COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, February 5, 2007, 11:00 a.m. - - - Bill No. 060618 - An ordinance amending Chapter 10-1200 of the Philadelphia Code entitled "Posting of Temporary Signs" by allowing signs to be posted on utility poles and streetlights, all under certain terms and conditions. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Daniel J. Savage, Chair Blondell Reynolds-Brown Jannie L. Blackwell Darrell L. Clarke Frank DiCicco Brian Kelly Juan Ramos V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Specialists 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2 WITNESS LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - Otis Haigler Jr. ....................... 6 Director of Legislative Affairs - David Perri, Chief Code Engineer........ 16 Lance Haver, Director of Consumer Affairs 23 City of Philadelphia CENTER CITY DISTRICT - Nick Maile, Counsel..................... 52 - Alyssa Feeder, Dir. of Communications... 52 John Fenton, University City District..... 62 Senior Director of Operations Russell Medden, Private Citizen........... 66 Mary Tracy, Director, SCRUB............... 72 Lynn McConville, Project Manager.......... 79 Pennsylvania Resources Gary Spawn, Private Citizen............... 91 3 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618
Good morning. The Committee on Licenses and Inspections is now in session. Will the clerk please read the bill for today.
An ordinance 8 amending Chapter 10-1200 of the Philadelphia Code entitled "Posting of Temporary Signs" by allowing signs to be posted on utility poles and streetlights, all under certain terms and conditions.
The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell, the sponsor of this bill.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. We sponsored this bill in order to allow responsible posting of public-interest signs. We believe that it is a First Amendment right that will allow in certain circumstances only those signs of public interest to be posted. No commercial signs, no "We 4 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 Want to Buy Your House" signs, no "We Can Help You With Predatory Lending" signs, no any of those things are permitted. And we tried to do it in a limited way to only ask for utility poles and street poles. Otherwise, the bill is intact. The Administration has added on one zillion other enforcement initiatives and rules and regulations. We're happy to support all of those. We have submitted two amendments. One amendment would exempt the 1st, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 10th districts as well as the area bounded by the north side of Vine Street, the Delaware River, the south side of South Street, and the Schuylkill River. And so we submit that in the interest of my colleagues. We also submit other amendments that the Administration has proposed, and we are hoping -- we are hopeful that 5 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 the committee will see fit to report out this bill. We want to work in cooperation with everyone. We believe that it is a First Amendment issue. We respect the rights of all of those whose people may feel differently about the issue, but we hope the committee will adopt the amendments and feel fit to report out the bill. Thank you very much.
You're welcome. I would like to recognize the quorum as present. Members of the Committee joining us today are Councilwoman Krajewski, Councilman Juan Ramos, Councilman Darryl Clarke, and Councilman Jack Kelly. We will now hear testimony on Bill No. 060618. Is there anyone here from the Administration to testify? (Witnesses come forward.)
Good 6 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 morning. Could you please identify yourself for the record.
Good day, Councilman Savage and members of the Committee. I am Otis Haigler, Jr., Director of Legislative Affairs for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Today I'm here to provide testimony on Bill 060618, which, if enacted, will allow the posting of signs on traffic lights and utility poles in the right-of-way. The unrestricted posting of posters or stickers on utility poles, street lights, trees, and other structures is a source of blight within the neighborhoods throughout our city. As introduced, Bill 060618 will remove the prohibition against the posting of signs on utility poles and street lights that now appears in the Philadelphia Code, Section 10-1202(a), and would impose no restriction going forward on signs that would be posted. 7 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 As you know, the current prohibition on signs placed on certain structures and trees in Section 5 10-1202(a) was enacted following a successful challenge to the constitutionality of several provisions in the Chapter 10-1200. Prior to its revision in 2005, changes in the chapter had authorized the posting of temporary signs under certain circumstances, but its provisions arguably were internally inconsistent and inconsistently enforced. The enactment and the blanket prohibition was an appropriate response at the time, and the Administration testified in support of it. To enforce Bill 060618, the Department of Licenses and Inspections is prepared to reinstitute the issuance of temporary signs, licenses, and stickers should it become law. There, however, must be constraints imposed on any exception to the prohibition in 8 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 order to minimize the likelihood of blight. I will be happy to answer any questions at this time. And also, for the record, I had heard about the proposed amendments, at least the carve-out amendments, and our position would be opposed to such amendments for carve-outs of any particular district. We feel that for enforceability, we would need to have the bill as intact to be enforced.
Would there be any policy or procedure for monitoring the takedown or cleanup of the signs if this does go through?
Currently, with the prohibition that we have in place, the ban allows us to remove signs and to invoice the persons who place the signs on the utility poles and to collect what the costs would be -- have been incurred on the City for the removal of the signs and also to impose a $75 CVN or ticket 9 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 for each sign that's posted. Under your current provisions, no, there's nothing in the current law that says that.
Okay. And how long would the signs be allowed to hang for?
Okay. Are there any other questions from members of the Committee?
Thank you. Isn't there a bill (inaudible - off mic) pay for a permit?
No, ma'am, Councilwoman. That bill was amended so that it would be an outright ban an all 10 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 signs. That was the previous bill to the bill that was enacted, I believe it was, in 2004 that placed a ban an all signs on utility poles, street lights, or any structure in the public right-of-way. Once that bill was amended, we really didn't have to worry about paying a certain fee for --
For the length of time to take it down; that's correct, ma'am.
Thank you. Mr. Haigler, you just mentioned that you wouldn't be for this bill if there were any exceptions to it; in other words, any district that was exempted from the provisions in this bill. And it would be very, very 11 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 difficult for your department to enforce any or to police it.
Okay. So if there are any exceptions to it, you would be against it.
And that is a matter of policy, I think of, the administration. As a matter of policy for the administration, they're opposed to carve-outs of basically most any ordinance that would be enacted; they feel that ordinances should be uniform and applied across the city.
Wasn't this bill -- wasn't there a bill years ago with this same type of provisions; in other words, you would have to -- a 12 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 candidate would have to get -- buy stickers and put it on the posters, and, of course, remove it ten days after the election, and then they could take the posters back and get reimbursed?
Well, um, it was a matter of, I guess, compliance, compliance with that ordinance, and I guess it really would speak for itself that if you drove around the city after the time period had expired, you may have saw -- seen signs still posted months, maybe even up to a year, after a certain time period where the poster has taken the sign down.
Okay. So in your opinion, it was moderately successful, or it wasn't at all?
I don't believe 13 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 it was really successful.
Okay. That's what I wanted to hear. I have another question too, and it has to do with public utility poles. Isn't a fact now that it's illegal to put anything on a public utility pole?
It's illegal presently to post any sign on any utility pole, streetlight, or any other structure in the public right-of-way.
So it would still be illegal even if we passed this bill?
