I'm not saying overlook laws; I'm saying that they should have the -- in the end, they should have, at least at the Zoning Board level, should have the final say, at the Zoning Board level. And if someone wants to appeal that decision, they can appeal it at Court of Common Pleas Court, not at the Zoning Board. 218 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629
If we have standing, if we have standing. And that's what we're talking about today.
No, no. The court could still decide, as far as I'm -- and I'm not an attorney, so I think somebody else could answer that. I'm not sure. I mean, I'll let the lawyers tell me that one. I believe they would still have standing. At least a City resident would have standing, I believe, maybe not a non-City resident. But, again, I'm not an attorney, so I'll look to the legal minds to give me an answer on that. But thank you for being here, and we had a great conversation last night via telephone, and thank you for coming today.
Just one comment 219 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 about Councilman DiCicco's statement. I think you are introducing a whole new element that may cause far more protracted legislation. Every case will first be involved in this test of standing, and so that instead of simplifying and maybe speeding up and expediting the Zoning Board and courts' handling of matters, you're introducing a second element that's going to complicate things and probably delay things. I'm just suggesting that you give that consideration, because the communities are not going to go quietly, they're not going to permit themselves to be muzzled, because heart of Philadelphia --
-- where they founded the nation was that people ought to have the freedom to express their views, and that's what we're talking about.
I am trying to be very patient. I saw the e-mail that went out, this Community Alert that the sky is falling. I am not putting a gag order -- this is not an attempt to put a gag order on anybody. 220 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629
It is not because I believe -- and many of the folks who are here today from my district believe I speak for the community. I want certain people -- I want it to be able to be discussed. I just have a problem at that Zoning Board level with somebody who just decides because the sun will be blocked on the Delaware and the sturgeon that are spawning up the Delaware from March -- February through March may be affected. And that, I think, poses a problem.
But, Councilman, don't express so little confidence in the courts. They will know when there's an appeal filed soley for a delay. The court is going to make the decisions.
Give the court the opportunity to hear every side -- 221 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629
Could i just make one final statement. I would just like to say as a community leader, the reverse usually happens from what we're hearing today. It's not so much a matter that we fight really hard for something and then have to fight against having that implemented. Believe me, 99 percent of the time, we're fighting something that's burdensome and onerous to us, not the reverse. So, I mean, just talking about the DePaul development, that -- (Applause.)
Marie LaChat and Carolyn Sutton, if they would both come up to the table. And if Robert Turino is with us, I would ask that he also approach the witness table. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good 222 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 afternoon. Kindly identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
My name is Marie LaChat, and I represent the Chestnut Hill Community Association. The Chestnut Hill Community Association strongly opposes the passage of Bill No. 000629. We are a Community Association which represents 10,000 residents/taxpayers of Chestnut Hill. We have hundreds of volunteers who work in some 30 committees in our association in order to keep our part of Philadelphia a vital, healthy neighborhood. We are an historic tourist destination, and we join the Germantown and Mt. Airy neighborhoods through the Northwest Coalition to advertising brochures that celebrate our neighborhood and the beauty of the City. We have many committees in our association that work very, very hard to maintain, protect, and improve the quality of life in our neighborhood. We believe that the passing of Bill No. 24 000629 will make the already-overwhelming job of caring for our neighborhood impossible and, in 223 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 fact, make some of our committees, such as our Land Use Planning Committee, Aesthetics Committee, and Development Review Committee obsolete. We will lose our power to participate in the process that decides the direction our neighborhood will take. No appeal power would mean no power at all, in our view, at the Zoning Board. This information has much been looked at through attorneys, land use planners, and zoning experts in our community. The following statement was written prior to hearing the testimony from the Managing Director's Office, but I'll say it anyway. I believe our mayor recognizes the importance of improving our neighborhoods in order to stem the flow of residents/taxpayers from our city and to encourage others to become new or returning residents of Philadelphia. I believe with the help of City Council, he can succeed, and so I would say, please support our mayor in these worthy goals and reject Bill 000629. This was unanimously supported by our Community Association executive board. However as a resident of Philadelphia, 224 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 lifelong, who's lived in many different neighborhoods in Philadelphia, I know well the job it takes to go to the Zoning Board, to be heard, and to defend against many of the predators that come into our communities. I would suggest those who have questioned what exactly blight is that you go to the counties, and perhaps even Washington Township, and they'll give you a real good definition of "blight," and my belief is, that will include billboards and that will include junked-up newsstands. Many are happy not to face this on a daily basis. The concerns about raising money for children is everybody's concerns. Might I say, the word "elitist" has been thrown around today, and maybe that's what people think we are in Chestnut Hill, but we do not have the money, we do not have a legal fund to fight any zoning issues, much perhaps to the surprise of some people. So this idea of being able to afford someone who can come in and protect you against some of the predators that come into communities, as they did in mine when it was Germantown, as they did in mine when it was East Oak Lane, I think is a 225 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 rather sad idea. The hypotheticals were very interesting and fun to listen to, but I did hear Councilman Nutter try to get information that shows that the bill, as it exists, has been a disaster, and he was not able to -- no one was able to show any circumstance in which the bill, as it has existed for 45 years, is a problem. I have great concerns about what I have heard today. I will say something that I have given a lot of thought to. I did not know Mary Tracy before today, and I still haven't met her, but I am at least feeling positive about being a Philadelphian because of the people who have come out and recognized the importance of our working on our problems in this city and our importance -- the importance of seeing the big picture.
