COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 3, 2008 12:10 p.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILMAN BILL GREEN COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR. COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL COUNCILWOMAN MARIA QUINONES-SANCHEZ COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO BILLS 080875 and 080857 RESOLUTIONS 080911 and 080912 - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
This is the public hearing of the Committee of the Whole. I would ask Mr. McPherson to please read the title of Resolution No. 7 080911. MR. McPHERSON: Resolution No. 9 080911, resolution appointing Gary Brandeis to the Board of Directors of the City Avenue Special Services District of Philadelphia and Lower Merion.
No, he's not, Madam President. We have Terry Foley from the Center City District.
Well, this is your bill, Councilman. Perhaps you would like to tell us something about Mr. Brandeis and why he believes he would want to be on the City Avenue Special 3 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Services District.
Madam President, what I'd like to do is allow Terry Foley talk about him, but I would like to talk about the Center City District a bit. I am pleased and proud to be able to say that in the City Avenue District it is a classic, classic cooperation between suburbs and urban development on mutual interests, which is a commercial corridor. It's about a three, three and a half mile corridor connecting Bala Cynwyd to Philadelphia, and the idea there is to create a vibrant corridor that increases density without increasing too much inconvenience and traffic. It is a cleaner, safer, more productive by way of tax revenue corridor than it ever has been, and, therefore, the prior Councilperson lit a bridge of City Avenue to the suburbs and I want to continue keeping it moving in the right 4 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. direction. And to that degree, I welcome Terry Foley, who is the head of the City Avenue District.
Thank you. Very briefly, just so everyone is aware, to follow up with the Councilman's words, the District is a partnership between Philadelphia and Lower Merion Township. Our three main objectives are, number one, to improve public safety; number two, to enhance the area's image; and, third, to attract and shape development. We have two major initiatives underway, which is why it's so important we keep our Philadelphia Board complement up to date. One is a streetscape and safety capital improvement program, which involves lighting, pedestrian safety issues and traffic safety. And a second is the zoning overlay, which will 5 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. encourage pedestrian and transit-oriented development, urban mixed-use development, retail investment upgrading and higher density. Mr. Brandeis is the Managing Director of FB Capital Partners that are headquartered here in Philadelphia. This group acquired the Holiday Inn on Presidential Boulevard approximately three years ago. It was a problem property for us in the District. They've invested millions of dollars in what is now known as the Crowne Plaza Philadelphia Main Line. It is now a first-class property and definitely a complement to the City of Philadelphia. Mr. Brandeis' expertise is in real estate finance and development, which we will value very much in our quest to move forward with the District's initiatives.
Thank you. Any questions from members of 6 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. the Committee? (No response.)
Seeing none, I would ask Mr. McPherson to please read the title of Resolution No. 7 080912. MR. McPHERSON: A resolution 9 reappointing Michael Woodward to the Board of Directors of the City Avenue Special Services District of Philadelphia and Lower Merion.
Mr. Woodward is the President of Woodward Properties, which is headquartered in the District and in Philadelphia. He's been a very active Board member for five years. He serves as our Treasurer and also on our Executive Committee. He owns and operates several multi-family apartment communities in Philadelphia and he is 7 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. also the incoming President of the Apartment Owners Association of Greater Philadelphia.
Thank you. Can you tell us how often the Board meets?
The full Board meets three times a year, and extra special sessions, if necessary. Then we have a number of committees that meet multiple times a year.
Thank you. Any questions from members of the Committee? (No response.)
You're welcome. At this time, I would ask 8 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Mr. McPherson to please read the title of Bill No. 080857 -- I'm sorry. It's 75; is it not? MR. McPHERSON: Bill No. 6 080875, an ordinance authorizing the Commissioner of Public Property, on behalf of the City, to convey to the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development the parcels of land owned by the City in Pike and Monroe Counties, Pennsylvania that were formerly used by the City to operate Camp Happy, for further conveyance to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, acting by and through the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, for fair market value, under certain terms and conditions.
Thank you. Our first witness, Mr. McPherson? MR. McPHERSON: Commissioner Slawson. (Witness approached witness 9 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. table.)
