Committee Hearing, October 20, 2010

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON RULES Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:15 a.m. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN JAMES KENNEY COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILMAN WILLIAM K. GREENLEE COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR. COUNCILMAN JACK KELLY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL COUNCILWOMAN MARIA D. QUINONES-SANCHEZ COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO, JR. BILL 100498 - An Ordinance amending Title 14 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Zoning and Planning," by amending Chapter 14-1600... BILL 100536 - An Ordinance amending provisions of The Philadelphia Code relating to towing... BILL 100538 - An Ordinance amending Section 9-605 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Towing"... BILL 100554 - An Ordinance to amend the Institutional Development District Master Plan of the Aria Health System-Torresdale Campus... - - - 2

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. The Committee on Rules is now in session, with a quorum consisting of Councilman DiCicco, Councilman Goode, Councilman Kenney is chairing the Committee today, Councilman Greenlee and Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller. The bill on our list for today is Bill No. 100554, an ordinance to amend the Institutional Development District Master Plan of the Aria Health System-Torresdale Campus (formerly Frankford Hospital), located at 10800 Knights Road, by allowing for the construction of a new building addition for use as a parking garage. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Mr. Kramer, please identify yourself for the record and proceed.

Good morning, Councilman Kenney, members of the Rules 3 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Committee. I am William Kramer, Division Director of the Development Division of the Philadelphia City Planning Commission. I am here to testify on Bill 6 No. 100554, which was introduced into City Council September 16th, 2010. Bill No. 100554 will amend the Institutional Development District Master Plan for Aria Health System-Torresdale Campus (formerly known as Frankford Hospital), located at 10800 Knights Road in Northeast Philadelphia. This amendment will permit the expansion of the existing parking garage and make certain changes in the driveways in an effort to better serve the campus, which includes a 252-bed medical surgical facility. The driveway changes will result in all access to the campus occurring on Knights Road rather than along both Knights Road and Red Lion Road. The proposed addition will be a four-story addition to the existing four-story garage, which is located on 4 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. the northeast corner of the campus. The addition will house an additional 465 parking spaces, which brings the total number of spaces in the district to 1,761. The Philadelphia City Planning Commission at its meeting of August 17th, 2010 approved the Institutional Development District Master Plan amendment for the Aria Health System-Torresdale Campus. I have just been advised that the Law Department has requested that the large map be placed as an amendment to the bill so that this could be on file 17 with the Clerk's Office as more legible than the electronic version that was submitted with the bill.

Are you requesting a formal --

We are requesting that the bill be amended to include this as Exhibit A within the bill.

Thank you 5 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. very much. Any questions for Mr. Kramer? (No response.)

Is there anyone else to testify? It's up to you. Just identify yourself, please.

Good morning. My name is Peter Tantella. I'm an engineer, consulting engineer, retained by Aria Health System in this matter. With me today is Ms. Linda Wilson, who is Chief Operating Officer of the Aria Health Hospital. We're glad to answer any questions the Committee may have this morning.

Thank you very much. Any questions of the panel? (No response.)

Seeing none, before I recognize Councilman O'Neill, I just want to thank you for your continued investment in our city and 6 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. your expansion, and we do appreciate having the opportunity to help you. Councilman O'Neill.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate your letting it go on first and get back on that 20-mile trek up 95. But I want to first ask for a rules suspension on the bill and, secondly, just note for the record and thank the hospital, particularly Ms. Linda Wilson, the COO, for working so closely with the neighbors and myself. It's rare the level of cooperation and compromise that was reached here with a couple of meetings with the immediate neighbors. It goes a long way to helping the hospital become a better neighbor. Thank you.

Thank you, Councilman. Thank you very much for coming in and your testimony. Is there anyone else to testify 7 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. on this bill? (No response.)

Seeing none, the next bill is 100498, which is an ordinance amending Title of The 7 Philadelphia Code, entitled "Zoning and 8 Planning," by amending Chapter 14-1600, 9 entitled "Miscellaneous," by adding a new 10 Section establishing the Roxborough 11 Environmental Control District, all under 12 certain terms and conditions. 13 Mr. Kramer, please identify 14 yourself.

Good morning, Councilman Kenney, members of the Rules Committee. I am William Kramer, Division Director of the Development Planning Division of the Philadelphia City Planning Commission. I am here today to testify on Bill No. 100498, which was introduced by Councilmember Jones on June 17th, 2010. Bill No. 100498 amends the Philadelphia Zoning Code by amending 8 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Chapter 14-1600, by adding a new Section 3 establishing the Roxborough Environmental Control District. This bill covers the properties known generally as Manatawna Farms in the Shawmont Valley section of the City. The properties are bounded by Hagy's Mill Road, Cathedral Road, the Schuylkill River and the Philadelphia County border and is approximately 76 acres in size, with 50 acres dedicated to farming, community gardening, hay raising and animal husbandry. The purpose of this bill is to establish the Roxborough Environmental Control District as a new section of the Philadelphia Zoning Code. This district encompasses the Manatawna Farms area, which is seen as a wildlife habitat, with the intent to protect the fragile grasslands that provide open space for migratory songbirds and ensure that the serpentine rock formations are not built upon. It is claimed that the 500 garden plots currently located on the property 9 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. have damaged the ecological integrity of the area with invasive plant species, animal pests and storm water runoff. It is believed that further development of five acres for a total of ten commercial farm plots would have a devastating effect upon the environmental integrity of the area. Manatawna Farms is currently utilized by two entities: Saul High School of Philadelphia and the Schuylkill Center for Environmental Education. Saul High School mainly uses its property to grow hay for its animal husbandry program and to provide support for the 4-H program and animals. The Schyulkill Center for Environmental Education manages the on-site community gardens. The City of Philadelphia Department of Parks and Recreation advertised a Request for Information for Management and Operation of Commercial Chemical-Free Farming at Manatawna Farms on March 19, 2010. The RFI stated that 10 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. this program will provide farmers more land than is traditionally available in the City for growing crops. The Philadelphia City Planning Commission considered Bill No. 100498 at their meeting of October 19, 2010. After consideration, the Commission recommended that Bill No. 100498 be disapproved. The current zoning of the property as "R-2" Residential does not permit commercial farming. This bill is creating an additional overlay to restrict a use that is already not permitted under the existing zoning classification, which would normally have to go to the Zoning Board of Adjustment for the granting of a variance. With the prohibition against commercial architecture already in place, the bill is considered redundant. This concludes my testimony. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today and would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you 11 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. very much for your testimony. Prior to recognizing Mr. Focht, I would like to recognize Councilman Kelly and Councilman Clarke to the Committee and additionally in the audience, Councilmembers Jones, Rizzo and Quinones-Sanchez. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed.

Good morning, Councilmembers, members of the Committee. I'm Mark Focht. I'm the Executive Director of Fairmount Park. I appear before you today on behalf of the Department of Parks and Recreation in opposition to Council Bill No. 100498. I would like to use my testimony to outline our concerns, including potential citywide implications across the park and recreation system. The City of Philadelphia is committed to supporting the development and growth of urban agriculture. Urban agriculture and access to fresh, local 12 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. food has a strong place in the City's sustainability plan, Greenworks Philadelphia, which recommends the establishment of commercial 6 agriculture projects in the City. 7 Philadelphia Parks and Recreation, in 8 collaboration with other City 9 departments, including Planning, Health 10 and the Mayor's Office of Sustainability, 11 has undertaken responsibility for 12 implementation of this goal. One of the most significant constraints to urban farming in Philadelphia is access to high-quality agricultural land which will not change in ownership or use. S. Department of Agriculture, the National Lands Trust and our own consultant, Sustainability Planning. All agree that Manatawna Farm presents the best 13 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. opportunity within our system to advance this urban farming goal. It has sufficient land and offers great opportunities to partner with the School District of Philadelphia to engage high school students and learning about small-scale, environmentally appropriate urban agriculture. Manatawna Farm is approximately 76 acres, with acres in hay fields, 13 12 used for pasture, just under seven for 13 community gardens and about one and a 14 half acres surrounding the house and barn 15 complex. The balance of the property is 16 wooded, consisting of steep slopes and 17 other areas which are unsuitable for 18 farming. The property straddles the City 19 limit, located in the City of 20 Philadelphia and Whitemarsh Township, 21 Montgomery County. The School District 22 of Philadelphia uses approximately half 23 the acreage to raise hay to feed the 24 dairy and beef cattle and other farm 25 animals at Saul High School and to graze 14 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. cattle. The School District's resident farmer lives in the farmhouse on the site. In addition, the local 4-H Club uses the farm and facilities at Manatawna. Manatawna has been a working farm for decades. Keeping with its historic use as a farm, the Department proposes to offer up to five acres, which is less than seven percent of the property, divided into small one-half-acre farm plots, totally no more than ten acres, to experienced farmers to operate and manage sub-acre, chemical-free market gardening plots for the purpose of fostering sustainable urban agriculture businesses in Philadelphia and enhancing direct, locally grown market of produce for the citizens of Philadelphia. Bill No. 22 100498 would prohibit this use. It would also potentially serve as a harmful citywide precedence for how park and recreation land is used. 15 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. To gauge the interest in this type of farming, the Department issued a Request for Information called an RFI seeking individuals and groups who could demonstrate substantial experience in farming, which may include experience with "small plot intensive" farm models, which are also known as SPIN Farming, or other small plot farm models, community-supported agriculture programs or farm cooperatives, and with sufficient financial capacity to operate and manage small-scale farming at a high level.

We received submissions to 16 the Request for Information, or RFI, including many from non-profit organizations that provide fresh food to underserved communities in North and West Philadelphia, individuals who would sell their products at farmers' markets and distribute to restaurants and even farmers who would grow fresh flowers or plants to produce natural dyes. The Department has determined 16 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. that nearly all of the responses to the RFI would be qualified to participate in a Request for Proposals, or RFP, process. Respondents to an RFP, which has not yet been released, would be permitted to submit proposals for one farm plot each. If selected, respondents would receive a one-year license for a plot that would require adherence to specified land use protocols. Since February 2010 --

Mr. Focht, I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt, but the question I have is, is this testimony on the zoning change?

Mm-hmm.

It is? Because it seems there's another set of issues here that you're talking about in your testimony, whether you're for or against the zoning change.

The zoning change would prohibit us from doing the things I'm outlining here. 17 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

Okay. Fine. We'll proceed on that basis, but I'm sure we'll have questions. I just wanted you to enlighten me as to where the testimony was going relative to the zoning change.

Sure.

Thanks.

