That is incorrect. We established a quorum according to the rules of Council. Please proceed with your comments.
Yeah, I understand the technical distinction. I want the record to also reflect that the quorum was established through a Councilmember who as soon as the quorum was established has left. I also want the record to reflect that we're here now and -
The two minutes is up. Thank you so much. (Background interruption.)
The two minutes is up. Thank you so much. Will the Clerk please call the next person to comment. (Background interruption.)
The time is up. I am the Chair of this Committee. The two minutes was used to comment on what he wanted to comment on. Please call the next public commenter.
Steven Chintaman, Dr. Mark Roche, Camille Pearsall. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)
Thank you. Good afternoon and thank you for joining us today. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comments.
All right. My name is Mark Roche. I'm a mom-and-pop landlord. My rent is half of what's on the sheet, my average rent. I'm the person that I was told here that you want to support. I'm here to support the intention of this bill, but I believe if it's put into law --
Can you speak into the mic. We're having difficulty hearing you.
I believe if it's put into law -- I just (inaudible) my notes. I believe it's put into law it's got to harm 95%, if not, 99% of the tenants. I want to make sure that all the people who were at the press conference this morning know that 99% of the people who spoke this morning will be harmed by that. 100% of the landlords would be harmed by that. The small ones the most, the large ones the least. I have prepared for all details. It takes me five to seven minutes to present those, but I ended here because I'm overwhelmed of what I've just seen here. Thank you.
Thank you so much. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Steven Chintaman with the Pennsylvania Apartment Association. Good afternoon, Chairwoman Gauthier, Sponsor Councilmember Landau and the members of the Housing Committee. Again, my name is Steven Chintaman and I am the Vice- President of Government Affairs for the Pennsylvania Apartment Association. PAA represents over 305,000 units and 316 property management companies across the Commonwealth. Locally here in Philadelphia we represent over 38,000 units and 49 property management companies. I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to testify today on Bills 250044 and 250045. I know that the Committee has a copy of my testimony, so I'll just bounce around here. The PAA opposes the legislation as we believe that the package of bills as drafted and introduced have far-reaching implications on the multi-family rental housing industry, while also hurting the residents we seek to protect. Regarding Bill 250044, the expansion of security deposit laws may inadvertently harm the very populations that it's designed to protect. Security deposits help housing providers manage the risk of renting to individuals who might cause damage or fail to pay rent, fail to make payments, if regulations make it more difficult for housing providers to collect adequate security deposits that may be less inclined to rent a higher risk applicants, such as those with adverse credit histories or those facing financial difficulties. This could lead to fewer rental opportunities for certain demographics and to residents they perceive as lower risk. As currently written, the legislation may unintentionally foster exclusionary and discriminatory practices as housing providers may raise their standards due to the impact of monthly installment requirements. Furthermore, many small housing providers operate on a narrow profit margins and are unable to absorb unexpected rent repair costs or unpaid rent. Security deposits offer them a crucial safety net, allowing them to continue renting without facing any significant losses. If property owners feel the security deposit regulations will impact their ability to operate profitably or increase their financial risks, some may choose to exit the market entirely. This could reduce the supply of rental units, particularly in areas with stricter regulations, increasing housing shortages and making it more difficult for residents to find affordable rental options. We urge -- the PAA urges this Committee to hold Bill 250044 and thoroughly review the proposed amendments we offered to the sponsor's office. These amendments propose an exemption for housing providers from the requirement to accept payments in foreign equal installments under two conditions, if the deposit is more than one month's rent or --
I ask that you just take the next 30 seconds or so to summarize.
Yes. Ultimately, we just ask that this Committee hold these bills and just consider our amendments as sent to the sponsor's office. We thank you for your time or thank you for your time and consideration.
Thank you so much for your comment today. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Good morning. My name is Camille Pearsall. I'm a small landlord, an investor and a lifelong Philadelphian. I'm here today on behalf of many small landlords who are deeply concerned about the impact of the proposed bills will have not just on us, but the future of safe, affordable housing in the city. Small landlords already operate with tight margins and high risk. These bills will only make it harder for us to survive, let alone provide the kind of high quality affordable homes our neighborhoods need. And make no 5 mistake if we're forced out, what will replace us will be large out-of-state investors who often treat our city's poorest communities like profit centers, not places where people live and raise families. I personally own several homes on the street where I was raised in North Philly. I share this not to boast, but to say I saw a need and I made an intentional decision to reinvest in the same community that raised me. I don't just provide homes. I provide quality homes, homes that are clean, safe and full of pride, the kind of homes that my childhood friends didn't have, which kept them hanging out in the streets and places where they should not have been. But that kind of home doesn't come cheap. It takes real investment and protection. Security deposits are one of the few safeguards we have. Sometimes that's the only payment we'll ever receive from a tenant, but we continue to take those risks and rent to those people in these poorest communities. If those safeguards are taken away or allowed to be paid over a time -- if those safeguards are taken away and allowed to be paid over a term, we will also be forced to cap application fees below the cost of a basic background check, which ranges about $45. We aren't being asked to be fair. We're asked to go under and out of business. The small landlords are not the problem. We are part of the solution. We don't put these types of limits on the tools we need to protect what we've built, not just for us, but for the families who count on us. (Applause.)
