COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:35 a.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY, CHAIR COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILMAN DANIEL SAVAGE BILL 070671 - An ordinance enacting a new Chapter 9-3200 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Shipping and Packaging Waste Reduction Ordinance"... BILL 070672 - An ordinance enacting a new Chapter 9-3100 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Food Service Waste Reduction Ordinance"... BILL 070691 - An ordinance amending Chapter 9-600 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Electric Vehicle Parking"... BILL 070788 - An ordinance enacting a new Section 12-1131 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Electric Vehicle Parking"... V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. The Committee on the Environment has a quorum, with members Rizzo, Blondell Reynolds Brown and Chairman Kenney. The first bill we will be considering today is 070788, an ordinance 9 enacting a new Section 12-1131 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Electric Vehicle Parking," to provide for the designation of electric vehicle on-street parking spaces where only electric vehicles may be parked and amending Section 12-2809 of The Philadelphia Code to provide for penalties for illegally parking in a designated electric vehicle parking space; all under certain terms and conditions. Mr. Dickson, please. Good morning.
Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee. I have written testimony. I'm Richard Dickson, Senior Director of Strategic 3 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Planning and Administration for the Parking Authority. Under this bill, the Parking Authority is tasked with providing certain functions for the implementation of the legislation. It requires that after the Streets Department has granted a permit for the installation of electrical connection at the curb, the Authority would then review the application for the ability to have the zone installed for traffic conditions and other considerations. This is exactly the function that we do in terms of processing applications for reserved spaces for people with disabilities. We've done that for the last 20-some years without any problem. I think this bill addresses a significant problem in terms of people in cities being able to have electric cars, which are different than those people in the suburbs. The suburbs, you can drive 4 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. into a driveway, connect to your home and have the vehicle charged. In the City, most people don't have those opportunities. So this provides an opportunity for people who wish to have electric vehicles to do them in an environment where there are not direct access to garages and driveways. So the Authority has no problem with the assignments that were given it under this legislation and would recommend favorable consideration of the bill.
Mr. Dickson, how will you and who will set the rates for the energy that you charge for people to charge their electric vehicles?
We have no 22 control over that. The electricity, I would assume, would be under a permit issued by the Streets Department to connect -- to have a connection at the 5 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. curb that would connect to their home electricity.
And the installation and maintenance of that would be at the cost of the homeowner.
Right. That's not part of our responsibility there. That's a Streets Department function that would grant the permit to do that.
I think that's a significant obstacle, because that could be very, very expensive, that type of an installation. So I think we need to address that during this hearing today.
I guess if you compare it to the money you save in gas, I would expect that the people making the purchase of the electric vehicle are interested themselves in installing it, similar to what you do in a newsstand when you get permission to electrify a newsstand, the Streets 6 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Department gives that permission and it's installed and inspected, and then the Parking Authority's function would be to simply enforce the parking regulation.
Well, under the bill, we would also process applications for the installation of the zone, and that would be done consistent with traffic regulations that would permit it there, whether or not the person had other options such as a driveway or a garage where they could have a more efficient connection, but those issues that you raise would not be under our area as outlined in this bill.
Thank you, but we will need to address that part of the process. Thanks.
Thank you very much. Good morning. 7 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
Essentially you're saying that the Philadelphia Parking Authority will not be principally responsible for the installation of the equipment to accommodate the vehicle, correct?
We would not be involved in that at all. Our responsibility would be only for reviewing the applications and determining that it's appropriate under traffic regulations and whether it is the most efficient place to put it; for example, if they have a garage or a driveway that would be more appropriate.
And the support by the Parking Authority is done so because? Complete the sentence for me.
Because this is consistent with what we do in other situations, such as reviewing applications for reserved parking for 8 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. people with disabilities, loading zone applications. In terms of the operational requirements of having a zone installed, we can fulfill that function under this legislation consistent with what we do in other areas.
Thank you very much. Tim McDonald, John McDonald, Linda Smith and Ted Singer, please. Please, whoever is going to start, identify yourself for the record and proceed. MR. DiRUSSO: My name is Gavin DiRusso.
Please proceed. MR. DiRUSSO: We're here obviously to represent the electric car parking. I just feel that it will be really beneficial for carbon footprints 9 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. for the Philadelphia residents. As you know, gas vehicles put up a large amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. So for an electric car to hit Philadelphia, I feel that it will be very beneficial. It will reduce carbon footprint, be very beneficial in that way.
Okay. Thank you. Whoever is next, identify yourself for the record.
My name is Linda Montanile. I am here to support the electric car, mainly because I think it's going to be a stepping stone for Philadelphia to turn even more green. I think it's going to really put Philadelphia on the map as far as an energy-efficient and earth-friendly city.
My name is Ted Singer. I'm here to support the electric car parking ordinance. I just feel that 10 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. it's a great opportunity for the City to reduce pollution by encouraging people to get electric cars who might otherwise think, I have no place to charge my car because I don't have a garage. So I think it's a great step.
Thank you. MR. TIM McDONALD: My name is Tim McDonald and I'm here to support the legislation as well, for all the same reasons that have just been stated, but the other thing is that I'm a big cheerleader for Philadelphia, and so the idea that Philadelphia -- I actually don't know of another city that has this legislation. So the idea simply when it gets out to the rest of the country that Philadelphia is supporting electric cars, that will bring an attention to Philadelphia, and Philadelphia is already trying to become kind of a green center, even more so than Chicago. So I think it will be bring a lot of attention and a lot of interest to the City. 11 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
And it is true that LEED certification does give points to private parking garages who install designated spots for plug-in cars. So the developer who does that gets points towards LEED certification, either silver or gold. MR. TIM McDONALD: That's a very, very good point. And along those lines, we're architects, developers and builders, and we intend to -- we're excited to have this legislation tomorrow, because we intend to include an electric car with the home that we're currently building for somebody. So we intend to really get the press out there on this legislation.
Thank you. MR. JOHN McDONALD: My name is John McDonald, brother with Tim, partner, and I'm a resident of Old City where parking is maybe at the most premium in the City. I'm also someone that's spent the last several months going to the 12 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. meetings for the GreenPlan Philly. This is very important to me to have Philadelphia become the epicenter of green living and green development in the country. Like my brother said, I think the fact that Philadelphia will become the first city with a legislation providing parking for electric vehicles will really set us apart and give us an opportunity for recognition on the sustainable path that GreenPlan Philly is taking. I think it's an opportunity not to be missed.
Could any of you or all of you, if you want, comment on the issue relative to the installation cost and maintenance cost? Do you think that that cost borne by the homeowner is something that is outweighed by the savings on the fuel? MR. TIM McDONALD: I think that there are two ways to look at that. One is new construction and the other is retrofitting an existing home. I think 13 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. it's a little bit more expensive to do that when it comes to an existing row home, but with every new development, you dig up the sidewalk and you bring in services and you bring in -- so it takes nothing to run a conduit out and have electric come out from your building. I think it's fairly insignificant on a 4-to-12-foot-wide sidewalk to cut a line. It's electric. It doesn't have to be very far below the ground, below the surface to run a conduit in. So I think it's minimal. I think those who buy an electric guitar -- those who play electric guitars out on the street through this -- no. 19
Plug into your sidewalk and play on the sidewalk. MR. TIM McDONALD: Right. Exactly. No. Those who buy an electric car will see this as an insignificant cost. 14 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
And it is cheaper on new construction? MR. TIM McDONALD: It's part of the process.
And you believe that the overall savings on the lifetime of the car and the fuel costs would outweigh the cost of installation and maintenance? MR. TIM McDONALD: Immensely. Especially when -- and I say "when," not if -- when codes, building codes, start requiring us to generate our own electricity rather than take it from PECO. And when we start generating our own electricity on our development sites, then we're not using any coal, anything to power our cars at that point, and that's very near in the future.
Please. MR. JOHN McDONALD: Additionally, I'd like to make the point that designation for electric car parking throughout the City, this idea of where 15 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. the charging ports are going to happen and the expense at which they'll be and who is going to pay for it, frankly, I envision an electric car user to have to power themselves, just like a gasoline car user would have to fill up their own car. So if I'm pulling up to Rittenhouse Square in my electric car, I don't expect to have a power station available to me, and I certainly don't expect to have it available to me for free. I do, however, if I have a designated space in front of my home, because of all the right reasons, it makes sense to designate electric car parking, I would as a homeowner either buy a home with a charging port already there or install one. So, therefore, I would be feeding my vehicle from my own meter. That's how I envision this really being successful.