No. This bill 22 will allow you to post signs on utility poles and streetlights, but it would prohibit signs on other structures in the public right-of-way. 14 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618
Yeah. I just wanted to know the rationale of having a bill -- well, having a previous bill which made it illegal for -- to put it on any public utility. In other words, I would like to hear from either the electric company or whatever to hear their side of it. There must be a reason why we -- why we find it -- you know, why it's illegal to put these posters on a public utility bill.
Utilities have always maintained opposition to the placement of signs on their structures for safety purposes -- safety purposes of the utility workers, especially where the signs were placed on there with nails or staples or something of that nature, where, if a utility worker were 15 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 to slip off the structure, they might harm themselves. So I think that was the main opposition from the utility companies, that it presented a safety concern for their workers.
So it would be safe to say, then, that the utility companies would be against anything which would permit posters on their signs.
Okay. But it seems like that's -- that would be the way they would go. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning. 16 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618
I think Councilman Kelly asked most of the questions I was about to ask. But do you have any statistics as to the number of violations that have been issued to folks who put the illegal posters up or illegal signs?
Yes, we do. Mr. Perri, the acting commissioner for the department, is with me today and has that information that he will provide.
Good morning, members of Council, my name is David Perri. I'm the chief code engineer for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. The statistics that we have are in year 2005: 3,871 posters were removed from 972 locations. Also in 2005, 119 code violation notices, which are basically tickets, were issued. In the year 2006, 3,323 signs were removed from 886 locations, and 349 17 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 code violation notices were issued.
Of those violations that have been issued, were we able to collect any of the fines?
I do not have statistics on what the collection rate was on the fines.
The fine collection is done by the Bureau of Administrative Adjudication, and it's outside of the Department of Licenses and Inspections.
Do you know whether your department was successful in identifying the individuals who had posted these signs? 'Cause we're not just talking about political posters. I mean, there are a lot of these signs that get put up and have an 888 number or some number, and I've tried calling those numbers. And generally, I get a voice mail. I 18 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 identify myself as to who I am, and I basically tell them on my own terms why they should take the signs down, but normally, it falls on deaf ears. And I was just curious as to whether or not we're able to track these people down at all.
We do make an attempt to track down the owner of the individual signs. Obviously, it's in our interests to know who that is so that we can issue code violations and otherwise get compensated for the cost of removing them. We do have problems identifying some of these sign owners. But in those cases, those would be the first signs to come down.
One other question. I guess it's more of a statement. How does one know that there is a prohibition on posting of signs in the City of Philadelphia? Other than the 19 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 fact that if they post it, then you -- if you're lucky or fortunate enough to find them, we can cite them or give them a warning. I mean, there's really no -- I don't know if most people understand that there's a prohibition in this city, and I wonder if we're doing anything the this in that area. The legitimate person who comes in to business, they'll come in, get a business license to do business, obviously, in the City of Philadelphia, and I'm sure that they would be made aware if certain types of advertisements are permitted or not permitted. It's these ad hoc companies that just, overnight you wake up and there's these signs for -- as Councilwoman Krajewski and I were talking about earlier -- "House for Sale" or "We Buy Houses for Cash," all those kinds of signs that just literally appear overnight. 20 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618
On the department's website, there is a link to a letter that goes to -- particularly to campaigns about the illegal posting of the signs, and it's also a link to a particular law that was enacted that bans signs in general. So if somebody were to go to the department's website, they would see that link right there, and they could click right on to that. Other than that, I would surmise that it would be something where there would have to be constant reeducation of the public as to what the requirements are. And if you see a situation where the -- you see an increase in the notices, that there is an increase in it, then there would have to be some sort of a publication and reeducation of the public.
What is the cost of a fine? Is it on a per-sign 21 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 basis?
And we don't have -- you have the numbers but you don't have them today of the amount of money that's collected based on the violations that were issued?
No, we don't. That's information that would be at the Bureau of Administrative Adjudication.
The Chair would like to recognize that Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds-Brown has 22 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 joined us. Mr. Haigler, since there are currently no provisions in this bill 5 concerning length of time, signs can hang or registration. Does the Administration have any recommendations on how to regulate these signs?
The amendments that I believe are being proposed do have some conditions, and one of the conditions would be that the signs would be removed within 90 days of obtaining the official departmental stamp. So 90 days from when the license is issued for placing the sign, the signs would have to be removed
Okay. Thank you. Are there any other questions from members of the Committee?
Yes. Mr. Chairman, if I may? 23 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618
I just received an e-mail from Ed McBride from PECO; I think he's on his way down here. He says in his e-mail: "It is illegal by state statute to place anything on utility poles that is not a part of the business." So there is a state statute as well, and Ed McBride is on his way down.
Thank you, Councilman. Are there any other questions from members of the Committee at this time? (No further questions.)
I would like to have Lance Haver. Thank you for your testimony.
Good 24 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 morning.
Good morning. Identify yourself for the record, please.
Sure. My name is Lance Haver. I'm the director of consumer affairs for the City of Philadelphia. I'm here to voice my support for allowing political candidates the right to post their campaign posters on poles during the election cycles. It seems strange to me that here in Philadelphia, the birth place of American democracy, that there are those that feel it is more important to keep posters off of poles than it is to allow for as much public discussion about elections as possible. I cannot understand why the signs of a vibrant democracy are not considered a public treasure but, instead, a public 25 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 nuisance. It is almost as if we have forgotten that elections are events to be proud of, that public discussion and civil debates are what have allowed us to grow as a country and come ever closer to reaching the promise of our founding fathers. I believe that if we want to foster a true democracy where challengers have access to the public and they're not overpowered by the power of incumbency to raise money or the very rich to buy an office, we must ensure low-cost ways for the challengers to campaign. If this bill is passed, it will provide challenging candidates with a low-cost opportunity to build their name recognition. It will take steps to level the playing field between the incumbents and challengers, the wealthy candidates and the candidates of working people. And that is what is best for 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 democracy and, therefore, best for our society and our city. Yes, the posters can become trash if they are left up for too long; they fall to the curb and are left there to rot. The solution to that problem is to require those who post the posters to remove them and clean up afterwards or pay to have that done. Stopping the posters from being posted is, as the old adage says, throwing the baby out with the bath water. I would urge Council to require a nominal fee to be paid for the rights to use the posters and require candidates who put their posters up to take them down after the election. I believe that 50 percent of the nominal fee should be set aside for the Mural Arts Program, with the request that additional murals be painted to remind us of the value of a vibrant democracy. In that way, Council can balance the 27 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 competing interests from which they will hear today. That concludes my testimony. I'd be happy to answer any questions. Thank you.
Thank you for your testimony. I would like to recognize Councilwoman Krajewski.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are you referring to all signs, like the signs that we see on the trees on the telly poles, "Cash for Homes"?
Well, how can you discriminate against one and not the other?