Since February 2010, the Department has engaged local residents and near neighbors to seek input and support as we conceptualize plans for the urban agriculture. Unfortunately, some, but not all, of the near neighbors oppose this type of farming at Manatawna Farm. Our proposal would repurpose only -- excuse me; 19 only five of the 25 acres currently used 20 for hay production. One of the concerns 21 voiced by the near neighbors is a 22 perceived loss of habitat. We would like 23 to just briefly outline how we address 24 that work at the Department. 25 We believe firmly that 18 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. small-scale, commercial-free farming, which would not be allowed under the ordinance if passed, could occur at Manatawna without negatively impacting habitat or storm water management. In fact, in 2010, the Department provided to our stakeholders a list of principles to guide for this use of Manatawna Farm using environmentally sustainable principles, part of those -- a number of them which are in my testimony which you received, but one -- just highlight one of them, which is to support the development and sustainability of diverse habitats which complement the work of the Department and its partners in the Schuylkill and Wissahickon watersheds. When discussing habitat, it's clinically important to note that the Department has been actively engaged in this immediate neighborhood in Northwest Philadelphia to increase the area of habitat, specifically grasslands, throughout the park system for the 19 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. remarkable benefits that they hold. Specific to this site or immediately adjacent to this site, the Department is improving six acres of land immediately adjacent to Manatawna to develop enhanced habitat quality for several priority bird species adjacent to the Schuylkill Center. We've also recently acquired from Public Property the Roxborough Reservoir and have developed substantial meadow habitat at Saul High School -- excuse me; at the Wissahickon Valley Park immediately adjacent to Saul High School at a site called Houston Meadow. These parcels in total 70 acres of habitat we have created, similar to the habitat adjacent to and in proximity to Manatawna. For these reasons, the Department and our colleagues in Planning and the Office of Sustainability, along with Parks and Recreation Commission, are opposed to the restrictions on urban agriculture that would be placed on 20 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Manatawna Farm as a result of passage of Bill No. 100498. Therefore, we respectfully seek this Committee to not approve this legislation, and I would be pleased to answer any questions.

Mr. Kramer, what did you testify the parcel is now?

Zoning parcel is currently zoned "R-2" Residential, and "R-2" Residential will say that it permits agriculture and horticulture, but specifically prohibits commercial farming as part of the Zoning Code. It's been that way since 1967.

So what you've described in your testimony, you're telling me that the zoning would not have to be changed to do that?

We would have to go to the ZBA for a variance.

But it's a change in zoning use, correct?

For the small-scale commercial -- 21 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

Correct. It's not "R-2" Residential. You're going to look for a variance to the "R-2" Residential.

Correct, we would have to.

So what is the difference between Council, who has the authority to change the zoning designation, or the ZBA that gives you a variance to do it? If you need a variance to do it, what's the difference between changing it here or getting a variance at the ZBA?

In this instance what's going on is, there isn't -- this is just adding another refusal onto the system. This is not a zoning change bill. The zoning will still be "R-2" Residential, which would still be a variance for the commercial. This is now creating an overlay in the Code that says now 14-1630 whatever now would require that you have a variance from both 22 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. sections of the Code. There would be another section of the Code to obtain a variance from. The existing Manatawna Farms is there as a pre-existing non-conforming use. It's been there since whenever.

Councilman Greenlee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question is sort of on the same line, a little different spin. First, Mr. Kramer, you said basically the Planning Commission's opposition is the bill is redundant, right?

Yes, sir. It creates another --

I guess my basic question, so what's the problem with that? I mean, it's kind of reinforcing what is there already. I mean, is that the Planning Commission's only opposition really?

That was the 23 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. position that they stated yesterday, yes, sir.

All right. Then, Mr. Focht, right now if you want to do this right now, this bill 8 was not passed, you'd have to go to the Zoning Board, right?

Correct.

If this bill passes, you're going to have to go to the Zoning Board, right?

Correct.

What's the difference? I think -- and Councilman Jones can speak for himself, but I guess the point is, I think what he's trying to do is reinforce this issue. But either way, you have to go to the Zoning Board, so I guess where's the beef? No pun intended there.

We are talking about a farm that raises cattle, yes. It just was unclear to us if 24 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. this was added, there's two layers -- there's already a layer of protection with the site because it is zoned Residential "R-2." This would add an overlay, which, in our conversations with the Planning Commission and the colleagues, our colleagues at the Planning Commission, seem to be redundant.

But if it's redundant, it doesn't change anything. Redundancy doesn't change; it's just reinforcing, right?

I understand.

So it doesn't seem like if we pass this, in a sense, other than sending the clear message where the Councilman and the community wants to be, it doesn't change anything. You still have to go to the Zoning Board today or two weeks from now if we pass, right?

Mm-hmm.

Thank 25 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. you.

All righty, then. Councilwoman Miller, do you have any questions?

No. 8

Anyone else have questions for these witnesses? (No response.)

Seeing none, thank you very much for your testimony.

Thank you.

Mr. O'Neil, Mr. Garcia, Ms. Kobland and Mr. Kates. Come up as a panel, please. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Thank you very much for your attendance today. Before we get started, it's kind of my sense of the Committee that we're on your side. So your testimony is important for the record, but I want to make sure that 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. the testimony is varied. I don't want the same testimony about the same thing, because we're most likely going to vote this out the way you want it.

We tried to make our testimony each to be about one or two minutes.

Perfect. Thank you. Please identify yourself for the record.

Good morning. My name is David O'Neil. I'm a resident of Roxborough, live adjacent to Manatawna Farm. I'm a founding member of the Friends of Manatawna Farm, an advisory board member of the Schuylkill Center and a supporter of community gardening, urban farming and building the local food supply. I spent ten years reviving the Reading Terminal Market and was one of the first people to bring farmers back to the City and popularize local food. For the last 20 years, I have worked to 27 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. rebuild local markets' economies and food supplies all over the world. On behalf of my neighbors, surrounding community and civic groups, all of whom -- we have all the civic groups from the area. Their letters are all in your packet -- I ask you to support Councilman Jones' ordinance to create the Roxborough Conservation District to protect the endangered grassland habitat and support the farming programs of the award-winning W.B. Saul Agriculture High School. Manatawna Farm is a sustainable community of gardeners, neighbors, farmers, birders and students who have achieved that often elusive balance of uses based on responsible land stewardship and respect for nature. Manatawna is, in its most auspicious state, productive, useful and beneficial. In addition, the farm as currently managed is a large natural filter lying 360 feet above and adjacent to the Schuylkill River that helps keep its 28 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. waters cleaner to the benefit of many citizens of Philadelphia. Manatawna Farm is a place that has escaped the trampling of development and is increasingly threatened with experiments, fragmentation and schemes for outsiders to make money. In the future, these pressures will only become more frequent and adamant. As such, we ask that you support this ordinance, this community, these students and wildlife to protect and preserve a green sanctuary that is not to be found in any other city in this country. There are thousands of places in Philadelphia to establish community or market gardens, so it makes no sense to undermine Saul High School's farm-to-table food system, break up its soils and increase storm water runoff, subvert the wishes of the community and commercialize, with public subsidies no 24 less, one of the last grassland habitats in the region. 29 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. We are all supporters of urban farming, yes, but in places where it breaks through concrete and breathes life into communities that hunger to be connected to nature and improves residents' abilities to feed and support themselves where they can learn through involvement. We need to create more green places, not undermine the ones that already exist. Thank you.

Thank you. Whoever is next, please identify yourself for the record.

Emilio Garcia.

Please pull the microphone close to you. Thank you.

Thank you for allowing me to speak to you this morning on behalf of W.B. Saul High School, and I'd also like to introduce one of my other colleagues here, Ms. Victoria Macatee, who is a 4-H member and a Philadelphia FFA Chapter historian. 30 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. I currently serve as the President of the School District's City-Wide Student Government, which is a student government of at least 150 students who represent the 58 high schools within the School District. But I'm also a senior at Saul High School. As a member there, I also serve as an FFA member there. So I respectfully ask that the Rules Committee support the Bill No. 12 100498. Saul High School is the largest and oldest agricultural high school within the United States. It's a fantastic place, with students of at least a body of 550 students who come from all over the City to learn how to be urban farmers and to learn the science of farming. But a lot of this -- a lot of our culture is already going on at Manatawna Farm, because of the hay production that's there is essential to our school's farm-to-table program. All of the livestock at Saul is 31 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. dependent on Manatawna's hay. Any development on it or reduction of the hay field would reduce the school and force them to have to purchase hay elsewhere, which doubles the cost outside of the City. So as a result of that, the school just can't afford that. One of our full-time farmers who lives at Manatawna Farm has been there for the past years improving the 12 soil there and nourishing the hay fields for all of our animals. The school started an even greener campaign when some of the curriculum includes field study of how agriculture and wildlife can co-exist on a farm. For example, our farmer doesn't mow the fields when migratory birds are visiting and nesting. So we need all the hay we can get at Manatawna Farm to make room for the birds and other forms of wildlife and also to provide the feeding of hay for our horses, the sheep and beef and dairy cattle at the school. 32 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. We are grateful to Councilman Jones for introducing this ordinance to protect Manatawna Farm. By passing it, you'll protect hundreds of my schoolmates and future Saul students who are future holders too from the risk of losing an essential component of our education, agriculture. With respect, I urge you to pass this bill to ensure a sustainable future for Saul students. For without it, other students like me won't be able to have the opportunity to become farmers.

Thank you very much for your testimony. Any questions for the witness? Councilwoman Brown.

Good morning. Thank you for your testimony. How old is the Friends of Manatawna Farm?

We just started as a result of this controversy.

And the 33 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. relationship that you all enjoy with Saul, just speak to that in some greater detail.

Well, we've always had a relationship. We live together. We're adjacent to each other, but this has brought us closer. We've worked with Saul and the students and the administration to implement some of these principles about haying to integrate the education and the habitat and the hay fields for the students. It's really innovative work that's going to be copied around the country.

I'm very much aware of the important work of Saul historically, and to know now that there is a linkage with the broader community augments, if you will, real-life experiences around the profession of farming. So thank you very much for your testimony, young man.

Thank you.

Thank you 34 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. very much. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed.

Yes. My name is Christina Kobland. I'm the wildlife lady. I'm here today to testify not only on behalf of Friends of Manatawna Farm but also on behalf of East33.org, an organization advocating for wildlife and the protection of their habitat. I am a zoologist and also President and Founder of Native Return, LLC, a Lafayette Hill business specializing in biodiversity through native plant habitat restoration. I lecture throughout the country. My clients include the City of Philadelphia, Division of Aviation, for whom I am doing a multiple-year wildlife and habitat research study. My projects have won numerous regional, national and international awards. I also happen to be a neighbor, owning property adjacent to the Manatawna wildlife corridor, half of which is 35 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. located in Whitemarsh Township. It is an area I know like the back of my hand and whose wildlife I love like members of my own family. I would like to begin by thanking Councilman Curtis Jones for introducing this wonderful piece of legislation that not only permanently protects this special steep-sloped property, but also draws global attention to the importance of conserving sensitive open spaces for wildlife. Biodiversity is the life all around us. The greater the biodiversity, the more stable the system. It is not optional. Without biodiversity, we as a species cannot survive. It provides the ecosystem services upon which we all depend, including the purification of our air and water, sequestration of our carbon dioxide, the recycling of our waste and the building of our top soils, to name just a few. While we support urban farming 36 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. initiatives, this wildlife corridor is clearly not the place for it. Make no 4 mistake, taking any portion of this 25-acre, minimally disturbed hayfield for commercial farming will destroy the biodiversity it supports forever, as it is in the center of 600 acres of conserved land. Sensitive species shy away from fragmented parcels. Land animals cannot pass through a fenced-off field. This land is especially important because it supports species of conservation concern, such as bobolink, meadow lark and a breeding population of eastern box turtle, not to mention fox, wild turkey, American toad, bobcat and countless others. Thanks to Saul School's agreement to amend the mowing schedule at a hayfield, five dozen bobolink returned to the site this year, a critical stop-off feeding and resting point in their annual migration to and from 37 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Argentina. Providing an alternative location for them is no guarantee the birds will relocate. Picture these tiny birds flying non-stop for five or six days over the Amazon Rain Forest and open oceans, returning to Manatawna in an emaciated, exhausted state. They arrive to find their field and food source gone. It is almost unthinkable the obstacles these birds face in their will to survive. This bill will preserve the habitat for them forever, as well as for other important species. What a wonderful legacy to leave to those who come behind us, and I ask, what could be more green than this? The school has also agreed to time the mowing schedule to allow these birds not only to feed but to complete their breeding cycle at Manatawna. The community and the school are working together to teach Saul's 600 students the importance of sharing our land with 38 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. wildlife, to protect our biodiversity, by preserving this habitat and wildlife corridor forever. Again, thank you, Councilman Curtis Jones, for introducing this bill. We ask that you give it your full support to show that Philadelphia is indeed the greenest city in America. (Applause.)

