COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:20 p.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL, CHAIR COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILMAN BILL GREEN COUNCILMAN WILLIAM GREENLEE COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR. COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL BILL 080005 - An ordinance amending Title 13 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Water and Sewer," by adding a new Chapter regarding termination of water and sewer service... BILL 080076 - An ordinance amending Bill No. 18 070368, entitled "An ordinance approving the Fiscal Year 2008 Capital Budget providing for the expenditures for the capital purposes of the Philadelphia Gas Works"... - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
Good afternoon. Thank you all for your patience. We will now convene the Finance hearing with regard to two bills: Bills 080005 and 080076. We will ask the Clerk to read the title of Bill No. 080005.
An ordinance 10 amending Title 13 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Water and Sewer," by adding a new Chapter regarding termination of water and sewer service and prohibiting the termination of such service on certain days, all under certain terms and conditions.
Thank you very much. We note that there is a quorum. To my left, Councilman O'Neill. To my right, Councilman Bill Greenlee, W. Wilson Goode, Jr., Frank DiCicco, and to his right we're happy to welcome Curtis Jones. Thank you very much. We will now recognize 3 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Councilman Bill Greenlee, sponsor of this bill, for remarks.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I'll be brief because --
While he's speaking, we will ask Commissioner Brunwasser to come forward and whomever else might be testifying with him. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I just want to briefly open the hearing by just speaking on this bill and what it is and what it's not. I think what's important to note first of all, what it's not. This is not a vehicle to have people not pay their bills. In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to have this bill or these kind of hearings, because everybody would pay, but we all know we don't live in a perfect world and we live in a world where sometimes people 4 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 make mistakes. Sometimes people do it intentionally. But what this bill is trying to do is provide the Water Department with a reasonable enforcement procedure, and I underline reasonable. Despite the chart that I think the Commissioner will show in a couple minutes, still this bill allows most days of the month, most months of the year to be allowed to have enforcement, to have shut-off, but what it addresses is what is clearly a problem, that there are a number of people that are turned off on Friday and Saturday and are not able to get restored over the weekend, that the procedure that is out there just is plain not working. Does it work for some people? Yes, but certainly not enough. And I think I have seen this over the years as my experience as a staff member for Councilman Cohen and my own staff has told me the problems they've had. Other Councilmembers' staff have told me what 5 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 they're having. Other Councilmembers have said it. So this is a real problem. I could have rented a bus, brought down and filled this Chambers today with the people who have had problems. I'm not about that. I think, again, we want to have a reasonable discussion, but I did want to -- you will hear from some people who have had real problems in getting this done. And I think, again, this addresses it in what I believe is a reasonable way. It might entail the Department changing their procedure some, changing their manpower some, working with Water Revenue better, and they've had a lot of opportunity to do that and apparently haven't satisfactorily done it yet. So I think this is fair and I think it will address what is a real problem in the City, but still give the Water Department what they need to do. 6 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 So with that, I thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you very much. Are there any other comments from members of the Committee? (No response.)
Commissioner, please identify yourself for the record. Thank you. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Good afternoon, Councilwoman Blackwell and members of the Finance Committee. My name is Bernard Brunwasser and I am the Water Commissioner. To my right is Deputy Water Commissioner Debra McCarty, who is head of our Operations Division, and to my left is Joseph Clare, Deputy Water Commissioner for Finance and Administration. I am here today to testify on Bill No. 080005. This bill would prohibit the Water Department from performing service shut-offs and 7 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 potentially at-the-door collection service on all Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays, legal holidays and the day preceding a legal holiday. Please allow me to begin with a bit of background. The Water Department was established by the City pursuant to the City Charter with the power and duty to operate, maintain, repair and improve the City's water and wastewater systems. The City Charter requires the Water Department to fix and regulate rates and charges for supplying water and wastewater treatment service in accordance with standards established by City Council. Such standards must enable the City to realize from rates and charges an amount at least equal to operating expenses and debt service charges on any debt incurred or to be incurred for the water and wastewater systems, and proportionate charges for all services performed for the Water Department by all offices, departments, 8 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 boards and commissions of the City. The City Department of Revenue is charged with performing all functions relating to meter reading, customer accounts and collections on behalf of the Water Department through the Water Revenue Bureau, also known as the WRB. The Department of Revenue and the WRB operate under the direction of the Director of Finance. As of January 2008, the water system served approximately 472,834 customer accounts. The City utilizes many methods to enforce collections of delinquent receivables, including the termination of service, the filing and enforcement of property liens, legal proceedings with municipal and Commonwealth courts and sheriff's sales. 6 percent of all amounts due to the Department. However, it is important to note that historically 9 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 only about 60 to 65 percent of the bills are actually paid by the due date or on the due date. In other words, almost 40 percent of our customers do not pay on time. As you can probably surmise, the threat of or actual termination of water service is, by far, the Water Revenue Bureau's most successful collection tool. However, I want to stress that the customer is provided with multiple billings and notices before resorting to a termination of service. Permit me to elaborate a bit further on the process. First, our shut-off policy requires that a typical homeowner be at least two cycles delinquent and owe a balance greater than $75. In addition to the normal bill and the second and third bills indicating a delinquency, the process provides for a shut-off warning notice 45 days prior to the scheduled shut-off and again 15 days prior to the 10 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 scheduled shut-off. During this entire period, uninterrupted water service is provided to the customer. Also, during this entire period, the shut-off can be legitimately forestalled for numerous reasons, including the customer's application for a payment agreement, submission of documentation related to a serious medical condition, receipt of a bona fide complaint regarding the bill 12 and so forth. Our crews also provide customers with the ability to pay the required amount at the door by check or money order, a service I believe no other Philadelphia utility offers.
I would also like to emphasize that it is in our customer's financial interest to avoid a shut-off since, pursuant to regulation, a fee of $22 or a payment agreement avoids a shut-off, but once water service is terminated, the restoration fee rises to $46. I would also like to note that for the record no other Philadelphia 11 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 utility is forced to operate under similar constraints. PGW, PECO, Verizon and Comcast all have more discretion to terminate service for customers. I believe the current service termination process is fair and reasonable, giving customers ample opportunity to pay at many steps in the process. Currently, based on existing Water Department regulations, the Water Department and the WRB are not permitted to terminate residential service during the period December 1st through March 31st of each year. Our two departments must currently manage the shut-off process so that shut-offs occur in an effective and efficient manner during the period April 1st through November 30th. The Water Department also voluntarily refrains from shut-offs on heat emergency days and on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. It should be noted that since November, the Department has voluntarily 12 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 stopped service terminations for multi-family properties on Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays and holidays. Please note that we have a limited number of employees who are actually trained to perform service terminations and delinquency collections at the door. Not allowing shut-offs from Friday to Sunday will have the effect of delaying the termination of service for customers that have not paid or who have not taken the initiative to enter into a payment agreement. This bill would effectively preclude us from termination of residential water services for non-payment for four months, or one-third of the year. This will result in reducing our utility's cash flow and increasing our accounts receivable. It may also force us to hire more employees to service these accounts during the remaining 130 or so shut-off days allowed under this bill, resulting in increased cost to the Department and to its 13 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 ratepayers. The annual cost for these additional personnel alone would be approximately $1,070,000, excluding the considerable cost of an additional 6 trucks, gasoline, supplies and support 7 staff. 8 The Department's shut-off 9 collection data shows that on Saturdays 10 our crews find more people at home and 11 able to pay than during the weekdays. 56 percent of 14 the customers called on during a 15 Saturday, Sunday or holiday made a 16 payment on their bill and avoided being 17 shut off. 99 percent during the non-holiday weekdays during November. By prohibiting shut-offs as specified in the proposed bill, we would only be permitted to perform shut-offs on any property approximately 130 days during the years, effectively prohibiting shut-offs during almost two-thirds of the 14 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 year. We offer a chart as an exhibit to my testimony which delineates the current and proposed number of days that we would be excluded from service terminations. 7 million annually in collections. An adverse change in our revenue collection ratios would also have a direct adverse change on our rates. I should also note that the proposed bill does not differentiate between the termination of service for residential or commercial accounts. We would, therefore, also be precluded from shut-off of commercial/industrial properties since current regulations regarding the winter shut-off moratorium do not apply to non-residential properties. In conclusion, I sincerely understand the sponsor, Councilman Greenlee's, intention and the spirit of the legislation. On its face, it is 15 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 difficult to argue with the perceived fairness of the bill.