Thank you so much for sharing your comment today. Thanks to all of you. Will the Clerk please call the next public commenter.
Alexia Clark, Daniel Harvey, Stanley Daniel, Bill Vargas. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)
Good afternoon. Please state your name for the record and proceed.
Good afternoon. My name is Stanley Daniel. I am a licensed realtor, a property manager. I have over 100 tenants. And I also wrote a book on real estate investing. I know your objective is to have lower rents. As a real estate investor and a property manager, I want lower rents also because if I can take a property and rent it for $1,500 a month instead of $1,800 a month and have the same profit, I would have that many more people that I could rent to. I have a question. You don't have to answer, but I'm going to ask it anyway. I wonder how many members of City Council have rental properties. Because I don't like the bill that's proposed here, but I'm not going to sit here and give you all the little dollar and cents things that my previous colleagues gave you. I'm going to tell you why I don't like the bill, because it raises my cost of doing business and that raises the rents. And you should not like the bill for the same reason. Anything that affects the landlords raises rents and is counterproductive to what you're trying to do. Let me give you a good example. Let's talk about how difficult it is right now to do business with L&I, how difficult it is to evict somebody. Right now as a landlord, after two months I would start the eviction process. It takes six months. So after losing eight months' rent, when I get the unit ready to rent what am I going to do? I added an extra $5200 to recoup the money I lost. Everything that City Council has done in the last 500,000 years has been counterproductive to what you're trying to achieve. You want to lower the rents. You lower my cost of doing business. (Applause.)
As I mentioned earlier, I'm a licensed realtor. I have two very large property holders in Philadelphia that I'm selling their log of properties. Why? Because it's unfavorable to do business in the city of Philadelphia. They'll take their money to Delaware County, Chester County, Bucks, Montgomery, wherever. The objectives -- I don't understand your business. I can't run the city. You don't understand my business. Anything that you do that affects my cost of doing business is not going to lower rents. It's going to raise rents. And you're talking about affordable housing. I have sent every member of City Council numerous emails offering free housing to the homeless. Thank you. You think I've gotten replies --
Thank you so much. I did reply to you, but please take the next 7 seconds or so and summarize. 8
Yeah, okay. 9 The talk here is affordable 10 housing, fine, but you don't know 11 how to do it and you have to listen 12 to us. Anything you do that raises 13 my cost is going to raise the 14 rents. Thank you. 15
16 Thank you so much for your comments 17 today. 18 Good afternoon. Please 19 state your name for the record and 20 proceed with your comment.
Good afternoon. My name is Alexia Clark and I'm the Executive Director at Covenant House Pennsylvania. Thank you for the opportunity to speak this afternoon. At Covenant House Pennsylvania, we work every day with young people, to 24, 5 navigating complex housing 6 challenges, specifically 7 homelessness and exiting human 8 trafficking. 9 Many are resilient and 10 striving for stability, working, 11 attending school and building their 12 futures. Yet they often face 13 significant barriers when seeking 14 housing. High application fees and 15 substantial upfront security 16 deposits can make securing an 17 apartment feel unattainable. 18 According to the City's 2023 Point-in-Time count, over 17% of individuals experiencing homelessness are minors under 18 and more than 8% are young adults age 18 to 24. In Philadelphia, many young people experiencing homelessness are doing their part. The young people we work with are earning an average of $13.43 per hour. Even with steady employment, that's not enough. The median rent in the city, as stated here, is 1865, far beyond what a young adult can afford on that wage. Most would need to work over 55 hours a week just to cover rent, not including food, transportation or other essentials. For some of our youth, especially those who don't qualify for housing through coordinated entry, these barriers are even more devastating. These are young people who are still experiencing homelessness but may not score high enough to be prioritized for limited housing resources. They might not have diagnosed mental health conditions or visible vulnerabilities, but they still need a safe place to live. Without support, they're left to navigate a housing market that is stacked against them. That's why the Move-In Affordability Plan is so critical. By capping application fees and allowing security deposits to be paid in installments, this plan removes substantial barriers and offers a real pathway to housing, especially for young people who are often overlooked by existing systems. It is a practical, necessary step that meets people where they are, and helps make housing truly accessible. This bill supports young people, working families and everyone trying to get their footing. It recognizes that affordability is not just about rent. It's about access. At Covenant House, we believe that no young person should be without a home. Supporting policies like this plan moves us closer to that reality and helps ensure that every young person in Philadelphia has a fair chance at building a safe and stable future. Thank you. (Applause.)
