COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON RULES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, June 6, 2006 10:30 a.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL BILLS 060290, 060342, 060344, 060445, 060446, 060312, 060442, 060444 - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
Good morning, everyone. We regret the delay. However, we are now ready to proceed with the public hearing of the Committee on Rules. I would like the record to reflect to my immediate left is Councilwoman Miller. Also joining us to my extreme right is Councilman Kenney and Councilman Clarke. I would ask Mr. McPherson to please read Bill No. 060290. MR. McPHERSON: An ordinance to amend the Philadelphia Zoning Maps by changing the zoning designations of certain areas of land located within an area bounded by Poplar Street, Canal Street, Lewellen Street and Delaware Avenue.
Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record.
Good morning, Madam President and members of the Rules 3 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. Committee. My name is William Kramer. I am the Senior Zoning Planner in the Development Planning Division of the City Planning Commission. I am here today to testify on Bill 060290, which was introduced by Councilmember DiCicco April 20, 2006. This bill will rezone an approximately one acre area of property in a block bounded by Poplar Street, Delaware Avenue, Lewellen Street and Canal Street. The property is currently zoned G-2 General Industrial and this ordinance would change the zoning to a designation of C-5 Commercial. The change would allow for the development of a mixed-use commercial, office space, hotel and residential tower. This proposal calls for a development of approximately 1.4 million square feet, including two floors of retail commercial, with 36,000 square feet, three floors containing 66,000 square feet of office space, a ten-story hotel 4 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. providing 170 units, and 55 stories of residential development providing 352 units. In addition, a parking garage is proposed that will contain 1,100 parking spaces. The Planning Commission at its meeting of May 18, 2006 considered and approved Bill 060290. I would be happy to answer any questions of the Committee.
Thank you. Before asking you questions, I would also like to acknowledge the presence of Councilman Kelly. Mr. Kramer, how many stories tall would this building be?
Is the parking garage a separate building? If so, how tall will that be? 5 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
It is a separate building immediately adjacent to the tower. As far as its exact height, the architects are here and would probably be better able to answer that question.
I would like to hear. I don't know about other members of the Committee. If the architect is here, would he please approach the witness table.
Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record.
Yes. I wanted to thank you for the opportunity and I wanted to thank also your colleagues as well. My name is Jorge Lovera and I'm a principal with Agoos/Lovera Architects in Philadelphia. And I have my partner also with me.
Ted Agoos, also a principal with Agoos/Lovera Architects. 6 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
I believe you heard my question. We're told that the parking garage will be a separate building. My question is, how tall will it be?
You 13 really believe in a lot of the height, 14 don't you? 15
Well, actually, it will not be that high, because it's an automated parking garage. It is the type of technology that is --
No, there is no 23 ramps. And basically the height floor to floor is only maximum of eight feet versus 11 feet. So it's going to be a 7 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. much -- not as tall a building as it had been a traditional parking garage. And the height is --
It's about 140 feet. There's a 20-foot tall retail floor at ground level and then the 8 stories above that. 9
Why 10 don't you just sit there until we ask our 11 questions. I think that would be 12 helpful. 13 Of the approximate one acre of 14 property, how much of it will be covered 15 by the development?
Actually, there are two areas that will be open. One will be a park on the Canal Street side and then there's a galleria that is actually on the north side. Basically, as I recall, it's about 70 percent of the site will be open -- or 70 percent of the site is actually covered by the building.
Seventy percent is covered by the 8 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. building.
Can you tell me what the reaction of the community has been to this proposal, and also, Mr. Kramer, you could tell us probably what are the surrounding uses?
The surrounding uses to the immediate south are residential proposals that were, as a matter of fact, were considered about a year ago last June, were considered as the 700 North Delaware Brownstone Development Group. It was a development proposal, I believe it's, at Spring Garden Street. Immediately to the north we know that there have been no less than three or four applications currently under consideration by the Zoning Board of Adjustment. It's a former industrial area and there's a lot of industrial uses in here that are under the process of being 9 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. converted to residential. Some are more intensively being developed than others. This is obviously a much more intensive development residentially than currently on the other sites immediately to the north of this. Across Delaware Avenue is the waterfront development, the four towers that are on the river itself, as are a number of different towers that are here. This is also just a little bit north of the Marina View site, which is down by the Benjamin Franklin Bridge support that was also a matter considered by this Committee.
The last one was Mr. Chicalese. There have been a number of different developers that have gone on the other different sites. I don't know them all off the top of my head.
So we don't know who the present developer is? 10 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
Thank you. What is the projected cost of the development?
Mr. Stein, would you take the microphone, identify yourself.
Projected cost is 11 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. 350 million.
So if this were approved, what is the completion date?
Mr. Kramer, approximately how far is this site from the Delaware River?
Obviously it's right at Delaware Avenue. We're talking approximately 1,100 to 1,500 feet depending on where you measure it from.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney. 12 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
Thank you, Madam President. Gentlemen, could you describe the construction of the building? What's the primary elements of the building structure? How is it put together? I know it's a smaller site, so it's a larger mass going up. Could you talk a little bit about the structure of the property?
It's a good question. I mean, we have a terrific team together. It's an international team. Arup is the engineer for the project, the structural engineer, and they are one of the preeminent structural firms in the world. They've done a lot of projects of this nature in places like Hong Kong, Shanghai, New York and so on and on. David Scott is the principal designer working with us on this. And basically it's very similar to what you see right now going up at Comcast.
Where? I'm 13 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. sorry.
At Comcast, the Comcast Center. It's a poured-in-place concrete core that holds the elevators, trash chute, stairs, all the different means for public safety, and basically there are walls that are about three to four feet thick, and attached to those walls then will be this structural steel frame that actually will support the 66 floors. There are actually two floors that will be mechanical and structural floors. The structure at those floors is so that basically you maintain the exterior frame rigid and very much tight to the core of the building.
I've been doing a little research on another piece of legislation I'm looking at and I wanted to get your opinion generally. Does the design of this building include a lightning protection system?
And do the buildings that are being designed and built now generally of a certain height include that as part of the spec?
It's not a really very expensive element when it's done in the design and structure as opposed to other -- in the other levels of costs, that's really not a big number.
But it's handled from foundation level. It's addressed at the foundation level and then it just carries itself through the building.
And there's different issues as it relates to steel structure and wood frame structure and other types. So there's different types of protection systems that are required. I know this is not a lightning alley. This is not a Florida issue, but I do 15 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. know that as we go up higher with residential property, I understand it's more important to have the lightning protection systems in residential properties because of obviously the mass of people living there hours a day as 8 opposed to just having an office 9 building. So that's something that's 10 kind of general throughout the industry? 11
And is our 14 lightning propensity different than it 15 was? Is it the same? I understand that 16 it's rated based on a national standard 17 as to potential incidence. 18
I don't know 19 enough about that particular question to 20 give you an answer, but I don't know, 21 Marc, if -- 22
Yes. Yes. It's a general requirement of all the high-rises 16 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. today.
Yes. I believe it is, yes. I mean, I remember back all the way to the early '80s doing jobs out of state and it was always part of the Code to include it.
I wasn't sure it was included in the Code of Philadelphia, though. Is there a certain height requirement over which you need to do it?
I'm saying is there something in the Code that says over four stories, over five stories?
The other issue, what do you intend the range of -- is it condominium or is it apartments?
It's going to be a 17 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. mixed use, retail, commercial, hotel and then above that condos.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
This development, is it going to be determined by pre-sales whether or not you move ahead, or you're moving ahead regardless?
Financing 18 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. is in place?
The hotel component, is this based on any analysis of the City's hotel vacancy rate?
I mean, personally speaking, I'm a lifetime resident of Philadelphia and I really love the Boutique Hotel situation, and I think that the waterfront now that it's what's happening down there, I think it lends itself to like a Boutique situation. And we're looking at it more as a Boutique situation more than a --
Because we had a gentleman from the Hyatt in here maybe a year ago voicing some concern about his ability to have his occupancy at the level that he needed to have it. He was actually asking for some sort of 19 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. tax relief.