Good afternoon. Kindly identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Good morning, Council President Verna and members of City Council. My name is Susan Slawson, Recreation Commissioner for the City of Philadelphia. I appear before you today to present testimony in support of Bill No. 080875, which authorizes the Commissioner of Public Property to convey Camp William Penn, formerly known as Camp Happy, to PAID for further conveyance at fair market value to the State Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. Camp William Penn is a 677-acre parcel of land located 82 miles from Philadelphia in Marshalls Creek, Pennsylvania in Monroe and Pike Counties. The Department of Recreation has managed this camp since 1951. 10 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. In Fiscal Year 2007, it cost approximately $450,000 to operate Camp William Penn. Though the facility can accommodate 720 youth per summer, only 313 children participated in the summer of 2007 at a cost of slightly more than 1,400 per camper for a one-week encampment. By contrast, the Recreation Department offered 151 summer programs at 142 facilities, which did not operate Camp William Penn this past summer due to a variety of reasons, including declining enrollment, unsafe conditions of the facility, the increasing cost to operate and maintain the camp, and difficulty in recruiting qualified camp counselors and seasonal staff. My testimony will briefly discuss the challenges the Department faces in operating and maintaining this facility as a summer camp for children. Declining camp enrollment: During the 1970s, the 1980s, the Department offered four two-week 11 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. encampments throughout the summer. Beginning in the early 1990s, camp enrollment began to decline, most likely due to the outdated facilities and overall substandard conditions. The Department reduced the length of the encampments from two weeks to one week in an effort to increase participation. In 2002, faced with an aging infrastructure and declining numbers of attendees, the Department again shortened the encampments to four nights and hired a full-time camp director to recruit children. Though total capacity of the camp for each summer is 720 children, there have not been more than 500 campers since 2002. Some of the one-week encampments have had as few as 34 campers. The total attendance for the past three summers is as follows: The summer of 2005, 417. The summer of 2006, 387. The summer of 2007, 313. It should be noted that in 2005 12 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. and 2006, the facility hosted a soccer club that accounted for 180 campers. Without the soccer club's encampment, attendance would have been only slightly more than 200 youth. Summer of 2008: For the summer of 2008, the Department of Recreation contracted with Outward Bound Philadelphia to offer a new program to potential campers, Adventure Leadership Program, ALP. The recruitment efforts were extensive. Flyers were mailed to 600 families. One hundred flyers were given to each City Council member. Flyers were distributed to the libraries, recreation facilities, and the information was placed on our website. ALP was a six-week skills clinic in camping, climbing, canoeing, environmental education and wilderness for young people. Campers learned leadership techniques, team work skills, outdoor ethics and self-discovery through technical mastery and real-life 13 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. experiences in and around Philadelphia's Fairmount Park. m. , with one overnight expedition. Lunch and snacks were provided. Outward Bound guaranteed 180 slots at $300 per camper. The camper paid $90, the same fee charged for Camp William Penn, and the Department paid the remaining 210. The Department filled 40 of the 180 slots.
Because we were unsuccessful in filling all 180 slots, we included youth in our Teen Center Camps, and each attended a one-day workshop during the summer. There were 210 youth that participated in the Teen Camp experience. In addition, the Department of Recreation offered encampment to Ladore Camp. Ladore Camp and Conference Center is located within the Mosaic Mountain Range 20 minutes from Scranton, Pennsylvania. It consists of more than 1,400 acres of pristine woodlands, trails 14 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. and a 265-acre lake, owned and operated by the Salvation Army since 1967. Week-long camp experiences were offered for children between the ages of 6 through 12. Campers were provided with a 7 wide range of activities that challenge and inspire them, such as arts and crafts, basketball, soccer, volleyball, fishing, music instruction, a working farm, overnight camping on a private island and hayrides. There is a ratio of five campers to one counselor. Two full-time registered nurses, Pennsylvania licensed, were on site and on 24-hour call. Ladore Camp provided transportation to and from the facility. Camp fees were $40 per child, and the Department paid the remaining 210. There were 400 slots available, with the same recruitment efforts as used for Adventure Leadership Program. Eighty-four campers attended. A total of 580 slots were available for Philadelphia youth, which 15 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. is slightly less than twice the number of children who went to Camp William Penn in 2007. For the coming summer, we will recruit extensively as before for the Adventure Leadership Program and explore opportunities with radio and television to spread the word about upcoming camping opportunities. Increasing operating costs: In Fiscal Year 2008, the costs to operate Camp William Penn included the following: Seasonal staffing and transportation costs, $345,000; full-time camp director, $55,000; maintenance, $50,000, for a total of $450,000. With a camp staff of 65 part-time seasonal employees and a total budget of $450,000, the price per camper is approximately $1,400. These costs, coupled with the liability of housing children over the course of one week at an outdated facility 80 miles from Philadelphia, presents a risk for the Department and the City. 16 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Deferred capital improvements and unsafe conditions: Over the past three years, the Recreation Department has made slightly more than 150,000 in capital improvements. A new roof on guest house was $50,000; a new roof on four cabins was 28,000; electrical, $20,000; new siding on Mess Hall, $30,000; new windows, $25,000, for a total of $153,000. If the City had operated Camp William Penn this past summer, the following capital improvements, at a minimum, would have been required in order for the camp to operate safety: New kitchen and appliances, $100,000; generators for emergency pumping of water, refrigeration, infirmary and access lighting, $120,000, for a total of $220,000. It should be noted that the entire kitchen structure, which is all wood, is very unsafe and has caught on fire in the past. Therefore, the Capital 17 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Program Office strongly recommended a complete replacement of the kitchen if the City continued to operate the camp. The dining hall needs to be replaced, and the cost to completely replace the dining hall is approximately $400,000. 5 million. This estimate does not include site improvements for roads, outdoor activity spaces, water facilities, utilities. It should be noted that there is only well water and a septic system that serves the site. Alternatives: Subsequent to the close of Camp William Penn earlier this year, a work group was convened by the Mayor's Office to consider the future operation of Camp William Penn. Participants included representative from the Recreation Department, Public Property, Commerce and Law.
