with Mr. Orfanides
about that, and we talked about which direction traffic should go. And I don't want direction,
I don't want traffic either way on Kimball Street, but this seemed to be the lesser of two evils.
The second major concern would be the massing of the building casting shadows on our house and
neighboring properties. It will cast a large shadow in midday as as Mr. Orphanides showed
and this is the only building on the 2,000 block of Washington above three stories
that will eliminate a large amount of midday sunlight from our property and surrounding
properties and we appreciate the changes to the design by adding the tiers in the rear of the
building and realize that some shadow is going to be inevitable but we think I think that it could
I think that it could have been more thoughtful design to move the massing forward towards Washington Avenue to decrease the impact.
have been more thoughtful design to move the massing forward.
The property also does not fit in with the rest of the block as it currently is.
And ideally, what I would like to see is on the south side of the block to be filled in with townhomes to fit with the rest of the houses on Kimball Street
and create a more aesthetically appealing block similar to what is currently being built on the 2100 and 2200 block of Kimball.
I think this would be a much more thoughtful project if the developers would have split the lot into an RSA 5, similar to what is being done on those projects.
The third concern would be the roof deck noise, which Mr. Orfanides again brought up earlier.
My house being directly across from where the roof deck would be, I'm afraid that it will limit privacy.
I have concerns about privacy with people looking into our bedroom, which is on the third floor, or onto our roof deck that we have.
You know, I think that that's a huge concern as well as the increased noise on what is now a very quiet and residential street.
And it's one thing to have a single house put across from you where, you know, a family has a roof deck, but it's a very different issue to have a shared roof deck for 30 units across the street from you.
So in summary, you know, Mr. Orphanides referred to the changes on Washington Avenue and referenced the projects at 2100 and the 2200 blocks.
and I agree that the neighborhood is changing
and I look forward to that change
and I do not oppose development on Washington Avenue
but I oppose bad development
and feel that any development should be thoughtful,
attempt to fit in with the surrounding existing properties,
improve the aesthetics of the area
and try to minimize the negative impacts on near neighbors
and I strongly oppose this
because I feel that this project does none of those.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman and the board.
Thank you, Mr. Hall, for your testimony.
Any questions for Mr. Hall?
seeing none tanya we'll move on to the next witness
there's a number on the phone 2016 is the last four numbers are you prepared to testify
yes i am and if i could ask that all who wish to testify and are prepared to please keep yourself
muted so we don't get background noise thank you you can go forward you said
2-0-1-6 is that correct correct are you getting background noise yes
okay hoping i've eliminated some of that are we hiring everybody before they get started
what's that mr mr chairman
do we need to swear each of the people that i will as soon as he i get his name i'm gonna
that's what i've been doing okay individually so you state your name and address sir for the record
my name is murray spencer i'm chairman of the sasna zoning committee
and the sasna office is at 1901 christian street 19146 and i live in 1725
I'm sorry you broke up
You live
I live at 1725 Christian Street
In the same zip code
Thank you and
Mr. Pressure do you swear and firm to tell the truth
The whole truth and nothing but the truth
Let me spell my name
For the record
M-U-R-A-Y
Last name is Spencer
S-P-E-N-P-E-R
I had it down as pressure okay all right please proceed with your testimony okay so we wrote a
letter of opposition based on having four meetings with the client I mean with the applicant the
first of which was an architectural review committee which is part of our vetting process
for large projects like this that took place on January 8th our first meeting with the community
He was applying Wednesday.
It was rather quick.
That's what the applicants wanted to do, and that was January 15th.
There was such opposition and lack of clarity in the project, some of which Mr. Whalen noted in his testimony.
So we had a meeting with the near neighbors on February the 8th, and the applicant came back on February 19th with a revised set of plans.
In fact, they came back with revisions with each meeting, which I thought was rather incredible.
We didn't ask for that.
that we probably thought they would have missed and synthesized more of the changes into a plan
plan instead of reissuing or redesigning at every step but some of our objections
instead of reissuing or redesigning at every step.
are as you've heard today well one of which is the process is only taking 42
days to get to this and by that I mean we started out in January 8th and ended
on February 19th the larger projects that mr. Whalen mentioned the 2401 and
21-on-1. We support those projects, which are much larger, understandably. We took six months
to vet and get through and revise. If everyone's happy with them, I'll be coming back to testify
next week for 21-on-1, as long as it's not on Monday because my wife's having surgery.
One of the big objections with the architects at the first meeting was that it is basically
be a point slab tower. By that we mean it's a rectangular
building and the case is east-west. And one of the issues that came up was
the fenestration. We thought that maybe there were too many windows on the
east-west side. Maybe, I mean, too many that might not be allowable
with code. There's only a foot setback from the property line on each side.
And if someone else came and decided they want to do a similar project
with a similar setback, there would be 12 feet
between windows, and once you got down to the second floor,
if anything ever dropped into the second floor,
how would you ever get down and get out the window and pick it up,
you know, the trash would accumulate there?
That's just another building.
We addressed the initial meeting trash storage.
We don't think this is enough, but in the first meeting there was very little.
I did add, and I followed them for adding, we worked with the neighbors on Kimball with regard to the access in and out of the building.
I'm not sure that that's been fully resolved.
I thought it had been, but hearing Mr. I think Hall's testimony, me and I have been, we, Mr. Whalen also, not punch toes,
but commented on the handicapped parking, additional trash stores,
elevator uses, you know, the truck access.
I mean, we just think that this project might have merit,
but it probably needs a little bit more time, you know,
to put the residents and to smooth out some of the architectural issues,
if they can be smoothed out at all.
I think that's probably going to wrap up my testimony at this time.
Thank you, Mr. Spencer.
Any other witnesses?
I have a question for Mr. Spencer.
Mr. Spencer, this is David Orfanides.
You went through when we met and when the community group meetings were,
architectural review committee, community group meeting.
um when did you when did you ultimately issue your formal letter regarding any object remaining the
result of the community group meeting any remaining outstanding issues you had with
the project what day did you issue that letter uh i have it in front of me and it was issued
can you hear me now we can you you cut off at issued uh july 8th july 8th um that was the date
of the letter and would it be would it be fair to say would you disagree with me if i would say
that it was emailed out to the ZBA, to David Zega, you, Franz Pierre from Councilman Johnson's
office, Madeline Chacumba, and myself on Thursday, July 9th? That's probably correct, yes. Okay, and
that's the day before we were required to submit all of our materials for the hearing, which was
five days before today, which was July 10th, correct? I would not know that, but if you say so, yes.
Okay. So would you disagree with me? Well, let me ask you a question. Do you, in your position with SOSNA, do you interact with Nicole Kodeiker on a regular basis regarding SOSNA matters and zoning matters?
Oh, yes, definitely.
Okay. And what's her position with SOSNA?
She's the executive director.
would it uh were you aware that on july 1st wednesday july 1st that i
emailed her and uh mishacumba from nowak providing them
with notice of today's hearing and ask and requesting
their position positions are you aware of that
Are you aware of that?
okay and were you also aware that on friday
And were you also aware that on Friday, May 15th at 4.46 p.m., that I also emailed Ms. Kodeiker, and in that email, I was following up on an email, a prior email, which I'll get to, and it says,
following up on the email below in our conversation on the street the other day
regarding at least receiving a draft of SOSNA's position letter. This will not only
help ensure that we have enough time before the rescheduled slash continued
ZBA hearing to address any comments in advance thereof, but having that
information will help me better advise the ZBA attorney and administrators the
status of the case for that rescheduling. Thank you for your assistance and
cooperation. Were you aware that I sent that email on May 15th asking for
feedback and input from sasna i don't recall but if i was copied on the email i would have to say
yes because i'm sure i probably read it okay well you weren't but i generally most of the interaction
goes directly to nicole correct at the very least and you said that you have communications with
her on a regular basis correct i do okay i do and were you aware that on march 31st
I sent an email to Ms. Kodeiker at 9.28 p.m. Tuesday.
Nicole, I hope you're doing okay through all that's going on.
We all seem to have a little extra time on our hands these days, and so I'm ready to roll when things improve and return to some semblance of normal.
I wanted to follow up on the status of Sassan's position letter for this project.
I know you had previously indicated that you provided prior to the CBA hearing, which was originally scheduled for March 18th.
While that hearing was obviously continued, perhaps we can get it sooner than whenever the new ZBA hearing date may be.
Thanks for your help, and stay well, be safe.
Regards, David Orfanides.
Were you aware that I sent that email on March 31st, trying to get some feedback to further work on the design of the project,
and that on April 3rd, Ms. Kodeika responded,
Hi, David, I'll be counting votes and writing the letter next week.
Thanks for your patience.
Were you aware of any of those communications in my efforts to try to continue to work on the project since the last community group meeting and zoning board hearing, and that we didn't receive any feedback until last Thursday?
Were you aware of that?
I cannot recall.
But I'd like to say that normally we don't issue our lawyers until the week of the meeting, number one.
Number two, if we had given you a preview of the letter, and you made changes, that would have forced another community meeting at the very least.
And your clients seem to be intent on getting this through as soon as possible.
That's why I think you went to the ZBA in January when, you know, there was a lot of opposition, or maybe it was February, but there was still a lot of opposition.
but you know it would have it would have required yet and we just set up our zoning protocol to show
a lot of other rcos have across the city and the zba itself um so we you probably be another month
or two out once we got our protocols together and had our first meeting which is now together for
i think in august so but online is i mean that may i don't know that i necessarily agree with
you stating what we would wouldn't do David if I if I might I I know this is
sort of awkward to do in this situation mr. chairman I'd like to object just to
this line of questioning because I certainly understand the situation of
timing that mr. orphanetes is in and you know it all days matter but I think mr.
Murray, Spencer said that there was a SOSNA letter was issued. It was issued on whatever
date it was issued. And it says whatever it says. I don't have a copy of it. I think he,
I believe Mr. Spencer said that it was in opposition. You know, I understand that it's
always nicer as the developer to get that earlier rather than later. But, you know, as developers
attorneys, we get it when we get it, unfortunately. So I'm unclear as to where we're going with
all this. So to where we're, and if I can just respond to that, is that Mr. Spencer, through his
statements, is painting a picture to the board that more, that despite us complying technically
with the requirements of the zoning code regarding meetings with the community, that it could have
benefited from more meetings, more tweaking, more changing, and that we made those efforts to try to
make that happen and he said is normal they're normal processes to wait I
I obviously have an email where it said back in April I was going to be getting it the next week,
obviously have an email where it said back in April I was gonna be getting it
the next week and these are not normal
and these are not normal times. So my client, because of the request for continuance at the
first hearing, which was granted, because as is also often the case, you go to a community
group meeting, you hear what they say, and you make revised plans and to present them to the
board. You don't always go back to the community group before you go to the zoning board, but
that's what this group wanted us to do and the board agreed and granted that so that we could
go back and vet the changes we had made based upon the first meeting. We're ready to present
to the zoning board at the first scheduled hearing six months ago, five months ago now,
back to the community. We did that. And then we didn't really hear anything after that. And there
was no opportunity to continue to work with the community. So I don't appreciate what's being
conveyed that somehow there could have been more meetings, or there could have been further
there changes to the projects, as he said, tweaking or revisions. And we wanted to, and we
weren't provided with that. The other thing is, Mr. Spencer, did you read the letter that you
signed, the letter dated July 8th? Did you read that? Okay. And do you feel that that letter
accurately represents to whoever reads it what the current refusals are, what the current
proposal is? Is it your position that it does? I know it states the original refusals,
but do you feel that it accurately conveys where we stand, where we stood as of the last
community group meeting, when you would have written your letter, where we eliminated the
FAR refusal, eliminated the parking refusal, and where we stood in terms of the only remaining
refusal. Our letters are basically overviews of the process of number of meetings that we've had.
It's not an exact verbatim statement of what happened at the meeting, number one. And number
two, let me just remind you that at the February 8th meeting that we had in the Sassna office on
a Saturday afternoon with the near neighbors, that the meeting started out well, but when
it started going against your client, you literally folded up your book and said, we're
out of here, you know, and then you kind of hinted that you may go ahead and build an
as-right project, which we may not like, you know, so we were kind of left dunking.
All right, well, then we had a community group meeting after that, and I continued to try
to meet.
With that being said, I'm just asking questions and I'd like some answers. So paragraph two of
your letter states, the applicant for the project presented to the Sassan Zoning Committee and the
community seeking to build an addition on an existing two-story countertop granite business
on Washington Avenue. The project has two refusals. FAR required 500 and proposed 544.
Required parking is 19 spaces and proposed is 15. This letter was written after we presented to
the community group a plan that reduced the FAR to 463, which is below the
required 500, that had compliant parking 15 spaces for 30 units, and yet in your
letter you represent that there are these two refusals still remaining. Can you
explain that? No, I can't. Okay. So is it, okay, so you're right, so you're waiting, Mr. Spencer,
you're writing a letter to the zoning board that does not even accurately reflect what was in
front of the community at the last meeting. Is that not correct? David, it's not going to negate
effect that across five groups the architectural the architects that's not my question please i'd
ask the chairman i asked mr spencer mr spencer hello everyone's talking over him hello hello
everyone's talking over one another we can't hear a thing it's difficult enough trying to figure out
what's going on because i i can't scroll this letter i'm at the mercy of david or whoever
not being critical not being critical but you know so it's it's we got a
problem here right so answer the question mr. Spencer and then David you
have any more questions don't that's that's the extent of my questioning for
mr. Spencer okay what that is you said you're done and here yeah I mean I don't
need you know at this point I have no further questions we can we can leave it
all right are there any other witnesses uh chair yeah we do we have nine witnesses prepared to
testify however it is 12 57 and we have a 2 p.m session just read my mind i don't know how we're
And we have a 2 p.m. session.
You just read my mind.
I don't know how we're going to be able to get this done today.
going to be able to
Mr. Chairman, I think we can probably wrap this up faster than you anticipate.
