COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Monday, May 3, 2004 9:50 a.m. - - - BILL 040255 - An Ordinance adopting the Operating Budget for Fiscal Year 2005 - - - PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILMAN JUAN F. RAMOS COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE L. BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
The hearing of the Committee of the Whole regarding Bill No. 4 020455 will now come to order. Judge. We have Council members who are in their offices, and they will be able to hear the testimony. I think you have waited long enough. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. HONORABLE FREDERICA A. MASSIAH-JACKSON: Good morning, Council President Verna. My name is Frederica Massiah-Jackson. I am the President Judge of the Philadelphia Court of Common Pleas and the Chair of our Administrative Governing Board of the First Judicial District. And I would like to introduce you to Joseph Cairone, who is the First Judicial District Court Administrator. He will be presenting the testimony today. And I would like to introduce you to Kevin Cross, who is our Deputy Court Administrator for Financial Services. And, of course, Mr. Cross has a great deal of the 3 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 backup information relating to the budget today.
Good morning, Madam President, Council Members. With your permission, I would like to proceed.
The First Judicial District respectfully submits its FY '05 general fund and grants revenue budget for the fiscal year commencing July 1, 2004, with the recognition that this City Council and 66 other counties throughout this Commonwealth are faced with the dilemma of funding 60 judicial districts that by case law should be state funded. We, therefore, seek your support committed to the tasks of increasing city revenue and reducing costs wherever possible as borne our by our performance over the past several years. This budget submission is consistent with the City of Philadelphia and FJD FY '03 mandamus settlement and FY '04 budget 4 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 agreements, both of which allow any and all savings generated by the FJD to be transferred to the court improvement account to fund FJD technology, training, and facilities projects. 6 percent decrease in overall funding totaling approximately $9 million. 4 million, as well as line items to address DROP terminal leave formerly funded by the city and DROP right-sizing. Net of the new programs and additional operating expenses, the FY '05 proposed budget is $3 million less than the district's current FY '04 budget. The proposed new programs and additional operating expenses, however, are 5 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 required for continued third-party grant funding of the court's juvenile specialized probation program; the continued operation of two decentralized juvenile probation offices, one each located in North and West Philadelphia; juvenile advocacy services provided by the Support Center For Child Advocates; the continued provision of interpreter services, including those offered by the court to the deaf and hearing impaired; community court coordinator services; additional Traffic Court postage; fully state-reimbursed judicial staff following Harrisburg's increase in the District's judicial complement; and, finally, the FJD's continued participation in the city's DROP right-sizing program. The combined Family Court Juvenile Operations increase of $894,000 consists of three components. When we testified before this body last year, we established that the Juvenile Court Judge's Commission grant funding of the juvenile specialized probation program 6 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 requires a departmentwide juvenile probation officer complement of 233. Absent staffing at the full 233 officer level, the JCJC has advised they will withdraw support for continued funding of the probation officers currently assigned to the specialized probation program. To account for the total shortfall of 33 departmentwide officer positions, the FJD negotiated with JCJC a phase-in of additional positions negotiated over the course of three years, 11 hires in FY '03, FY '04 and FY '05 respectively. The FY '03 hires were supported within that fiscal year budget and are, therefore, not resubmitted as an increase in this submission. The 11 positions filled during FY '04 were funded by a one-time $400,000 carry-over from Fiscal Year '03. We, therefore, request funding for 22 probation officers in FY '05 to avoid the potential closure of the court's juvenile specialized probation program. 7 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 The second component of the Family Court request is made because of juvenile probation's unique supervisory requirements. The department, located at 1801 Vine Street, has decentralized part of its operation to better serve its client base. Two units were relocated to remote sites at 46th and Market and I and Tioga Streets. Grant revenue originally budgeted for rent is no longer available as a result of reduced funding. The District's request for $72,000 will permit juvenile probation's continued community partnerships at these locations.
The last element of the Family Court's juvenile request is to provide for the Support Center For Child Advocate's increase in representation of children in need in our dependency court proceedings. The center continues to deliver the highest quality of services to each child and family, and has been recognized as a highly dedicated provider in this area. In recognition of the center's 8 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 increased caseload and concurrent increased costs of services, the FJD agreed to increase the center's contract by $35,000. In reality, the center's services exceed the contracted cost, but they have graciously agreed to maintain the current level of supports provided. It is our belief that neither the District nor the public it serves can afford to lose the services of this valued provider. We are all aware of issues appropriately raised during our testimony last year and the need to provide additional services in the area of domestic violence. During this past fiscal year, various improvements in operations and to the physical plant at 34 South 11th Street have occurred to provide increased services to the victims of domestic violence. We have worked closely with various interest groups to review operations and participated in preparation of a request for grant dollars to create a domestic violence triage center. 9 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 To address the continued demands in domestic violence filings, as identified in our written testimony, and in anticipation of an increase in client inquiries and filings resulting from the city's domestic violence hotline initiative, we request additional funding for clerical support. There is also an increased request to support Family Court child custody issues. Increased court-ordered home investigations, mental health assessments, and family counseling sessions require the addition of one psychologist to enable the custody unit to comply with state-mandated time frames for scheduling conferences and case disposition. As you are aware, the First Judicial District is committed to engaging citizens in the administration of justice by enhancing access to judicial proceedings and the services provided by the courts. Utilizing the Trial Court Performance Standards as a guide, persons with no or limited English proficiency are assisted through the use of bilingual forms and 10 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 documents, professional interpreter services, and bilingual and multi-lingual FJD employees. In the last calendar year, the FJD serviced a broad cross-section of fellow Philadelphians by providing interpreter services in 51 languages. This effort has been recognized by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court Committee on Race and Gender Bias. In particular, the committee remarked in part in its final report, "Pennsylvania's First Judicial District in Philadelphia County has taken a lead role by initiating a formal court interpreter system. " The FJD implemented many new ideas and initiated several improvements to address the needs of persons with no or limited English proficiency and those with hearing disabilities in the following areas: The recruitment and training in court procedures of bilingual and multi-lingual employees, 11 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 staff interpreters, and contract interpreters; telephonic services; services for the deaf and hard of hearing; the establishment of a court information office; and the development of forms, brochures, and videos in Spanish and English. The FJD supplies accommodations for the deaf and hard-of-hearing community in several ways. These services are provided by the court to assist litigants, attorneys, witnesses, and judges. Overall, since 1999, contract interpreter services expenditures have increased by 147 percent, without corresponding increases in funding by the city.
The FJD can no longer internally fund these uncontrollable expenses and, therefore, requests a $200,000 increase from baseline FY '02 Class 200 funding for this line item consistent with projected FY '05 increases as provided before you. The Philadelphia Municipal Community Court has emerged as an alternative court that 12 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 combines criminal justice and social services in a centralized location to respond to quality-of-life offenses. As a court of alternative sentencing, community service and behavioral health treatment programs are emphasized for less serious criminal offenses rather than incarceration. The court's mission is to reduce recidivism by addressing the defendant's underlying social service needs. In addition to community service, ancillary services include drug treatment, education and employment referrals, and anger management counseling, as well as on-site physical health screenings and continued medical care and referrals. This budget submission includes funding for two community coordinators in order to continue this diversionary service program. 8 million in Fiscal Year '03. We anticipate the city's share of 13 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Traffic Court collections will exceed $12 million this fiscal year. To continue Traffic Court initiatives, to enhance notification, dunning, and enforcement, we require additional postage expenditures totaling $72,000. Our submission also seeks funding for judicial positions related to a legislative increase in the Philadelphia judicial complement. This request is cost neutral, given that the city receives reimbursement from the state for judicial staff. As promised during our negotiations with the city last year, the FJD will continue to participate in the city's DROP work force right-sizing initiative in Fiscal Year '05, under our previous agreement which excludes those identified from consideration. To support our submission and others proposed, the FJD has preliminarily identified cost reductions necessary to achieve various budget targets. Making those reductions will impact the current level of service delivery. 14 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 But until all variables are examined, specific predictions are impossible. The FJD is continually developing plans to further reduce costs. As you are aware, we have reduced positional levels by a total of percent 8 over the past several years. When all 9 additional positions relating to the city's 10 requested assistance in prison overcrowding 11 relief are removed from the equation, the 12 reduction in work force totals 26 percent. 13 During this same time, case loads 14 have increased in all courts of the FJD, as 15 detailed extensively in the appendices and 16 attachments provided. 17 This fact alone demonstrates the 18 commitment of the judiciary to cooperate with 19 its government partners in seeking 20 efficiencies wherever possible. 21 Not only have we planned for additional savings as part of our submission, but the FJD has, consistent with the long established practice of sharing FJD-generated increases in revenue from filing fees, 15 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 submitted a revised civil fee bill to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania which seeks increases to its current fee structures in alignment with surrounding county fees. 2 million will be transferred to the city General Fund. The FJD has generated substantially increased revenues over the past five years thanks to aggressive collection policies in Traffic Court, the prothonotary, and adult probation, where collections directly benefit both the city's General Fund and victims of crime. The revenue sent to the city from Traffic Court are ironically not a result of increased ticketing activity by police, which dropped by percent in 2003, but, rather, by 21 traffic court's aggressive initiatives and an 22 increase in dispositions before Traffic Court judges.
Historically, filing fees for all local governmental agencies have been waived 16 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 by the district, notwithstanding the fact that these fees are added to judgments entered in favor of those agencies. These fees amount to approximately $2 million per year. 9 million, this practice can continue. However, a General Fund budget of less than the requested amount will require a reexamination of this policy. We have stated in prior budget testimony, and continue to emphasize, that the FJD generates revenue in excess of 55 percent of its operating budget request. Appendix provided details to collection of FJD-related revenue. million over the past two fiscal years and are anticipated to increase further as the electronic citation program develops and 17 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 awareness campaigns increase. The Municipal Court has implemented a pretrial summary diversion program that has generated in excess of $672,000 to date. And, finally, the Family Court juvenile branch is working with DHS to increase reimbursable expenses under Act 148 and Title 4(E). Since FY '98, the FJD has generated $21 million in additional revenue to the city General Fund as provided in Appendix 3. Notwithstanding substantially increased revenues to the city generated by the District, the FJD has accepted reduced budgets in FY '02, FY '03, and FY '04 in the spirit of cooperation. This budget submission for FY '05 continues to demonstrate the District's commitment to increasing revenue and services and, wherever possible, reducing expenditures. For the past ten years, the FJD has not requested any funding whatsoever from the city's Operating Budget for any of the very substantial improvements to its technology 18 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 infrastructure or its physical facilities. Rather, these expenditures have been totally self-funded through prudent expenditures and the responsible management of our budget. Many of the improvements in question benefit not only the judges and employees of the court, but are of mutual benefit to the District's criminal and juvenile justice partners; such as, the police, prisons, district attorney, clerk of quarter sessions, sheriff, and the Department of Human Services. All of these justice partners rely heavily on the FJD systems in carrying out their respective missions. With that said, this submission, coupled with very conservative expenditures, may allow us to maintain that which we currently provide. The FJD supports various segments of its operation through grant revenues. An overwhelming majority of those revenues received by the FJD are from Title 4(D). In conjunction with the State Bureau of Child Support Enforcement and the Federal Office of 19 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Child Support Enforcement, the Philadelphia family court's Title 4(D) child support enforcement program has implemented Phase One of the Improved Case Management, ICM, plan during Fiscal Year '04. The ICM plan is designed to improve case processing and generate additional program revenues to ensure a future self-sufficient program. The ICM plan establishes a team approach to case processing, with a major goal to increase performance measures by improving the four major areas: Paternity establishment, court-ordered establishment, collection of current support, and collection on arrears cases. These new integrated efforts will increase the number of absent parents located, support orders established and enforced, and collections provided to Philadelphia families. This new plan of action will dramatically improve child support services to children and families in Philadelphia and is fully supported by the Commonwealth of 20 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare.
Although not a part of the FJD-submitted budget request, recent events at the Criminal Justice Center further demonstrate the need for adequate security in all government facilities. The minimal amount of security in City Hall should be of concern to all of us. We recognize that, as a multi-purpose public facility, imposition of security measures will cause some degree of inconvenience. Additionally, security hardware and adequate security staff involve substantial expenditures. We are aware that the Capital Programs Office has been working towards improving security in City Hall, and we solicit the support of Council in expediting work in this very important endeavor. Finally, on behalf of the Philadelphia judiciary, Administrative Governing Board, employees of the First Judicial District, and the citizens of Philadelphia for whom we appreciably work, we 21 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 9 million for Fiscal Year '05. Thank you for your attention, and we are happy to entertain any questions.
Thank you, Mr. Cairone. Did the Administration inform you of their intended budget reductions? And, if so, did they share with you their rationale for the cuts?
They did share with us their intended budget reductions. And we have had -- and the rationale, the overall city rationale, of reductions. Not specific to the court, but the need to reduce budgets as a result of the city's fiscal dilemma. We have had several meetings with city Administration germane to this issue, and we have exchanged information at several of those meetings.
If your proposed budget gets approved as is, what operational impact will this have on the ability of the 22 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 courts to operate?
In fact, Madam President, we will enhance the services provided by the court.
I said, if the proposed budget as presented is approved, what operational impact will this have on the ability of the courts to operate?
Although we haven't analyzed entirely the budget impact at 106, we have preliminarily reviewed operations that may be impacted. And the reason I say, "may," it is because we don't want to make decisions in a vacuum, without other agencies that we interface with. But our first blush is to look at the court's core responsibilities. And what we have identified are those items that do not fit within core responsibilities. There are many jurisdictions throughout the country that do not operate 24/7 as courts. We need to look at the continued operation of preliminary 23 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 arraignments on a 24/7 basis, the operation of bail interviews, pretrial conditional release supervision, and all of those matters that relate to 24/7 operation. And, of course, there is a snowballing effect in that respect. If we reduce some of our shifts, for instance, the 3:00 to 11:00 or 11:00 to 7:00, then we can reduce some of the data processing and MIS shifts in relation to that. We have looked at the possibility of not bringing in jurors one day a week to reduce the cost of juror services. We have looked at the possibility of -- the unique, distinct possibility of reducing specialized probation programs because they increase the case loads of other probation officers, and we can't --
Sure. There are certain defendants that fit into categories that require special supervision; such as, mental health, domestic violence, sexual 24 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 offenders. We provide reduced caseloads for those individuals, or probation officers that supervise those individuals, because of the intensity of the supervision. We also participate in the youth violence reduction program. Each adult probation officer has a caseload of between 30 and 35 that are assigned to that program. General supervision probation officers carry a caseload in excess of 180. So if we had to reduce our costs, naturally we would look at reducing specialized areas so that we could spread the caseload over those that remain. We have looked at ceasing all improvements for physical plant, of course, because there will be no surpluses. We have looked at cell phone use, parking, automobiles. And we are doing that in conjunction with the Managing Director's Office. We have looked at collapsing the juvenile probation satellite offices, which will be necessary. 25 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 We have looked at, of course, eliminating all overtime as it relates to probationers that have to come in off hours or the use of warrant officers off hours to support electronic monitoring and conditional releases. We have looked at reducing pretrial supervision for those defendants that are released conditionally after incarceration because they cannot afford limited bail, and for those defendants that are placed on conditional Type and Type release after the preliminary arraignment, which is specific to reducing prison overcrowding. And, of course, we have looked at the general areas that most people look at, and that is reducing positions through attrition and not filling positions as quickly as they are vacated, as we have done this fiscal year. So those are some of the things that we have looked at. We have looked at the possibility -- I'm sorry. Do you want me to continue? OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
No. Just what you have said, in looking at some of those cuts, wouldn't that be creating a very, very huge backlog?