Based on 18 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. various restrictions on the land, including zoning, a power line easement and lack of water and sewer infrastructure, combined with the fact that significant portions of the site are in the 100-year floodplain and that it borders State game lands, it was determined that the parcel should remain as park and recreational space. The opportunity to continue to provide overnight camping experiences for the City's youth was also a key goal. John Herzins, Deputy Commissioner for Public Property, will further explain the different options that were explored and the recommendations contained within Bill No. 19 080875. As I conclude my testimony, I would like to state for the record that as Recreation Commissioner, I am very excited by the opportunity this legislation presents to build on our partnership with the State DCNR. The 19 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. land will remain as open space and children will continue to have a camping experience. Yet, the City will not be burdened with the operating costs, deferred capital maintenance and the managerial challenges of overseeing a nearly 60-year-old seasonal facility 80 miles away from the City. I look forward to working with DCNR Secretary DiBerardinis and his staff to provide new and improved camping opportunities, as well as environmental, educational and recreational programs.
Thank you, Commissioner. With the Camp William Penn being sold, what programs has the City developed to help the Philadelphia children attend summer camp? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Well, some of the things I just mentioned were Camp Ladore, as well as --
Camp? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Camp 20 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Ladore, L-A-D-O-R-E. And we offered opportunities this summer for --
What is Camp Ladore? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: I'll go back. Camp Ladore and Conference Center is located within the Mosaic Mountain Range minutes from Scranton, 11 Pennsylvania. It's also an outdoor 12 camping opportunity as well, just like 13 Camp William Penn. 14
And 15 who owns Camp Ladore? 16 COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: It's 17 owned by the -- it's been run by the 18 Salvation Army. 19
Oh. 20 And do we know what the cost per camper will be? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Yes. The camp fees for Camp Ladore were $40 for the children, and the Department of Recreation paid the other remaining $210. 21 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. And we had 400 slots for Camp Ladore, Madam President, and we were only able to fill 84 of those slots.
Why is that, do you think? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: We did major recruiting for these camps, and for various reasons, parents and young people are not interested in going out and staying out overnight and going on these overnight camps.
Thank you, Madam President. Commissioner Slawson, maybe you know or perhaps Public Property may know. Have we surveyed the land to see if there's any opportunities for natural gas exploration there? I know that a lot of more rural areas people own hunting lodges and camp sites that have found, after some investigation, that from time to time there's natural gas deposits on 22 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. their land, and they've actually set up kind of like a mom-and-pop gas provision shop, and I'm wondering with the acreage that big, whether or not we've ever looked at that. Before we convey it to the State, perhaps there's something under there that we can make a profit from. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: We didn't look into it. Actually, Councilman, we have never looked into that opportunity, no. 14
I would urge you to do that. I mean, my own -- I have people in my family that are involved in a hunting lodge up in Tioga County and they found, through exploration, that they had some natural gas deposits and are actually selling it to either the local municipality or the county. And I would think with almost 700 acres of land, there might be a shot that there's something there. And even if we convey the open space to the State 23 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. for recreational purposes but maintain some ownership rights over the possibility that the gas exists, it's certainly the time to kind of sell that stuff right now. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Okay. We can look into it.
Councilman, I'm sorry. I was distracted. Are you finished?
Good morning, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Good morning, Councilman Jones.
I too want to know if the Clampetts have moved up into that area and if we have some black crude under the ground, Texas tea or something, before we go selling that land. 24 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. A couple of serious questions, though. Have we -- and let me preface my remarks by saying I totally trust your judgment by way of what is best for the young people's camp experience this summer. That is not even up for discussion when it comes to you. I've toured with you. I've heard your passion as we looked at some of the recreation facilities, and on the record, I'm very comfortable with that. The questions I have are, did we consider ever leasing the land as opposed to outright selling the land and if there was a market for leasing? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: That's actually going to be part of my testimony, Councilman.
Okay. Let's put a pin in that one. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Okay.
And I understand we will be receiving, if this 25 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. goes through, $1.36 million and we will be saving about $450,000 worth of expense. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: That's correct.
Have you pre-determined what those revenues and savings would be applied towards, and is, kind of steering your answer, any of that going to the Robin Hood Dell? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Well, currently that's not part of my budget, so I can't steer it anywhere.
