Because I don't see him. Unless he's
so we'll proceed if he comes forward i'll keep you posted thank you very kindly
i don't joe are you on i've been talking to him and i thought he was on the whole time
it looks like he might be under you we can promote that other name okay
uh joe oh you know he may have you know what tanya he was having trouble getting in
and i sent him the link that came up when i registered this morning okay could that be why
he's showing up that way yes so he might have signed there he is looks like he's there okay
so do you think you have to get rid of me to see him live you can proceed we will handle all the
technical behind the scenes work you can proceed okay all right um mr chairman members of the board
There he is up there. The other Steve Pollack. There's Joe. Joe, you were previously sworn in.
We're in the middle of your testimony the last time we were here on June 15th, correct?
That's correct. Joe, do me a favor just for the record. State your name, spell it for the court
reporter and I'll swear you in again. Good afternoon, everyone. It's Joseph or Joe. C-O-C-C-I-O.
Right. Do you swear for him to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Yes, I do.
Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Powell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Joe, last time when we were, when the hearing had to be stopped,
You were going through your correspondence and conversations with Joanne Parkins of the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation, and we had introduced all of her correspondence with you.
you were going through your correspondence and conversations with
And can you tell us, Jo, did she discuss the billboard location of a non-accessory sign at this location relationship to PennDOT requirements with you?
um absolutely as evidenced by uh all the emails that uh her and i uh you know exchanged back and
forth um and ultimately she stated that uh our sign met all of the uh qualifications that would
again i'll just uh raise again the same objection i had last time which is objection to a hearsay
testimony uh we'll accept the letters and the emails that were received by mr cocio but
as far as, you know, him discussing conversations and what those, what the content of the emails
in terms of like, as for the truth of, of, you know, what, what she said, we will object to
hearsay. So, so I hear you, I honor that objection. Mr. Powell, just have him talk about what he did
as a result of it. And then you have the letters that you can submit. There are, they are submitted,
they've been read into the record already previously and as we said you know the one of
the things the hearsay rule does not apply to hearings like of this nature and you have to weigh
the credibility uh and the veracity based on the circumstances so it's not it's not a it's not a
it's not a criminal court or even a civil court when it comes to the application of the rules of
evidence okay so we're going to move on we're going to try to give you a little leeway but
so let's move on yep yep so joe um we what we have is already as it's been shown and if i could
i do really need my associate nico riabuto uh given some permission to be because he's going
to handle our screen if we're going to handle your technical things right yeah yeah okay
Hopefully, Nico, you're still there.
Joe, the current sign is used by the union 24 hours, seven days a week?
Yes, sir.
And it's currently a digital sign.
Isn't that correct?
And again, for right now, it's about eight feet by 17 feet in dimension, correct?
And it faces especially the station at 2nd and Spring Garden, correct?
That's correct.
That's the station for the L?
Yes, sir.
And why was it important to have this sign even at that location facing that way?
For basically the same reason that we chose this location to move to, access to our membership.
And the Market Frankfurt line is our busiest line
It's our most traveled line by our 5,000 members
And basically it connects with all of the rest of the system
And it was purposely chosen so that this would be a central location for the membership
As well as for us to communicate to those members who do ride that train every day
And night for that matter
Okay. So, Joe, does the union own any other outdoor advertising signs anywhere in the city of Philadelphia?
No, not at all.
So if there's a requirement, one of the refusals is that in order to get a digital sign, you need to take down two existing lawful signs. Do you have any lawful signs to take down?
No, we definitely do not.
And you and you and the union are not in the business of being a a non-accessory billboard company that has other locations.
Is that correct? That's correct. OK.
Now, the sign is supposed to is going to be updated and upgraded to where it'll be 12.33 feet by 31 feet.
Is that correct? Yes, sir.
And that means that we're going from about 142 square feet to about 383 square feet.
Is that correct?
But the sign's going to stay in the same position on the roof, correct?
Yes, the same roof mounts with some minor adjustments just for support.
And the sign will still be a single-faced sign.
Isn't that correct?
Yes, sir.
same manufacturer, same basic design, with, you know,
market improvements.
Okay, isn't it true that local, if given permission to convert the sign,
Local, if given permission to convert the sign, that local 234 is going to be the one that pays for the sign, will be in control of the sign structure, and will own the sign structure.
that local
That's correct, yes.
Okay, so this is not going to be a billboard or the ordinary outdoor accessory sign that is owned by and put up by at the cost and expense of a third-party billboard operator, correct?
That's correct. Okay. Now, also, the sign continue to be used by Local 234. If you were allowed to convert it into the new proposed billboard sign, outdoor advertising digital sign.
Absolutely.
So the purpose of this is it's going to be sort of a mixed hybrid kind of use. Is that correct?
Yes, sir.
So you'll still be able to do what you've been doing with the ridership public and your membership with public service announcements?
That is our plan, yes, sir.
And you'll still be able to, if you're riding south on I-95, be able to get the weather and the time from your sign that we've all been able to get over the years?
Yeah, that's correct.
Okay. Now, just to bring back, refresh the board, at the time PennDOT even got involved with you.
You were having a sign up that was talking about Pond and Lihockey. Isn't that correct? The law firm?
Yes, sir. And that we did have a picture of that showing that you were advertising that and Pond and Lihockey are the law firm that provides many legal services to the Transportation Workers Union.
Isn't that correct? Multiple services. Yes, sir.
And in fact, even at the time when you had correspondence with an involvement with Joanne Parkins of PennDOT, Pond and La Hacke actually had a physical office inside your building.
Isn't that correct?
They had everything essentially but the actual desk.
I mean, they participate in our meetings, our functions.