However, I would also respectfully suggest that the members of this Committee and Councilman Greenlee consider the fairness and impact on our customers who do in fact pay their bill on time. I would also respectfully suggest that I believe we have a very fair and generous process which allows our customers to avoid shut-off notices. Still, only approximately 60 percent of our customers pay on time, and if passed, Bill No. 080005 will have an adverse impact on the collection of outstanding water and sewer bills, resulting in higher balances for longer periods of time, which further negatively impacts the customer's ability to pay. This bill 20 will also result in additional expense to the Department and to the customer because of the higher likelihood of shut-offs on the weekdays. Thank you for allowing me this time to share my views on this very 16 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 important matter to the City, the Water Department, the ratepayers who are our customers. I hope you will consider my concerns as this Committee goes into its deliberation. I would be happy to answer any questions that you have. I would like to at this point just digress a little bit from my prepared remarks to let you know that we have within the next day or the next several days, we have 66,000 shut-off notices being prepared for mailing to customers for their first notice, which is a 45-day notice, telling them that beginning in April they will be subject to shut-offs. Now, this is 66,000 accounts. This is why we believe that we need to go out there more than 130 days of the year. We have a problem with this. The bond rating agencies have opined on our collections and have found them to be less than robust. This is a 17 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 water and sewer utility with many billions of dollars of investment in the ground. Our replacement value probably just of our water and sewer system, our pipes alone, is probably $10 to $15 billion. So we need access to the bond market. We are embarking on some very big projects in places like South Philadelphia, Northern Liberties that have experienced basement back-ups due to flooding and it will cost us many tens of millions of dollars to correct these things, as they should be corrected in the City of Philadelphia so people don't have to worry about these matters. But, again, we have to have good access to the market. Wall Street thinks highly of us at this point in time, but they are also mindful because we put in our official statements what our collection ratios are. We don't want to see any deterioration in those, because they've 18 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 already singled -- two of the rating agencies have already singled out collections as being areas that could compromise the financial health of this department. Finally, understanding Councilman Greenlee's concerns, we met this morning, my staff. We are prepared to work with the Revenue Department, the Water Revenue Bureau and our own forces, our own call center personnel, to assure the Council that being shut off on the weekend or on a Friday will not result in any worse service or any more difficult time in getting your service restored. We will try to restore everyone within 18 hours, if not the same day, and we're 19 prepared to move to that before the 20 shut-off season begins in April. 21 So that's all I have for now 22 and I'm ready for your questions. 23
Thank 24 you, Commissioner. Councilman Greenlee. 19 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, Commissioner. Let me first address what you just said about you're going to be working with the Water Revenue Bureau, which I know is part of the problem here, in that we have sort of two entities, even though it's obviously the City of Philadelphia, and often times that's what leads to the problem, not just on the weekends but even during the week. I guess I can't help but ask this question, and I think I kind of said it when we met this morning. There seemed to be an indication that you knew that there was a problem here with the coordination between the two units, Water and Water Revenue. I don't know if you said it, but somebody that was with you today said that. And I introduced a bill 23 similar to this last year, almost the same thing, although I don't think it included Fridays. If you knew there was 20 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 that problem, with all due respect, why are you coming here now telling us that you're going to look into working with Water Revenue on it? If there was a problem, why hadn't it been more better addressed or addressed in some fashion before today when I put in this bill? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well, we have been working with the Water Revenue Bureau over the years to improve collections, and believe it or not, Councilman, back when we started working together approximately ten years ago, the on-time collections for water bills was 48 percent. Less than half of the population paid their bill on time. We're now up to 60 or low 60 percent range and there has been an improvement. With the shut-offs on the weekends, perhaps we didn't spend enough time assuring ourselves that the Water Revenue Bureau was going to be answering the phones at their particular numbers. I don't know how -- if there was a major 21 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 problem or not. I know certainly we spoke in November when there was a specific question that you had, and what that was about, as I recall, was an apartment house that had broken their payment agreement and --
The owners had broken the payment agreement. Let me make that clear. Not the tenants. The owners broke the payment agreement. Those people, with all due respect, should not have been shut off. Fifty-five units were shut off on Veterans Day weekend erroneously, and I think you admitted that at the time and so did Water Revenue. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: No. 19 Well, what I admitted was -- I mean, I knew they were shut off. I did not know at the time the circumstances. I believe that those folks had gone through the USTRA process, because the Revenue Bureau basically provides our shut-off crews with a list of properties that have gone 22 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 through due process. If this one was one of those cases where they did not have due process, then you're right, that was an error, that was a mistake.
I believe that's what happened. I don't want to belabor the point, but I believe that's what happened. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: If it wasn't USTRA where the folks were noticed and had been served under USTRA rules, then if they were shut off, then it was technically not a mistake.
I'm not quite sure I followed that. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: In other words, tenants have the ability to take over current billings from --
But they have to be properly notified. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Exactly. If they were not properly --
My understanding is they were not notified. 23 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 But, okay, we'll move on. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: There may be a disagreement on that score. I'm not sure, because, again, I wasn't there.
I just tell you, when I called, you gave me somebody from Water Revenue. I can't remember the name, and her exact quote was, We screwed this up. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Oh, okay.
All right. We'll leave it at that. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well, perhaps that's so.
That's 55 units. And when you add all the kids and everything else that was in there, it was a lot of people. Now, obviously if it was a mistake, everybody makes mistakes, but I'm just illustrating -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: And we took -- 24 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076
Excuse me, but didn't I ask you at that time -- I think when we had the conversation, I told you this was one of the reasons why I had already put that bill in. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Correct.
And I think it's a good idea. And I said that a lot of those people had tried to get this number that was left -- and I'm still not clear whether it's Water Revenue or Water Department they're supposed to call -- and were not able to get through. And not to embarrass you, Commissioner, but didn't you say to me, Yeah, I tried that number too and I couldn't get through? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I tried several numbers. I was unable to get through, so --
And you're the Water Commissioner. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: 25 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Exactly. So what I did, just to go back a little bit, what I did was, I called our head of shut-offs and had him restore the property. I said, Look, we'll work it out on Monday or the next working day. We'll figure it out at that point. Restore them. And what I did right after that was, I said, No more multi-family units are to be shut off any day but Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. In other words, exactly as this legislation has it, we have not done that since Veterans Day weekend.