Okay. That's a safe answer. But I understand in the Dell we are a little short -- COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: That's correct.
-- on some construction dollars and we're looking at options when it comes to the Dell East, and we want some of those thoughts to be given to that summer experience. We won't be able to go up to Camp William 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Penn, but we can maybe make it to the Dell this summer if we can get some of those proceeds directed that way. Is that at least something that is up for discussion? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: It's up for discussion.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Thank you, Madam President. Let me echo Councilman Jones' remarks regarding our confidence in knowing that you've done the best that you can with regards to camp experiences for young people. I'm interested in knowing what institutional plans are in place for ensuring that young people can continue 27 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. to have those type of experiences going forward. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: We're going to continue to offer the same opportunities that we offered this summer as far as Camp Ladore and Outward Bound, and we're going to continue our efforts in recruiting extensively to try to get our young people and possibly get people that they're comfortable with, their parents, to join, because we're just not able to get -- we actually have 400 slots and we were paying the $210 and their parents only had to pay $40 for Camp Ladore, and we were only able to fill 84 slots. Outward Bound is an experience that the young people can do right here in Philadelphia. We had four days and one overnight, and we were even unsuccessful at filling those slots. So we have been offering. We are willing to take the major portion of the cost, and we still have been unable 28 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. to get our young people interested in staying overnight and being involved in environmentally sound educational opportunities.
So two follow-up questions. You say you're going to continue. So that means that there's a tangible, formal agreement with Outward Bound and Camp Ladore? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Yes. That's correct.
And recognizing the challenge that the Department faced this past summer, do you then plan on starting recruitment in January? Because recruitment actually -- recruitment, orientation, awareness, all of that has to start in January, capturing the attention of young people and parents in both traditional ways, through the rec centers, but non-traditional ways, through the School District and the religious community and non-profit organizations that are serving 29 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. young people, the Y's, the Girl Scouts, the Boy Scouts. Have you thought about the actual strategy you're going to use to ensure that we meet the mark? Because we have 200,000-plus young people in public schools, you factor in the charter schools, looking for safe, structured, stimulating places for their young people to be during the summer. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: As a matter of fact, we've had that conversation. As a part of our PhillyStat presentations, we are pretty much required to show how we're going to plan for the next year, and we've already put a plan in place to begin our recruiting for a number of our summer programs in March and January.
All right. March I think is late. I really do believe, given my experience having done recruitment, right after Martin Luther King's birthday, things need to hit the 30 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. street. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Okay.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Green.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Good afternoon, Councilman.
I too am wondering about the Marcellus Shale, which is the land in the northeastern part of the State where a lot of natural gas has been trapped. I have clients that have been paid $2,000 per acre on an option, which is not the sale of the land, which option will renew and require $2,000 payments on each acre, and that it is before the gas companies have determined whether or not there's 31 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. actually gas there. So, frankly, until we have the answer to that question, I don't think the City of Philadelphia should be selling this land. That's 1.4 million for several years we could get while the gas companies are looking at the possibility of gas being there. Can we get an assurance if we pass this bill out today from the Administration that you will look at dealing with some of the brokers from the gas companies, getting bids for the land for the mineral rights, and if there is money there, reserving the mineral rights for the City of Philadelphia prior to conveying this land to the State of Pennsylvania? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Councilman, since the question was asked earlier, my attorney, Henry Schwartz, came up and told me that in 1856, there's a clause in the lease that we do own the land, but there is -- we've given away the rights or we do not have the right to 32 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. the underground.
I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: I can have him come up. I can read you the clause.
I'm sorry. Our deed -- COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes. So the question about whether or not we have an opportunity to investigate whether or not we have some monies there related to fuel, gas, I think the answer is, we don't have the right to do that.
My name is Henry Schwartz with the City of Philadelphia Law Department. Councilman, there's been -- the property before we took title, they entered into an agreement. So our ownership is under an agreement dated November 22, 1845 that reserved all the ores, minerals and mines. Now, I haven't done an analysis about whether that includes natural gas or not, but with 33 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. respect to essentially the coal rights, which is often the way it was done in those days, they were separated from the land rights. So we would have to look at the issue of whether natural gas is included in that reservation or not, which we can do.
So then my question still stands. Assuming we own the natural gas rights, can we get a commitment that we'll look at that possibility for revenue prior to conveying it to the land and reserving it if there is revenue? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: The answer is, as Commissioner of Public Property, I think the answer is we can, but I definitely will make sure I check with the Administration. I don't see why we wouldn't want to do it, though.
Do you know 34 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. what the fastest growing county in Pennsylvania is? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: I do not. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: I do not.