Yes. And I didn't mention the need to close certain courtrooms as a result, because we won't have staff to staff them.
It is almost paralyzing. You mentioned in your testimony that the new programs you are requesting are required for continued third-party grant funding of the court's juvenile specialized probation program. For the record, can you explain the program, who funds it, and what happens if you were to lose this funding?
What you just mentioned? 27 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Well, these are -- the programs I mentioned previously related to adults. These are juveniles, but they fit within similar categories. These are juveniles that have been identified as the highest risk, sexual offenders, assaultive backgrounds, that require specialized probation and intensive supervision. The program is funded through the JCJC program, which is a Juvenile Court Judge's Commission. It is a state-funded agency. So the money is --
It is not a matching fund. The only match that's required is that we maintain a certain level of probation officer positions, and they will give us the funding for the 31 officers assigned to the program.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman 28 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Nutter.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a couple of questions. I would like to get a better understanding from the court's perspective on the issue of recidivism. Do you have any statistical information that would indicate on a yearly basis how many of the same people over any period of time, a year, two years, three years, end up coming back through the criminal justice system, coming back through the courts?
We do not currently maintain that statistical data. I don't know if the police department does through police photo numbers. We do maintain probation information as far as defendants that are on A, B, C, or D probations. So, we can identify those that have had multiple probationary sentences.
Each time a defendant 29 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 may be sentenced to a probationary period, we escalate it alphabetically by the next probationary sentence he or she may receive so that we know that they have been in the system before.
Could you provide us, obviously without any descriptive information, any statistical data for the last, I don't know, three to maybe five years how many -- is A once and is B a second time, and it goes in that direction?
That's correct. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilman, I do believe the prison department keeps some of that data that you are asking about, about the recidivism.
Okay. I just wonder whether, through your computer system over in the courts, you would have any ability to provide us any information, just in terms of who is coming through your system and how many times over some period of time to show --
I think we can probably provide the data as it relates to 30 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 probation, but I do want to make sure that I am not making an incorrect statement. As far as those that return through the preliminary arraignment process, we don't currently track that information. But unless it requires programming, I will find out if we can put something together in that nature, as well.
Okay. I am assuming that when there is an inquiry about someone who is in the system, there must be some identifier, whether it is -- is it called a PPI or a Social Security number, or something.
All right. On of the testimony, it talks about the Domestic Violence Task Force. Again -- and I know that her Honor was asked to be a member of the task force -- does the court system have any ability to give us data or information regarding the issue of domestic violence as it comes through the 31 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 court system? And could you tell me, or tell us, rather, either what kind of trends you are seeing in the courts on domestic violence, how are those cases being handled in terms of prosecution and sentencing, what happens or what has been happening to individuals who might violate, for instance, I guess it is either called a Protection Order or Stay Away Order. Any information that you have in that regard would be appreciated. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilman, as you know, I was appointed by the Mayor to that Domestic Violence Task Force, which is chaired by Commissioner Sylvester Johnson and Ellen Tracey. I have some statistical information which may be on point. The domestic violence unit of the courts was created in 1990. And that was in response to a 1989 amendment, state amendment, to the Protection From Abuse Act. At that time, back in 1989, there 32 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 were 2000 PFAs, protection from abuse, petitions, filed. And we subsequently opened up our unit. We had five court employees. By the end of that year, 7,000 petitions were filed. And when we go forward to 2003 --
Your Honor, I am sorry. You are saying by the end of 1989? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: 1990.
There were 7,000. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Correct. And if you look at of the testimony, you will see a chart. By the end of 1990, there were 7,000 petitions filed. And by Year 2003 --
14. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Correct. There were 14,004 petitions filed, and our domestic violence unit had increased to 14 employees. So, over the years, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of domestic violence petitions and protection from abuse. 33 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 If you want, I can give you the breakdown of what happened to each of those orders, those 14,000 orders
That would be helpful. I just wondered what actually happens when someone violates an order, and how they are being dealt with in the court system. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: I can answer that, if you want.
Oh, great. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: I have two pages for you.
You are always prepared, always prepared. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Our domestic violence unit in Family Court is available from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Monday through Friday. And we have an emergency unit that works through our Municipal Court from 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 a.m. Monday through Friday. And, of course, 24/7 over the weekends and holidays. 34 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 That emergency unit is staffed by masters, attorneys appointed by the Municipal Court, and authorized by the PFA Act to grant emergency relief. Petitioners filing in the domestic violence unit are screened, they complete their intake forms, they are interviewed in private offices, and then the petitions are presented to Common Pleas Court judges for review and a possible entry of a temporary Protection Order. All petitioners are presented with lists of resources for additional assistance that they may require. Then, once they go before the judge of the Court of Common Pleas, each judge will hear the case, the judge reviews the petitions which are filed, and including those emergency petitions which may have been filed overnight or over the weekend. Then a petitioner receives two copies of the petition that's filed, one for his or her records and one to be served to the respondent. 35 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Personal service must be made to the respondent before the court date, and the petitioners are encouraged to use police assistance. And certainly with the initiative of Sylvester Johnson, the police have been much more receptive to these. And written instructions are given to the petitioners. Copies of all orders are entered and sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, and there is a state registry for Protection Orders. The court must notify State Police within hours of the entry of an Order, and 16 then the State Police enter the Orders into 17 their database. 18 If an arrest is made, then the 19 individual may be charged with indirect 20 criminal contempt, if there is a violation of 21 that Order. 22 If there are additional charges 23 which rise to the level of a felony, then the 24 case goes before a judge in the Criminal Justice Center. 36 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 There may be charges at the misdemeanor level, and those are heard over 34 South 11th Street, with the domestic relations division. If there is no arrest, then the victim may open a Civil Petition For Contempt, and Women Against Abuse or the Philadelphia Legal Assistance Fund will assist those ladies. And, also, another alternative is that a private Criminal Complaint may be filed, in which case that would be heard in Municipal Court.
Thank you, Your Honor. One last question in that regard. Of the 14,000 or -- I don't know if you have any data for last year, but I think for '02 it was up in the 14,000 range, as well. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Correct.
Do you have any information that indicates how many of those Protection Orders were violated? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Well, 37 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 not all 14,000 ended up as final Orders.
Okay. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: In 2003, 1,124 were entered by default; 2,546 were final Orders, and they were entered into by agreement; and there were 307 final Orders that were entered by court, by the court, after a hearing. But 6,700 of those petitions were dismissed because the plaintiff failed to prosecute, and 813 of those petitions were withdrawn at the plaintiff's request.
So about half. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes. So I can see if we have the information about the number that were actually violated.
Thank you. The last question was about this mitigation protocol you mentioned on . HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes.
Can you tell me a little bit about that, and when did it get started, and what was the genesis of it? 38 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes. In Year 2001, when I came before this City Council, you may recall the First Judicial District asked for $3 million specifically for counsel fees, court-appointed counsel fees. That request was denied at that time, but in 2002 we received $1.5 million in counsel fees.
I remember that. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: And from that one and a half million dollars, approximately -- about a quarter of a million, 250,000, was set aside specifically to create what is really ground-breaking, this protocol for mitigation representation to defendants who are charged with first-degree homicide where death penalty's an issue. And Mr. Cross and I and Dominic Rossi, one of our deputies for First Judicial District, the three of us worked with the Philadelphia Bar Association and Jules Epstein and created this mitigation protocol. It specifically addresses the penalty phase of a homicide hearing, after 39 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 defendant has been found guilty of first-degree murder and faces the possibility of death.
So you are using those funds to help? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Just that portion of the funds. Most of the balance of that one and a half million is for counsel fees for Family Court, over in juvenile section.
Right. Okay. Last comment. With regard to the overall budget, and the issues affecting the First Judicial District, and the ongoing discussion of who should fund the courts, given the proposed cut, can you tell us if there have been any attempts or efforts to seek even some partial funding for the First Judicial District by the state in accordance with, as I understand -- I am sure you know better -- a previous State Supreme Court ruling with regard to funding for courts? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: 40 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Councilman, if you look at , Footnote 1, you will see, although this Order of the Supreme Court from July 26, 1996, states 1996, the original opinion in this Allegheny case --
I thought it was an early one. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: -- was 1986 or '87.
Right. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: And, since that time, I believe every judicial district throughout the state has looked to, has spoken with our AOPC, which is our central Administrative Office of Pennsylvania Courts, looking for additional funding. The state legislature has not only not been receptive to assisting individual districts; the state legislature has cut the funding of the statewide court AOPC. So the answer is, yes, we look to the state legislature. But, as I have recounted, we have had no success at all.
Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. 41 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Thank you. Your Honor, weren't we able to hire, if my memory serves me, four employees that are funded through the state? Was it four?
There are employees 7 that are currently state employees, including 8 Mr. Cross and myself. 9 HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: And that 10 started what, 1999? 11
I think they originally started covering 4, now we are up to 13?
No. I think the original proposal was specific to what it is today, Madam President. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: And, Madam President, as you know, the original theory is that the 13 would expand to all 2500 employees. But, that's never happened.
I recall. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo. 42 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to touch on that, also, just to bring us up to date on that Supreme Court issue. Because we are starting to find out that the state owes the city a lot of money, and in other areas, also. What do you think we can do? Again, maybe our approach should be, let's not go after it all all at once, but let's start chopping away a little bit at the state to get some funding. What do you think we can do as a Council, what the Administration can do as an Administration, and collectively what can we do to start the process and get some funding headed this way? Because it amazes me. It is very difficult to try to explain to my constituents how the State Supreme Court could rule on the funding of the courts, and no one pay attention. What have we done to try to make an 43 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 issue of this? I really haven't seen anyone really get extremely aggressive on this particular point. We have kind of, at least from my observation, we have accepted the fact that, like you have just mentioned, that the legislature isn't receptive to funding either specific courts or all the courts to some degree. What do you think we can do? Because I don't think it is fair that the Supreme Court ruled, and the state is ignoring that. Maybe they need to come before you, Judge, I don't know. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Well, Councilman, perhaps a resolution from this body presented to the AOPC, the Administrative Office of Pennsylvania Courts, expressing your concerns about this ongoing situation of lack of funding, and asking the AOPC to take aggressive action with the state, at least recommending that. I can tell you that the AOPC has 44 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 heard from all 60 judicial districts with concerns such as you have expressed.
Judge, do you think we could be -- again, to start the process, are there maybe some creative ways that when the court sentences someone that goes to the state for incarceration, that maybe we could come up with some type of a criteria that says, okay, we want to be paid for this particular activity. And if you could come back at us with that resolution to be specific in areas that we should -- if we start our list, and the top 100, let's start at No. 1 and say, this is an area where the state, it is real obvious that they should be supporting our system here in the City of Philadelphia. Do you think that's possible? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilman, I will work with you on a resolution. I will find out the language that should be used or could be used for something like that.
Because I am sure 45 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 that there are areas in the system that are specific and supportive of the state. Am I correct to say that there are people that are sentenced that are taken out of our system because of the magnitude or the sentencing guidelines, and they go directly to their incarceration as directly at the state level?
And the state assumes that. So they are assuming that part of the burden?
Yes, they are. Once a defendant is transferred to a state facility, then the state assumes that responsibility.
Could you just educate me for a second. What does a person need to do to not go to the city jail versus the state jail?
There is a maximum sentence of two years or more, and that makes it a state-incarcerated sentence. So anyone that's sentenced to to years or greater -- 46 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
No; goes to the state. Anything less than two years as a maximum sentence can stay in the county.
I am sure that, after today, you could get together and you could come up with some areas where it is very, very obvious that we could appeal to the state. I think we have to start someplace. It is like anything. They owe us. What is the significance of the state's -- could you put a number to what the state -- did this ruling say that they were responsible in total for the funding? What exactly, if you could put a number to the state's responsibility versus the city's responsibility, or is it all the state's based on this ruling? Could you just give us, enlighten us on that?
It is all the judicial districts within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania that were mandated state funding.
What I meant was, 47 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 dollars to this system. Did that ruling suggest -- or, not suggest, did it state that the entire funding should be the state's responsibility?
That is correct. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes, that's correct.
And not one dime has showed up. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Correct.
Well, except for the 13 positions that they have assumed in January of 2000.
And I think if you looked at the Justice Montamura plan, there was a phase-in approach based on positions of how it could occur. And this, the positions that we currently occupy, was the first phase of the 48 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 plan.
One thing I wanted to point out. So it obviously is important to you, if you put it in your remarks here today, is the Traffic Court postage, and I am sure postage throughout the entire system. And the reason I am making this observation to you, as we talk about this, we are finding that many of our agencies within our government are not or -- do they have a person -- do they have a person that is -- I am trying to stay in eye contact with you there. That there is no one in this government that is keeping their eye on the postage rates as they change on a monthly or annual basis. That we find that in many agencies there is one way to send a letter, and it is First-Class Mail. But when you find that there are many ways, with presorted zip codes and bulk rate, and I know that probably in your areas it is very sensitive, you use a lot 49 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 of Certified, I assume, I will tell you, in some of the areas, in some of the agencies, after they looked at it and either worked with the postal service itself or a person with expertise, they were able to absolutely save a significant amount of money in the area of postage. And I assume, is this your entire -- or is this just Traffic Court, $72,000?
That just represents a small piece of Traffic Courts. We are asking for an increase in that amount to Traffic Court postage to continue the initiatives that they started to increase collections.