That was the big part of when we looked at it with these guys when we first started out. We have so much mixed use in it, it helps hedge the bet a little bit on the different elements of it, the retail, the commercial, the hotel and the condo. So that if one was a little bit affected, the other one could help pick up the difference in the fluctuation of the markets.
In the event that the hotel component is not successful, it could be converted to condos or apartments?
The footprint of the hotel floors is the same as the residential floors.
Also, we must add 20 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. that the Boutique Hotel is not a convention hotel, so it's expressly just rooms or suites of rooms, I mean, with some amenities. So it's different, very different, than what a Marriott or even a Hyatt probably would want to do.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Just for discussion's sake on Councilman Clarke's point, and I think we wind up having difficulty finding balance. We had our problems at the Convention Center, which seem to have been resolved. During the course of the fall-off on bookings, we had a number of hotels convert to condominiums, I think spurred by the lack of business and by the ten-year tax 21 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. abatement. We're expanding the Center now. So we could potentially be in a situation where we don't have enough hotel space once this Center is expanded. And then we look further down the road with some vision to potentially an Olympics situation, you know, we may be short rooms. It's a really hard formula to figure out, because at some point in time, you're either overstocked or you're understocked, but I think we're moving in the direction. With the expansion and with other things that are coming to the City, we may need to get more hotel rooms on line. The big hoteliers who struggle with rec rates and convention business and filling up the rooms do have those periods of flux where they're extremely concerned, and should be, but I think that what's coming expansion-wise and potentially some of the other major events that may be coming here, I think we may be in need of hotel space three, 22 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. five, seven, ten, 15 years from now.
The people that we've talked about are very excited about Philadelphia and they're very excited about the potential and what's happening here, and it's nice to hear that the hotel vendors, they're excited.
Obviously the expansion is for real, and that alone is going to hopefully create a situation where we're going to need some space, so hopefully it will all coincide in a timely way. Thank you.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.
Hi. Good morning. I see the bill talks about one acre. How many acres does this development take?
It's actually 23 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. only -- it's less than an acre. It's 32,600 square feet, the actual parcel.
The entire project encompasses about two and a half acres. That includes the site that has the parking garage as well as a galleria and retail space that surrounds it.
The 32,000 square foot footprint of the site for the Bridgman's View Tower is what you see here in the site plan. The additional piece of land is really just to the north of that, which is what also takes into account the parking garage. And all of that basically is the two and a half acres approximately for the whole complex.
I'm not -- 24 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: If I could just on that point. Part of the negotiations with the community association led to this final design with the parking garage, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Stein, because the community was as concerned and probably most concerned with public space. So Mr. Stein then had to purchase an additional parcel in which to build the parking garage on so that they could provide for a set-back and create public space. And I forgot what the percentage of the public space is, 30 percent or something.
We'll be 30 percent. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: So that's why originally it was just the one acre built, even a taller structure, which did not suit the community at the time, and then as a result of the negotiations, as I said, another parcel was purchased by the developer to build a parking garage 25 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. and create that public space.
President Verna, if I may, I could actually explain to you a little bit more fully how especially the ground floor is really laid out, if you would like to.
Is the Committee interested in hearing? Councilman Kenney.
I think members would like to -- some of the members would like to be informed. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I have an open invitation to this Committee, since I have a lot of projects, to come to my community meetings and be part of that whole discussion.
Councilman, I've been to your community meetings. No, thank you. 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
You have your own. The project we call the Bridgman's View Tower, and that's a 66-story structure that we just talked about, and that's in the south part of the site and that's this floor plan that you see here before you. Then there's a glazed galleria, which actually is really for basically pedestrian ways. It's part of the open space. There's some shopping there as well. And then there's the parking garage, which you see here on this portion of it, which is what we just described earlier. And in addition to that also is retail, two levels of retail, and two levels of office space above that, not significant numbers, but it's part of the complex. What we were able to do from an open land kind of park point of view is really pull the building towards Delaware Avenue, and by doing so, we have actually a fairly extensive park, as you can see, on this part of the floor plan. And it's 27 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. not just a park, but it's also a place where basically a cafe, outdoor dining can occur. There's possibly a water course as well. So it's really a great amenity that is not only for the residents of the complex, but also for the community as well. In addition to that, as I said, there's the kind of glazed galleria, which is the element that connects the tower itself to the lower-rise element, which is what you see here. You can see the view, pedestrian view, from Poplar Street. This is Poplar. Canal is going over to the side, and then you have Delaware Avenue just on the foreground -- or background. And one thing that we were very interested in doing -- because when you get into high-rise construction, a lot of times architects miss the ball game. I mean, by the fact that you have eight or ten stories of parking, there has to be a transition between the tower itself and 28 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. the pedestrian areas, and when Marc was able to get the additional parcel to the north, then the garage moved out of the original tower, which was really creating some issues in terms of scale and how you really allow this tower to come gracefully down to the ground. So at this point, we've been able to achieve that by the fact that the retail and the office is only five stories. So that is only about 75, 80 feet instead of 175 feet.
And as you can see in some of these renderings -- and these are preliminary, but they're pretty much telling the story -- is really a tower that actually, as I said before, I mean, gracefully comes down to the ground plane. And not only that, but also we've 29 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. created this logia, which is like a columnated area that people can be out of the element, even in summertime. I mean, you can have tables and chairs and people can sit out there, just like you do in Europe where -- they're a little bit ahead of us in that sense. Well, that's what we're adapting here. We're not creating something new, but in a way we're transporting that from that part of the world. And so these dark dots that you see are the columns, and there's about 12 feet in between that and the retail wall. So as a Philadelphian, as somebody coming to visit the City, you can also shop a shop in the embrace of this logia and you can also have cafes out there that actually would have tables, enough space for comfort of tables and chairs, take people in. And so that's really the two sides, the Delaware Avenue side and the Poplar side, and then as I said 30 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. previously, the west side or the Canal Street side is actually this grand park. In addition to that also, we're treating Canal Street as a great amenity. I mean, right now it's a forgotten trash-strewn area, but it's a cobblestone, it has a lot of character and it's got a lot of history, because that's where part of this little creek came across, which is now in a culvert. So we're actually going to reclaim that wonderful character and bring it back to life by providing additional retail along Canal Street as well. All the entrance to the parking garage and exiting from the parking garage will be done off Delaware Avenue, and much of that traffic will actually be onto Delaware Avenue. Not much of it actually being forced onto the community itself.
What are the neighboring properties? I mean, what's next to this? 31 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
I believe it's probably with an S probably. So that's all north of the site. Brownstone or Hoboken Brownstone would be to the south. To the west, I mean, there's a couple of vacant lots and one or two small residential places. It's very interesting, because I-95 -- I don't think we have a drawing that shows that, but what community exists west of I-95 is very different than what happens east of I-95, as most of you probably know. West of I-95 is this very densely residential, largely at this point residential community, with some light industrial still existing. To the east, I mean, it's only a few pockets 32 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. of residential. Most of it is either abandoned industrial or somewhat underperforming industrial. So in a way, it's a very natural kind of place for some development of this nature to really happen. In addition to the two floors of, just to expand a little bit, of retail, there's three office and then there's two amenity floors above that. You see a little bit of it here with trellises, which are going to be the lower level, lower amenity level, is basically a health spa, a restaurant and also access to the green roof. And by the way, the project is going to be a lead certified project. So it's a green architecture. That is also going to be accessible by the community and visitors and so on. The upper amenity floor is going to be the registration floor for the hotel and the shops and so on. So the lower amenity floor will have a green 33 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. roof for portions of it, as will the garage. The roof of the garage will be trellised, will have portions of it that will be green roof and will also have a pool as well for the use of the residents of the tower.
And you said the cost of the condos are from 600,000 to 1 million?
It's pretty much a generality right now. It could be a little bit lower. It's all about the...
Sometimes I wonder. You said that the hotel industry is excited about what's going on here in Philadelphia. So I guess people must be excited, too. When doing your 34 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. feasibility study, where do you believe you get your tenants from? Philadelphians?