It's Pike County, where this land is. It grew about 60 percent in the last decade and about percent so far in the 2000 to 12 2006 period. Many, many people from New 13 York are moving there. In fact, there 14 was an article in the New York Times 15 about that on January 22, 2006. 16 Why is the land worth so 17 little, I guess my question is, $1.36 18 million, when that is where a ton of New 19 York development is going on in Pike 20 County? 21 COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: The site 22 straddles three different townships and 23 has at least four different zoning 24 classifications, but the majority of the 25 land, 69 percent, is zoned Open Space 35 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Conservation District.
And that gets to my question. This hearing was delayed for hours because there were people in here requesting a zoning change so that they could develop some property. So my question is, did the City of Philadelphia consider going before those townships and requesting a zoning change so that residential development could happen there and we could maximize the value of this property? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Councilman, I'm going to ask Deputy Commissioner John Herzins to come up. He's a lot more familiar with the specifics on the real estate issue. (Witness approached witness table.) DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Councilman, in addition to the -- we didn't approach certainly a zoning change in those two townships. I mean, there are a lot of issues to consider with 36 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. that. We wouldn't be -- I don't want to use the word "presumptuous," but we didn't want to determine how these townships felt they wanted to have their zoning. However, that being said, there are other issues besides -- there's the lack of public roads. There's the lack of utilities. All of those would probably work towards developing it anything but conservation.
Well, I mean, that's what developers do. All over Pike County they come into farms where there's no roads and no 17 infrastructure and they put it in as part of a development. So I guess the answer to the question is, we did not explore zoning changes that would maximize the value of the land as residential or otherwise prior to entering into an agreement with the State? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: 37 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. No, because one of the goals in our request during this whole process was to make sure there remains on that land recreational and camping opportunities for children.
Why is that a goal? I mean, as fiduciaries we have an obligation to maximize the money that we receive from the sale of our public lands. How did that priority or goal come into place versus trying to maximize the dollars we receive at a time when we're closing libraries, et cetera? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Well, the decision -- there was a committee that worked on this, and the decision was made to get a fair market value as presently -- as it presently stands zoning, to look at making sure that whoever ends up with the property still provides opportunities for recreational. Those were the two decisions we were working toward.
Do you think 38 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. that that's responsible in this time of crisis? I mean, do we not have a duty to our citizens to maximize the value of property that we sell that's not in the City of Philadelphia? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Councilman, I think the answer is, we always look towards making the most profit for the taxpayers, but often other circumstances come into play which overrule the "I just want to get the most money" scenario.
So we're choosing green space somewhere outside Philadelphia instead of resources that can help us keep open libraries and rec centers? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Well, actually, no, I don't think that I'm doing that and I don't think it was a conscious decision made by anyone else to do that. When this whole thing --
But that's the effect of what's happening. 39 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Well, I think given what has happened in the past six or eight weeks, yes, I guess you could take that slant, but that is not the intent, nor was it the desire at the beginning of this process.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Sanchez.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to echo some of the issues of concern and then why we are where we are today. Notwithstanding what I believe to be somewhat of a historical failure and at some point deliberate attempt to really sabotage Camp William Penn. From someone who has worked with young people for a very long time, I've never run into a young person who is not interested in 40 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. that type of experience. So I had some really big concerns and reservations around the move that we were making, but also understood that there was a lot of infrastructure investment that we needed to make locally in our own rec centers and that, for the short term, I understood that there was not the commitment or the resources at this time for us to run this programming. But I say that on the record because as we move forward, as we see it with the Robin Hood Dell, as we see it here, sometimes people make decisions that they don't want to do certain things, so they slowly kill it, and I think that's what we did with Camp William Penn. That said, I want to thank the Administration for allowing both Councilman Clarke, a representative from Councilman Jones' office and others and the Commissioner of Public Property. We went up there and looked at the facility, 41 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. and it is a beautiful, beautiful piece of land and property and one that I would argue to my colleagues should be kept as open space and, more importantly, that the property and its potential for providing programming not only for Philadelphia young people but for the State be tried to be maintained and preserved. And for that, I want to publicly thank Secretary DiBerardinis, who very early on expressed an interest, also met with us and committed that they would do what they can to maintain it as open public space and where there are opportunities to partner with organizations who could provide youth programming, both for Philadelphia and Pennsylvania's young people, that they were going to maximize and do that. And that's why as much as I think we didn't need to get here, understanding our current financial realities, understanding why the City would want to dispose of it, but I'm more 42 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. comfortable because the State will be able to take the 667 acres and add it to current publicly held land adjacent to this and their commitment to keep open space and provide opportunities for other young folk. So I want to put that on the record. Thank you.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.
Thank you. Good morning. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Good morning.
I'd just like for you to explain to me what are we doing. We are conveying this land to PAID? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Actually, I have not given my testimony yet, but I think when I do, it will be clear what the options are. 43 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc.
Okay. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: I haven't read my testimony.