Okay. And I appreciate that, and I appreciate your response to that individual matter. You did try to work that out, and I appreciate that, and I appreciate the restrictions you put in after that. But I guess my point is, in a sense, a bigger one, is that that happened to be a dramatic example, 55 units. They shouldn't have been shut off, in my opinion, from the beginning, but I think 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 the key thing was that you tried to deal with that number, my office tried to deal with that number and it didn't work. And I would say in real life, even if it was one unit that got shut off, especially if it got shut off erroneously, but even if it didn't, there's supposed to be this system that is going to work, that you'd be able to call and you'd be able to get somebody to come out and take their check or whatever, take their payment, and it doesn't work. It just didn't work in that example, Commissioner. It didn't work many times when other people have called us over the years. And I know some people -- and I can give lots of examples, and these are people who are -- they know how to use the telephone. They know how to dial it. They know how to do all that, and they would get -- if they got an answer at all, they got full voice mails sometimes, they got no answer sometimes, and then when they would get an answer, more than once I have been 27 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 told the person said, Oh, this is Saturday, you got to deal with this on Monday. Now, I don't think all these people have dialed the wrong number or messed things up or have bad memories. What I'm saying is -- I don't believe you guys are doing this intentionally. You obviously aren't. You want this to work. It's not working. It hasn't worked, and I think this is the only reasonable solution to try to deal with it. Now, maybe somewhere down the line you can convince us that it can work, but with all due respect, I'm not convinced now. Talking to some of the other members of the Committee, I don't think they're convinced that this system works. And it's unfair to people, even people who have done everything wrong and haven't paid their bills -- and I'm not in any way condoning that. Still, if there's a procedure when they get shut off on Saturday -- and you may be able to 28 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 reach more people on Saturday, but still, I forget the percentage you said, but it was still like 30 percent plus you reach. So if my math is right, that's 60 percent some you don't reach and I assume you still shut those people off. So that's a lot of people on Saturday that are reached, aren't able -- and then very well go through this system, which, again, in my opinion, evidence shows does not work very well, and that's why I think this is the only reasonable procedure. Again, I don't want your bond rating, that isn't in any of our interests, to have your bond rating -- it's not in your interest, it's not in ours, but I think we have to be fair to the regular citizen out there. And, again, people make mistakes. I use the example of this building. But there's been other people that have been turned off that probably should not have been turned off. But I 29 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 will grant you that the majority of people have probably messed up in some fashion. Although, your threshold is $75. If I'm right, that could be one month's bill or maybe two. But, again, I will grant you that people are delinquent and don't do the right thing. If everybody did the right thing, I guess we wouldn't have to be here or we'd have a lot less time on the job. I mean, that's just the reality of it. I know you said 130 days, that's not enough.
I really believe, and I don't know the department like you do and the rest of the folks here, but I think maybe if you maybe move manpower around, maybe got a little more creative, maybe tried to deal with the problem instead of saying, We can't do it, that you could work around this and still have a reasonable enforcement and not have people put through what we have seen example after example -- and we're going to hear in a few minutes -- of people 30 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 that this system just does not work. And let me just add -- and I'm sorry I'm making speeches here. I know when we talked today, I pointed out that this bill does not in any way restrict the Department from going out and trying to collect. You think if -- and I believe your answer was, Well, if we don't have the threat of termination right on the spot, the collection is fruitless. I'm not sure I agree with you on that. I'm not sure it couldn't work, and to be honest with you, neither one of us are sure because you haven't tried it yet. But I just think -- and I held off on this bill last year. First of all, because the Street Administration strongly opposed it, but, secondly, I wanted to see, well, maybe there was something that would change. With all due respect, Commissioner, I haven't seen anything change. I really haven't. I'm not saying you're not trying. I'm not 31 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 sure -- my dealings with both Water Revenue and Water Department, particularly with the Government Relations people, has been very positive, but this clearly does not work for a lot of people. And not just the customer themselves, but their families, their kids, their grandparents are going through more hardship than I feel they have to go through. I know I didn't ask you a question, I made a statement, but I just -- and I think I know of what I speak. I've been doing this for a long time, and I dealt with people and their water bills and their water shut-offs and ability to get back on and all that stuff, and this weekend stuff just does not work well enough, in my opinion. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well, you know --
Excuse me one minute, Commissioner. The Chair notes that our 32 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 President, President Verna, is here, as well as Councilman Bill Green and Councilman Jim Kenney, who are members of the Committee. All right. Feel free to proceed. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Sure. The other point I just wanted to make, we've talked about the two official notices that get sent out. This is in addition to the billing reminders that people get on a monthly basis that they're delinquent. We're not likely to visit anyone until they've had free service, so to speak, for a minimum of four to five months, and sometimes that's compounded by the four-month moratorium, which I believe is very well meaning but tends to allow people to slide for four months. They're busy paying their other utility bills that may be a bit higher than ours and they get behind the eight ball by the time April rolls around and that's why we have 66,000 shut-off 33 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 notices going out within the next few days. I think because of the sheer volume of those shut-off notices, we have to be fairly aggressive in order to keep our collections at the moderate level -- relatively modest levels we have today. If we slip, every one percent that we lose out means that has to be collected from somewhere else within the billings of the Water Department. We have to make sure that each year can stand on its own and meet all of the requirements not only of the Charter but of the bond ordinances that all of you have signed off on over the years, and that's something that's also important, and that's important to every single customer of Philadelphia, every single water customer.
Just one last question. I know other people probably want to ask a question. You reference the 66,000 34 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 shut-offs, but, I mean, they are all not going to have to result in shut-offs. I mean, a lot of people do respond, right? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: No, no, not at all. Yeah. We would guess that within the first -- before the second notice goes out, which is a 15-day notice, in that 30-day period I think roughly half of these people will have either paid their bill or at least called and made an accommodation with the Revenue Bureau, whether that's a payment agreement or something else. But you're absolutely correct. I don't mean to say that we're going to have to shut those 66,000 people down. Most of them will --
Will make payments. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Will make payment.
Look, and I agree with you. Are there people that use the system? Yeah, there are. It's the sixth largest city in the country. 35 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Are there people who get around stuff, work hard at it? Sure, there are, but I don't think we can just base our policies on those people. I think we have to base it on the people who often times, again, may not do what they're supposed to do, may make mistakes, may just forget, whatever the case may be, but, again, I'm repeating myself, but I think we have to find a reasonable middle. We obviously disagree on what that reasonable middle is. I think this is a reasonable middle. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well, we stand ready to have more meetings with you and your staff and the Revenue Department, of course. We have a new Revenue Commissioner, as you know, and I'm sure he's ready, willing and able to come and meet with us, and we come up with a system that works on the weekend and all other days of the week.
Again, I just wish that there were some concrete changes shown before today. That's just 36 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 the way I feel. Thank you, Madam Chair.
You're welcome. Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, Commissioner. To be very honest with you, when I came into this hearing today and had a brief conversation with my colleague, Councilman Greenlee, for me it was a no-brainer to support the bill. I do appreciate some of the material you supplied us with and some of the facts and figures. On the weekends in your testimony you say that almost 31 percent of the customers will pay as opposed to allowing themselves to be shut off on the weekends. You get a higher response -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: We took the very last month of this past year and that's what we had. And we 37 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 said, look, take a look at the weekend days, how many people paid you and take a look at the weekdays during November, how many people paid you. What were those percentages. And I don't think it's a big surprise to -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: It's a ten percent difference, basically. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yeah. Well, it depends on how you do the math, but exactly, ten percentage points or so, correct. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: What do those numbers represent in hard numbers? What does the percentage represent in hard numbers? How many people are visited on a typical weekend, customers? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well, I may not have that -- I think we have a lot of data and I'm not going to be able to read it, but I do know that over the year, the annual period -- and I attached a table to my testimony. Our shut-off crews collect over $5 million at the 38 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 door, and 1.7 million of that comes on these weekend days, which means about one-third of their collection, a little more than one-third of their collections come on the weekend. So it's a two-thirds/one-third split between weekdays and weekends. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And how does this happen? Is it the same crew? Is there someone who is involved with the crew that actually does the shut-off that knocks on the door? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: It's a one-man crew. There are approximately crews that are sent out on a given 17 day. 18 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So the 19 same person who ultimately shut the water 20 off is the one that's asking for payment? 21 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes. 22 Yeah, and restoration. 23 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And 24 restoration. 25 Nothing further right now. 39 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Thank you.