We believe there's a cross-section. We believe there's a lot of people moving back into the City. We think there's a generation now that the kids are older and they're moving back to the City where they originally started. And we think that it's a great place to -- we think the waterfront is going to be such an exciting place to live, there's going to be so much to look at. There's just going to be so much going on. I mean, in any great city in this country, there's a fantastic waterfront, and the liveliness that's going to go on down there. The views are going to be amazing in this building. I mean, truly, they're going to be amazing. The sunsets, I mean, we're there at nighttime and we're taking shots and we did a lot of studies for shadowing for 35 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. the neighborhoods. We really wanted to show that. And we're pinpoint-shadowed on the neighborhood, and that's why we worked with the neighborhood for close to six months, and everything that you see up there is a product of what they wanted. And we are actually establishing a liaison committee between us and them, which is unprecedented, where we're helping them pick somebody, an intermediary, so that they're always involved with us during the process. So if something happens that they are not happy with, they're going to be able to come to us directly. And also I'm the local guy, so they know that I'm not going anywhere and I'm here until the end. I think I used to be 6'2", but now I'm a little bit shorter from all the meetings. But I think we're getting there.
Thank you. 36 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. Thank you, Madam President.
Yes. Good morning, gentlemen. I just want to know, I'm just curious, are any of the gaming sites adjacent or near this property?
To the north about 2,500 feet is going -- with the proposed Sugar House, and then to the south of us about 2,500 feet is the Planet Hollywood proposed site. But just for the record, when I went after this originally, it was not -- there was no proposals or sites. It just happened.
Well, actually, to be honest with you, it could work either way. There's people that don't want to be around the congestion and there's people that don't want to be around all the gaming, and then there's other people that really do. I mean, Atlantic City is 37 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. a perfect example of that.
Well, at least in your testimony you mention you have 177 rooms for the hotel.
How many rooms or how many condos are you anticipating?
Well, we have 1,160 cars and the need to satisfy the complex is for 860. So we have approximately 300 cars in excess of what is actually needed.
And how high is this parking garage? 38 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
As Councilman DiCicco is reminding me, that is part of the negotiation also with the community as well. They really wanted to see something in excess of just what was needed.
Absolutely, because that seems to be a critical point --
-- in any of these developments, is the traffic. All right. Thank you, Madam President.
I know that fully well, because I live on Kenilworth Street. I moved in in 1990, and at that time, there wasn't much of an issue, but soon after that, it became a real issue. So it's critical.
Thank you. Councilwoman Brown, did you want to be recognized? 39 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
I did. Thank you, Madam President. Good morning, gentlemen. Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller raised my initial question on the who, where do you see capturing citizens who will indeed occupy this development and indeed make it profitable. I'm just curious about experience. But for experience, you would not be sitting at the table. So just give us a brief background on have you engaged in this type of development elsewhere in the City, elsewhere in the country, and is this a new first type model? Knowing that the green environment issue is new and a good thing, but separate from that, have you done other developments of this type of this scale?
Honestly, I'm a first-time developer on this, but 29 years I've been a steel contractor in the City of Philadelphia. I've worked on all the major projects in the City. Fourth 40 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. generation. Just grew up in the business, grew up working for a lot of developers, doing all their things and help them get on the board and all the way back to the early '80s and all the warehouse conversions and everything. It was just an opportunity that came up and we really felt that there was a tremendous steel proponent in this. We're steel people, so we see this as a steel project for us. And it's got a view of the bridge. And back in the early days when my grandfather came over from the old country, all those guys did a little term on the bridge, you know, doing their apprenticeships and stuff. So it's kind of like a little bit of --
Yeah, it really is. And there's a lot of people that gave their lives for all that stuff that we want to really -- and Bridgman's View is a tribute to the International Iron 41 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. Workers, because it's just been something that a lot of people done a lot of good things for.
If I may, Councilwoman, we've been in practice for years as Agoos/Lovera Architects and 8 we've done very significant projects in 9 the City and other places, including the 10 Linc. I see the place a little bit 11 quieter than in those days, but I have to 12 say, I mean, that typically as a firm, we 13 don't take on a lot of the developers as 14 clients, and the reason is that it's a 15 tougher market to work in. But with Marc 16 and Ryan and -- but I have to say that 17 these three guys have been outstanding, 18 not only in terms of payments to the firm 19 for our services, which now are six 20 months and going and amounting to a 21 significant amount of dollars, but the 22 fact is also that they have a spirit, 23 they have a vision for doing something that is exceptional, and they told us that from day one, and to basically 42 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. support that. Our test, Ted's and mine, was to see who they would allow us to have on the team, because when you have quality consultants, you got to pay for that service. And when we got Arup on board and PHY -- and PHY is the mechanical consultant, MEP, mechanical/electrical/plumbing consultant for the Comcast Center -- we knew that they were not only for real, but they were also interested in following up with the level of quality that we would expect. So they've been tremendous in that sense. They're not going to flip the site over. And we're really looking forward to just not only a great experience for the firm, but also a project that is going to continue to put Philadelphia on the map, because this is going to be iconic architecture, something that -- you know when you look at Manhattan from Brooklyn and you see these great buildings, just there's your 43 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. plot. That's the kind of thing that you'll see here.
There were two other real tests with this. One is the decision to acquire the adjacent property to move the parking structure there. Putting it, as Jorge has said before, as part of the base of this building really killed it. It made the pedestrian experience very, very difficult, and it was something that the community and we were concerned about that made a significant investment to acquire that. The other is that typically a building like this, you see a lot of rectangular boxes, the very generic, they look pretty much the same. It was the decision very early on to give this a sculptural quality. What we've done is essentially created a sinuous wall that rose the profile particularly as it faces Northern Liberties. It presents a very narrow profile, which results in a very thin shadow, to the extent that any are 44 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. cast across 95. Those decisions from the beginning are not the typical developer decisions that are made, and it's something that will attribute to their approach to this project.
Just one more thing. When they first came to us, they said, We want a million 400,000 square feet of space and no less than 1 million square feet of net sellable. When we actually did our first broad-brush strokes on paper, we were concerned. Ted and I were concerned, because all we could come up with was 750,000 square feet net sellable. And we figure, you know what, if we lose it, we lose it. We're not going to do anything differently. And they actually embraced it. After we explained the whole thing, they totally embraced it, and to us, that was another test that we were kind of running to just see if they were interested in this quality of 45 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. architecture that they had spoken about.
Thank you for your testimony. My only other observation is, as a Councilperson who is not a district Councilperson, I do observe how keenly district Councilpersons are involved in these kind of often times fragile development projects getting to this stage. So to hear that considerable discussion, conversation and negotiations happened around parking, therein accommodating the citizens who are already there, been there paying their taxes and aren't going any place, I think is extremely important. Parking typically ends up being the glitch pin or the achilles heel in trying to overcome brain projects like this to bear.
We basically made the neighborhood -- we brought them into the developers' process. A lot of people say we're crazy, you're getting them included. And really from the beginning 46 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. the Councilman said, Go right to the neighborhood. You got to get the neighborhood, and that's what we did. And we stayed with the neighborhood and we held their hand, and they were very voiceful with us.
And they should be. And we reacted to them. And when we finally went to our final with them, they were very supportive and they understood that they finally have somebody -- I don't know. Maybe not. But I feel like they finally have somebody that's really listening to them, and we're trying to do what they need done.
And thus it's possible, when the developers work with the district Councilperson, who work with the community at the door, not when you're halfway down the track, but at the door, you end up with where you are today. 47 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam President. I'll be brief. First of all, Councilman DiCicco I think has done again a tremendous job in taking a lot of heat and bringing the community in and actually -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Heat is good for you.