People drive by, they see billboards, they keep right on going to Montgomery County. And if those of us who run this city want to nitpick at some things and don't want to see the big picture, don't want to go out and find out why people really leave, blight -- if you ask, I think you will find it is an important thing. 226 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 So I would like to thank Mary Tracy and I would like to thank the others for coming out. They are people that I hope are my peers, they are people I consider my heroes, and they are people who will give me the hope to remain a resident of Philadelphia. )
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And thank you for your testimony. Could you explain to me how you believe that Bill 15 No. 629 reduces your ability and your civic association's ability to defend or protect --
Okay thank you. To defend the issues concerning Chestnut Hill. I don't understand how you believe it's diminished your --
No, no, no, no. 3 That's not what this bill does. You have standing.
If you do not have the power to appeal, the Zoning Board will be able to dismiss you.
You have the right to appeal any issue before the Zoning Board in your neighborhood. No one's taking that right away at all. It's not even close to being true. (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
I have sat with attorneys, I have sat with landlords. I am -- just like some of you, I am not an attorney, so I won't argue legal issues with you.
And, frankly, the bill's been amended quite a number of times so it behooved me to be hearing from the people I 228 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 respect, whose legal opinion I respect, to further look at it, but I know what I know from the people I have spoken to, the people I respect, and I strongly believe --
When I know that the Managing Director's Office can't answer the questions, why would I support a bill?
Well, if you're basing your opposition to this bill on the fact that your right to appeal anything in your neighborhood will be taken away, that is an incorrect assumption, and it's not the purpose of this bill. Let me ask you another question. I misunderstood what you said about Jersey. Were you saying that there -- billboards are in Jersey or they're not?
I said if you want to know what blight is -- 229 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629
Yeah, you said people leaving to go to New Jersey. I didn't understand the part of your testimony that you said -- were you saying that there wasn't blight in those communities or that there was?
No, you said -- you mentioned New Jersey and Montgomery County. I didn't understand the context.
I said if you want the definition of "blight," you might do a survey amongst residents who have left Philadelphia, and I think if blight -- if billboards and junked-up newsstands were a part of the question there, you would find that that is an extremely important issue.
I think they haven't found that there's no billboards in the Jersey communities where they move to nor along the Schuylkill Expressway and parts of Montgomery County. So I mean --
Well, I think that's a big difference than in Society Hill or an expressway. 230 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629
There is a difference, and I know that you can argue with me over it, and I guess I could go back home and I could travel through Montgomery County and I could take a lot of photographs to bring into you. That's part of the overwhelming job residents of Philadelphia have in order to protect not only their neighborhood, but their city. The -- I spend much of my time, because in Chestnut Hill, we live very close to the border, defending this city to people who have come to me and said, Oh, Philadelphia, Philadelphia, it's awful. And then they'll say to me, Well, where do you live? And I say, Oh, Chestnut Hill. Oh, well that's different. I say it is not different, it is Philadelphia. It is every bit a part of Philadelphia as North Philadelphia, South Philadelphia. We pay taxes to the City of Philadelphia. We do not pay taxes to Chestnut Hill.