Perhaps I missed this. I came in late, and I apologize. Perhaps I missed this. Of the 472,000 customers you have, how many get cut off or how many cut-offs are there in a year? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: About 31,000 this past year.
And how many of those were on weekends versus weekdays? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Approximately one-third I'm being told.
One-third? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: About one-third of the 31,000.
Were shut off on weekends and not weekdays? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Correct. 40 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CLARE: That would include Fridays as well and holidays.
Of your 6 people on the street, how many people do 7 you have doing shut-offs and -- 8 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: 9 Restoration? 10
-- 11 restoration on weekends versus weekdays? 12 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I 13 think it does vary depending on workload 14 at the time. For example, obviously 15 April is going to be a very heavy month 16 for us because we're coming out of the 17 non-shut-off season. We're coming out of 18 the moratorium season. And also in 19 November we try to visit the outstanding 20 accounts before they go into moratorium 21 as well. So those are two of the heavier 22 periods of time, and backlogs and -- what 23 the backlog is at any given time may also 24 influence how many folks we have to send 25 out on the weekend. 41 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076
I'm just wondering if the statistic of more successful or lots of collections on a weekend is a consequence of more people on the street on weekends because your employees get overtime if they're collecting on weekends, not during the week, or there's some other factor that would create an incentive to collect on weekends and not during the week within the system, including overtime or something else. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I believe that the major reason is that we are more likely to run into somebody, almost 50 percent more likely, if that equation holds, percent during the 19 week and 30, 31 percent on the weekend. 20 I mean, it's less than 50 percent more, 21 but I think it boils down to just a 22 higher likelihood to find a live person at the house when we go.
Have you done any testing since Councilman 42 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Greenlee first raised this of sending people out on weekends and asking them for money, telling them if they don't pay then, they will be shut off on Monday? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: Debra McCarty, Deputy of Operations. We are in the moratorium now, so we're not doing residential shut-offs and so we can't go out -- I mean, we're not getting -- Revenue is not giving us the accounts to go shut off or even to try to collect the money.
But this issue was raised a long time ago. When you were not in moratorium, after having first discussed this issue with Councilman Greenlee, have you ever tried that? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: Well, I believe it was just this past fall, so it really wasn't that much time, but --
Is that when it was first introduced? 43 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Was it earlier, Councilman?
Well, I couldn't have put the bill in in August. That was where the problem was. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I think I can give the answer. I don't think we tried that methodology, that I recall. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: What we do do is that if -- I mean, we try to work with the customer, because we don't want to shut anybody off. We want them to pay their bill. And so if we go to a property and someone there is like, Wait, wait, wait, don't shut me off, I'll get you the money, we'll come back and do that and not shut them off. The same folks that do the shut-off are the ones that do the 44 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 restores, and so, I mean, one of the first things our folks do in the morning is catch all the restores that we didn't do overnight when people have gone down to MSB or whatever. So we're always trying to get people back in service as quickly as possible when they've paid or made arrangements to pay or there's a medical issue. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: The other thing that's not being said exactly is that many folks amongst our customers who are very keen on knowing what is happening in the neighborhood, if there's some kind of change in the way enforcement is being done, if there's some kind of new policy or some -- a lot of vacancies or what-have-you and you're somehow less likely to get shut off, they may gamble a little bit more than otherwise. If the word on the street is, You know what, you get that shut-off notice, they're going to be there within a day or two, you'd better -- you should 45 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 pay up, otherwise you may find -- you may come home and find an unhappy situation. So I think the fact that the word on the street is that the Water Department has been pretty aggressive with going after delinquent customers who have had all of these opportunities to keep their service, once you've gone through all of that, you know, you're likely to see us very quickly, and that helps us as well. I think that's one of the reasons that we've gone from 48 percent on-time collections back in the '90s, in the mid '90s, to approximately 60, 62 percent today.
Well, I think what you're hearing here is that if there was confidence that people's water would be quickly restored on the weekends when it's shut off, that there would be less of an issue with the way you're conducting yourselves. And I don't have really a question there. I just leave you with that. 46 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Ms. McCarty -- and I'm sorry I didn't catch the whole thing when you were answering Councilman Green's question -- you said that during the moratorium times, that Water Revenue doesn't send anything over to you to know what the status is of certain -- DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: Well, no. Water Revenue is the agency that sends us the accounts that should be shut off. So that's what we don't get during the moratorium.
I mean, couldn't you get that and do these -- see, I guess what I disagree with is, how do you know that these personal contacts won't work unless you try it? You know what I'm saying? Like Councilman DiCicco 47 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 and I, he had a couple suggestions, but maybe there's different times that you can work during the week. I don't understand why you're so convinced that just personal contact, without having to shut off that moment, won't work, saying, This is your last chance, give me the money, kind of thing. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: Well, I mean --
Because you didn't try it. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: Well, they haven't paid when they got notices in their bill. They haven't paid when they got the 45-day shut-off notice. They haven't paid or made arrangements when they got the 15-day notice. So it took me to come to the door with the wrench and the threat of the wrench apparently. I mean, that's --
Apparently you don't -- I mean, maybe just the personal contact would make a 48 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 difference. I mean, I don't know. I'm just suggesting that as a -- and, again, I get back and I agree with Councilman Green, and I would go a little farther than him. I know it's not working right now. Not that I don't have the confidence. I know it doesn't work. With all due respect, it might work sometimes. It doesn't work enough. And what I'm saying is that maybe there's another creative way of doing it. Councilman DiCicco had a suggestion or two on that. But right now it's not -- this whole weekend thing is not working, I don't think, in a fair manner to the customers. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: Well, and we still stand, as we said before, committed to working with you to coming up with ideas on how to improve it. I mean, if we could get specifics on what the issues are, we know we can do things --
I told 49 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 you last year what the issues are. People call on the weekend when they're shut off and they don't get the response. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: But, Councilman, every property there's a story, and so it's not just the generic we shut you off, we shouldn't have shut you off.
And I have over the years dealt Water Revenue on specific -- Water Revenue and Water. I'm not sure half the time who I'm talking to. And most of the time I found that the people at least in that case are telling the truth. Not everybody. I know people tell you stories all the time. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: Well, no, and I --
And to be honest with you, I've come to question stories more than other people because I've been hearing them for 30 years. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: I 50 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 apologize. I believe you misinterpreted when I said a story. I didn't mean a tale. I meant there are issues that are specific to that individual property, not that they're telling us a story as in a lie. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Councilman, I wouldn't be here opposing this legislation, this proposed ordinance, if we were talking about more reasonable numbers of potential shut-offs. Sixty-six thousand customers is an awful big mountain for us to climb. Personal service is great, but it's very expensive. We have to use the due process that we have to the best of our abilities, and, yes, we've made mistakes at times, but we can adopt pretty much a belt and suspender situation for the weekend just to allow us to continue to reach all the customers that we should reach for shut-off, because that ultimately is the only real weapon we have. 51 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076
I think Councilman DiCicco has sort of a piggyback on this.
Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. What are the hours that the crews are out with the shut-offs? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well, I know it's daylight hours. We don't want those crews out there in the evenings, for example, but -- DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McCARTY: 7:30 to 6:30. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: 7:30 a.m. to 6:30 p.m. Well, that answers my one comment about if you went after the work hour, maybe you'd find more people home. And that's seven days a week? The Saturday hours are the same? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CLARE: Correct. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: There was 52 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 a comment I was making to my colleague here. Do you have a process or have you thought about, I guess it's, a robo-call, a phone call being made to the customer hours in advance? I mean, I know 7 there's a cost associated with that, but 8 there's also a cost of the crew person 9 going out, and I was wondering if you can 10 reach a much larger universe of people, 11 66,000 potential, in addition to the 45- 12 and the 15-day notification. 13 Has that ever been thought of? 14 And I'm not being critical. I'm just 15 asking. Maybe that's part of this 16 ongoing discussion. 17 Does it make sense economically 18 to have that call go out at the dinner 19 hour or whatever time it is and hopefully 20 you find someone home? If you don't, I 21 would suspect that most people have some 22 sort of a phone messaging device on their 23 phone that you can leave and say, You 24 have 24 hours to call this number back or else we're shutting your water off. 53 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I do know that the Water Revenue Bureau looked into outbound calling, almost automatic calling, and for whatever reason, I don't think it worked out, and this was back in the 1990s. I'm not saying it's something that shouldn't be revisited. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well, technology in the '90s was great, but it's not going to be what it is today. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Right. Now, our billing system doesn't necessarily have everyone's phone number. I mean, presumably they have a number of phone numbers, but -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Just a thought, because my understanding is that PGW has some sort of a system like that in place. Steve was just here. I don't know where he is. But I don't know how well it's working for PGW, but it's a similar kind of situation. I mean, we got the 54 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 moratorium. One is water and one is gas, but it's really one and the same thing. It's a utility. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: We would love to have as many tools as possible in our tool chest to go out and try to get this revenue, because it's important to us, it's important to our ratepayers, and cash flow, of course, is of great importance as well. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Again, I'm only looking at the technology. I'm not a technology wont, by no means, but if you can reach that audience, that customer base, that many more people by way of a phone call, it would probably help not only in collections, but it would reduce or it would narrow down that universe of people who you definitely would have to go out and shut off. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Sure. Sure. No. I mean -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: It saves you time and energy and fuel and 55 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 everything else. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Right. Right. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Are there any other questions or comments? (No response.)
Thank you. Next we have Phil Lord, Candida Swenson, Jennifer Thompson. After Phil Lord, is CLS, Phil Bertocci here? Okay. And I see Al Searight following him. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Thank you very much. Please identify yourself for the record and begin your testimony.
My name is Phil Lord. Thank you, Councilwoman Blackwell, and thank you, Councilman Greenlee, for 56 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 this bill. We were expecting a couple other tenants that haven't shown up yet, and if they do, we'll let you know before I finish, but I'll just cover a couple of points while we're waiting for them. First of all, as you know, TURN is a tenant advocacy organization. We assist thousands of tenants each year. We have workshops. We have individual counseling that we do. We do outreach. We have substantive programs. And in trying to help tenants, we see a lot of people who have utility problems, and these are utility problems of all kinds, and they include, of course, shut-offs. And our experience is very different than what you might have heard today, and, that is, that a lot of these people have had no warning about the shut-off. In other words, their first instance of a shut-off taking place is in fact no water being there, and that's very often because the landlord who is responsible 57 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 for the bill has not let the tenant know that there's a problem and they haven't actually gotten notice of it. USTRA, which we believe should be followed consistently, very often does not get followed, and so even when tenants go down to the Water Department to say, We want to pay the bill, they're told that they have to get the landlord to come down and pay the bill, that they can't pay the bill themselves. They're not even allowed to find out what the amount of the bill is or to make a partial payment, and that's a real serious problem. So getting shut off on the weekends, as you can imagine, seriously exacerbates all these issues, because there's nothing they can do until the following week to either get the landlord involved or to find out what is really going on. So for tenants, it's a very difficult problem. As we all know, water is a necessity, so you can't send your -- 58 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 you know about drinking and bathing, but they say you never miss the water until the well runs dry. You can't send your kids to school. Sometimes your heating system depends on water. So our people that we see are in very desperate straits when water shut-offs occur on the weekends. Even when they occur during the week, it's a very difficult effort to get it restored and to get the authority to do that. So we're really glad that this bill has come forward and we're hoping that it gets passed, because we think it's going to protect a lot of people, give them more time to deal with these problems, more time to contact their landlords and try to work things out. So we thank you for this.
Thank you, Mr. Lord. We accept the fact that without water, one might as well enter a shelter. That's what takes us there.
Just very quickly. If I could just add to that that even for people -- and I know there are many situations like you described, Mr. Lord, but I would argue even for the people who are delinquent, are truly delinquent, should have been turned off, it's just much more difficult, as you said, trying to deal with this problem over the weekend. You get shut off on a Tuesday, you come home from work, you screwed up, you should have done something. Well, on Wednesday you got your butt down there doing something. On the weekend, it's much more difficult to do, and, again, I think that's why this is necessary, both for the innocent people -- and I think there are a lot of them that you're describing -- but even the people that aren't so innocent, let's say.
Thank you, Councilwoman Blackwell. I'm Philip Bertocci. I am the Supervising Attorney of the Energy Unit of Community Legal Services. I'm going to depart from my written testimony, which I think has been reproduced and has been circulated, and after listening to what has been said, kind of respond to some of the points that have been made on the basis of my knowledge and share a little bit of my research with you also. If I were looking at this from your standpoint, I would ask the Water Department to provide much more specific statistics about the number of attempts they make for shut-offs on Saturday, 61 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Sunday and holidays, because in my experience of ten years of doing utility work, I don't see very many people being shut off on, say, Christmas Day or Thanksgiving or Memorial Day. I don't see many City workers out there at all on those days. Friday is the real issue for us and the day before holidays is the real issue, and I'm somewhat surprised to hear the Water Department saying that Saturday is such a precious day and that they are so eager to shut people off on New Year's Day and all that kind of stuff, because I don't think -- it just doesn't quite -- there may be shut-offs that occur on those days and there may be shut-offs that occur for emergency reasons on those days, but I'm a little bit skeptical about whether or not the importance of the weekend and of holidays that the Water Department is presenting would really stand up when you look at the numbers. The second thing I would say is 62 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 that if you look at the website for the Water Revenue Bureau, it's open from 8:00 to 5:00, 8:30 to -- 9:00 to 5:00 in some places. No; it's 8:00 to 5:00 in some places and 8:30 to 5:00. I don't see anybody getting through to the Water Revenue Bureau after 5 o'clock in the afternoon, calling any phone number at all. And just to share with you some of my research, most utility regulations nationwide say that a utility cannot shut someone off at any hour when they are not open to be able to then respond. So that, again, I think we have a chronic structural problem of working between the Water Department and the Water Revenue Bureau. We have a new Administration and we also have a new Revenue Commissioner, but it seems to me that this is a dialogue which involves more than just hearing from the Water Department. We need and you need to be 63 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 talking to both the Water Revenue Bureau and the Water Department at the same time. The other point that I want to make is that this idea that a utility should not shut off on Friday, should not shut off on weekends, should not shut off on a holiday and should not shut off on the day before a holiday is not a new idea. I took a look at the National Consumer Law Center's Appendix, which summarizes the regulations of state utility commissions nationwide in all 50 states and the District of Columbia, and I found 16 different jurisdictions in which you can't shut off on any of those days. Not Friday, not Saturday, not Sunday, not a holiday and not the day preceding a holiday. And the reason for that is what we've heard, that why shut someone off when that person, if they're shut off by mistake or they're shut off because they didn't have the money -- and you're dealing with a population here 64 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 one-third of which are considered to be low-income customers. So you're dealing with people who are very close financially to the line generally. You have a very vulnerable population that's vulnerable to shut-off. And if they're vulnerable to shut-off, then a miscalculation often can lead to a mistake in shut-off simply because they've paid the money, but the money came in so close to the time that the shut-off occurred, that there couldn't be the necessary communication.