I know it's gone on a long time.
My wrap-up presentation will be, you know, five to seven minutes at most.
My testimony, my witnesses are done.
And my understanding is that the remaining, you know, usually there's a procedure when we're all in the same room that you can say, how many other neighbors are here in opposition, even if they don't intend to testify, and they can stand up or raise their hand or whatnot.
My understanding is that that's where we're at.
I don't know how to logistically do that without requiring them.
Well, why don't we try to get everybody's name and address on the record?
i'll swear them in and i'll just ask are you in favor or opposed at a project
without getting into the specifics and if we need be we can continue this to another date
but that might be unless someone has a better idea i don't know that's fine i actually uh
it's a good idea informed that yeah the the witnesses are not intending to testify they
just want to raise their hand as you know with regard to the project or okay
something where you say if they have anything different to add I do believe
that there is another community group that is within the area that is not
just the neighbor or not unless a just but they should maybe have the
opportunity to speak as well well as an RCO I don't again if that's the way it's
going to play out we're gonna have to continue this okay I'm just I'm just
verbalizing because i don't know if you can hear from so i don't i'm not here to make the decision
understood understood understood mr chairman why don't we get the nine names as you intended to
one record anya that's going i guess it's going to be up to you uh so i i i have one offer i have
one offer mr chairman that i think might speed this along uh it is my understanding through zoom
meetings that the organizer of the meeting gets a formal printout of everything that's
written in the chat session, we could just have the individuals write their names and addresses
into the chat session, if that would be okay. No, I would like to go forward with allowing them
to get their name and address on record, just in case they want to speak. We want to allow them.
Okay. Absolutely. We're starting with the first person is Dimitri Kushner.
You can now
Use yourself and speak
Hi, this is Dimitri Kushner
I live at 2014
Kimball Street
Just to keep it short, I oppose this project
Mr. Kushner, would you spell your name for this
Sure, it's D-M-I
Last name
K-U-S-H
And you swear if I'm to tell the truth
The whole truth and nothing but the truth
Thank you. State your comment again.
I'll keep it short. Sure. I live on the on Kimball Street on the south side.
I oppose this project and I agree with everything that my neighbor, David Hall, testified to.
Twenty hundred block Kimball. I'm sorry.
Twenty hundred block of Kimball, correct? I live on 2014 Kimball Street.
14 thank you next person
jose hernandez do you wish to testify at this time
he already did so yeah he did mr hernandez was one of my witnesses he and mr feybush are just
on because right i'm just calling who has their hand up okay they're just going to move through
adopt my testimony laura hummer do you wish to speak at this time
uh yes i would can you hear me yes my name is laura hummer l-a-u-r-a h-u-m-m-e-r i live at 2033
kimball street
miss hummer do you swear in a test to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing about the truth
And your position on this case is?
My husband and I are opposed.
We agree with Dave Hall.
In addition, we are concerned about trucks using Kimball Street at all in any capacity for this property.
Thank you.
Okay, I have an additional login for Murray Spencer.
Are you on two devices or someone else?
are you on two devices or someone else mr spencer already testified right but i'm
Mr. Spencer already testified.
just going through the list there's two names on here so is it someone else
okay we're going to go down to marcus ferrera next hello can you hear me yes okay marcus ferrera
I'm also on the seismozoning committee, but will be testifying on my own behalf.
Please spell your name for the stenographer.
M-A-R-C-U-S.
Last name is F as in Frank, E-R-R-E-I-R-A.
Thank you.
And your position in this case?
I'm opposed.
I'm not sure if I heard.
Did you give us your address?
1620 South Street, Philadelphia, PA, 19146.
A considerable distance away, but we thank you for participating.
Right. I do have quick comments.
I want the zoning board to be aware that the Office of Transportation Information and Systems
James has done a plan to revise Washington Avenue so that instead of the traffic sewer that it currently is, it's going to be downgraded to three to four lanes of traffic with buffered bike lanes.
Having a curb cut mid-block is very contrary to the plan.
I don't mean to interrupt you, sir.
I appreciate your taking the time to be here.
I think a lot of that was covered under testimony by Mr. Orphanides and Mr. Whale and the attorney.
I think we've already covered that.
We do appreciate that.
Thank you.
We have a call-in user 5.
I don't know.
Is that a phone call-in?
I don't know your phone number.
Could you identify yourself if you wish to speak?
This is Mr. Chacumba speaking.
He did not keep his promise.
Today, that street has not been widened.
And that was one of the conditions of me not opposing him on 2101 Washington Avenue to widen Kimball Street.
Because Kimball Street, the people are parking on the curb.
And all the city, all they got to do is get one complaint from his incoming homeowners that they don't want them parking on their curb.
Then the street will be blocked off totally and there will be no parking on the street at all.
because it's illegal to park on the curb.
And almost every part of Kimball Street requires you to park on the curb.
Now, as far as curb cuts, you cannot stop people having curb cuts if they have a business there.
Now, you're assuming that because you zone the IRMX that these people will give up their business,
which is I2, and convert to IRMX.
If they don't, they are allowed to keep that curb cut because they will be grandfathered in.
So whatever plans these people hope to have for Washington Avenue depends upon whether or not they hope they can get rid of the businesses that currently exist on Washington Avenue, as I do, that they will be willing to give up their curve cuts.
I doubt that.
And besides, this business would have a right to continue as a granted place even if they don't get the commercial, get the residential.
I feel that people, if they are willing to go for residential, they should be given the right for residential.
And this thing of trying to block them because of a curved cut, it's just ridiculous.
They didn't block Ori when he wanted to put up his buildings, and his buildings are far much taller than that one.
All these people came out to block this poor man who only is putting up 30 units, not 120, which is five times more.
Shacumba, you're all over the place.
I appreciate it.
I'm not trying to go over the place.
Shacumba, you've been on for over four minutes.
I said I was going to hold this to three minutes.
We've gotten a little bit more time.
We appreciate your concern.
Well, the point of the matter is, like I said, let me just finish this up, okay?
That this gentleman, curve cut or no curve cut, is asking only for IRMX.
He's entitled to that because of all the other properties that you have already given it to that are five times more units than his would ever be, okay?
And this excuse of a curve cut and the rest of this stuff is full of it.
And I hope you will not deny him the right to bill and meet the only requirement that he's asking for is I-R-M-X.
Thank you very much.
It's good to hear from you again.
Next, we have Matthew Underwood.
You can now speak.
My name is Matthew Underwood, M-A-T-H-E-W.
yes only one t u n d e r w o o d and i'm a resident of 2020 kimball street
mr underwood do you swear and affirm that the testimony you give today is truly the best of
your ability yes i do thank you i would uh firstly like oh sorry we're trying to limit this um so we
don't go over things that have already been rehashed several times uh your position support
or non-support uh yes i am not in support i would like to uh just uh second and third uh dimitri
kushner and dave hall's positions um and i think that's it if we need to keep time
thank you appreciate it thank you so much matthew the next person we have is diana
sowinski you can unmute yourself and speak hi am i audible yes okay my name is diana sowinski
d-i-a-n-a s-o-w-i-n-s-k-i i am i live and own 2021 kimball street i live here with my fiance
and i am 100 opposed to this project and second what david hall stated
well thank you very much and i didn't swear you in so let me do that right now the testimony you
gave you swear and attested it was to the best of your ability yes it was thank you thank you
okay next we have meredith gilroy you can now unmute yourself
Hello, this is Meredith Gilroy, spelled M-E-R-E-D-I-T-H-G-I-L-R-O-Y.
I reside at 2013 Kimball Street, and I also oppose this project, and I agree with Dave
Hall's statement, and I also agree with Spencer's statement about it being challenging working
about it being challenging working with um the lawyer and the clients at at at the uh proposed
with the lawyer.
property thank you mr gilroy miss gilroy thank you we now have last nicole you can unmute yourself
Hi, this is Nicole Kodeiker, N-I-C-O-L-E-K-O-E as in Edward, D as in David, Y-K-E-R.
I'm the executive director for South of South Neighborhood Association, and our office is at 1901 Washington Avenue.
I wanted to, because I don't have a vote in the project, I don't technically live in the neighborhood.
I wanted to clarify a few things within three minutes that Mr. Orphanides had said earlier.
So in reference to the corrected refusal information in the letter, the letter was written and referred to the corrected refusal sent to me by David Orphanides on February 19th.
So the documentation that we had was in that letter.
And then also following emails and in-person conversations with Mr. Orphanides between April and present day about turning over Sazna's letter earlier, between now and then.
I spoke with our zoning committee who stated that we would continue to follow our own existing protocols and send our letter closer to the ZBA hearing date.
Usually that letter is sent the Tuesday before the Wednesday hearing.
This time, to follow the protocols, it was sent five days prior, and it was sent to Tanya and
Karayama, because that's where I thought it was supposed to be sent, but then it was confirmed
that it was supposed to be sent to RCO ZBA instead, so that may be where the day difference
And the April email that Mr. Orphanides referred to in his testimony was when we didn't know
when the ZBA was going to reopen, and so saying that I was going to send it the week
after, the ZBA had pushed back their reopening date, and the zoning committee again stated that
we wanted to send the letter closer to their hearing date. And lastly, to clarify, it was made
very clear at SASMA zoning meeting in February, the last meeting that they had with us, it was
made clear to the applicant that our zoning committee would prefer that the applicant revise
and come back to represent this project, because there were still further questions. So the idea
that this was out of nowhere, this letter of opposition is untrue. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Whelan, do we have anyone else? Tanya? No, Chair, that's all.
Mr. Whelan?
I'm muted. All right. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Board. I will make this as quick
as possible because this is still going on. Very bluntly, residential use is appropriate and even
desirable on Washington Avenue. You've heard me make that statement and make it forcefully
any number of times before. You'll hear it again next week on 2101 Washington.
While I recognize that as Mr. Orfinites has represented, that is the sole remaining refusal.
I think on this call, there have been a couple of issues about whether or not there are additional refusals with regard to the industrial use because of the addition of the residential use.
Unfortunately, you know, the residential use is a bit of a Trojan horse.
This comes with a lot of additional requirements and considerations beyond simply saying, is residential good or bad at this property?
and you know to be very blunt we made it clear to Mr. Orphanides in advance and we would make
it clear again I think he would enjoy full support if he agreed to no parking whatsoever
at this project. You know the you've heard a lot about Washington Avenue this is also backed up
by the latest Otis plan which restriping is supposed to start shortly that's to make
Washington Avenue, particularly on the north side, they have a dedicated bike path and extremely
walker friendly. That's where all of this is going. And what you heard today was sort of an
ill-conceived parking plan. It arguably has 15 parking spaces for the residential, which is a
requirement. So again, residential units here are not objectionable, not to my client and I don't
access point from Washington down to Kimball is problematic at best. I think you heard from the
testimony of Mr. Orfaniti's witnesses that there's going to be a lot of backup onto Washington Avenue
across the sidewalk and into the street and the soon-to-be-there bike lane per the Otis plan and
restriping that you're going to have customers parking on Washington Avenue trying to come in.
You have some customers or commercial-related vendors, industrial-related drop-offs, deliveries, pickups that are going to come in.
They're going to block the one-way access.
There's no stacking involved, and so they're going to be in a situation where you could easily have a truck that pulls in off of Washington Avenue.
You have two other cars trying to get in behind them.
That truck then has to back out.
You heard the same thing with regard to the ADA plan, the ADA, the plan with regard to the ADA space. This parking space is not final, as Ms. Juan testified. And so you have a significant amount of confusion and backlog going on at Washington Avenue and into that internal corridor, which, you know, is one way given the width.
and you know it's it's admirable as the you know Mr. Orfinides is trying to present
that they're going to give cut through access um the uh you know just trying to go here I'm happy
to answer any questions you have but I don't want to waste any more of your time um again the curb
cut itself is the major issue in the parking um those are requirements of the residential use
So yes, while you have a residential refusal and that's it, these other issues cannot be, you know, set aside. This plan would actually activate for the first time in many years. I believe one of the neighbors testified at least six or more years that rear access Kimball curb cut.
So you're reactivating a curb cut on a narrow residential neighborhood and activating a curb cut with additional burdensome use on to Washington Avenue.
And with that, I promise to be short. I will be as short as I can.
Again, that backup, the Washington Avenue, there's really no offer of parking for the industrial use anyway.
So if the parking was pulled away and the curb cut was taken away with regard to the residential use, we would certainly be in support.
And I believe from what I heard today, the near neighbors would also be in support.
For those reasons, I don't believe that the variance tests under Marshall was met.
and I will conclude.
Thank you very much for your time.
Thank you.
No one else is on, right?
Oh, I'm sorry, Chairman.
If I may just say to,
I forgot to do this earlier.
If Ori Fibush and Jose Hernandez
could just jump on
and if you would just agree
to adopt my testimony as your own
and it was to the best of your knowledge.
this is this is jose hernandez i do thank you jose and ory
ory five is here yes i do adopt it all right thank you very much i have one question one
question for ory i know you have a real estate office uh on washington avenue and it was
brought out in testimony earlier i think mr orphanese raised it what are the upper floors
are that building used for? Yeah, it's Roma Windows. Jake Gulley has a window manufacturing
facility. He's retiring at the end of this year, and we're converting it to a softer commercial use.