Well, I believe it's very clear. There's commercial 28 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 interests and there's public interests. And I believe we have the right, and should have the right, to discriminate. People who are trying to sell something are in a different category than people who are supporting a democracy and running for office. We do that with our mailings, we do that with campaign -- when people to choose to advertise on television. We have different rates for all of those things, and we should have different standards for political campaigns, whether it's an issue campaign or a candidate campaign, than we have for commercial speech.
Well, don't you feel that this is just a small rendition of billboards?
Well, I -- again, I'm not quite sure what you mean there, Councilwoman, so I'm not sure how to answer.
We 29 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 have laws against the billboards, but you feel that this should not be; is that right? With the posters?
Well, I think that people should have the right to put up posters during election cycles, yes. I don't think that would have anything to do with billboards.
Well, then that would also give the rights of different unions also to put up signs and vendors to put up signs. And we know and you know that they never take them down.
Right. Councilwoman, no, it not give the right to commercial interests to put up signs; yes, it would give the rights of people who are engaged in political discussion to put up signs. You know, there is a cost to running elections. No one complains about the cost of buying election machines, no one complains about the 30 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 cost of running the elections; that's part of the cost of democracy. Now, I believe that Council can do other things as well, like making the cable TV stations available to candidates so that people have an opportunity to hear what the issues are. But I am very fearful that if we continue to go in the direction where offices are bought and it's not a part of the public discussion and people don't know who's running that we will lose a vibrant part of our democracy.
Well, like in the case of elections, that's one of the reasons I think that when we have the process of committeemen and volunteers who knock on doors and get the word out about these candidates. You also have homes where they put the signs in their windows. We have businesses that will apply as well. How can you discriminate against the political system and not the 31 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 other vendors?
I believe we do that all the time. We have nonprofit rates, we have political rates, we have different laws for commercial interests than we have for nonprofits. I don't believe there's anything inappropriate about discriminating on the basis whether it's commercial speech or nonprofit speech.
So in short, you're saying it's all right for the political signs but not for the rest?
Thank you. 32 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 And thank you, Mr. Haver. I'm a supporter of most of the things that you've done for the city and the consumers. I do take exception to the fact that you're encouraging us, as lawmakers, to discriminate. I was not always an incumbent. I ran in 1995. I think I purchased 350 posters. I didn't put them on poles; I asked people to either put them in their windows or store fronts. I view posters as another form of visual pollution. And I've had some issues with Miss Tracy, who's here, on billboards and outdoor advertising over the years, and everyone knows my battles in that. And I'm not totally adverse against advertising, but I think there's an appropriate way in which it is done. I don't know of anyone who was ever elected to public office because of being able to be able to put posters on poles. We live in a much more modern 33 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 society where advertising is much more available and cheaper. My opponent sits at his desk at the Redevelopment Authority and on a daily basis blasts -- e-mail-blasts the entire constituency of the City of Philadelphia. More blogs go through that office than any poster could attempt to try to make him somewhat known throughout the political arena. I think when our founding fathers talked about freedom of speech, I mean, we didn't have cable TV, we didn't have radio; we had newspapers and we probably had kiosks or posting boards throughout the city where people would put up their little notices about things that were going on. This modern age that we're in certainly does not, in my opinion, hamper the ability for anyone, whether they have a large war chest or a not so large war chest, from getting their message out. I mean, it's an electronic 34 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 media we live in, and it's free in most cases. My legislative assistant reminds me -- thank God for technology -- that the courts have already ruled that you cannot distinguish between public interests and commercial posters; also that City Council has no control over cable TV. And I think that would be an admirable effort on the part of the part of the cable TV franchise folks to give us that time, but we can't force them to do that. So --
Yeah. In essence, I just -- I mean, I -- in a perfect world, what you have described may work, but it doesn't. If we're going to go out and say it's okay for us, as elected officials or aspiring elected officials, to post, how do we get the message to the person, as the 35 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 Councilwoman pointed out, who wants to put a sign up that says "Cash for Your Home" or "Used Cars Wanted"? How do they know that they're not allowed but we are? I mean, I think that is -- I think that's -- that's really an injustice that we put ourselves, as elected officials, above everybody else in the universe, to say we can post, we can create visual graffiti, we can allow these things to stay up because probably the success rate of collecting on the fines is probably minimal at best, but it's not okay for you, the average citizen, to go out and sell yourself or your product; it's only okay for people in public office. That's my opinion.
If I may respond just very quickly. First, I believe Council could use the public stations that Council hearings are often televised on. 36 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 Second, I recognize that many people consider the posters visual graffiti, but art is one of those strange things where I can walk by the Calder sculptures and wonder what I'm looking at and other people can see great beauty. I like the idea that people know there's elections. Maybe I'm a little weird -- some could argue people who like the Calder sculptures are a little weird -- but one of the things that makes the city vibrant is our density and our exchanges of ideas. I do agree with you we have to enforce the laws, we have to fine people who don't follow. And third, yes, we have all these advancing technologies, but we also have public space, and I think the public has a right to use it and know what's going on.
Well, again, I'm not an attorney, but my 37 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 understanding is the courts don't view utility poles as public space, and I could be wrong on that. I mean, what you're suggesting is a beauty contest. I mean, the better-looking candidate gets elected because you say something about beauty is in the eyes of the beholder or something like that, so -- I mean, I don't know. I'm not going to suggest that I'm better-looking than my opponent; that has nothing to do with it. I think I'm a better person.
You're trying to convince me to support this bill, I can see. But I don't know. I just -- there is so -- it is not -- elections 38 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 are expensive if you want to get up on cable and you want to do tons of mailing and a lot of other things; I'm fully aware of that. But there are very inexpensive ways in which you can get your message out. There are coalitions, there are advocacy groups all over this town. And there are issues out there today -- I mean, the casino issue is citywide. There are more groups than I can imagine, than I want to think of, that are out there fighting casinos, and every potential candidate has jumped on one of those trains, and they're getting their message out. So, again, I don't know what posters -- I remember we had this debate a number of years ago when David Cohen was here, the late David Cohen, and I happened to be out in Bucks County someplace -- I forget where I was. And I came into the City of Philadelphia and, no exaggeration, as 39 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 soon as I crossed the boundary between City Line Avenue or whatever avenue it is from Bucks County into Philadelphia, I knew I was in Philadelphia. You know how I knew? There were posters. And I believe it's either Councilman Clarke or Councilwoman Miller's district. It was in a political year. There were some lawn signs in Bucks County; there was not a poster on a pole anywhere, there was not any banner hung up but some lawn signs. As soon as I crossed the city limits, I knew I was home because every single utility pole from the far end of North Broad Street down to Center City was plastered with posters -- posters not for just one candidate but for multiple candidates. You can't even figure out who's running because everybody else is slapping their poster on somebody else's poster on somebody else's poster. I personally think that the 40 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 money that's spent on posters -- this is just Frank DiCicco's opinion -- you could probably do a mailing and get your message out a lot more appropriate than it is on a poster, because they're either tearing yours down, your opponent, or plastering theirs over yours, and there are so many candidates, as you're driving, it's almost virtually impossible to figure out who the hell is on there. And all it becomes is trash, in my opinion. And it winds up in the street eventually because no one's taking it down. And I really would much rather have our inspectors who work for L&I looking at dangerous buildings, inspecting properties that may have some issues that may be affecting quality of life than going around, figuring out how to take posters down. Just my opinion.