I appreciate your testimony. Since we're talking 16 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. about electric fuel -- and one of the obstacles of natural gas vehicles is the fact that compressors are needed to charge the vehicle. Do you think we should look at expanding this beyond just electric vehicles, that natural gas vehicles also be included? Or I'm not even sure if that would be a practical expansion, but should we consider other than electric that need to be charged, like natural gas vehicles? MR. JOHN McDONALD: Should we consider vehicles in the City of Philadelphia other than -- with alternative fuels?
Right. MR. JOHN McDONALD: Absolutely. And I think this electric vehicle ordinance in legislation is the first step to that.
But, similarly, to be able to install in new construction a service to charge a natural gas vehicle would be maybe 17 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. approximately the same costs because -- I'm thinking that if we're going to head in this direction, that we shouldn't leave another facet of alternative energy out of the scenario. MR. JOHN McDONALD: I don't disagree with that, and I don't have an extraordinary amount of information on natural gas vehicles, for instance. However, you have your -- so I don't necessarily understand what the compressor situation is, but what I do understand is with electric, there is nothing other than a home run back to the electrical panel that could be directly run to a charging port at your residents' curb.
With a disconnect switch for the electric. But what I meant by the compressor, that years ago one of the drawbacks of natural gas or LNG was the fact that you had to compress the gas to get it into the storage tank. From what I understand, 18 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. that obstacle has been overcome where there is a way to slow-charge a natural gas vehicle overnight without having to have all the sophisticated equipment. All you need is the gas source and the rest of it happens. At least that's from what I understand. And I think that possibly we ought to look at that, too. But thank you very much. MR. JOHN McDONALD: Thank you.
Any other questions for these witnesses? (No response.)
Thank you very much for your testimony. Anyone else to testify on this bill? (No response.)
Seeing none, I want to report that Bill No. 22 070671 will be held, and I'm also going to read 070672 and 070691 together, and I would appreciate that whoever is going to testify give their testimony on both 19 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. bills. Bill No. 070672, an ordinance 4 enacting a new Chapter 9-3100 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Food Service Waste Reduction Ordinance," to prohibit the use of disposable food service ware that contains polystyrene foam and to require the use of biodegradable/compostable or recyclable disposable food service ware by food vendors, City facility providers, City departments and City contractors and lessees unless there is no affordable alternative; all under certain terms and conditions. And 070691 is an ordinance 18 amending Chapter 9-600 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service and Other Businesses," by adding a new Section 9-614, entitled "Mandatory Use of Recyclable and Compostable Checkout Bags," all under certain terms and conditions. Is there a representative from 20 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. the Administration here? Loree, thanks. Denise Earley could come to the table also. Good morning. Thank you for coming. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Mr. Chairman?
Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Councilman. I just have a few brief opening remarks to set the record straight on what caused me to introduce this bill, which you also co-sponsored. So before we begin, I just want to make a concession to the opponents of this bill, of Bill 070691, and better explain what the goals of the legislation are. No matter what type of material is used as a checkout bag, paper or plastic, there will be an environmental impact, and I understand that. Energy 21 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. for production, delivery and impact after initial use is part of that concern. To use one or the other is a choice that will have some consequences, and I certainly understand that as well. I'll say now that I'm not convinced that either product is better per se. Different studies point to different benefits. The best thing to happen would be for the consumer to use reusable cloth bags, and I would encourage to work to change that behavior and encourage that behavior. Having said all that, while this legislation partly deals with the environment, benefit to the environment was not my primary goal, although it's extremely important. Philadelphia is a dirty city. We've had the reputation and some people have called us Philthadelphia, and that's been around for a very long time and something that I take personal. Some people say it kind of like tongue and cheek or with a smile 22 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. on their face, but it certainly -- not too long ago, if you remember, the Mayor of New Orleans visited our city, and although I didn't think it was appropriate for him to make that those comments, the truth of the matter is that he was right. This city is a dirty city. Thousands of dollars are spent privately and publicly to pick up plastic bags that never decompose. How often have we seen bags stuck in trees or tangled in fences for months, maybe even years? Likewise, thousands of dollars are spent in flushing our sewer system because plastic bags clog those pipes. Those are my two primary targets with this legislation, and I am hoping our witnesses will keep that in mind when they testify. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you very much. Please identify yourself for the record, Ms. Jones, and proceed. 23 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
I'm Loree Jones, Managing Director of the City of Philadelphia. Good morning, Chairman and members of the Committee on the Environment and other City Council members. I'm Loree Jones, Managing Director of the City of Philadelphia. Thank you for inviting me here to testify on three environmental bills being heard here today. Bills 070672, 070691 and 070788 address environmental stewardship and urban sustainability. These bills clearly recognize that the private sector, as well as local government, play a leading role in transforming Philadelphia into a more environmentally responsible and sustainable city. The legislation presented here today is consistent with furthering the City's sustainability objectives. I would like to take this opportunity to emphasize this 24 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Administration's commitment to these concerns and values. This Administration has demonstrated leadership in protecting our air quality, health and environment, and most recently taking measures to mitigate the causes and impacts of climate change. S. Mayor's Climate Protection Agreement in 2005 and joined the Clinton Climate Initiative for Large Cities in 2006. These initiatives have supported such actions as our municipal energy management program through best practices and procurement, construction and facility management. Between Fiscal Years '03 and '06, electricity use for the General Fund accounts was reduced by 18,000 watts and natural gas use decreased by 63,000. As a result, annual greenhouse gas emissions fell by 12,400 tons of carbon dioxide. In 1999, Philadelphia became 25 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. S. to replace traffic signal lamps with light-emitting diodes, or LEDs. LEDs can consume about 80 percent less energy than standard incandescent bulbs. The City replaced 28,000 red lamps resulting in annual energy savings of 8,300 watts and emission savings of 4,100 tons. The longevity of LEDs also reduces waste and the number of manhours needed for replacement. We intend to double these benefits by changing to three-color LEDs. In light of global warming impacts and other pressing environmental challenges, this Administration continues to pursue the adoption of sustainable practices, planning and policies as demonstrated by reducing and greening our fleets, our anti-idling regulations and, more comprehensively, through the Local Action Plan for Climate Change and GreenPlan Philadelphia. This commitment is also illustrated through the Mayor's Climate 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Protection and Environmental Stewardship Executive Order presented on Earth Day, April 23, 2007, which includes the purchase of wind energy to meet the electricity needs of this building, City Hall. The Order requires all new construction and major renovation projects affecting over 10,000 square feet to be designed to meet, at a minimum, the LEED's silver rating category or, alternatively, to achieve a percent reduction in energy use. 14 These actions we realize, 15 however, are not enough. We need to make 16 continuous advances in greening our 17 municipal operations and creating 18 meaningful and sustainable environmental 19 legislation that will achieve maximum 20 impact. We believe that local government can and should act and lead by example in preventing further archeological harm and implementing, where feasible, greening policies and legislations. We're very much a green city 27 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. and probably one of the greenest cities in this country. I commend this Committee on the introduction of all the bills being heard today and support the intent of each. In their present form, however, there are a number of issues that need further deliberation and examination, and this Administration pledges to work with City Council to work through these concerns.
The proposed bills could increase operating expenses for several City departments due to procurement requirements, the cost of meals, necessary increases in staffing and additional regulatory enforcement. We have just begun to evaluate the impact of the bills on the City's operating departments. Acting on our commitment to advance the objectives of these bills, we would like to work closely with Council's Committee on the Environment to fashion amendments that create legislation that meet its environmental objectives without 28 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. creating unintended burdens or inequities in the future. In brief, I'd like to mention some of those concerns. Related to Bills 070672 and 070691, regarding the mandatory use of recyclable bags and the use of recyclable food service ware by the City and its vendors, many departments raised a concern regarding the lack of a citywide composting program with capacity to handle biodegradable materials. One of the greatest benefits of biodegradable products is that they decompose or biodegrade. Biodegradable and compostable materials do not biodegrade in landfills because landfills are designed to keep water out and minimize anaerobic activity in order to reduce landfill gas production. If biodegradable materials decompose in a landfill, the amount of landfill gas, methane or a greenhouse gas, generated would increase. 29 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. If these products are put in a landfill, the greatest benefit is, therefore, defeated. Without access to an appropriate disposal site, the intent of the ordinance would not be realized. This aspect is a market that could be cultivated here, and we'd like to recommend that our operating departments work closely with Council and the Commerce Department to ensure that we move to these products and ensure that we could then dispose of them in an appropriate manner. Additionally, the Procurement Commissioner has expressed concern about the potential difficulty in finding a competitive pool of suppliers that could provide the necessary material and food service ware. Without adequate competition, we run the risk of increased costs in program areas using these materials. We also want to be cognizant of the potential burden on our vendors. In both these areas, time for us to 30 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. assess the marketplace would benefit all affected parties. With respect to Bill 070788, the electric vehicle parking, the installation of an electrical outlet at the curb line has the potential to be a life-safety hazard due to electrical shocks, tripping hazards and sidewalk obstruction. There's potential for the abuse of electric outlets at curb lines through non-licensed business activity. On-street parking is scarce, as folks know, and a much valued public resource. Reserving on-street parking spaces for private use should be done in exceptional, limited cases. Currently, on-street parking is reserved for people with disabilities and for PhillyCarShare. Enforcement of these reserved spaces has been problematic. Reserving additional on-street parking spaces for electric cars has the potential to increase enforcement problems. Before passage, additional time 31 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. should be allotted to consider these issues, as well as the issues of utilization, adequate safety features and regulation. In summary, the Administration supports the goals and spirit of each bill, as we are committed to working toward making Philadelphia the next great green city. For these and other future green initiatives, the Administration looks forward to working with Council's Committee on the Environment to create legislation that conserves and enhances our natural resources.