What kind of use? It's going to be a daycare. That's going to be converted to a lobby. The
curb cut will go away, and the dock will go away. You answered my question about the curb cut. Okay,
thank you um yeah close earlier uh i believe when mr spencer spoke from for sasna i believe i heard
him say that they might want some additional time to work through any other issues i don't know how
you resolve the parking to be honest with you but is that something that would be amenable to the
community if mr spencer if you're still on and to mr orphanetes i mean for me you know
again i've said this from the beginning from the very beginning of this project i knew this
was going to happen as soon as mr fey bush reached out to me about his opposition to a
that i was going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place you have existing and david it's not
just that i think it's the kimball street because i thought earlier there was supposedly a meeting a
meeting that took place with the residents and supposedly things were worked out but i didn't
hear that today i don't know that they were completely worked out we had we adopted listen
i think what you're hearing is you know people some people still don't like the building not
here for a building refusal but and we've modified it in a way that it's better than a bi-ranked
building. I think it really comes down to the parking and any change to this building, unless
it's, you know, we're going to say that any buy right doesn't require additional parking if it's
industrial. There's going to be, there's an existing parking impact. There's an existing curb
cut need for the existing operations and anything in the future would as well. And the problem is,
is that we're going to be back here. You're going to be back to the side. We're happy to continue.
and we tried over the last couple months to hear what non, I guess, refusal related issues there
might be, or even refusal related issues. But we're still going to be in this position where
you have Mr. Whalen and his clients who don't want a curb cut on Washington, maybe don't want any
parking at all. And then we have other neighbors, let's say neighbors behind that either they want
the curb cut out on Washington, not back on Kimball at all, no access to Kimball, and or
no parking, although many people then complain that people are going to be parking on the street
and taking their on-street parking. So I hope you can understand that from the beginning,
I've been in a position, we've been in a position of picking our poison in a way,
because no matter what happens after today, what happened before is that some people are going to
say only parking. Some people say you have to have parking. Some people are going to say we don't
want you to have any parking. Some people are going to say if you have parking, it's got to be in and
out of Washington. Some people are going to say if you're going to have parking, it's got to be in
and out of Kimball. And that's my only dilemma with having further meetings. I mean, if there's
further things to be done with the building, you know, I mean, we'd be happy to continue those.
but even some of the things that Mr. Spencer brought up regarding the side balconies and whatnot.
I mean, none of that comes into a play with a buy-right industrial building, with a buy-right
IRMX building, buy-right ICMX building. And then some of that becomes a matter of preference. And
I understand that it all comes into play when you're in front of the zoning board and talking
about variances. It's kind of, you open up everything, even if it's not related to the
refusal but you know they're they're you know we've made a lot of changes as you can see
and it seems that some people are just going to be unhappy with any development project
and i just don't know what and we're still going to be left with people anybody depending where
with parking without parking where the parking's coming in and coming out you're still going to
have people opposed to and i'm never going to satisfy everybody with that i don't know what
else you know me i think i made reference to working to work with people but i just don't
know how we get past that. I don't know. I said that. I think I said that myself. I don't know
how you get past the parking issue. I just don't know. All right. All right. Any questions from
the board? Can I close real quickly? I didn't get a chance to close. Oh, I apologize. I thought you
just closed. No, no. I was just, well, kind of. I was answering your question. But in closing,
I think as Mr. Whalen said, it is closing. You know, he believed residential was appropriate
and even desirable in Washington Avenue.
We're left with one refusal here.
And that refusal,
even though there is a parking element to it,
we've complied with that.
Nobody stated today an objection to the resident,
the one refusal that's in front of you.
I have an issue with 30 residential dwelling units
at this property.
Nobody, not a single person.
Not a single person raised an issue
with that sole remaining refusal.
And I think that's telling.
And I think that that is very key here in terms of the board rendering a decision.
As you know, there are always all these other issues, as I was just referencing, that might
be related to a refusal, might not be related to a refusal, that we try, as part of this
process, both the board does a great job and attorneys like Mr. Whelan and myself try to
deal with these issues that are raised by the community, that are raised by the zoning
board, that aren't listed in a refusal to try to come up with a good project.
Here, nobody raised an objection.
Mr. Whalen's testimony, the testimony he elicited was about the industrial use of my client, of Chelsea Huang, of Jenny Wan, both in talking to Mr. Feibush and Mr. Hernandez.
They focused on the curb cuts.
There's three existing curb cuts.
Forget about whether Kimball has been active or not.
There's two on Washington.
We're getting rid of one of them.
We're reducing it.
There are curb cuts everywhere.
If I come in, if this does, Southside gets remapped, you know, the ordinance has passed already, I'm not sure.
But this does, Southside gets remapped. I, you know, that ordinance has passed already. I'm not sure. You have to beg my pardon for not being up to speed on that.
Southside becomes IRMX. Somebody wants to do, first of all, they're going to have to provide parking if they have residential.
And if it's mid-block, they can do a buy-right development project with parking, but buy-right with a curb cut in parking on the Washington.
They're going to have to do it in order to do it by right. The idea that they're, first of all, there's a ton of curb cuts right now.
The idea, we have one and we use it and we want to continue to use it. That's not going to change as long as it's there. And the idea that somehow in the future, Mr. Five Bush's vision for Washington Avenue, which as far as I know, isn't specifically laid out by the planning commission in terms of, you know, we have an overlay or even city council, no curb cuts on Washington Avenue.
There's none of that.
That's his vision, and it's not realistic.
Because when this gets remapped, it's going to allow for curb cuts by right.
They're never going to go away.
So to focus on that is a red herring.
It's misleading, and it's not even part of the variance.
It's not.
It's regarding the number of residential dwellings, which we've reduced from 37 to 30.
In terms of whether or not we need parking for the industrial, whether or not we need loading for the industrial, I emailed the examiner about that question several times, and I haven't received a response.
I read and I provided you with those sections that it's reasonable to interpret the code that with the existing use that you don't take that into account.
In addition, the current use was approved without a parking requirement.
So that is actually, and that's full two floors.
So the zoning permit, the use permit that's on file with the city of Philadelphia calls for the current use without parking.
And that's been in place for several years.
So we're now reducing the amount that's going to be used.
Now it's full two stories.
We're now reducing it to a fraction of that.
So if it wasn't required before, why should it now be required now when we're actually reducing the GFA for that industrial use?
um in terms of um you know the backup on washington i'm sorry what i'm out of time
okay all right um again appreciate what you're doing quickly um mr fye bush speaking to the
planning commission and what their views are let them speak for themselves irreparable harm to
near neighbors by mr fye bush that's his personal opinion it's not substantiated by any evidence
or testimony in the record. It's just his personal opinion, which he's welcome to.
He's not a traffic expert. I didn't get a chance to cross or recross Mr. Hernandez. I would have
liked to have heard about all the refusals that existed for 2201 that were granted by variances
by the zoning board and those that exist for 2101. I think that information is available to
the zoning board and issuing a decision. With the FAR that we have here, I mean, an industrial
building would require more parking at a thousand square feet. If we did require parking for the
industrial that we have, as Mr. Whalen might say, if we use this building for the existing two
stories or any addition, from what he says, we're going to need even more parking than we have right
now for the residential, for a buy rate industrial building. We would have at a thousand square feet,
we're over 60,000 square feet of GFA here you're talking a thousand square feet one space per
thousand you're talking about 60 parking spaces so again I think the parking is a red herring
and I think everybody in terms of the building which is not before the board in terms of a
refusal we're less intensive than a by right building and it's much sorry chair if I could
interject we're at the 1 30 mark yeah i know i got it um i don't yeah the parking uh i think the
the real issue as it relates to parking is the uh egress out along to kimball street i think that
is probably one of the bigger issues at least in my mind one quick question david if you can do it
One quick question, David, if you can do it in 30 seconds or less, has your client ever had a, have you had a conversation with your client? Have they ever considered maybe eliminating the stone, marble, granite business that would not require that much space and maybe something in a more lighter commercial use so that you wouldn't need to have, you would still need the curb cut on Washington Avenue,
in 30 seconds or less has your client ever had a have you had a conversation with your client
Have they ever considered maybe eliminating the stone, marble, granite business that would not require that much space and maybe something in a more lighter commercial use so that you wouldn't need to have, you would still need the curb cut on Washington Avenue, but it wouldn't be for any industrial purposes.
but it wouldn't be for any industrial purposes.
It would strictly be for the residents of that building.
We haven't explored that.
I mean, I can ask Chelsea to speak to that, but I will say this.
I mean, Mr. Whalen made statements about backups at the property,
you know, with deliveries and trucks pulling in and out and residentials.
There's been no testimony to that.
testimony to that there's been no if there if there were for me at least my opinion if there
There's been no evidence.
If there were, for me at least,
was a way right of eliminating the use of Kimball Street for vehicles to exit the garage I think
that would take a lot of the opposition I could be wrong a lot of the opposition from Kimball
Street notwithstanding the height and the shadows that was mentioned by one of the witnesses earlier
which isn't doesn't reflect the information we provided the shadowing is less than what we're
understood understood but it would eliminate vehicular traffic exiting out onto kimball
street so there's there's two things here so first of all we don't have the required 24 feet
if there are columns that extend in the back we don't have the required 24 feet um between our
to provide we don't we can't provide the circulation and the turning of the car well
no because two-way traffic when you have 10 or more units or more than 10 requires a 24 foot
wide drive aisle. We have physical columns that you can see here, these squares that reduce that
from 18 to the 15. So let's just say we get a variance for not having the required and we're
somehow able to make it work because it does make it tight to have two-way traffic in and out of
from Washington Avenue. That's something that we are open to, but then we walk into Mr. Phi Bush
Mr. Whelan's objections. I mean, I could, if you make that condition, I mean, I would need a couple
minutes to, you know, a couple minutes. Unfortunately, I now know from now on, like Mr. Clinton was wise
enough to do. I would like my clients in the room with me, even if we're social, properly social
distancing, so that I could have these types of communications with them. I mean, it's something
that i could explore with them whether or not they would i mean are you looking for them not
to have any type of a commercial or industrial use there or just not use the curb cut no i said
a commercial use that would not require the loading and unloading of of trucks to put the
material on right um but more so it's about the um vehicular traffic exiting out onto kimball
street and again i mean that would i understand that so it would require an amended application
and an amended refusal i get it i hear you do i think we're still walking into an appeal by mr
whalen and mr feybush but if that's what the board wants to see they can you know they could
and the application and then we it would be what it is it was just a thought i think that might be
drastic enough that you would have to start all over right okay uh so why don't we do this uh
any questions from the board planning commission yes um ron bednar uh this property is indicated
for medium industrial use on the city plan we believe the applicant has not sufficiently
demonstrated necessary hardship regarding the requirements of the code we remain concerned
over the function of the parking lot and also the overall design therefore we
recommend the request for variance does not be granted thank you I really
thought that we can have further conversation on this but why don't we do
this if the board agrees the record will be closed and I'd like to have further
discussion on this in an executive session and will be voted on next
Wednesday the 21st at 10 o'clock and Sharon correct Sharon correct me if I'm
wrong could we still be taking any another wreck by saying the record is
closed their way of providing if they provide us with some additional
information that they address they will have to come back you'll have to if the
record is closed it's closed I'm sorry about the dog they haven't barked
you want to leave the record open to address see about addressing why don't why don't we do it that
way does that work for the board we leave the record leave the record open right smarter minds
than mine you two guys and you're and or you can maybe figure something out that works uh makes
it not as a as an intrusive to the kimball street residents but you will have to come back for a
second hearing. And Tanya will give us a date on that? Yes, and if I could mention that next week
would be 9 30, just a correction. 9 30, okay. All right, so did I leave something out, Sharon?
Just say the record is still open? Yes, the record is open. If parties would like, you can have
another hearing if there are any changes. All right. Thank you all. Thank you.
all right thank you all thank you mr chairman is that another complete
hearing no just to supplement this hearing with anything that has changed
any substantive changes or whatever that may be agreeable to all sides all right
okay thank you thank you all members of the board thank you members of the board
thank you mr whalen and everybody have a really good day stay safe and the board
we'll be back on in 20 minutes 20 minutes sorry stay away from the trees david i'll try my best
oh my god tanya no a few more minutes okay
sorry about this you have a few more minutes i want to give you a full half hour
Oh, okay.
Tom, while we're waiting,
Can you just say a few words?
Because you generally break up.
Unmute.
You're going to unmute.
All right.
Now I'm okay, but sometimes I don't have a stable connection.
It goes out and then comes back in.
That's what's happening.
You break up.
You say a word or two, and then it breaks up.
Maybe it's my connection.
Thank you.
yeah my i get a message on my computer that says my high cpu usage is affecting my system
what is that cpu i'm not sure buddy you getting that from zoom yeah
maybe because you're on the river
if you turn off your video it'll use less bandwidth and we might be able to hear you
better turn my video off yeah let's see if that works better there'll be less bandwidth for your
computer to use. Can you hear me now? Not the same. What do people think? Yeah it's
the same. Okay let's try it for a little bit. I think it's better. I think it's
better too. Think it's a little better now? Okay I leave the video off then. And if
you can just turn it on when you vote Tom that would be great okay yeah it's
much better
yes I'm gonna have to leave this I'll open it up I'm at my house at the shore
I have an umbrella that's on the roof stuck in the solar panels and I have to
leave too I'm going under the umbrella so I gotta get up there before rips up
all the panels off I'm gonna get up there but I gotta try so are you opening
up the two o'clock session I'll open it up yeah when we're ready okay so then
and I'll handle the 3.30
and sort of read the same thing you were reading.
I won't say I'm Frank.
Do you have all that?
If you have the screen, then you can just open it up,
if you have it.
Yeah, I'll say good afternoon.
My name is Frank DiCicco.
Is that okay?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, you got it.
You got it.
I'll be back on as soon as I can get down from the roof.
I'll be back on as soon as I can get down from the roof.
Talk to you.
Talk to you.
Be careful.
Jeff, be careful.
oh boy so we don't have a quorum am i missing someone oh no we do we
time's there we'll start in about five minutes okay cool
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
okay good afternoon my name is carol tenere and i'm the vice chair of the zoning board of adjustment
with me i have board members a board member thomas holliman and our board secretary confessor plaza
I would also like to recognize Tanya Sunkit, our board administrator, and our zoning lawyer,
and our zoning lawyer, Sharon Saleta. Today is our second day of holding virtual hearings.
Sharon Saleta.
Today is our second day of holding virtual.