Thank you very much.

To keep this brief, we just got a letter of support from State Senator Vincent Hughes, which I won't read. I'll just enter it in.

We have a letter from Congressman Chaka Fattah and from Senator Vincent Hughes in support of the ordinance. Thank you for your testimony. Yes, sir. Please identify yourself for the record.

My name is Jim Kates. I'm Vice-President of the Friends 39 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. of Fox Chase Farm, which is another facility like Saul High School in the Northeast part of the City. We support this bill. We are concerned that something similar is going to happen at Fox Chase Farm. I have -- I'll summarize my testimony, because I know you want to move on. It's in your packet. Basically, we have 10,000 school children who come through here every year, and we're concerned about bringing people in. If you work for the School District, you have to have certain kinds of background checks and criminal records checks and so forth. In order to do that, we're concerned about bringing day laborers and stuff like that in. But we support the bill. Actually, just on rumors, we circulated a petition. You're welcome to have it. We got 300 people to sign a petition last Saturday opposing this at Fox Chase Farm and also supporting what 40 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. you're doing here. So thank you very much.

Thank you for coming in and for your testimony. That will conclude the witness list that I have. (Witness approached witness table.)

Yes. Hi. Please identify yourself for the record.

My name is Roxanne Christensen and I'm here to oppose the restrictions that are going to be placed on commercial farming at Manatawna Farm. For the past ten years, my work has been focused on building a business case for urban agriculture, beginning with the Somerton Tanks Farm project, which was a half-acre commercial demonstration farm operated in partnership with the Philadelphia Water Department in Northeast Philadelphia. That farm generated $68,000 gross from under an acre. The Pennsylvania 41 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Department of Community and Economic Development funded a study to document the economics of that farm and to project out what the total maximum revenue potential could be from that type of farm setup, and it was $120,000. I'd like to make two comments regarding the restrictions that are being proposed. The first relates to the term "commercial," which in the context of the Manatawna Farm initiative means for-profit urban agriculture businesses as opposed to non-profit urban agriculture projects, of which Philadelphia has many. The practices that are used in commercial urban agriculture are much different than large-scale agribusiness. It's, for the most part, non-mechanized. The only mechanized equipment that's used is a roto tiller. It's organic based and chemical free and actually creates mini balanced and diverse habitats that can contribute positively to the environment. 42 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. The second point I'd like to make is, urban agriculture can be an economic engine. It is attracting energy and investment by entrepreneurs. That is the type of activity that Philadelphia is trying to attract. And urban farmers should be supported, not thwarted. The same practices that would be allowed at Manatawna Farm to produce under a thousand dollars, which, as I understand it, is one of the restrictions in the bill, have been used to generate $68,000 gross, and in these financial challenging times, it does not make sense to introduce restrictions on economic activity. And the Manatawna Farm initiative represents an important next step for Philadelphia to establish a commercial urban agriculture industry that will expand the supply of healthy, nutritious food within the City, create self-maintaining green space and generate new business activity, and I would, therefore, urge you to support the 43 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Manatawna Farm initiative. Thank you.

I'm sorry. You oppose the bill? You're opposed to the piece of legislation --

I oppose the bill, as I understand it -- and I haven't followed all the twists and turns, but it restricts commercial farming at Manatawna.

So you're opposed to this bill?

That's why I oppose the bill.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Anyone else to testify? Councilman Jones, please.

Mr. Chairman, I want to, first of all, thank you for having this important discussion today. I want to thank all of 44 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. those, both for farming and for the restrictions of this bill, for coming out today, because this is a very important issue as it relates to the future of the City of Philadelphia. Make no mistake, I am for urban farming, but not at Manatawna. (Applause.)

For the record, so that it is clear, we have other places. Fairmount Park controls over 2,000 acres of farms, and why those five acres are so important is a mystery to me. There are places like Logan that is 35 acres of non-usable land at this point that could be converted to urban farming, which is closer to the point of destination for the distribution of those goods. It just is amazing to me that the only place in the City of Philadelphia that can grow a vegetable is Manatawna Farms, and I would argue that that is not the case and would hope that 45 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. the people who have lived in this community for decades get to enjoy their community in the way that -- this is not a new thing for you, Mr. Chairman. I first met you up at the 21st Ward. You travel up that way extensively and you know the surroundings.

It's a great district.

That's right. And so I hope --

The 4th.

-- that we can continue that way of life for Philadelphians. We are a diverse district and we want to keep it the way it is. Thank you.

Thank you, Councilman Jones. (Applause.)

That will conclude our testimony on this bill. The next bill we have is Bill No. 100538, 46 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. which is an ordinance amending Section 3 9-605 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Towing," by providing that a vehicle may be relocated from the premises of a hospital without first being ticketed, under certain terms and conditions. Lieutenant Healy and Mr. Forte. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Please, whoever is ready to start, please identify yourself for the record. LIEUTENANT HEALY: I'll start, Councilman.

Fran, could you pull that closer to you. Thank you. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Good morning, Chairman and other members of the Rules Committee. My name is Francis Healy and I'm special advisor to Police Commissioner Ramsey and I'm here to testify on his behalf regarding Bill No. 24 100538. First and foremost, the 47 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Commissioner, as always, would like --

Lieutenant, hold on one second. Councilman. Please identify yourself for the record again and proceed. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Sure. My name is Francis Healy and I'm special advisor to Commissioner Ramsey. I'm here to testify on his behalf, as I mentioned, regarding Bill No. 100538. First and foremost, as always, the Commissioner would like to extend his gratitude for allowing the Police Department to voice its opinion on this legislation. That being said, let me state that the Police Department supports the amendments offered by Councilman Kenney. Although vehicles may be temporarily removed for emergency reasons in hospital parking lots, these illegally parked vehicles must still be ticketed prior to being towed to a storage facility. This 48 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. amendment is consistent with the existing exception for licensed parking lots found in Section 9-605(d). In either scenario, although an illegally parked vehicle can be temporarily relocated without a parking ticket, a ticket must nonetheless be issued prior to them being transported to a storage facility. Equally important, any law enforcement agency in Philadelphia is authorized to issue these tickets. So since parking tickets are still required to be ultimately issued in these scenarios, the Police Department does not believe that the amendment offered in this bill will undermine the integrity or the intent of the original ordinance, and, for this reason, the Police Department has no objections to its amendment and would respectfully recommend its passage from this Committee.

Thank you very much. 49 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Please identify yourself for the record.

Good morning, members of the Council Committee on Rules. My name is Joe Forte and I'm the Director of Security at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify on behalf of Penn Medicine in support of Bill 100538 sponsored by Councilman Jim Kenney. Let me begin by saying that Penn Medicine fully appreciates the need for greater oversight of towing operations in the City of Philadelphia and we applaud City Council for the work you have done over the past few months to improve service and safeguard the rights of citizens from predatory towing practices. Council Bill 100538 seeks to balance these important safeguards with the need for flexibility in situations where patient safety could be jeopardized by an illegally parked vehicle blocking a 50 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. critical access point to the hospital. Penn Medicine's hospitals provide urgent and emergency care services hours, seven days a week at 6 our three acute care hospitals in the 7 City of Philadelphia: The Hospital of 8 the University of Pennsylvania, Penn 9 Presbyterian and Pennsylvania Hospital. 10 Each year we provide emergency care for 11 more than 116,000 patients, more than 300 12 patients per day in our hospital 13 emergency departments. The Hospital of 14 the University of Penn, HUP, is also a 15 Level I trauma center that provides 16 specialty trauma care to patients 17 throughout the region, and both HUP and 18 Pennsylvania Hospital also delivers more 19 than 9,000 babies combined each year. 20 These patients arrive at our hospitals 21 using different methods of 22 transportation, but, generally speaking, 23 the most critical patients are 24 transported by vehicle, both ambulance and car. It is imperative that these 51 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. patients have unobstructed access to the main entry points of the hospital at all times, and it is the responsibility of my team to ensure that occurs. Our primary concern is for the safety of our patients during critical times when the delay of even a few minutes could make a difference in saving a life. Council Bill 100538 would give designated hospital security personnel the authority to relocate a vehicle blocking a critical patient access point without first being ticketed by the Philadelphia Police Department or the Philadelphia Parking Authority under certain conditions. These conditions would require hospitals to follow a clearly delineated process that includes the completion of an official form by designated hospital personnel. The legislation would also mandate that tow operators remain at the temporary location after removing the vehicle until an enforcement officer arrives and 52 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. determines that the vehicle should be towed. In short, the legislation would allow hospitals to move a vehicle parked in a dangerous location immediately, while still requiring compliance with all the other aspects of the revised towing law. We believe this is an important and necessary tool for hospital security in cases where an illegally parked vehicle presents a clear threat to hospital access for those in need of emergency care. We view towing as a last resort, and our hospitals would reserve this method only for those times when we deem it to be both necessary and within the scope outlined in Bill 100538. While we do not have data on the number of vehicles that would be affected by this change, based on our past history, we estimate that we see an average of five vehicles per year blocking critical patient access points at hospitals. 53 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. While this number is small, the impact in terms of access to critical emergency services can be significant for a patient in the back of an ambulance or a mother in active labor, underscoring the need for this change.

On a personal note, I guess around eight months ago we had a situation where we had a vehicle that was blocking half of our entrance point to our trauma center at HUP. The other part of the area was filled by rescue squads. Well, we had a rescue squad come in seconds later and they had to unload a gunshot victim on the street, around 50 to 60 feet away from the actual trauma door. So that's an example of why this is so important. In summary, I would like to thank you for recognizing the unique challenges hospitals face in the new towing laws and offering a common-sense solution that we believe enhances public safety while still maintaining the rights 54 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. and protections of vehicle owners. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to provide testimony in support of Bill 100538. I will be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Thank you very much. Any questions for this witness? (No response.)

Any other questions?

I do. Good morning, gentlemen. In trying to grasp the substance of this bill, in your view, who are the winners or losers looking forward? LIEUTENANT HEALY: If I can answer that question. I believe our biggest concern from the Police Department's perspective is two issues. One is consumer advocacy, making sure that people who have their cars towed are having them legitimately towed and that they have a recourse available to them. 55 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. That's why we have the ticket in place. The second issue is for uniform enforcement. So my police officers know that if somebody is taking a car from a private property, that it needs a parking ticket. Basically that gives my officers the authority to do whatever enforcement they have. They can see a car being transported without a ticket, they can make the car stop, determine whether or not it was taken properly or not properly. So for those two reasons, I think this ordinance -- or, I'm sorry, this amendment, really it's a win-win. Because I understand the need to move cars temporarily in a hospital setting. We need to ticket the cars, but in this scenario here, the cars are being moved around, jockeyed around so they can do the emergency stuff that they have to do, but before the cars are being actually transported on Philly streets to a storage facility, they still require the 56 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. ticket. And, actually, that ticket will have the information on it of who saw the violation and who is available to testify against the car owner, so the car owner still has the ability or recourse to go into a court and determine, hey, look, I parked my car legally, you took it improperly. At least he still has that mechanism. My biggest problem when this bill was initially drafted was it carved out a completion exception. There would be absolutely --

It carved out a what? LIEUTENANT HEALY: A complete exception for the hospital setting where no tickets would be issued, and from a Police Department perspective, we objected vehemently, and I think we came to a very good resolution. The fact is, I understand the need to jockey the cars so you can get the ambulance in, but before that car gets transported somewhere else, it still needs a ticket. 57 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. So nonetheless now we're back to square one, so everyone is on the same page. Everyone who gets their car towed from private property, I can say that with all degree of certainty, should have a parking ticket on it. Whether it's from a private parking lot or from a hospital setting, the fact is there will be a ticket on it, so I can give clear guidelines for my police officers from an enforcement perspective.

