COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE THE COUNCIL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, 4/25/02 9:40 a.m. - - - BILL 020001 - Adoption of FY '03 Operating Budget BILL 020028 - " " " Capital Budget BILL 020029 - " " '03-'08 Capital Program COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Anna C. Verna, President Jannie L. Blackwell Blondell Reynolds Brown Darrell L. Clarke David Cohen Frank DiCicco W. Wilson Goode, Jr. James F. Kenney Joan Krajewski Donna Reed Miller Michael A. Nutter Angel L. Ortiz Brian J. O'Neill Frank Rizzo Marian B. Tasco - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 WITNESS Robert Dubow, Budget Director................ Estelle Richman, Managing Director........... 3 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29
Madam President, I have to leave Council on Council business, and I'd like to leave my vote on the budget and the amendments, voting aye. I will be back in time for Council
So you are voting in the affirmative on the bills that we will be considering.
Good morning, everyone. This is the continued public hearing of the Committee of the Whole regarding Bill No.'s 020001, 020028 and 020029. Are there any questions from members of the committee? The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano. (Today is "Bring Your Daughter to Work" Day.)
Thank you, Council President. Just a question to Rob Dubow from the 4 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 Mayor's Office. Rob, who's that attractive young woman sitting next to you? That's my only question.
That's my daughter, Becky. She's my shield for today (Laughter.)
Councilman Cohen says that it doesn't matter if your daughter's here or not; he's still going to ask you questions. Just so you know. Thank you.
Councilman Cohen, I believe you were in the process of asking questions of the Administration?
Yes. I'd like to know whether there's any additional information with respect to the environmental positions we were talking about on Tuesday, the loss of the nine environmental positions in the Fairmount Park administration.
As we discussed on Tuesday, we are committing to fund three in the budget, along with, you know, the materials and supplies and equipment for them. As to the other positions, I think Managing Director Estelle Richman will give 5 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 you some information.
Estelle Richman, Managing director. I requested from Fairmount Park justification on their desiring or wanting the other workers, and have not received that justification back at this point in time. In other words, I need to --
When would it be expected that the information will be received?
Well, I asked them to get it for me last night. I need them to tell me they want them; that's what I'm asking them for.
All right. And is there any indication where the Fairmount Park Commission would get money from in the event they did not succeed in raising any money privately for the three positions they undertook responsibility for?
We will work within the 6 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 Managing Director's budget and with -- working with the budget office to make sure that the three are funded if they can't raise those dollars.
But where would the money from the three positions come from, which budget; the Managing Director or the Fairmount Park budget?
For the first three, what we said is that we will ask Fairmount Park to fund that from within its budget. If they go beyond three, then we will look for help in the Managing Director's budget.
How soon would you expect to get a reply from them with respect to those in addition to the three?
I think the Managing Director said that she had asked for the information last night, so it's just a matter of when Fairmount Park gets done, so it should be relatively soon.
'Cause I think it's very important that we get that answer before we take final action. Councilman Rizzo, I would yield to you. I understand... 7 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29
Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Managing Director Richman, you said something -- I don't want to use the word "troubles me," but I can't imagine the Fairmount Park Commission doesn't want -- did you say that they have need or desire for these positions? I would hope that if we're accepting money, funding from the William Penn Foundation, that it's not frivolous, that they would want these positions, and because it's not funded any longer it's not important. So I would hope that that isn't a question that they want these positions; maybe I just misinterpreted what you said.
No, it could be as simple as a timing issue. I asked them to provide some information to me, and they just haven't provided that information at this point in time.
But I would think that there's no question that they would want these environmental positions.
I would assume that, that 8 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 they would want these positions.
Because if I were the William Penn foundation and I'm funding various projects and we're doing it just because the money's available, it doesn't sound to me like --
The William Penn Foundation is also asking that we do a strategic plan to make sure that we're going to be using this staff and any other staff in a strategic, useful way as opposed to just doing things that we can't justify at this point in time.
Because I believe during the budget process that the Commission really wanted these positions; it was just a matter of funding, so I don't think that there was a question of need or want or desire. So I think it was just a matter of money.
Well, it's partially that they testified as to what they would need to keep their program running, and that was three. And in the context of the other things that we're doing for 9 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 the park in this budget -- the volunteer coordinators, the park rangers, the strategic plan -- we thought that that was an appropriate amount to fund.