While we may have to make adjustments along the way, our plan is to call each case and
basically proceed as we would have in a live hearing. We ask that the attorneys for applicants
or other interested parties identify themselves for the record when the case you'll be participating
in is called. We will then hear the appellant's presentation followed by any presentation by
attorneys representing other parties interested parties and members of the public not represented
by council will then be given an opportunity to testify we will finally hear the recommendation
of the planning commission at the hearing's conclusion the board will either vote the matter
immediately or hold it for discussion in executive session any case held for discussion will be voted
on the record at the scheduled July 21st morning session. There are a couple of changes related to
the virtual format. First, we will administer oaths to individual participants prior to their
testimony rather than to the room as a whole since there is no room. Second, for the benefit of anyone
participating by phone, we ask that attorneys and witnesses identify themselves prior to speaking
or testifying. Tanya, is that the 267? Yes. And the number to call in is 267-270-5548.
Third, we'd like to advise everyone that this proceeding is being recorded and that by
participating, you acknowledge your agreement to be recorded. With that said, we can begin.
But before calling our first case, we would like to announce that there are several cases continued.
Calendar number 39667414 South 20th Street.
Calendar number 3982734-36Culture Street.
calendar number 39666 2848 belgrade street calendar number 39646 1215 south 23rd street
calendar number 3939272 1438 south 2nd street and lastly calendar number 39268
3021 Amber Street. Is everyone ready to proceed? Vice Chair, if I could just add two things?
Yes, sure. If everyone who is in attendance wishes to testify for a case, when the case is called,
please identify that you wish to testify by raising your hand. That way we'll be able to
allow you to speak and unmute you also those who are appearing for this hearing by telephone
if you wish to participate and testify you must hit star nine and that will signal that you raised
your hand and we will allow you to speak for the case that's being heard thank you vice chair thank
Thank you. Calendar number 39647, 409 West Euston Street. The attorney is Alan Nockamson.
Mr. Nockamson, I have promoted you to a panelist. You can speak and put your video on if you wish.
okay do you agree to waive the reading of the refusal and stipulate to its accuracy
uh yes i do name and address for the record uh good afternoon uh madam chair members of the
board my name is alan knockamson of knockamson pc 123 south broad street suite 1600 philadelphia pa
19109 okay lastly i have to swear you in do you swear i also have other witnesses or so i figured
maybe would swear all of them in together tanya do we do that swear everyone in or if they wish
i would have to have them brought up okay i have keith aliots the owner's representative
and i have kyun kang the architect for the project
okay they have been unmuted and they're available to speak if they unmute themselves
okay do you swear or affirm to tell the truth nothing but the truth i do thank you uh thank
Thank you very much. So I handed you a packet or you have a packet of exhibits
you very much uh so i handed you a packet where you
or a packet of eight exhibits. The first exhibits the deed to the property showing that 409 West
Houston Street is the owner of the property. The second exhibits the certificate of tax
clearance showing that 409 West Houston Street LLC is tax compliant with the city. The third
exhibit is the notice of refusal for this zoning matter. This is an RSA5 property and we're seeking
to put a two-family dwelling here, a two-unit condominium, and we're being refused for that
purpose. Behind the notice of refusal, you'll see a list of matters where variances have been
granted next to Houston Street. And as you will see from the grid that I created, you'll see an
address, you'll see a variance date, you'll see the zoning classification, you'll see a lot size,
and you'll see the unit size. Other than 510-12 North Street, each of the properties in this
grid that I created shows that all of them are RSA 5. And you'll see the lot size. And if you
look compared to the unit size, our lot, which is 980 square feet dimensionally, is much larger
than what has been previously granted in the past by the Doney Board of Adjustment.
okay have you met with the Civic Association yes and there and that's
exhibit number eight and they're actually in support of this project if
you look at it exhibit a we met with the Norris Square Community Alliance and of
the board ten ten board members support ten board members supported it and three
opposed and then 28 all 28 attendees supported our project so any any
communication with the council person uh no we i i did reach out i haven't heard back
madam chair vice chair we do have sloan folks available for testifying from the council's
office okay great is sloan unmuted long you are not available to speak good afternoon
Good afternoon. Do you agree? I need to swear you in first. Do you agree to swear or affirm
to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? I agree. Thank you. Thank you. You may proceed.
Good afternoon, GBA members and vice chair. My name is Sloan Folks, S-L-O-A-N-E-F-S-A-F-I-R-O-L-K-S
from the Office of Councilwoman Maria Keyona Sanchez, Room 508 City Hall. The applicant has
met with the RCO and has guarded a letter of support. Therefore, the Councilwoman is submitting
or submitting non-opposition to this project. Thank you very much. Does the board have any
questions? Ron, Planning Commission? Yes, this is Ron Bednar, City Planning Commission. The property
Yes, this is Ron Bednar, City Planning Commission.
The property is indicated for residential use on the city plan.
is indicated for residential use on the city plan. Given the new development pattern in that
Given the new development pattern in that neighborhood, we have no objection to the granting the variance.
neighborhood we have no objection to the granting the variance thank you calendar number three nine
Thank you.
calendar number 39647409 West Houston. My vote is yes. My vote is yes. My vote is yes.
six four seven four oh nine west use and my vote is yes my vote is yes my vote is yes
thank you very much good luck oh and you're still here calendar number
Thank you very much. Good luck. Oh, and you're still here. Calendar number 39647409 West Houston.
Natalie Klesjorni is going to be handling that one madam chair I'm sorry madam chair it appears
He's going to be handling that one, Madam Chair. I'm sorry, Madam Chair. It appears that someone
that someone just popped up um anthony patrick were you trying to speak for this case
just popped up. Anthony Patrick, were you trying to speak for this case?
yeah i want to uh i have some questions um regarding this um keep it down uh i have some
yeah i want to uh i have some questions um regarding this um keep it down uh i have some
questions regarding this i'm sorry i have kids in the background um okay uh i apologize good
questions regarding this i'm sorry i have kids in the background um okay uh i apologize good
afternoon to everyone here i'd like to say first uh but question good afternoon i would like to
afternoon to everyone here i'd like to say first uh but question good afternoon i would like to
swear you in do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you
swear you in do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you
all right also can you put your name and address for the record my name is anthony patrick my
also can you put your name and address for the record my name is anthony patrick my address is
address is 2045 north lawrence street um just for a little info i live up the block from 409 west
houston street because uh houston is the small street um lawrence street and lithgow are the
streets that straddle it so um where this property is going i'm a community member i am
mackenzie mackenzie mackenzie can you keep it down please i'm um i am a community member i'm part of
the community garden that's down there on lawrence and north streets um my question is um i don't
Um, my question is, um, I don't know if this could be answered, but, um, like what is going
know if this could be answered.
on with the development property, uh, when it's developed, how much will it be sold for?
And like, I have questions regarding, uh, what this will do to people's, uh, taxes.
Um, and, and what, what, what will it, will this drive?
Sorry to cut you off, but unfortunately that's not.
matter, uh, issue. Uh, you would like, you know, meet with the attorney, uh, you know,
and discuss all that, you know, stuff, but unfortunately that's not a zoning, uh, issue.
Uh, Anthony, you can reach me at a L a N dot knockamson N O C H U M S O N at N O C H U M S
And Mr. Knockupson, could you put that information in the chat for him as well or anyone else who wishes?
I will.
So the next question is, this meeting is for just the zoning notice?
All right.
And everybody so far is in the grants?
yes the community of the the civic association and the councilwoman
okay all right then i have no no more questions
thank you for um for speaking up though
we ready for the next one yes calendar number three nine two zero seven
7600 State Road. Alan, you are not the attorney? Not for this one, Madam Chair. Natalie Klischdorni
from my office will be handling this one. I'll stay. Okay, where is Natalie?
Hello? Hi, Natalie. Hi. Can you please, can you put your name and address on the record, please?
I did that. Oh, okay. Natalie Kleshtorni, Knockups on PC, 123 South Broad Street,
Suite 1600, Philadelphia PA 19109. Okay. And do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing
but the truth? I do. Do you also agree to waive the reading of the refusal and stipulate to its
accuracy? I do. Okay. You may present your case. Thank you. I'm here on behalf of the
tenant ecm group pertaining to the property 7600 state road my client has been a tenant for two
years in the packet that i submitted we have the lease attached as have one exhibit one we had
applied for a use permit to legalize the existing use of wood pallet recycling and refurbishing
this property is zoned i2 in response to our application for a use permit we received a
notice of referral and the reason for the referral was that the proposed use equipment and material
storage building requires a special exception approval in the industrial and manufacturing area
storage building requires a special exception approval in the industrial and manufacturing area
in all honesty i believe that a notice of referral was issued an error because if you look
in all honesty i believe that a notice of referral was issued an error because if you look
at the the list of classifications um equipment and material storage in yards and buildings is
at the the list of classifications um equipment and material storage in yards and buildings is
in fact allowed under i2 so i'm not sure why we were given notice of referral in any event
in fact allowed under i2 so i'm not sure why we were given notice of referral in any event um
is the use of the property as for wood pallet recycling and refurbishing is certainly in
is the use of the property as for wood pallet recycling and refurbishing is certainly in
compliance with um with the classification which allows um the storage of building supplies and
equipment, equipment and material storage, warehousing,
movage and storage facilities, and limited and general industrial.
We did meet with the community and we received a letter of non-opposition.
We also have a letter of non-opposition from Councilman Bobby Heenan.
Is there anyone else who will be testifying in this case?
um i have my client uh um on standby if you wish to ask any questions his name is
does the board have any questions
planning commission
ron oh oh unmute yourself ron
oh unmute yourself Ron thank you okay we support the granting of the special
exception calendar number three nine two zero seven seventy six hundred State
Road my vote is yes my vote is yes my vote is yes thanks thank you so much
Sure. Good luck. Calendar number 39715, 2942 Belgrade Street. The attorney is Neil Sklaroff.
Mr. Sklaroff, you have been promoted to panelists, and you can now put your camera on and speak
as you wish mr skaroff can you hear me can you hear me oh i sure can loud and clear do you swear
or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth i do and you also agree to waive the reading
of the refusal and stipulate to its accuracy i will stipulate that uh it's what the examiner has
put on the refusal and referral. Okay. Do you have anyone who's going to be testifying?
With me today is Gamil Hall of the school district and Carlos Tovar, who is the project
architect. Whether you will be asking them questions or not, I don't know.
okay so you may present your case all right I don't I'd like to share my
screen I don't seem to be able to do that in any event I represent the school
district of Philadelphia which proposes an addition to the Richland Richmond
in elementary school at
or sound went off
unmute yourself sir
Mr. Skleroff you can now share your screen if you wish
and unmute yourself
I'm unmuted now I think
but I don't the share screen is not coming up
it's in shadow
i don't i don't need to be seen even though i had a powerpoint
this project on behalf of the school district is to construct a 16 000 square foot addition
to the existing elementary school the school sits on an assemblage of properties
which was acquired by the school district in the late 1920s and the
school has been operated therefore for many many decades. We've come to the school to the
zoning board with the support of the Southport Richmond Civic Association and the project has
also been approved by the Art Commission. The addition to the building will allow a multi-purpose
room in the existing building which has been used for both the gym and the cafeteria to be
single purpose for a gym and the new cafeteria will be in the new addition. I have submitted in
advance a rather lengthy set of exhibits, and in those exhibits we not only have
the tax certification, the deeds, photographs of the existing Richmond
school, as well as renderings of the proposed edition. We've been asked to get
a special exception that's the basis of the referral. However, this building has
been used as a as a and the property as a school building since before the
enactment of the zoning code plus it's been used continuously as the school
and I'm not sure it warrants however there is no additional burden on the
community because of the addition there will not be additional students because
of the addition by itself and there won't be additional teachers. This is merely giving
the students and children the proper space in order to promote the educational program. As for
As for the variants, the examiner has identified a need for parking, 17 additional spaces based on the 16,530 square feet in the addition.
the variants
they have
There has never been parking for this school.
There will be no additional burden on the surrounding parking on account of this addition.
And therefore, the property could not be improved to provide those parking spaces.
And therefore, we ask for a variance.
Be pleased to answer any questions.
Does the board have any questions?
Can everybody unmute themselves, confessor?
No, I'm good.
No, I'm good.
No questions.
Planning commission?
We support the granting of the special exception.
Hold on, Carol.
Tanya, is there anybody else that want to speak?
Nobody's hand is up.
Thank you.
Calendar number 39715, 2942 Belgrade Street.
My vote is yes.
My vote is yes.
My vote is yes.
Good luck.
And good luck.
Thank you.
Have a great summer.
Thank you.
You as well.
Thank you.
that concludes the two o'clock hearing and I guess I'll see y'all at 3 30.
thank you sounds like a plan I hope Frank safe on that roof this is right
okay so I unmute myself
all right yeah second court reporter yeah i'm here okay we're all ready chair all right
here we go good afternoon everyone my name is frank de chico i'm the chair of the zoning board
of adjustment we have a quorum i'm officially calling this session to order also in attendance
is our vice chair ms carol tenere our board member mr thomas holloman and our board secretary
confessor plaza along with our city solicitor sharon saletta as you probably are aware today
is our second day of holding virtual hearings while we may have we may have to make adjustments
along the way. Our plan is to call each case and basically proceed as we would have in a live
hearing. We ask that attorneys for the applicants or other interested parties identify themselves
for the record when the case you'll be participating is called. We will then hear the
appellant's presentation, followed by any presentation by attorneys representing other
parties. Interested parties and members of the public not represented by counsel will then be
given an opportunity to testify. We will finally hear the recommendation of the
Planning Commission. At the hearing's conclusion, the Board will either vote
the matter immediately or hold it for discussion in executive session. Any case
any case held for discussion will be voted on the record at the scheduled
July 21st morning session. A couple of changes related to the virtual format.
First, we will be administering oaths to individual participants prior to their testimony, rather than to the room as a whole, obviously, since we don't have a room.
Second, for the benefit of anyone participating by phone, we ask that attorneys and witnesses identify themselves prior to speaking or testifying.