41 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 Mr. Chairman, may I?
Thank you. I'm happy to hear my colleague say that when he crossed city lines, he knew he was here by the posters, and that is what makes posters to me seem as much a part of Philadelphia as cheese steaks and Philadelphia pretzels. I think that's what makes -- part of what makes our city the exciting place it is. It generates excitement, it lets people know there's an election coming, and people come out to vote because they realize there is an election. So I see it as just the opposite. I understand -- you know, I respect your point of view but, you know, I believe that, you know, we see the -- I see the glass half full and you see it half empty. 42 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 I believe that if we enforce getting these signs down, people have a chance to know, people get a chance to vote, they know who's running. And I see it just the opposite. I think it's part of what makes our Philadelphia a great city and part of what, in a democratic process in a democratic country what, makes it wonderful. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
May I, Mr. Chairman? I'd like you to see what my aide and I were doing over the weekend -- taking some of these signs down. This is what we have to contend with throughout the district and throughout the city as well. And another one. (Councilwoman Krajewski displays signs and posters.) I mean, we had hundreds of them, believe me. 43 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 And I -- like I have to agree with Councilman DiCicco. I can't understand -- it would be illegal to discriminate against the political posters as to the posters that I'm showing you here today. And you're saying that you would okay this? I mean, you're fine with this; is that right?
Once again, Councilwoman, I believe those should not be allowed. I would point out that we have to continue to draw the distinction between commercial speech and public speech. And I know the courts have ruled but I will point out that the courts change their opinions. If people stopped trying, the Dred Scott decision would be the final decision on slavery in the United States. We must go forward, we must do the best we can to inform the public that, yes, we want a vibrant discussion 44 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 about ideas, but no, we do not want those signs that are in your district.
We can go on and on, Lance, but it's still illegal to discriminate against one as opposed to the other. There is no way you're going to be able to enforce that. And I -- I agree with Councilman DiCicco. It would be cheaper to do a mailing. Now, I've been in office for quite a few years, and I have yet to ever use the posters. I mean, it annoys me when I see posters that are nailed to trees, anywhere. Right outside my home, where I have a telly pole. I mean, you're never going to enforce it just for political reasons. And thank you.
The Chair would like to recognize Councilman Kelly. 45 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Haver, I just want to tell that you I don't think this bill is going to eliminate or reduce public discussion about candidates' views and viewpoints because what is -- what is on a poster for a candidate? Basically his name, the position he's running for, perhaps a lever number, and maybe a little slogan, but that's it. Most people have no idea what that candidate stands for unless that candidate, as Councilman DiCicco just mentioned, that he has the forum. He has civic association forums that he can attend. He could put advertisements in local papers as well the citywide papers. He has cable. He has the Internet. He has television. He has a lot of other things. In fact, most of the reporters and whatnot cover most these events, and they would put the candidates' 46 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 viewpoints in the papers. So there -- I don't think there's such a downplay on his or her viewpoints or opinions on what's going on because you can't understand where a candidate is coming from. For instance, if a candidate is pro-gun, against guns, is for reduced taxes or higher taxes, you have no idea unless that candidate does the old-fashioned thing: He goes door to door with some brochures. If he can't afford television or he can't afford newspapers, he can still get around. I don't think this is really that much. I think it is graffiti when you see hundreds of these posters. And it seems to me -- I know they had this thing before and, I don't think it worked then, and I don't think it's going to work now because most of the candidates that are running are not responsible. If they were as responsible as the sponsor of this bill, 47 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 Councilwoman Blackwell, I don't think I would have a problem with it, because I know she's responsible. She would take them down, as they should be taken down. But I don't think most of the candidates would fall into that, I really don't. I think they would just leave them up and it would just be graffiti all over the place. And I think that's one of the things that I would like to emphasize, that I don't think we're curtailing any discussion of any candidate's viewpoints at all.
I absolutely agree with you that there's very limited discussion on the posters, but what there is is information that there is another candidate, and that's simply something that the public sometimes doesn't know. 48 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 But I -- you're absolutely right: The posters don't tell anyone's positions; it's a name, a lever, maybe a party affiliation. But my intent was to suggest that those helps people know who's running and get the public to ask the next question.
The Chair would like to recognize Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds-Brown.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My thoughts are all over the place, and I'm going to try to put them in a way that adequately responds to a number of legitimate concerns that have been raised by my colleagues. First of all, I did not support this last measure when it came before us a couple of years ago, and I am one who -- who's benefitted from what's called candidate visibility when it comes to posters, and I am one who will applaud 49 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 the Managing Director's Office and the Department of Licenses and Inspections because do I know that they make calls to candidates once the election is over to remind us that our posters need to come down. This is what I -- this is -- there are two additional layers I would add to discussion. First of all, it's factual that persons -- adults -- children, like adults, learn differently. Some of us learn by seeing, some of us learn by hearing, and some of us learn by auditory, and there are six other different learning styles, so that is one, knowing that there is a segment of our population that does respond to visuals when it comes to being connected with what is happening in our broader community. And I would submit that there may be a cultural part of this debate as well, because there are certain segments 50 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 of our community who can't read or write and who do connect with the visual signs of candidates posted in appropriate places -- trees is not one of those appropriate places -- and do respond to candidate visibility when they see candidates on -- where those posters should be. So, yes, oftentimes posters only have the photo, the name, and the lever number, but typically, posters are -- the postering piece is a part of a broader campaign strategy. That's just one level, one layer, and one tactic that's used when candidates are trying to get the word out. So, you know, with all of that said, I do see a place for postering. Enforcement becomes essential by the various departments. And candidates have to indeed, as Councilman Kelly said, have to be responsible in ensuring that a part of their campaigning is making sure that the 51 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 posters come down once the election is over. So I need to go on record saying that I hear all of the very, very legitimate concerns that have been raised by my colleagues, but at the end of the day, for Blondell, I see value and candidate visibility and the purpose of posters as a part of that effort. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You're welcome. Are there any other questions from members of the Committee? (No further questions.)
Is there anyone here to testify on behalf of the Center City District? 52 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 (Witnesses come forward.)
Good morning. Could you please state your name for the record.
