property could be used legally as four units I'm gonna object to that question you're asking him
for some intention he may or may not have had that's not what we're here for either yeah I
i agree with that i mean okay i'll be more specific um prior to closing were you aware
that there was a discrepancy between on the one hand evidence that the property was used for four
units at some point in time and on the other hand whether the property could still legally be used
as four units are you aware were you aware of that discrepancy i'm gonna object only because
in closing you get a property cert where you have l and i violations and all of that so none of that
he can you can ask him if any of that was on the record if there's any official but he's not going
to respond to speculation about what a neighbor might have said to him that is that is not
official i didn't i didn't ask what who said what to him he said discrepancy so coming from whom the
city i asked him if he had a question if he was aware of any discrepancy before about the issue
it's irrelevant paul because it has to come from the city and are you asking if he was
had any official notice of anything i i i don't really understand it when your question is are
you are you asking did the city tell them did the neighbors tell them um i could i could ask that did
did you did your agent or the listing agent tell you about a discrepancy
in in terms of if it's no longer a valid four unit as to whether there was a question between
what that there was four units being used as such at some point in time and on the other hand
whether it could be legally used as that in going forward again it's a i object it's irrelevant
what anybody else said besides the city it has to be from the city the city is the only one that can
issue any of that I mean I mean I think the question would be is you know the complaint is
against the city what what did the city have to say if if anything the city didn't say anything
well uh Mr. Chair yeah I'm listening Mr. Chair I think as we as I may remind everybody in this case
Mr. Chen signed an affidavit that said there's been, that the property has been used continuously as a four unit multifamily dwelling. I am, I am for 85 years. Right. I am delving into his knowledge and his comfort level in signing that sort of affidavit.
We believe that that affidavit is false. And so we're establishing some background as to his inability to sign this affidavit. So that that's where he signed the affidavit.
So at the time he signed the affidavit, that is what he was agreeing to.
And Paul, and you know this, the city, L&I, is the one who accepts and determines that.
So if they had any issues, that is the authority that would have had to come back to him.
So it's irrelevant what you think about it.
It's towards the city.
So maybe you want to ask Mr. Keller, I think you already did have the L&I examiner testify
about this affidavit and his comfort level.
and he testified on the record that they had no concerns about it because of the long-standing
a documented history of the property i'll move on mr chair all right bunny thank you can i share my
screen please sure uh mr kelly when he's through i'll let you have any comments all right sure for
sure i'm not sure how to share my screen um could somebody help him do that oh share yeah yeah here
go you go green button it should have been i got it i got it thank you um mr chen
um mr chen can you see my screen it's coming up right now yep it's up now yes this is the zillow
listing for the property and it indicates that please at the end of this paragraph
please note that there is a discrepancy on how many units are allowed to be rented
what did you think when you read that chairman we're asking and answering the same questions
over and over again and again this is an appeal against lni so this listing is irrelevant
mr chairman this is i'm gonna listen to it go ahead this is the evidence that we're trying to
put on right that there were not just legitimate questions but actually answers about um the facts
as to whether he could sign this affidavit or not this now we have a zillow listing that says
right there in the listing that there is a discrepancy on how many units are allowed to
be rented so i'm allowed to ask him what he took from that what he i'm also allowed to object and
say that zillow is not a legal source and that so the only the only thing i would say paul
Zillow's not L&I.
The issue's about L&I.
So I'm going to agree with her about the Zillow paperwork.
Is the issue also not about the application and the application materials?
You directed that at the L&I examiner in the beginning of these hearings a couple months ago.
And that was the exact appropriate person it was supposed to go to.
so you know our what one of our theories in this case mr chair good is that the
uh permit was granted based on incorrect facts now i let's say someone in a normal case submits
information in an application it's incorrect lni doesn't know about it because they assume it's
correct but the appeal process is here for a third party to challenge that permit and to bring
to the board's attention evidence that the application was incorrect that it was that
and that's what this process is well the only thing i would say is that but ellen i ruled that
wasn't incorrect but we are mr chen mr chen also provided no rachel let let you all finish then
i'll give you a shot go ahead first of all if you if you recall ellen i said they signed the
affidavit it was good enough for me fine um i don't think ellen i indicated any sort of scrutiny
of the affidavit and we're going to get into that i'm going to point out to you
the problems with the affidavit on its face.