Third, we'd like to advise everyone that this proceeding is being recorded and that by
participating you acknowledge your agreement to be recorded. I'd also like to remember recognize that
our staff is being represented by Tanya, Ms. Tanya Sunkit. With that, Carol, call the first case.
please okay um we do have three continuances do you want to do those first or the case if you
don't mind read them off because i don't have the sheet in front of me okay calendar number
392701029 reed street is continued calendar number 39271 1526
Calendar number 39271, 1526 Manton Street is continued.
And calendar number 39269, 2236 Hancock Street is continued.
First case, calendar number is 39276, 3959 Lancaster Avenue.
The attorney is Sherman Toppin.
And I believe there's another attorney as well.
it's either david feinman or josh horvitz
i see sherman tompin joshua horvitz
yes sir okay sir do you do you agree to uh swear or affirm
oh this is what you do frank frank that's you i'm sorry do you swear or
affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Thank you. Please
state your name and address for the record. Spell your name for the stenographer, please.
Sure. My name is Joshua Horvitz, J-O-S-H-U-A-H-O-R-V-I-T-Z of Feynman, Krekstein, and Harris.
Address is 1801 Market Street, Suite 1100, Philadelphia, PA 19103.
Sir, do you agree to waive the reading of the refusal and stipulate to its accuracy?
i do but i'm not the uh appellant sorry i don't represent the appellant josh he's representing
right he's the other yes yes he is the one who filed the motion to quash okay
mr toppen yes my name is sherman toppen our office address is 1800 jfk boulevard suite 300
and I'm here on behalf of the applicant.
Mr. Toppin, do you swear for him to tell the truth,
the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Thank you.
And Toppin, for the stenographer, is spelled T as in Thomas,
O, P as in Paul, P as in Paul, I, N as in Nicholas.
Yes, that is correct.
So there is a motion being made to quash.
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
It's good to see everybody in these difficult times.
of the property as an extension of the services provided by by the ministry and as a second
coincident to that expansion of use the the second zoning variance is to proceed with that level of
use in the without providing the mandatory for parking spaces so we have a two zoning requests
which are somewhat connected and we will we'll talk more about those um we waived the reading of
the refusal, but I guess if that's all moved into record, we can begin to put on our first witness.
Our first witness will be Brian Jenkins, who is the Executive Director of Chosen 300.
I don't see him in my little readout here, but perhaps he is associated with this call.
Ms. Sunkit will figure that out for us. Give us a few seconds.
Brian Jenkins is available to speak as you wish. Okay, thank you. Before you begin, Mr. Toppin,
Mr. Jenkins. I am here, I just don't see myself. Okay, we hear you. Okay. Please state your name
and address for the son of a spell your name. Sure, my name is Reverend Brian Jenkins, B-R-I-A-N
and J-E-N-K-I-N-S. I'm an executive director and senior pastor of Chosen 300 Ministries
located at 3959 Lancaster Avenue, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 19104.
Thank you, Reverend. And do you swear and affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth? I do affirm. Thank you.
Okay. At this time, do members of the board have in front of yourselves the packet of exhibits
that we previously submitted in light for this particular for this only I don't see them if you
can share them I think is the right terminology yes okay so what I'll do is I'm I'm gonna have
to move you around here to get to it so we prior to this we emailed a packet of exhibits so that
we could walk through so that the board can see those exhibits as we're speaking I'm going to
take a few minutes to try to find that on my computer you give me a moment all
actually I found it on my phone I don't know about the other board members if
you've seen it it's in the material that sharon sent us a few minutes ago okay so should i still
um yeah it's the refusal and uh a plot a uh a plan personal care area yes all right yeah
is that sufficient for the other board members if not let me let us know it works okay thank
you so should i continue to pull up the pdf for sharing uh if you could that would i think it
would be helpful it would be helpful if you could all right all right let me go ahead and do that
i'm almost there to do let's see one second just gotta
i will also send the whole exhibit packet to the board members now
if they don't have it okay this is josh horvitz would it be possible for me to get a copy also
yes josh absolutely um what is your email address if you um it's jhorvitz at fineman
law firm.com and i'll shoot you an email now so you have okay okay i'm i was copied on that so
I'm just gonna find my paralegals.
I think she sent it.
Let me just go ahead, right here, everything.
Okay, there's the motion and then there is,
okay, here it is right here.
Downloading it.
All right, it's got a few megabytes,
so it's loading up on my screen
so I can share it just momentarily all right now I have it let me go into the
All right, and sharing.
Oh, I can now get the privilege of sharing this myself.
So I can now get the privilege of sharing this, my screen, here at the bottom.
I'm just hitting that button there.
There we go.
Share.
And here we go.
All right. It's now on my screen. Can everyone see that packet?
Sorry about the delay there. It wasn't loaded up right there. So this is our cover sheet. On the
second page, we will begin to walk through these particular exhibits. I'll stay on number one and
we'll move through them. But back to you, Mr. Jenkins, you're with us? I am. Okay, good. So
Mr. Jenkins, you've already given your name, we've already indicated. At what point did you,
at some point in the past, Chosen 300 purchase the property located at 3959 Lancaster Avenue?
Is that correct? That is correct. The property was purchased in 2010. I think we finally opened
up for operation in 2015. Okay, and Exhibit 1 that you have in your packet is the deed,
and if you scroll down, is the deed that is presented in Exhibit 1 a deed for the premises
that we're speaking about today? Indeed, yes. Okay, and at some point, at the time that you
purchased the property, what was the condition of it at the time that you purchased it?
It needed to be renovated pretty substantially. The interiors had a lot of old wiring.
We added in a second, it's called a mezzanine. It only covers half of the building above the
first floor for office space. We also renovated the downstairs, upgraded the bathrooms that were
in deplorable condition, added all new electrical work, all new plumbing, all new gas, pretty much
everything is new from the curb except one air conditioning unit and the radiators in the
basement which extend up to the first floor which have been capped off. Okay and currently as we
speak today what are the uses that occur at the property? So we do a few things. First of all
primary is we do conduct worship every Sunday morning in Bible studies as well. But our clientele
and the folks that we serve are people that are homeless and then also people that are in extreme
poverty. So you may have some people that are actually either living on the streets, living in
shelters, or possibly just falling below the poverty level, dealing with food insufficiency.
So every worship gathering, we also have a meal as well. We do hold meals here now four days a
week. In addition, we have expungement services, and that's basically where if a person has a
record, whether it's a misdemeanor or they have an ARD or an old arrest that's creating a barrier
from them getting employment. We have attorneys that come in every Monday. It's been kind of
stagnant right now because of COVID-19, of course, but they basically cleared our record
so that the idea is that they would become employable.
We have job training classes.
We also have barber care where twice a month,
barbers come in and provide free haircuts
for the folks that are homeless,
but also the entire community.
Anybody can walk in.
You don't necessarily need a homeless ID
to be able to access those services.
Very recently, we also developed a partnership
with Together Philadelphia,
which there's two representatives online from that,
and maybe you'll hear from them later.
Laura Lombardo and also Risa Walcox. But together, West Philadelphia is a consortium of organizations
including Drexel University, Penn Medicine, Mainline Health, and there's a few others. But
basically, it is designed to provide case management. And we wanted to get that in the
door first before actually starting this process of overnight care because this is indeed a personal
Well, one is really a cry from the community. There are so many people now that are homeless, and the homeless population is increasing, and the number of people that we're seeing on the streets that don't have access to a proper place to be able to stay.
but also we want to make sure that people are moving ahead and it's hard to really get a person
that is homeless to self-sufficiency if they don't have a place to lay their head but we don't want
it to be a place where people are just warehoused and anybody can just walk in with no desire to
get services or get help. The goal is to be able to provide a place where they can get personal
care. They would come in at approximately six o'clock and we have our evening meal. We have
case managers that will be there on site.
Just sorry, Mr.
You're speaking about what you
propose.
Yeah, so let me, I guess, to back
up to the hardship, the issue is that
in the community that there is
so much a desire to
get people off the street, and we have
not been able to be able to
accomplish that.
But also, it is the next
step in order to extend service
to those folks that are in need.
And it really cripples us from being able to do the calling of Christ that we have to be able to let the stranger in.
We're able to feed the stranger. We're able to clothe the naked, but we haven't been able to let the stranger in.
And that's one of the barriers within the calling of our ministry and the calling of Christ that we let the stranger in.
and that creates the hardship and prevents us from doing the ministry of Jesus Christ that he
called us to do, but also it cripples the community because it doesn't allow the community to be able
to have a safe place for people to come, but also a safe place to move forward. Now, is your ministry
funded in part in private way to render the services you've just described? Yes, so we have
private funding, but we also have public funding as well. And then once the program does start,
there will be additional funding that will be accessible to be able to satisfy that. But
we operate currently off of about a little over half a million dollars per year in providing
services to those that are in need. Okay, so part of the hardship, will any of these sources of
funding threatened or perhaps in any jeopardy if the expansion of services are not extended
to overnight stay?
Well, it takes away the credibility of the organization because when we opened this facility,
you know, our message to the community was that we would be opening up a facility to
move towards three tiers.
The first tier was, of course, to provide an effective place where people could come
in and dine and have worship that were impoverished. The second one was to provide services
that would move them towards self-sufficiency. And the third one was that we'd be able to provide
maximum of 40 occupants with rotating staff. Is the basement level of the subject premises
capable of housing, if you will, more than this 40 people?
Absolutely. The occupancy actually for the basement level is 100 persons. The area that
we're using is approximately about 1,500 square feet. So with bunk beds, you could actually have
about 60 people there with barriers and very comfortable. However, you know, we, we really
did not want to go to that level. We wanted to actually provide additional spacing where people
don't have to be kind of too close together, but we could have ample space. And so that's why we
went with the number 40, but we also want to make sure that we have the appropriate capability to
provide the personal care services that go along with this, that this is not a shelter. This is
not a warehouse for people to just come and drop in. This is a place for people to be able to get
help and to move forward. So the answer is yes, we could have asked for 60 and we could have asked
for 100. But we chose a number 40 because that's the number that we're comfortable with.
But we also want to make sure that this is a great place for people to be able to come.
And, Mr. Jenkins, one of the things that's important in a zoning proceeding is that the application request is for a more least restrictive use. Would you consider 40 individuals a least restrictive use when your capacity is, in fact, much greater than that?
Oh, absolutely.
Okay. Further down in your application, there is indication of the hours of operation along that same sentence from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. in the existing structure, and how will you monitor those time frames? How will it be known? How will you make sure that those time frames are maintained?
Well, first of all, our mealtime is at 6 o'clock p.m., and that's when we let, you know, the general community come in.
And you don't necessarily have to be homeless to come and get a meal at Chosen 300.
But the first introduction into the building is that you're coming in for a meal.
But then also there's case managers on site and where, one, the people that are would be registered, per se, to be able to stay in the personal care facility.
at that point, after their meal, their next step would be to go downstairs to the personal
care facility. Whether someone's interacting with them upstairs or downstairs, we are going
to make sure that, have we checked in with them to see where they are in their case management?
Sorry, there's an intake procedure. I know that you could elaborate further on that,
but there is an intake procedure for everyone coming in.
Absolutely. Did you want me to elaborate on that now?
Oh, no, that's fine. We just wanted to see how you would be able to monitor that. And as far as the 8 p.m. time when the individuals that would come in, how would the discharge procedures go?
Well, first of all, for coming in, again, they would come in during the meal, but in order to access downstairs, of course, they would have to be intaked in.
at eight o'clock, our door is pretty much locked, you know, and it's not that people can't get out
in a case of emergency, but if you're staying there, you're staying there for the night. You're
not, this is not like a go in and go out facility. If you're, if you're going to be in the program,
you're going to be in the program, you're going to stay the night. And then at six o'clock AM,
at that point would transition to where we would have some type of breakfast or meal for them.
And then by eight o'clock in the morning, the goal is that everyone would be out of the building at
that point, unless they were receiving additional services during that day, because we are going
to have additional services and counselors that will be available during the day to be able to
see if there's some additional needs that they may need help with. Our goal is to get them to work,
to get them to moving to a self-sufficiency or some type of productive activity.
Okay, and all of that encompasses the first variance. The second variance request is
parking spaces. Noticing here on the refusal, is there any opportunity to develop additional spaces
on the premises as we speak? As of right now, there is a grass lot behind us. I just happened
to park one of the ministry vehicles on the grass, but there is opportunity there.
There's another building that's next to us that we're attempting to purchase. That's an old
garage that's about the extension of our back of our building. But the people that will be coming
are obviously either homeless or they are in great need. And so it is, I want to say, almost impossible.
It is, I don't want to say, almost impossible, but very likely that they will not have a vehicle.
As part of the ministry's ability to provide or to develop parking spaces, is it cost prohibitive or is it possible?
I guess that is in the...
It's possible, but it's very cost difficult now.
I mean, I'm not saying what's not possible maybe five years from now.
Now, I mean, it would involve me purchasing the property that's behind me in order to.
Without purchasing additional land with the land currently that you have under the deed,
is it, I guess that is the critical question.
You want to be sure that the zoning board is aware that in the context of a variance that
it is not feasible or possible to develop parking spaces with what you own now, not
with other land.
That's correct.
I mean, to get to four parking spaces is really impossible.
And, you know, and just to throw a note out there, I mean, the apartment building that's right next to us, you know, has three or four floors of units without one parking space.
So it's pretty, I mean, and you have people that are going to be living there that are obviously going to have cars, but they don't have one parking place at all.
Okay. Now, notice, of course, that your zoning application does not require any new construction
or building, but there is a plan, a floor plan under Exhibit 5 that is on your screen now.