Could we hear hers. Then maybe it will clarify some of the questions I have.
Councilman Rizzo, did you want to ask questions of the Commissioner, the Commissioner of Recreation, or would you prefer waiting until the Commissioner of Public Property has had an opportunity to testify?
I think I'll wait, because the question might be answered in her testimony.
Point of 44 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. order. If I could ask the Recreation Commissioner, the money that's coming from the sale of land, does it go back to the Recreation Department? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: General Fund.
Is that what the committee recommended? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Actually, that's just the way it works.
That's part of your -- COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: That's basically what happens. It is not a particular sale. All sales, they go to the General Fund.
Right. Okay. Thank you. I'll wait until you finish. 45 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Don't forget me. I was before him.
Commissioner, do you want to testify at this point. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Good morning, Council President Verna and members of the Committee on the Whole. My name is Joan Schlotterbeck. I'm the Commissioner of Public Property. I'm here today to testify in support of Bill 13 No. 080875, an ordinance authorizing me as the Commissioner, on behalf of the City, to convey to the Philadelphia Authority for Industrial Development the parcel of land owned by the City in Pike and Monroe Counties, Pennsylvania that were formerly used by the City to operate Camp William Penn, formerly known as Camp Happy, for further conveyance to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, acting by and through the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, for fair market value, under certain terms 46 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. and conditions. Camp William Penn is located partly in Monroe County and partly in Pike County. The total land area of the property is 671 acres, reflecting a primary camp site of 160 acres and an excess land area of 511 acres. The subject property encompasses five zoning classifications across three municipalities. Much of the land is within some form of a conservation classification, limiting the use and development on the site. Public utilities are limited to electric and telephone. Significant portions of the site are located in a floodplain. Most of the soil types limit agricultural and building uses due to the slow permeability and rocky surfaces. A power line easement and various road easements crisscross the site. The increasing operational costs, the necessary capital improvement costs and the declining enrollment led 47 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. the Department of Recreation to cease operations at the camp earlier this year. With a goal of finding alternative methods of providing camp opportunities for our children, we considered three options for the future reuse of the camp. The first option would be for the City to reopen and manage the camp. The Recreation Commissioner has demonstrated that the costs needed to make this facility safe and desirable make this a costly option. The Recreation Department has also found it increasingly difficult to recruit camp counselors and part-time staff. With the facility 80 miles away, it is also very difficult to perform the appropriate oversight and guarantee basic security of the property. The second option would be for the City to lease the property to an operator who could run the camp. The poor condition of the facility would make it impossible to agree on terms that 48 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. would be beneficial to the City. There was also discussion about marketing the site to groups who are interested in using the space for recreational purposes, such as running camps or soccer camps. This option would result in marketing and lease management costs, as well as a need for the capital improvements. The third option would be to sell the property. The discussion initially focused on issuing an RFP for the parcel, as well as reaching out to the State to gauge their interest, since the property was bordered by Commonwealth game lands. The outreach to the State through the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources' Secretary Michael DiBerardinis was very positive and it became readily apparent that a transaction with the State could be beneficial to all parties, including the children of Philadelphia. The Commonwealth of 49 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Pennsylvania has agreed to purchase the parcels and ensure that conservation and recreational uses continue on the land. The Commonwealth is in discussions with the YMCA, Outward Bound and other groups to provide camping opportunities for the site. million hundred thousand proceeds representing the fair market value established by an appraisal will be deposited into the General Fund.
The estimated annual operating budget of $450,000 will also be eliminated from the Department of Recreation's current obligations. The Department of Public Property supports this measure and, accordingly, I respectfully ask that City Council approve Bill No. 080875. I am also requesting a suspension of the rules so as to allow for first reading at the next session of Council. Thank you. Myself, Deputy Commissioner and the Recreation 50 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Commissioner will be happy to answer any questions.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.
Thank you very much. If we sell the land to the State, once they own the land, we have no -- we don't have any further jurisdiction over how they proceed to use this land, do we? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Actually, can I -- I was remiss. There is someone here from the State representing DCNR and I'd like to introduce him so he can join us at the table here. His name is Dan Devlin. (Witness approached witness table.)
Who obtained the appraisal? The City? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: 51 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Yes.
And this was the fair market value? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Yes.
As it presently exists? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Yes.
Could it increase in value in later time, later years? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Well, with all the restrictions on the site and limiting the development of the site, it would be pretty hard to do anything but keep it as open space. So the value right now we see is actually decreasing.
That's the limit on the site. Now, they've -- determined by the counties? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Right. They have elected to keep it 52 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. zoned open conservation. Also it borders the Commonwealth game lands also. So that's why the State here would be a perfect partnership with us to continue our opportunities there.
So, sir, tell me the position of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. What is your position about this land and maybe possible future use?