I have with me today representatives from a number of our operating departments and the Commerce Department, Licenses and Inspections, Streets, the Water Department, Health, as well as representatives from the Planning Department. We would all be willing to answer any questions you may have. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you. 32 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
Thank you for your testimony. I would comment that when it comes to issues relative to environmental changes, you always find a wealth of reasons why we shouldn't do it, and it usually comes down to cost and it comes down to impracticality. I mean, it's easy to find reasons not to do something, and we're going to hear from a whole slew of industry folks who are going to tell us why this is all bad. I would rather approach it from another angle as opposed to trying to write the absolutely perfect bill that will conclude all of the issues that we could possibly raise, is to try to work it out as we go along. I mean, if we say basically we're not going to require biodegradable bags and Styrofoam until we have a compost operation, we probably aren't going to have it within the next four, five years, I guess. If we're going to say that 33 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. somebody could trip over the electric plug-in, we're better off finding a way to keep it from being above the surface of the curb as opposed to trying to worry about that. If we're worried about the available on-street parking operations, we ought to take a real review of all the people who have handicapped signs in the City, and I'm wondering how many actually really deserve them, and also those handicapped placards that people use as if it's their private parking spot themselves and are not disabled. So I appreciate your testimony and I would love to work with the Administration on these things, but I think that if we're going to wait until we have the perfect situation, we're probably never going to have the perfect situation. And one other comment relative to the Styrofoam. The cost for the operating departments should not be an 34 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. issue, because if the cost of the replacement biodegradable product is more than ten percent, you don't have to use it anyway. So I would suspect that if we had this bill in place or had this law in place now, that there would be an industry movement on the biodegradable material to get the price down below ten percent of the styrene product. Therefore, we would be creating an incentive to make that happen. In the mean time, if it's ten percent or more, they don't have to use it anyway. So I appreciate the testimony, but I really would like to try to get some things in place and then tweak them as we go along as opposed to tweaking it to death before we do it. So that's just my comment. Councilman DiCicco, did you have your light on? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: No. 24
Would you please identify yourself for the record. 35 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
Good morning, Chairman Kenney and members of the Committee on the Environment. For the record, I am Denise Earley, Director of Public Policy for the Greater Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce. First, I would like to thank the sponsors of the bills. The Chamber recognizes the intent of the bills before you is to reduce litter and to clean up the environment. The Chamber also recognizes Councilmen Kenney and DiCicco, sponsors of the bill, as staunch supporters of the business community. However, on behalf of the many affected Chamber members who have contacted me directly, the Chamber cannot support Bills 070671, 070672 and 070691 in their current form. The primary concern is the increase in costs associated with the use of alternative materials. This increase in cost would undoubtedly affect the businesses' bottom line or would have to 36 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. be passed on to the consumer. I talked to a Chamber member who was not in the food business and asked for some comparison numbers on plastic bag versus paper bags without handles, and this is what I was told: Plastic bags, 11-1/2 by 6 by 21 are 14.25 per thousand; 18 by 8 by 30 are 24.95 per 500; and 8 by 5 by 16 are 21.93 per 2,000. In comparison, paper, 17 by 4 by 24 is 47.68 per 500, and 8-1/2 by 16 is 38 per 1,000. In every case, plastic is substantially cheaper. You will hear from experts in the field today on biodegradable products, fossil fuel usage, landfill capacity and that cigarette butts, chewing gum and candy wrappers account for 90 percent of all litter. I am not an expert in that field. I am merely relaying a message on behalf of the Greater Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce membership. 37 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. These bills, in concert with other bills recently introduced, seem to target the same businesses: supermarkets, convenience stores and chain restaurants. The Chamber would prefer to see a recycling policy put in place rather than a total ban on plastic bags and polystyrene foam materials. We also believe that the use of recyclable canvas bags is a good idea, but it does not work in all instances. Personally speaking, if I do a big food order, I would need 10 or 12 bags, and that could be very expensive, and if it's anything like store coupons, I never remember to bring them with me. So, again, the Chamber thinks the intent of the bills is good, but firmly believes that recycling and education programs is a more business-friendly and practical route to take. Thank you for the opportunity.
Thank you 38 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. very much. I recognize the issue of cost, and I don't think it's insignificant, but there are certain issues where cost should not be the determinative factor. For example, if lead-based paint was cheaper than acrylic paint, which probably it was before lead-based paint was banned, would you be arguing that we should keep it because it's cheaper than the acrylic paint? I don't think so. So there are certain areas that we need to kind of give a little bit on. I mean, we recognize that some of those costs are going to be passed on to the consumer, but in the end, if their environment is cleaner and their storm water treatment plants are not having to deal with all this stuff, why would we not want to take on that a little bit? I mean, we have to take a little bit to help the bigger picture. I'm sure that refining fuel to the national standards of emissions costs 39 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. more money than it is if we just pumped it the way we did years ago. But those things get changed and it is a cost that gets passed on. But I do think in the end, the entire effort is worth it just beyond the paper bags versus the cost of the plastic bags. And the other issue, frankly, for the stores is, not until these bills were introduced did anybody talk about recycling, did anyone talk about educating their employees not to give me a plastic bag when I buy a pack of gum. I mean, people take those plastic bags in the stores and act like they just give them away no matter what you buy. So there's no education effort on the part of the retailers. There's no 20 recycling effort on the plastic bags on the part of the retailers until like today. I assume it's going to start. So where's the environmental concern on their part, not just the cost?
Well, in my 40 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. supermarket, which is outside of Philadelphia anyway, but they've had recycling for years.
Occasionally. Not always. My Genuardi's has recycling and they've had that for a while. But I just want to say that the Chamber is very willing to be any part of a task force to address this issue and work very closely with the Committee on some alternate language or see what we can do to address all parties.
Plastic. 41 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. It's not clear to me on what we're trying to accomplish here. If you're trying to accomplish -- you referred to our dirty city. If you go to the drugstore and you buy an item and you throw the plastic bag away, that's not a good thing. Many people put their trash out in plastic bags. Many people go to the store and buy 13-gallon trash bags to line their trash container that they put their trash out in. So why would we be concerned about plastic bags in a drugstore or plastic bags that we get at the supermarket if many people are going to the supermarket and buying 30-gallon, 50-gallon trash bags that are made of the same material? You're not going to correct anything. You still have the trash bags you put at the curb that are going to the landfill. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: You're absolutely right, and I agree that we should do away even with trash bags. There was a time I can remember 42 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. before there were trash bags that people put their trash in a trash can without a liner. But it's all about marketing. The chemical industry, the oil industry decide to come up with a product that would make people believe that it was more convenient for them to put their trash in a plastic-linered trash can, take the bag out of the trash can and take to the curb. I remember the day when you just picked up the can that was the same weight as the bag and moved it to the curb. It's all about marketing and it's all driven by the chemical industry, which is the oil industry. It's just market management or product being sold to the consumer. Denise Earley says she sometimes has 12 bags of groceries. I remember before we had plastic bags that people used a paper shopping bag, or my mother had a bag that I think must have been a hundred years old that was 43 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. something like a canvas bag with a leather exterior that was used time and time and time again, year in and year out. There were nine people who lived in my household, nine people, not counting the people who would show up every night, because my father was a number writer and everybody came to pay off their debts.