Heat is good for you. All these projects, whether it's casino projects or whether it's development projects, they're all controversial. Everybody is afraid of the future, everybody is afraid of 48 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. change. And it would have been easy for him to put his arms across his chest and say, Not in my backyard, and been a demigod for the residents and have less political opposition and complaints from some of his political opponents. So I know all the hard work actually created and helped mold what we're looking at now. From what we're looking at now, I just want to compliment you. The thing that jumps out at me is that this is an exclusive residence, it's retail, but what you've done in the design makes it almost a public space. It's an open public space in many ways where people feel they're not -- it's not a gated community. It's not keeping them from the river. It's not keeping them from traversing and having pedestrian experience and being on the rooftop in the green space. I'm telling you, when I see it, it looks like some flyovers of Miami or some of the flyovers of New York 49 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. and Chicago. And I've consistently said that great cities need tall buildings, and if you can do a tall building and make it as inviting to the public as that, I think you've hit a home run.
-- Councilman Kenney, Councilman DiCicco was great in the fact also that he did not -- he actually told us we have to go to the community. I mean, if they give the support and all that, then I would be willing to do what I have to do, and for that, we really commend him. The other thing also that we really had not spoken about is the fact that we -- one of the first things we did was actually grab a hold of the master plan or the neighbor's plan that Northern Liberties had already done. This is not the vision on Delaware Avenue, but that 50 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. plan talked about no gated communities, ease of access to the waterfront, allow the views to the waterfront for the community. There's all of these different items that one of the first things we did was basically an analysis of that, and out of that rose what you see before you.
And their desire for green space. That was another key component.
Thank you very much. Are there any other questions or comments from members of the Committee? (No response.)
Seeing none, gentlemen, thank you very much. The proposal looks absolutely magnificent and I certainly want to wish you well.
Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Is anyone else going for a suspension of the rules? 52 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
Is that good or bad? May I please have a suspension of the rules?
We got the message. Thank you. Thank you all very much.
I would ask Mr. McPherson to please now read Bill No. 060342. And before he does so, I would like to acknowledge the presence of Councilman O'Neill and Councilwoman Brown. Mr. McPherson. MR. McPHERSON: An ordinance to amend the Philadelphia Zoning Maps by changing the zoning designations of certain areas of land located within an 53 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. area bounded by Delaware Avenue, Columbia Street, Delaware River and Shackamaxon Street.
Yes. Good morning, Madam President and members of the Rules Committee. My name is William Kramer. I am the Senior Zoning Planner in the Development Planning Division of the City Planning Commission. I am here today to testify on Bill No. 060342, which was introduced by Councilmember DiCicco May 4, 2006. This bill will rezone property in an area bounded by Delaware Avenue, Columbia Street, the Delaware River and Shackamaxon Street from a current zoning designation of G-2 General Industrial to a designation of C-3 Commercial. The property in question is known as Piers 49 and 50. The purpose of the change is to allow for the development of the property in a residential capacity. 54 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. The Planning Commission is scheduled to consider Bill 060342 at its next scheduled meeting June 15, 2006. I would be happy to answer any questions of the Committee.
Thank you very much. Mr. Kramer, can you tell us what type of residential use is proposed?
We just received the breakdown of the proposal yesterday morning. This does call for two different -- two towers, two residential towers, providing condominium use.
And did I hear you say they will be for condominiums?
Yes, ma'am, you did. And the condominium size is varying from 790 square feet to 1,950 square 55 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. feet, and all would feature balconies. I'm looking for the exact number of units. It has been designed so it would be in two phases. The first phase would have an easternmost 36-story tower with an attached garage that would have 271 units with 428 enclosed parking spaces.
Two hundred seventy one units with 428 enclosed parking spaces. At first there will be an additional 116 parking spaces available, surface parking, that will be abandoned when they do the Phase 2 construction. The Phase 2 construction adds an additional 36-story tower with an additional 246 units and an additional 298 parking spaces in a garage. So the total parking --
Do we have any indication as to what the cost of the condominiums will be? 56 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
I do not have that within the information I've been given. Their attorney is here and may be able to answer.
I actually do not have their name. Their attorney was represented by Mr. Primavera. He should be able to --
Please identify yourself for the record and perhaps you could answer some of the questions.
Carl Primavera. I'm here representing the developer. With me is Sharon Suleta, my colleague. Bruce Schmidt --
I'm sorry. You turned your head. 57 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
It's Dario Patrungalo is the representative. They have created a family partnership. Probably many of you know them from their core business, which is A&P Construction. They do work for the City, for PennDot. They've been involved in the construction business for many years. And Dario is here today representing that development partnership. We also have Bruce Schmidt from BLT Architects who has plans and materials that, if you would like, we can set up similar to the first presentation to give you a better idea of what the project hopefully will look like.
Just by way of 58 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. additional background to what Mr. Kramer said, the property is zoned industrial. There's a warehouse operation there. That's been a tenant. The property is owned by Mr. Philip O'Godden. He's been a long-term owner of industrial properties on Delaware Avenue. As you'll see once our rendering is there, it's an interesting statement about Philadelphia that this may be considered modest compared to what you just saw. A few years ago something like what you're about to see would have been considered dramatic, but it's now considered to be what we expect, I guess, in terms of the new development. This site is on the waterfront. It is impacted by the so-called moratorium, and we'll get into that in a little bit, because we do need the riverbed lease from the State. So we are talking to the State on those issues. We have met with the Fishtown Civic. We're going to meet with them 59 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. again. Interestingly enough, because we're on the river side, there's no 4 adjoining community next to this. So obviously that makes it easy for us. We don't have to worry about some of the things that would happen if you're right up against existing homes. And also we're on the east side of 95 and most of the residential development is on the west side of 95. So people are pretty pleased to think that instead of the industrial site which is currently there representing the G-2, we would now see a residential development.
What are the proposed costs and completion date if this is approved?
Well, at this point, as Mr. Kramer mentioned, the thought is that they would build the first tower, the one closest to the river, because ultimately the market is going to probably have to digest all these new projects. Unless there's 60 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. especially broad interest, we would envision doing the first tower. We envision about $150 million per tower when you add up the rising cost of materials. I know there's new union contracts in place, energy costs. So most of these things reflect an attitude that there will be price escalation in the construction. The cost factor, obviously the penthouse units are always going to be the most expensive, but we're hoping to be in the 450 to 500,000 a unit range, which is expensive, but given other product, we think that we will be competitive. The fact that we have easy access from Delaware Avenue, 95, we think that will be attractive to people. And, again, as the earlier presenters said, the views from the waterfront are spectacular.
Won't the Governor's moratorium on the riverfront development determine when a 61 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. project may proceed?
Yes. We thought we were well on the way to having that concluded by the summer recess in Harrisburg, but then -- I know the Governor says not to call it a moratorium, but suspension of approvals, whatever the term is, we have been impacted. We have spoken to GSA. We have spoken to the Governor's office. They say that there are two issues driving the process. One is, they are trying to come up with a new formulation on how to value the riverbed leases. Before it was nominal consideration given the fact that the leases are not something that anybody other than the adjoining property owner could use, but they're reevaluating appraisals. The other thing is, they want to make sure that there's waterfront access for the public, which we will provide as well, and our Planning 62 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. Commission has also been asking for that. So they're the two issues. It's pretty apparent that the process -- we'll work over the summer and then hopefully we'll have it resolved when they come back in the fall. But that process runs independent of the zoning process, so we thought if we could get the zoning done and then just basically have it ready to go for the riverbed lease, then once that's done, we'd be ready to start. But you're right, Council President Verna, without the riverbed lease, we can't get started. We can't get financing.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kelly.
Yes. Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Primavera, I just want to know something. On the left of this, 63 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. there's a park. Is that Penn Treaty Park?
On this side, what is this vacant land? Is there any --
That's an interesting question. I think that's the proposed, is that called, Sugar House site? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That's correct. It's adjacent to the Sugar House.
So we're immediately to the north of that site. So obviously nobody has a crystal ball. We may end up having a casino there. We may not. Interestingly --
I don't know. 64 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. We don't have any relationship to them. We're not part of any casino team or anything like that. It will be interesting to see. And similar to the earlier presentation, some people think that gaming will help the residential market because people want to be close to it. Other people think it may not. But we've decided we're kind of gaming neutral. We don't do gaming.
I just had a question about parking. How many parking spaces are you contemplating?