Good morning. I'm Nick Maile. I'm the counsel for the Center City District. And with me is Alyssa Feeder.
We had prepared an amendment which would exclude Center City from river to river, south of Vine Street from the changes originally proposed in the bill. We understand that the City has agreed with that amendment and it's incorporated into its amendment. Our basic purpose is to protect the commercial and tourist area from the signs that will proliferate throughout river to river and in the commercial district. And the Center City District has spent millions of dollars on 53 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 lighting and lamp posts to beautify the area, and we just think that this would be a negative, and we would ask that you support the city amendment, which would exempt the Center City area from any signs on the light posts or the utility poles.
And I might just add, as Nick said, we have spent over $44 million in capital funds over the years installing directional signs for motorists and pedestrians, decorative and, in some cases, historically accurate light poles, street furniture, and other kinds of landscaping. The City of Philadelphia and parties it has contracted with has installed new transit shelters, bicycle racks, and benches throughout the downtown. The clean and orderly appearance of the downtown is essential to the downtown in order to retain and attract businesses, visitors, and 54 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 residents. Therefore, the Center City District strongly urges that the posting of all temporary signs, regardless of content, be prohibited on all utility poles and streetlights in Center City.
Okay. Thank you for your testimony. I'd like to recognize Councilman Kelly.
Mr. Maile, I just want to know, what are the boundaries again?
The Chair would like to recognize Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds-Brown. 55 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 The Chair would like to recognize Councilman Clarke.
If I had to look at that poster, you would get my vote, Blondie. Absolutely. (Laughter.)
Hey, it's not a bad thing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning. Mr. Maile, you mentioned earlier in your testimony that the Center City District had prepared an amendment for this bill? Have you shared that with the District Council members representing the targeted area prior to the hearing?
We shared it with the committee chair and with the prime sponsor, and then we circulated it on the desk. We didn't circulate it as much as we should have. We didn't do it till like Thursday afternoon or Friday. So 56 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 we didn't get you, but we apologize for that.
All right. I just think it's probably appropriate that if you're going to recommend an amendment for a particular Council District -- or, in this case, districts -- it would be prudent to circulate it to the District Councilpeople. Had you had any discussion with any of the affected community organizations or any dialogue about your amendment?
No. We talked to the Center City District folks and we talked with Councilwoman Blackwell, and I believe I spoke to Council President Verna also. But no, no community groups, no. 23
Councilman Clarke does represent a substantial portion of Center City.
Just for the record, Councilman Clarke, that conversation took place this morning as well.
Can anyone 58 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 tell me what the costs are that are associated with removing posters, adhesive posters, stickers, or regular posters that are wrapped? Anyone have any idea as to what the cost is on an annual base?
I don't have a precise figure for you but, I can tell you that, as you know, it's not just a matter of removing the posters, but very often, it's a matter of repainting and repairing. So I think in the years that 15 the Center City District's been in operation, I can confidently say that it's been in the millions.
Yeah, I'm aware of that, and I guess for me it's disheartening when we see, in this case, the Center City Special Services District, who spent millions, millions of dollars on pedestrian lighting not only for safety purposes but also for aesthetic value. The streets look 59 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 greater, the fixtures look very attractive, and then someone comes along and decides to put posters up, which obviously, again in my mind, in my opinion, it's visual graffiti, but it also does some physical damage to the pole or to the fixture. And the City does that. I mean, the Avenue of the Arts from Market Street south to Washington Avenue, the City spent millions of dollars on streetscape improvements, and we're still working on making those improvements better. And I believe at the northern end, the Avenue of the Arts North in Councilman Clarke's district, similar improvements have been made, or will be made shortly where taxpayers will spend millions of dollars of taxpayers' dollars will be spent to improve not only, again, the lighting to make it safer but also the visual appearance. And only to then allow someone 60 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 to come along and deface, in my opinion, that very aesthetical value makes no 4 sense, because now the taxpayer has to then pay for the removal, pay for the repair of it. In most cases, the tape does peel the paint away with it. They're doing it now in my district. It's too cold this week, but they started last week on South Broad Street, from Washington Avenue to Oregon, removing stickers from either political posters, commercial posters, or union people who are running for union offices, and all that paint begins to peel and taxpayers have to foot the bill to then go out and repaint those poles. I just -- I don't know. I guess I've been battling this for about 11 years, this same issue. I still can't figure out what the debate is, but that's what democracy is all about, I guess. Thank you. 61 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618
Thank you, Councilman. Is there any other questions from members of the Committee? (No further questions.)
Is John Fenton here to testify today? (Witness comes forward.)
Mr. Chairman, just for the record, if I may, just to follow up on that statement I made. In the Center City Special Services District, the pedestrian lights that were installed were paid for by the property owners, so this is a private entity that did something to enhance the quality of life in Center City for everyone to enjoy, the aesthetical value, as I said, and the safety value. 62 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 So, I mean, if those folks are saying to us, "We don't want these posters," I think we owe them because they're taxpayers who are being doubly taxed because they pay an additional real-estate tax over and above their property tax to the Special Services District. This is something that a limited number of taxpayers paid for, but generally, the taxpayers in the City of Philadelphia didn't even paid for these light fixtures to be installed; property owners paid for it. So, I mean, where are their rights? I think we need to protect their right as well. Thank you.
Thank you, Councilman. All right. Could you please identify yourself for the record.
Yeah. My name is John Fenton. I'm the senior director of 63 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 operations manager for the University City District.
Okay. I would like to thank the Councilwoman's office and the Licenses and Inspections Committee for allowing me to speak in reaction to the proposed ordinance to amend Chapter 10-1200 of the Code, entitled "Posting of Temporary Signs by Allowing Signs to be Posted on Utility Poles and Streetlights." My name is John Fenton and I am the senior director of operations for University City District. The University City District is a special services district that provides clean and safe services in a 2.2-square mile area in West Philadelphia. A major part of our job is to provide cleaning services to keep the area liter- and graffiti-free. We have expend considerable time and resources 64 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 taking down old posters and signs that litter the poles throughout the district. There has been considerable popular reaction against sign littering in the community, and people have complained about it vigorously in the past about the issue. If the posting of temporary signs cannot be effectively controlled by the city, the burden and extra costs of dealing with the problem will fall on the University City District. If the posting of temporary signs is permitted, we can anticipate getting many complaints from businesses, homeowners, and institutions that the area is getting increasingly inundated with blighting signs and posters. Having to attend to the problem as it is increases will take away from resources from other work that we do and decrease our effectiveness at keeping the area clean and safe. 65 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 We respectfully ask that the committee consider this aspect of the problem in your deliberations. Thank you for your consideration.
Thank you for your testimony. Is there any questions come members of the Committee? (No questions.)
The Chair would like to recognize Ed McBride from PECO. Do you have any testimony? You have nothing to say at this time?