Well, isn't it a practice generally of funds to grant conditional money, with the understanding that if the services prove worthwhile, that some other agency will undertake the responsibility after an initial period? I mean, the procedure by William Penn Foundation here seems to be in line with what foundations do generally: They give the initial funding for a test period and then it's expected that the regular funding agency would pick it up. And we haven't heard -- I haven't heard a single complaint from anybody in the City saying that these are trivial, worthless jobs that should not be funded. On the contrary; we've been getting overwhelming calls from people interested in seeing that these jobs continue to be funded, and it is time we begin paying serious attention to environmental matters.
I mean, again, that's the 10 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 rationale for funding the three; we were keeping the program going.
Well. But three doesn't keep a program going when it requires seven or nine.
Well, what Fairmount Park testified to was that they needed three to keep the program going.
Well, are you agreeable, then, to withholding action on the budget until you get the answer?
Well, I think the answer is in their testimony. That's what they said they needed.
That's not the answer. I'd like the Fairmount Park called again, Madam President, so let's get this cleared up once and for all.
My understanding of the testimony is that Fairmount Park did not in any way indicate that all they were interested in was 11 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 three; they said if that's the only funding available, we'll take that, but they clearly wanted more; they want a continuation of the program.
You know, you can have one Managing Director and fire everybody else and say you're keeping the Office of Managing Director going, but that would be the sheerest nonsense.
Well, on the other hand, you could ask any department whether they need additional positions, and they all do. We just can't afford to give everybody everything they need.
Well, there's various opinions to that. We have the two people who are officially responsible for the financial health of the City as watch dogs, not as the executive officer, both of them with long histories of warning us whenever we're going to overspend on anything, telling us that there is no concern about 12 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 overspending, that there is a concern about underspending. And that's what my concern is, that we're going to get involved in much more costly expenses later by failing to take proper environmental steps presently.
I actually don't think either one of those organizations said they were worried that we were underspending; I think that they both said that they thought that we should cut additional taxes. I don't think either organization -- I think, in fact, what they said they is that they thought that we should find ways to cut our spending, not to increase it.
Maybe we'd better start -- I don't mean to belabor this from the beginning. Let's get realistic here. You're going to have three people staffing an operation that consists of what, how many locations?
Three locations. So 13 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 one person at each location --
One educator, one educator in each location. How many educators presently? Nine? Seven? And I don't expect you to know this, you know, just pulling this out of the hat. My point being is, Rob, can we actually, realistically -- you know, the Fairmount Park Commission has a tendency to say that we can do with one lawn mower to cut nowadays all the grass too, but can they realistically function with three people and do a quality job? I think that's what this is all about, not just having an operation like the Councilman said, one person in the Managing Director's Office and you have the Managing Director's Office. Can the program -- and I think that's what we need to know. Is it just window-dressing to throw three environmental positions out there and say we have an environmental program? I'd rather have none than have a program that stinks. 14 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29
Well, you know, I can tell you that outside the hearing, they also said that they wanted the three. So, I mean, what --
Well, then if they can realistically run a program with three people, you know, that's their call. But what's the need for the number that they have now that's been funded? I just can't understand how you can go from eight, seven, nine, whatever the number, and do it with three people. That's what I need to understand, and I guess when the Fairmount Park Commission clarifies that, we'll either agree or disagree. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Councilman Cohen.
Mr. Dubow, it's my understanding that at each center, there is at least one and, in some cases, two people whose job classification identifies them as educators, and that the responsibilities of their positions 15 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 require -- these people who are called "educators" frequently, in fact, go out to schools to help educate the children, and that when they do, there is no educator present at the center where they are otherwise located when not teaching to handle people who come in. So that, effectively, if you only have one person available as an educator, then the service ceases to exist for those who want to drop in, and much of the activity involve people dropping in. Sometimes they're groups, sometimes they're individuals. So it seems clear to me -- and I haven't heard a single complaint about people wasting time. The only thing we hear are that the nine are, in the long run, just the beginning process, but they're beginning to do some very important educational work. And I think it's wrong that we ignore them and say that's unimportant, we're going to drop you; just as I think it's wrong that in the name of school reform, we drop things like Latin and we're going to set Philadelphia back on its heels and make us the laughing stock of the country, a major city 16 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 without the facility to teach basic material like Latin to students. So the same thing applies to the educators. I would like to get an answer as soon as possible with respect to the position of the Fairmount Park Commission and why they take whatever position they do take.