You're re-litigating.
We now have a process.
We are entitled to appeal the permit
and bring to the board's attention.
Yeah, I think we're going to move on.
And the reason I'm saying is
these were issues relative to L&I.
I think you had a chance to talk to L&I
a great deal last time.
So why don't we move on?
Well, I couldn't talk to L&I
about the zillow listing because they wouldn't know about it so but that's okay so why don't
we move on all right just to respond to that the and you brought this up before paul was that the
affidavit and also the examiner said this the affidavit was submitted with additional documentation
and exhibits showing the meters showing the utilities showing additional evidence it wasn't
just a blank affidavit and the examiner went through that that they relied on that in addition
to the history in addition to those photos so opposing counsel is right rachel we we're we've
decided to move on so i i think i just need to to to comment mr chairman you can pull mr chairman
the record in this case is transcribed whatever the lni examiner said is going to be transcribed
my recollection is that he said i didn't care about any of that the other stuff i didn't care
about the photos all i cared about was the affidavit so i just mr pritzker and i have a
diametrically opposed recollection of what the examiner said i think the record will speak
for itself why don't we move on okay thank you
Were you aware through your due diligence that the last rental license for this property
had expired in 2018?
and i'll show you uh the next slide which is um our our exhibit c which is from the city's website
And I'll show you the next slide.
showing that uh the rental license was inactive as of 2018. were you i don't recall you don't recall
thank you let's talk about the condition of the property um
You saw last time the photos that we showed of the ceilings falling down in various rooms at the property.
And I'm showing the photos on the screen right now that we showed last time in our exhibit package, our PDF, pages 17, 21, 23, and 34.
do you recall seeing those ceilings falling down when you toured the property
i believe the property was sold as is so we were going to renovate it regardless so is that a yes
you saw this you saw you saw these ceilings in this condition yes it was not renovated before i
toured thank you um you saw these space heaters on our pdf page seven
i don't recall okay you saw these extension cords um throughout the house this is uh
can i object relevance of asking him this okay could you could the board indulge me with show
with with with my presentation okay so i'm not trying to waste anyone's time i know i know to
this is relevant when you hear listen to me one minute i mean he he talks about what he saw that
it wasn't rehab or you could proceed to say what the conditions were thank you you saw the um
extension cords mr chen i don't recall i it's not in my memory all right um you're aware of
broken banister that's completely completely severed going up to the top floor do you remember
that i don't remember every detail of the property i just remember it was not in a great condition
not in is that your testimony it was not in great condition it wasn't turnkey property is what i'm
saying what do you mean by that like it's like it would need some work before someone can live in it
okay it was not rentable
are you saying it was not rentable said it wasn't turnkey paul i understand so i'm asking a question
turnkey means that he he obviously pulled building permits so he knew he was gonna
have to renovate it like the witness to testify not the attorney but do you believe that it was
rentable at the as is at that time i'm not sure if that's relevant
to to the so i i look i i think we all heard him when he started he said the place needed to be
rehab that wasn't rehab that's where he started his conversation i don't think we're getting more
out of that mr chen i'm showing you um uh your exhibit uh four the first page of your exhibit
before, which is a photo of the front door, and your attorney pointed out the four mailboxes
that I think she said were not scratched out or anything like that.
And I'm going to zoom in a little bit and show you that the doorbell, where three out
the four of buttons are covered up in duct tape okay did you see that three out of the four doorbells
were covered up in duct tape i don't recall sorry recall all right thank you um
uh you produced mr chen in your exhibits submitted to this board a copy of an appraisal
report is that correct correct okay um and these are the photos attached
to the appraisal report and do you see that in the photos attached by the
appraiser he's showing this
uh he's showing um uh the ceiling falling down a floor with duct tape on it i'm just
going to page through here you see i i highlighted in red um different parts here
he also showed a photo of a water heater one water heater mr chen um did you see this during your tour
i i don't recall okay would you agree with me that this is a typical um
this is not a large commercial water heater i'm gonna object to that he's not an expert
in water heaters and most buildings even with four units have one water heater
so your testimony you're providing factual testimony well i'm just object that i'll
then I'll rephrase it I'm objecting to you asking him about a photo of a water heater so so Rachel
why don't we do this why don't we let him answer the question if he knows does that look like a
reg you own several properties does this look like a regular size water heater to you Mr. Chen
I don't know the scale of this water here sorry all right that's okay thank you
okay uh i will say during the appraisal report even the appraisal report show that
was a four-unit property there was no concerns from my end
well let's we'll get to that okay all right we'll get to that um
uh this is a copy of the appraisal report correct that copy of the title page is that correct
the cover page? Correct. And it says it's prepared for a mortgage company,
MI Mutual Mortgage Company. Is that correct? I believe so. Okay. And it says as of May 19,
2025, which I believe is a day before you purchased the property. Is that correct?