And my father would be there a few hours later. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: My point I'm making is, there were a lot of people. And your dad may rest and my father -- we understand that. There were a lot of people who were eating the food. There was a lot of food. How did they get that product, their food, from the grocery store to the home? Well, it was much more inconvenient in those days because you had to either go in my neighborhood to 9th Street or to one of the local stores. 44 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Now with the big chain stores that provide parking, people put their groceries in a shopping cart, wheel it up to the back of their car, pop the trunk, throw the stuff in the trunk and drive it home. They have to use their car again, because the chains killed all the small grocery stores off mostly in urban America and the suburbs, who never had neighborhood grocery stores. We go back to the same issue again. It's all about oil. I mean, we're going to hear about the cost, and I think that Councilman Kenney eloquently talked about the cost. What about the cost to our environment? What about the cost to the City, our city and other cities, in removing, disposing of this trash? And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that the Water Department, our Water Department, has a boat that skims the Delaware River somewhere around where the Schuylkill and the Delaware meet just to take plastic 45 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. products and plastic bags off our waterway so it doesn't get into our drinking water system or our filtration system at the water treatment plant. So there are other ways of doing it, but we've all been programmed to believe it is easier to put your trash in a bag and carry it to the curb. I would ask the consumer to calculate how much it costs that consumer every year to buy those plastic trash bags. No one tells you about that cost that the consumer is fronting. Up front they're paying that. Because we watch television and we're told every night, We're going to make your life easier. And I don't know if anyone has watched Anderson Cooper this week -- I've caught it late because I've been getting home late at night -- about this planet being in peril. And I opened my remarks and said it wasn't all about the environment, but it certainly is, and I think I qualified that by saying that that's just as 46 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. important. We're going to hear from the industry, the chemical industry, about the cost. It's going to cost more to produce this, because plastic -- you can do a greater volume of plastic in a tractor-trailer than you can paper. Well, maybe we have to convince people not to use either, start using reusable bags. And the industry may not like that because it's going to cut into their profits.
Councilman, when I was a kid, I had the job at the Penn Fruit putting the groceries in boxes for the customer. So I know what you're talking about. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman, there were people who sold in Center City when you went to the department stores, they offered you a bag, and if you needed an extra bag, there were people who sold you a bag for two cents or a nickel. I mean, they're 47 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. making it sound like if plastic goes away, we're not going to be able to carry our products home from a store any longer, that everything is just going to fall apart. It's an argument that they're going to continue to make, and I understand it, because they represent the chemical companies, which are really owned by the oil industry, and that's what they have to do. But no one is going to tell me that --
Councilman -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: We can start protecting our communities by removing this blight, these trash issues, that we'll be a better place in the long run.
Councilman, you referred to the City and its cleanliness. One of my observations throughout my years is the fact that when people put their trash out in plastic 48 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. bags, that as a result of that, dogs, animals, raccoons get into that trash and it gets spread all over. I asked the Streets Department for many years to look at other communities that have a requirement for a rigid container with a lid to be put at the curb, and I was told by the Streets Department that they don't want to do that, they encourage the plastic bags because the sanitation workers can move quickly and just throw them in the back of the truck, that people have no place to store a trash can and they don't want to be bothered bringing them back in, it's convenient for them to put it out. I would love us to move and have a requirement to have a rigid container requirement, because in Center City -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman --
-- when I see the trash out -- 49 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Could I interrupt you?
Sure. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: We have an ordinance. I think it was Councilman Mariano, if I'm not mistaken, that introduced it, and that bill was passed. Technically, in the City of Philadelphia, you're not allowed to leave your trash out in a bag. It has to be in a container with a lid. We're just not enforcing that.
Well, if that's in there, then the Streets Department should start to move forward in that area, because -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: We have been delinquent in enforcing that.
I'm convinced that part of the cleanliness issue is what I described, a dog going in to get garbage that's now commingled with the trash, all other animals, and it's all over the street. A rainy day trash 50 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. is put out early. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I agree.
So if that's the law, then I think the Managing Director should comment on that.
I'd like her to answer the question, please, about there's allegedly a law that requires a trash container rather than just putting trash out in a bag.
The City of Philadelphia is very flexible in what it allows people to put out in trash, in the way that we allow people to put their trash out, and we've historically been that way. Part of, though, the issue really to -- I appreciate both of your points, Councilmen. I think we have a number of issues that are leading to litter. Part of it is how people put 51 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. their trash out. We've made efforts through using SWEEP officers, enforcement, working through block captains, notifying people of ways to put out trash that make it easier in fact for sanitation workers to pick it up, but also make it easier so that it's less dirty, less likely for bags to rip and all of that. The other issue, frankly, related to the City and its conditions is that we do have a number of people who either live or visit the City that think it's okay to litter, and that's a challenge that we're addressing around the City. I was just here yesterday talking about short dumping, and there's a proposal to have an incentive program, really a reward program, to encourage folks to turn in people that are illegally dumping in our City. So there are a number of issues that we're trying to address in a variety of ways. As I mentioned yesterday, we're 52 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. in the midst of a citywide clean-up where we're doing hand cleaning block by block on folks' trash days to address some of the litter. But we definitely have an issue that may be as much related to people's behavior as it is to the types of materials people are using.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I may, it may not necessarily be a question, but I guess it will end up being a question. This whole issue with respect to the environmental concerns of trash bags, plastic bags and all, they're valid points on both ends, and I hear Councilman Rizzo brought up a valid point about the trash bags, and Councilman DiCicco parried and thrust, but at the end of the day, from my perspective, in a significant portion of my district the issue centers around trash, the little plastic bags coming out 53 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. of the corner stores and the Rite Aids and all of the other stores in the neighborhood. And I understand that this is really conduct that is unbecoming of the individuals who do it, but the bottom line is, they come out, they take out their product and throw the trash bag, and it flies all over the neighborhood and gets caught in the fence, along the edge of the fence and it just gets captured everywhere. And that's the biggest concern as it relates to these little trash bags -- I'm sorry; these little bags as it relates to the conditions in a lot of these communities. What would the Chamber or the City suggest in lieu of eliminating those bags to get rid of those bags and that refuse in our communities?
I mean, and please don't tell me education, because we've been trying to educate people for a 54 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. while. People are just not getting it. You know what I mean? I heard it earlier today, the education thing.
First of all, let me ask the sponsor. Does it affect the small mop-and-pop corner stores, or, no, it doesn't?
Well, they're not affected by the bill. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: It does not, but I would like for it to -- this is a start. This would be a start. And I'll get into the cost factor a little bit more as this testimony goes. If people want to save money, they should be encouraging their customers to use reusable bags. And if people started 55 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. using them, we wouldn't be having this issue and there would be no cost to the businesses of having to purchase bags.
You were going to say? Oh, you were just going to say that it didn't --
I didn't think it applied to the small stores that you were referring to, Councilman.
The original version. But one of the bigger issues I have is really those small stores throughout the neighborhood. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I'm more than happy to --
Again, I think I mentioned earlier in my testimony the Chamber is very willing to work with the Committee on any task force or any type of education or recycling program that would help the issue along.
Well, let 56 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. me ask you this, and I have to be careful how I phrase this: There's a cost associated with the removal of trash refuse. I know the City right now is working on a citywide program. I actually saw some people out with the blowers blowing trash off the sidewalks, and it looks nice for now, but that's probably something that should be ongoing, but at the end of the day, the City can't afford to do that. Is there a way -- and I know you're not going to be able to answer the question today -- that the Chamber and its members and its non-members could support initiatives that would help clean up, at a minimum, the commercial corridors? Because that's the biggest part in my district where you have these trash bags all over the place. Right now we wanted to introduce some special services districts in parts of --
That's what I was going to say. 57 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
-- parts of North Philadelphia, but when you do the assessments, the numbers just aren't there to support a tax-driven special service district.
Would the Chamber be supportive of a project that created an environment where we could, through its members and other entities, raise the necessary resources to have these types of special services districts throughout the City of Philadelphia --
Well, I can't commit for the Chamber at this moment. We'd be very happy to consider it and work with your office.