At this time, the Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Thank you, Madam President. In an attempt to answer my colleagues' questions and concerns surrounding the environmental educators, let me share the following information. Last June, a resolution was introduced to allow the Fairmount Park Commission to come before us and tell us in detail what is and what is not happening with Fairmount Park. October 31 we had a hearing where park advocates, members of the Fairmount Park Commission, Fairmount Commission staff came and, for several hours, explained to us the needs of the Philadelphia Fairmount Park. Three recommendations came out of those hearings: One was that the City needed to do a 17 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 strategic plan, which we know now the William Penn Foundation -- at least the staff of the William Penn Foundation -- are recommending to the board that $300,000 be given towards a strategic plan for our city. A second recommendation was that the City in fact pick up the tab for the park rangers. The City was on the verge, or Fairmount Park Commission was on the verge, of losing the park rangers. The City has said we will continue the staffing of those positions, and that recommendation has been honored by the Administration. Thirdly, there was the request that the volunteer coordinators be held onto because though we pay for five, they work with 30,000 volunteers around the City on parks. Most recently, in the last three weeks, we've learned of the need and the interests for the environmental educators. The Fairmount Park Commission testified that they wanted us to hold on and save three. The Administration has said, Yes, we've heard that request, and we will fund the positions for three environmental educators to continue the work at Pennypack Park and two other 18 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 parks in our city. So we have, indeed, honored every single request of the Fairmount Park Commission and the recommendations that came out of those hearings last October 31.
Respectfully, I would have to say that my conclusions are at odds with those expressed by my esteemed colleague Councilwoman Brown. My clear understanding -- the record is as crystal-clear as it could be -- is that there is a basic need for at least minimally carrying the same group that we carried before through the William Penn Foundation.
And I just don't understand why public relations consultants' agreements fly through the budget so easily, but when it comes to important things like environmental matters, we are squeezing every penny and acting like the traditional Scrooge. We're fearful that maybe something good will be happening, apparently, in the City of 19 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 Philadelphia, and we seem determined to throttle it and prevent it from happening.
Mr. Dubow, is the Managing Director trying to get a response from the Fairmount Park Commission as to --
I believe the Managing Director is on the phone and apparently trying to contact him. Is the Managing Director in the corridor, Mr. Dubow?
Can you try to ascertain what's going on, please. (Ms. Richman returns to chamber.)
Miss Richman, were you able to contact Mr. Mifflin?
Yes, and he would be a while getting down, but I did get the information. There are nine people on the grant: Four of them are secretaries and five are 20 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 environmental workers. He felt that he could do the job with three of the environmental workers at this point in time, but I'd be glad to facilitate a meeting with Mr. Mifflin and Council around looking at those positions, what they're doing, and how they're involved. We do believe we can absorb the clerical positions from within the Department, but the nine people on the grant are five -- the grant pays for five environmental staff workers and four secretaries. There are three centers, and they're assigned to the three centers, so he felt that he could do one person per center with clerical backup.
And what happens to the work the people are doing that are not connected to --
Councilman, you're going to have to speak into the microphone; we can't hear you
I'm wondering what happens to the work of these people who are going to be taken away from their regular work to fill in? I mean, does Fairmount Park have so many secretaries 21 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 that they're looking for work to use as filler space for them?
There are often ways that we can share clerical support within the departments.
Well, I -- I -- I accept that notion, but it seems to me it's unlikely that the work of four full-time people can be made up for by part-time work from current Fairmount Park employees, because my impression is that Fairmount Park believes that we squeeze them much too tightly already without respect to these environmental positions. Frankly, I don't understand the intense dislike for environmental matters that the Administration is expressing. Why does the Administration regard environmental matters as being so unimportant that they don't have to give them support?
Councilman Cohen, I believe by rehiring from the grant three of the environmental workers, we are trying to give them support in making a commitment that we will make sure their clerical needs are being met. I also 22 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 feel we're doing that. Again, we would be in a position that every single worker who wants a secretary would have one, and I think that's not good government management not to be able to look at how we can use staff most effectively. The critical staff here are the environmental workers, and it's the environmental workers we want to make sure that we have and that we support them. I'm not sure one per worker is a way to be as effective as we can possibly be as we look to use our resources.
Well, there's more than one environmental worker currently, isn't there?
That's not my understanding, and I would like to have Mr. Mifflin here to clarify that, because unless it's clarified, I think I'm going to be compelled to offer an amendment to the appropriations bill to guarantee that we're depending not on the hopes of the promise of the Mayor but on the budget to produce what's 23 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 needed for the environment.
We are producing the environmental staff; you have us saying that we will make sure that the environmental staff are there. We're talking about making sure also that they have the necessary clerical support to get their job done.
Mr. Mifflin's in another meeting and can't appear, but he is not downtown.
Would you be able to get the Commissioner on the phone so that Councilman Cohen could have a conversation with him? I think we have to move forward on these bills. Would that be possible?
Can we do that now? Because we're really running very late.