Thanks so much for your comments today. Will the Clerk please call the next public commenter. Thank you so much. Will the Clerk please call the next public commenter.
Yeah, I'm Bill Vargas. Thank you, Chairwoman and Vice-Chairwoman for this opportunity. Bill Vargas, better known as Billy V when I was on TV here in Philly as a sports anchor. Most of the money that I made I have invested in properties, including rental properties in Philadelphia to get a little passive income in my retirement years. I'm going to tell you about one situation that will tell you why this bill is nonsense, and that is the situation I'm dealing with on (inaudible) Street in West Philly, where the tenant has been in the property for 13 months, made two payments. And I've beaten her repeatedly in court and she's still there. Run up about $25,000 bills out of my pocket in terms of rent, unpaid utilities, et cetera. The only thing I have is at least the small consolation of $3,700 because she paid off last month's rent and a deposit before moving in. I rented this property to her in March of last year. She wanted both ends of a duplex, $2,000 a month. As soon as she moved in, she was demanding all kind of repairs which I gladly made for her and meanwhile not paying rent, making excuses saying that her brother had died and she paid for his funeral and given her all kind of breaks. And finally, after showing her who I was and giving her those breaks and she kept showing me who she was and making excuses for not paying, I filed for eviction, gave her a 10-day notice. She sent me a disappearing text, threatening my life. I went to the Eviction Diversion Program. They said, your license is expired. Tried to renew my license. City said I owe taxes. I tried to show them all these documents to say that I didn't owe taxes, but nobody would return my calls. I gave it to my accountant. Nobody returned his calls. It's the City of Philadelphia. This is how it operates. So I finally realized I'm fighting to not pay $650 and this woman's living rent free in my apartment for $2,000 a month. So I mind as well just capitulate whether I'm right or wrong, so I paid it. Now, we go through eviction diversion. That's another month of unpaid rent. No money came out of it. Another $2,000 out of my pocket. I go to the eviction program in Municipal Court and I file. They said, well, where's your certificate of rental suitability. I said, I have a license. Yeah, but you also need this thing. Why do I need both? Doesn't matter. You didn't print out a certificate of rental suitability. That means the four months that she's been living in there without paying rent I can't collect. That's $8,000 out of my pocket for not printing a piece of paper. Now, I have to wait another month for my eviction hearing. We go to the eviction hearing. The judge rules in my favor. He says, Mr. Vargas, I'm sorry, but I can only give you the 2000 for the month that passed since you filed until now. I can't give you that other 8000 because the idiots in City Hall keep passing laws --
Okay. That was his quote. All right. But then she made one payment two months late, so it stopped the eviction. I had to start the process all over again. Gave her another three months of living in my apartment rent-free. And then finally on January 31 after all these delays that she was able to get, we went to court. She got caught by the judge lying and falsifying documents. She ruled in my favor. She said, 10,500 for the plaintiff and immediate possession. That was on January 31st. Your immediate possession, she's still in that house while we wait for the sheriff. And these people know what it's about.
This is how it is and your bill is only going to make it worse. And I won't even be able to collect a little bit of money upfront. (Applause.)
Will the Clerk please call the next public commenter.
Thank you everybody who came today. I appreciate very much all of your comments. I wanted to say a couple of things just in response to the last couple of people who testified. One, the objective of these bills was not to lower rents. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
Okay. We're operating with the list that we currently have, but people can sign up if they're not signed up. Okay. If you have not been called, can you migrate over here and just make sure that we have your name on the list. You'll get to comment. Vice-Chair Landau.
To continue where I was, which was to say the objective of these bills is not to lower rents. The objectives of these bills was to just ease the move-in costs to make it affordable and manageable for people. I also wanted to take an opportunity to thank the small landlords who are keeping rents at a low cost. We know that you are essential here in Philadelphia. We appreciate you very much. And also, wanted to comment to the Apartment Association who stated for the record that they're only requesting small security deposits at this point. We appreciate that. That's what this is about. Unfortunately, so many of the other landlords in the city are not following suit. So the goal of the bills is to make it affordable for people to move in so you won't have vacancies, so that we can keep people housed. And it is not in any way to say that tenants wouldn't pay. It would be how they were paying and when they were paying. And final thing to say is, yes, in the City of Philadelphia we have some rules. In order to rent a property, landlord needs a license. Landlord needs a certificate of rental suitability. That's what you need to get before people move in. And if you don't have it, unfortunately there's consequences. Thank you.