Well, the total is going to be for both 908 garage spaces, but let me just go through the --
We're talking about Phase 1, which is 271 units and 428 parking spaces, and that's the one that we think the market would immediately embrace. And then if we go to Phase 2, that's another 246 units and another 298 65 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. garage spaces. So if the whole thing gets built to that maximum, it would be 517 units and 726 parking spaces. So the extra spaces would be in surface parking if we need it. So we have plenty of parking for the site. We think that that's going to be obviously one of the attractive things about it, people will be able to park and have easy access to their cars. We don't have any other traffic that's immediately impacting us. Casino traffic, we've taken the position that I'm sure that the casinos are going to have to figure out their own traffic and their own parking.
The one thing I'm concerned about, though, is 512 units and the cost of these units are probably, what, 400, 500?
With the type of person that's going to be 66 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. purchasing these condos, I would think they would have more than one car, and that's of a concern. In other words, if a lot of these people have two and three cars, it could be a problem.
We have the ability to add another level of garage parking if we wanted to. It's being built to handle that, because that's a good point, but, quite frankly, we think that we have -- I mean, we exceed a lot of the ratios that people are looking at now. And also we hope at some point there will be some public transportation along Delaware Avenue, which would be great, whether it's a tram or bus. But you're right, we have to make sure that we have enough parking on site so that people, whether they have one car or two, will be able to park on site, because it's not a site where you would go off site to park and then come back.
Then you 67 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. could expand the parking, then?
Yes. So it's being designed to accommodate another deck if we need it.
You're welcome. Are there any other questions from members of the Committee? The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam President. I was out of the room for a few minutes. Is that a marina that I see associated with it or no?
Well, it's artistic license. We would like to have a small marina. That would all be subject to State approval, because it doesn't exist. It would not be a commercial marina, because we don't have 68 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. the space for it, but what we said is, it would be no frills and we would have a space where both the public and people who live in the condominium would be able to tie it up. But we don't have room for a boat repair or any type of amenity. So it's bare bones, but we still think it would be nice to have.
Similar to what you have at Pier 9 and 11 near La Veranda in the back there, kind of just residential use or rental?
That's not 9 and 11. That's 5 and -- 3 and 5. I'm sorry. Is that an Army Corps issue? Is there approval there, too?
We believe that we are okay with the Army Corps in terms of the existing pier, because it was approved previously. Anything we do with the marina is both Army Corps and the 69 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. State. So we show it because that's where we want to have it, but we have to get through those approvals.
We think it would be nice. We actually would like to have a restaurant in Building 1 like La Veranda, because C-3 allows us --
No. It would be at the -- well, that's not a bad idea, but it would be at the water's edge, and then people would be able to arrive, tie up.
I would love to have seen the Comcast building have something like that, some kind of observation deck or restaurant on top, similar to the Rainbow Room in New York. 70 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
And also I think a lot of the profit in these buildings is in the penthouse units, so they kind of use that to leverage a lot of the other -- you hate to say $400,000 is a moderately priced unit.
Well, these days. And people from New York and other places think it's cheap.
That's where we think a lot of these people will be coming from. I think that we're still drawing people from outside the area who want to be in Philadelphia, they want to be in a new building, they want to have waterfront views.
That's another important issue when it comes to this development, because, again, trying to grow the City, we're not going to -- a 71 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. lot of people who live in the City are not going to be buying these. They're going to be people who are new residents. And the commute from New York, from Manhattan, to Philadelphia is nothing anymore. You can see what's happened up in Bucks County. I think that's just starting to come down more and more, which I think is a wonderful opportunity to gain new residents with some spending power.
I think it's funny to say, but we're almost becoming a bedroom community for New York.
Are there any other questions or comments from members of the Committee? (No response.) 72 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
Thank you. We would ask to suspend the rules, if you would so incline to do that. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Madam President, if I may. On the suspension, I will ask for the suspension of rules, but for the record, the Fishtown Neighborhood Association will have a full Board meeting on the 14th of this month, and not anticipating any objection to this, but should there be, then I will hold up on second and final reading, but absent any objection from the community, then I will call it up on the 15th.
That's fine with us, and we also want to thank Councilman DiCicco. We went to Fishtown. The zoning committee heard the presentation. There were no objections, but apparently, and perhaps wisely, they now have a process where if it's what 73 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. they call community-wide development, they want to bring it to their Board. And we tried to get them to meet earlier, but they couldn't allow for that. So the timing works for us and we're happy to work with that time frame.
Councilman DiCicco, I'm just rather curious. How far is this development from the previous proposed development that we heard earlier? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Two blocks maybe.
That previous development was in between that. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: The previous development is a little south of it, a couple blocks. And just for the record, when they mentioned the Brownstone property, that is -- remember the 8th Floor? 74 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
That's what we were talking about, the 8th Floor. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I meant to mention it earlier. When they talk about the Brownstone project, it's the building, the old warehouse, where the 8th Floor, the club, used to be located. That's the site, which is right about in here. So the previous development will be generally in this area and the Brownstone piece would run somewhere in here. It's about 1,100 units. We already did the legislation on that several months ago. About 1,100 units all together, with mid-rise and townhouse development.
Thank you. Do we have anyone that would like to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Seeing no one, I would ask Mr. McPherson 75 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. to please read the title of Bill No. 3 060344. MR. McPHERSON: An ordinance to amend the Philadelphia Zoning Maps by changing the zoning designations of certain areas of land located within an area bounded by Delaware Avenue, Penn Street, Ellen Street, the Delaware River and Spring Garden Street.
Good morning, Madam President and members of the Rules Committee. My name is William Kramer. I am the Senior Zoning Planner in the Development Planning Division of the City Planning Commission. I am here today to testify on Bill No. 060344, which was introduced by Councilmember DiCicco May 4th of 2006. This bill will rezone a portion of an area bounded by Delaware Avenue, Penn Street, Ellen Street extended, the Delaware River and Spring Garden Street 76 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. extended. This bill will rezone a portion of this block from its current designation of C-3 Commercial to a designation of G-2 General Industrial. This bill reverses the provision of Bill 7 No. 040937, which was signed into law January 25, 2005. The City Planning Commission is scheduled to consider Bill No. 060344 at its next scheduled meeting June 15, 2006. I would be happy to answer any questions of the Committee.
Thank you. Mr. Kramer, your testimony is that this bill will rezone a portion of the block from its current designation of C-3 Commercial to a designation of G-2 General Industrial. However, looking at the maps attached to the bill, it appears that the zoning change is from a designation of G-2 to C-3. Can you tell us which is correct? Is there a development proposal for this property, 77 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. and, if so, can you elaborate? Do you have a copy of the pink bill?
I do not have a copy of the pink bill. I have a copy of the original bill that was given to us by the Clerk's Office after introduction. This was, as I said in my testimony, the reversing of a prior bill. So what was done was the switching of the titles on the bill. I don't know if there was a subsequent error or not, but the bill I was given indicates that it does shift this from C-3 Commercial to G-2 General Industrial. And originally back in 2005, this was doing the reverse, changing it from G-2 to C-3. So there is no 19 development proposal that I am aware of at this point in time. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Madam President, if I may.
Yes. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: The site that we're speaking to is the site of the 78 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. much-touted Trump Tower. Unlike the two previous developers who were here this morning, but for one very short community meeting, there have been no follow-up meetings with the Northern Liberties Neighborhood Association. There have been a number of announcements and preliminary ribbon cuttings, or whatever you want to refer to them as, about this tower, but what I'm asking is that we go back to G-2 Industrial. That would prohibit any development of a residential tower or any type of residential development on that site, and this is a way of ensuring that the developer is then required to go back to the community and work through my office and the community. So that's really why I'm asking for this to go opposite of what we do with the other two bills, going from G-2 to C-3 or 5. We're asking that this go back to industrial use.
There's a problem with the map in the 79 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. pink bill. Mr. Kramer, we have a copy of the pink bill. Perhaps you should -- MR. McPHERSON: I gave it to him.
I've seen it. The way this is written is actually incorrect and the map should actually be inverted. Map A should be Map B and vice versa. Map B should be Map A. I believe we can draft this as an amendment to this bill 15 to make it do what it wants to do. Currently, the proposed Map B in the bill as printed in the pink copy is what exists. It's currently zoned C-3 Commercial today. So we do have to amend the bill, I would imagine.