So this is additional postage expenditures, the additional is 72,000?
Yes. And 52,000 of that expenditure is specific to Certified Mail, which is required. When police officers write citations and can't deliver it to the offender, they are sent to Traffic Court, and then we are 50 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 responsible to send them by Certified Mail to the defendant, by state statute.
A good investment, seriously, other than the certified and the other types of very expensive mail, is to -- I think it would be a great investment to either ask the people from the postal service to come in and look and see what you do. If they provide that service, I don't know. Or a consultant or someone within our government that's already here that really understands where there is a potential to save money. Because in every agency that's looked at it in just the last few months, they tell me that they have identified a significant amount of ways to reduce their postage costs, knowing -- you know, an example. You take a magazine with an article 23 that you want to send someone, and you take it down to the Post Office. And if you don't ask the question, they will tell you it is going 51 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 to be $1.75 to mail it First-Class. But then when you tell them in the envelope it is an educational magazine, it turns out to be, like, 40 cents. So you can imagine that there is a significant amount of money to be saved. And I know you folks watch every dollar over there very carefully, since it is all ours, and I am sure you will if we get some state money, also. But I would really encourage you to look at that, because I think you will be pleasantly surprised that you will be able to get a bigger bang for your buck when it comes to taking advantage of some of the postal regulations that are out there
Thank you. And we will do that. And we have done that in the past, and in fact have had substantial savings in both probation and pretrial. We deliver two bulk mailings to the postal service on a daily basis currently. And Traffic Court is currently working with 52 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 the Office of Administrative Review to examine their bulk mailings, as well, and to reduce costs in that area. And we actually have taken some steps, Councilman, to effectuate changes in Traffic Court already.
That will be great. Because if you look at it as a big universe, and you pull it all together, you could really -- and I am not suggesting we use technology to communicate with many of the people that come before you, but I am talking about the inner-agency stuff, and to use technology to the extreme would be very helpful. Thank you, Madam Chair.
You are welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Good morning, Councilwoman. 53 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Good morning.
On your testimony, you discuss DROP program. You mention that there are certain job classifications that you do not allow to participate. Could you discuss that for us? Please explain why. Also, why are they allowed to be exempt from the program? I was unaware that some agencies are able to opt out of it. Please.
Judicial staff, which is the first area that we have identified, we have asked for an exemption in that area since the city is reimbursed dollar for dollar for all judicial staff. So that would not have an impact. And we are mandated by the numbers that we must provide to the judiciary. I am sorry. Mr. Dubow, maybe, is clarifying your question, and I want to make sure I understand it appropriately. Are you asking that they are in the 54 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 DROP program, and they are not leaving, Councilwoman, or they are in the DROP program, they are leaving, and we are replacing them, and they are exempt from the DROP right-sizing?
Well, your second question is, actually, my followup question.
All of our employees that are in DROP are in the participating categories. Once they finish their DROP-qualifying period, they leave the First Judicial District, they resign, and they are not rehired. So, they do leave. But there are certain categories where we have asked for exemption in replacing those employees; in other words, that they be exempt from the 50 percent that cannot be replaced. And these are the categories that we have identified on . 55 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Is there a rule in place that would prohibit retirees to not be rehired in your department?
Our administrative governing Board ruled on that issue, and we have decided that DROP employees will not be rehired.
When the DROP program was initiated. It was within the last year that the ruling came about. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilwoman, as you know, I am the Chair of the Administrative Governing Board. And we have discussed that, and we have made it pretty clear to our First Judicial District that once someone retires on DROP, they are not rehired.
They are not rehired within the First Judicial District?
That's correct. 56 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Just by way of background, I am developing some of these questions from Friday, April 23, where the Philly News, the article that talked about cashing in on pension loophole. So just know that's the framework from which I am speaking. On of your testimony, you mention legislative increases in judicial complement, that's a quote, legislative increases in judicial complement, and that you are seeking funding for staff related to that. Can you provide more detail for us on that?
Yes. The judiciary was increased by three positions. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: We used to have 90 judges on our Court of Common Pleas, now we have 93. But that's by state legislature.
I see. That explains that. Could you provide to the Chair a numerical list that breaks down by race and gender employees who work as probation 57 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 officers; indicate, if you would, how many are male, female, African-American, Caucasian, Hispanic, and Asian. Please provide separate breakdowns for both the adult and juvenile probation. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Sure.
And also show me on this listing those who are supervisors by race and by gender.
There is an enormous concern raised by some of us here, and a number of individuals at the state level, that the supervisory leadership levels of both juvenile and adult probation in no way reflect the makeup of the majority of those who come through those doors. And, so, this is an attempt to see what the facts are first, and proceed from there.
One last thing. If I read your testimony correctly on , you outline that there is an $8.6 58 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 million difference from the proposed budget and what you are asking for. Can you please list out for me what is included in that 8.6 million. And I am curious to know, of that, how much of that are mandated dollars? I mean, it is like the city budget where there is no wiggle room because of mandates, then you have the discretionary portion of the city's budget. Could you break this 8.6 million down somewhat the same way?
Well, I'm not sure we can do that, to be honest with you, because we are not sure how the city came to the 106. What they did was, they initially proposed a budget of 111 in December, and then further reduced that amount by an additional 5 percent in their second submission when the Mayor presented his testimony. So the only thing the city did was identify the 5 percent reduction in each of the class categories, and did not identify how those reductions should occur. 59 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 I believe they left that up to each agency. And we are currently reviewing where it is that we would have to make cuts. And I mentioned to Council President Verna some of the areas that we have considered thus far.
Okay. Finally, an update, if you will, on the space -- this was an issue expressed and advocated heavily by Councilman Ortiz, and we actually participated in meetings where you gave us an update on the space of where victims and those who act out, if you will, around the issue of domestic violence. Can you just give us an update on that? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes. Councilwoman, I touched briefly on this with Councilman Nutter earlier. But we have made significant improvements in the area that you and I visited over at 34 South 11th Street. There are private offices for interviewing. The plexi-glass window, there are now two of them. And when somebody initially goes in for intake, and we have made 60 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 it a more private area.
So are you pleased with the progress to date? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: We are pleased with the progress to date. We have also increased security in that area, with more individuals walking through the hallways, as well as the plexi-glass and cameras and surveillance equipment. Yes.
Okay. If there is no violation, I guess, of confidentiality, in the meeting where you came to the decision that it is not appropriate or is inappropriate or for whatever reason retirees from your department will not come back to that department, do you recall the reasoning or rationale that you moved to to render that particular decision?
Yes. I think our thought process was that the individual entered DROP with the thought that they made a commitment to leave employment at the end of that four-year period, or some time prior to 61 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 that, at their discretion. And that since they made that commitment, that we would hold them to that and evaluate whether the position needed to be filled. And if it did need to be filled, certainly we would fill it at an entry level, at a savings, so that we could generate additional savings within the budget.
Okay, then. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: They signed a contract, you know, when they entered into the DROP program.
All right. Thank you for your explanation. Thank you, Madam President.
You are welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman O'Neill.
Thank you, Madam President. Good morning. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Good morning. 62 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
I was hoping to get into some technology issues, but I will leave them aside initially. I have had some conversations. And I will be honest, they are both from probation officers in adult court and union members, union officials. So I don't want to pretend it is just coming innocently off the street. Although I know quite a few, and was in juvenile probation for several years some time ago. As a juvenile. I think I was that young then. Could you just describe -- the frustration, let me just give you the frustration level. And I don't know adult probation, juvenile is different, you have to go to the homes, you have to do home visits, it is a big part of the job. And the questions I have gotten, or the frustrations are, that they are kind of locked in the office all day, caseloads are 63 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 too high, but the inability to get out and make visits, contacts in the community; unlike the juvenile, which has branched more into the community than it was when I was there. And their requests, or some of the requests, are for staggered hours. People work all day. If they work all day, they can't get into the office. If there is something going on in the community, the probation officer can't get out there, if they are confined to a 9:00-to-5:00 schedule. There is also some issues with the number of vehicles available because of the number of probation officers and caseloads. But if you could just talk about that. I am sure this isn't the first time you have heard it, but I would like to get something on the record. Because the court is doing a pretty good job from a historical perspective. You can always do better, I am sure they could find a lot of things wrong. But with so much progress being 64 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 made, would I rather speak in a constructive way with you about this, because I am sure you have some ideas and plans.
Well, ironically, I could address the vehicles first. It is ironic that the Managing Director's Office is telling us that we underutilize our vehicles. And we could always use more vehicles for probation officers so they can go out into the field. We do have vehicles that are available. We have visitation policies that must be followed. We insist that two probation officers go out in each vehicle on the adult side when they do make visitations. And, quite frankly, we have quite limited by the number of visitations that can occur on a daily basis by the number of automobiles that are available to us.
We do not approve that they use their own cars. And that's because we don't want to put them into a position 65 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 where they have to lie to their insurance carrier that they are not using their vehicles for business purposes, and then, God forbid, something happens and they are liable. So that's why, at least on the adult side, we are insisting that they use the city-provided vehicles to make the daily visitations. The vehicles are available off hours, if the visit is warranted during those hours. And if there are extra vehicles available, we will certainly make them available to the officers. Now, in truth, adult probation is different than juvenile probation. It is more of a centralized process, and there is not a need for the home -- the frequent home visitations that there are with juveniles because of the interaction between the parent and the juvenile. And that's important for the juvenile probation officer, to get into the home and see the family situation, as opposed to the adult situation. 66 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 We will make available, and I think we are making available currently, flex hours for those probationers that have probation -- or, probation officers that have probationers that work full time. Now, we may do it in a little bit of a different fashion that some of our employees wish it to be done. And that is, look, I am not going to hide the fact that we are cost-conscious. And we have to be cost-conscious, given the flavor of what we are discussing here today. We wouldn't be doing our jobs prudently if we didn't consider the cost associated with everything that we do on a daily basis. We have made available in the past one officer from each unit. And the officers are assigned to units geographically in line with the way police districts and police officers are assigned, so that we can build some rapport in that respect. And we have made one officer available from each unit to see clients that 67 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 can't come in during normal working hours in off hours. Now, the problem is that we want to use flex time hours, and many of the officers want to use comp time or overtime for those purposes, and that's understandable. I have been there, and I have experienced that myself. But, again, we are trying to reduce the comp time, we are trying to reduce the overtime. And we have to balance the scales, if you will, in order to do it appropriately. Now, I know that Administrative Judge Fitzgerald has directed that we make more flex hours, or, if necessary, comp hours or overtime, available for adult probation officers to see clients that are working full time. We encourage them to work full time, obviously. And there is no reason that we would encourage them to miss work just so they could make a probation officer's appointment. So we will look at that. We will expand it, if necessary. But, at the same 68 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 time, we are committed to being frugal in that area, when it is necessary.
Let me just mention the other area that comes to mind that I have heard about. And that is that, I know this is a little sensitive from a management standpoint, but that, while the caseloads have grown and the probation officers haven't increased to the same proportion, that you are kind of top heavy with supervisory personnel, almost to the point where there is, you know, too much at the top and too little at the bottom. We hear the same thing about the police department. I think it is valid on the police department. I don't know as much about the probation operation. So if you could comment on that, I would appreciate it.
Sure. And, in fact, in 1995, we did a review of the adult probation department and came to that very conclusion. And, as a result, as co-chief 69 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 probation officers and others in higher-ranking managerial positions have left, we have not replaced them and spread their responsibilities amongst other managers within the department. And, as a result, have been able to actually increase the PO level at the adults -- on the adult side, so that we could try to reduce caseloads, instead of having them increase. I mean, it is no secret that there are more and more people that are being assigned to probation. We are dealing with over 60,000 probationary cases at the adult probation level, and that consists of about 52,000 individuals. And we only have 250 probation officers to assign to those individuals. So, we have looked at that. We have made some dramatic changes at the adult probation level, as far as management is concerned. And it is our position that we will continue to review that as people leave, or we can find other assignments for them 70 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 within the agency that they would be good at managing. So, we are committed to that. Now, they are currently doing the same thing on the adult probation side. Administrative Judge Field -- I am sorry, on the juvenile side. Excuse me. Administrative Judge Field recently replaced Retiring Chief PO Ken Hayle with a new chief probation officer. And they collectively are looking at the structure of juvenile probation and how it can better support our operations by increasing line staff and decreasing management, managerial positions, through attrition or other means, as far as transfer.
One technology question. There is an organization I am very active with, Public Technology, Incorporated, out of Washington, D.C., that is sort of a joint venture with the National Counties Association, and National Legal of Cities, and the ICMA, the International City and County Managers Association. 71 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 One of the things they try to do, or maybe the thing they most try to do, is incubate private-sector technologies using task forces of real line people all around the country that work in large cities and counties, and try to make them accessible to other member jurisdictions, and even smaller cities and counties. The one item that I want to ask you about is, one of the great difficulties in this country, from homeland security, from policing, from public safety vantage points, is the inability for systems to talk to each other and databases that can't be accessed. Everybody wants their own control. There is at least one company that is way out there in front of everyone else that is working in Louisiana right now, state, federal, state, and all local jurisdictions, and has managed to develop software that seems to have 360 databases, national, state, county, local, talking to each other. And when the police officer pulls up to a car, files the license plate, within 72 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 about five seconds all 360 of those are accessed. That police officer knows the person in that car, just about everything about them except some very private things, but anything they have ever done in the criminal area or in the court area. And in a very small town in Louisiana, they had their first person on the terror watch list came up. But saw some examples of, you know, approaching a car where this person has nothing to lose. If they didn't know about the information, homicides, you know, on the run from these different things, that officer is in a much different degree of jeopardy than if they are staying in their car waiting for help because they know they have a truly dangerous felon on their hands. They are looking for pilots to do in large cities or counties. We happen to be a city and county. The concern of courts and police departments is, naturally, control over their information; who gets it, who doesn't get it. 73 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 You certainly don't want to be giving information away to the enemy. I am told that both our police department and our courts have been resistant because of that fear. But I am also told that it is an unrealistic fear; that you can decide, the courts, the police department, who has access to your information and who doesn't. And I am just wondering how I go about trying to get you into the mix. Because pilots are free, that's the nicest part of them. And somebody else, you know, the private sector, is paying for them because they think they have something to sell to someone else. Dianna Neff is very familiar with it, our MOIS Director. And I am just wondering if I can, can I get you two together to --
Well, sure. We are happy to participate in any initiative in that endeavor. But I thought we already were in the mix, quite frankly. 74 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Just so you understand, some historical perspective about sharing information. We actually started in 1995, as a result of the Criminal Justice Center initiative, a review with all of the criminal justice partners, and came up with a solution to sharing information at the front end that has been unprecedented to date, and that is our PARS system. And there are a number of people that want access to PARS throughout the city on a daily basis today. And what PARS does, it electronically transfers information from the police department, to the district attorney and pretrial services, and then to the Municipal Court in order to effectuate the preliminary arraignment process. And one of the things that we completed during that process was the understanding that each of us owns certain information that is germane to our operations. And we understand that the police 75 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 own the police photo number, and that's the photo number that will carry through the process from beginning to end. And that we will accept that police photo number as correct. And what we do is, we build information within PARS to the point where the preliminary arraignment occurs. And we all share that information appropriately. And there are security measures that are built in within that process. So we all -- we are already sharing data in that respect. And then the PARS system populates the court system and other areas to create the Municipal Court --
I am always concerned when you tell me -- and I am sure you are being honest -- that you are participating, or you think you are participating. 76 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 And I just on Saturday have spoken to the director of our MOIS and asked, are we in this, and the answer is no. 5 And the reason is that the courts and the police are nervous about -- and I will be kind saying, "nervous about," because I was actually told there was a refusal. But how do I get you together with -- I will take it one at a time. You, the courts, together with MOIS to make sure that they know you are okay with this? I mean, this is almost futuristic stuff. There is no other system I am aware of on the federal, state level that even talks about connecting all these systems. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilman, I am going to first say, at of our testimony, you will see a brief description of PARS and you will see a brief description of JNET. But in a more elaborate vein, along the lines you are talking about, the Commonwealth has a statewide automated system using the internet, and we are connected. 77 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 If someone is arrested in Philadelphia, in Pittsburgh they will know.