So when we look at the jurisdictions, the reason that you have these regulations and say you can't shut off on a Friday is that mistakes happen and that you shouldn't have to go a whole weekend if you're ready to try to deal with a problem and you're able to deal with a problem, getting a friend to help you pay if it's a matter of a payment arrangement. You have to run the payment arrangement through the Water Revenue 65 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Bureau. You can't run it through the Water Department. If there was a mistake, you can't clear up the mistake very easily by calling someone who has limited authority on Saturday, even if you could get through to the Water Revenue Bureau. One of the states -- am I talking simply about states that are ways -- Nevada or Arizona or someplace else? No. We're talking about New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts. Those are the ones that immediately come to mind, but I list them all. Delaware says you can't shut off after noon on Friday, but all other respects, Delaware also agrees with what I consider to be really a common sense and productive policy. We've heard a lot about how, well, this is going to hurt the bond ratings, this is going to hurt our collections activities. To my mind, this is a management issue. Utilities are 66 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 duty-bound to provide reasonable service. The Water Department says that customers are unreasonable when they get themselves shut off for whatever reason, but even if that's true, which I don't accept, it's unreasonable for the Water Department to shut them off in a situation where then the Water Department and the Water Revenue Bureau are not immediately ready to deal with them when they say, Okay, you've gotten our attention, here we are with our money, we want to make a payment agreement, we want to correct this error, and all you hear is a busy signal, or not even that, until the following Monday or the day after the holiday. So that's the essence of what I had to say. I also think that while we're talking about shut-offs, there are two reasons why you can shut someone off under Water Department regulations which have nothing to do with an emergency situation or with theft, and we've talked 67 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 about non-payment in this bill, but there's also people that can get shut off for failure to provide access to the meter, and that occurs under all kinds of circumstances. Remember, a lot of people aren't home a lot of the time. Again, the question in my mind is, what is the necessity of making a household go through even a weekend without service for a simple failure to provide access to the meter? It doesn't seem to me that that's something that rises to the level of having to shut someone off immediately. And so I would ask Council to consider possibly including that provision also, that you can't shut someone off either for non-payment or for, quote, refusal to provide access to the meter. Usually it just means that the communications have not worked for all kinds of reasons. Some of them obviously have to do with dealing with the bureaucracy. Some of them have to deal with simply human nature. But, 68 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 again, the question is, does the punishment fit the crime. Should you shut someone off on a Friday or the day before Christmas, for instance, simply because they haven't provided access to the meter when you know that they may not be able to get service, when the Water Department may not be able to even come out there and look at the meter until a few days later? So that's what I have to say. I appreciate the opportunity to be heard by you.
Thank you very much. Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Thank you. Good afternoon. Do you have any recommendations, suggestions, ideas on what the Water Department and Water Revenue may or should do to prevent us from getting to that point of the shut-off? I mean, we get the notices, but realistically -- and 69 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 I'm sure there are some people who are not able to pay on time or whatever, but there is a 45-day period of notification. We keep talking about the shut-off, but do you have any idea what we might be able to do in a more proactive way during that 45-day period so that we don't get to that point of the shut-off?
Could I respond to that? I'm Albert Searight. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: My question is to him, then I'll get to you. Thank you. Thank you.
The response really, I think -- I mean, I think you've asked a very good question, and basically even from the point of view of a consumer advocate, I think it's important that utilities collect as much as they can from residential customers, especially residential customers who can pay. For residential customers that just can't pay, they should be required to make a decent effort and to pay what they can 70 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 afford to pay. On the state level, we've been going through this debate, which really hasn't been reflected here, but it has to do with collection practices, and the Water Revenue Bureau really is not a customer-friendly place. It doesn't really -- if you looked at their practices, their practices really at this point, given the increasing level of water bills, doesn't really adequately respond to the needs of their customer population. For instance, PGW has a Customer Responsibility Program where they provide discounted bills to about 75,000 to 80,000 customers in Philadelphia. PECO provides discounted bills to about 125,000 customers in the Southeastern Pennsylvania area. The last time I looked, the Water Revenue Bureau has a very cumbersome Water Revenue Assistance Program, which I think has well less than 15,000 people in it. And if people are getting bills 71 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 that they can't afford, then -- I mean, many people are getting bills that they can't afford, then that's the beginning step of putting them on a shut-off path, and it would be better to be getting from them what they can afford and you would be sparing yourselves all the expense that you're -- all the money that you're putting into crews going out there and shutting people off and turning them on again, and all that kind of stuff might be better spent in another way. The same also could be said -- and I'm not going to go on because I could go on for hours on this -- on payment agreements. The Water Revenue Bureau is a very difficult place to deal with for payment agreements. When you look at their regulations, there seem to be regulations which provide for some kinds of payment agreements for all kinds of customers, whether they're low income or not low income, but most of the time when someone goes down there, the answer 72 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 that they get is half of what's owed, and in many cases half of what's owed is really more money than low or low-income people can afford. So that what you have is a bureaucracy, which is not very friendly, which does not inquire into the really -- does not systematically -- I mean, I think there are City workers in Philadelphia who are gems at all levels, and if someone gets a sympathetic City worker, that person is going to find a way to help them. But too often in our experience -- and, of course, we only see most of the time the people that didn't get helped. In our experience, people get essentially stonewalled by the Water Revenue Bureau by the front line there, and that just helps to keep them on the track to ultimately a shut-off. And that's not a healthy utility practice, especially in this day and age when the cost of utilities -- even water bills are going to go up, because part of the 73 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 reason being water sewer charges are going to go up because of the needs to deal with environmental problems. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well, I don't know if you answered my question. You gave me more reasons to ask the same question. Do you have any recommendations or suggestions that you could offer that may help us in this area of providing a better service for the customer?
Well, CLS is certainly happy to work with the Water Revenue Bureau in developing a much better Customer Assistance Program than they have now. Right now, I mean, most utilities, even in Pennsylvania -- well, Pennsylvania used to have the rule that is in this proposed legislation involving shut-offs. That rule was overruled by the latest Chapter 14 PUC legislation governing shut-offs and collections. It's probably still a little bit questionable whether PGW can really shut 74 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 someone off on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday -- I mean, on a Saturday or Sunday even under the existing circumstances. I don't think the practice is to shut anybody off for non-payment on a Saturday or Sunday or on a holiday or even on a day preceding a holiday. Again, I think this is a small step in the right direction, but I think that Council should regard it as a first step and that other kinds of actions need to be taken to make collections more rational and essentially more efficient, while at the same time dealing with the needs of the customer population. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you very much. Mr. Searight, we're ready for you. Excuse me, colleagues, for pushing this ahead. Some people have to leave. 75 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076
Sure. No 3 problem. My name is Albert Searight and I'm with TURN as well. I just want to make a couple quick comments. One is that the most problem that we encounter is where the landlord is responsible for the bill, and it would be helpful if before shutting a service off, the notices would be sent to the tenant when the bill goes to the landlord business address and/or home address, so that the first notice wouldn't be the service man at the curb cutting them off. I think that would be helpful. Also, many times the tenant is required to pay 100 percent of the bill 18 if the Water Revenue Bureau do not have a good address for the landlord, which makes it very prohibitive as well for a tenant to have someone come to the door and want 100 percent of the bill and think they had a pretty -- they're the two things that I wanted to add to the testimony so far. 76 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076
Just very quickly. Thank you, Madam Chair. I think, Mr. Searight, you're right and we have seen a lot of times where those notices haven't been given, but I think legally they're supposed to be. But that's often times the problem, that they're not or they're not done in a proper manner, that people don't know. And maybe some tenants know, some don't. But I agree. I've seen that a lot, and obviously, to belabor the point slightly, you could work that out somewhat easier during the week than you can on the weekends.