Councilman DiCicco -- 80 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: It's just the way it was printed. It was printed in reverse order.
But one of the things that concerns me is, we can fix this here by amendment, according to the Planning Commission. Under the current circumstances without the change, does the developer have the ability to go in and get a permit? The way it is right now, would they have the ability to go get a permit? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: When you say "the way it is" --
The way it is before our change. Not the way it is in the mistaken bill, not the mistakes in the bill. The current zoning of the parcel, would it allow them -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yes.
It would allow them to get a permit? One of the things that I would suggest, even though we're going to amend this bill and fix 81 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. it, is that L&I be put on very clear notice, because we just had this situation the other day where a guy got approval from the Zoning Board and had his property condemned two weeks later, because nobody talks to each other. I would be concerned that some developer would go in there, this or some other, try to get a permit across the desk, we have never told them that we fixed it or changed it and now we're stuck in some mess, especially when the record is going to be a little confusing as to which map is which. I'm just concerned about communication with L&I. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I understand.
I will be in touch with the Zoning Unit at L&I when I get back to my office. I will let them know.
Yes, ma'am. I'll 82 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. have to draft it, but, yes, we can amend the maps correctly. I can have them to you this afternoon. I don't have them physically here, unless -- Mr. Abernathy is going to make his copies --
Are there any other questions or comments from members of the Committee on this bill? (No response.)
Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
The next bill to be considered, it would have been Bill No. 060312. However, that is being held at the request of the sponsor. Also, Councilman DiCicco, it is my understanding that Bill No. 060442 is also being held at your request. 83 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yes.
I would, therefore, ask Mr. McPherson to please read the title of Bill No. 060444. MR. McPHERSON: An ordinance to amend the Philadelphia Zoning Maps by changing the zoning designations of certain areas of land located within an area bounded by the Montgomery County Line, Pine Road, Bloomfield Avenue, Verree Road and Red Lion Road.
Good morning, Madam President and members of the Rules Committee. My name is William Kramer. I am the Senior Zoning Planner in the Development Planning Division of the City Planning Commission. I am here today to testify on Bill No. 060444, which was introduced by Councilmember O'Neill May 18, 2006. This bill is a zoning remapping 84 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. bill for the Bustleton area of the City. It covers approximately 450 acres of land bounded by the Montgomery County Line, Pine Road, Bloomfield Avenue, Verree Road and Red Lion Road. The area is predominantly a residentially zoned area with a mix of zoning designations from R-1 to R-4 throughout. There is an industrial park located along Red Lion Road that will retain its G-2 zoning designation and a commercial property located at Red Lion and Verree that will retain its C-2 Commercial designation. This bill will rezone a majority of the residential properties to a designation of R-1 or R-2 in order to restrict their ability to be subdivided as a matter of right. This bill is scheduled to be considered at the Planning Commission's next meeting of June 15, 2006. I would be happy to answer any questions of the Committee.
Thank 85 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. you. Mr. Kramer, do you know how many existing property owners will be affected by these changes?
I do not have an exact total, but it would number several thousand. I would imagine we're talking in the area of 2,000 to 3,000 homeowners in this entire area. This is a very large area. As I said, 450 acres. It covers quite a number of homeowners.
I see that Councilman O'Neill had put his light on.
Okay. Are there any proposed development plans that would be adversely affected by these changes?
The Chair recognizes Councilman O'Neill. 86 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
Mr. Kramer, is it fair to say that this is an upgrade of the zoning of the area from a residential perspective? We're not downgrading anything to allow more development. We're actually restricting future development, where people would need a variance rather than as a matter of right if they tear a house down and put two or more up on the same lot.
And in this particular area, while it's very large, and the three maps required indicate that, a lot of these homes in this remapping as opposed to some of the other that we've done already are existing developments where there really isn't tear-down opportunities. In terms of a percentage of the 450 acres, the tear-down opportunities are much less than in previous remappings, because we had so many developments built in the '50s, '60s, '70s that conformed to the 87 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. zoning and there's really not tear-down opportunity to put more than one on the map.
Thank you. Any other questions or comments by members of the Committee? (No response.)
Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Thank you. I would ask Mr. McPherson to please read the title of the next bill, Bill No. 060445. MR. McPHERSON: An ordinance to 88 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. amend the Institutional Development District Master Plan of Temple University by allowing for the construction of a new building to be used for the Fox School of Business and Management.
Good morning, Madam President and members of the Rules Committee. My name is William Kramer. I'm the Senior Zoning Planner in the Development Planning Division of the City Planning Commission. I am here today to testify on Bill No. 060445, which was introduced by Councilmember Clarke May 18, 2006. This bill will permit an amendment of the Institutional Development District Master Plan for Temple University. The amendment is for the erection of a seven-story, 220,415 square foot structure to be used as the home for the new Fox School of Business and Management, which currently occupies Speakman Hall directly adjacent to the site. This new complex will house 89 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. lecture halls, general use classrooms, student and administrative offices, student lounges and the Fox School academic departments. The City Planning Commission at its meeting of March 16, 2006 reviewed and approved the proposed changes to the Master Plan of Temple University. Accordingly, the Planning Commission recommends that Bill No. 060445 be approved. I would be happy to answer any questions of the Committee.
Thank you, Mr. Kramer. Currently, the business school occupies Speakman Hall, which is adjacent, I understand, to this site. Are the numbers of people who will be using the new site be approximately the same number as occupy the current site of the business school? If more will occupy the new property, will parking for the area be sufficient? 90 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
I believe that the number of students to be using these halls will be pretty much the same. The architect, Mary Winston, is here that designed all this and may be able to better indicate that. I believe that Temple would like us to believe that there will continue to be more students on campus, and that's a constant growth issue. I don't know that this particular project is going to generate that growth, and they already do exceed the amount of parking required on campus. The numbers currently provide 2,902 parking spaces, and by Code requirements are required to have 1,104 spaces. So obviously they well exceed the amount of required spaces in the district, more than double what's required.
Which I would assume would indicate they're doubling the amount of parking.
Madam 91 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. President, I don't think that there's a person that lives in that community that believes that Temple has adequate parking spaces on the facility for their students, but that's not something that we can resolve today.
Okay. While you're there, was there any indication as to what will become of Speakman Hall? Do you know?
That's fine. Please introduce yourself and proceed with your testimony.
My name is Mary Winston. I'm Director of Special Projects, Facilities Management, Temple University. I am the Project Architect for this project working in conjunction with the designer. Speakman Hall will be occupied as the Fox Business School and will 92 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. attach to the new Alter Hall, which is the addition. There will not be an increase in student population.
This is essentially a replacement of class space. We've recently demolished a building called Curtis Hall. So we are replacing some facilities that were lost across campus.
Although the map is difficult to read, it does indicate provisions for future surface parking and for a future -- everything is future -- parking garage. Any indication as to how many additional parking spaces are to be provided and exactly when they would be available?
The map that you're looking at encompasses two projects. It encompasses the Tyler School of Art, which is relocating existing parking and creating future 93 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. parking in an adjacent lot off of 12th and Norris Streets, if that's the area that you're referring to.
Yes, it is. All right. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Madam President. Good morning. What's the time line on the construction of the facility?
We anticipate to start construction, if we receive all of the approvals, by this fall, with occupancy for September of 2008.
It's a State-funded project, so we have a construction manager on the project, which is Driscoll.
In terms of participation, who do you have monitoring that? 94 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
Yes. We will have more than 33 percent participation. We are just beginning the bid process on this project.
Thirty-three percent across the board? Can you break it down?
If I could respond. For the record, Tabb Bishop, Deputy Chief of Staff, Executive Office of the President for Temple University. The University for all of its 95 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. projects in this specific area of minority participation, we hired GPUAC, Greater Philadelphia Urban Affairs Coalition, and they will work with us in terms of monitoring that and making sure that we reach our goals. Thirty-three percent actually is something that the University has some successes in reaching on a consistent basis and we don't see that this would be any deviation from that path.