People who live in South Philadelphia along I-95 have lived with that highway and that federal intrusion for 30 or more 231 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 years. As a matter of fact, there were many homes of relatives and friends of mine whose families' homes were taken as a result of eminent domain claim about the federal and State government to put I-95 in that particular corridor, as opposed to having it further -- half hour a mile eastward, where it could have gone through no one's neighborhood, and that was a terrible thing. But as a result of that highway, people have been living with the results of that highway -- noise and pollution and other things. Because the highway exists, there is an opportunity for outdoor advertisers, for example, to utilize the highway to advertise for their clients. If a group that's lived along I-95 for the past 30 or 40 years come to some conclusion with an outdoor advertiser that, in fact, whatever concessions they make to that community who has to live with that highway to better their community, and they come to that agreement, do you think that you as a leader of the Chestnut Hill Civic Association have a right to question that or to obstruct that effort?
I know when I leave here, 232 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 I'll join SCRUB, I know that. (Laughter.)
Because I don't want to have a chat with someone who's come from Connecticut down I-95 all the way maybe to North Carolina and runs into me at some point to point out just how bad it was riding through Philadelphia.
Do you think it would be appropriate for you to have a chat with the President of the Pennsport Civic Association before you or SCRUB or anyone else would oppose what they have made an agreement to do?
Mary Tracy said that she does that as a participant in and member of SCRUB and --
Well, she has done that, gotten the answer, and opposed it anyway, so I don't know how much -- 233 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629
I think in every zoning issue, people meet and people walk away in agreement sometimes and they will not in some circumstances.
Do you believe that the people who live around that highway have a right or a greater right than you to determine what the quality of life in their neighborhood should be?
I believe very much that those billboards impact us all. And we brought up the issue of some of our sports areas that have signage around. And having grown up in Roxborough and having family still living in Roxborough, I have gone to games at the 21st Ward fields on Port Royal Avenue, and hanging all around the fence around the field are ads.
Well, we are not discriminating. I believe (indiscernible), we take either. So I look at that, and it is really very -- 234 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629
Do you live in Roxborough or Chestnut Hill? I'm sorry.
And I was born and raised in Germantown. You don't want to hear my chronology, but I know a lot about how things work in Philadelphia --
When I go to the games and watch my nephews and nieces play for the 21st Ward, that advertising is confined, it is confined to that space. In many cases, they are not totally impacting residents. And in that instance, where it is confined to that space, it actually speaks to me of a bit of vitality.
But that is not up in the air and that is not strewn -- 235 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629
Would you suggest it would be better maybe to take it and line it all along Ridge Avenue?
-- the neighbors are having a very, very, very hard time fighting.
When you go to watch your nephews or nieces play sports and are attracted by the quaint advertising along the ballfield walls, do you think that someone who doesn't live in that neighborhood and who happens to be watching another nephew, who is offended by that signage has the right to question the installation of that signage and do what it takes to get take that signage taken down?
I don't think -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
Do you think they 236 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 have the right or do you think they don't?
I do believe that if someone would find reason -- and maybe they just would have a good reason, but if they didn't have a darn good reason --
But you think they should have standing to do that, whether --
And regardless of whether or not the removal -- (Applause.)
If the hypothetical removal of that signage would doom that program, you think that's a good thing?
We had a lot of hypotheticals today, so let me give you my hypothetical.
My hypothetical is the person from outside who's opposing this is 237 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 probably not going to get anywhere with it.
If they did and it doomed the program, would it be okay?
You're in the fight. When you live in Philadelphia, you're in the fight.
It's okay to doom -- potentially doom an athletic program in a community because some person's offended by advertising.
If you recall, I said I truly don't believe they'd have a leg to stand on and they wouldn't --
And they wouldn't last in the case and it would be just like cases where somebody sues and gets a $100 million verdict and nobody reports later on that that was thrown out.
Well, I don't think that person has the right to doom any athletic or any other socially-redeeming program because of 238 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 their aesthetic sensibilities.
I don't believe it's going to happen. You gave us hypotheticals, I'll give you mine.
You believe that certain injurious things are going to happen as a result of this bill; I don't. You believe that people always sue for the right reasons; I don't believe that that's the case.