Judge, I understand. But if you have seen -- I will give you the name. The company's name is Think Stream, that's who we are trying to do the pilot with. You are talking about two databases you just mentioned, yours and the states. We are talking about 360 databases, basically every possible database that a criminal could be, you know, involved in. And for law enforcement, for homeland security, I don't think there is anything out there that approaches this. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: We are willing to meet with them. That's not even an issue. We are willing to do that.
My only concern is where Dianna may have gotten her information that we are resistant, since no one has 78 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 approached me to discuss this.
The courts might be, someone other than you. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Madam President, the courts, for being here, and your administrators. I want to thank you first for taking time out a few months ago. The judge was so kind to come visit me and talk to me about the work that they do, given that I am a freshman around here. And we spent about two hours together. It was a very candid discussion about a number of issues and particular concerns of mine. One of my concerns were the service to limited English proficient people, specifically people, Spanish-speaking people. 79 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 And we went on for a good while to talk about that issue of, you know, interpreters, and how people were being welcomed into the courts and so forth. So what the good judge did is, she sent me a 24-page report. And I appreciate that a lot. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Mr. Councilman, I hope I answered your questions in that report.
I had prepared a list of questions, and you answered them in this well-put booklet on your work on the issue of limited English proficiency and the city's initiative to implement this program through Global Philadelphia, mostly, in all of our city services, including the courts. How many people visit Family Court in a year? Do you keep that type of data? How many people come through your Family Court division in a year? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: I can tell you how many cases.
We can tell you how 80 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 many cases are scheduled on a yearly basis.
But how many people actually attend those cases, the only way we would be able to know that is to ask the sheriffs at the front door to give us a --
Okay. I see in your report on the limited English proficiency, you state, I just want your -- just give me, for my purposes, a better understanding what you mean by this. It says the courts -- this is, Madam President, on the courts, this is on your booklet entitled, Engaging Persons With No Or Limited English Proficiency in the Judicial Process. 81 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 On , Background on the Organization, the second paragraph you state, "The courts must work to enable persons with no or limited English proficiency, (LEP), to participate. And these efforts are not limited to the strict verbatim translation of languages. All parties proceeding should fully understand the nature of the events and their part in the process and eventual outcomes." I don't want to bring up, you know, something that comes up that might be a concern, but can you define what you mean by this, please? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Certainly. I think I understand. If you look at the brochures, 10, videos, forms, brochures
I saw that. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: That's the sort of background we provide to anyone who comes into the court, courthouse. So it could be a family member or a friend, someone in the audience. 82 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 But for the individual who is on trial or has a specific proceeding, those individuals do have the verbatim translation of the language. But the second sentence there, "all parties to the proceeding should fully understand the nature of the events," that's to give them background as to what it is they are involved in.
Does the Civil Rights Act say that there has to be verbatim translation? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: I'm not familiar with the Civil Rights Act that you are referring to.
The Civil Rights Act on limited English proficiency of 1964. This is where this is derived from. I didn't look it up, either. But I think -- I don't want to guess, but I will look it up on my end. It lends itself to saying, you know -- correct me if I am wrong -- I don't mean it as a positive or a negative, that, 83 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 regardless, the show must go on when you come to court. In other words, if we don't -- if one of our eight translators are not available, and if you are not ready, knowing that you are going into an English-speaking court, you know, we are not definitely obliged to provide you at that moment because the case, you know, has to go on. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: That is not the approach we take, Councilman.
I am not saying the approach. I am just saying when I read this account, it says all parties to proceedings should fully understand the nature of the event and their part in the process and eventual outcome." HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Right.
So I could go there, you know, Spanish speaking, with very little English proficiency, and the interpreter -- and I know this has happened as recent as last year -- the interpreter is not available. 84 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilman, the first sentence says, we are not limiting to verbatim translation; that is, we are doing more than the verbatim translation. Both sentences need to be read together. So that as someone comes to the courthouse and has limited English proficiency, what we as a court do, we don't limit, do not limit, to the verbatim translation; rather, we try to ensure that they fully understand the nature of the offense, and we explain to them their part in the process. So we have an expansive approach, not a limiting approach.
Okay. So besides the strict verbatim, there are other means as well as your -- HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Correct.
I had judge Lynne on my radio show one Sunday last year, and he told me he had this new system where he can dial and get a translator on the phone. 85 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 And I told him, well, we need to get that word out there so people -- and get our judges, all the judges, to use it, as well. So that last sentence does not imply that -- I mean, what happens if you don't have a translator and you cannot communicate in the language, the principal language, of the person? Does the court proceeding continue? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Oh, no. 11 No. 12 As a matter of fact, Councilman, we have a procedure where if an individual knows in advance that they have a court date, let's say, tomorrow or Friday, they can -- if they desire, they can call to the courtroom in advance, their attorney will call, and say, "I have someone who speaks Spanish," or -- Spanish is easier. But let's say French or Creole or Chinese or whatever. And we, within the court, make arrangements to have that type of interpreter present in the courtroom on the day a case is listed. Or at the first listing, there is a 86 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 continuance request for a specific date and time to address the specific language that's needed. The telephonic service that you are referring to, you will see on , 3.4, that's what Judge Jimmy Lynne was referring to. You can see all the different languages that were requested in Year 2003, from A to Z. There were a total of 687 different requests. And this is just using the telephone services. And the word is out there. Certainly we have spent almost a million dollars in the past year for many different languages. Now, this is just telephone services.
Yes. And I see in that graph, which was a point that you and I discussed -- HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: What page?
I am sorry. OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 8, Madam President. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes.
That one point that we discussed was that it is very important for us in this great society that we live in to be welcoming of immigrants of so many parts of the world. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes.
But in our city, what we have is a tremendous increase. While others are leaving Philadelphia, we see that a Spanish-speaking population is moving into this area, now primarily from the area of Central America, particularly Mexico. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes.
And you will see by even on your graph, on your statistical chart here, on , that the need for Spanish-speaking translation was almost 5 to 21 more so than all the other languages combined. 22 And that's a stark reality of the situation in 23 our city. 24 And it is very indicative of the 25 growth of -- without acknowledging the growth 88 1 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 of other immigrant communities, but of the growth of this Spanish-speaking community coming from Latin America, it is really increasing in this region. One of the things that you pointed out on the front page of this report is that Philadelphia remains the only Pennsylvania county that a terms to provide interpreter services to the courts in a systematic manner. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes.
Is there a plan to establish certification procedures, and what kind of time frame are we looking at? So although Philadelphia County has yet to establish certification procedures, has developed a model that may prove helpful elsewhere in the Commonwealth. How far ahead? I am very glad that we are taking this initiative, and it is very commendable. How far are we ahead from certification? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Well, Councilman, if you look at , there is a -- 89 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Now I have two of your reports. Which one? The Spanish report -- HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Of the interpreter report, . The certification procedure is a statewide procedure. And, so, it is not Philadelphia, it is not limited to Philadelphia. You will see under Recommendation 19, the comment, response, there is no 13 requirement for certification of interpreters in Pennsylvania. However, all of our First Judicial District staff Spanish interpreters have passed a New Jersey certification. And, also, the Delaware examination has been -- in the State of Delaware, rather, there is a certification, and many of the contract interpreters have passed one or the other. So within Philadelphia, we do not have a certification, but we model and certainly adopt the New Jersey and Delaware. Additionally, there is a Senate bill 90 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 currently in place in Harrisburg, Senate Bill 3 669, I believe -- we referred to it at and top of 24 -- where the concept of testing and certification has been introduced in the State Senate in Pennsylvania, and we certainly support that.
I think you have done a very excellent job, and the job that you do is a very difficult job in the court system and so complex. But my whole intent in our meeting and during this proceeding is to just be able to share with you how this growing immigrant community is going to impact on how we live in this city and how government services people. And I am glad that this Administration has taken the lead through Global Philadelphia to address this issue of limited English proficiency. And I thank you again for the report you forwarded to me. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilman, thank you very much. I would like to believe that I am particularly sensitive to the concerns you express about the immigrant 91 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 community because both of my parents were immigrants. And they met in Philadelphia, and I was born and raised in Philadelphia, but my mother's native language was French. And I certainly saw, as a child, what she had to go through trying to speak with an accent, and trying to work things out, and the difficulties when she went to public offices or city offices. And I believe our whole First Judicial District has been very sensitized to the issues relating to race, gender, and language barriers. And we have tried to eliminate those or minimize those in whatever way we can.
Thank you, Madam President. On you talk about, let me get back to that, the staff to support legislative increase in judicial complement. Can you 92 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 explain that to me?
Oh, this is an increase in the judicial complement from 90 to 93, and the staff required to service those three additional judges.
How much extra is that? It doesn't say how much extra it is.
It is $305,000. It is in the budget on . And, Councilman, that is a dollar-for-dollar reimbursement from the state, so it is cost neutral.
Okay. Thank you. The second question is, . And I think Council O'Neill beat this one up pretty good. But future technology needing 93 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 upgrades. I think what Councilman O'Neill spoke about was one end of it. What about the other end? And it may happen, excuse me for my ignorance. If you have to be in court for something, maybe something with your family, it may be something that happens to you, witness, victim, whatever, is there a website we can go to without using hallwatch.org?
Absolutely. And every one of our criminal cases that are scheduled are on the website, as well as civil and civil docketing, orphans court, and Family Court.
Is it to the point where you could go to that today and find out what judge is sitting in what courtroom tomorrow?
Those were two easy ones. Here is a third one. Security. 94 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 You talk about security in City Hall, . Actually, you talk about City Hall. Are you responsible for all security over the Criminal Justice Center, or is that the sheriff?
That's the sheriff, although we share responsibility in the courtroom.
So getting into the building, with the elevators and the whole screening process is the sheriffs. But up in the courtroom it is the sheriffs to one point? Is there any point where you would be in charge of security?
We help with the courtroom security, obviously, and controlling the crowds and the individuals that are coming into the courtroom, because the sheriff is responsible for the defendant that's in the courtroom.
Thank you. They are all my questions. Thank you very much.
You're welcome. 95 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. Question with regard to court issues. We have a teen court. And the President and I were both at a meeting with the D.A. Does the D.A. sponsor some court programs and the court sponsor other court programs, or are they all paid for by the court? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Which court program?
We have night court and then they have teen court. They may have teen court. I think I saw it. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Let me just check here.
Is the teen court perhaps something that is administered through the District Attorney's Office, and utilizes, 96 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 I don't want to say, judges pro tem, but volunteers to sit as judges in the districts? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: There is also something that I have read about in the high schools themselves, where the students are involved in a court.
They do have that. But these things don't reach you, they don't -- HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: No. 12
Okay. All right. There are three instances. Okay. Thank you.
Good morning, Councilman. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Good morning.
I want to ask 97 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 you a couple of questions about community service programs. I think I probably ask this question every budget session. First, can you talk to me about the categorization of community service programs, if you have them on the various courts, in Family Court? Talk to me about that. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: What do you mean by "community service"?
My understanding, that there are a number of individuals who are given lesser crimes, and they are required -- they are given community service sentencing, as opposed to jail time. And every year I ask the question trying to get a handle on who is responsible, because I understand they may be different categories of community service and different sentencing requirements. And I walk away never knowing who is in control of all of this.
Well, community court itself was specifically designed to address quality-of-life type crimes. And we started 98 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 out addressing summary offenses, and it has been expanded since its inception in February 2002 to include some misdemeanor.
I am familiar with community court. I am, actually, on the Board of that. But prior to us even having community court, individuals have received community service.
That's correct. In the adult probation department, for instance, we have individuals that interface with the recreation department and other agencies within the city and with DHS and CODAAP and other areas where there may be defendants that are sentenced to community service. And, as a result, we'll go out on Saturdays to clean lots and recreation centers and things of that nature with the defendants that are sentenced to those probationary periods. So that we have some supervisory responsibility at the adult probation level to 99 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 do things of that nature. But, it is limited in scope.
Is it the probation department that's in charge of that program? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: No. 8 Councilman, a judge, any judge, sitting in adult court may sentence an individual, if it is appropriate, to a probationary sentence, let's say months probation, and that 12 defendant must do a certain number of hours of community service. When that sentence is imposed, then that defendant goes to the adult probation department and has a probation officer. And then, as Mr. Cairone has said, the probation officer coordinates a community service and provides the judge with a count, you know, defendant so and so has done one half of their community service, up to the 100 percent.