Okay. All right. Councilman, I'm probably going 58 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. to want to introduce an amendment to incorporate the smaller stores, because that is really a problem. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman Kenney, if I may. I know the panel has their lights on. I just want to cite one example. When you talk about cost, that the big chains are complaining that this is going to cost them, the day I did an interview with the South Philadelphia Review about this issue a couple of weeks ago, I pulled off to the side. I was parked next to the curb doing the interview from my car, and there was a gentleman who was coming out of the -- came out of the Acme Market at 10th and Reed in South Philadelphia. In each hand he had a plastic bag with groceries. The groceries were in a paper bag that was then placed in the plastic bag. So as Councilman Kenney said, I guess the educational process is beginning now, but you talk about cost? They could have very easily had given 59 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. that gentleman a paper bag with handles, but there's no reason for that to happen because they choose this is more convenient, allegedly more convenient, for people to have plastic. There are other alternatives. But I thought it was quite ridiculous when you make the argument about cost. And that happens in most supermarkets where the paper gets put in a plastic bag.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The reality is, going green is the future, and I can assure you that more and more bills are going to come out of this Council, a number of which have been introduced already, that deal with sustainability on a number of different fronts. So I need to underscore Councilman Frank DiCicco's comment in that we need to start somewhere, and if starting somewhere means getting rid of 60 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. the small trash -- you can't even call them trash bags. The small plastic bags that we get from Wawa and other establishments, we have to start somewhere. So that is to Councilman Rizzo's question. We do have the large trash bags that we have to deal with, but we have to get to that, and starting with the smaller bags at least addresses this issue of trash in our neighborhoods. That's number one. Number two, education costs. So talking about being a part of a steering committee that comes up with whatever the goals are is one thing. Ultimately to carry out any kind of education, information, anything, it costs money. So then the bigger question is -- and something I'm broaching the Chamber with now for you to get back to us later -- is what is the level of commitment that the Chamber is willing to make with regards to whatever education 61 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. initiative comes out of this Council. You should be advised that I've introduced a resolution calling on the Energy Conservation Office to work with us in having some broad discussion about a very formal education campaign around this whole issue of recycling and all that that means. So you say you're willing to work with the sponsor of the bill to come up with language. That's one clarification, correct, Ms. Earley?
And then the subsequent question becomes -- and it's a rhetorical question for now -- how do we translate real commitment and partnership in wanting to get the education message out, that ultimately it's going to cost money and that too will require shared financial resources.
Several of our 62 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. members already have education programs in place, and I think -- at least I was told by Wal-Mart that they sent a letter to all Council offices describing their recycling plans and their education plans already in place. There are several other members that already have education programs in place, and I'd be happy to share that with you.
I would certainly welcome that. What I am suggesting, however, is a comprehensive strategic plan by the Chamber on what it wants to do or plans to do or has an interest in Philadelphia going green from a commerce standpoint. So I again put that on the table, because individual spot kind of conscientious business retailers doing that is a good thing. It's a great thing when there's a comprehensive strategic effort towards Philadelphia going green.
Thank you, 63 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Mr. Chairman.
I think the business community has been pretty good about this. I was recently shopping in a supermarket and the paper bags were there, and the woman ahead of me said, I'd like to have a paper bag, and the person bagging provided a paper bag. I would like to see -- maybe the Chamber can help with this. I recently went to a fast-food place to pick up a cup of coffee and the container for the four coffees was cardboard. It was appropriate. When the people were receiving their orders, they were put in paper bags. I think McDonald's uses a white paper bag. So I'd like to see us ask for cooperation and try to get as many people to offer an alternative. And I think many people that have been in a supermarket know if you ask for a paper 64 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. bag, I think they provide it, because they're sensitive to the people that are concerned about this particular issue. So I think the Chamber could be very helpful in encouraging the major chains to provide as an alternative a paper bag or possibly even switch without the need for a law. It just seems as though --
-- there's a first step here, to see if we can get some voluntary cooperation. And my own personal observation is that paper is generally used. Again, I saw -- the paper bag with the McDonald logo was paper, not plastic.
Well, thank you for your observation. There are members of the community here from supermarkets and different things that will be testifying.
Thank you. 65 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
Thank you very much. Ms. Jones has to leave. Are there any questions for her? (No response.)
I did want to just reiterate that the Administration is supportive of these efforts and we're looking forward to having the opportunity to work with folks on it, and I think that we can do that simultaneously, working through some of those concerns that we have in how we administer it, how we would implement this, how we identified the areas for the materials. And so, again, we're supportive of this and appreciate your leadership on this.
Thank you very much for your testimony. Any other questions for 66 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Ms. Earley? (No response.)
Mr. Rich Savner, Rich McMenamin, Rocco D'Antonio and Andrew Wilson, please. Also, I want to explain the format of the hearing panels. The next three panels -- or four panels will probably all be against the bill in some form or another, the two bills, and I'm waiting for the last panel, which is the people who are supporting the bill, to hear all of the issues that are being raised by the opponents so they can have discussion surrounding what the opponents have put forth. So thank you for coming. Please identify yourself for the record.
Yes. Good morning. My name is Rich Savner from 67 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Pathmark Stores. I'm the Director of Public Affairs. We're headquartered in Carteret, New Jersey. Good morning to Mr. Committee Chairman, as well as other members of the Committee, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to present testimony on behalf of Pathmark regarding Bill No. 070691. As a company that considers itself part of the community where we operate supermarkets, Pathmark, we do recognize our responsibility to support common sense environmental issues that help sustain neighborhoods. For over 15 years, we've offered a two-cent rebate program to customers in all our stores throughout the four states we operate in who bring back bags or any other form of a receptacle to bag their groceries in. Last November, we did introduce in our company the sale of reusable canvas bags, and as of to date, we've sold probably about a hundred thousand of those bags. Just for the record also, we do have 68 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. eight stores within the City limits of Philadelphia, as well as several others just outside of the City limits. We do these recycling efforts because we recognize it is our responsibility to help the environment and we want to be green, as the common term is nowadays, but also because it makes good business sense. And in an industry that operates on the slim profit margins that we do, we're always looking for ways to improve efficiencies. In a moment, I'll introduce a new business partner that Pathmark has collaborated with from Penn Jersey Paper on a new program that we are instituting. And it is commendable that the City wants to improve recycling and the environment. We don't believe that this bill, in its current form, is practical, and it is expensive regardless of everybody's issue on it. It would potentially be an expensive cost to the supermarket companies. 69 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. I'm sure that the goal of the Committee, though, is to work towards a viable and cost-effective method for reducing plastic waste in Philadelphia, and I believe that many members in the business community do support that effort, as well as Pathmark does. So we would be looking to cooperate and work with the City on a practical solution. While Mr. D'Antonio will spell out the specifics of the program that we've partnered with him -- it's called Bag Smart -- I'd like to say that Pathmark is introducing a program, piloting it in its stores in Philadelphia and five sister stores just outside of the City, because we believe it is a way towards recycling plastics. And our expectation is that we will roll out this program to all 140 of our stores throughout the four states we do operate in. One detail of the program that I'd like to share with you, as I've 70 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. listened to everyone testify so far and comments that have been made, is that the effort to recycling goes beyond just putting the barrels at our stores to take back plastics and to put in-store signwork and let people know what our programs are, but I also think that it's important that we do market the program to the consumer, as well as to our own associates. We can do better. Pathmark can do better, and I think that's evidenced by what I have just announced to you folks, that we will pilot this program. We can do better. We challenge ourselves to do better. But it's a partnership that we need to have with not only the City government but with our customers and challenge ourselves to do better. We have to change people's attitudes about recycling and make them more aware of the benefits, but mandating the use, we don't believe, of compostable bags is going to achieve the goal of 71 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. reducing plastic waste. But we do believe that the program that we're initiating with Penn Jersey Paper is practical and a workable solution at achieving that goal.
And so without further adieu, I'd like to introduce my colleague now, Rocco D'Antonio, from Penn Jersey Paper.