Okay. Is Russell Medden here to testify? (Witness comes forward.)
Good 66 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 morning.
Good morning. My name is Russell Medden. And about ten years ago, I was selected to be on the City's Anti- Graffiti Task Force. I was one of the one of the only community people -- one of two community people put onto this task force. And within the first three meetings that we had, one of the first things we decided is not only did the City have a problem with the graffiti, but the City had a problem with illegal posting. And there was very little difference between what was being put on -- graffiti being put on, sprayed on to a light pole as a poster being put on to a light pole. And, unfortunately, we do know that, as our Councilwoman Krajewski showed us -- I'm sure all of you on the way in to work today saw these posters. Now, also, with Mr. Lance 67 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 Haver, I understand that he would very much like to have a place where people can put their political posters up, but the unfortunate thing about using light posts and utility pole for any kind of posters is if one person can do it, somebody else is going to think they can. It makes no difference, no 11 matter what it is, whether it's commercial, non-commercial, whether it's for a nice public service or not. And, unfortunately, we all know human nature. Let's say we're invited to a party and you're asked to come to that party and help set it up, and you're more than happy to do that. But let me tell you something: Most of us are one of the first ones to leave, and not there to clean up. So no matter who put these posters up and whether they're told they have to take them down after 30 days, as the law says now, they don't do it. 68 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 And it's not just people running for political office in the City. I think Councilman DiCicco alluded to this. I mean, we all know, or supposedly have been told, that Jimmy Hoffa is someplace in concrete someplace in Detroit. But if you go down Oregon Avenue, if you go along the Schuylkill Expressway, if you go across Spring Garden Street you see Jimmy Hoffa poster stickers on all of the light posts. Wait a minute. They don't take 'em down. Don't like Jimmy Hoffa? How about Coryell? His poster stickers are everywhere on all the poles too. Unfortunately, we live in a city where the agency that is involved in making sure that this type of visual graffiti, as it's being called, is taken care of just doesn't have the resources to do it. No matter how many phone calls you make -- and I will tell you, I 69 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 have made those phone calls too -- nobody ever comes to take down their posters. The people in their community had to take down thee posters. The Councilwoman took down posters. That's a shame. The other thing is, I have been taking down posters for ten years. It's not fun. As I told Councilman Clarke when I walked in today -- and the reason I'm here is, two years ago, I took down the last "Gola for Mayor" poster in my neighborhoods. I don't even remember Gola, okay? So they don't come down. Once they do come off, you have this horrible residue that's left on light poles. Horrible. It doesn't come off; it just collects dirt. There is no way to allow any type of postering, temporary or not, on City property. Back to Mr. McBride from PECO. Those poles belong to PECO. You're going to let somebody put something on 70 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 somebody else's property? Wait a minute. Would you like someone to put a poster, without you giving permission, on your house? I don't think so. Lastly, instead of being here to say no, no, no, let's think of a way that we can say yes. In many cities in Europe, the large advertising firms, such as Clear Channel -- and they are in Europe -- and JC Dessau are now putting up flat-panel displays on blocks in streets in cities. And what they do is, they sell the space on this flat-panel display. Therefore, "Buy Your House, 1-800-BUY-HOUSE" can buy space on it.
And believe me, they can be asked if they put up these -- and we're asking that the advertising firms do this at their experience, not at City expense. Give a percentage of the advertising revenue that they make from these flat-panel displays back to the City of Philadelphia. 71 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 Why should we be paying to take somebody else's problems down when maybe we can get somebody to pay us for letting posters be there or advertising be there? We can also stipulate to these advertising firms that put up these displays that a certain amount of time must be given to political candidates, community groups, City endeavors, so that not only do you see "Buy A House -- "We'll Buy Your House," but you will also see there's a wonderful event such as Odunde on South Street all over town. Here's an opportunity to take a bill that Councilwoman Blackwell has introduced to maybe make political posters a little more amenable but actually as a way to think about making more funds for our city, which we all know we need very much. I thank you very, very much for your time.
Thank you 72 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 for your testimony. Are there any questions from members of the Committee? (No questions.)
Thank you for your testimony. Is Mary Tracy from the Center City District here to testify? (Witnesses come forward.)
Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee and other members of Council. I thank you for the opportunity to testify today. And I am the director of SCRUB, the Society Created to Reduce Urban Blight. It's a citywide organization whose mission is to ensure that all communities, regardless of income, ethnicity or location, benefit from laws protecting Philadelphia's visual 73 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 environment and quality of life. We were founded in 1990 as a grassroots coalition to secure passage of sign-control laws, and we've been working with the community groups for over years to improve the visual 8 environment and quality of life. 9 I am here today to express 10 grave concerns regarding Bill 060618. 11 It may have a negative impact on 12 neighborhoods across the City by 13 removing the City's ability to regulate 14 the proliferation of outdoor advertising 15 on utility poles and streetlights in 16 Philadelphia. 17 We believe that the legislation would not be a positive step in creating a more attractive and liveable city, which is a critical factor in establishing Philadelphia as a world-class city welcoming new residents, businesses, and tourists. The charm and appearance of commercial districts plays an important 74 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 part in a community's image, and a key element of that is signage. Signs say a lot about a place. All too often, a community's image is blighted by signs that are too large, too tall, too numerous, or poorly located. A proliferation of signs create visual clutter that detracts from the unique character and beauty of a place. Bill 060618 did fail -- I just actually received the amendments, and so I have not had more than a minute to take a look at them, but, you know, the bill that we looked at before failed to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial signs; nor did it specify the size or the length of time that it could be posted, and it didn't put penalties for if there was failure to remove. It would seem to me that this new -- just with a quick glance -- may address some of those things, but I 75 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 would -- I would ask that the committee table passage of this bill until we can take a closer look at it because, you know, any kind of laws regulating signage are open to constitutional challenges. And I've -- I know Councilman Kelly, I think you raised some very excellent questions about what happened the last time when we put fees on, and I think those were challenged constitutionally and thrown out. And I think, although we're really interested in, you know, Lance Haver's concerns, I think we want to be able to make new candidates, and even the current ones, have the opportunity to let people know that they're running for office. And I do think, though, even just by looking at the growing list of Councilmatic districts that don't want this in their district, I think there's a real strong message there. And I live 76 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 in the 4th Councilmatic district, and we have a new Councilperson who's representing us, and our district is not on that list. And I don't know that the Councilwoman has even been approached because most people in my district haven't even had an opportunity to convey those serious concerns. Having lived in Overbrook Farms for almost 30 years, I know this is a serious issue. And while they can, you know, understand the posting of political posters for a very short period of time, I have heard many people grumble about those posters failing to come down and then going out and pulling them out themselves. So I think, you know, this is a difficult issue, and I think it does go to the heart of democracy and what we want -- you know, what we want in our city, but I think we always have to look at what is the long-term impact.