Does that Exhibit 5, this is a Exhibit 5 that's labeled basement plan existing with a handwritten
note in there that says area for personal care. Is this the area where the proposed 40
individuals potentially would be would be staying overnight exactly and the you know the bathrooms
that are on that plan are the bathrooms that they would be utilizing primarily the one that is
actually in that room I'm just plugging in the charger that's the only reason why my head's
burnt bent down sorry about that the the one that's particularly in that room but there is a
second bathroom there as well. It has an emergency shower because of the fact that there are times
that people will desperately need a shower. We want to make sure that they can clean up if they
need to. Some may not want to shower there, but some may, but there is a shower there that's
available to them. And we'll see how the program goes to see if more shower space is needed,
and we'll address that at a later time if need be. But the area that's handwritten is the place
where they will actually be sleeping. Okay and just for the board's awareness
there are additional floor plans as required for each level of the existing
structure. I'm going to just sort of flip by them as but if they are there for
your consideration afterwards I just wanted to outline for the board the area
that is a subject to this particular extension of use. So let's
get now down to the brass tacks of how you proceeded with notifying individuals as to
this particular zoning application. What is required is that notice be given for an RCO
meeting. And we're going to, at this point, I want to talk, before I move to some of the
witnesses of the different RCOs, I just wanted to get from yourself, Ms. Jenkins, or I'm
not sure if there's a staff person that you want to describe, how notice was provided
and how it came about that this notice that is here was presented to the community.
Before you get to that issue, may I ask a question?
Just before you get to the notice issue.
The homeless shelter, would you consider that to be an independent use
or as an accessory use that is part of the religious mission of your church?
Okay, well, first thing is that it's not a shelter.
And I want to be very clear about that because of the fact that that's not the image that we have.
We do not believe in warehousing people and just putting people into buildings without any services.
We believe in transition.
We believe in providing personal care and moving people forward.
So I just want to be very clear on that.
And if you could just restate your question so I can give you a clear answer.
It isn't as though this is an independent use, that there are two uses. There is the church and there is the housing of needy people. It is all part of your religious mission and part of the operation of the church as a religious institution.
um absolutely um one we are a 501c3 non-profit organization um and it works they work hand in
hand uh with the religious aspect of the organization um and as i said extended earlier
And as I said, extended earlier, is that all of this is within the calling of Christ that we have to be able to provide aid to those in need, to provide food to the hungry, clothing to those that are naked, and a place for someone to stay when they are the stranger and need to be taken in.
is that all of this is within the calling of
And that is the calling of Christ, you know, from Matthew 25.
It is a commission that Christ has given us.
Mr. Jenkins, just to be clear, this is Sherman Toppin speaking once again, just to kind of narrow that question there. The current 501-3C mission of Chosen 300, does it currently encompass the activities that are requested in this variance?
Absolutely, yes.
So there's, in other words, this is not a newly funded or differently funded aspect of your mission. It is a continuance of an extension of your existing service mission.
That is correct. Thank you for clearing up the question because I was a little lost.
Yes, I guess some some churches will have its ministry activities and then it may, it'll, you know, begin a separate endeavor within the same building under a different 501c3 or nonprofit or, or board or CDC or however, but that is not the case. If I understand you correctly, we've chosen 300.
You are accurate. Yes.
Okay. So, well, should we, can we proceed?
towards the notice or is there is your argument based strictly on the letter of the zoning code
or are you making an argument argument under the religious land use and institutionalized
persons act or refra would that be part of your argument as well i guess i guess what mr jenkins
is uh well i'm not sure if he's familiar with those those but i will say that i what i when i
I believe what Mr. Jenkins is communicating here is that the existing mission of Chosen 300 has within it currently, not just as a place of worship, but as a nonprofit, the mission and goal to house as well.
And in this particular site, it's fulfilling that original existing mission and goal and not seeking a different – it's not – it's currently underserved.
I think Reverend Jenkins described it well.
This is not an independent use.
It is part of the unified operation of the religious use.
Sorry.
Thank you.
I do have a question.
it's caroltonary um the intake time is 6 a.m to 6 p.m no but the other opposite direction other
direction so 6 p.m 6 p.m they come in for dinner they come in for dinner and then during that time
uh we would begin the intake process um some people will already of course you know as time
goes on people would have already been you know approved and the intake is like okay you're
already signed up to be here. You fulfilled your case management for this week. You can stay,
not a big deal. The new people, there will be a bit more of intake process, of course,
because we are going, one of the things that we want to stress is that we are going to be very
selective about who stays here. And the reason why is because we, if someone has a violent background,
we don't want them there. And we do have the capacity because we have the systems in place
for our expungement services to do background checks. So if someone has just killed somebody
three weeks ago and got out on parole, we're not letting them stay here tonight because we don't
want to put anybody in danger, but also we don't want to attract that kind of element to the
community. And we're very particular about that. If someone is intoxicated or they're high on drugs
that night. We cannot let them in because of the fact that they may be a harm to themselves,
but also a harm to someone else. But also, we don't have that expertise. And we can refer them
to someone to a place that can handle that particular challenge. So again, this is not
a free-for-all where everybody can walk in and spend the night at Chosen 300. This is an intense
and direct, purposeful cause to be able to move people towards self-sufficiency and be able to
really give them that leg up. But again, it's not a free-for-all where we're going to attract
things into the community that the community doesn't want. And I do understand that we're
that we keep a positive view in the community. And that's one of our, that's always been our
goal. The people who come in at six o'clock, are they guaranteed to stay the following day?
Or is it first on first served outside? So the people that come in at six o'clock,
when they're coming in, everybody comes in for a meal. Of course, we have up to 40 spaces.
But, you know, there's an intake process. It's not where they just, you know, come and just automatically stay. There's some checking that's going on. This is a program. This is not where a drop-in center where, for instance, the city of Philadelphia can just drop somebody off one night and say, okay, here's a place for you to stay. This is not that kind of place.
This is a place where we need to check you out, and we need to make sure that you are fit and you agree to the programmatic pieces that are going to be in this program, and that it's going to work for you.
you know it's a it's it's a very difficult population that you're working with and
unfortunately there are mental health issues sometimes there are drug and alcohol issues
how do you make sure that that's not happening well again the um if someone is coming in high
or drunk that night uh they're not going to be admitted um and that's the that's the reality um
But they leave your facility during the day, and you don't know where they are.
They do leave the facility during the day.
However, they are assigned to a case manager that is going to be walking them through the process of getting assistance that they need, getting the services that they need,
but also seeing how we can get them from homelessness to employment to self-sufficiency to their own housing.
And so that is the goal of this.
And during the day, we have staff here all day long that can meet with people and interact with them and see what services that they need.
And we also have classes during the day.
And this is something that we've been doing for years.
This is not a fly-by-night ministry that just started.
Chosen 300 has been in Philadelphia since 1996.
And so we know what we're doing.
We do it well.
but we are going to make sure
that it's people that want help
or want to get up and that are willing
to accept services. Again,
this is not a place where people can just
come and stay the night
and refuse services. This is a place
where you're going to come in, you're going to get help
and move forward.
So it's not three hots
and a cot.
That's jail.
And then leave.
That's not
what it is?
It's not what it is.
It's not three hots and a cot, no.
Thank you.
Okay, well, I am glad, you know,
Reverend Jenkins, that you gave that,
because distinguishing the variety of service
and the type of place that Chosen 300 is,
is really paramount to understanding the application.
So we appreciate your enthusiasm,
and I can hear that in your voice.
I want to shift over to the notice to RCOs
and neighbors. In the midst, as we continue towards the process of seeking the support
of their neighbors and whatnot, explain to me how Chapman 300 proceeded with the notice process.
Well, there's a couple things that happened during the zoning process. The first thing,
of course, we applied for the appeal. We received the appeal notice and was informed that our
letters to 134 different. You follow the protocols, what I'm saying, and I keep interrupting you,
but I think we. Yes, I'm sorry. No, the exhibits basically say that, and I'd rather
move on to some other issues if we have any. So anyway, you follow procedures. I don't think
there's any question if there is counsel for the protestant will raise that, but I don't see where
there is any problem?
The 24th Ward Democrat RCO supported your project.
Do I have a letter to that effect?
And if I may, we not only met with one RCO, which was the 24th Ward,
we also met with the West Powleton.
Pam Andrews is the head of that one.
And we met with them twice as well.
And both RCOs voted favorably for us.
Okay. And with that support, Reverend Jenkins, you come to the ZBA with not just the support of the two RCOs, the lead and supporting, but you also have the support of the council person. Is that correct?
That is correct. They also submitted a support letter as well.
Okay. Well, that being the case, we would like to just turn the presentation over to the ZBA.
If there's any additional questions specific to the use, we would be happy to answer those at this time.
Any questions from the board at this time?
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
I have a question about the from the drawings that I see there's a basement first floor
and a mezzanine three levels which level are the bunk beds they will be in the basement
Now, according to the drawings, I don't see any windows in the basement.
There is not any windows in the basement.
However, the one thing that we will be adding is ventilation.
There are three exits out of the basement.
One is out to the backyard.
uh yard um one is up through uh um the front stairwell which leads out the front door
and one is out the back um uh stairwell um and and out the back door upstairs on the first floor
so there are three exits there yeah okay but for sleeping space you need natural light so you need
some windows yeah is there an opportunity uh mr jenkins
or ever jenkins to uh to um create any window space in the in the space
belief the building in the area in the basement area
even it would be
possible possible but difficult i mean we would have to open up the sidewalk
on the front of the building and and then dig through and then open up the
wall which are 32 inches thick and create a window space there is there is
there is a window in the basement it is but it is on the other side and it's so
So when you, the area where they are sleeping, if you go up those two steps to the left,
there is one window there.
So your masonry walls are party walls?
Are they party walls?
Are they attached?
they they're um the the so the front of the building which is actually on the screen right
now okay that that is the wall that goes that straight down into the basement um the one that's
Right now, there are de-humidifiers. We are putting a ventilation system in. That's one of the things that we are going to do before we open, because we want to make sure that it doesn't get humid down there.
There is heat down there, but we are going to put a ventilation system in there, and it actually stays pretty cool down there all year round.
Thank you.
Any other further questions, Tom?
So could I have the opportunity to cross-examine?
Yes, you will.
I thank you.
Mr. Taupin, have you concluded?
Yes, we've concluded.
I think the board has a full flavor of the ministry, its uses, its zoning application, and the challenges for parking, as well as challenges for, as we recently discussed, for any additional window light.
But these are all within the, they're still safe context as far as exiting in the case of emergency at the lower level where these occupants will be.
And we feel comfortable with that particular situation.
So with that, we rest.
We want to, we look forward to any questions and dealing with the cross-examination that may come from the protestant.
Thank you.
if I may, briefly cross-examine Mr. Jenkins before putting on my case. Mr. Jenkins, my name is Josh
Horvitz. I represent the neighbor, 3965 Lancaster Avenue. If I heard your testimony correctly, you
said that your hardship that would require a variance in this case is the cry of the community.
Is that correct? It is the cry of the community. There's a lot of people that are currently on the
streets. And then there's also a lot of people are concerned that a lot of people don't have
places to go. Right. And you said, you know, you also said the hardship was to get people off the
street, or at least that's how you were going to cure this hardship. Well, the goal was to, one,
move people off the street, but also move them towards self-sufficiency. It's a two-phase thing.
It's not just get people off the street. It's move people ahead in life and to get them to a
a place of self-sufficiency, our goal was to eliminate homelessness in people's lives,
to eliminate extreme poverty in people's lives, to move them towards self-sufficiency.
Understood. So, would it be correct to say that there's no hardship of the land in this case?
Well, the hardship is that this is our religious purpose. And so, the use of what we do here
is our religious service unto Christ. And so, by creating a barrier that prevents us from carrying
out the work of Jesus Christ that we are commissioned for, it therefore creates a
hardship. It also creates a hardship is because the expectation of our contributors and those
that have put their faith in our organization are expecting us to be able to provide a place
for people to get a way out. I think that the answer then is that there's no hardship
about the land. This property is in the CMX2 zoning district. Have you taken a look at what
else is permitted in the CMX2 besides what you proposed here? I did not. Okay. Would it be safe
to say that it would be possible to use this property in some of those other ways that are
permitted under CMX2? Well, right now it's used for religious purposes. Yes. And that's what the
purpose of this property is for religious purposes. So it is being used now. And actually to clarify
that for you, is that this property has been used for religious services since 1964, which was one
year before Martin Luther King actually spoke on this corner in 1965. So it is a symbol of the
community to be able to provide services on this corner. So I think based on that testimony, the
zoning code says that in order to get a variance, that there has to be no possibility, I'm reading
directly from the code, that no possibility that the property can be used in strict conformity with
the provisions of the zoning code. So you're telling me that the property has been used in
strict conformity with the zoning code for many years. You know, I think what you're, you know,
I would object to the form of the question. I believe what Reverend Jenkins has just stated
is that the conformity of the code, that the mission of the ministry is restricted by conformity
of the code. I think he has said that several times. That is why the extension of services
to overnight is required not only because of financial hardship regarding the the donors
and lenders and those who contribute to the organization expect this service so there's a
financial hardship that he's testified to of the land financial hardship of the land i'm not sure
in handwriting on the plans that you submitted here
that were part of your exhibit package?
I did.
It looks like it says area for personal care.
You did?
And where on here does it show the bunk beds
you were talking about?
Well, we haven't purchased the bunk beds
because we don't have a zoning yet.
And so there's no way to put bunk beds in
if you don't have a zoning.