Now, you do say some things that I didn't say. I did not say people sue for the right reasons. I said if they proceeded to sue, I don't -- you know, you don't get in a suit without having good reason.
Well, I said I'm not a 239 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 lawyer, maybe you are and you know that.
You get in suits from time to time to simply delay the process. There's enough lawyers around here who know exactly how to delay things so that sometimes projects go away.
Attorneys, architects, land planners, landscape architects jump through many, many, many hoops in the counties. This is not just pertinent to Philadelphia. We just have to work a little harder as volunteers to maintain our neighborhood and the beauty of our city in the big picture.
Well, I'm an experience volunteer. Thank you for the advice.
I just wanted to note for the record that in my experience, if you 240 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 take away the right of appeal, you take away the right to an effective presentation of a case before the Zoning Board. The Zoning Board doesn't have to be concerned as to whether or not they pay any attention to your evidence because they will know that you are not permitted to appeal, and that's the reason --
You are taking away the right to appeal. If I appear before the Zoning Board, I want to appear as a party, I want the Zoning Board to know that if in my judgment, they are wrong, I will have a right to appeal.
The Zoning Board, therefore, pays more attention than they would to somebody who has no right to appeal. That's the reason you want to take away the right to appeal, because you think it's effective. I agree with you, the right to appeal 241 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 is very effective, and that's why communities and environmental groups need to have that right to appeal. And that's what gives their presence at the Zoning Board real impact. Thank you, Madam President. (Applause.)
My name is Carolyn Sutton, and I'm the President of the East Falls Development Corporation and a 30-plus resident of the City of Philadelphia in many neighborhoods, as well as a business owner in the City from time to time. And I thank you for the opportunity to speak on behalf of the East Falls Development Corporation and several other groups in East Falls regarding our neighborhood's opposition to Bill 22 629. It is appalling to me that the City would consider removing one taxpayer's voice from the process of improving the quality of life in 242 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 Philadelphia when so many others have given up and left town. Almost daily these days, I read or hear of some story on Philadelphia's efforts to eliminate blight, transform neighborhoods, and reverse the flight of our middle-class residents to the suburbs. And almost daily these days, I attend a meeting or two with other volunteer East Fallsers to do our part in stemming the tide of decay and desertion in our middle-class neighborhood. Many of our own issues -- Building and Zoning Code violations, parking and traffic, litter and graffiti, utility and highway easements, open space, and historic preservation -- are citywide problems that impact all neighborhoods and all taxpayers who live and work in Philadelphia. And so much seems to happen in this city before the neighbors are any the wiser. Big-box supermarkets, blank walls in a residential street in Chestnut Hill, transmission towers in Roxborough, a halfway house for violent offenders across from a school in Germantown. Think how much worse things could get without the intervention of passionate and 243 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 concerned citizens wherever they come from. If not for the preservationist, Maxfield Parrish's "Dream Garden" would be gone by now, along with a lot of other important City history, including some great buildings in East Falls. I only wish more of us from all over the City had gotten involved early enough to save the once-vibrant 1600 block of Sansom Street from Mr. Spielov's (ph.) parking garage. East Falls is little more than one square mile, but it is an important piece in the diverse tapestry of urban living, particularly since our front yard opens onto Fairmount Park and the Schuylkill River. Revitalization of our Ridge Avenue commercial corridor has begun and development of several key riverfront parcels is just around the corner. With the support of our councilman, Michael Nutter, we are working hard to ensure that development in this highly visible area benefits East Falls as well as the entire Philadelphia community. And, quite frankly, it is shocking to realize how often, for whatever reasons, the interests of powerful big-business players take 244 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 precedence over our own initiatives. The East Falls Development Corporation welcomes the advice and help of advocates who share our commitment to building a better city, whether they live in our community or not, because there just aren't enough hours in the day for us to fight for all of the things East Falls considers important. The Society Created to Reduce Urban Blight (SCRUB), Philadelphia Association of CDCs (PACDC), Schuylkill River Greenways, the Preservation Alliance, and the many Friends groups who watch over Philadelphia's treasures are terrific allies for East Falls and every neighborhood that is trying to sustain and promote the value of living in Center City. For East Falls Development Corporation and the City's taxpayers, I urge you to reject Bill 629 and other such legislation that denies any of us active participation in the zoning process. Thank you again for this opportunity to speak on behalf of all of us. (Applause.)