Thank you, Vice-Chair Landau. Will the Clerk please call the next public commenter.
Carrie Nelson, Greg Wertman, Yuriy Skripnichenko, pardon my pronunciation, and Jacob Weiner. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)
Good afternoon. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Good afternoon. My name is Yuriy Skripnichenko. I'm a small business owner. I'm the first- generation immigrant and representative of LGB community and I represent a lot of small mom-andpop landlords because I manage properties for them in the city of Philadelphia. I don't want to repeat everything that my colleagues already said, but I spoke to my clients about these bills before. And first to mention that I do not know where this number is coming from, 1865. Our rents across all of our landlords that we manage, for again the small mom-and-pop landlords is around $1,400 and that's in Philadelphia --
I'm sorry. Can you speak into the mic more so that we can capture your testimony.
Sure. So our average rent across all of our Philadelphia land was around $1,400 which is much lower than this. And when I spoke to my clients about your bills that you're proposing for the application fee and for the move-in costs, which sound great, everybody likes that, everybody wants to provide fair housing to our people. Everybody wants to have smaller rents. However, those bills will affect all of our landlords. Half of them told me if that's going to happen, we either will have to collect additional security deposits, which we do not now, that will allow us to at least collect a little bit more money upfront, which will hurt the tenants because they will have to come up with extra months of rent. And the other half of them told me that, hey, if this is going to happen, we will have to sell our houses. And if they're selling houses, somebody out of state will buy them. Somebody will flip them, somebody will get rid of that $1,400 affordable rent that we have right now and you're not going to get what you're looking for with that.
Thank you so much for your comment today. Good afternoon. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Hi. I'm Carrie Nelson. And thank you all for letting us testify since we weren't on your list. We do appreciate that. I'm actually going to change what I was going to tell you. I will tell you just a little bit about myself though. So I started out like some of the tenants we've heard here. In fact, my husband and I lived in a tent for a while before we could finally afford a house. And it took many years until we managed to graduate from a little apartment to the next little place, the next little place, finally bought a home. But as soon as we did and I had an income that could actually support us, I realized that we were never going to beat what we called the time money continuum. All the bills came in always faster than the paychecks, and that was not going to work. So I had to figure out a way to get us a more stable and balanced income stream. And I bought my first rental property. And after that, I started as soon as I could save up another, I bought my first two-story and graduate hospital for $18,000 because, you know, these were holes, there was nothing in there, and rehabbed that and done this all along and rented to people all along the way. And what I found is that I was making relationship after relationship after relationship with all these people and we still keep in touch, many of us via Facebook and other means. Sometimes I visit them when I'm out of town. They're spread across the country. Now, I think of them like my alumni, but this is because we have a relationship. And what happens when you all lay down certain rules, especially rules that repeatedly send a message that all landlords are evil and must be fought at all times and watch out for them because they'll sneak up behind you and get you, it destroys that relationship. And what we're doing as housing providers is for most of us, many people only have one house, two houses. I have 13. I did a building -- I moved into a very dangerous neighborhood. I bought a building that was falling down and I rebuilt it. I actually one night had to fend off people who were trying to get to me with a pump shotgun. I mean, it was rough. But this was the only way that I saw to go forward and to also make all the people who've lived with me through the years make their lives better. I work with every tenant through every situation and have only ever had to file for eviction once and the person finally left. But that was after he owed me many thousands of dollars because I kept trying to pick him up and help him go forward. So what I'm saying is --
Yes, ma'am. Rather than legislating all the time that in a way that makes tenants think that landlords are evil and think that landlords have to be curbed, it would be really helpful if we could create an environment where we have relationships, not just punitive ones on landlords and not just always giving tenants a free ride, but one where they have to work together. And if any of you want to talk about how to do that, I mean there are many of us in this world that have had a lot of experience of that. So thank you very much for your time.