i believe so yes okay um and you're aware that the uh inspection that the appraiser did
was on that date may 19 2025 is that correct
i don't know exactly what day he did the inspection okay well i'm showing you the bottom of
pdf page 86 and at the bottom of uh that page i marked and read in fact it says date of inspection
may 19 2025 so okay you don't have any reason to argue with that correct no no reason sorry
This is now page one of the appraisal, and at the bottom it says, and I'll go through
this as quickly as I can, it's not going to take that much time, and thank you, this is
crucial to our case.
that it says at the time of the inspection, the subject was in poor condition.
Do you see that, Mr. Chen?
Do you see that, Mr. Chen?
I can see that in the report, yes.
Okay, Mr. Chair, there are just four passages of this appraisal that I would like to read into the record.
and I and I this is his exhibit uh and I'd like to do it with your permission without going through
the um business of saying did I read that correctly um you know do you agree that I read it correctly
I'd just like to present it to the rec maybe at the end I could ask him did I read all four
correctly I'm just trying to say how long is this going to take to read it not but Paul
Can I ask one question? Did I see on that thing that the appraisal counted four units?
So he didn't vouch for four units. I just put it on the thing. I saw the number.
There's a disclaimer in here. Yes, he did. He says it looks like... There's no dispute
that at some point in time that this was used as four units, and there's no dispute that
that, that, you know, Ms. Pritzker says that at no time did the property owner make physical
That, you know,
modifications to consolidate the property into a single family home. I agree with that.
So, yes. Why don't we, why don't you read that? We'll get that. And, and, and Rachel,
let him get through it. And if you object at the end, object. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank, thank you.
so on the page two of the appraisal at the bottom it says the subject is not rentable as is okay
okay then there's a part of the appraisal called supplemental addendum and it says the subject
was in poor condition and then it has a code number c6 like charles six charles six is defined
by the appraisal report saying the improvements have substantial damage or deferred maintenance
with deficiencies or defects that are severe enough to affect the safety soundness or structural
integrity of the improvements the improvements are in need of substantial repairs and rehabilitation
including many or most major components almost finished okay the supplemental addendum also says
the subject is in need of new kitchens and baths as well as flooring wall and ceiling repairs
an itemized list of repairs needed to bring the subject to average condition is not possible as
the subject is in need of a full renovation okay finally um on page that the the last part of the
supplemental addendum at number four says there is a heating system present there is a heating
system present but it is unknown if it is operational in consideration of the overall
condition it can be assumed that repairs are needed um so is that all four i'm finished quoting from
the report okay so can i yeah yeah i just want to put the objection on the record just because
we're not here contesting the legitimacy of an appraisal appraisals are used for financing
purposes so this is an independent appraisal that was not was not used to substantiate a permit it
was used to be able to get financing for it. I think Paul helpfully pointed out and put on the
record that there was no physical reconfiguration of the structure. And just lastly, again,
the condition is irrelevant. I understand it's in poor condition. The condition is irrelevant
because he was pulling a building permit. We're not here because he had an unsafe violation and
he was renting this out in poor condition deterioration or disrepair of a structure does
not constitute abandonment of a non-conforming use so it's irrelevant all right thank you could
you could you finish your cross with this yeah everything that we talked about for the past 15
minutes mr chen including the photos and the appraisal report did any of that lead you to
believe at the time that it had been quite some time since any since any of those units were rented
out uh can you can you repeat that question i'm not sure if i understood correctly at the time of
the closing um did you have any reason to believe based on all the things we talked about that it
been quite some time since any of those units were rented out to tenants
i believe when when i walked through the the owner was still living there like very recently
so i've i have no knowledge of that i'm asking about renting out to tenants not the owner living