Well, I'm not sure if you've been here
in front of the board before,
but I have many times, and most people who go in front of them, they show where on the plans the
people are going to sleep. In addition to the many requirements of LNI and the zoning board,
there's more to it than that. People have to know where it's going to be. You said that
this is 1,500 square feet where you intend to house these people overnight?
just the room itself where the bunk beds are yes so um 1500 square feet that sounds to me like
about a two-bedroom apartment you're gonna put 40 people in that amount of space is that correct
max maximum of 40 people in bunk beds so you're talking about 20 beds well and then this is why
we would need to know where the beds are because how are we going to do that um especially in these
times for social distancing and that kind of thing are you uh is your organization licensed
to operate a personal care facility in pennsylvania we are licensed as a religious organization
as a personal care home you said so how this facility how this process is going to work
is that once we do get the zoning we will be contracting with an organization like
Bethesda or some other organization to be able to do the intake and assist us with that and we
will go under their license. So I think the answer is no. So you said that you're not operating a
homeless shelter. The people that you're going to have stay over, aren't they going to be
predominantly homeless? Some will be homeless. Some may be where they're down on their luck
and have been transitioning from place to place and aren't we providing them with shelter
no i'm not providing with a shelter i'm providing with the residents there's a difference
shelter is where you put somebody in the box and you leave them there
uh a residency there i yeah i you reverend with all due respect you've used the word homeless
many many times during your presentation and i think i think that just looking at what you're
doing it's admirable work don't get me wrong but uh it's i think homeless would be the right
definition for what you're doing here sure people from off the streets who don't have a home
you don't have a home they're living on the street and you're giving them a place to reside
exactly i'm very comfortable with that but to identify it as a shelter that's not what it is
I'm not going to I'm not going to debate you I just yeah I mean you know to me it's it's it's a
homeless maybe not shelter we'll call it a homeless facility call what you want but it's
taking people in your words who are down on their luck who are living on the streets and you said
that many people in the community want to see these people you know get off the streets and
have a place that where they can reside. Those are, I'm paraphrasing what you said many times
in your presentation. So I don't want to sit here for the next 10 minutes squabbling on the
on the semantics of it or terminology. You're providing a facility for people who are homeless.
Yes, sir. Yes. I just have one more quick question. And then I think,
you know, when we're done with this, I can get on to a witness or two I have.
But so you said that the occupancy of the basement level is about 100 people capacity, they said, or occupancy, according to the city.
Do you believe that means that that is for sleeping purposes, that that means that's how many people could occupy and reside down there together?
no reverend jenkins you've been very clear on on the nature of the scope that the the ministry
itself and what it should what is it what it aims to do um and if i if i hear you correctly
without the ability to have overnight stay in the in the area that we're talking about
this there is no other place within the church building where these 40 individuals
can actually be housed. Is that correct? That is correct. So this area is the only place within
the building where you can, when you can extend these services to this segment of the community.
That is correct. Our first, and to kind of go through the building just very quickly,
the top floor, the mezzanine is our office space where our, the pastor's office, the secretaries
are um and then the uh the first floor level is our worship and our dining area um and then the
bottom the bottom floor which is the basement area that we mentioned is the proposed area for
where they can be sleeping those are the only three floors in the building okay so so the
hardship of the land to take on opposing counsel's question would be that the facility lends you no
other option but this area to to extend the services as you described yes sir
and as it relates to the second zoning request um the land itself there is no land uh for which
you can develop for parking spaces on the premises to meet the code is that okay all right no further
questions there how many staff members do you have um right now we have uh seven staff members
There's about 2,100 volunteers that participate in the organization.
1,100?
We have 115 churches in the network.
Oh, in the network.
Thank you.
So the dynamic is that there's churches that participate in our program and commit to volunteer service, and they volunteer once a month at our facilities.
So over the course of a month, throughout our three locations, we have about 2,100 volunteers that come through.
of course that's been affected currently by COVID-19 but um that is the normal um volunteer level
all right we have some witnesses uh mr toppen do you have someone do you have anyone on your side
um part of what we um part of the witness what your um council sir we had a couple witnesses
that we may not need to call because the because they were witnesses that were
around the notice requirements for the RCOs.
And that would include the 24th board leader,
Bernadette Weish and Pamela Andrews.
Both of these witnesses were related
to the notice requirements where we believe
that the board has heard and understands that there's,
and there's no objection as the motion was to quash.
You won't need those two witnesses.
The other two witnesses for Chosen 300,
Alexis Thomas and Sharika Douglas,
they were adding further detail
regarding the mission of Chosen 300 and how it will deal with COVID-19 and so on.
But Reverend Jenkins was so descriptive as to the overall mission of the ministry that I think those—
I think we got it.
Yeah, they would be redundant.
We did want to have one ministry, and that's Pastor Jay Broadnecks.
If Pastor Jay Broadnecks is on this particular call, we'd like to call him because he is a near neighbor
within the affected area that can speak to outside of Reverend Jenkins
what the community sentiment is for this particular zoning application.
And if he's on the call, I would like to call him as a witness.
Pastor Ron?
And is he coming through the telephone?
I can't see all the folks that are associated with the call,
Mount Pisgah is actually the host of the West Powlton Saunders Park RCO. We host the meetings each month. And so we heard the application, the two hearings that came before the West Powlton group.
Okay. And were you in attendance, Reverend, at both of those meetings?
Yes, sir.
And can you tell us about the number of people that were at the vote that brought about a support for this application in your church?
There were approximately 36 people at that meeting.
Okay. And are these folks that are members of your ministry or folks that, were you aware of them?
did you know it was a it was a mix uh we we had uh we our church had about uh eight to ten of those
30 but uh the rest were from the community and and reverend what what is your what is your feeling
of the community's desire to have this this particular zoning application approved um what
is your feeling from being in that meeting and being and being a near neighbor yourself um uh
What I heard in the meeting, the people in the community have seen the track record that Chosen 300 Ministry has, the work and experience that they have in this particular area.
And as it was presented as an extension of what's already been being done, folks in the community are very aware of Chosen 300 Ministries and the work that they do.
and the benefit that they bring to the community.
So from what I saw, the majority of the people in the room were supportive
and were also convinced of the competence of the organization to handle this extension.
Well, that's really what we wanted to have you say on the record, Reverend.
We appreciate your time.
That's all the questions I have for Reverend Buck.
I have a question for the Reverend.
Within your ministry, do any of the other facilities within your ministry offer the same type of services?
And do any of them have the ability after dinner to have a place to sleep within those facilities?
No, sir.
At least with our ministry or others in the community, a number of us do have feeding ministries.
Frankly, many of us send our folks to Chosen 300 to learn how to do the work.
And then we come back, we have them in our church, but we do not have residency capability.
Your answer is correct.
Thank you.
Any questions from the board for the pastor?
Mr. Horvitz?
No questions.
Thank you.
Topping anyone else?
that's all the questions you're on okay okay so if I could interject here yep
that all those who are joint later on the telephone if you wish to testify
regarding this case there is a phone-in number that you could use to call in and
And that would allow you to raise your hand. And that number is 267-270-5548.
And then I would like to recognize that we have Andrew Goodman from the council's office.
Andrew, you are allowed to speak at this time. You can unmute yourself.
Andrew.
Hi, good afternoon.
Hi. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
And you'll identify yourself and who you work for?
Yes. Andrew Goodman, G-O-O-D-M-A-N, Office of Third District Council Member Jamie Gaudier, spelled G-A-U-T-H-I-E-R.
All right, so I'm here today to affirm the council member's letter of support for the proposed use variants at the chosen 300 ministries site.
As our letter reflects, we are aware that there are two letters of support from overlapping RCOs, which I'd say in some cases is an unusual show of support, especially for, you know, for use on a commercial corridor.
and we found the applicant to be very responsive to our inquiries and our communications back when
the original hearing was you know was scheduled back in March and we also want to recognize
their commitment to convening a community advisory board which we think would be a
would be a great mechanism to address any you know any challenges on the ground as well as
great mechanism to address any you know any challenges on the ground.
an opportunity for community partners and members to come together to collaborate on projects that
are of the greater good to the community going forward and so we we are we're grateful for these
steps and for that reason we support the application and you know while there we recognize
there might be some questions that get at more at the building code level but we would you know
trust the good folks at licenses and inspections when it comes to the building code process to
address those. So we affirm our support for the variants. Andrew, a question. Were you at any of
those RCO meetings? No, I was not. So we had just taken office, and I actually hadn't started at
that time. Okay. The reason I ask, I was just wondering, on the surface, the services that
are being rendered and have been obviously really great stuff I was just
wondering if you happen to know if the councilwoman is aware of some of the
questions that we raised today about housing people in the basement without
windows and ventilation and things of that nature I can understand on the
surface when you look at the application and what the good work the Revin does it
would be difficult not to support that but when you look at the physical
makeup of the building
and how these folks will be
housed overnight,
I just don't, I wonder if the councilwoman
is aware of any of that.
If you don't know,
we don't know. I mean, it's hard for you to answer.
I don't know, but again,
to me as an individual, that sounds like
a building code question, not a zoning code question.
but we have to review
that when we
hear these cases. You're absolutely
right. I don't know if at the end of
the day, if L and I would approve this, or
Fire Department, or whoever, any of
the safety agencies would approve it, but
it's... Yeah, and there's still many
steps needed before, you know, before
COs would be issued. Yeah.
Yeah. All right. Thank you, and thank you
to the Councilwoman. Mr. Chair, if I may,
you had mentioned about ventilation, and
I mentioned earlier, one of the things that we will be
doing prior to opening
a facility is to make sure that there is proper
ventilation. We're top of the line when it comes to making sure the service is provided properly.
But again, we don't know the next step, if you're even going to get approved. I don't have any
knowledge of that, but I think you're going to have a tough hill to climb to get there. But
that's just my opinion. I believe by faith. Okay. Chair, I did want to apologize. I misspoke
that a housing component was a goal to expand the ministry. So now that we have
come to this point, I'm here to offer my voice of support and shed any more light that I can
on the need for it at this time. I'll just ask you one question because I think it's been
And a bit noted just how awesome Chosen 300 has been in this space, but in your experience
of 12 years, have you had any difficulties or issues that you would bring to the board
as it relates to how the Chosen 300 sites interact with communities?
No, and I deal with community issues on a constant basis, and Chosen 300 has always
has been an advocate for the community, and particularly for the community that we serve.
And that is continuing at this moment.
Sherman, if I may, one of the things I want to add to, Dr. Wright is also the vice president
of the Baptist Ministries Conference of Philadelphia and Vicinity. So he has access
to all the pastors in the community. So he hears the voice of the community on a regular basis.
He's the president.
again i appreciate it and not to belabor the point i i don't think there's anyone that is
questioning uh the services that you provide uh the standards that you have adhered to over the
years uh you've certainly got some great folks coming in uh pastors are coming in that speak on
your behalf uh for up for me at least at the moment i have a question of of safety it's a
question for me of public safety. On the one hand, you want to provide a service for people who are
in need, for people who are less fortunate, but the last thing this board would want to do is to
put folks in a position where it may not be safe. We've had numerous cases since I've been on the
board, and obviously before that, where people wanted to build apartments, and they want to have
a basement apartment without windows, and we always question the security reason. It's not an
department it's just a dormitory yeah but people are sleeping overnight
uh well that wasn't part of our presentation uh uh mr chico just uh but i i do want to say this
and and you know clearly my client chosen three thousand chosen 300 we would love to have the
opportunity if the board i know we're not there yet but when we get there we certainly will be
asking the board opportunity to bring in the expertise as well as additional plans to show
and to demonstrate how this particular application will play out in the most safe manner. At this
point, we're sort of midstream in the hearing. So that is going to be what we will close with
when the time comes. Mr. Chair, if I may, one of the things that I mentioned earlier is that
we had already been approved for occupancy of 100 persons in the basement level but then also
I mentioned earlier there are three ways of exit and so there's an exit out the back door
into the backyard there's an exit to the front of the building out the front and there's an exit up
to the second floor out so I mean I heard that but you say you were approved for 100 occupancy
Was that overnight occupancy or is that just for daily?
No, sir. It was, it was, it was for occupancy at one point. Yeah.
It wasn't for overnight.
That's the sticky point. I mean, for us, that's, that's the issue for me,
at least anyway. I mean,
Mr. Holloman and the vice chair of Ms. Tenere raised that issue, you know,
a few minutes ago. That for me is a challenge.
So I mean,
I don't know if Mr. Toppin must hold this until you go through other
exercises or other steps along the way i don't sharon i don't know if you want to weigh in i
don't know if we can do it that way or hold pending l and i's sign off on now i don't think
that they wouldn't be able to proceed to the next step without this so we'd have to make one thing
i like to share real quickly about the building itself um this actually used to be an old bank
um and in between uh the first floor and the second floor there's six inches of wood and six
inches of concrete the walls are 32 inches thick and so the um the strength of this building um
you know is beyond safe and it's fire rated throughout the building yeah well the reverend
regroup and present additional testimony and evidence that we don't have in this particular
moment. But it appears to me that without the approval of the zoning board to explore that,
at least with the approval of the board to go forward to zoning, then we can, with the building
code and the folks at L&I, do whatever structural design modifications are needed to get to that
level, even if it means a change in the number of occupants that can be in the lower level,
in the basement but that that is i guess that that is the place where we are at as of this moment
having less we have any other uh speakers uh tanya yes chair why don't we do that and then
i'll give you my closing statement on it all right um adam perlman you are now able to unmute yourself
and speak hi um thank you mr chico thank you board um can you guys mr perlman yes we can
would you perlman would you please identify yourself name and address uh yeah adam perlman
um i'm the protestant um three nine six five lancaster avenue um i've been listening you know
for an hour and a half i just gotta swear mr adam mr perlman i will you swear do you swear
and affirmative to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes sir thank you now
you can proceed thank you okay um so i uh purchased the adjacent property 3965 lancaster avenue
um two and a half years ago to build a 10-unit building um and i i know brian and i i respect
and i appreciate the mission of the church and everything they're doing um i did spend without
going into too much detail. Six years prior to moving to Philadelphia, working in the Bronx,
New York, urban India, and urban sub-Saharan Africa, working in slum rehabilitation.
And I take this issue seriously. This is not just a religious issue. This is a human rights issue.
I don't want to come across as the developer next door that does not want a homeless shelter.
All that being said, I was made aware of the RCO meeting the day after it happened.
Gwendolyn Lewis has owned and operated the church at 4007-11 Lancaster Avenue for 40 years.
She called me.