And if that long-term impact is going to be a 77 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 continual proliferation, I mean, let's face it, just read what happened in Boston. You know, our public spaces are just being inundated with commercial messages. There is no place that is not being looked at as a potential place to put advertising. And I think that as our law makers, we really ask that you take a long, hard look at this because it does have such negative long-term impact on our neighborhoods and on our city. And I -- I can't help but comment on the numbers that the L&I spoke about, you know, the 3,871 posters and that only 119 actually received tickets. And, of course, they tripled that the following year. Out of 3,323, 349 tickets were issued. But we receive calls every week, and I'm sure many Council districts do too, especial Councilwoman Krajewski. You know, the Roosevelt Boulevard is full of signs; you know, 78 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 how do we take them down. We have members of SCRUB that go out on a weekly basis and remove signs and then send a copy of the law. So, you know, as a citizen -- you know, Philadelphia citizens are very much affected by the signage problems that we have in the City, and we look to this department and to this committee to maybe take a look at how we can address this better. Because, you know, $75 per sign for illegally signs, I mean, that could be a lot of money, but it has to be enforced, and it has to be enforced equally. We can't take down some signs and not others; that's when you get in trouble with the Constitution. So, you know, I really cannot comment on this new amendment because I haven't given it a fair reading, so I would ask that you would hold off. And, you know, I would be glad to do that. But I really am worried that 79 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 those citizens who actually remove these signs could actually be put in a place where they're breaking the law rather than those who are putting up the illegal signs. And I would like to introduce you to Lynn McConville who works very closely with SCRUB. She's actually with the Pennsylvania Resources Council, and she works on this issue on a regional basis, and I think she's got some very important information to share with you. Thank you for your time.
Thank you for your testimony. Are there any questions from members of the committee? (No questions.)
Good morning. MS. McCONVILLE: Good morning. My name is Lynn McConville. I'm a of citizen of Philadelphia. I'm also project manager for Pennsylvania 80 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 Resources Council. We've worked for years on issues of roadside beautification in Philadelphia. I work with Mary Tracy and SCRUB on issues of signage and billboards. I know there had been some talk about the state statutes that are relevant. I have a couple copies of the two relevant statutes, if anybody was interested. Basically, the right-of-way restrictions along state highways. For practical purposes, no signage is to be put on the right-of-ways along state highways. That includes state highways in the City of Philadelphia. On a practical standpoint, you've all seen the signs along the state highways statewide during times of the elections. Even though politicians and political campaigns are supposed to get written permission to put the signs up, from a practical standpoint, what PennDOT does is, suspend their 81 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 enforcement on sign removal for three weeks prior to the election period. So the restriction is still on the books. They just do an administrative decision to suspend enforcement during the period of time prior to the elections. The other part of the Pennsylvania Code is the placement on utility poles, and that basically goes to driving nails, attaching with metal or hard objects on any pole or on any utility pole on any roadway, not just state highways. I took a quick look at the proposed amendments, and a lot of these issues are addressed with the changed ordinance with these amendments. I think I would second what Mary has suggested with SCRUB is that perhaps the committee take a minute and allow everyone to look at the proposed changes. I think a lot of them address some of the problems, and there's a potential that it could work with what 82 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 has been proposed. It's very important that there be distinction between commercial and non-commercial signage. You can regulate them differently. That's gone through the state's -- or that's gone through the Supreme Court. They recognize the difference between commercial speech and non-commercial speech. The question is, whether from a practical standpoint, it's something that L&I can easily enforce. Does it become an issue when you have code enforcement officers who have to go out and try to make a decision as to what's a commercial speech and what's a non-commercial speech. Most municipalities just ban it altogether on public properties so that their code enforcement officers are not having to try and make this decision in the field. The City is currently putting 83 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 out a request for proposal for street furniture, which is the advertisements on the bus signs, trash cans, that type of thing. One of the reasons those signs in those areas are valuable to the advertising companies and why they're willing to pay top dollar for those locations is because it allows them to put advertisements in areas where they would not normally be allowed such as residential areas, some of our commercial areas. If this proposal goes through and there isn't a restriction on commercial signage, that RFP is almost void, because why would you pay top dollar for the right to advertise on a city trash can if you can put it up for free on a city telephone pole or street sign. So it might have an impact on what people would be willing to pay for the right to advertise on street 84 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 furniture, and that's something that we might need to be concerned about. I think some of my concerns are similar to what had been expressed before. The issue of self-adhesive stickers once you try and take them off. And I tried to take one off recently for a Santorum sticker that's just outside my house.
Obviously, that election is over, but I can't remove it without stripping all of the paint off the lamp post. So it becomes an issue of do we to then have to repaint our posts on a regular basis. It's very important that signage, non-commercial free-speech signage, be provided for in a public venue. In my neighborhood, my local park, Clark Park, has just put up a public information kiosk that allows people to post small signs in the park. This is one venue that could be looked 85 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 at for posting of -- responsible posting of responsible public-service messages on city property. I think it's very important that we look at this so that we can allow the posting of public-service messages in a responsible way. There are certainly ways it can be done. It's not an insurmountable problem. It does have to be done very carefully because of the free-speech issues and because of the maintenance issues in public property. I think the proposed amendments go a long way towards solving some of these problems, but I think it would be good if we could take a closer look at them. I'd also suggest that they be provided to the local chapter of the ACLU -- they're very familiar with some of the free-speech issues involved in signage -- and also Licenses and Inspections and some other Streets 86 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 Department take a look at them and think about them from a public maintenance standpoint. Thank you very much for allowing me to speak.
Thank you for your testimony. Are there any other questions from members of the committee? I would like to recognize Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds-Brown. Councilwoman?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your elaboration on the Coordinated Street Furniture Program, which is new to me, which, I'm sure, it's not new to your organization. Speak a bit more about this, the status or an update on the RFP. It's already been released and it's now in the pipeline where organizations are responding?
That's correct. 87 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 And it actually came as a surprise to us because the last time that we addressed it was before Council, and we were looking at various -- I think that was perhaps a Council session that Councilman DiCicco was chairing. And we just found out that an RFP has been released, and it's not as specific -- it has to do with the public toilet but their opening up of kiosks and park benches, newsstands, trash cans.
What else? MS. McCONVILLE: I don't know all of the -- it's a number of venues that they itemize. We could send a copy over.
Is this, new this Coordinated Street Furniture Program?
Well, it's fairly new and it really has -- one of -- we 88 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 are very concerned about it because the input seems to be throwing it out to the commercial vendors and come back to us with ideas rather than the public saying, you know, Here are the areas where we think it could work, you know, but not here, don't even think about that. You know, certainly the shelters for buses, we've had that, but I think this particular RFP calls for an increase of over a hundred new ones.