Thank you very much. Thank you. 77 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076
All right. Ms. Brooks, Ms. Grady. Ms. Joyce Brooks, Ms. Grady. Then we'll go back to -- and then Adele Butler, Action Alliance. Is Action Alliance here? (No response.)
Since I see no one raising their hand, I'll assume they're not. Okay. Ms. Weaver, and then we'll do -- is Nilsa Colon, Friends Neighborhood Guild, are you here? Okay. That is our witness list that I have for this bill. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Please join us. Thank you very much. Welcome. Please identify yourself for the record and begin your testimony. We will assume that all who are 78 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 here to testify have now been called. We're sorry, PGW. We'll get to you. We're at the tail end of our testimony. Thank you and welcome.
My name is Lance Haver. I'm Director of Consumer Affairs for the City. Ms. Grady came to our office with a complaint with her water bill. I personally went with her to try and get it straightened out. I had a very similar experience and have had similar experience as Councilman Greenlee with being unable to do so, and I thought Council could benefit greatly from hearing Mrs. Grady's not one, not two but three turn-offs, one in the middle of the winter right after she went and appealed her bill and was told there would be no 25 more shut-offs. 79 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Ms. Grady?
Yes. I am -- I was alone and I sent somebody down into my -- I first started off in '02 and '03 when my water was read from the street and kept complaining to the Water Company, and then came out a man to the meter, who said there was something wrong with the meter. The meter was going up and down, up and down. I went to the Water Company. They did recognize it at first. They offered me some credits. And then after a couple of months, the reader went up really, really from like, say, $40 to 1,000 and some dollars. And I went back again, and then they went in and they tried to correct it again. And then a couple of months later, it went up to like 1,000 and something. Then the meter do whatever it want to do. The meter man came out twice. And so I kept trying with the Water Company, and they gave me credits, 80 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 but they wiped it out, when the meter started to go up like from $40 and $37 to 1,000 and something dollar. I tried. I wrote. I went there. I did everything. They put me in the Collection Department. I worked with them. I tried. I wrote them, and everything I sent certified letters. And then instead of that, the Water Company kept increasing, increasing, increasing our bill, and I kept begging, could I get together with them and straighten it out. I went down in the latter part -- I sent somebody in July. They only want to go back one year. They never resolved the solution from before. They want to go back one year. Then they tell me they couldn't see anything back that far. So I went down, and first somebody went -- I was in the hospital getting my two knees done. I had wrote to them before. I had a degenerated back. Both of my knees had gone. I 81 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 said, Let me know when I can come, somebody can bring me. Instead of that, Mrs. Brooks carried me down there. I went down there on my walker, and I spoke to somebody named Ms. Nixon, who told me she had to pull the microfilm, because I said, What you're not looking at is what we're dealing with that you never resolved all those thousands of dollars and there was nothing wrong and the meter have not been changed and looked into. I just need you to get me an accurate bill 14 so we can get together on the bill. She promised me she would pull, I guess -- is it the microfilms? I'm not all that good, competent. But anyway, she said she had to go back and get it, but she didn't. Instead of that -- that was around October, on Tuesday. And then on the 3rd of November, instead of them doing this, she promised me -- I asked her, What should I do? What can I do? She said, Nothing. I said, Will they cut my water 82 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 off? She said, No, not until we finish with the inquiry and then -- so we went through that. They cut me off on a Saturday, and I begged for help, and I did get somebody, who promised to put me back on. Now, I was explaining to them, I can't sit on a regular toilet. I can't get into the tub right. I need the medicine. I'm on ten medications. I really need my water. They promised to put it back on. They didn't get it back. One of the man from the restore came on Sunday, brought me some water. He told me the man broke my pipe, he couldn't put it back on. He would. But he did tell me in a letter that since I was sick and elderly and that they would put it back on, but instead when I did, Monday morning, all I got was arguments and abuses from them. And then they told me, send in my doctor letter. They going to 83 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 send me a doctor slip. They didn't bring it. My doctor gave me a slip, said fax it in, send it in. I sent it in. Then on the 16th, I'm in the house. They came back. They cut me back off on the 16th of November. And I said to her, You got the fax, because I have a fax machine. It said you got it. Look in your fax machine.
Finally, she did put me back on that day in about three or four hours, but then I asked for them to take me to a hearing so that I can explain this. And Mr. Lance said that -- I didn't know what to do. I saw one of the politician's letter, who said -- I was praying and crying that Sunday when I was in there with no water. He said to call down to the Mayor's Office, and then Ms. Brooks, I knew her, she called. And then I had Ms. Power, who helped me. So we called the Mayor's Office and I asked him to help me, because I didn't know what else to do. I've been 84 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 trying. So that's how they got involved, and they was trying to help me and trying to make some sense to the Water Company. And then they told me back in November 28th, they found my inquiry. At first they didn't see it. They would give me back a thousand dollars, but they never put that on my bill. They did the same thing like they did in '04. They promised and didn't put it back. But I have all my papers, all my letters that I brought to Mr. Lance and them to let them see that you just -- you're a little weak and you can't reason. But now it's like they told me the last time that I wasn't authorized to have any water and I could be fined $300 or one year in prison, and that was after Mr. Lance went with me. He went with me on the 28th of January, and he heard the judge and the Water Company say they would not cut my water off. But on the 85 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 5th of February, they cut it off again. And I feel helpless, because I've been trying to fight. My son was saying, Momma, there's four in my family. Why are you paying so much water bill? You need to just keep on. I'm helpless. You're helpless because you don't have no win, and nobody -- Ms. Nixon don't know she said her name was Ms. Nixon. She didn't remember. Every time it's a mistake, it's a mistake. You talk to somebody, then nobody knows what happened. It's a mistake. And we're helpless. I'm not the only one. I hear other peoples are the same way. We're helpless. We're helpless, because they have the control. They don't look. They don't go in to see, and they'll see and won't recognize it. They'll see it. She pulled those microfilm and saw it, but they don't recognize it, and they just treat you whatever way they want to.
We are 86 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 very, very sorry. Obviously the Commissioner is here. We will ask somebody to speak with you. Thank God you have Lance Haver, in him a good man.
And we're very, very sorry to hear about this, and we certainly are asking the Commissioner and his folks who are here to deal with this today. Thank you. They will speak with you right behind the gate.
Excuse me. I had -- because I think the Councilwoman Blackwell called on me.