Actually, there have been. Yes, we've exceeded that. There's an ambulatory care facility, which is actually a Temple University Hospital project, but there was a lot of the Temple University facilities staff that were managing that process, and they reached, I think it was, 40 percent, if my memory is right.
Forty-two percent. Do you have an idea what the breakdown was, MBE, WBE, DBE?
In terms of your goals, do you identify your goals by category or you just say generally the participation goal is 33 percent, or do you break it down MBE, WBE, DBE?
This is Mary Winston again. We target based on the trades and we target based on MBE, WBE and DBE with our aspirations on what we have historically seen on projects and what we can anticipate to see.
That doesn't make me feel comfortable. If you want to talk about what you historically see as it relates to participation in the 97 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. City of Philadelphia, that doesn't make me feel comfortable at all.
No. I'm sorry. Not with the City of Philadelphia. What we, Temple, have historically seen on projects. Typically we've done better than 33 percent on most of the projects that we've worked on.
Is there the possibility that we can get a little more aggressive? In a project in proximity to Temple University Avenue north, we set a goal of 50 percent, and while we didn't get there, we got over 40 percent, which was unprecedented in that type of project. I'm just a little concerned, if you continue to have a 33 percent threshold, the likelihood that you'll go far beyond that is improbable. So I'm wondering at some point in time -- I understand the history of the developments that have taken place on the campus, but if we don't raise that threshold, the likelihood that we'll 98 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. continue to get higher numbers is improbable. So I was wondering if we can start looking at possibly increasing the ante.
Yes. Councilman, I should say that we would be honored with the opportunity to work with your office on that particular area. It's something that there's a high sensitivity on the University side of equation. We realize that we have to do more. So we are proud that we've been able to get over 40 percent on the past several projects, but we realize that the work doesn't stop there. One of the reasons why we use that 33 percent, because we feel that that's a number we can as close to guarantee as possible, but our goal is always to get beyond that. So it's just --
But it's the last two you got 40 percent. Then you probably should do 40 percent, right, 99 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. because that's the most recent history?
Exactly right. And we feel like we can more than likely continue that. We're going to be faced with a situation with a lot of the other developments taking place across the City, so there's always going to be a push to try to bump that number up. But we're very committed to that, Councilman. In fact, even in that regard, we have created an Office of Multi-Cultural Affairs, which there's a component of that which deals with the vendors and contracting aspects of what the University does. So it's related to construction, but it also goes beyond the area of construction at the University as well. So there's a commitment there from the administration.
Will there be any additional long-term jobs as a result of the new facility?
And has 100 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. there been a plan in place to possibly utilize the local community for some of those job opportunities?
Yes. We've been working a lot with -- two things we've done also -- this is another recent initiative with the University. There's the Office of Community Outreach in hiring, which is out of our Human Resources Department. One of the things we're trying to do is to make sure there's an increase in the number of people who are able to apply for jobs when they become available, and the idea being -- the focus is really, for us, the immediate neighborhood. So this is not just talking about other parts other than the area surrounding the main campus or the Health Sciences Center. So we have a major effort underway to try to make sure we increase the numbers of people who are employed from those communities.
Thank you. One last question. Well, actually, I'll 101 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. ask it on the second part of your request.
Any other questions or comments from members of the Committee? (No response.)
Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Seeing no one, I would ask Mr. McPherson to please read the title of -- we didn't get a request for a suspension.
Yes. I'd like to respectfully request suspension of the rules.
Thank you. I would ask Mr. McPherson to please read the title of Bill No. 060446. MR. McPHERSON: An ordinance to amend the Institutional Development District Master Plan of Temple University by allowing for the construction of a new 102 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. building to be used for the Tyler School of Art.
Good afternoon, Madam President and members of the Rules Committee. My name is William Kramer. I'm the Senior Zoning Planner in the Development Planning Division of the City Planning Commission. I am here today to testify on Bill No. 060446, which was introduced by Councilmember Clarke May 18, 2006. This bill will permit an amendment of the Institutional Development District Master Plan for Temple University. The amendment is for the erection of a two-story, 255,000 square feet structure for use as the Tyler School of Art, which will be linked to the existing Presser Hall. This new complex will house all of the academic programs presently located at the Tyler campus in Elkins Park, Pennsylvania. These programs include ceramics, fiber/fabric design, foundation, glass, 103 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. graphic and interactive designs, metal/jewelry, painting and drawing, photography, printmaking, publications, sculpture and exhibitions. The Tyler School of Art has been located at the Elkins Park campus for approximately 60 years. This somewhat secluded suburban location has left the campus isolated from the activity of the main campus and this move will make the school a more active and visible member of the University while additionally giving the students access to a wider range of activities and resources. The City Planning Commission at its meeting of April 20, 2006 reviewed and approved the proposed changes to the Master Plan of Temple University. Accordingly, the Planning Commission recommends that Bill No. 060446 be approved. I would be happy to answer any questions of the Committee.
Thank 104 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. you, Mr. Kramer. Your testimony is that the new facility will allow for the relocation of the Tyler School of Art from its present location in Elkins Park to Temple's main campus. Can you tell us how many students and staff will be relocated, and is there sufficient parking in the area to accommodate, and, if not, what are the plans for providing parking?
I do not know how many students will be relocated to the campus. I would let Mr. Bishop answer that in a second. As regarding parking, the proposal does require an additional 65 parking spaces for the district, which raises the required parking by Code from 1,107 to 1,172 parking spaces. While this proposal doesn't call for any additional parking that I'm aware of for this particular aspect of the amended Master Plan, it does exceed the Code requirements for parking, except I would 105 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. add that, as Councilman Clarke would indicate, that even though it meets the Code-required parking, which is the basis for our decisions, there may certainly be a parking need at the University level. It's one of the, shall we say, shortcomings of the district that only requires a parking space for every 3,000 or 4,000 square feet of building under the Code, which is not to say that that's going to provide adequate parking, and it's usually a market-driven number. That's because the universities and the institutions have much more of a need for parking than is required under the Code. I don't have the means at this time to change that, and even if I did, I'm not certain that it would require the institutions that currently exist to then subsequently meet it, owing to non-conforming provisions within the Code. But Mr. Bishop was going to answer with the students. 106 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
Thank you very much. There are about 800 students that we expect would come down from the Elkins Park campus and about 100 to 120 staff members, and that will include faculty, teachers and staff. For us, the parking issue is a challenge even before the Tyler School was coming down. I think we are -- it was a subject we've been wrestling a lot with. And I've been at the University now for about three and a half years and there's not been a week that's passed since I've been there that we've not sat down and tried to figure out ways of providing more parking. We're a bit landlocked in terms of trying to find the right opportunity to do so, but we're really wrestling with this trying to find the best way to do 107 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. so. In fact, what we tried to do is to sensitize some students so that they're not -- they're being very thoughtful in terms of parking in the neighborhoods. We figure that's one of the ways that we can kind of help to provide more parking spaces directly. We can kind of work to sensitive the students so that they're being more thoughtful in terms of where they park in the neighborhoods.
Thank you, Madam President. The problem with the parking has less to do with the available spaces on the campus, because there are substantial number of parking lots and garages on the campus. The problem is with the students and their unwillingness to use the parking on the campus because they have to pay for it. So what they do is drive into the community and find free parking spaces in the community. 108 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. Normally the response to that would be permit parking, but the community feels that it's been there longer than Temple University and they shouldn't have to pay for permit parking to park in their own community. So that's the problem that we have. So to add additional parking spaces on the campus is just really not an answer, because people are not going to park in the current parking spaces. So we just have to figure out a way to convince people that they need to get permit parking so we can adequately enforce those measures. That's our biggest issue down there.
I believe it's 109 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. around $80 a month.
I'm not sure it's that much. My daughter goes to Temple, and I believe -- she's in her fourth year, but I know in the beginning I used to give her the money to park and it was 40 bucks. It was $40. So I don't think it's gone up to 80 yet. It could have been an increase, but I don't think it's 80.
Thank you for correcting me, Councilwoman. I think the number I was pulling for I think was probably for the employees. So I thank you for that.