Okay. So what I'm hearing is uniformity becomes a plus universally. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Absolutely.

Across the City. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Correct.

And that's not a circumstance now, that doesn't exist right now? LIEUTENANT HEALY: Right now the way the Councilman's bill was originally drafted and passed, every car 58 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. taken off a private property lot would need a ticket.

After November 12th. LIEUTENANT HEALY: So what happened is, that caused some problems in the hospital setting, whereas we need it moved now, we can't get a police officer, an enforcement officer now. So what this bill allows them to do is jockey the car, put the information of who saw what, where, when and how on the car, so when the enforcement officer comes, the car is still on location, although may be slightly different, but the officer can then write the ticket based on that information, which is acceptable under the Rules of Criminal Procedure for summary citations.

And in some ways that protects the consumer, because now at least the consumer knows what the standard procedure is versus having X number of folks who tow cars 59 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. having all different procedures. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Exactly. More importantly, it gives them access -- that ticket gives them access to the court. If they believe they've been aggrieved somehow, prior to Councilman Kenney's bill, you really had no 9 recourse. You had to go to these private lots, pay your car, and then if you thought you got ripped off, you had to sue them. Now you have a parking ticket, which is your ticket into a court of law where a traffic court judge or originally a municipal court judge can make a determination whether or not you were parked legally, your car shouldn't have been towed, and then from that issue, the judge has different discretion and powers.

I see. And it's University of Pennsylvania speaking today, but you're representing the hospital industry; is that fair to say? 60 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

Yes. And truly, Councilwoman, the real winners are the people that are seeking critical care that need to get into a hospital right away.

Okay, then. Thank you for your testimony. LIEUTENANT HEALY: Thank you.

Thank you.

Anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)

Seeing none, we'll move to Bill No. 100536, which is an ordinance amending provisions of The Philadelphia Code relating to towing; in particular, amending Section 19 9-605, entitled "Towing," by revising the provisions for the licensing of towing companies; by revising the rotation system for towing certain vehicles; by providing for fines, penalties and license suspensions, and for administrative adjudication of certain 61 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. 1, relating to fees for towing and storage of immobilized or impounded vehicles; all under certain terms and conditions. I'd like to take the opportunity to just read a statement before we start, also reiterate the fact that this bill will not be requested to be moved out of Committee today. We intend to listen to all of the testimony, to make whatever changes are appropriate to the bill and at a future date to vote the bill out of Committee to get it to the floor. This is my personal statement relative to this legislation. Nothing more clearly demonstrates the need for cleaning up the towing industry in Philadelphia than the recent arrest of a tow truck driver who 62 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. was charged with murdering one of his competitors. The incident, coupled with gun violence this past summer involving two competing towing operators, mask a daily battle on the streets of Philadelphia, where unsuspecting consumers pay the price for a towing industry that is sometimes out of control. There have been countless reports in the media and hundreds, if not thousands, of complaints filed against tow truck operators for ripping off consumers. While the harm done to consumers can be measured on an individual basis, the perceptional harm done to Philadelphia and our tourism and hospitality industry in terms of lost tourist dollars is immeasurable. Last spring, I joined with my colleagues on Council to try to bring some sanity and order to this madness. I introduced legislation to prevent tow truck operators from towing vehicles off 63 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. private property until a ticket issued by the law enforcement. The bill recently signed into law by Mayor Nutter goes into effect November 12th. We are here today because in spite of all our past efforts and good intentions, towing in this city is a major public safety hazard and consumer protection issue. While the majority of tow truck operators are law-abiding businesspeople, the sad fact is that a good many are not. That's why I've introduced legislation, Bill No. 100536, designed to bring some order and sanity to the towing industry. My legislation would give joint regulatory oversight of towing companies to the Philadelphia Parking Authority and the City's Department of Licenses and Inspections. This oversight would include the licensing, inspection and review process of tow companies, all vehicles, as well as administering the rotational towing program. In its current form, the 64 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. legislation increases the standards for the licensing of tow companies and tow vehicles. It also creates much-needed safeguards for drivers involved in accidents whose vehicles require a tow through the rotational tow program. Based on feedback from the industry, amendments are in the process of being drafted to provide for the licensing of tow truck operators to enhance accountability. Additionally, members of the industry have asked for more stringent requirements for participating in the rotational towing program. Feedback through testimony today will also be considered. This is a very complex issue with a number of interested individuals. While I do not intend to move this bill out of Committee today, the testimony provided will be considered for the amendments that will be offered at a future hearing on this legislation. 65 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

Related to the licensing of tow companies, the proposed legislation raises the standards of the industry to enhance public safety and trust. New York City and the State of Texas are examples of other jurisdictions that require companies to be licensed. Their fees are also similar to what is proposed in this bill. Licensed tow companies who choose to participate in the City's rotational towing program will have to meet additional requirements related to equipment and must follow strict guidelines related to response times where they may -- and where they may tow a disabled vehicle. Specifically, tow trucks will be required to arrive at an accident scene within 20 minutes of being dispatched, and no vehicle may be towed without police authorization. Furthermore, this legislation would authorize the Parking Authority to monitor and track all tows related to the 66 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. rotation program and handle all billing and payment matters, too. Customers will be billed by the PPA, which will in turn pay the towing companies. This will result in uniform towing and storage rates, along with acceptance of debit and credit cards as well as cash. All vehicles will be towed and stored at a secure 24-hour Philadelphia Parking Authority lot unless otherwise directed by the customer. Customers can also have their vehicles towed directly to an auto body shop of their choice. My legislation provides harsh penalties for any non-approved tow truck that shows up at the scene of an accident. The first offense is $500, the second is a thousand, and the third offense is a thousand dollar fine and a six-month license suspension. With that as background for today's hearing, I would like to thank my colleagues and open the hearing today and recognize Deputy Commissioner Everett 67 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Gillison for testimony. Please identify yourself for record. DEPUTY

Thank you very much, Councilman. Everett Gillison, Deputy Mayor for Public Safety for the City of Philadelphia. Good morning, members of Council, members of the Rules Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today on behalf of the Nutter Administration to testify on Bill No. 14 100536, which seeks to amend provisions of The Philadelphia Code relating to towing. This bill, introduced by Councilmen Kenney and Jones, offers some very creative solutions to longstanding problems that have existed in the towing industry. We have all heard countless complaints of citizens who have had encounters with tow operators who seem to take advantage of drivers' difficult circumstances. Moreover, we have heard 68 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. complaints about tow operators racing to accident scenes, failing to carry the necessary safety equipment, failing to heed a vehicle owner's instructions on where to take their vehicle, failing to accept credit cards for payment and failing to provide safe and secure storage and a host of other failures. All of this conduct imperils public safety. The authors of this bill should be commended for their creative thinking in devising ways to combat these issues. The proposed Code changes with respect to inspections, licensing and enforcement are positive suggestions at curbing these abuses. It was just this past summer that we all heard the dangerous tale about two tow operators engaging in reprehensible conduct over which operator would tow a vehicle involved in an accident at Whitaker and Hunting Park Avenues. Since that time, the 69 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Philadelphia Police Department has made changes to the way in which it operates the rotational towing system. Police officers are no longer dispatched to accident scenes via police radio, where the broadcast may be intercepted by a tow operator with a scanner. Officers are now dispatched via their mobile data terminals, to which the public has no 11 access. Also, once police radio dispatches an officer to an accident scene, the dispatcher calls the tow operator next in line on the rotational list. These changes help to curtail wreck chasing and the inherent dangers of that practice. The Police Department is committed to the rotational towing system. The Department desires that the system operate in a safe and efficient manner and will continue to monitor the system and make operational changes when necessary to achieve these goals. Bill 70 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. No. 100536 offers a creative scheme to revise the rotational towing system; in particular, placing responsibilities in this area with the Philadelphia Parking Authority. We are willing to consider any solution to make the system work, although we understand there may be impediments to implementing that particular proposed scheme. The Administration pledges to continue to work with all of those on Council who desire to bring a sense of order and sanity to the towing industry. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. I'll be happy to answer any questions from the Committee.

Thank you very much. Mr. Fenerty, do you have anything to add at this point?

No, Mr. Kenney. I was invited here by you today to answer any questions which the Councilmembers 71 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. may have regarding the rotational towing system or how the Parking Authority would handle this if called upon.

And you intend to stay for the duration of the hearing?

Yes, I do.

Thank you. Councilwoman Brown.

Yes. Good morning. DEPUTY

Good morning.

I agree, any opportunity to offer additional sanity is always great for the consumer. What do you believe the impediments are? DEPUTY

Well, we've all -- I think both Council's lawyers and the lawyer from the City Solicitor's Office say that there are some issues that we have to overcome with the provisions for the inclusion of the Parking Authority to help us out in this 72 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. area. We're looking at creative solutions there. We're also looking at training issues within the Police Department to see if we can actually find a better way of enhancing once an officer gets to the scene, what their -- and clearly delineate what their responsibilities are and what they're permitted to do under the system and what they're not. Any solution that is being proposed, even with this solution also as a model, would require increased officer participation at the scene and also increased reliance on either the PPA and its area that it would actually come in or having additional, what I call, freeze-the-moment-in-time when the officer gets there and clearly delineate who is going to be allowed to do what at what time. Those are the critical things that we're still working through. We're still looking at both suggestions to training, but we're also looking at how 73 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. we can actually enforce some of the things that Councilman Kenney's bill has addressed, which is licensing, weight restrictions, things that the Parking Authority has the ability to do, and we're trying to figure out how we can work together to make this a safer situation for all.

Thank you.

Councilwoman --

A portion of your -- I had a follow-up.

I'm sorry. I apologize.

A follow-up directly tied to the issue of staffing. So is it logical to think that because of the potentially new duties and responsibilities, there will be a need for increase in staffing on both sides or just with PPA? DEPUTY

Our 74 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. initial modeling from -- and these are discussions that I had with Mr. Fenerty over the summer -- indicated that staffing would really not increase all that much. It's really about how to address the situation out on the scene first, and that's why we are actually trying to go slow in how we actually address this. And I think Councilman Kenney, I've been in touch with him a number of times about this issue over the summer, and the reason why we did the mobile data terminal piece was to see how does that affect the wreck chasing. We have --

What was that? The reason why you did what? DEPUTY

That we've actually now put all of our information out over the mobile data terminals that are in the police cars is because that's a secure network. It's only available to law enforcement and it only goes to the officer on the scene and 75 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. back. That stops the scanner tipping and everybody running because of what information they're getting over public airwaves. So we've seen a reduction in that kind of movement as we're getting out. Of course, for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. We understand that now the scanners are being, for the Fire Department, are being monitored, and we're looking at how we can use that. The good thing I can report is, I'm moving mobile data terminals to the fire truck and fire matters as well, so soon that will become something that is a non-issue as well. But it takes -- this is a very complex situation, as the Chairman has indicated, that we want to make sure that we get right. The licensing, the amount of work that needs to be done on the, I think it was, the safety issue that Mr. Fenerty was talking about with the tonnage for towing and all 76 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. of that does seem to be -- we support that being addressed, and we're making sure -- we want to make sure that it's done and it's addressed in a way that doesn't burden the rest of the system. Currently, License and Inspection is responsible for doing that, but we actually might want to see and we're looking into supporting that aspect of it that might be done better by a different agency, and we're working with Mr. Fenerty to see if that's something we can do. But these are all things that have to kind of be flushed out and that's why we are moving slowly.