Thank you. Good afternoon, ma'am. I caught -- I was distracted for a few minutes. You said something about a development project going on in East Falls that you have been working along with Councilman Nutter?
No, I said that we have been working with Councilman Nutter on a lot of different things, including putting forward a master plan for development, a revitalization study for revitalizing, changing the Zoning Code, and putting in a zoning overlay through the ordinance process, and we are now at a point where we are going forward. And every decision that is made in East Falls impacts the entire city, particularly because of our location along Fairmount Park. And we try very hard to work with the neighborhoods on either side of us and the groups that are taking care of the Wissahickon Creek, Fairmount Park, the trees, just about anything. It is our feeling that we will do a 246 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 better job for the City as a whole if we work with Manayunk, Roxborough, Ridge Avenue, Hunting Park -- Ridge Allegheny Hunting Park, excuse me. And as I said, we welcome those voices in the decisions that we make.
Would you include in that list of groups Pennsport and South Philadelphia?
If they were opponents to what the groups that you just mentioned for us, if you --
-- in opposing what those five or six groups or ten groups, whatever it is, that are immediately impacted?
I believe that they have a voice. If you had been at a recent hearing that we had before Fairmount Park on whether or not to turn over Gustine Lake to the Arthur Ashe Tennis Center, you would have heard me speak in favor of 247 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 the Arthur Ashe Tennis Center and also rebuilding the basketball facility on another parcel in East Falls. There were many voices there from outside of our community speaking in opposition.
And I believe they had a right to be there, and I believe they would have a right to go before the Zoning Board of Appeal.
Let me -- could I -- it must be something on the east side that -- let me --
No, no, there's not something on the east side. We are taking about the City of Philadelphia. It's the City. 248 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629
It has nothing to do with East Falls or Pennsport or whatever. The people that are working at this now are working -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
And if the development of that Arthur Ashe Tennis Court, do you believe that someone from anywhere else in the City should have the right to file an appeal and prevent that development from happening?
I believe that they have a right to go before the Zoning Board of Appeals, file the appeal, and have their voice heard.
And they disagree -- if they disagree with the decision of the Zoning Board, you believe that they should have standing in an appeal that may jeopardize that project? 249 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629
If that is what the court decides. Now, we have -- let me tell you about other incidences in East Falls, all right?
I don't mean to be disrespectful. I think 'cause we're probably --
I know I talk a lot. (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
I just wanted to know on that case, 'cause I read about that, the Arthur Ashe Tennis Court, that you would be willing to jeopardize that project because you think that it is the right from someone from Whitman or Pennsport or Bella Vista should have as much understanding in that as you and the other folks who live in that community. That's okay for 250 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 them to file the appeal and quite possibly jeopardize the project because the developer, whatever, doesn't want to go through that whole lengthy court process. You'd rather have what is there now than the Arthur Ashe because someone's right -- should have the right from South Philadelphia to tell you what you want and deserve in your neighborhood.
All right, all right, okay. And I say they have the right to express themselves, and if it's to --
If it's to file an appeal, I have to assume that in the final analysis, the decision will be made in the right way for the City.
Now let me tell you about another incidence where we filed, where we went 251 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 before the Zoning Board to fight a use in our neighborhood that was not compliant with not only the basic Zoning Code but also our zoning overlay. And three community organizations, the Councilman, and City Planning opposed the granting of that variance, and the Zoning Board found -- granted the variance, granted the variance.
Now I would like to have as much help as I can going forward to file the appeal, and we do not have the money in East Falls to --
What help am I going to bring to the table if I live in South Philadelphia? I haven't a clue about what's going on up there.
You have an opinion, and people that generally get involved that way have a passion for something.
But your opinion 252 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 can be heard at the Board. All I'm suggesting is that in the reverse order of what you're saying, I shouldn't be preventing a development that you choose and your community should be going forward on. That's all I'm saying.
I tell you what. Madam Chair, no further questions. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, Miss Sutton. Robert Turino? (No response.)
And Maggie 253 3/12/01 - RULES - BILL 000629 Powell from the Eastwick PAC will be next. Please approach the table. (Witness comes forward.)