And I think there are also some legal issues that we had addressed at that hearing regarding putting commercial advertising in the public space without permission of the 89 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 property owners. And there are some court cases out there. So I think the Managing Director's Office --
And Public Property. So it's on the website, this RFP, and we've looked at it fairly closely, but we're not really sure where it is in the process.
But I can find that out for you. 90 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618
Thank you. If I may, I guess it's been two years now. We met with Councilman Ramos about trying to do trash cans and advertise like University City District and various other aspects positive about our community. We had contacted (indiscernible) and other stores. So, you know, I think that when done well, there is some place for this. We just have to do it in a positive way. We didn't get that worked out because there was an issue about who paid for what, who picks up the trash, and other issues involved. But, you know, the whole issue of advertising, whether it be public or 91 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 commercial, is an important issue for our city. And we believe in some areas it works, and obviously, in some areas it doesn't. Thank you.
Thank you. Is there any other questions from members of the members of the committee? (No further questions.)
Good morning. My name is Gary Spawn. I live on South 17th Street just south of South Street. I thank the committee for the opportunity to make some brief observations. 92 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 I live as I said just south of South Street, so just outside that area, that would be the borderline between the haves and the have-nots of the signs if that proposal were approved. I'd like to point out that I do think that making the distinction between commercial and non-commercial signs is an important part of this discussion. And I do believe that if we extrapolate the provisions in the Philadelphia zoning code for prohibiting non-accessory signs, transferring that concept to what can happen on light poles and telephone poles, non-accessory commercial signs don't belong anyplace except for where the place of business is. But also, I'd like to point out that in the areas of the City that have been most vocal about we don't want these signs -- namely -- specifically, I'm thinking of the Center City District. The Center City District is 93 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 also in the area where most of the telephone poles have been removed, and those utilities are underground, so the very same border -- Vine Street to South Street, river to river -- once you go outside of those districts, you find a lot more opportunities to post things on telephone poles. So I was walking up Bainbridge Street, and for a four-block area, the identical two signs were posted on every single telephone pole. The disproportionate effect of this proposal has a disproportionately blighting effect, in my opinion, on our more blighted neighborhoods. It allows a lot more blight in the areas where we need the most help fighting it. Thank you.
Thank you. Is there any questions from members of the committee? (No questions.)
If there's 94 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 nobody else here to testify, this will conclude our public hearing. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, can I ask the Administration -- particularly L&I, and I don't know if Law's here. I just had one question about some of the types of posters. Mr. Haigler? (Messieurs Haigler and Perri return to the witness table.)
Mr. Haigler, just very briefly, during, I guess, CD or album releases -- I guess they don't call them albums anymore; I guess that's an old person's term. 95 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618
They still call them albums? During the release of these types of albums, CDs, I notice that throughout the City, there's the plastering of these very large posters throughout the City traditionally on major thoroughfares. I see it along Broad Street, and they plaster them up and down the pole. And I've actually seen the gentleman walking down the street with a ladder. It's quite a science. I mean, one guy carries the ladder, the other guy carries the posters. He's throws the ladder up, the guy scoots up the posters, plasters them all the way up. And I've actually stopped to look and see if there's any disclaimers on those. Is there any way legally we can hold the artists responsible, although there may not be any reference to the 96 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 printer of the poster but the artist's name on the poster? What's the legal --
I'm not an attorney, Councilman, but I would -- my personal view would be that if you can identify who the responsible party is for the sign -- and that could possibly be anybody that's linked to the sign -- that person probably can be held comfortable for the accountable for the sign.
And then they would probably have to disclose some information to get themselves out of, I guess, the liability for the violation. They probably would have to disclose possibly who placed the sign specifically on the pole, if it was an advertising company or something that worked, I guess, outside of -- worked not necessarily for the artist but some sort of advertising company that the 97 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 record company --
But they actually don't have anything other than the name of the album, the name of the artist, and sometimes more -- actually, more often than not, the name of the release date. There's nothing --
More than likely, it's probably the record company that probably sponsored it.
All right. And, you know, I understand you're not an attorney. Can you check with Law to find out the legal ability of the City of Philadelphia to go after the artist?
Yeah, 'cause I don't -- you know, these things are like huge and they plaster them up, and they just indiscriminately go through the neighborhoods. And I think because there's no many name down at the bottom, similar to Councilwoman 98 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618 Krajewski's signs that actually have the phone numbers and the address of the advertiser or the company. Or in the case of political posters, it's clearly known who that elected official is, and there's usually a disclaimer down at the bottom 'cause we put that union bug and everything else down there. Can you track that down for me, please? 'Cause I really -- I really --
Or we will get back to the Chair and the Chair can give it to you, or we can call you directly.
Thank you, Mr. Haigler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are now requesting a two-minute recess. 99 2/5/07 LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 060618
The committee is now in session. If there are no other people here to testify, this will conclude the public hearing for the L&I committee. * * * 100 2/5/07 L&I PUBLIC MEETING - BILL 060618
We will now move into our public meeting. The Chair now recognizes Councilwoman Krajewski for an amendment on Bill 060618.
Thank you. Councilman, the -- I offer an amendment to Bill 060618. The amendment is to exclude the following districts: The 1st, the 2nd, the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th all for that amendment.
Will the amendment be adopted? All in favor will say aye?
All in favor -- you said -- all in favor, say aye? Nays?
I'd like to 101 2/5/07 L&I PUBLIC MEETING - BILL 060618 recognize Councilwoman Krajewski for another amendment on Bill 060618.
Thank you. I'd like to offer another amendment including, but not limited to, banners, pennants, placards and stickers, advertisement flags, and plaques.
Will the amendment be adopted. All in favor, say aye? Nays?
The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Krajewski for a motion on Bill No. 060618.
I move that Bill 060618 be adopted, as amended, for first reading in our next session of Council. (Motion seconded.)
All in favor, say aye. 102 2/5/07 L&I PUBLIC MEETING - BILL 060618 Nays?
This concludes our public meeting and ends our Committee of Licenses and Inspections.
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to go on record as voting no against this bill and any amendments to it for the simple reason that any amendments to this bill, or exclusions, if you want to call them that, would not be enforced by the Department of Licenses and Inspections. That's the problem that I have with this bill, that there would be no 24 enforcement whatsoever if we exclude any district within the City guidelines, and 103 2/5/07 L&I PUBLIC MEETING - BILL 060618 that's why I'd be voting no against this bill and any amendments to it. Thank you.
But this bill will also be held for the floor so the members of Council could have that option vote on this bill one way or the other, Mr. Kelly. Thank you.
Thank you. This concludes the public meeting on the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. Good afternoon. * * * 104 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings of the City of Philadelphia Council Committee on Licenses and Inspections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me on Monday February 5, 2007, and that this is a true and correct statement of same. __________________________________ JOSEPHINE CARDILLO Registered Professional Reporter (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)