All right. And I agree with Councilman Clarke. On my way home many days, I drive through Temple's campus up 13th Street or either up Broad. I agree that it's probably -- I think Temple has lots of parking lots and available opportunities to park, but I think the young people don't want to pay, and 110 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. that's when they go out into the neighborhoods. And I read most of what you send out as a parent and I think you do encourage the young people to park in the facilities and get these passes or whatever. And I guess you would be landlocked. So it's kind of hard to provide additional parking. You have a lot of parking, unless you build garages, because right now you're sort of at the open lots. But sometimes you just have to be a little bit creative and work the situations out. But I do know that the students -- because my daughter was actually parking somewhere closer to Susquehanna Avenue at one point, and I said, no, I didn't really want her parking up that far. I wanted her to go back down towards the campus. But I just want to commend -- the campus has grown so, and not so much expansion, because I go up 13th Street most of the time, and even just going up 111 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. 13th Street, it's just -- I think it's 13th Street. It's just changed a lot, and I think it's a good change. I wanted to comment and say that. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam President. Has the University done an analysis of the percentage of commuting students versus those who live on campus?
There's something that I've seen done a few years back, Councilman, when they tried to get a number on that. It's a little bit of a difficult issue to nail down specifically, because sometimes the students will use different modes of transportation to get to campus. Sometimes they'll drive, sometimes -- 112 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
I'm talking about people living in dormitories versus those who are not registered in dorms.
The numbers that have come out of that have shown pretty consistently that there are fewer students who are living in the buildings and driving at the same time.
Could you give me like a ballpark percentage of what your typical commuter percentage is versus the people who live on campus? And I don't mean off-campus apartments, because it's really hard to determine those numbers. It's just who is registered in your dorms as a percentage of your student body versus who has to come from somewhere else, those who could walk to school and those who can't walk to school. Where I'm headed is, have you guys sat with SEPTA at all as far as attempting even if it comes to be part of the amenity of being a Temple student is 113 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. a transpass? Would it be worth it for the University to try to even pay for that stuff as a pilot project as opposed to the contention in the neighborhood as opposed to trying to find parking spots and figure that out? And what are the regulations for residential students with cars? Because I know, for example, in some universities freshmen are not permitted to have a vehicle on campus if they live there. Now, again, you don't want to constrict the attraction of the University to a freshman who has a car, but then again, you have to live within the reality of being in an urban campus. I'd be just curious of whether SEPTA, if you guys could explore that, whether SEPTA would be amenable considering its need to improve its ridership, considering students in general not minding to use public transportation. I know I've talked to a number of students at Penn. They would love to 114 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. use public transportation if SEPTA provided 24-hour consistency in getting on and off the campus. For example, from Old City to Penn, after a certain time the bus stops running and they need to take cabs or take a car. So I would think that the Temple students, as a general rule, would not mind using the subway or bus system if in fact you gave them some incentive to use it for free or an extremely reduced rate. I just think that since that Broad Street Line is right through the middle of your campus, it would seem to be a lost opportunity not exploring some innovative way to as part of your tuition -- I mean, in the end, you could pass it on. As part of an incoming freshman commuter, you get a transpass for the year or for at least the school year. I think SEPTA would perhaps jump at the opportunity to increase its ridership in that way.
Councilman, to 115 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. your point, I know that there have been some conversations probably going back about two or three years ago just to see if there might be some kind of additional discount that students could receive. Of course, it was coming at a time when SEPTA was still wrestling with its own budgetary issues, so they were saying that they didn't think they could reduce that cost any.
See, I don't think in the end SEPTA would be the one paying for it. I think in the end the University would be the one paying for it, and if you hide it in the tuition payment, who cares, as long as you can pass it on. You pass on stuff to everybody. If they think they're getting it for free, they're more likely to use it, especially if they could use it not only getting to school but going from campus to someplace to hang out, South Street, Manayunk, Old City, whatever. I think that we don't in many 116 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. ways as a City plan transportation around student bodies on our major urban campuses, because what I hear from them is that they would love to get on a bus and go somewhere and have fun, but also get back on that bus at midnight, 1 o'clock in the morning and have a consistent route, which SEPTA can't provide for them because the ridership is not -- it's almost a chicken and egg. They cut the bus route down a certain time because there's no ridership, but no 14 ridership because there's no bus. So I think certainly considering the Broad Street subway's proximity to everything on your campus, that I would be giving away free passes to get them out of their cars.
Councilman, I should add to that, there have been -- I'll use an example. We run a shuttle service, which doesn't cost students any money. All they do is show their ID, and it takes them down to Center City. I 117 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. guess there are about two stops in Center City that it makes and then it returns back to the main campus. In fact, it even goes out to our campuses out in Montgomery County as well. That's one of the ways that we've tried to address some of that, but, of course, I won't be able to satisfy everybody at all times. But that service is available for most of days of the week. The one challenge there for us, unfortunately, is that during the summer months because the need for that shuttle service is not as high, so we don't continue that during the summer months, even though we're finding out around Temple's campus because you have so many private developments that are up now, you have a lot more students who are staying beyond the normal fall and spring semester schedules. They stay over the summer months as well to try to find --
I don't even know what a transpass costs for a 118 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. year, but it can't be that astronomical a number. And rather than run your own fleet and have your own insurance issues and your own boys to have to drive the buses, you have one of the better transportation systems in the country, even though it's expensive, right in your doorstep. So I would encourage you to try to find out something that would get a free transpass in their hand. Maybe they'll use public transportation more. Thank you.
Thank you. Any other questions or comments from members of the Committee? (No response.)
Do we have anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, Mr. Bishop, do you have a request on this?
Yes, Council 119 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. President. We'd like to respectfully request suspension of the rules for this bill.
Thank you all very much. This will conclude the public hearing of the Committee on Rules. We will now go into our public session, and the Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke regarding Bill No. 060290.
Thank you, Madam President. Madam President, I move that Bill No. 060290 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation and a request for suspension of the rules as to allow reading at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 120 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. 060290 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation; further, a recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All in favor will please say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and the motion carries. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller regarding Bill No. 17 060342.
Thank you, Madam President. I move that Bill 20 No. 060342 be voted out of this Committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session. (Duly seconded.) 121 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC.
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 4 060342 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation; further, that a recommendation be made that the rules of Council be suspended. All in favor will please indicate by saying aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and the motion carries. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney regarding Bill No. 060344.
Thank you, Madam President. I move that the amendment offered to Bill No. 060344 be approved, and that amendment is replacing Maps A and Maps B on the attachment. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that the 122 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. amendment be approved. All in favor will please say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it. The amendment is adopted. And I would make a request that someone went and make absolutely certain that the Chief Clerk's Office receives a copy of the amendment. Again, the Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam President. I move that Bill No. 19 060344 as amended be reported out of this Committee favorably and a request made for rules suspension to allow for first reading at our next Council session. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 123 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. 060344 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation as amended; further, that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All in favor will say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and the motion carries. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke regarding Bill No. 060444.
Thank you, Madam President. I move that Bill 060444 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation and a request for rules suspension as to allow reading at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 25 060444 be reported out of Committee with 124 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. a favorable recommendation; further, that a recommendation the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All in favor will please say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and the motion carries. Again, the Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke regarding Bill No. 16 060445.
Thank you, Madam President. I move that Bill 060445 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation and a request for rules suspension as to allow reading at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded Bill No. 125 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. 060445 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation; further, that a recommendation of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All in favor will say aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it and the motion carries. Again, the Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke regarding Bill No. 16 060446.
I move that Bill 060446 be reported out of Committee with a favorable recommendation and a request for rules suspension as to allow reading at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 25 060446 be reported out of Committee with 126 6/6/06 - RULES - BILL 060290, ETC. a favorable recommendation; further, a recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next session of Council. All in favor will indicate by saying aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it, the motion carries, and this concludes our public hearing and meeting on the Rules Committee. Thank you all very much. (Committee on Rules adjourned at 12:20 p.m.) - - - 127 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on June 6, 2006, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)