Good morning. My name is Rocco D'Antonio. I'm the Business Development Manager for Penn Jersey Paper. Thank you to the Councilmembers for letting me give my testimony today. As a distributor of packaging products to the supermarket industry in Philadelphia for over 43 years, we are always looking for ways to reduce packaging and offer greener alternatives wherever practical for our customers. As I have personal responsibility for 72 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. checkout bags in the supermarket, I can tell you that the focus is and always has been on the reduction in both units and cost and product quality. And although we agree with the environmental issues raised by the City Council, we have concerns that passing this bill may cause many unintended side-effects as follows: Paper bags, for example, there are cost duplications both to the retailer and both to the distribution portion of supplying paper bags. Paper bags cost approximately three to five times more than plastic bags. This results in a substantial increase in operating costs for our supermarket customers. Also, I should tell you that promoting paper bags today will create a substantial supply and demand imbalance, resulting in even higher costs not only for the supermarkets but for every retail establishment using paper bags, no matter what it may be. As a distributor, freight and 73 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. warehousing issues are paramount to us. As you alluded to earlier, it does take substantial more quantity of trucks to handle paper bags. In fact, it will take seven to ten times more trucks of paper bags to distribute the same quantity as one trailer of plastic bags. In essence, that means it will require us to have a tenfold increase in trucking, fuel, exhaust emissions, labor, warehousing, storage, insurance, utilities and other associated costs. You also alluded to convenience of the City traffic. Convenience with paper bags is issue. Most traffic in the City of Philadelphia is walking traffic. Many people want a bag with handles, and although there are paper handle bags that you had mentioned, paper handle bags are not as relatively available as conventional paper bags or plastic bags, and they can cost five to eight times more than a standard plastic bag. When looking at the compostable 74 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. bag options, I thought it was prudent to reach out to our manufacturers to find out exactly where they stand on compostable bags. I contacted several of the manufacturers that we deal with who are some of the most highly respected manufacturers in the country and the major suppliers to the supermarket industry in the Philadelphia area. What I found was, number one, regarding availability, I was told that compostable bags may be available. And the reason why they may be available is they are still in the test phase and are unproven in any long-term studies. I was also advised that raw materials aren't available in any large volume and their availability may be uncertain. And to give you a perfect example, we supply compostable packaging to some of our customers. Many of our vendors who were promoting compostable packaging withdrew or delayed their product offerings because they were 75 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. unable to get raw materials. I was advised that there are manufacturing issues. Number one, it takes two to three times more material to produce a compostable bag than a regular plastic bag to achieve the same strength. This gets back into the same issue of freight, transportation, warehousing and all the additional costs. One of the most important issues to me were liability issues.
I was told that since compostable bags are still in the test phase and there is uncertainty relating to their performance and quality, that we were advised that if we were to request these for our customers or if our customers were to request compostable bags, they would come with disclaimers and possible hold harmless agreements to shield the manufacturers from liability since the products are too new and still unproven. I was also told that there are shelf life issues. I specifically asked 76 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. what assurances can they give us on the product stability in warehousing. I was told that they just didn't know, that if we had this in our warehouse, we don't know what's going to happen. So as a distributor holding millions of dollars in inventory in our warehouse and having a product that can be potentially unsalable, that is a major liability for a Philadelphia-based distributor of supermarket packaging. I'm also very concerned about offering compostable bags when there is no composting infrastructure available, and I'm concerned that compostable bags not being recyclable can contaminate existing recycling programs. And we are a recycler of plastic bags today, Penn Jersey Paper is. Cost, again, more expensive than paper bags. The cost duplications are huge for the distributors. They're huge for the supermarket industry in general. 77 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Given all this, we believe there is a far better way of addressing the issues. We are in favor of a comprehensive plastic bag reduction and recycling initiative. Penn Jersey Paper is in the process of rolling out this initiative. It's called our Bag Smart program, and it's designed to do several things. Number one is to reduce the number of bags used in the supermarket industry. And I can tell you every supermarket operator wants to do that and has been trying to do that and will continue to try to do that. In addition to that, we want to encourage the use of reusable bags, not just in selling them in the stores but in encouraging the consumers to actually reuse them more and more. And, again, that goes back to education. I think the timing is right for that. We are also aggressively getting involved in recycling. We are in the process of deploying recycling bins 78 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. to all Philadelphia area supermarkets that are participating with us. We will be collecting the bags on a weekly basis, and in addition, while we're at the store, we're going to be grabbing a lot of other plastic waste from the back room. All the pallets that come in stretch wrapped, we will be grabbing that plastic waste. All the case goods that come in with shrink wrap, the clear plastic wrap that holds the product together, we'll be taking that material as well. That's product that's generally destined for the trash, for the landfill. We'll be grabbing all of that product. And we're doing it in a way that I think is very creative. We're not just collecting it with our trucks, which we think is a problem. We've employed Goodwill Industries to go to the stores and pick up all this plastic waste. It creates jobs in the community and it's very newsworthy and it's a feel-good thing for the consumer to get involved 79 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. in. We're taking that plastic and we're selling it off to Trex Lumber to make composite plastic lumber. Again, it's something that the consumers can go buy in their local Home Depot or Lowe's. Again, it's a feel-good thing. People know what's going to happen with the product. We feel that these initiatives will ultimately reduce the bags used in the supermarket industry significantly. We're pulling plastic out of the waste stream from the back end of the store. We're going to recycle a specific number of plastic bags coming back to the supermarket industry. And when we're said and done, we're going to save money and we're going to have a cleaner Philadelphia.
We're involved with the Pennsylvania Food Merchants Association and their members, the New Jersey Food Council and their members. Many 80 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. retailers in Philadelphia have already signed up on our program. Pathmark was one of the first ones to step forward and said, This makes sense, we should do this. In fact, just recently, yesterday afternoon, for example, the Reading Terminal Market told us they are very interested in getting involved in this program as part of their overall recycling efforts. So we think it's good for the City of Philadelphia and we think it makes more sense than just starting to ban products and impose new products on our supermarket customers that aren't commercially viable at this time. I appreciate the opportunity to talk before you and I hope that some of these alternatives will make sense and you'll consider them as possible alternatives to your current bill.
Thank you. Councilman DiCicco, your light is on. 81 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. Thank you. D'Antonio?
Yes. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I don't know if you're qualified to answer this question. You talk about recycling. Tell me about recycling. How does that happen? What is the process for recycling plastic?
Well, if we're talking about plastic bags, number one, it's about having the bins and the infrastructure to handle receiving plastic bags at the store. That's number one. Number two, it's the store's commitment to manage those bins and store the product in the back room for us. Three, it's about our ability to go to every store every week with Goodwill Industries that we're funding and pick up those bags and bring them back to a processing facility that Penn 82 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Jersey Paper has set up. We go through all the plastic. We remove any contaminants. We have a special bailor that we purchased to bail up the plastic, and we store all this and we ship it off to Trex to make plastic lumber. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Tell me about the recycling process. You said you go through it, you remove the contaminants. What is it? Is it burned off? What's recycling? How do you recycle it?
Well, number one, our bins in our program were designed based on research from other recycling programs, and we feel that our bin design and our signage is, number one, going to reduce contaminants in that bin. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I understand, because I recycle plastic bags. Supermarkets have a bin when you go in or at the exit, whatever. When you 83 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. get that product back to your factory or whatever, what happens to that plastic bag?
We go through the plastic to remove -- maybe there's a bottle in there, maybe there's some paper waste in there. That product is removed. The balance of the product is bailed in 1,200 pound bails roughly and it's shipped to Trex's facility in Winchester, Virginia. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And what happens when it gets to that facility?
That's a question for Trex. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Pardon me?
Trex is here. Trex is going to testify. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Oh, okay. So you spoke earlier in your testimony, if I recall correctly, about the cost involved. Paper costs more than 84 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. plastic. The volume, you have to do more shipping, the larger volume of the truck for paper as opposed to plastic. But now you want to do a recycling program that says when the plastic is delivered via truck in most cases, I would assume, to the stores that are using these bags, you're going to now send a truck out to pick up the recycled material and bring it to your facility. It will be then cleaned up of any contaminants, put in a 12-ton or something bail, now put in a truck and shipped to another state. Isn't the fuel that we're using to move this recyclable product from one location to another -- I mean, I don't have the numbers, but it sounds almost as you're probably using as much fuel to move this product, continually move the same product around, as you would if you had originally used the paper, which takes them maybe two trucks as opposed to one truck. I mean, you got -- no matter what you do, it's going to cost you a lot 85 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. of money in fuel and more energy. I mean, there's more energy being used. And I'm being told -- I've been told that the plastic bag, the process for recycling is to burn it off.
Well, Trex will answer that part, but regarding your freight issues, the first thing I said is, our primary goal is reduction. We want to sell our customers less bags. We want to reduce the number of bags used in supermarkets, number one. Number two, regarding the freight, the freight issue, it probably takes the same amount of freight to ship it to a landfill and it probably is significantly less trucks to move the recycled plastic than the tenfold increase in trucks to move paper. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: To a landfill?
Well, even if we're shipping ten trailers of paper bags, it's going to be less 86 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. transportation on recycling than it is to ship paper bags. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I don't know. I think it's close, but...
This is to the supermarket industry. Another material that I see a lot of blown around the street when the plastic bags break open on trash day, when you display your merchandise, apples or fish or meat, you use these little plastic Styrofoam trays, I believe. Is there an alternative to those? Because aren't they a disposal problem when the consumer brings them home? You know what I'm talking about? The little trays where then the plastic is shrunk wrap around the dozen or eight apples or six apples.