Slow-walking. DEPUTY

Yeah, we're slow-walking this to make sure we get it right.

And so your response leads to a subsequent question. Speak briefly first, though, to licensing. Licensing of what? 77 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. DEPUTY

The bill talks about placing within the Philadelphia Parking Authority the ability to license the tow operators in a way that would be uniform.

If you could stop right there, because I don't want to lose my next thought. So does the Parking Authority currently have a practice where you subcontract with X industry to handle any of the operations of the Parking Authority?

We --

Please identify yourself for the record.

Vince Fenerty, Executive Director of the Parking Authority. Councilwoman, the only thing we do subcontract currently is some heavy-duty wrecker work when our wreckers are not available. We only have three heavy-duty wreckers, and also some 78 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. recovery work, of which the equipment is too expensive for the Parking Authority to purchase.

So with this new enterprise, is what it becomes, or it becomes a new segment duty of the Parking Authority; is that fair to say? DEPUTY

No. I don't see it that way and I don't believe that we've discussed it that way.

It's just important to note that the Parking Authority will not be towing vehicles from the accident scene. Private tow companies will still, if they qualify for the rotation system, will be doing that work. The difference is that the car, rather than being taken to a private impoundment lot or to sometimes a body shop, which is another problem, it will go to the Parking Authority lot, where the chain of custody will be kept consistent.

That 79 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. clarity is important.

So the private towing industry will still be going to the accident scenes when discharged or dispatched by the PPA to tow the truck and will be paid for it.

Okay. I don't want to lose my thought. So then the PPA becomes the spoke in the wheel with regards to those private towers who get the opportunity; is that fair to say?

That would be fair to say, yes.

And the process you use at PPA to ensure equity across the board for opportunity is what?

If we were to do this, it would be a rotational tow system, and everything we do would be approved by the Deputy Mayor, Mayor Gillison's office.

All right, then. Thank you both for your testimony. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 80 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

Councilwoman Miller was in line. I'm sorry, Councilman Kelly.

Good morning. I'd like to get information on how one gets on the rotation list. Is it difficult? Is it easy? DEPUTY

No. 10 It's actually --

What are the steps? DEPUTY

It's actually quite easy. Currently, there is a form that is required that is sent out by either Revenue or License and Inspection. I'm not sure. I think it is License and Inspection. Persons sign up for the matter. They have to meet certain guidelines. Those guidelines are how fast you can actually get to a particular area of the City and how fast you would be required to respond when your number comes up on the rotational tow. They have to almost aver in the 81 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. application that they will be able to get to this particular place whenever notified, and we have divided the City up -- or the ordinance divides the City up into various zones. So people can be on two contiguous zones, but can't be on like, I can be anywhere in the entire City and I have one truck. It does not -- that doesn't exist. So I believe right now we have approximately 87 to -- somewhere between 87 and 95 businesses that are on the system, and they are ranked. And then all that happens is that whenever the next person comes up, they're moved on and they are assigned the tow.

If I may add, so operationally right now, a call goes to 911 about an accident. There are 911 operators also dispatching other things. So it's not always a high priority to get the rotational tow system started. We believe that having 911 flip the call to the PPA 24/7 dispatcher, who 82 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. will have the consistent list of people who will be called consistently and the next person up. The other benefit we believe is that there will be a history, a list, of how many times you are called in a year, how many times you failed to respond or how many times you did respond. And so it's a more -- we came to the conclusion that looking at past practice, L&I, as much as they work and as hard as they work, don't have the people to do this. We tried to get the Police Department involved because we wanted a little more consistency from them, and they've done a much better job than nothing before, but it's still not their main mission. Their main mission is not inspecting tow trucks. It's fighting crime. So we believe -- and the rest of Council will agree or disagree -- that the most logical place to go after that would be the Parking Authority that actually tows things and is involved in towing. 83 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. And, again, it's important to reiterate that we're not removing the towing practice from the private tow companies. It is simply the qualification process and the operation of the rotational tow, but they'll still be doing the work.

Okay. So we have a car accident and 911 is called, and then they call on the mobile data. DEPUTY

They put it out -- not call. It's actually -- imagine it's a computer in the car, so you get a text.

It's mobile, though. It's not over the scanner. DEPUTY

That's correct.

And then who calls the Parking Authority? DEPUTY

The police officer at the time they arrive at the scene. Well, it's not -- the Parking 84 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Authority is not involved now, but the Councilman's suggestion is that at the 911 entity, that that person at the dispatch would end up calling the Parking Authority for --

For them to call? DEPUTY

Right.

And then the Parking Authority calls the tow company? DEPUTY

That's correct. That's the change that the Councilman's bill is looking at. I'm still looking at the dispatch of the police officer to the scene to make sure that what is it operationally that we need to do to improve that response. The Parking Authority doesn't have the enforcement powers of going to a particular location and making sure that people are acting the way they need to be acting at the time of an accident. So we are looking at our training and our 85 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. response right now to make sure that when we get to the scene, how do we let the officers know that they're in charge of that scene. They're dealing with people who obviously are upset, distraught, and they have to not only freeze the scene but also wait to make sure that currently it is that officer's responsibility to notify dispatch to call in a tow, whether or not one is needed or not. That's in that officer's discretion at this current time, and that's what we are actually reviewing and have been reviewing since August, is there a better way that we can do either improving training or improving what we're doing to help this issue out and to make sure that we don't put the public in any additional situation that seems to be in a negative situation, I'll put it that way.

All right. You know, when you're involved in an accident, you're really just frustrated and you just want to get it 86 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. over with. So once the officer determines that there is the need for a tow truck -- now we're back to rotation -- how many zones do you have citywide, how many? DEPUTY

I believe currently -- I have to get back exactly the number. I think it's six. It's either six or seven. Six. Thank you.

Six zones. And then a tow operator can be on two of the zones? DEPUTY

Two contiguous zones.

And you have 87 listed tow operators? DEPUTY

Yes. My last count when I was looking at it in August when this came back up, it was 87 to 89, somewhere in that area.

You know, what I heard early on with the rotation was that certain companies were being 87 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. called all the time and other companies were not being called. (Applause.) DEPUTY

I can tell you that one of the things that is required is that we have an audit of the number of times people are responding and have been called. So if that is a question, I'll be glad to provide the Chair the information.

That is a question, because I've always had that, and I just -- my interest is to make sure that we're not going to hurt small businesses. (Applause.)

And I'm wondering if, with the Parking Authority doing the rotation, if it will improve the rotation, if it will improve. If it will -- I mean, hopefully they'll have a good record. You have records, you said? DEPUTY

Right.

I'd be 88 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. real interested in seeing it. I also want to see how many minority firms are also on your list of the 87 plus or whatever number of towers. I do have more questions, but I know Jim has been over here trying to get in, so I'll let him get in, but also later I just want to talk a little bit more about what the Parking Authority's responsibilities will be in licensing and also in the qualifying, I think, in qualifying tow trucks. All right.

Councilman Kelly.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to be crystal clear, that after a vehicle is towed from the scene to the Philadelphia Parking Authority's lot, then the owner of the vehicle would have the right to make the following decisions, whether it's towed by that same towing operator or another one, they can call another one? 89 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

That's correct. Once the vehicle --

In other words, once it's in your lot, then it's up to the owner of the vehicle to make the decisions on where the car goes from there?

It's up to the owner to make the decision, and the owner could call any licensed tow company that's licensed in Philadelphia to retrieve the vehicle.

Or they can call a dealership or --

A dealership or whoever.

Whoever is going to fix the car.

Whoever, body shop, whoever.

I would like to know, is there a standard fee that's going to be set up for vehicles towed to your lot? 90 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

It's included in this bill, Councilman Kelly. It's going to be $175.

A hundred seventy-five. That would be a standard fee to get it from the scene of an accident to your lot; is that correct?

Yes.

All right. Thank you.

I mean, understand -- so let's make sure we understand the back story here relative to the increase in the towing fee. It was done to accommodate the loss of revenue that may happen with not being able to store the car at a private lot. So we're trying to be a little considerate to the private tower by increasing the fee, because we recognize there may be a drop in revenue relative to the PPA storage. So we're trying to balance this as best we can.

All fees will be 91 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. set by City Council.

As always.

Thank you.

Councilman DiCicco.

I have another question.

Councilwoman Miller.

I'm not sure, but didn't we do the bill where a private owner -- where an owner of a vehicle could call a private company themselves --

Yes.

-- to get their car towed? (Applause.)

Yes. That's in this bill.

Okay. Good. Because that was one of the problems I heard early on about the rotation, was that you were not 92 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. allowed --

No. This bill permits you at the scene -- (Applause.)

This bill 7 permits you at the scene to call your brother-in-law if he has body shop. You don't have to participate in the rotation system. So you can have it go anywhere.

All right. That's good. And I just want to know a little bit, Mr. Fenerty, about the qualifications of a vehicle -- of the tow truck. I'm not trying to be a tow truck driver or I don't have a tow truck company, but I never even thought until Councilman Kenney said to me today earlier when we were talking about this, I never even thought about whether a tow vehicle qualified or not. I just figured they all did.

Councilwoman, in this ordinance, there are -- it is 93 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. outlined what a proper tow vehicle is. It would be a standard tow vehicle. It would not be a pickup truck with a sling laid across the bottom of it to show up at the scene. It would be a qualified tow truck, which would have certain weight classes to tow other certain weight classes. They would be inspected by our mechanics, our state-licensed mechanics, which are already on staff. We will just give them some additional duties. If they qualify, they can be placed on rotational towing, if they wish, whatever they apply for, or there are many companies may just apply for tow licenses that now go to L&I. But what we will do is, we will standardize the inspection. They will have to pass a state inspection once a year and they will have to have a tow vehicle, not a pickup truck converted into a tow vehicle for random calls.

Okay. So is that different from what they have to 94 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. do now? Wouldn't they have to pass --

I'm sorry.

Wouldn't they have to pass state inspection now?

They would have to pass state inspection now, taking the vehicle to their own mechanic. It would be required under this ordinance that it would go to a Parking Authority mechanic to pass inspection. That way, prior to it being licensed, it would be deemed roadworthy by a qualified mechanic who works for the Authority under the supervision of the City of Philadelphia.

Okay. Would it be the -- it's the same cost, I guess?

Same?

Coming to the Parking Authority mechanic versus going to your own private or whoever.

It may even be a little bit cheaper. I don't know what the Councilman said in here. I don't 95 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. recall off the top of --

And, again, we have not finalized all of the fees at this point. We're still in discussion. We want to make them mirror the private industry as best we can.

Okay. All right. Thank you.

Thank you. Councilwoman Quinones-Sanchez.