Thank you for your comment today. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
My name is Greg Wertman. I am the President of HAPCO Philadelphia. I sat here and listened to a lot of stories and I have a lot myself. When I took over it was during COVID. I answered the phones. I answered every phone call. I could tell you stories all day and all night. But we're not talking about landlord versus the tenant or the tenant versus the landlord. I'm so tired of it. Without landlords, where would tenants live? Without tenants, where would landlords be? The sooner we all recognize in this room that we need to work together rather than work as adversaries, the better off it's going to be in this city. And unfortunately, we represent the smaller landlords. Our organization has been devastated since COVID. Over 67% of the landlords and tenants didn't get rental assistance. We have lost over 1000 members since COVID. Yes, we represent mostly the small landlords. And unfortunately, those are the people that unfortunately get hurt the most when this type of legislation that's been introduced. It's just not going to work. And a question I have is, and you don't have to answer it, so they pay the first installment, what happens then if they don't pay any more? What happens? And unfortunately, most small landlords work on very small margins, as you know. So we need better legislation than this. There's better legislation. And we also advocate -- HAPCO advocates for more affordable housing. HAPCO advocates that all landlords in this city comply with everything. What about the landlords that don't have licenses? What happens to them? They don't comply with any of these things.
I'd ask that you just summarize in the next seconds. 8
So in 9 summary, we need to increase the 10 $20 and we need to completely 11 forget about installments for 12 security deposits. Thank you. 13 (Applause.) 14
15 Thank you so much for your comment 16 today. 17 Will the Clerk please 18 call the next public commenter. 19
Jacob Weiner 20 and Mike Lynch. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)
Good afternoon. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
Good morning. My name is Jacob Weiner and I'm a member of the onesies twosies, threesies group. I own six rental properties in the city of Philadelphia. Thank you for hearing me today, Councilmembers. I'm here today to express my unequivocal opposition to the proposed tenant security deposit affordability plan known as MAP, Move-In Affordability Plan, a policy that is not only shortsighted but fundamentally dangerous to the rights and livelihoods of rental property owners. This plan does not create balance, does not create fairness. What it does is strip landlords of one of the few remaining tools that they have to protect themselves against financial harm known as the security deposit. Security Deposits are not optional luxuries for landlords. They are essential protections. Landlords assume all the risk when they hand over the keys to their property. We are the ones left to deal with the destroyed units, unpaid rent and costly repairs. We are the ones left to deal -- excuse me. To suggest that this vital protection should be controlled by a government agency rather than the property owner is a complete overreach of power. It removes our autonomy, undermines private property rights and exposes landlords to financial losses with little to no recourse. Let's be clear, this policy will not make housing more affordable. What it will do is drive responsible landlords out of the rental market altogether. It will force those who stay to raise rents, tighten screening criteria or avoid renting to riskier tenants all together, the exact opposite of what affordable housing advocates claim to want. Landlords are not banks, we are not insurance companies and we are certainly not here to subsidize bad policy decisions at our own expense. The proposal fails to recognize that affordability cannot come at the cost of the landlord protections nor should it. If this plan moves forward, if it does, it will send a loud and clear message to property owners, your rights, your investments and your ability to protect your property no longer matter, and many of us will respond accordingly -
Sure. By leaving the rental market or increasing costs across the board, this is a bad policy, plain and simple. And I urge you to reject it. Thank you.
Thank you for your comment today. Please state your name for the record and proceed with your comment.
My name is Michael Lynch. I'm a landlord in your District, and I just came to -- I (inaudible) the same thing everybody else has said. I think it's a bad policy. You're suggesting that -- and one of the people defending the tenant's rights said he asked for his family to help, he asked for his friends to help, he asked for the government to help. There's nobody left to ask but the landlord. And I'd like to suggest that really what we need to be doing is figuring out a way to help the tenant. And I think that one of the ways to do that is to bring jobs to the city. And that's up to you to figure out how to do it. But I think that punishing people because they don't have enough money is not to punish everybody because they don't have enough money, but to figure out ways for them to earn more money. And that's really all I have to say.
Thank you so much for your comment today. Thanks to the both of you. Is there anyone else that wishes to testify on this bill 24 today? (No response.)
Seeing no one else here to testify on this bill, this concludes the business of the Committee on Housing and Neighborhood Development and The Homeless today. Thank you all very much for your -- all bills are going to be held today. And we thank everyone for your attendance and your participation.
Thank you. I just wanted to jump in that you know, as the sponsor of the bills I want to thank everybody for their participation in the process. We are going to consider all of your testimony. And as we have previously before now worked with you, continue to work with you as we move these very important bills forward. Thank you again to the small landlords for being a part of the fabric of Philadelphia. And I end with everybody to say just a reminder again that housing discrimination in any form is illegal.
This concludes the business of the Committee. Thank you so much for coming you. (Committee on Housing, Neighborhood Development and The Homeless concluded at 1:05 p.m.) C E R T I F I C A T I O N I, hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence noted are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me in the foregoing matter, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. __________________________________ TANEHA CARROLL