Is there any one individual in the probation department that's responsible for crafting that program? Because the reason I am asking this 100 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 question, my understanding is that there are substantial amount of individuals who have received alternative sentencing, i.e., community service programs. And I never -- I don't know who is responsible for the entire program. You have just said that a probation officer gets an individual. And I am assuming that that person just lends that person to a particular organization. But one of the concerns that I have, given the realities of our budgetary process, we are going to probably be in a position where we will not be able to deliver a substantial number of services, particularly as it relates to labor. We had Fairmount Park Commission in here the other day, and I know that that's going to be a union issue somewhere down the line. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilman, are you suggesting --
With Sheriff Green sitting here, I remember his initiative 101 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 years ago, and the unions rose their head and said, no way. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilman, are you suggesting that the judges should sentence individuals to delivering -- to picking up trash or cleaning up the park?
Yes. I mean, we have Fairmount Park Commission in here, and they were talking about their inability.
We actually do some of that at the rec centers and in vacant lots in areas when we are contacted, and we interface through other city agencies to perform those services. Now, we in the past have considered trash pickup and things of that nature. But we were always reminded of the union issues, and that's why we have stayed away from it.
So when I contact an organization -- and I hate to use the name, because they may get in trouble -- but there is an organization, Self Help, Incorporated, as an example. On occasion we contact them, we have 102 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 a community cleanup, and they bring a group of individuals. And I assume they are under some sort of a program, and they help us clean up the vacant lots and other things in the neighborhood. Are they a part of that program? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Not necessarily.
We may interface with them on occasion. But we try to work with the recreation department directly and other city agencies that require these services. I can send you the name of someone in adult probation and juvenile probation that you can contact. I will send it through the Council President, so everyone can have it, and then we can work with you toward that end.
Councilman Clarke, does the Managing Director -- I have been working with an organization that I am involved with, and we work pretty much through the Managing Director's Office. 103 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Are they the clearinghouse? Is the Managing Director the one we should be talking to?
We supervise the individuals, but we work with other city agencies to provide the services. They identify what's needed.
We have done some stuff up in my district. I'm sure Councilman Clarke has, too. When we do stuff, if you are in that halfway house -- when you go up and do some work in Fairmount Park, and actually the place, Councilman Clarke -- it is hard not making eye contact. If you do something with Councilman Clarke or myself, and you go up to a halfway house, if you are a resident of that halfway house, you have so many hours of community probation that's not involved with yours. But the community probation we are 104 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 talking about, or the Councilman is talking about, you could just call the Managing Director and say, look, I want to clean up a rec center this weekend, we have done it many times. Do you have anybody who has community service that needs to be done. You have a lot of people that need community service. Goldsmith, the Managing Director, has none. Here is the problem, as I found it. Years ago -- and this wasn't really be adult probation, but it was with juvenile probation -- someone got caught selling. If Andrew comes to me and this kid has 100 hours, look this way, Andrew, your kid is not old enough for that. We let them slide 50 hours, and he slips me 200 bucks, that happens. So, therefore, that killed that. We have to have people with this organization I work with, they have people that are retired businesspeople, retired military. They are actually the supervisors. They don't pick up a shovel; they are just people that say, you sent me 20 people, and 105 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 everyone worked 8 hours, and this is the name of the people. Massiah-Jackson, I see your picture on your license. And we know you are Joe, and we know who you are. You work your way down. That's strictly how it is. But from what I understand, it was the Managing Director's office that was the middleman, the clearinghouse, for all of this stuff. Is there any truth to that?
That's my understanding. In fact, though, we have developed a relationship with the recreation department, so they do contact us on occasion directly if there is a rec center that needs some service and we can provide it.
Maybe there is something here that needs to be tightened up. And I am going to volunteer myself and Councilman Clarke. Maybe we can do that with this organization that I was working with and maybe a couple he has or some other Council 106 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 members.
Point of information from Councilman Rizzo. Just a point of information. There are a number of Council Members that still want to be recognized, and we have other departments here waiting.
And Councilman Clarke is still up. But I just want to ask quickly. I think I am confused on who is responsible. When I drive out to Montgomery County, I see the bus with all these folks dressed in orange cover-alls picking up paper on the 422. Who is responsible to set up programs like I see in Montgomery County, if we did something like that? There is an organization called Ready, Willing and Able I see picking up papers and trash on the Drive. Do you think 107 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 it is time that we revisit with the unions exactly what we can do and what we can't do? Is it the court's responsibility or is it the jail's responsibility?
Well, I think the programs that you are seeing in Montgomery County and other jurisdictions, especially if they are in orange jumpsuits, is county prison. And I know the state institutions have similar programs, as well. So I think that would be a county prison issue.
So the courts would not be involved. If we wanted to go up to State Road and get 50 inmates to come and clean up the park, would the courts have to say that they are okay to do that? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilman, one of the concerns you might want to consider -- you know, I don't know how far you want to go with this -- is the liability issues, if anyone gets injured while they are -- because you have decided on community 108 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 service. So, it is a concern.
I will wait for my turn back and come back. But I think there is a difference between community service and what I see in Montgomery County. When you are incarcerated and you are loaded on the bus and taken out to the roadway, that's not community service.
I will wait. I want to let my colleague get back to his questions.
Yes, I am a little confused, also, as a result of who has jurisdiction over this program. But I want to make sure that we are talking about the same thing. I'm, essentially, talking about a sentence given by a judge that you are to provide a certain amount of person hours in the community. And I don't know if the judge gets into the level of detail of telling that person what type of community service they are 109 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 supposed to provide. I don't know if that's done.
Not usually. So my question is, once the judge mandates that that person goes to where, a probation officer?
If it is a probationary sentence, then certainly it is supervised by the probation department.
And the probation department works with the Managing Director's Office.
And city agencies, yes. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Depending on the type of community service, yes.
We are contacted. And I am not sure if it is through the Managing Director's Office. But I know that we work extensively with the recreation department in 110 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 doing these things, in cleaning vacant lots and recreation centers. And when we are contacted by either rec leaders or the department heads, then we will provide the services. And we work with them so that we make sure that the probationers do the required service hours that are mandated by the court's sentence. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: I remember one time I used to sentence individuals to paint. In the summertime, you know, like to paint walls, paint the graffiti, things of that nature. So there are agencies within the city that our probation department has contact with. Because somebody has to keep the hours and keep the time that these individuals go out.
Right. All right. Can we do this, because I am afraid I am going to end up walking away the way I walk away every year on this particular 111 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 question. Can, Your Honor, you assign someone to meet with whomever the Chair designates as appropriate -- and I would like to be in that meeting, if that person is not me -- along with the Managing Director's Office, to sit down and talk about this process in some level of detail. Because I think that if there is a more structured program, I think that we can achieve some good. And I think that it might actually help the individuals who are mandated to provide this community service if it is a more structured program. And then this person could be tracked and, hopefully, at some point integrated into society and into a meaningful job and hopefully never come back into the system. But I am just concerned it appears it is just a, you know, random sentence, and the person is given to a particular officer, and they are thrown somewhere, where we may need them. And from what I hear, more often 112 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 than not we don't utilize that particular resource, the intention of the program.
We did utilize it to the tune of in excess of 58,000 last hours out of community court. So, it is not like we are not utilizing it.
Community court is a different animal. Community court is a very structured program. Because, as I said, I sit on that Board. And that's the way you do it. It is a structured program that provides assistance in terms of individuals getting their GED, individuals getting any drug treatment, activity is provided. But what I understand, there is a whole other community service mandate that doesn't have that type of structure. And maybe we ought to send people through community court, maybe that's makes sense. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: It depends on the degree of guilt. So, for example, community court, as you are familiar with, is not only -- tends to 113 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 be misdemeanor cases. But we could find someone who has been found guilty at a felony level, with a longer sentence, where there is some combination of jail time, as well as community service time. But what we will do -- and I will stay in touch with Madam President, Council President -- and we will get a group together with probation department, the Managing Director, and with you or her.
And I want Councilman Clarke to be present, because this is an issue that comes up every year. And I think we ought to finally get some response and work it out. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: We will be happy to do that.
Real briefly, one last question. Traffic Court, you indicated in your testimony that that's a part of revenue enhancement portion of your budget. I am assuming that over the last couple of years, 114 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 since live stop was implemented, there was a substantial amount of revenue taken in by Traffic Court? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Yes.
And, subsequently, a substantial number of vehicles sold at auction. Talk to me about that process. What money goes where, first of all? I understand a lot of people, we implemented this amnesty program, and people were standing in line around the corner to come in to pay off their traffic tickets.
We are not involved in the sale of the vehicles, that's through the Parking Authority. But, obviously, we are involved in the citation process and the collection. And I mentioned in my testimony, just over the last two years the Traffic Court has enhanced their collections by over $4.4 million over the last two fiscal years. And we anticipate that it will continue to increase with the initiatives that 115 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 they have developed. And one of the things that we --
Well, we have an electronic citation program that we are working on now with the Philadelphia Police Department that will enable us to get the citation into the Traffic Court computer system more quickly, and we will be able to process it more quickly. And we think THAT that will enhance collections. And we have had some awareness programs that we have initiated in the past, such as the amnesty program. And we anticipate that we will continue to have programs like that.
No, I didn't say that. I said we anticipate doing programs of that nature in the future. We are not getting ready to do one now.
I wanted to let 116 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 my folks know, if we were going to do that. One last question. In your testimony -- you may not be able to answer this, but it is in your testimony on -- is it percent reduction in ticketing 7 activity by the police? What do you attribute 8 that to? 9 HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Well, 10 Councilman, we cannot address why there is a 11 reduction in ticketing by the police. 12 But we are very proud of the fact 13 that we have increased the revenues collected. 14 And we know that this Council is sensitive to 15 that. And we have increased the revenues 16 collected. 17 So that I think last year $30 18 million was collected, 15 million going to the 19 city and the other half going to the state, 20 based on Traffic Court's efforts. 21
It was just an 22 odd number, given the aggressive nature of some of the initiatives that have been put in place by, actually, some Council -- Council passed the live stop ordinance some time ago. 117 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 I will ask the police department about that. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you, Madam President. Good morning. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Good morning.
About a week from now we will be discussing tax reform for a couple of days. And one of the things being considered will be property taxes. Currently the Board of Revision of Taxes is situated within the judicial branch. And as we consider any number of different property tax bills and revamping the whole property tax system, there have been proposals in the past and may be proposals in the future that discuss the elimination of BRT and the shifting of those functions to the executive branch of government. Can you tell me how you feel about 118 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 those proposals and what value is having the BRT situated within the judicial branch has? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Councilman, the Board of Judges appoints the members who sit on the Board of Revision of Taxes and Board of Review. However, that Board of Revision is independent, it is not a branch of the judiciary. And we, meaning the judges, have no responsibility, no oversight responsibility, in any manner.
Well, likewise, neither do we as a legislative branch or the executive branch. So I guess my question is, you say you appoint the Board, and then it is an independent agency. I guess what I am saying is, as we look to revamp the property tax system, how it should be constructed, is there any particular value in keeping it as it is, in the judicial branch, even if it is just a matter of the Board of Judges appointing the Board of Revision of Taxes? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Well, 119 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 certainly our judges appreciate the fact that -- I believe it was the city Charter, I'm not sure where that power and authority first was created. Well, all I can say is, we appreciate that. However, I think the value of having an independent body is certainly -- takes the pressure off of the other bodies, if they did have oversight.
It actually does not take the pressure off of it, particularly if we are going to move to a land value tax. And if we then have to begin setting tax rates on an annual basis, it is going to fall in the lap of the executive and the legislative branch. So is there any particular value you have in holding onto it? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: We have not discussed that among our judges because it just hasn't come up.
Thank you. 120 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Thank you, Madam President. Councilman Ramos' line of questioning triggered some additional questions I have with regards to my request for a breakdown by gender and ethnicity of the composition of the adult and juvenile probation. Could you provide a visual for me, a table of organization, so I can actually see the inter-relatedness of those departments for both juvenile and adult probation, number one. Number two, is it accurate that the President Judge is elected by your peers? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Correct.
How does the Administrative Judge happen? Who is responsible for either that appointment or the election? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: The Administrative Judges of Common Pleas Court and Municipal and Traffic Court, when they did 121 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 have Administrative Judges, they are appointed by the State Supreme Court.
Okay. What is the defining difference between the role of the President Judge and the roles or responsibilities of the Administrative Judge? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: The Supreme Court has Rules of Judicial Administration, which are printed in our rule book pretty extensively, which review the responsibilities of the President Judge and the responsibilities of the Administrative Judge. I don't have it, you know, on hand.
Let me ask a more specific question to that. Who is ultimately responsible for the either professional development or promotion of probation officers in those two worlds, juvenile probation and adult probation? Who makes the ultimate decision? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: The Administrative Judge of each division.
Thank you, Madam President. Thank you. 122 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Thank you, Madam Chair. Longer than we thought. I would like to go back to the Montgomery County model, where you see a work force that's provided by, I would assume, the county prison to go out and do some jobs, clean up the roadway, whatever. You can always tell when they are there because the remnants, they leave the little bags for someone to pick up later. But we have an organization in the city already that I see working, it is called Ready, Willing and Able. We create special service districts that, obviously, the unions have to buy into to be okay with it. When a person is sentenced in Philadelphia that goes to a city institution, would the courts have to say that this particular person would be okay to go out and clean up Fairmount Park, clean up a vacant lot, a work detail? I know that for years, since I have 123 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 been a kid, I have been hearing the unions, the unions, the unions. But I think it is about time that someone sits down with the unions and sees what is appropriate here. Because the Fairmount Park is in such disrepair that there are places where you used to be able to walk, where you can't any longer because there are trees across the walking paths. They can't bicycle in certain areas because of the condition of some of the trails. At your level, do you need to do anything to have the Sheriff's Department -- maybe I will ask Sheriff Green. I assume he would have to be responsible for transporting a work force to a particular area to provide that service. What is the court's involvement in creating an environment where we could do that? HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: I am going to start, but then Mr. Cairone will fill in. When a judge sentences an 124 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 individual, first of all, we are not always familiar with everything in that person's background to be sure that they are able to be out on leave, out in the parks, or something of that nature. And we have been asked as judges not to sentence someone, for example, to community service outright; but, rather, to sentence them to have an assessment made as to whether or not they are appropriate for community service or some other type of program. Because, certainly, if someone has a drug problem, a mental health problem, or other issues, they may not be appropriate. But assuming someone is appropriate, then we could have a sentence of county time with some sort of a work program.
Not to interrupt you, but let me make sure I am understanding. In my mind -- and I think I am correct -- community service is in lieu of going to jail. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: No, not necessarily. 125 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Not certainly in the instance that you have provided in Montgomery County.