Yes. Thank you. I want to note before I begin my questioning that this incident -- what led us to some of these incidents happened in my councilmanic district, and I think it's important to note that the author of this is trying to deal with an issue that we all in Council have had a concern about, which is when the industry takes advantages of folks in the street and when they behave in a way that, as Gillison mentioned, Deputy Mayor Gillison, is unsafe in the streets, and I share the author's concern for that. And 96 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. I hope that the industry takes these discussions as a message that we are serious about getting this right for the safety of folks and that we need the industry to be more cooperative in how we get there. That said, I want to ask Deputy Mayor Gillison, Councilman Rizzo had worked on the towing rotation. Can you speak to what you see the current problems of our current rotation system and why we would be looking to give this authority over to the PPA? DEPUTY

Well, I think that -- and, again, we are still in the process of trying to understand the positives and the negatives that are out there. We've had the rotational system now for about, I guess, a year and a half, almost two years. As we have gone forward, we've learned a lot of different things. Obviously there's -- I will say again, for every action that is taken, there's an equal and opposite reaction. 97 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Rotational towing is a good thing, not only from a business point of view but it gives people opportunities to grow their business and to be here in the City of Philadelphia. The problems, quite frankly, were the fact that the scanner issue. We thought that by having the rotational tow, that we would end up keeping people from running to the sites. The scanner situation allowed -- and one of the issues in the rotational towing that allowed for the private person to have the opportunity to negotiate with whoever was present put the police officer, we have found, in the position of trying to barter a deal in the middle of it, and technically government is not supposed to be in the middle of that private relationship that can be established on the street. So we ended up putting officers in the position of when they get there, trying to figure out what is the need of the consumer, the person who is involved. At the same 98 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. time, trying to manage the safety issue. And that's where I said that what we have learned, especially in the last two months, is that we have to provide a better way for the officers to negotiate on the scene what their responsibilities are under the bill and the law that's here in the City of Philadelphia. And we are addressing that. We thought that we would first try to address the rushing to the scene by taking the information off the public airwaves and putting it directly to the officer. That gives them additional time, number one. And time is of the essence here. Number two, once the officer gets there, under the bill we can actually ticket people.

But I want to speak to what we have now, because clearly if we have problems with our system now, we need to understand that before we create a new policy -- DEPUTY

That's 99 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. correct.

-- and then we're testing something else. So I want to know, what is wrong with our current system? DEPUTY

The training issue we have to improve, and we are working on the improvement. We've already moved the MDT to give us some data as to how we're handling the situation now. That's only been in effect for less than two months. The problem of what the responsibilities of the officer are if they arrive on the scene and a person is hooked up and they're not on the rotational tow, is that a violation of this ordinance, yes or no, and what is the penalty going forward. The Law Department has opined that it is a violation of the matter, and, therefore, the officer can issue a ticket, and it can be up to a thousand dollars under the current ordinance. 100 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. We haven't issued those tickets. I think the officers needed to be told directly what their responsibilities are. So we have identified certain problems now. They become quite apparent, especially now that we have more time once we get to scenes to assess who needs to do what at what time going forward. So these are the issues that have come forward. This is the data that we have been analyzing, and we are looking at what training needs to be done to help the officers.

Just so I may add too also, one of the things we discovered with the current rotation system is of the 87 or 89 companies on the list, some of them aren't even licensed. I mean, the issue was that some of them owe like lots of taxes.

But who has oversight of that right now? 101 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

L&I. But the issue is that even -- and I won't mention the names of the companies, but even the four or five that have been recently identified were on the rotation list. There's no way they should ever have been on that list, and that's part of the problem when, I think it was, the last Administration implemented the rotation. They wanted to understandably make it open for as many people as possible, but there needs to be some standards of business practice that folks need to come up to in order to be eligible, because we are putting a license of the City of Philadelphia on a truck, that if something happens, we're open to liability. Some of those converted Ford trucks, if something happens with them, they flip over or they flip something else over, we have actually authorized them to be on the street with that license on the side, which has caused lots of issues. 102 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

So my question is around, what is the current role of L&I and what would it be under this current proposal? Because I see that as a failure of L&I. I mean, we've introduced bill 8 after bill around cross referencing people's BPTs with licensing. So why did L&I issue licenses to people who owed us taxes and, therefore, are in violation, and what is their certification process now? DEPUTY

The certification actually -- well, if you remember, a lot of this with L&I comes down to a paper process that we are now trying to change into an electronic matter. Literally, the cross referencing that we're all trying to do in order to make sure that revenue is coming into the City that needs to be collected, all of those things -- the complexity of what we're trying to do, you have L&I, which has a limited number of people that do 103 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. the inspections, quite frankly, there are a limited number of people that are available to do the cross referencing. You can move things by paper, and we all know what we've been trying to do over the last three years to get rid of paper and to move it more towards an electronic system. There are developments either in RFIs or RFPs to help us do this across the City, but that takes time. It's not something you can just implement tomorrow. You can put a stack of paper forward and send it over to Revenue, who would send it over to Law, who would send it back, but that's something that we have to do in a way that is measured that gives people time to do what we need to do. And, quite frankly, the way that the ordinance is written, there's a lot of responsibility that L&I has on it that needs to be shared between L&I, the Police and Revenue and Law, and all of that is something that I have to coordinate 104 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. within my office to make sure that we end up addressing this in a collaborative way with all the departments required. One of the things and one of the suggestions is, is that by relieving L&I, is that going to be a positive or a negative when it comes to who would actually do that, and the question that Councilman Kenney was asking that we're still reviewing is, is PPA the person to do it. I've had many conversations with Mr. Fenerty over the summer, the licensing issue and the weight class issue. They brought things to the table during our discussions over the summer that make sense, quite frankly. And so we're trying to look at this, make sure that when we fix it, that we come forward with a fix that is holistic, that will allow us to do the things we need to do, but I just didn't want to say that this is the -- we've identified a lot of the problems. Now 105 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. we're trying to figure out how can we improve the current system while we're in this system and then, quite frankly, work on the longer-term solution, of which this may be a way forward and it may actually suggest other things that have to be done as we go forward to fix this.

I guess my concern, and I shared it with Mr. Fenerty directly, there's a lot of things in government we don't do correctly but are our responsibility, and it's easy enough to say we're going to find somebody in private industry or anywhere else to do it and abdicate our responsibility. I think you're adding another hand to the plate, which to me would make that whole process of check and balances more complicated, not less complicated. (Applause.)

So I have a real concern about that, because there's a lot of departments in the City 106 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. we can sit here and say, Well, you know what, I know a computer tech firm that does this better and this better, and we'd be all over that. That said, how is L&I -- what's going to be L&I's role in the proposal and how is it going to interface with Revenue and Parking Authority, particularly because the City doesn't have direct oversight of Parking Authority? What's L&I's role in this, in the proposal?

From our discussions, L&I wanted to legally maintain the responsibility of issuing the license. They didn't believe that the issuance of the license --

To the car or to the towers?

To the truck. They didn't believe that the legal -- they didn't want to abdicate the legal responsibility of issuing the license to the tower. 107 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. They are willing, as far as we have known and could figure out so far, to take the advice of the Parking Authority relative to the condition of the truck, the weight of the truck, the needs of the truck, qualifications and, based on their analysis, be the formal issuance of the license. The way it works now is that -- as you know, L&I in many areas is stretched to the limit. They didn't have the folks either qualified to do it or enough folks to do it, and that's how the Police Department got involved. So when the Police Department, the tow unit, got involved, it got a little better, but over a couple of years, it went back to seeming that anybody who came looking for a license got one. And some of -- as Mr. Fenerty said, some of those trucks who have been illegal and not street-worthy for a number of years start appearing with licenses on them. So it was more a jurisdictional 108 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. issue with L&I maintaining the formal licensing thing while they dealt with the Parking Authority. But, again, the Parking Authority is not exactly City government, but it's not exactly a private entity either, so it's kind of a hybrid agency that we don't have total control over for sure, but seems to be the most appropriate within the City's governance abilities to deal with the problem directly. I don't think it's L&I or the Police.

Councilman, as you know, I appear in front of City Council very frequently. If we were to be delegated part of this or all of this, we would issue whatever Council and Deputy Mayor Gillison would want, monthly reports, quarterly reports, yearly reports, on any aspect of it. We would bill the rotational towing system, which would be computerized, that at any given time be printed out, that we would devise it in such a system that there would be a 109 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. monthly report that would show what calls came in, who they were assigned to, if someone turned it down, if someone was re-called because they took too much time to get there and if another tow truck was assigned. We intend to do this with baby steps. And I think as all Councilmembers know, whenever information has been asked from the Parking Authority, there's no 12 one in Council to say we have not responded. So we're not going to act on our own, and through the discussions which I had with Mayor Gillison over the course of the summer, we would be reportable to his office for all of our actions, our regulations and all reporting.

I have one more question for Vince and I'll let the rest of the testimony go forward. One of the things that I mentioned to Fenerty was my concern about the Parking Authority applying their other rules and 110 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. regulations as part of this process, and I'll explain. From a consumer perspective, I'm in an accident, I get towed to the Parking Authority lot. Am I going to have to pay what could be contested tickets to get my car? (Applause.)

As I had replied to you that --

I just want it for the record.

As I had replied to you with that point, any vehicle which is towed to the Parking Authority doesn't get released until the vehicle goes through the Bureau of Administrative Adjudication. If the regulations were set that one did not have to do that or if there was a modification to the regulations such as setting a hearing and come back later, that would have to be set by the City Council on how exactly --

Excuse me. 111 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Just a question. If you go to BAA now -- your car was towed in a loading zone or whatever and you go to BAA now and you have tickets, you can go to 9th and Filbert, wherever it is, and you put a program together where you're going to pay over time. That clears you up, doesn't it?

You can go to Bureau of Administrative Adjudication, which is not governed by the Parking Authority -- it's a City entity, an independent City entity -- explain the circumstances. They would set what's called bail on the car, a minimum amount to get the car out, place you on an IPP, which is a time payment plan, which is required under Section 12-2400 of the City Code, and then the vehicle could be released.

But you don't have to pay your tickets in full if you're contesting them or you're paying them over time; you'll still get your car 112 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. back?

You would still get your car back after you went in front of a hearing examiner. (Audience members talking.)

After you went in front of the hearing.

Excuse me. I'm sorry. Everyone will have an opportunity to testify, but we're not going to take testimony from the gallery. We just can't do it. So we understand the process and the record is not confused, if I have ten parking tickets and my car gets towed and I go to a lot to pick it up and they tell me it's ten tickets, you got to clear this up, and I go to BAA, what happens?

You will have a hearing, a bail hearing, in front of a hearing examiner. They will set what the minimum collateral is for the release of the vehicle, conduct a hearing on the 113 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. innocence or guilt, if it's been timely. If the tickets are five or six years old, they will just put you on a time payment plan. But there is a requirement that you would have to post some type of collateral to get the vehicle out, and that is determined on an individual case under statute set by City Council that's determined by a hearing examiner.

Okay. But you get your car back?

Yes.

I think that's one of the things we have to flush out in this, but I'll let the rest of the testimony and then --

That is something we would have to discuss with Council, whatever the --

But also the same thing with insurance.

Well, no one gets out of the impoundment lot under any circumstance unless the vehicle is 114 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. insured or unless an insurance company or a lienholder or the claimant, they come in, they're covered by their insurance to pick it up. We do require everyone who retrieves their vehicle to be insured and the vehicle to be registered.

