So I met with Giovanni Caputo on site, an inspector we've worked with.
Can you answer the question?
Yes, I am. I met Giovanni Caputo on site. He reviewed the demolition.
I just wanted to make sure that you were aware of the violation that shut the job down due to operating beyond the scope of the permit.
That's all I want to know.
That's a yes or no, sir.
Thank you.
And we stopped immediately.
Understood.
I understand.
In old buildings, there's a lot of, you know, you have to be really sensitive to the structure.
And when we met the inspector on site, he was concerned with the basement, and then we stopped immediately.
Understood. So the property didn't look like this when you purchased it. Is that right?
Correct. No, we pulled a demo permit and demoed the interior finishes.
Save all the historical elements.
Understood. Mr. Kirk, could you please stop sharing so that I could put up my exhibits?
I do want to ask the witness, Mr. Messieri, your counsel mentioned about
some of the petitions assigned by folks on the 2300 block in opposition to going beyond what's
a matter of right. And he meant he sort of seemed to to proffer that there's some sort of difference
between people who own property in Philadelphia
and people who occupy property in Philadelphia.
Were you aware that the zoning board
and actually no legal jurisdiction
offers heavier weight to the position
or testimony of an owner
than they do an occupant or resident
of a community neighborhood?
Were you aware of the difference?
It calls for a legal conclusion.
Okay, Mr. Kirk, were you aware of the difference?
mr anastasia i'm not i'm not testifying as a witness to the case okay very well
i'm going to share my screen now
are we looking at 2319 delancey place anthony
i don't see anything quite yet not up yet berman you got to tap it away
not there okay let's try again and we're back to us okay
give me one moment
Give me one moment.
That should do it.
See it now?
Very good.
Is this the listing of 2319 Delancey Place?
Michael?
Anthony.
I'm sorry, Anthony.
I'm sorry.
My apologies.
Yeah, it looks like.
Like, I'm not sure what portal or what service that is.
Is that MLS?
It's the MLS right here at the top.
Right.
Okay, I see it now.
Through Redfin.
So this is 2319.
You purchased this property.
And this is what you purchased, right?
Oh, I'm sorry.
This is a one-of-a-kind brownstone attributed to Frank Furness.
Correct.
And the property type is multifamily, two to four units, is how it was listed and identified.
Is that right?
That's how they identified it, correct.
And that's how you purchased it, right, upon review of this MLS.
Based on this listing, this is what you purchased.
Is that right?
We purchased, in addition to that, public record, it is a five-unit by right building.
I stipulate to that.
Thank you.
and these were the plans that came with the purchase right each having apartments
that were oh sorry each were having apartments uh that were over a thousand square feet
in some instances is that correct yes the main uh house owners lived on the first floor and
then they would have their families stay in the various apartments upstairs and these were these
were three units at the time uh we stipulate that you can have five as a matter of right
and these are pretty ample size units would you not say as as this plan illustrates yes they're
very large and and your plan is to chop them up uh to uh between 350 square feet
to just over 500 square feet is that right 350 to 650. which unit of yours are you proposing that's
650. If you look at our documents, Vern, you see there's one at 463, 588, 581, 526, and 658.
So there's none at 538? What do you mean 538? 538 square feet.
Exactly 538 square feet. That's correct. I'm not sure I understand your question.
Okay, that's fine. Now let's look at what you purchased, okay? The photos before you tore the
place up here's objection the relevance i i i think it's really relevant mr chair of what the
guy bought so i i think we're going to say he did work in there instead of tear it up he did he did
work well yeah but it's a property based this is what he got it built not somebody gutted prior to
even securing zoning relief yet again objection as as the the owner testified that he purchased
it based on its zoning potential well i think i think verne's questions coming off what what he
sees there and and we're gonna leave this is what this is what the witness purchased
and i do want to ask the witness anthony is this what you purchased yes
okay turnkey viable three three family dwelling is that right objection with the knowledge that
you could go to five is that right we did not purchase a turnkey three in a dwelling that
is never our intention so okay that's how it was marketed my apologies
how it's marketed and what we purchase are two different things
this this is turn k you could move right in i think i think the evidence speaks for itself
all right bern why don't you move on we understand what your
your presentation uh and here is the record of three rental units
for the property in question is that right
yes very good
And now let's look at 2303, the Lansing Place.
You just skipped through the, never mind, you can continue.
Everything's already been entered into evidence.
2303, the Lansing Place.
This MLS listing says it's a multifamily.
And in the description,
fabulous turnkey investment and amazing
fabulous turnkey investment, an amazing opportunity to own a quadruple in Fittler Square.
I would like to ask the witness, do you understand what the word quadruple means
when you purchase this property? Yes. What does that mean, sir? How many units?
It means four. It means four. Okay, very well. So you purchased this property with a physical
four unit as a physical four unit but without the understanding that you have a you have the right
as a matter of code to get five is that right correct okay
and there's that property there now let's go to i'll briefly
go to the signatures, most of whom are on either 24th or Delancey.