I don't call that community service. When there is a sheriff's guy with a shotgun, or whatever, when you go into New Jersey, that's kind of like maybe you volunteer just to get out of the place for a few hours. I don't really understand how it works. But I thought many times community service -- so what are you telling me, that it is a combination of jail time and community service?
Don't a lot of judges just give a person 50 hours of community service, and they never go to jail?
Yes. In our county, community service is an alternative to incarceration. It is part of a non-incarcerative sentence. HONORABLE MASSIAH-JACKSON: Or a 126 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 condition of parole.
Or a condition of parole. In other counties, they may couch it differently. They may make it part of an incarceration sentence, as well. But here we are dealing with individuals that are not incarcerated, that are assigned to community service.
I am not talking about that population. I am talking about the ones that are presently -- the inmates that are sitting in a city institution. And, again, I think that the powers to be -- and I am not even sure who they are -- need to get together and figure out what's appropriate. Because if we create special service districts where the private sector, in many cases, are responsible for the maintenance of Broad Street or Roxborough or this one or that one, that the unions aren't necessarily always objecting to everything that we suggest. And I come down the Drive in the 127 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 morning, and I see this Ready, Willing, and Able. They are not municipal workers, as far as I am concerned, and they seem like they are very effective. Because I came down one morning, and it was pouring rain, and they were out working in the rain. So I think it is about time that we revisit this issue, but I won't pretend to even know where to begin.
I think, certainly, for the incarcerated population, there is two types that we have to look at. There is a pretrial defendant, who is in custody for various reasons, but not because of a conviction in the open underlying case, and then there is the sentenced population. So we would certainly have to ask the judges to couch their sentences to particular community service, or to say that the prison is to determine if community service is a viable option. And they can couch their sentences in that vein. 128 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Now, on the pretrial side, the defendants are incarcerated because either there is a detainer lodged against them for violation of probation or parole, or they simply can't make the amount of bail that's been imposed. So I would certainly think that those people are more amenable to that type of service, and then it could be controlled by the prison or the county institution.
So what I am leaving with here today is the fact that the courts would have to be somehow involved at the time of sentencing to guide the institution whether that person should be considered for that program?
Because I was talking to a correctional officer over in one of the counties in New Jersey that told me that they have a list of inmates that are willing to participate in that program, because they would rather be out on the 55 bypass than be wherever they are normally 129 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 during the daylight hours. So, that's interesting. And, then, I guess all we need to do, or at least I need to do, is figure out how to start that conversation. And when the Sheriff comes up, maybe he can enlighten us on some of those programs, on how they work, because I'm not sure. Now that I am thinking, I am recollecting that the jail themselves, the prison themselves, had the bus and the correctional officer overseeing that.
The prison is the one that's responsible for the inmate, so they would have the control over them.
Great. Thank you. Good seeing all of you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Are there any other questions or comments by the members of the committee? Seeing none, thank you so much. You have been extremely patient. Thank you very much. 130 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 The Sheriff's Office is next. Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. SHERIFF JOHN GREEN: I am John Green, Sheriff of the City and County of Philadelphia Good morning, Madam President and members of City Council. Before I start the prepared portion of my testimony, I would like to thank City Council for your courageous resolution in support of a brief moratorium of Sheriff's sales. As you know, we are selling a record number of homes through our mortgage foreclosure sale, and City Council's support for a moratorium assisted a lot of home owners. Thank you very much.
You are welcome. SHERIFF GREEN: Thank you for the opportunity to speak today before this distinguished body and unveil my plan to augment security at the Criminal Justice Center. In light of the increasing 131 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 seriousness of recent incidents at the Criminal Justice Center, I am requesting an appropriation of $15,800,246 for the 2004-2005 budget year, of which $1,715,040 will enable us to hire 45 deputies to supplement our courtroom staff and maintain order. The men and women in the Office of the Sheriff are entrusted with a tremendous responsibility, delivering suspected and convicted criminals to the halls of justice while ensuring public safety. Sheriff's deputies escort men and women charged with criminal activity to courtroom hearings and trials. Once prisoners are delivered to the court, sheriff's deputies provide security for all courtroom proceedings and maintain controlled environments where prisoners interact with the public. In the past three months, the 55 deputies assigned to serve in 55 courtrooms in the Criminal Justice Center have encountered a number of volatile and potentially life-threatening situations. 132 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 In 2003, 243 incidents, ranging from fights, to weapons confiscations, were reported. This year's incident reports are rising and the severity of the challenges facing our personnel is far more grave. Two weeks ago a man in court on a probation violation hearing was shot after he struggled with the deputy sheriff and chased the judge. In March, another defendant on trial for raping and killing a 6 year old slugged one of his defense lawyers. Two weeks later, the defendant tried to smuggle a 6-inch shank into the Justice Center inside his rectum. Earlier that month a defendant charged in the Lex Street murders began yelling during his attorney's closing argument. We later found him naked in the holding cell with his body smeared in his own feces. Finally, deputies apprehended another defendant after he removed the tile in the client consultation room and tried to crawl into the ceiling. 133 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Let me say how proud I am of our deputies who have kept their calm and cool in stressful and dangerous situations. They did their jobs ably. Following an internal review of these incidents, we concluded that the problem was not with the way we work, but, rather, with our current staffing levels. On May 6, 2002, we had a total of 500 prisoners in our charge at the Criminal Justice Center alone. On any given day we need 213 deputies to carry out our responsibilities at the Traffic Court, Common Pleas Domestic Court, Common Pleas Juvenile Court, and the Criminal Justice Center. When the number of deputies sick, on vacation, in training, or on special assignments are factored in, we are routinely short 96 personnel. To ensure public safety and adequate staffing levels, I project we must hire 45 additional deputies so we can assign partners for those who work in the courts and create a 134 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 physical presence that will deter prisoner fights and confrontations. When violence erupts, a single deputy stationed in a courtroom is not able to secure the prisoner, maintain order, and protect bystanders who may be potential targets. Without a secure courtroom, justice cannot and will not prevail. Prior to the opening of the Criminal Justice Center, the Sheriff's Office assigned a minimum of two deputies to each courtroom in City Hall. The Justice Center was designed and built to provide secured centers for holding and transporting prisoners, allowing us to reduce the manpower within the courts. No longer do sheriff's deputies unload and transport prisoners in public view at the southwest corner of City Hall, and no 21 longer are deputies exposed to open outdoor environments that hold grave risk and have the potential of escalating into crisis.
Today prisoners are driven directly into the Center, effectively reducing the risk 135 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 of escape attempt and public diversions. Furthermore, deputies escort defendants through concealed walkways that are inaccessible to the public, that lead from prisoner holding cells directly to courtrooms. This security feature limits interaction between prisoners and the public, which in turn reduces the risk of arguments, assaults, and confrontation in an emotionally charged environment. Additionally, communications were enhanced to give sheriff's deputies greater control and protection. Deputies were equipped are radio handsets that enabled them to radio distress calls immediately and to inform their colleagues of their whereabouts. When prisoners disrupt courtrooms with violent outbursts, as has happened in recent weeks, cameras and other high-tech security devices are of little use. Ultimately, we must rely upon the determination and skill of the deputies in command. The men and women we presently ask 136 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 to secure courtrooms without backup are facing greater risks. When they work alone, they are less able to physically restrain an out-of-control prisoner and more likely to have to draw their weapons. Any time law enforcement officers pull and use their weapons in public, there is potential for human loss and tragedy. The City of Philadelphia's severe budget deficit is forcing every department and office to make tough financial choices. At a time when other jobs are being reduced or down-sized, I am asking to hire new employees. I would not seek these funds if the consequences for inaction were not so severe. M. Pierce Elementary School, many witnesses to the crime were afraid to come forward and testify. If potential witnesses continue to read about prisoner rampages at the Criminal Justice Center, then many more may decide to stay at home and remain silent. We cannot expect witnesses to act 137 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 courageously unless we are willing to make courageous choices required to ensure their safety. Madam President and members of City Council, thank you for this opportunity to speak today regarding the most pressing concerns facing the Philadelphia Sheriff's Office and its personnel. I respectfully request that you provide us with the necessary funding to address our need, to fund new personnel for courtroom security.
Thank you very much. Sheriff, I notice that your department has been cut by $654,000? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes
And you are asking for $1,715,000; is that true? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes.
How many courtrooms do you actually cover, including 138 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Traffic Court? SHERIFF GREEN: Well, we cover 55 -- excuse me, Madam Chair. If I may have Captain Cardamone come to the table to assist in answering specific questions. And Captain Cardamone was drafted into service this morning, so he may not have all of the information.
Good afternoon. Please identify yourself, for the record.
My question was, how many courtrooms does the Sheriff's Office have to cover, including Traffic Court?
It is approximately 86 courtrooms. Now, leaving 86, there is the potential to rise from 86 to 95. And there is approximately 65 courtrooms in the Criminal Justice Center, of which 56 are active at a 139 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 time. That number can go up.
In the Criminal Justice Center, there are 143 deputies assigned, not all performing courtroom functions. SHERIFF GREEN: Madam President, we have a total of 183 deputies.
Now, you say they don't all cover the courtrooms. What do they do?
In the Criminal Justice Center alone -- we will have to break this down by units. The Criminal Justice Center, the Sheriff's Office is available for transportation of prisoners. In effect, we are running a jail, albeit a daytime jail. It takes many staff to operate that jail and maintain the records. You have plant security both within the Criminal Justice Center and with our 140 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 facility in the Northeast that houses all our vehicles. Then you have the courtrooms, the adjacencies, and the like. So when you break the numbers down, we fall far short in maintaining all the courtroom staffing that we would like to keep because of all the other duties. You are, as the Sheriff pointed out, housing anywhere between 350 to 500 inmates each day within the building.
And of the 86 courtrooms that you mentioned, do we have a deputy sheriff in each one of the courtrooms?
As the Sheriff indicated, 45 should bring us up. The initial deployment for the Criminal Justice Center required 56 courtrooms, I think -- I am sorry, 54 courtrooms, 16 adjacencies, which are small 141 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 cell blocks between pairs of courtrooms, and some staffing for additional people for multiple defendants and roving security. That number is at, I believe, 79. We are deploying approximately 50 each day. So to start the day, we are 29 deputies short. Add to that shortness in 1801 Vine Street, who has approximately courtrooms, 11 their staffing may be half to a little bit 12 more. 13 You will not find a presence in the 14 dependent courtrooms at 1801 unless specifically requested, and that would be at the expense of one of the delinquent courtrooms. Traffic Court has, I believe, 5 courtrooms. They do not put a sheriff in every courtroom because, also, they are responsible for maintaining a cell block, plant security, and the like. 34 South 11th Street, I believe, has 10 courtrooms. And, once again, they do not staff every courtroom. There are certain 142 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 courtrooms that are staffed automatically, others by request and need.
Sheriff Green, have you had any conversation at all with the Administration about your budget and how it would impact what you are able to do? SHERIFF GREEN: As late as a few minutes ago I spoke with Rob Dubow, and we are going to get together later on in the week and discuss this matter.
Is this the first time you are having conversation about this? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes; yes. Although my office has been in touch with him, of course, and Tyrone Bynum, who handles our finance office, has frequent discussions with Mr. Dubow. And our conversations started this morning, with me asking him if he knew about the increase that we are asking for. The latest incident occurred after we had submitted our budget request to the Administration, and we had discussed the cut.
It is very 143 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 frightening. It really is a very frightening situation. You mentioned earlier about sheriff's sales. How many sheriff's sales did we have last year? SHERIFF GREEN: The total? I can get that for you, Madam President.
What we had in '03 and what we have had in '04. SHERIFF GREEN: Yes. I can tell you that in March, we were selling over a thousand mortgage foreclosure properties alone.
Thank you, Madam President. Good morning, gentlemen. I would like to continue with President Verna's line of questioning regarding your need for additional personnel. You said you are requesting 45 additional deputies. Are there any current 144 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 vacancies? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes; there are four vacancies.
So the new number would be 41; would that be accurate? SHERIFF GREEN: No; it would be 45. Plus, of course, we assume that we are going to fill the four vacancies.
All right, then. How did you arrive -- given the numbers you just shared with us, 86 courtrooms and you said up to 95? SHERIFF GREEN: I am sorry?
Your deputy there said there are 86 courtrooms that you cover, 86 courtrooms total? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes. And we could go up to 95.
There are 56 active at any one time in the CJC? SHERIFF GREEN: That's correct.
And 143 deputies assigned. Is that around the clock? I mean, is that -- break that down for me. 145 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 SHERIFF GREEN: We have people assigned in our building security component --
24/7? SHERIFF GREEN: -- hours a day. 6 We have deputy sheriffs who are assigned to 7 the parking area, where our vehicles are 8 maintained, 24 hours a day. 9 We have deputies that are on the 10 highway at any given time as late as 11:00 11 p.m. transporting prisoners throughout the 12 state. 13 And then, of course, we have people 14 who work in the buildings, in the actual 15 courtroom security aspect. 16 And I should mention that we 17 actually use people who transport the 18 prisoners in courtroom security. And that is 19 very unusual, based on -- 20
When you say, 21 "people," you mean -- 22 SHERIFF GREEN: Deputy sheriff 23 officers, not prisoners. 24 We actually use the deputy sheriff officers. After they transport, after they 146 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 bring a bus or a van to the Criminal Justice Center, they are then assigned to courtrooms.
Okay. Can you discuss, given the fact that the courts are covered 24/7, how is overtime handled? And I raise the question of overtime because that's come up with other departments. Can you tell us, for example, what portion of the existing budget may be attributed to overtime? SHERIFF GREEN: I am glad you asked that question, because we are rather proud of what we have been able to do as far as overtime. Given our shortage, and realizing that we were -- we had a personnel problem, and we realized that after tracking the change in the number of incidents that have occurred, we realized that we would have to make financial room for more deputies, more money available. And, so, we have cut our overtime in a year. For example, in April 2003 -- I mean, April 2003, our overtime costs was $356,268. 147 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 In April 2004, our overtime costs was $128,913.
And, so, what do you attribute that to, besides what one might say is good management? What else would you attribute that to? Especially given the need for 45 additional deputies. SHERIFF GREEN: That's what I attribute it to, good management.
How did you arrive at 45, versus 35 or 55? SHERIFF GREEN: 45 will allow us to put an additional deputy in every working courtroom, allowing for one courtroom to be used by -- to be covered by a floater.