My name is Dan Devlin. I'm Director of the Bureau of Forestry within the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. I'm here representing Secretary DiBerardinis, who unfortunately has some budget hearings today, which otherwise he would be here. Our intent for the land -- number one, it's a great acquisition in terms of the Commonwealth. Camp William Penn actually borders State forest lands on both sides, so it actually creates a corridor between two great big blocks of 53 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. public lands. So it's a very critical piece, from our perspective, in terms of acquisition, and at least keep an open space for future uses in terms of recreation. So, in other words, we can do trail connections between the two great big blocks. We can open the area up for all kinds of hiking, fishing, those kinds of things. In terms of the -- that is our intent. In terms of the camp itself, it is our intent to work with the Y, other groups as well and as well as the Recreation Department and try and provide some amenities in terms of youth education, youth programming and perhaps camping as well. So we are in negotiations with the Y and we are working with the Recreation Department as well. So our intent is to use this as State forest lands, open to the public, lots of recreational use, and hopefully 54 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. get the camp facility up and operating in some capacity in the future.
Ms. Slawson, you're going to save $450,000 in your operating budget. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: That's correct.
What are you going to do with the money? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: The money is already not a part of my budget.
It's not part of your budget? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: It is not. Because we did not operate this last summer --
It was not in your -- COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: It was not in my budget, no. 25
All right. 55 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Thank you very much.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just so I understand, this transaction, when it occurs, it goes to the State. At that point, if an operator of a camp, a camp company, came to the State, there's nothing that we could do after it's transferred to stop that transaction from occurring? Not that that would happen. That's just a scenario. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Councilman, I'm not clear. Are you suggesting that the State would turn around and sell it?
In other 56 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. words, it's a camp right now. It's not in good repair. But now this is getting some publicity that maybe it didn't get when we in fact came up with this idea to transfer it to the State. It sounds like a good idea to me. We get a new governor that doesn't think like this one. All of a sudden, some operator of a camp -- what do they call it, KAA, whatever they call it, KOA, comes to the State and said, Look, you've got this camp, we want to buy it. Is there anything in the State's regs that will prevent that from being sold? I'm asking the State that. Could you sell this after we transfer it to you?
By law we cannot sell State forest land or State parkland unless we get an act of the Legislature that allows us to do so. So it would have to go through a whole legislative process. We have not sold State forest land for the over hundred years that I 57 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. know of so far, but that's not to say it will never happen. But it certainly is not our intent to sell the land, and we'd have to go through a legislative process in order for it to be transferred.
There's a lot of things that develop along the way that changes. Let me ask you this: Once you take it over, you did say that you plan to intend to use it as a camp in some capacity. What's that mean?
The majority of the land, the large portion of land, will become part of State forest lands and will be open to the public for recreation, fishing, boating, hiking, all those things. The camp area itself where the facilities are, where the infrastructure is, we are trying to negotiate with the YMCA, also Outward Bound as well and maybe some others in terms of forming a partnership where they can use the facilities and we can go into a long-term lease agreement or those 58 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. kinds of things with them to run a facility.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Green.
Thank you, Madam President. My question relates to transaction fees and expenses. I'm curious why we are -- I assume we have to transfer it to somebody, some organization. The City of Philadelphia can't sell land directly; is that the case? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: That's correct. I can't sell directly as the owner.
So why we chose the vehicle we've chosen to sell it versus some other authority or agency and what the transaction fees are, because 59 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. obviously the City has already negotiated this, we know what the price is --
Commissioner -- I'm sorry, Councilman. We could sell it directly, but we would have to put it out for bid; would we not? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: We'd have to do an auction.
So you could sell it directly. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yes.
It would have to be through a bid process. COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Right, or an auction. And we do not make a practice of doing that.
I learned something new today. That's great. Thank you. So why wouldn't we -- if we know we have a bidder at 1.36, why wouldn't we auction it? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: 60 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Because I guess the answer is because of what it is, what it represents. It's a conservation land. It's sitting right --
Okay. So we're not going to auction it. So what are the transaction fees that -- how much will the City net of the $1.36 million? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: That's a good question. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: It will be the 1.36, 1,360,000 minus the staff time that PAID works on completing the deal.
Charged at? Is there any agreement about what the fees are going to be associated with this? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: On this particular transaction, it would be -- it's -- we couldn't answer with a definite amount until we're billed, but it would be, I would guess, 10,000.
Ten thousand dollars for a deal that we've already 61 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. made with the State? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Yeah.
Thank you, Madam President. I heard the question asked, but I didn't hear the answer of who conducted the appraisal. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Councilman Goode, that was Kaiman's Associates (ph).
And when was it done? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: July of '05.
And how much did it cost? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: The price to get the appraisal? I'd have to get that.
Do you know 62 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. roughly how much it cost? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Ten thousand, maybe more.