Okay. My name is Joyce Brooks. I'm with the Black Woman's Survival Network. 87 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 The issue that Ms. Grady is testifying to is an example of thousands of Philadelphians in Kensington, Fishtown, North Philadelphia, West Philadelphia and Germantown in terms of the Water Department's treatment of Philadelphia citizens. The other problem starts with the Water Revenue Bureau. There is no education to the citizens and consumers of Philadelphia about the structure of the Water Revenue Bureau. Did City Council enact the Water Revenue Bureau to come in existence from the Finance Department? I never heard any hearings about it. But the effect literally is that the Water Department receives mistakes and they act on those mistakes. Now, one thing I'd like to say before I close, in May of 2004, the Water Department sent a letter to Mrs. Grady notifying her, number one, the meter was bad, they had made a mistake and that they were going to correct it. She has 88 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 shown that letter to everyone. We are here testifying in behalf of thousands of Philadelphians who couldn't find their way down here, who couldn't get through the security, who couldn't get up the steps to give you this message: At least start off with no 9 water shut-offs. And, by the way, there is no moratorium on shut-offs. She got shut off in January, in February and November. What moratorium? Thank you very much.
Thank you very much. We are also asking the Water Commissioner of the department to respond to this Committee with resolve on this issue. Mr. Haver?
Councilman DiCicco asked what people would recommend to help 89 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 people pay their bills. I do think that every time someone is struggling, it's an opportunity for us to get them EITC, LIHEAP, Crisis, food stamps, senior citizen tax rebates, and that we should at every one of our offices, wherever people come in for contact to work out repayment agreements, have information available so that we can draw down as much federal money as possible. The second point I'd like to make is, the City owns not only the Water Department but also the Gas Works. My gas meter and my water meter are very close together. I think it's time to consider combining gas and water for their billing, collection and meter reading. And if the Water Department really is concerned about having someone available on Saturdays so that they can do shut-offs on Friday, they ought to enter into an agreement with PGW to have someone from the Water Department staffing the PGW office that's open on 90 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Saturday so consumers can come down and make arrangements. That way, they could continue to do their shut-offs on Friday, if they really think they're necessary, but the consumers would have someone they could go and see on Saturday to get their water on and people wouldn't end up in Ms. Grady's condition. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Thank you. The final person, Ms. Weaver, I understand you are here, although you didn't respond. Gertrude Weaver, Carroll Park Community Council. And we will assume that our testimony for this bill 22 is concluded; is that correct? After this, we'll ask those from PGW to be ready. (Witness approached witness 91 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 table.)
Thank you very much. Thanks for your patience, Ms. Weaver.
My name is Ms. Gertrude Weaver. I'm the Deputy Director of Carroll Park Community Council. I'm here to represent the clients that we see on a regular basis. Carroll Park is a neighborhood energy center. We actually do LIHEAP, Crisis and USEF. We actually see 5,000 people in a year. To answer the question what can be done to help solve some of these programs or solve the issues with people coming in when they have their services shut off on the weekend, we are there to help, but we can't do anything if the Water Department is closed, if the gas company is closed. Our office hours are 92 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Monday through Friday from 9:00 to 5:00. When people come, we do negotiations for our clients, and we can't negotiate anything if they have been turned off on a Saturday or before a holiday. This type of -- as far as I'm concerned, this needs to be readdressed from Monday to Thursday as it was five, ten years ago, ten, years ago, so 11 we'll be in place to be able to better 12 serve our people in our community. 13 That's all I need to say. 14
Thank 17 you, Ms. Weaver. 18 Councilman Greenlee. 19
20 Ms. Weaver, very quickly, thank you for your testimony, and I think you illustrate a good point. Organizations like yours are not out there and, you know what, we're not as easily reachable either when people have problems, and 93 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 that's another reason why I think it's a reasonable suggestion to just have it Monday through Thursday. But I appreciate the real example you provide. Thank you, ma'am.
Thank you very much. Unless there's someone else to testify, we will move forward. We will ask the Clerk to read the title of Bill 13 No. 080076.
And we will ask PGW to come forward as he reads this bill. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
An ordinance 22 amending Bill No. 070368, entitled "An ordinance approving the Fiscal Year 2008 Capital Budget providing for expenditures for the capital purposes of the 94 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Philadelphia Gas Works, including the supplying of funds in connection therewith, subject to certain constraints and conditions, and acknowledging receipt of the forecast of capital budgets for Fiscal Years 2009 through 2013" by approving a revised Capital Budget for Fiscal Year 2008.
Thank you very much. Thanks for your patience, Mr. White and Ms. Parrish. Please begin your testimony.
Thank you very much. Good afternoon, Chairwoman Blackwell and members of the Committee. As you know, seated to my right is Craig White, the Executive Vice-President and Acting Chief Operating Officer of Philadelphia Gas works, and my name is Janet Parrish. I'm the Executive Director of the Philadelphia Gas Commission. Thank you very much for the opportunity to be here today in support 95 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 of this bill on behalf of the Philadelphia Gas Commission. The bill does embody the recommendations of the Commission to City Council, which were adopted at its meeting on November 20, 2007, and we have attached a copy of the Commission resolution to the written testimony, which I will not read at length here, as is customary. Very simply put, the bill would amend Philadelphia Gas Works' Fiscal Year 2008 Capital Budget by increasing it by approximately $1.6 million to add three new line items that we have found to be critical, and offsetting that with reductions of approximately $1.5 million to another line item. So more or less, we have a wash, and that was the way we intended to present this. We are asking respectfully for your support of the bill and that it be reported out of Committee and with a request for suspension of the rules so it 96 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 may have first reading at the next session of Council. I'm available to answer questions, as is Mr. White, should you have any.
Thank you. Are there any questions? (No response.)
You're welcome. We will ask your indulgence for a few moments. We're trying to amend one bill. We will be ready in a few moments, as soon as two more people return as well. Thank you. (Pause.)
Thank you very much. We will conclude the 97 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 hearing part of this meeting and formally enter stated meeting. The Chair now will recognize Councilman Greenlee to explain the amendment that we will adopt. This amendment has been passed out. It is not part of the title. It has been passed out to every member on the Committee, and he will explain what it is and then we'll enter into a vote.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be offering this amendment. It will have two parts. One will define that this just applies -- that the limits on the water shut-offs will just apply to residential properties, not any other, residential properties, and that it is not intended to prohibit the Water Department from otherwise engaging in collection activities on such days. So, in other words, they can go out on days that -- they cannot shut off, but still try to 98 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 collect. So being that the case, I move the amendment to Bill No. 080005. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved that the amendment to Bill No. 8 080005 be adopted. All in favor will say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and so the amendment is adopted. The Chair now recognizes Councilman Greenlee for a motion on the bill as amended.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that Bill No. 22 080005 as amended be reported out of this Committee with a favorable recommendation and move further that the rules of Council be suspended to allow for first 99 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 reading at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
Bill 8 No. 080005 has been moved and seconded. The rules have been suspended, and this will be heard at our next session of Council. All in favor again aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and the bill passes. The Chair recognizes Councilman Goode with regard to Bill No. 080076.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that Bill No. 080076 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation, that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit 100 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 first reading at our next Council session. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 7 080076 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation and, furthermore, that the rules of Council be suspended in order to permit first reading at our next session. All in favor will say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and so this also passes. That concludes our business today. We thank you all very much, and this is adjourned. Let the record show that five members were present. Curtis Jones was also a guest here, but also we have Councilman Green, Councilman Greenlee, 101 2/20/08 - FINANCE - BILLS 080005 & 080076 Councilman Frank DiCicco and myself and Councilman Goode for a formal quorum on both bills. Thank you. (Committee on Finance adjourned at 5:05 p.m.) - - - 102 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on February 20, 2008, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)