So you want partners. You want two deputies per courtroom? SHERIFF GREEN: That's correct. Because now we are dealing with a different type of person, prisoner, if you will. Before we were, quite frankly, dealing with people who may have been in county detention area for a relatively minor 148 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 crime. Today, because of the overcrowding, the people who are kept in the county facility are people who are there for serious matters. And, so, we are dealing with a different type of person. We are dealing with a person who comes to court with a different mindset because he or she knows that they are there for something serious. And, to be perfectly honest with you, they wouldn't have committed the serious crimes that they did if they weren't predisposed to violence.
I am struck by your testimony, where you speak about how X number of weapons are found on prisoners. So talk to me about the security system there. It says, 243 incidents, ranging from fights to weapons confiscations, were reported. From what I can see as a lay person coming in the front door, there is a very vigorous approach to making sure that weapons are taken. SHERIFF GREEN: That's correct. 149 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 But even people knowing they are coming into court, and that they may pass through a metal detector, people still bring weapons and various contraband. People forget. People suspect that they can pass it on to a companion. For whatever reason, people still bring weapons to court.
My final question comes from your testimony on . And I don't want to answer the question for you. Help me understand the thread that exists between need for more sheriffs and, you know, the fatal killing of that little boy, when that happened on a schoolyard, where there may or may not have been police. So draw the connect for me. SHERIFF GREEN: Most people who do police work, especially detectives, can tell you that, without information, it is very, very difficult to solve a crime. You don't go around with a fingerprint kit and lift fingerprints and 150 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 match them with a prospective defendant. What you need is real information from real people. And during the tragedy that occurred at T.M. Pierce, there was an outcry for people in the neighborhood to come forward, to come forward with whatever information you may have about the doer. Unfortunately, a lot of people were afraid. We are concerned that if people suspect that the courtroom is not secure, if people read about prisoners escaping from deputies, if people read about prisoners who are able to smuggle in weapons that are made in the prison, and if people read about prisoners actually getting away and being able to get into a ceiling, that people will be reluctant to come down to court and testify out of fear.
Just for my own knowledge base, witness protection programs are handled by the federal government? There is a role for sheriffs for sure, because you have to be in the courtroom simply to protect witnesses. But the actual 151 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 program is handled by whom? SHERIFF GREEN: Well, witness protection program is generally determined and handled by the various prosecutors, be that on the federal, state, or local level.
Okay. Thank you very much for your testimony. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning, Sheriff. How are you doing? SHERIFF GREEN: Fine.
Good. I have a question. Maybe you can help answer the bigger question that I have today. Over at the center, the Criminal Justice Center, you staff the metal detectors; correct? SHERIFF GREEN: That's correct.
The pass-through like we have here and also the hand-held 152 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 units; correct? SHERIFF GREEN: That's right.
After they are delivered and installed, are you responsible, the sheriff, for the ongoing maintenance and testing? I asked a couple of questions. I asked a question down at the airport. I said, once these are installed, is there a quality to make sure that they are still up to the scale that they are supposed to be? In other words, are they maintained, are they tested, are they certified every month to make sure that the sensitivity level is still there? Or could we have one at the end of this hallway, after six months, you could walk through with an M-1 and it doesn't go off? Whose actual responsibility is it for the hardware, to make sure it is working and working the way it should be? SHERIFF GREEN: Right. Councilman, if you will allow me to just discuss the specifics of the performance level of the 153 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 metal detectors --
That's the word I am looking for. SHERIFF GREEN: -- I would do that. I really wouldn't want to get into how well the metal detectors perform out of fear that someone may say, hey, you know, I may be able to smuggle a weapon into the CJC. But I can tell you that Public Property, Public Property is responsible for maintaining the metal detectors.
Do you know if Public Property has an ongoing required certification program of this both hand-held and walk-through technology? Because I'm led to believe that some of this stuff gets dropped in the schools. And unless it actually breaks, that's the last we -- the last contact technicians have with it. I hope that's wrong. But, do you know? And, again, I understand the sensitivity, but I think we need it no either publicly or privately whether or not there is some ongoing program. 154 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Councilman, I think that can only be answered by Public Property. I don't think the Sheriff would have that information.
I think the Sheriff -- and I don't want to put words in the Sheriff's mouth. But I think it is important that, if he is responsible for making sure that that's a safe building, that the equipment that he is using to provide that service is -- so maybe together we should be asking that question of the Department of Public Property. Because I am certain that if I were responsible for that, I would want to make sure that the gear that I am using works well. SHERIFF GREEN: I can tell you that our people, quite frankly, don't depend on outside people to test the equipment. We test it daily. We check it, we monitor it. And I will also assure you that our people are in constant contact with Public Property. Of course, it is like anything else. 155 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 There is always a disagreement between the server and the person who is receiving the service because of a lot of different reasons; budgetary, not having the personnel to do it, or whatever. But we have an ongoing dialogue with Public Property. We test it, and they know if there is a problem.
That's good to hear. And I will talk to you privately, because the sensitivity of the potential lack of sensitivity of this equipment. The last question that I have is, earlier you heard the discussion about potentially, or at least talking about, using inmates that are incarcerated in city jails to perform work like picking up papers and debris, cleanup, et cetera. In some jurisdictions, is it the Sheriff that oversees that, or is it normally a program that's administered by the institution itself? SHERIFF GREEN: Well, in some jurisdictions the Sheriff actually handles the 156 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 county lockup, or the county jail. So that would go with the responsibility of maintaining the people who are incarcerated, if they are people who have already been convicted of a crime. I would suspect that there may be other counties that are -- where sheriff's offices are responsible for ensuring that prisoners are taken to the various places where they are going to serve out their obligation to the state or to the county. We do that when we transport people to the various drug programs and to the various day programs that they are assigned to or remanded to. I can assure you, Councilman, and members of City Council, that if we walk away today with an assurance of additional deputies, the 45, that we will find a way to provide security and transportation on a small scale for whatever programs the courts initiate.
So what you are telling me today, if the city jails wanted to 157 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 institute a work program, that the way we are structured now, the jail would have to provide that oversight, not the sheriff? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes, the jail would have to provide that oversight, of course. And the court system would have to develop the program. But we are always willing to support. As you know, Councilman Clarke is on the Board of the Community Court, and we recently assigned a deputy to Community Court. When Traffic Court came to us and said, look, we have some concerns, we were able to address those concerns. We always try to respond, when needed, and we are not going to change that obligation.
So what I heard you say during your answer is that the inmates that have to go to drug treatment, you transport and provide that service? SHERIFF GREEN: That's correct.
And not the jail? SHERIFF GREEN: Yes, that's right. 158 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
You are welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Thank you. I actually forgot two thing, sheriff Green. One with regard to the DROP program, is there a rule in place with the Sheriff's Department which prohibits retirees from the program, prohibits them from reconsideration to work within the Sheriff's Department after they opted to take DROP? SHERIFF GREEN: The Managing Director issued a memorandum addressing that issue. And the memorandum in fact said that people are not encouraged to try to return to active service with the city after leaving through the DROP program. As you probably know, we had one instance where we had someone who was retiring who was essential to our operation. And he is now working in our civil component, and in the real estate component of the Sheriff's Office. 159 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
I was, actually, not aware of that. And this article that really raised the question, Cashing in on Pension Loophole, they actually don't mention the Sheriff's Department, so I was unaware of that. SHERIFF GREEN: I think it does.
Does it? Okay. SHERIFF GREEN: I will give you the guy's name.
How long ago did the Managing Director issue that memorandum, do you recall? SHERIFF GREEN: I know it was just before we -- before the person mentioned in the article returned.
I was unaware of that, so I thank you for sharing that information. Finally, you opened your testimony by thanking us for our cooperation regarding 160 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 the delay of the -- or postponement of the sheriff's sales. And we really need to thank you for responding to the, you know, terrible numbers that we are seeing with regards to foreclosure, and how predatory lending is tied into that, and how that really reeked havoc in families across the city. So we thank you and your department for your willingness to postpone that and take a closer and better analytical look at that problem. SHERIFF GREEN: Thank you. It is also bad for the city. Because when properties are vacant for a number of months or years, it tends to decrease the popularity and the attractiveness of the community.
Sure. Sure. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you. Any other questions or comments from members of the committee? 161 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Thank you very much, Sheriff. SHERIFF GREEN: Thank you.
Thank you. Clerk Quarter Sessions is next. Ms. Miller, we have all have copies of your testimony. They will be given to the stenographer, they will be transcribed in whole. If you can abbreviate your testimony, we would really appreciate it.
Thank you, Madam President and members of the Council. I am here because I need your support. I need your support for a budget of $4,722,227. And that's because, without that, that means that we would lose around seven people, with the 5 percent decrease. We wouldn't be able to do our job as needs to be done without the increase. There, I believe, are six new judges have been appointed, and that would mean six more courtrooms. As it stands, we have around 62, 63 clerks. And each day around 10 to 12 people 162 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 are out, so that means we are short right then and there. We are not able to keep people because the staff is so low, because they are not able to get vacations and take off days that they have earned over a period of time. So all this makes it almost impossible for us as far as the staff to man the courtrooms. And, in conclusion, as the City Council is responsible for the plan to keep Quarter Sessions afloat, in order for the department to carry out mandated services with limited problems, we are striving to service other members of the criminal justice family. And that's about it, where we are at. Thank you.
Good afternoon, everyone there. I am, actually, posing this question to all department heads regarding the DROP program. 163 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Is there a rule in place that prohibits those who leave your department because of the DROP, is there a rule to prohibit them from returning as a retiree, even though they are a retiree from that department?
Well, it is new, and we have not looked at anything as of yet.
I think what Vivian was saying, she can't even get people to join her office, nevertheless retire and come back. Isn't that what you are saying?
We can't even get them to stay, let alone ask them to come back.
I recall last year, during testimony, either you shared with us or there was a question raised with regards to technological advances in your office. Do you care to give us an update on what you have done with regards to using 164 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 technology to help your department run even more efficiently?
I would like to give you Lopez, who is my first deputy, who I put in charge of that.
Lopez Jones, Senior First Deputy Clerk of Quarter Sessions, to answer your question, yes, there has been some progress in regards to our fines and costs that's being automated.
Fines and costs. It has been automated. Hopefully in a matter of two to three weeks that should be done. And we will be live with that, hopefully, by the end of May.
For that type of service, what is the role, if any, of procurement, the Office of Procurement?
So the identification of that vendor happened strictly within your office?
Okay, then. Well, I for one, I can only speak for Blondell, am still trying to get a handle on the role of procurement, and what they do across the board with all city agencies. So thank you for your testimony. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon. I just want to clarify your statement. It wasn't a part of your testimony. You indicated that there were a number of individuals on a consistent basis that were absent, you said ten employees?
At least 10 to 12 per 166 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 day, yes.
Because we are so understaffed, we ask the clerk to maybe man two or three courtrooms. So, therefore, if they put in a request for to have a leave, and we say, we sorry, you know, you can't do it, you can't have this, well, they will take it off anyhow.
I am sorry. How does one clerk cover three courtrooms at the same time?
Well, it is not the same time. You may have a courtroom that there is a plea going on, or maybe a sentence, you know, they are listening. And while they are waiting for the jury to come back or something, we ask them to go to another courtroom, maybe to write notes, pertinent notes. 167 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 And then sometimes when that's completed, if there are another courtroom that's not back in function, then we ask them to go someplace else. So this is very hard on a person. Very, very much so. Maybe Mr. Jones could add some more to that, since he was our second deputy for some years.
Well, she pretty much hit the nail on the head. It is a situation, when you have juries going on, you may go to a clerk and say, I need you to go to another room because the judge needs a disposition. So we pull the court clerk from that room, send them to another room, just to put the disposition on file. And that's why you get court clerks working maybe one, two, or three courtrooms.
I am sorry. Councilman Clarke, please proceed. I was just curious.
I was just trying to get clarity. So you have approximately 60 clerks? 168 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
And every day between or of them are out absent, 6 either excused -- 7
That's kind of a 10 relatively high rate. 11 Is there anything you think your 12 office can do to alleviate that what I assume to be a problem? Are they all Civil Service employees?
In fact, I have the union rep here. He can also substantiate that part of what I was just saying.
I believe you. I believe that to be the case, you told us that. But I am just trying to understand. 169 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 If I had on a consistent basis -- and I am trying to do a ratio -- if I have, like, one and a half persons from my office on a daily basis absent, that is extremely problematic for me, and I would rectify that one way or another. I have the luxury of -- and I say, "luxury," in that these people are not Civil Service, and they serve at the pleasure of the elected official. But this sounds like a substantially high level of absenteeism.
Unfortunately, but that's it. They may call in sick, they may call in vacation, they may be an emergency day. You know, they have a variety of complaints, I mean, as far as not coming in.
Did the union representative want to add to that, and tell me why its members are chronically absent?
My name is Edward Comacho. I am the business agent for local 696 that represents the Clerks of 170 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Quarter Sessions. And to answer your question, Councilman, just like Ms. Miller stated, it has a lot to do with scheduling of vacation time, AL days, also emergencies, and also the sick time. One of the things that we have been looking at over the years has been the amount of work that they are trying to perform with the shortness of staff, and it can't continue. At some point it is going to affect the staff that you have currently now. And one of the things that we were supporting Ms. Miller on was an increase in the court clerks. Because not only is it just trying to schedule vacation time and also be able to afford them to use their AL times -- which they are losing their AL time, which they have earned over the year -- the sick time has been increasingly also, due to the fact of the stress level that they have to do going from one courtroom, to another courtroom, to a third courtroom, to try to maintain that level of productivity for the 171 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Clerks of Quarter Session. And I think it hinders the department, and they should be offered an opportunity to increase that level. I know that last year Council had stated that they were going to look at at least increasing them by three. And we have been informed that they have been asked to cut their staffing level by 5 percent. You can't do that, when you are increasing the judges on the stand.
I think they have been asked to reduce their budget by 5 percent, not necessarily targeted the personnel issue. The 5 percent, I am getting a sense -- and I am not speaking for the Administration -- by I think you can cut 5 percent from anywhere within the budget.
Excuse me. My name is Tom Christmann, Junior. I am Budget Officer for the Clerk of Quarter Session. And the 5 percent reduction, as 172 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 desired by the Administration, in a budget that Quarter Sessions is approved for each year, it basically almost has to come out of Class 100. Because we get so few funds in the other areas to just get us by, Classes 200 through 400. So if we were to absorb a 5 percent reduction, it would really result in about a loss of about seven employees to our department. We are already shy, as we speak, in this current fiscal year, we are already shy about eight positions. And that's what we are trying to address with getting people on board. And the stress levels that have been talked about here towards -- in regards to our court clerks really are tied to the fact that we are shorthanded presently. So we are trying to get to the levels that we would like it to be, which is, for the entire department, 128 people. But we are still living in the high one teens, low one twenties consistently, and the stress is 173 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 getting to our staff.