We have grown to know each other just by building this building at 3965 Lancaster Avenue.
She has told me many times that her congregation appreciates the investment in the community
and they hope to have more investments in the community.
And she called me and explained to me what happened at the RCO meeting.
I was unaware of it.
The community was unaware of it.
She spoke in opposition and was told to leave the RCO meeting.
One other person spoke in opposition and they were told to leave the RCO meeting.
this was not a legal RCO meeting. I've been through RCOs and ZDAs before. None of this was
done correctly. And at the very least, they need to hold a legitimate RCO meeting. I know they have
the support of RCOs. They have the support of other pastors. I know that they're a responsible
organization. But this was at the very least not done correctly for RCO purposes. But moving past
that wendell and lewis who's been in this intersection for 40 years uh went around the
community talked to people about this no one no one was no one was aware of this no no please
you go please please you've been speaking for an hour and a half well let me let me speak hello
please do not interrupt i'm sorry and if you can summarize mr perlman that would be helpful
Yes, sir. Gwendolyn Lewis spoke with neighboring businesses, neighboring tenants. And if we held a legitimate RCO meeting, the actual community that is adjacent to this church would stand in opposition to this.
and after hearing about the plans to only allow 40 people in and to turn away anyone that doesn't
pass an intake process at 6 p.m. at night because they're too intoxicated to enter the establishment
or they're a recent criminal who was allowed on parole after murder where are these people
going to go and I don't want to sound insensitive but you can't attract people for dinner and then
put them back out on the street. It's a burden on the community. It's a burden on the
burden on the neighboring businesses. There's a church or church across the street. There is a
park in the center of the intersection that was built for children. And it's, it's difficult to
believe that this is going to be a positive benefit for the community. There are other
ways to address the serious issue of homelessness in Philadelphia.
of homelessness in philadelphia
thank you adam um if you had nothing else to add you did you also say that
um there was a bishop another person on the call that
gwendoline lewis correct gwendoline lewis said she could not be on the call
uh bishop maxwell is the pastor for her church and she said he might be on the
zoom call but that was an hour and a half ago is bishop maxwell here
i guess not kanya do we have anyone else waiting yes we would now call
samantha petty samantha you are now able to speak you can unmute yourself
Hi, I'm here.
Hi, Ms. Petty, it's Frank DiCicco.
Would you please identify yourself with a record name and address, spell your name?
My name is Samantha, S-A-M-A-N-T-H-A, Petty, P-E-T-T-Y, and I live at 4621 Pine Street,
19143.
Petty, do you swear and affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth?
Thank you.
Please proceed.
And if you can give us something new and different, that would be helpful.
Yeah, I have worked as both a rapid rehousing specialist in homeless shelters and also as an urban planner.
And I just wanted to comment that I'm in support of this proposal.
I think it's a great idea, especially given the location and the historic place where Martin Luther King gave his speech to continue to do his work at this church.
And I think that the proposal for sure will be vetted by LNI.
like every other homeless shelter,
many of which exist in church basements,
but that I find it quite common,
the kind of setup that they are proposing here
in many shelters I've worked in
that have been very successful.
So I feel confident in this proposal
and I just wanted to add my testimony.
Thank you very much.
Any, anyone else, Tanya?
No chair, that's all.
Mr. Horowitz, Mr. Toppin, anything further to say
briefly please if you have anything further i do appreciate the the attention of the board
and to hearing my my client chosen three 300 ministries present and all the support that's
there i would only take due opposition to testimony of a hearsay nature that we heard
from Mr. Perlman. I know that he's hardly be in the right place, but in his proceeding,
we really need firsthand oppositional testimony, and he did not provide that. He talked about
people who told him what happened in the meeting that he was present at, and that's not fair to
us. You can't cross-examine those. But I do want to say that I think the clear message is that
this mission is an extension of this mission of chosen it needs to do this mission for its charter
for its donors and that creates an economic hardship of the of the in using the property
as it is it can only it could only pursue this mission in this space in this basement lower area
that creates an area where the hardship is of the land as mr. Horowitz has been has mentioned earlier
We know that there are barriers and various issues regarding this space itself for it to be safe,
and we know that LNI, as Ms. Petty so properly mentioned, will make sure that before a certificate
A hardship of the land is something like a slanted land or something, and it can't be self-created.
So it can't be, we use this part of the property for something else, so we can't use that area.
We've got to use this area. That's self-created.
So the statute is clear. There's no hardship.
It would also need to show the applicant that there's no other possible uses that there's under strict conformity of the code.
And here, there's been testimony that Mr. Jenkins didn't even look at the code to see what other uses are allowed.
And in fact, that he's also been using the property for decades for a permitted purpose.
And therefore, there can be no zoning variance if it can possibly be used in that matter.
I've been in front of this board in my office and people before me for many years.
And we've always seen this board require much more information than this.
You can't simply just handwrite on the plans.
This is where this new use is going to be.
And it is a new use.
It's a big difference from what is going on there.
And it's going to be a big impact.
You heard Mr. Perlman testify that this is going to impair the use of his brand new apartment building that was just built next door.
That's another requirement of a variance that wasn't met.
It can't have a variance if it impairs the appropriate use or development of an adjacent property.
Here there was clear testimony.
Then there's a safety issue.
There's a government.
There's a shutdown.
No more than 25 people until next February.
But more than that, they're just going to put all these people down in a basement with no windows.
it's not safe and this board should insist on more and and the variance requirements are not
met so it should simply be denied thank you um okay thank you chair we do have a couple other
hands that raised um ingrid um you're going to be unmuted now um you're allowed to speak
and you can go ahead and unmute yourself. Hi, this is Bernadette Weich. Ingrid is really my
first name, but it's Bernadette Weich, the ward leader of the 20th, Democratic ward leader of
the 24th ward. I host a meeting. That woman lied to that man because I had two RCO meetings that
day. And I, after the meeting was over, I let them know that this meeting is over because I have
another RCO meeting. And it wasn't in their district. And I asked them, I said, you could
leave now because the meeting was over. I know that this woman lied and it's wrong. It's wrong.
Okay. Bernadette, I think we get, we heard what you said. Appreciate you staying on. But
I think if you've been listening, one of the issues that we have as a board is the issue of
public, of safety, of the individuals. I understand that. That's an issue for us.
But we do appreciate you waiting and appreciate you commenting on this case.
So we have anything else. Thank you, Bernadette.
sure we do have a paulette adams who is now allowed to speak you can unmute yourself
and testify good afternoon miss adams almost good evening miss adams uh please state your
name for the record spell your name please sure my name is paulette s-p-a-u-l-e-t-t-e
last name is adams a-d-a-m-s and i've been for this board in times past uh in another capacity
I was your address. I need your address. Oh, I'm sorry. It is 5320 Turner, T-U-R-N-E-R Street
in Philadelphia. The zip code is 19131. Okay. I'm just going to ask you, do you swear or affirm
to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? I do. Thank you. Please proceed,
Ms. Adams. Thank you. I've been before the board previously in another capacity
because I was director of community development under Councilwoman Blackwell.
And I did hear the new councilwoman's staff member say that they were not in office
when some of these meetings were taking place.
So I did feel that it was pertinent that I chime in and talk about some of the meetings
and some of the things that we were looking at with Chosen 300.
I did listen to the previous people testify so I won't kind of reiterate about their service and
you know their goodness but yeah yeah so I know everybody wants to go do other things
so I do want to point out though that there are a number of other entities who have embarked upon
this kind of work right there in the immediate area community council operated
right there in the immediate area.
Community Council operated community-based housing
right there in the 3,900 block of Lancaster Avenue.
People's Emergency Center,
whom I've had the privilege of working for before as well,
has housing, which is transitional housing,
right there at 4017 Lancaster Avenue
and also at 611 North 40th, 604 North 40th, and 612 North 40th. I know that, so there is, you know,
this consistency of being able to meet the need or try to meet the need, but we have more people
who need spaces. I do want to speak to the fact that it is not that there are always people who
need permanent housing. Sometimes there are people who need a few nights until they can get into
their senior residence or until they can get into an apartment or something like that. The other
point I'd like to make about the new building, that's fine and I understand that they may feel
like this creates a hardship with more temporary or transient as people would like to say sometimes
people coming into the neighborhood but they are new in the neighborhood. This type of use
is not new now on to the matter of safety i would like to ask the board to consider um a proviso
and saying giving them time to be able to come up with some plans to work with an architect
and perhaps to also work with the people who are over in pec and people's emergency center
who are building housing to look at um what their look at their plans and look at how they can add
those windows in. This building was traditionally a bank building, which is why it's built like a
tank. And I understand that there may be some challenges with the windows, but there are things
that can be surmounted because we have seen groups like People's Emergency Center who build housing
and who refurbish housing take on larger challenges as well so that they then could
fulfill their mission. So I'm sure I did send a text to James Wright, who was a vice president
over at People's Emergency Center, and, you know, let him know that I was going to be on this call.
And they are certainly open to having that conversation with Chosen 100 and perhaps
helping them with some of their resources and their expertise in figuring out how to make this
a safer space. And even if this had to be, if the hearing or the outcome had to be postponed,
I think that would be a little bit better in allowing us a moment or allowing the-
Chairman, I was going to let this go on, but since it's going on, I'm going to like to object as the
standing of this witness. I believe Ms. Adams said that she lives at 5320 Turner Street. I looked that
up on Google, it's 2.2 miles from the property. Okay. So I would like to say in response to that,
that I also did say that I was the director of community development under Councilwoman Blackwell
while all of this was being formulated. And the new council person, Councilwoman Gaudier's
staff member did testify that he had not had an opportunity to attend meetings or to catch up on
the project the councilwoman herself had not because they were newly appointed. So I do have
standing because I have been a part of these conversations with Chosen 300. You speak from
experience and I'm familiar with that. Correct. Your testimony is allowed. Thank you.
Is that it Ms. Adams? Yes. So I would ask that the board would consider even postponing to give
them an opportunity to perhaps have that conversation with the people at People's
Emergency Center who can help them maybe conceptualize a little bit better for the
board and for all those who are involved to look at how they can put in the windows and have this
plan since they do own properties that are just adjacent to those buildings on 40th Street, in
that block of 40th Street and on Lancaster Avenue at 4017 and in that 600 block as well as in the
with the group who was doing this type of housing and who is their neighbor, then I think perhaps
they could come up with something that would be, you know, a little more suitable. Thank you. Thank
you. And I do consider you an expert witness, by the way, because of your years with Councilwoman
Blackwell. Thank you. Thank you so much. All right. Tanya? That would be all, Chair. Very good. Thank
you um questions from the board now uh mr chairman yes if we would hold this uh project
i would tell the uh the the counselor to maybe look into doing another floor
instead of using the basement for sleeping add another floor and use that for sleeping
i had a somewhat similar question i never got to ask was about what whatever the square footage is
on each of the other floors the first floor and the and the second floor i believe it was
uh one one area is being used for staff and the other is where meals are served
uh i don't know if there's a way of flipping that stuff but what i'm going to recommend
let's hear from the planning commission tom and i'll come right back to you
planning commission hey um yeah this property is indicated for neighborhood commercial mixed
use on the city plan you have no objection to the granting events all right what i was thinking
uh to my board members my fellow board members is maybe we uh we hold this for discussion for
next week in our executive session. I had some questions. Again, for me, it's all about public
safety. There's no other issue that is in my mind, unless you want to vote on it. The majority
rules here. I'm for voting on it, but the majority rules.
Tom, confessor
Whatever you guys want to do
I would rather
Tom did you want to say something all right I'm flip-flopping I apologize I've
been a little rusty we haven't been doing this for a while so I'm gonna call
the vote all right what will miss Chabot just just before you call the
vote just before you please cliffhanger cliffhanger if and this is nothing that
I certainly am in no position to pre-judge what or see the future of what the vote will be.
But if the vote is not in favor, that would cost a year of time before our client could return to this particular application.
We would probably be more inclined to withdraw it and to start over.
That would more quickly bring this to the board in a more descriptive way.
We would be willing to do that than have it.
if that works for you i i could i would i would agree to that i just again i was just
no matter what you do it's going to take time i mean if you had to get contractors in and get
estimates and the cost of of making the basement uh safe for you for human habitation overnight
and stuff like that so uh if you want to withdraw that i i would be willing does the board agree on
that would the board agree to withdrawing and then they'll have to figure out all right so make
make it formal um my client is raising his hand and much
you're on yeah i just have one one question as far as a window is concerned
um i guess in 1964 when the building was acquired by the previous church
there there's a window that is in the basement but it has been filled but and it's it's one
window and we don't have i don't have the expertise on that it's one window i hear what you're saying
well there is there's two windows actually all right yeah i'm not saying that this is
mass incarceration but it's similar to it another two and two minutes we'll have three windows i
think i appreciate what you're going where you're going reverend uh but i think well no i just want
to bring clarity to what we have
i think your attorney's on the right track he's doing a good job for you um at this time um mr
chair in all that we've heard in testimony i think it's prudent and i think my client will
agree, even when we have further discussions, that it makes more sense at this juncture to
withdraw the current application, regroup as far as our safety concerns, and then represent this
when the time is more opportune, else we risk a year before we can begin again. And that's not,
I don't think that's in the best interest of Chosen 300 this time.
Yeah, we're trying to be helpful as best we can. But so I would agree. Any objection to
the request to withdraw this case no no granted and thank everyone for their testimony
thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you mr horvitz thank you members of the board
thank you that the last case we have any more cases I don't have the list in
front of me yeah that was it that was it Frank yes chair we're good to go we're
all good sir and remind all that are here that next week cases start at 9 30
a.m. at the regular scheduled time thank you can uh you make sure we get up i didn't get the
listing for today so we'll take care of it thank you appreciate it of course anything for you
confessor thought i was in your favor tanya while we're on i i understand that yellow roses are your
favorite flower i think could you move a little bit to your right professor thank you all right
thank you everyone and have a good night
thank you very kindly
oh you're welcome