And that's state law?

Yes.

Councilwoman Brown.

Of the current 89 on the rotation list, is residency in Philadelphia an eligibility factor? DEPUTY

I don't know. Everett Gillison, Deputy Mayor for Public Safety. I don't know. I'll have to research and get it back to the Chair.

He can check it. I do believe the arrangement is that if you are not a resident, if you 115 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. don't have a business residing in Philadelphia and the township or municipality outside of Philadelphia prohibits Philadelphia towers from doing work there, you're precluded. If you live in a township that allows Philadelphia towing companies to participate on a rotation list or to do tow work in that township, you are eligible to apply here. It's a reciprocity issue. If they're prohibiting us, we're prohibiting them. If they're allowing us in, we allow them to apply.

Okay.

I believe. DEPUTY

We'll have to confirm that.

So we'll get clarity on that. And the follow-up question is, members of Council are always -- and I stepped out, so forgive me if the question was already raised -- of making 116 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. sure that businesspeople of color and women are in the mix of opportunity. So of that 89, what's the breakdown in terms of -- DEPUTY

That was a question that was asked, Councilwoman, I guess when you left, and I have pledged to the Chair that I will get the list of the firms, the number of minority and women who are currently in it, and I would provide that to the Chair. I didn't bring that with me today.

Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Are there any other questions for these witnesses? (No response.)

Seeing none, thank you very much. Mr. Fenerty, if you can -- I don't know if you have the time or not, if you could hang in there 117 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. just a little bit. If not, I understand. But, Mr. Fenerty, you're going to stay, right?

I have until 1:15.

All right. Next list panel is Jose Giral, Sheri Pagano and Mikina Harrison, please. (Witnesses approached witness table.)

Please identify yourself for the record.

Good morning, Councilman. My name is Jose Giral.

Please proceed.

For about 11 years I have owned a small towing company which is located in Philadelphia. Currently, I am on the City's towing rotation. If this bill is passed, I'll be forced to go out of business. While I understand and agree with the spirit in which this legislation 118 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. was crafted, this bill is not the answer. Currently, on Philadelphia interstates, the State Police use the Parking Authority for all tows, excluding private tow companies. I understand that the City cannot do anything to help us on the expressway, but they can help us here. I see this bill as a foundation for things to come. Philadelphia is not the only city that had these problems in this industry. There are a lot of different ways cities have dealt with this similar issues, but none of which involve the Parking Authority. I believe that Police and License and Inspections should maintain authority and work with the industry in order to resolve these problems. I provided some Councilmembers with a few solutions that have been proven to work in other cities. One idea is issuing a tow operator license. This will create a record of operators so they 119 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. can be monitored. Another idea is modifying the current rotation system already in place. The Parking Authority will be a partner in my business -- by my business by me having to tow cars back to the Parking Authority so they can collect storage and prevent me from maybe even acquiring the second tow. Consumers will be charged an extra $25 every tow to cover the Parking Authority's administration costs. Also, by granting them the memorandum of understanding is how they got the authority to tow exclusively on the state highways from the state. Furthermore, if this bill gets passed, owners picking up their vehicles at the Parking Authority lots would have to pay the outstanding tickets. I agree that everyone should pay their tickets, but that might not be the right time and place. I'd like to say that the 120 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. current rotation system has not had significant time to be adjusted in order to work, so enacting the current bill 5 would just be starting all over again. And, most importantly, by giving the Parking Authority enforcement powers, this would only increase the cost of tows to the consumers, but also increase application and license fees. Most importantly, during tough times. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I appreciate your testimony. I just want to make sure the record is clear. The raise in towing fee suggested from 150 to 175 was done to try to help the industry save some money. If you want us to back it up to 150 again, I mean, that can be done in the legislation. I don't mind hearing complaint about some things that you may disagree with relative to the bill, but the 175 from 150 was done to help, not to hurt. 121 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

To help who? The Parking Authority? Because that's where it's going to.

No. It was helping -- (Applause.)

When we finally do the bill, if folks still feel the same way, we can knock it back to 150 if it's a consumer protection --

Why would anything have to be going to the Parking Authority? Right now the current rotation does not -- it's $150 and it goes straight to me, and it's a straight fee, which that's what we charge.

And we were trying to make you whole.

Also in this bill, what happens is, you have to tow the car back to the Parking Authority, right? Which that takes away storage fees that I could be collecting.

That I 122 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. understand.

And also maybe I might have a -- get a second tow out of it by towing it from my business to wherever the owner wants to.

I'm not disputing any of your testimony, other than the fact that the 175 was done to make the 150 that you get whole. That's the only reason it was done. So I just want to make sure that the record is clear that that was done basically --

As a courtesy to us?

No, out of discussion with the industry, not out of courtesy, just to try to make you whole, that's all. So I just want to make sure that was understood. Please identify yourself for the record.

Hi. Good afternoon. My name is Mikina Harrison and I am owner of A-Bob's Towing in 123 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Philadelphia. I only got notice of this recently. I did not receive this in the mail, so I haven't had a lot of time to prepare most that I have a problem with in the bill. But one of them is, we do private lot enforcements, and there is a particular lot over at Haldeman and the Boulevard that's owned by a private real estate company that we contract with, and one of their clients is Chickie and Pete's, and lots of times people park their cars there when they go on road trips, and Chickie and Pete's call us to enforce their lot, and in this bill it suggests that we have to wait for police officers or PPA to come and ticket the vehicles first, and in the past we already had a delay with police dispatch. Lots of times the system was down, we could not obtain the three-digit number, and that basically decreased a lot of the cars that we could tow, which caused lost revenue. 124 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. Currently, since the police don't even come out for regular fender-benders, I'm concerned with the response time it would take for them to come and ticket a car on a private lot. That's the first problem. The second problem is, it takes the ownership out of the person that actually owns their private lot. If they contract with us and we are going to them in a very quick fashion to remove the vehicle so that Chickie and Pete's can actually accommodate their customers, why would they have to wait for the police to ticket their cars? (Applause.)

First, your testimony is not on this bill. The bill 20 that was already passed is going into effect November 12th.

I'm sorry. I was told it was inside of this as well.

No. 25 There's another bill that deals with 125 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. hospitals relative to that piece of legislation. But relative to the issue of the ticket to tow, the reason that we got to where we are is because we believed that you needed a neutral arbitrator, a neutral person who had no 8 financial interest, to decide whether or not that car was actually illegally parked, because we've had numerous complaints of folks who, of course, one side says one thing, one side says the other, I wasn't parked illegally, yes, you were, and the people take care their car. We needed someone, Parking Authority, Police Department, University Police, SEPTA, anyone's eligible or authorized to issue a parking ticket. It does not have to be just the Philadelphia Police. In instances where we have well-known, ongoing issues, Chickie's and Pete's, for example, both there and in South Philadelphia, we have made arrangements. The Parking Authority has 126 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. agreed that when we know there's a possibility of large numbers of cars parked illegally, they will put folks out there, because it's in their interest also to write those tickets from a revenue standpoint and to get you on your way with the illegally parked cars. So we can make those arrangements on special circumstances when there's an ongoing, regular problem, and we've gotten that commitment from the Authority.

Is there some type of standard that you guys have labeled as a reasonable response time?

No. We're going to monitor that and adjust accordingly. Again, a lot of these issues we're dealing with -- and I'm sorry that you're having to deal with them in a financial way -- had to do with the way the industry conducts -- some of the people in the industry conducted themselves over the years. For example, 127 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. just last week, just last week, with all this discussion of towing going on, just last week a Parking Authority tow truck stopped a private tow company from removing a car from the curb in a loading zone. Now, the car may in fact have been illegally parked over time in a loading zone. That private tower had absolutely no right to take that car, none, but already had it hooked, ready to take it, and if the Parking Authority hadn't showed up with the police, he would have taken that car. These are the problems that we're trying to address. Do I want to burden the Police Department any further for having to go out and put a ticket on a car? But I'd rather have that done than a person lose their car because a tow truck driver decided, whose financial interest is at stake, that that car is parked illegally. I mean, just last week it happened. Even with all the discussion that we're having over the 128 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. past couple months, they're still taking cars from the curb illegally. So I need a ticket on that car in order for it to go. But as far as the individual circumstances that you've described, we're going to address those on a case-by-case basis, with help from the Police Department and the Parking Authority. I mean, we'll monitor it as it goes forward. Let me tell you, there's no 14 perfect piece of legislation that's ever going to come out of here, and everything gets adjusted every couple of years. My first piece of legislation on towing I think was passed in 1993 and we still haven't fixed it. So we keep on going at it and people still try to get around it, but I'm sure that will happen if this thing passes. But we'll see.

Well, Sarah from your office faxed me Bill No. 100213. So is that everything that we're discussing 129 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. today? Is that correct?

No. This is Bill No -- what we're dealing with now is Bill No. 100536, which is --

I have that as well, but she had handed me 213 and I thought we were discussing that.

213 was signed by the Mayor, and we are amending 213 today to help hospitals move cars quicker from their emergency zones for emergency room -- their emergency areas.

Okay. So in Bill No. 536, it contains a lot of the things that's in 213. So that's why I was --

And, again, once you have a chance to acclimate yourself to the bill and study it, we're not moving the legislation out of Committee today. We will be having one or probably two more hearings before we're finished. So you're welcome to come back or to communicate with Sarah by 130 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. letter or by e-mail what your concerns are that we can try to address.

Well, some of the things I did look over would be the $500 fee, right?

Five hundred dollar fee for which?

A licensing fee, a relicensing fee. And currently -- for the business privilege license or license for towing? I wasn't clear on that.

The initial licensing is 500. The additional licensing yearly is three.

And that's a change, correct?

Yes.

Okay.

I think -- I mean, again, I recognize the fact that you've just gotten the bill, and hopefully you could peruse it and then come back to our next hearing or communicate with Sarah and we can try to 131 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. accommodate your issues.

Absolutely. One last thing. While testimony was going on, one of my other colleagues had mentioned that when we were speaking about the rotational system and if we are allowed to be on their county, then they can be on our county, I was told that was false, that two out of the three heavy-duty trucks that do towing for PPA do not reside in the county.

But that's not the issue we're dealing with here.

I just wanted to make sure you knew that.

I understand, but that may be accurate, but in fact has nothing to do with this legislation. And the reason that we have this discussion about reciprocity is because I don't want to be in a situation where we start prohibiting Bristol and other places, Delaware County, from towing here and then they retaliate by 132 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. passing legislation that keep us out. So it's kind of a mutually "if you let us in, we'll let you in."

All right. Well, I appreciate your time.

But I'm sure you'll be back in another hearing. Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilwoman Brown.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to ask you the same question I asked the two first witnesses. In your view, who are the winners and losers in this proposal?

We're the losers and the Parking Authority are the winners.

You are the losers because?

Because they actually taking revenue away from us and 133 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. basically creating a system that is not right.

What value do you see in uniformity across the system? Or, no, maybe you don't --

I think there's a need to uniform the system. And there's already a system in place. I think what we need to do is go back to that system and try to fix it basically with the help of the Police Department and L&I, not the Parking Authority.

Is there uniformity in the existing system?

Yes, the existing system.

In what way? Describe it.

There's a lot of changes. I spoke to City Council about even creating a operator's license, which every individual that operates a tow truck would have to apply for a license and, of course, they would have to have a 134 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. driver's license and they would have to be in good standing to curb the violence that's been going out there, because at the end of the day, the towing rotation does not by itself curb the violence that's been going out there and all the nightmares that you hear. That's not the only solution.