I think I know what you're talking about, but I don't know that we do that in our stores any longer, Councilman, I mean, actually 87 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. there's a plastic bag that people put their apples or oranges in.
I think he's talking about if you're going to buy sirloin steak out of the butcher section, the meat section, it's going to be in a Styrofoam crate covered with --
Right. But actually there are alternatives that are degradable to the Styrofoam. But that's a Styrofoam issue, not a plastic bag issue. That's the other bill.
I would just make the general statement that if there's a more efficient way to do it, we're interested, obviously.
More 88 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. efficient or cheaper?
I think you guys have gone that direction because it's probably cheap.
Well, in New York City, they used to have that clear tray for the meats that you're describing, because the thought was that the consumer needed to see the other side of the package, and finally they rescinded that ordinance, but it was very much so costly and was not an issue to the consumer that there was much benefit, which I think was in the mind set of the Council in New York City.
But my point again, there is an issue that you hear today here that possibly you could come up with an alternative to reduce the number of those Styrofoam and plastic trays or plastic wrappings. And I don't know how you're going to get around that. 89 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. People need to see what they're buying, but...
I do agree with you. If there's a better way of doing it, we're certainly interested, as we are doing with Rocco's Bag Smart program. Absolutely, Councilman. Yes, sir.
Thank you. Whoever is next, please identify yourself for the record. MR. McMENAMIN: Good morning, Chairman Kenney and distinguished members of the Committee. My name is Rich McMenamin. I'm the owner/operator of the ShopRite at Roosevelt Boulevard. It's on Boulevard Plaza across from the IRS. Most people recognize it as being in the parking lot behind Chickie and Pete's. I was born, raised, educated and a current resident of the City of Philadelphia, and I'm here to discuss the Bill 070691, use of plastic bags. 90 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. Just on the way of background, I'd just like to -- ShopRite of Roosevelt Boulevard is part of the Wakefern Food Corporation. That's the nation's largest retailer-owned supermarket cooperative, with more than 230 stores under the ShopRite/PriceRite banners at about nine billion in annual retail sales. Wakefern provides marketing, distribution, procurement, warehousing and various administrative services to member companies. The cooperative's 44 members, of which I am one, own and operate the 200 ShopRite supermarkets in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware and Pennsylvania. We also operate 30 PriceRite stores in Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Rhode Island, and Wakefern and its subsidiaries together employ more than 45,000 associates. Ten years ago there were six ShopRite supermarkets in the City of Philadelphia. Today there are ten, and 91 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. by the end of 2008, there will be 12. And I believe this is an example of our firm continuing commitment to the City of Philadelphia. Wakefern/ShopRite's dedication to environmental stewardship is multi-faceted and includes Wakefern's Elizabeth, New Jersey recycling plant, which operates hours a day and six 11 days a week. In 2006, ShopRite recycled 12 more than 71,000 tons of cardboard and 13 1,668 tons of plastic shopping bags and 14 clear stretch film. 15 In 1991, ShopRite launched a 16 bag reuse program, which rewards shoppers who reuse shopping bags with a two-cent discount per bag. In 2005, customers saved more than $100,000 off their grocery bills while helping ShopRite use five million fewer bags. 6 million bags were reused. ShopRite continues to raise customer awareness of this program by posting window signs, register cards and printing information 92 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. about the programs on shopping bags. We have window signs similar to this. It's in the package. And this one just says "Want our two cents? " ShopRite provides training for associates in how to best pack a bag to ensure optimal capacity is being reached, with the goal of fewer bags being used. And I can tell you it's a continuous training effort that we have to do at our stores. Additionally, ShopRite encourages customers to use fewer plastic and paper shopping bags by offering reusable bags, such as this one, which we sell for a nominal fee of 99 cents that would do that. It is programs such as these that we feel help better our environment. Banning plastic shopping bags and replacing them with recyclable paper or compostable plastic bags will produce unintended consequences. Combining 93 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. compostable bags with the bags currently being recycled by Wakefern will contaminate the entire load, which could result in diminished recycling capabilities at our recycling plant. Plastic bags can now be recycled into plastic lumber, planters for gardening, new plastic bags and other product. However, if you combine compostables with the regular plastic bags, they cannot be recycled. The experts in the plastic industry can better address the technical questions. Our concern is the impact compostable bags will have on our own recycling program. We believe that all retailers should be responsible for improvement of the environment and not just supermarkets with gross annual sales of $2 million, or pharmacies.
We encourage other retailers to follow our example by recycling and offering programs such as the sale of reusable bags and a two-cent discount for reusing bags. If all retailers offered 94 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. the same type of programs such as those undertaken by Wakefern/ShopRite, we believe there would be a significant reduction in plastic shopping bag use at a steady progression towards environmental protection and sustainability. In conclusion, we would ask that you reconsider the legislative approach banning plastic shopping bags and instead consider promoting recycling and reusable shopping bag programs. We are committed to working with the City of Philadelphia to find better ways to effectively address this issue. Thank you.
Thank you for your testimony. Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. McMenamin, is that two cents a bag per bag you offer? How do you get the two cents? Per bag? 95 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. MR. McMENAMIN: Two cents a bag. If you come in with ten bags, we'll take ten cents off your order -- or 5 cents off your order. 6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Tell me 7 how that goes. Does someone bring them 8 up to the cashier as they're checking 9 out? What's the process? 10 MR. McMENAMIN: While they're 11 checking out. You bring them back in. 12 We encourage you to reuse them, bring 13 them back in. So they'll go shopping. 14 When they come up to the front of the 15 checkout, they'll just put their bags up 16 and then we have a code there and we 17 immediately deduct the two cents per bag 18 that they have on there. 19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Okay. 20 Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Please identify yourself for the record. 96 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
Good afternoon. Thank you for having me. Actually, good morning. My name is Andy Wilson. I'm CEO of S Walter Packaging. We're headquartered here in Philadelphia. We've been selling retail packaging for over a hundred years now. Different than the gentleman to my left -- and, by the way, I agree with everything and support what you say -- we sell retailers non-market, from the smallest variety store to a Wet Seal or a Talbots have multiple stores throughout the country. As a matter of saving time, I'm not going to repeat what these gentlemen say. I support it. But I do want to tell you that education is working. I would tell you 50 percent of our day our clients are calling, they're asking about recycling, they're asking about how do we become eco friendly. We have for the last two years been selling plastics, both high density and low density, with recycled content. 97 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. If we could get more of it, we could recycle more and sell more recycled plastic bags. We have people -- because we sell paper and plastic, so we're non-biased -- asking for paper with recycled content. So in short, the recycling is really the way to go. As far as plastic bags go, I'm not a recycling professional, but I will tell you that I've seen a paper recycling plant and I've seen a plastic recycling plant. And plastic recycles much more friendly with less energy. There's, from what I know, very few emissions, no water pollution, and we can make plastic bags over and over and over again. So we support recycling. We support education. It is working. And interestingly enough, we do offer degradable additives and it is not selling. People are smart, knowing that in a landfill there's no water, there's no light, this might not work. 98 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. We have also seen and introduced these reusable bags, which in the market atmosphere work very, very well. You could imagine if I got up and went across the street right now to Macy's with a reusable bag and loaded it up, I probably wouldn't make it out of the store. So there's a security issue with the reusable bags on the retail level. Overall, the plastic, it's much, much less weight, much less delivery charges, things like that. So in short, not to be repetitive, I would support a hundred percent recycling. S Walter would like to work with the City. We can take back the paper and the plastic and make paper and plastic bags over and over again.
Since you, I'm sure, sell product to various groups -- and I understand the intent. 99 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. We're getting started here, but it seems like we're -- and I don't want to use the word "pick," but we're pointing towards the supermarket industry. But you go to Home Depot, you get a plastic bag. You go to Lowe's, you get a plastic bag. You go to Macy's, you get a plastic bag. Plastic is used. And I know some of the high-end department stores have the paper shopping bag, Lord & Taylor's and some of those types. The supermarket industry is obvious that they use a lot of them, but there's still a lot of this material used in other industries or other retail. I think if we're going to look at this, you just can't look at the supermarket industry and say you have to comply, when the Lowe's and the Home Depot's and the Target's don't.
I'm sorry. Councilman DiCicco, Councilman Rizzo's line of questioning or comment is that it doesn't apply to anyone but the 100 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. supermarket industry, your bill. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Councilman raised that earlier about the smaller mom and pop --
No, no. 7 He's talking about retail outlets like Home Depot, Lowe's. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: It would apply to them.
It would? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah. Any company whose gross sales exceed, I think, $2 million annually and/or has five or more stores in a certain locale. Give me a minute, I can read it.