They occasionally set up shop in the building.
But I wouldn't say at that time we had a dedicated, say, here's your desk, here's your office.
Although we were willing to do that, there really wasn't the necessity.
So from your concerns, what you were doing was really just putting up the name of the vendor and the law firm that rendered service to your membership, correct?
Well, one of the calls, one of the many calls we get all day long is what's the number for
Pond Lahaki or who is the attorney that we use for the many issues? And so that was one way of
making it easier. We certainly were interested in letting, we have such an issue with people
retiring and not knowing, and we just really wanted to get the message out there.
We had ran it past an attorney at that time, and he assured us that since they were affiliated with us, it really wasn't a problem.
So, one of the refusals is that we can't be, we have to be, you can't be more than 25 feet above the road surface from which the advertising message is intended to be principally viewed.
And that that's in the refusal that's part of the record. Are you aware of that one? Yes. And right now we're proposing that we're at 28 feet because 28 feet is the height of your building off the off of Second Street.
Isn't that correct? Yes, sir. But we'll have testimony from our expert witnesses about this.
But, Joe, isn't it the intent that the road surface from which this is principally viewed will be the off ramp from Calla Hill as well as the main elevated roadway for I-95?
Yes, that's correct.
and uh joe so aren't aren't you at least with regard to uh the roadway of an elevated roadway
of 95 that's above you isn't that yes above your building and also you're pretty much probably
about level with some of the off-ramp at cattle hill is that correct that's that's very accurate
okay so the only way and you're putting the sign in the same spot same location so uh
The only way you could comply with that would be to tear down part of your building to lower the roof line. Is that correct?
That's correct. Yes.
Okay. Now, Joe, and Nico, I don't know if you can get me our A3A through A3D aerials that we had shown previously, because I just want to go through the neighborhood.
If I could, we could allow Nico to share the screen.
Here we go.
So where we've circled, that's where your sign is, and that's where the existing sign
is, and that's where the new sign is going to be, correct?
Yes, sir.
Okay. So, Joe, let's see what the environment's like around here. We have right in front of the building, that's 2nd Street. Is that correct?
And if you go to the – that's it. And then if you go to the right to the next roadway, that's the off-ramp coming down from I-95. Is that correct?
Yes, that's the Callahill off-ramp.
Okay. And then we have the next roadway is the southbound roadway of I-95, correct?
Okay. Now, in this sign, in your neighborhood, aren't there other outdoor advertising signs already?
Well, when you say in the neighborhood.
Nico is putting a hand at.
yes there's there are others in the name but i didn't know like how far you're well but i mean
even in this picture joe right now yes where nico's hand is that's that's the closest one
spring garden and is i don't know i don't know the official address other than i will say
that um some may be familiar because there was probably a few zoning cases in front of the board
over the years that's where delilah's den is located correct that shopping center yes an
enterprise rent-a-car okay and so there there's a billboard sign there uh then we go up just
across the street at quain oak isn't there a billboard sign in front of that property now too
yes on the side of their uh their building okay that's across the street on on spring garden
street no actually uh you were there you were there back back back where you were nico and
and across the street. There you go. But the sign faces the 95, not Spring Garden Street.
The hand is basically on Spring Garden Street, where the sign is actually in between the building
and 95. Yes, right there where the hand is. Okay. So this neighborhood already has signs in it,
correct yes and if we go um to um let's show a3b the next picture
uh again and we show where the sign is now to the left of you um just above you at second right at
the corner of second and and spring garden is a black roof building yes and then when we started
this case back in June, that black roof building was there. Isn't that correct? Yes. And now if we
have new pictures, because there's been a change in circumstances, that building has is in the
process has been torn down. And in the process, they're building a new high rise residential unit
with some commercial, I believe. Isn't that correct? Yes, sir. Okay. Nico, can you go to
what we've marked in our supplementals
as the photos of construction
for 200
spring garden
so this is what
this is taken Joe right from second
spring garden is that correct
yes sir and if we go
this is getting now we're
getting still showing that and all
the construction go down
and we're showing more construction along the
way and these are all
our photos as we go down we're getting towards your building uh in between this new building
and your union headquarters is still de simone auto uh shop right auto sales and body shop
it's actually a body shop yes okay uh keep going nico
i'm gonna object uh just to the relevance of uh the new construction
well the relevance is why don't we talk about where we're going with this
would be easier well what i'm what i'm going to say is that there's we're going to show you that
would be easier. Well, what I'm going to say is that we're going to show you that there's a new
there's a new
building that's going to be built. The new building is going to have a 60-foot property wall that'll
have no windows that'll be facing us so that we're not going to have any spillage or light isn't
going, you know, there's this change in circumstances. Here it is. So what we're trying to do is show
that there is a, you know, we don't want to have to be candid to the tribunal and the candidness is
there's something new that's happened in between the application okay okay okay put it on so here
we go so you see where it says rooftop roof landscape update pending yes okay now there's a
a dark wall or like a brownish wall yes sir and that that is the orientation that's going to be
facing uh your building because your buildings to the south of that correct yes and the white
The whitish building that's sort of shown down below is the DeSimone property, correct?
And we'll present it through our engineer.
Our sign goes back about 16 feet right now, the roof sign.
Right.
And it's angled such that it angles out towards traffic southbound on 95 on an angle, correct?
Yes, sir.
So this wall is 60 feet deep.
So we're not going to be impacting any new housing or open windows for any other property.
Is that correct for this new property?
We didn't before.
And this will even further ensure that there's even less chance, even though there was a zero chance of us impacting anybody.
Do you feel that the visibility of even the proposed sign will be curtailed and cut down by this building once it's up?