At the suggestion of the industry, we intend to put in that requirement.

The operator's license?

Operator's license, yes.

Chairman addressed the issue of the $150 and how it appears, based on this testimony, that's an item that can be negotiated. You also mention you believe that storage fees -- talk more about storage fees.

Well, what happens in this bill, when me as a private tower and as part of the rotation, what I'm 135 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. going to have to do is tow the car back to the Parking Authority, which what they'll do is generate revenue actually from the storage fees and take away from me maybe even towing the car a second time. So basically the way the rotation sits right now, I go, I pick up a vehicle, I bring it back to my storage facility, I collect storage and I also get to tow the car a second time hopefully, not all the times, but that's revenue that's generated for small businesses. In this case, what happens is, you're just going to get a tow, which consumers are going to get penalized for additional $25 for. The Parking Authority is going to collect storage fees and they're going to generate money, and they are going to take away an avenue for me to tow the car a second time, and also put a hardship on the consumers by having to pay their parking tickets. You know, I believe that everybody should pay 136 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. their parking tickets, but maybe not when you just got into an accident and someone is in the hospital or you just came out the hospital. You know, that might not -- because paying the parking tickets at that time -- (Applause.)

Paying the Parking Authority, everybody says it's real easy, you go there and you pay your parking tickets, you make payment arrangements, but most people are going to lose a day of work, they don't have transportation to get there, they just got into an accident. There's a lot of things that are in between, a little gray area I would say.

Councilwoman, again, I understand the concern, but understand the activities we're trying to curtail with this. If it doesn't go back to the Parking Authority lot, the person on the scene who is owns the car can direct it anywhere they want. 137 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. They can direct it anywhere they want, and they can still tow it to their private lot, to a body shop of their choice. The problem is that in an accident -- and the witness has described the circumstances quite well, because you're disoriented, you're frustrated, you may be hurt -- what's been happening is that the tow truck operator will present the person with a consent form, which the person often signs. And no one should ever sign one of those consent forms, because once the consent form is signed, all of our regulations and rules are out the window. That tow truck operator, if he has an agreement with the body shop, can take it to the body shop, he can take it to his or her own impoundment lot. Some of the operators have the following processes: It gets to the body shop and if you go to the body shop as the owner and you don't want that body shop doing your work, he will gouge you, 138 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. because he wasn't getting the insurance work on your car. And this is some of the industry. If you're towed on a Saturday night at o'clock and you go to pick up 7 your car Sunday morning at 12:01, two-day 8 storage, not a 24-hour -- this would 9 require a 24-hour, $25 pay. Some of them 10 are not open 24/7. They're closed on a Sunday. They close at a certain time. The person has to pay the additional storage fee. The Parking Authority, it's 24/7, they take credit cards. Some operators refuse credit cards and want cash only, and we've been working on that problem. Look, I recognize that this is a hardship for -- going to be a hardship for some people, but I didn't -- this body did not put us here. It's the activities of some of the folks in the industry, too many frankly, that have decided that that automobile has a value. Whether it's a luxury Lexus or it's a car 139 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. that's ten years old, there's a value to those. There's the insurance repair value, there's the parts value. And I don't mind people getting value out of that, but not at the expense of consumers and not at the expense of the driving and walking public, because people are racing to catch these big tunas.

Now, on the issue of the consent form, in the way that Mr. Chairman just described it, is that your understanding as well?

Well, the way the current system is --

I need to narrow the question. On the issue of the consent form, is the way Mr. Chairman just described it, is that what happens?

No. Currently, with the City's rotation program -- I'm on the rotation tow program. Currently, if I get called to a rotation, right, I tow the --

I need to 140 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. ask you to hold up, because the question is not about rotation. I'm really interested in what is happening with that consumer at the scene of the accident specifically as it is related to the consent form. In your view, being a member of the industry, how do you handle the consent form?

Well, I don't think I understand the question. I'm sorry.

Okay. It's my understanding that procedure is that --

The procedure in which circumstance? They're in the rotation?

No, not regarding the rotation, but regards to the document or the form that you present to the person that's been in an accident that gives you, the tow operator, the legal right to then remove the car. Do you present a consent form?

Yes. 141 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

Is that uniform across the industry?

Yes. There are set rates right now. There's set rates, and basically the customer has the right to tow their vehicle wherever they want to tow their vehicle to.

But understand, Councilwoman, once you sign the form, there's no protection. If an accident victim decides they want their car to go to their brother-in-law's body shop or this gentleman's lot, they have the absolute right to do it, but once the consent form is signed, the flood gates open and the car goes to a body shop or it goes to a private lot and you have a much more difficult time getting it out than you do at a Parking Authority lot.

See, my interest --

Well, can I just say --

My 142 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. interest rests purely with one of the three factors of this wheel, points of this triangle. What is going to be in the best interest of the consumer, of the person whose car --

Are you saying the consent form is the same as the towing report?

No. 11

The towing agreement? (Someone talking from the audience.)

Excuse me. She can't pick up if you just yell from the audience. It has to be relayed. He's the witness.

When you're involved in an accident in Philadelphia, you're allowed to call your own tow to the scene. If you don't have a tow, currently the police officer can call a rotation tow.

Or the 143 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. third option is, members of the industry hear about it and they all scramble and race to the scene.

Yeah, there are some practices like that. I agree. Now -- and Councilman Rizzo's bill tried to address that issue.

Okay.

And he created a towing rotation, which created a uniform system to deal with issues like that. So currently on the towing rotation, if I get called to an accident scene, I offer the option to tow the vehicle whenever the customer wants to.

Okay.

If the customer is not there and they're in the hospital and they can't make that decision, then it comes back to my lot. I charge a set fee, which is already mandatory for me to charge. It's $150 to tow and $25 a day storage.

Okay. 144 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

There are already laws in place that address that issue. And when the customer comes to pick up the vehicle, of course we try to offer the service to have the vehicle towed a second time for him whenever -- if he's not present at the scene of the accident. This is going -- this bill is going to take that away from us. I hope I answered your question.

Yes. The clarity is very helpful.

Thank you.

Thank you for your testimony.

Thank you. Any other -- oh.

Any other questions for these witnesses?

I have one. I want to ask Jose Giral, what do you see has been the problem with our current rotation system and our 145 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. implementation?

I think it just -- they created it and they just let it run. They didn't address certain issues.

What are those issues? I think we need to be very specific about it.

I think what the Managing Director said is good, having the training for the police officers. I think that's an interesting point that he brought up.

How about in terms of Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller talked about whether the rotational system was being followed? Do you guys feel comfortable that the rotation was followed, that there was a mechanism for tracking that or not?

Well -- I'm sorry. What was that again?

The rotational, do you think it has been fair? We created these districts and 146 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. then we allowed people to apply. Was that implemented correctly?

Yeah. I think the application process was pretty fair. I think it was fair.

Okay. What other issues would you foresee -- other than the police training, what other things do you think we did not get right? One of the things that this proposal does is issue -- gives PPA the authority to inspect the trucks.

Currently, the Police Department does the inspections. I think they do a pretty good job by inspecting the vehicles. I don't think giving it to the Parking Authority is going to make any difference, because I don't think the problems are in the trucks themselves. That's the biggest issue. They think that -- I understand what the Councilman with the weight limits on certain trucks. I understand, but I don't think that's the problem. 147 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

But you do recognize there's some bad trucks out there?

Yeah, there are definitely some bad trucks.

But the bad trucks got licenses on them, and if the Police Department slapped a license on a bad truck, that's a problem with the inspection process.

You know, some of these trucks are actually legal in other states. That could be argued back and forth, because -- you might be saying that, but in other states, those trucks are actually legal. Over here you want to make them illegal, but in other states they are legal. They can get a registration, they can be licensed in other counties as tow trucks. But, like I said, that could be argued all day. I don't think that's the problem.

Thank you. 148 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC.

Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you, Councilman Kenney and the Rules Committee. I appreciate any solution, any resolution to the problems that we are experiencing. So, again, I thank you for your interest in this, but I do want to make sure that we do try to work with what we already have, and next Tuesday, October the 26th at 10:00 a.m., the Committee of the Whole, all members of City Council, will be meeting in this Chamber to try and repair the rotational towing system. And, again, if the Parking Authority is the answer to the solution, at this moment I don't think that that is the entire answer to the solution. I'm for whatever makes this better for the industry. (Applause.)

Better for, it was already stated, the consumer. So I think together we've got a 149 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. base to work with, that we should work very hard to make it effective before we go to the drastic step to hand this off to a state agency.

I agree. I agree with the Councilman. (Applause.)

Councilwoman Miller has a question.

Hi. I think what Councilwoman Sanchez was asking when she mentioned my name, my comment was I had heard that rotation was not fair, that some trucks or tow trucks were not being utilized. Just by show of hands, has rotation been fair? Have your companies been called? Can you just show your hands if it has not, if your company has not, if it has not been fair? (Some audience members raising hands.)

I think it hasn't been used properly, and that's what 150 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. happens. You know, people don't get called because they're not using the rotation the way they should.

What does that mean? Clarify that, "not used properly."

Basically the Police Department is not utilizing it the way they should utilize it.

What do you mean? I mean, if you have a list --

What happens is, when the police officer comes to the scene of the accident, if the customer doesn't have their own tow, they supposed to pick from the rotation list, and that's not happening. And if it is happening, it's happening very limited. So obviously if you have 96 companies and there's only one tow a week, obviously nobody is getting called. I get called 4 o'clock in the morning, 5 o'clock in the morning when nobody else picks up the phone. That's basically what's happening 151 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. out there.

So what you're saying then could be that every time there's an accident, the people involved, the owners of the vehicle, have their own company that they call?

A lot of times, yes.

I mean, I know you just used one call a week hypothetically. However, I'm just trying to figure out whether that rotation system is working.

It needs to be fixed.

All right.

Point of information.

Yes.

Point of information. Thank you. One of the problems, again being the author of this initial 152 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. legislation, the problem that we have -- and it's no disrespect to the Philadelphia Police Department or the Administration. You hit it right on the head. It wasn't managed properly.

Exactly.

If a police officer came to the scene of an accident and there was, quote, a wreck chaser at the scene, that made them happy and they said everything is fine here and left the scene of the accident and there was no 14 management. The rotational towing system was put into place to give everybody working in the City and amended it so it would in fact include everybody.

And not just people listening to the scanners, not even the guys wreck chasing, just the officers themselves not using the system. There are times that vehicles are just left in the middle of the street that could be called over rotation and they just don't do it. So I don't want to put blame on 153 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. people wreck chasing. It's about the officers themselves utilizing the system.

I understand that, but in fact the officer on the street being so very busy, when they saw a tow truck, that satisfied their need. They didn't care whether it was X, Y, Z. It was a tow truck that cleared the intersection and onto the next assignment. If it was done the way it was designed, one of you would have been dispatched to the scene of that accident and appropriately handled the situation.

And under this legislation, one of them will be dispatched by the Parking Authority and they won't have to worry about the police being overworked. Councilman Kelly.

Yeah.

There's other cities that have dealt with wreck chasing and all illegal practices, and they never used the Parking Authority. And I'd just 154 10/20/10 - RULES - BILL 100498, ETC. like to say that on the expressways, on 95 and on 76, the Parking Authority does the towing exclusively. They have cut us out of that business. We are completely out of that business. We can't even tow up there. What do you guys have to say about that?