Councilman, the Director is going to get Mr. Mifflin on the phone for you so that you could have a conversation. 24 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29
Mr. Dubow, this question was asked on Tuesday; I would have hoped that when you came here this morning, you would have had the information that was being requested. (Ms. Richman returns to chamber.)
Does the Managing Director want to be recognized?
Yes. What we will be trying to do is make sure that the environmental centers are kept open during the day, as they are now. Evidently, the system is that if one of them is out or if they have a class, the center close. So we will work with Fairmount Park to make sure the centers stay open and they don't close down because of an incidental reason.
With that understanding by the Managing Director and her commitment that the services will be maintained at 25 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 least at the same level that they exist now, I will withdraw the rest of my questioning.
And I thank the Managing Director for her understanding of the position.
Thank you. Are there any other questions from members of the committee? (No further questions.)
Seeing none, this will conclude the public hearing. We will go into our public meeting. I assume that everyone still have has the amendments that were submitted on Tuesday. At this time, the Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell regarding Bill No. 020001.
Excuse me. Mr. Dubow, did you want to be recognized?
I have one other question on Dignity Housing, a $50,000 item, and I 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 would like to hear from the Managing Director with respect to that.
Well, what good does that do to tell us that it's going to be considered at that time?
You have hearings on that when you go through the Year 28 OHCD budget, so you haven't come up to those -- had that hearing yet.
So then there's no 21 guarantee about anything. I mean, really, I don't need any lung exercise; I'm pretty good at getting my own. Therefore, to tell me that I'm going to be able to make an argument at a later hearing by a different agency is no answer at all. 27 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 I want to know if that later hearing will result in the additional $50,000. I just don't understand the thinking that goes behind these budgets. When the $3 billion budget gets stuck on a $50,000 item or an item involving a couple of hundred thousand dollars and you spend all the time and energy fighting against it, one has to worry what are the priorities that are being served by the budget?
The 50,000 is not an item that was ever funded out of the $3 billion; it's funded out of the OHCD federal grant budget, and you will have a separate hearing on that; it's a whole separate process for that.
Well, why don't we put it in the current budget, and if OHCD then has the 50,000 in its budget, we can remove this and we could send the 50,000 to a PR consultant or somebody else as they needed money. But in the meantime, let's guarantee that a worthwhile project gets funding.
We will commit to putting the Dignity Housing contract within the OESS budget, 28 4/25/02 COMM. OF THE WHOLE - BILLS 020001, 28, 29 the homeless budget.
Yes. That means that it will have the same level of funding in '03 as it had in '02.
Okay, very good. - - - 29 4/25/02 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
We are in our public meeting, and the Chair again recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell regarding Bill No. 020001.
Thank you, Madam President. I move that 020001 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation and also that the rules be suspended so as to permit first consideration at our next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and properly seconded that Bill No. 020001 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation and also a recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended. All of those in favor will signify by saying aye. Those opposed? The ayes have it and the motion carries. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell regarding Bill No. 020028.
Thank you, Madam President. I move that an amendment to Bill 24 020028 be adopted. (Duly seconded.) 30 4/25/02 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING
It has been moved and seconded that the amendment be adopted. All those in favor will signify by saying aye. Those opposed? The ayes have it and the motion carries. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. I move that Bill No. 020028, as amended, be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation and also a recommendation that the rules be suspended so as to permit first consideration at our next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and properly seconded that Bill No. 020028 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation, as amended, and also a recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next Council session. All in favor will say aye. Those opposed? 31 4/25/02 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING The ayes have it and the motion carries. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell regarding Bill No. 020029.
Thank you, Madam President. I move that the amendment to Bill 7 020029 be adopted. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that the amendment be adopted. All in favor will say aye. Those opposed? The ayes have it and the motion carries. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. I move that Bill No. 020029, as amended, be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation and also a recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at the next session. (Duly seconded.)
It has been moved and seconded that Bill No. 020029 be reported out of committee with a favorable recommendation, as 32 4/25/02 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - PUBLIC MEETING amended, and also with a recommendation that the rules of Council be suspended so as to permit first reading at our next Council session. All in favor will say aye. Those opposed? The ayes have it and the motion carries. This concludes our public meeting. I would ask the members of the Fiscal Stability Committee to please remain in their seats; the others could go into the anteroom. (Proceedings end at 10:24 a.m.) - - - 33 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia's meeting of the Committee of the Whole of Thursday, April 25, 2002, are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. RE: Ordinance No. 020001, 020028, 020029 _______________________________, Josephine Cardillo Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)