So roughly 10,000. Is there any thought of doing another appraisal? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.
Is there any thought of doing another appraisal? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: This was, I believe, the second or third one. This is the latest one. There were earlier versions also.
But this was done in 2005. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Right.
Now, the legislation does not include an actual sales price, does it? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Fair market value established by the appraisal. 63 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc.
The testimony says the fair market value was seen to be 1.36 by the appraisal, but the legislation itself calls for fair market value. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Right.
So another appraisal could be done. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: You're asking why we should?
Another appraisal could be done and possibly should be done if we're approving it at fair market value as of December 2008. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Also the sale, there will be language in there restricting the use of it, so the value probably would be less if it would include the deed restrictions in there.
But my point was just two simple points. One, the legislation does not include an actual dollar amount. That's correct? 64 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Correct.
And that, two, fair market value was established back in July 2005. It has not been established since that time; is that correct? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: That's correct. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HERZINS: Correct.
Don't you think values have gone down significantly since '05? COMMISSIONER SCHLOTTERBECK: Actually, I don't do enough as a private citizen. I really don't feel qualified to answer that, but what I can tell you the practice is -- one would assume that that would be the case. When we do more than one appraisal, we then take the average between the two. So we could end 65 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. up with a lesser value. That's just our practice. It's not that we can't do it. We just did not do it.
Very well. Are there any other questions from members of the Committee? (No response.)
Thank you. Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
No. The only thing I would like to add, though, is, I think it's a great opportunity for both the citizens of the Commonwealth as well as potentially maybe the City as well. 66 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. So I look at it as a very nice marriage, and hopefully you will look favorably on the issue.
Thank you very much. Thank you. Since we have no one else to testify on this bill, this will conclude our public hearing. We will now go into our public meeting, and at this time -- I would like everybody's attention, please. The noise level is much too high. I would like to remind everyone that we also have Bill No. 080857 on our list for a public meeting. You may all recall that this bill was previously considered at a hearing on November the 19th, 2008 and we had indicated at that time that we would then list it for our next public meeting. So at this time, I would like Mr. McPherson to read Bill No. 080857. MR. McPHERSON: An ordinance 25 amending Title 12 of The Philadelphia 67 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Code, entitled "Traffic Code," to revise the fees for the use of parking meters in certain locations; to revise fees and charges for the immobilization and impoundment of vehicles for parking and other violations; and to revise the penalties for various parking violations; all under certain terms and conditions.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. In your packet you will find an Administration-sponsored amendment, which I support. This is instead of the amendment that we initially drafted and submitted last week. This will allow the parking meter rates in University City to go up by 50 cents in January and another 50 cents January 2010. This was an agreement. Of course, the -- it was also agreed that we would have the meeting where we could 68 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. find out what it's really all about, because that didn't happen in our first meeting. So that was part of it that the Administration agreed to. So we look forward to having an immediate meeting to understand why some 43,000 students in my district, what it means and get some understanding. But we're happy to work with it. We're asking the Committee to support it, and everything is fine.
Councilwoman, I believe we all have copies of the -- does everybody have a copy of the amendments?
It's on the third page. It's on Page No. 3 at the bottom. It would be 3 (b). So we ask that this amendment be adopted.
Well, then can we give everybody an opportunity to --
Thank you. Absolutely. Absolutely. 69 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc.
All right, Councilwoman. You would have to make a motion.
Thank you, Madam President. I move for the adoption of the amendment. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that the amendment be adopted. All in favor will indicate by saying aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and the motion carries. The Chair recognizes 70 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. Councilwoman Tasco for a motion regarding Bill No. 080858.
Madam President, I move that Bill 080857, as amended, be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation and that the rules of Council --
-- (continued) rules of Council be suspended so this bill can be heard at Council's next session. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 21 080857 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation, as amended; further, that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. 71 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. All in favor will indicate by saying aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and the motion carries. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco regarding Bill No. 12 080875.
Madam President, I move that Bill 080875 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation and that the rules of Council be suspended so the bill 18 can be heard at Council's next session. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 22 080875 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation; further, that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next 72 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. session of Council. All in favor will indicate by saying aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and the motion carries. The Chair again recognizes Councilwoman Tasco regarding Resolution 13 No. 080911.
Madam President, I move that Resolution 080911 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Resolution 080911 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation. All in favor will say aye. (Aye.) 73 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc.
The ayes have it and the motion carries. Again, the Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco regarding Resolution 9 No. 080912.
Madam President, I move that Resolution 080912 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Resolution No. 080912 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation. All in favor will say aye. (Aye.)
The 74 12/3/08 - WHOLE - BILL 080875, etc. ayes have it. The motion carries. That concludes our public meeting. Thank you all for your patience. (Committee of the Whole adjourned at 1:15 p.m.) - - - 75 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on December 3, 2008, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)