Well, if that's the case -- COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: But it would apply to them.
Within the County of Philadelphia? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Right.
That's the answer. 101 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
The answer would be to recycle it. And we come home, we take our paper bags, provided that they're all paper, and we put them out with our newspaper recycling, that we should take our low- and high-density plastic and it should go in the recycling container with our bottles, because the bottles recycle well with this. And it should all be recycled and reused whether it's, hopefully in my case, made back into bags, but if Trex wants to make it into something else, that's fabulous as well.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Please forgive me for not remembering your name. Do you have a written copy of your testimony? MR. McMENAMIN: Yes.
I also should have been more attentive, but the effort you have underway, the initiative 102 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. you have underway is how old? MR. McMENAMIN: We started in 1991.
Oh, okay. So can you brief us on what the level of success has been? Is the awareness and the understanding that you sort of have to get with the new program increasing given where we're headed around going green? MR. McMENAMIN: I hate to use the word "education," but it's a constant thing that we need to do. We need to kind of reinvigorate the program every so often, and we're committed to do that. We can use -- we have weekly circulars that go out, and we can use those in order to kind of encourage people to bring the bags in and reuse the bags and get their two cents. But currently if you go into the stores, you'll see window signs up there and you'll see placards at the register that say "reuse the bags." And also to comment even on 103 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. the -- because we have our own recycling facility in Elizabeth, we're able to -- we transport the cardboard and the plastic back on the same truck that we would send our empty pallets with. So it's a step that's kind of eliminated, and it's pretty efficient.
And you do have copies of your testimony? MR. McMENAMIN: Yes, I do.
Thank you very much, gentlemen. MR. McMENAMIN: You're welcome.
We're going to double-check that fact that super stores would be included in that. At the moment it's not 100 percent clear, so Councilman DiCicco is going to take a look at that and get an interpretation that it does in fact cover what I 104 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. suggested earlier.
Thank you very much. Donna Dempsey, Bernard Yaros, David Dunning, Samara Norman and Steve Rosario. Please identify yourself for the record, but I would also ask that if -- because you're kind of testifying on the same stuff, that if you have written testimony that is a replication of the prior written testimony, you could say that you agree with that and then give us some other issues as opposed to 105 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. just simply reading -- because all of the written testimony we put into the record, but as far as the discussion goes, if you're reading the same testimony, it gets a little redundant and you could pick up -- just use your own sense to figure out what's been said already and what needs to be said. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, before we start, if I may, I would be -- Steve Rosario with the American Chemistry Council. I'll be joining the next panel.
Hi. Good afternoon. My name is Donna Dempsey. I'm with the Progressive Bag Alliance. Honorable Chairman Kenney, Committee members on the Environment and others, thanks very much for the opportunity. As you could tell, as the last panel, we will only be commenting on the issue for plastic bags because therein 106 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. lies our expertise and we would prefer that, if that's okay.
I agree with all the testimony that I sent in, if that's what you said, and would just like to add some other things as well. Number one, I really feel that we are all starting -- we all have the same goal in common here, to work together to make Philadelphia more green, more sustainable. So I think honestly we have the same goal in common. We just have some different approaches that we'd like to discuss. First, a couple of information that may be new. Number one, plastic bags are mostly derived from natural gas, over 85 percent, and not oil. Ninety to 95 percent of people, I know from some very large stores in Maryland, ask for plastic bags. Interestingly enough, plastic bags were the environmental answer to paper bags 20, 30 years ago. 107 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. So we're really coming full circle. Also, well over 80 percent of people reuse their bags. I know when I'm making my son's lunch, I certainly put it in a plastic bag. When I traveled here, I put in all of my shampoo bottles and any kind of lotions that could explode. So 80 to 90 percent of people do reuse their bags. The Progressive Bag Alliance was formally formed in 2005. They are just formalizing programs that they've been doing, you know, not collectively but on an individual basis, especially with recycling and bagger training. I guess I'm not here only to point out some concerns with this bill -- and I will be brief, because it's in my testimony and you will hear from other experts, because I'm not a scientist. But what we'd like to do is, we'd like to see a collaborative approach. Other cities -- and we are working with other cities around the country who are at the 108 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. very same point that you are at and have taken a look at what I'll call a San Francisco-like type of mandate, and they've actually taken a step back and said, You know what, I think we need to be a little bit more collaborative and work together with our community, with the retailers and with the industry to come up with some more workable solutions. What we have been doing, especially with the new law, which I'm sure you're familiar with, in California, the AB 2449, the recycling mandate, we've been working with them in promoting and providing education materials, and what we have been working with and other cities and would like to offer up here as a different way or different path forward to reach the same goals that you have would be using less bags in the first place. And I think Mr. DiCicco said why would the plastic bag industry want to do that. But it's a better way. There 109 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. should be no double bagging. There should be the appropriate amount of items put in each bag. So we think using less bags in the first place. Offering reusable bags at the point of sale is a good opportunity for people who want to do that. Certainly increasing at-store recycling. If there's more at-store recycling, I know that it was a concern -- Mr. Chairman, I can't remember if it was yourself or Mr. DiCicco, but there was a concern about the trash and the amount of money that that takes. This would divert somewhat from that cost, because we think at-store recycling is a much better way to go about it. And as you'll hear again from some real professionals what a very big secondary market there is that was not in place several years ago. So that's where we could do a much better job. And we have been working with grocery stores in collecting data, and it's very, very encouraging with the 110 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. amount of tonnage of plastic bags that they're recycling. And as you probably do know, they make money for this, and I will leave that up to Trex and AERT, who will be testifying as well. So we have been supporting and doing education materials. And, again, we are looking today for a collaborative approach. I know cost has been something that has been discussed.
Something that has not been discussed is the cost of the infrastructure that Philadelphia would have to apply to make a proper composting facility if the mandate moves forward as is. Compostable bags, there's a lot of misinformation out there. First of all, there are some truly biodegradable/compostable additives in products that are compliant with the laws from the FTC. There are others that are not. So that really, as far as a liability issue, really needs to be looked at. However, again, Philadelphia 111 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. doesn't have a composting facility and these biodegradable or compostable bags will not disappear or degrade when you throw them in the street. If you put them in the Chesapeake or Delaware Bay, if you put them in your backyard composting and even if you put them into a landfill, they do not degrade really much more than anything in the landfill. Nothing in the landfill degrades much, and it's meant to do that. And, again, there are other experts who can testify to that a little bit more. So basically just in closing is, I would urge you to consider taking a private and public partnership in collaborating a better, more workable solution than an outright product ban, because, in closing, when you ban one product, you have to really take a look at the risks and benefits and economic and environmental unintended consequences of those products. You really need to think through that process. 112 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. I thank you very much.
Thank you. Just two comments. Just for the record, there are two composting facilities, one in Pennsylvania and one in New Jersey, one in Wrightstown, which isn't that far away, and Tremont, which is, according to the map, not that far away. So even though Philadelphia doesn't have one -- and maybe we should -- there are two facilities that are available. There's been a lot of talk about relative to the secondary market for plastic bags and plastic products. Hypothetically, if these plastic bags were banned, why wouldn't there be just an initial market for the same product that would make the decking, would make the planters? You don't need to recycle the plastic bags to make that product, correct?
The plastic 113 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. material that makes the decking and the planters and other stuff doesn't have to come from a plastic bag.
I understand, but it doesn't have to come from a plastic bag.
Also, the bags that come with the newspaper, dry-cleaned bags -- it's called clean plastic film -- can be included in that.
I understand that, and I'm not disputing that you can reuse it for that, but the initial material that make the plastic bag could simply be used to make the decking. I mean, I don't necessarily think -- while I encourage recycling and I'm glad there's a secondary market, because I do want to clean it up, I don't have to have a plastic bag to make a plastic decking. 114 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC.
That's not my point. My point is, we're touting the secondary market as a reason why we shouldn't ban the plastic bags. Well, the initial market for the decking still would exist without the plastic bags having to be recycled at all if we didn't use them.
If I may request that you hold that question. We do have two people testifying here, and I don't want to speak for them, Trex and AERT. Perhaps they could address the tonnage that goes into it.
My point is, it's a good thing to recycle the plastic bags into other materials, but you don't need to recycle -- if we didn't have plastic bags at all, they still would make plastic decking and planters.
That I can't answer. Honestly, it's just not my area 115 10/24/07 - ENVIRONMENT - BILL 070671, ETC. of expertise. I wouldn't want to make something up. We can ask Trex and AERT that.