Yes. Can you go back one page? Well, that's already been submitted, sir. I do want to say
that I am going to stipulate, Mr. Chair, that yes, some of these people, you know,
heaven forbid actually live on the block they're just not owners who live somewhere else uh these
were folks who have to live with the construction that was done to 2319 uh and would have to live
with the increase in number uh so i just want to walk you through 2319 signatures as well as 2303
also want to stipulate that if a household has more than one member
as many members who live in that house certainly could sign a petition or voice their opposition.
There are no rules of evidence that bar renters or people that don't have means to purchase a home
from involving themselves in a legal proceeding.
in short mr chair the witness testified that he purchased a three-bedroom and a quad
we're going to hear evidence today that these were viable properties as they were
he testified that he gutted one and that it was shut down for the work being beyond the scope
And the argument is here that they want you to believe that because some other properties on the block got zoning relief whenever that was, that this property is entitled to the same relief.
My client's position, and you'll hear this with two witnesses very quickly, that they're okay with the applicant and the appellant revamping these homes.
to their highest and fullest potential which is five family dwellings that's what they're allowed
as a matter of right it's still more than what they purchased but that eight is an overbill
i mean we think you know there's a term for it and i hear it often on the side when i sit on
council kirk's side this is called beds and heads we want to take sustainable nice size units and
chop them up to 350 square feet and a little bit beyond that uh it's just an overbuild if there
ever was one and there's zero evidence zero evidence or testimony that any hardship exists
i mean this is why don't why don't we move on with your your witnesses please yep i'm going
to call patrick campbell please mr campbell could you state your name is spelled for the court
reporter mr campbell please unmute yourself and wait for the chair hi state your name and spell
for the court reporter please patrick campbell p-a-t-r-i-c-k-c-a-m-p-b-e-l-l do you swear
affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth i do proceed mr campbell um first
and foremost did you hear my presentation to the board this morning yes i did the true and accurate
to the best of your knowledge? Yes, it is. You adopt it as your own testimony. Yes, I do.
Where do you live again? 2314 Delancey is a home that I am going to move into very soon.
Very good. You just purchased it and you're redamping it. Right. And what do you do for a
living? I'm a realtor in Center City. I've been a realtor here for 20 years. I'm the top selling
agent in Fittler Square for the past six years. Fittler Square being this particular neighborhood,
is that right? Correct. Okay. And were you aware of these listings, the three-family
Were you aware of these listings, the three-family and the four-family that were posted on the MLS?
and the four-family that were?
Yes. 2319 Delancey, I had walked through. 2303 Delancey came up on the market.
I was excited about this listing. I called the listing agent right away.
She told me what it was, a turnkey property.
But then she told me that it was under contract.
So this sold even before it came on the market.
Very good. You are aware that the property as they are zoned and based on the square footage, each property could have five apartments in them. Is that right?
Okay. Were the properties as purchased viable properties given the market?
Okay. Would they be even more profitable and or viable if each were to be built out to five
units as a matter of right? I don't know because I don't know the contract, like how much it would
cost to build out those units to get to the five units, but they were certainly rentable out as
as they were purchased. Understood. Very good. And that's a fair question. You do oppose
overbuilding eight units per building. Is that right? Yes, I'm opposed to building eight units
in each building. And why is that, sir? There's many reasons. Parking is a big one. There's no
reason to bring more parking to the block, more parking problems. Moving trucks, people moving in
and out of the block. It presents problems. That's 16 more units on the block, which means
a lot of moving in and moving out. Is it your testimony that it would adversely impact
congestion, traffic flow, and the health and well-being of the block if it were to be overbuilt
to eight units per building yes that's correct thank you anything else to add briefly uh no
thank you i call edmund edwin smith mr chair if i if i may oh go ahead i'm sorry yes yes mr
campbell uh just just a quick question you indicated that that would be 16 more units but
you agree that there would be 10 of those would be by right at this point correct
yes sir um and did you have any opposition to a lesser amount of units proposed as the applicant
had indicated a willingness to do seven in each which would only increase by four not six i oppose
anything above the by right allowance understood your next witness please mr edwin smith and i'll
be very brief, Mr. Chair. Mr. Smith, state your name and spell for the court reporter.
Mr. Smith?
There he is.
Hi, could you state your name and spell for the court reporter?
Edwin Smith, E-D-W-I-N-S-M-I-T-H.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Proceed.
Thank you.
Mr. Smith, do you own the property adjacent to 2319?
Okay. And what is your position on the proposal for eight units for both 2319 and 2303?
My wife and I are in opposition.
Why is that, sir?
Well, we've been there for 42 years, and we're aware of sounds that come from either side of us through the walls.
These houses were built in 1865, or 1875, rather.
And to go from five to eight units, you're talking about a potential of 16 people next door, pets, children, guests.
The sound levels would really make it very unlivable here.
It would be more like living in a tenement.
You are aware that the proposed eight units in 2319 would range anywhere from 350 square feet to somewhere in the fives, maybe six.
that's why it's likely to have two people per apartment and possibly children and pets and
that's why the noise level would be very very difficult to live with you're aware that the
property 2319 was purchased as a triplex is that right that's right it was an owner occupied and
That's right. It was an owner-occupied and two apartments. It had been that way throughout the entire period we've lived here.
in two apartments, it had been that way.