Let me ask the question, since we have the union representative up here. Has there been any thought to restructure the nature of the employee; i.e., part-time employees? And I know traditionally union representatives don't like that. But I am looking at a more cost-conscious way of doing business. If you are telling me that, you know, clerks are targeting three -- two or three different courtrooms, would it be more prudent to have people working on a part-time basis, where they can be targeted to specific courtrooms, as opposed to having one full-time employee running all over the place? Have you looked at any creative ways of dealing with both the problem with respect to overburdening the employee and any ability to address your fiscal problems?
We have tried to look at several. 174 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Are you just asking for more money? I mean, we at Council right now are being asked to cut rec centers in our district. I have five, six pools on the list to be cut. And that's, you know, you talk about stress. That's going to be extremely stressful for me, you know, if I have to close them all. But I am looking at creative ways of addressing that budget issue. Have you all looked at any other alternatives?
I think in the long term, yes, we could look at trying to develop some restructuring, if possible. Like we have had in the contract over the various years, RGI, redesigning government initiative, offers that opportunity to really look at the whole department and try to work with the department in trying to restructure certain areas of responsibilities. We haven't had that opportunity just yet, Councilman, but I think it is something 175 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 that we need to look at, too, seriously.
Is this the same document? I remember when I was running for this seat initially, and I met with, trying to get the endorsement of 33 and 47 -- didn't get it, by the way, but that has nothing to do with these proceedings.
This time. I was unopposed this time. I appreciate it, but --
No. But I was just saying, excuse me, it was a document given to me at that time, '99, reinventing government. Is that the same document?
And nobody has entertained addressing that from that point on, none of the departments, Administration?
Quite a few departments have utilized the redesigning 176 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 government initiative program. Licenses and Inspections has done an excellent job with it, where we have sat on it. The Law Department has started to do so the same. And we are looking at other departments that are willing to -- Board of Revision of Taxes is also right now looking at doing that.
Is there an existing Civil Service list for the court clerks?
There is not a list for the title court clerk or court clerk trainee as we bring them in on. A little bit of a history on this position. But, basically, we, in agreement with the central personnel, our list is attained through the Clerk 3 position in order to get us enough qualified candidates in order to deal with the position. Prior, whenever there was a written test taken for the court clerk trainee, it never attained for us enough candidates in the course of a year to deal with the vacancies that would typically exist. So we agreed that 177 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 we would go elsewhere against that list. So it is a Clerk 3 that we are going against.
Yes, there is. And we do have some approved work force request numbers that we are working against at the present time. That will kick into the vacancies that we have, but it is going to take us time. By the time we interview and select, it is still going to take several weeks.
Any other questions or comments from members of the committee? Thank you very much.
Register of Wills is next. Good afternoon. I know you have a very short statement. However, if you would summarize it, we will give this to the stenographer, she will transcribe it in full. 178 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 So I would ask you that abbreviate your testimony, please.
Good afternoon, Council President and members of City Council. I am Ronald R. Donatucci, the Register of Wills and Clerk of the Orphans Court. To my right is my chief deputy, Ralph Wynder, and to his right is Anthony Derose, my Finance Officer. I will exercise brevity. I would just like to point out, on the second page, there was a typo error, in the second paragraph, after, "my office," "to better serve the citizens." I dictated this and I reviewed it and it was typed last minute. And I think, with all candor, it was signed, like, in the 11th hour the day before the election.
Council President and members, in our FY 2005 request, we are asking for $3,503,335. The majority of this, as in the earlier testimony of the Clerk of 179 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Quarter Sessions, the majority of it is in our Class 100. You will see an increase in our Class 200. This is as a result of our requests right now and the feasibility study to bring our office into the position as the role model for the whole State of Pennsylvania and the Register of Wills in the computerization. Basically, our system right now is internal. And the court system, through our Orphan's Court division, started to outreach through the web. And we will, basically, be able to serve the Bar Association and the public, once this system is implemented, to give total computer and internet access to the public and to the Bar Association to do similar procedures which we now require different lawyers to come into, which is also -- its revenue generated, I have to emphasize. As in the past, our budget and our revenue, I believe we are always, and Mr. Dubow is here, I think he will attest to this, 180 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 attest to the fact that our revenues were basically self-sustaining. We put some numbers on our statement that, by the end of this fiscal year, we are going to bring in over $3 million in revenue. And that's a little bit light. Because this past May -- well, this past May, this past -- well, today officially is our first day, we just raised our marriage license fees to be in line with some of the surrounding communities, and some of our probate fees. We were successful this past year. Many years ago, when I became Register of Wills, there were over 200 separate checking accounts for estates where at that time either the heirs were known or unknown heirs. What I did, Council President, is, I consolidated all these monies and invested it in government insured T-bills. And over the years, if you recall, some years back, when Governor Rendell was our Mayor, we came to an arrangement with Governor Casey to split some of this interest. But I 181 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 did not turn over all the interest. And I contacted the Governor, his office and the Governor, and I said, look, we are still talking approximately close to half a million dollars in interest. And why argue back and forth who really the money belongs to, is it the state or the city. And you know the fiscal problems of this city. And he agreed to split the interest. And approximately a month ago we gave the city $222,000 additional revenue. So our revenue this year should exceed way over what our present budget is. So we are, basically, asking to keep our present staffing because our duties have been expanded, once again, as a result of dealing with the court system. They are now, in our Orphan's Court we are dealing now through what they call banner, which was, to use a term, flown on the Register of Will's in our Orphan's Court division, where we basically have to give access to the Bar Association and different groups through the internet. 182 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 But we were not given any monies, additional monies. And I believe the city may be trying to collect some of this cost from the court system. And, furthermore, we are always expanding our services. We are the only office in the five counties where we are open Wednesday night. We have traveling probate clerks, where we go out to the public. We still provide some free services where we do go out, if it is somebody who is in a hospital and they want to get married, we will send them out free of charge, other than paying for the basic marriage license. So to continue in our role, we are not only there as a city office, but we are also there to totally serve the public.
Thank you. I see that, actually, your budget was cut in every category, Class 100, 200, 300. If you do not receive the funding that you are requesting, what's the operational impact going to be with the 183 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 operations of your office?
Well, first of all, obviously, we are going to have to cut the number of our staff, that's number one. Number two, we have raised fees to bring in additional revenue to the city.
Unequivocally. Because the Bar Association in particular, they have always been receptive of what we have tried to do. Not because I am sitting here, but I believe even me predecessors, we always had the reputation as the most user-friendly office in city government. They don't mind paying these additional fees, if they are getting service. When a lawyer walks in to probate an estate, we try to get him out within a reasonable amount of time. If an attorney has to come in -- if I have to cut probate clerks, and he has to hang around for two to three hours to probate 184 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 an estate, they are not going to be happy whenever we try to raise our fees. It is like a Catch 22.
Thank you, Madam President. First of all, good morning, gentlemen, and thank you for your explanation with regards to MOIS and the role that they will be playing in further computerizing your operation there. On , mid paragraph, you talk about an added service feature. Is this new? Fourth paragraph. Or, actually, third paragraph.
No; but we have expanded it. And once, through Michael Dean and the MOIS, once we get our system, this will bring additional revenues in. Because now if you have to check -- we have records go back to the late 1600s. Now, we have, believe it or not, 185 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Councilwoman, we have people from across the world that write into our office. We charge a fee to research. And if we do find the copy of what they are looking for, again, that's an additional fee.
Once we get this computerization and the internet tied into our operation, we will be able to expand, and we know it will bring additional revenue in. Because it is like anything else, if it is set up in the sense that, you know -- I will give you an example. This past year I was one of the few offices that we now collect our fees, some of our fees, we accept for marriage license, we encourage the use of a credit card. So we are in place already for credit cards. Once our internet and our web is set up, people, they will be doing a further research for their family trees, whatever. And, you know, this will bring additional revenues.
I see. This 186 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 sounds exciting. As of May 1, 2004, a number of fees will be increased. Procedurally what happens internally that moves you to this decision? And is it one that you can make independently?
Yes. What we have done is, how we usually do this, is, we contact the five surrounding counties -- obviously, we are one of them -- and we look at what they charge. And it was a number of years, I believe over three years ago, the last time we raised some of our fees. And we are very reasonable with our fees, because we realize a lot of our constituents in the city are from some poorer areas. And we try to keep the basic fees minimal in relationship to the services we provide. Obviously, if it is a big estate, you are going to be paying a much bigger fee. Our marriage licenses, again, we just researched. And I was watching television one night, when there was somebody 187 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 trying to apply for a marriage license in Bucks County. I guess it was over two months ago. And I saw the sign up on the wall, $50. We were only charging 40. And we just raised it to 50 because we are the only office where our staff, they actually work on Wednesday night. And we are the only office, that I am aware of, maybe city government, we don't pay a dime in overtime. My employees trade off. You know, they will come in later on a Wednesday. But they are willing to do that to provide services to the public.
I was going to ask you both about overtime and the DROP program.
We have zero in overtime. And the DROP program, it is my rule, nobody. You know, I don't think they want to come back ever. We have some employees retiring in their early '80s.
I think that 188 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 might be all. Thank you very much.
Madam President, I don't think our employees get overtime, either, do they?
I am not going to mess with the Charter. Let me stop. Good afternoon. Mr. Donatucci, how many employees do you have outside of your office? Like, I know in the North Philadelphia Municipal Services Building, you had an employee there. Do you have one in the other, the Northeast?
We don't have any full-time employee assigned on a full-time basis. We do it several hours a day.
Yes. 189 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 And they call our office and, you know, we try to provide that service. But nobody is sitting in an office all day.
Because I know one of the recommendations is to close the municipal service centers. I know the one on 22nd Street is scheduled to close. And I am assuming that that has no 10 budget impact on you, in terms of monies that your department has to pay. You just, essentially, from time to time place an employee there; you are not required to?
That is something that we did for the Northeast part of the city, the Bar Association in particular. It is a real service that we do provide in that part of the city because it is the furthest part away from the city. And senior citizens, again, we try to remember that the majority of people who use that office are bereaved, they just lost a husband or a wife, you know, or a child. And for them to travel all the way down, we try to take the burden off a little bit. 190 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 We still do not provide for marriage licenses. If you want to get married, my feeling is, you have to come to City Hall. I am still a traditionalist. And let them see this beautiful building.
One of these days I will do that. Thank you. That's all.
I would like to mention, if they do close the office in the Northeast, that we are going to make every effort to, even if we have to talk to some of the attorneys up there, if they are willing to let us -- and I want to check the viability issue. Because we do get a good volume out of that location, and I hope they do not close that facility. And we will do the same thing in North Philly, more in North Philly, because we do get volume out of both locations.
I just wanted to add to that, in the event that -- and the decision hasn't been determined yet -- but in the event that the North Philadelphia 191 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 municipal services facility will close, I think we have identified an alternative space.
I am willing to -- I don't know. Do you have an office in North Philly?
Unfortunately, we don't have a budget to have district offices.
But I am saying, I am willing to work with the local state rep or a Senatorial office.
We are, actually, looking at a place we have a library that's under construction in close proximity to the existing building, we are looking to ensure that we have adequate space for the operations that are currently held in the municipal services building. And put them in the library, and that might actually encourage people to read a book while they are in there getting other services, and I think that might be a good idea.
You have my word I 192 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 will make every effort to make sure that that's one service we will try not to cut out.
I would be remiss if I didn't mention on the record how the Register of Wills office is not just customer-friendly, but politician-friendly. I mean, we try to get help for people all the time. It is basically what we do most of the time. And if we get the same level of service from other agencies as we get from the Register of Wills, I think our jobs would be much, much easier. So, I really want to mention that to you. Because it is -- I'm sure it is, you know, the employees don't behave that way accidentally. It is something that is driven down from the top. But on the issue of the Northeast office, because it is a little further, I understand, from the Northeast than even North Philly to get down here to City Hall, 193 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 particularly the libraries, I would hope that we could explore those or even rec centers that have very little activity during the day, but may be able to be used during those hours, when they are not tied up with kids and rec leaders and everything. I think there's got to be an outcome that can work for us. And I know if it is capable of happening, Ron, you will make sure it happens.
Yes, Madam President. First let me underscore Councilman O'Neill's comments and put those in capital letters with exclamation points. Because in the four years I have been here, the customer service has been exemplary. And I do agree it does always start with leadership. To this question of fees again. These hearings have revealed for us that some, I guess it would be the Revenue Department or 194 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Water Department, do not do well in collecting revenues for their particular areas. Are fees paid on site in your office?
Yes. You can't raise an estate until you pay some of these monies. But, let me emphasize how computers help. Years ago our additional fees, where somebody will come in -- and I want to give a compliment to Mr. Glancey. His office has worked in conjunction where somebody, if our office -- I will give you an example. Somebody will come in and they will raise an estate. They will start the process, and you have to put the present value of the piece of real estate. We are now tied into the Board of Revision of Taxes at least to get a fair idea. A few years prior we would have individuals come in and say a house at 5th and Pine was worth $40,000. Now what problem does that create for us? Our probate clerks, because they take 195 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 an oath, people put 40,000, or whoever it is, they put 40,000. And after the estate has gone through the different steps, and then they put -- say the property is sold for 900,000. We have to go back and try and collect the additional fees. Our computerization internally, which is not tied into the web system, other than our access that we can go on through the CityNet to find out what the property is assessed at, we now, our additional fees, I believe, last year were two or three hundred dollars that we couldn't collect, as compared to maybe six or seven years ago, 40 or 50. Because the attitude was, once the estate was finalized, try to collect the monies, because the properties sold. So we usually get the money up front.
Okay. My final question would be for my own knowledge base. Could you please forward to the Chair the list of the type of fees your office does collect 196 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 and the amount.
Thank you. Any other questions or comments from members of the committee? Seeing none, gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you for a job well done.
And the committee will stand in recess until 1:45. (Recess.)
The Committee of the Whole is now back in session. Do we have anyone here from the City Commissioner's Office to testify? Please approach the witness table.
Good afternoon. Please identify yourself, for the record.
My name is Robin Zerbib. I am the Acting Budget Officer for the City Commissioners. 197 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
We did not receive any written testimony from your office.
We do not yet have written testimony. I have yet to meet with the Commissioner, and we were also not aware of the Council session today. The last transmittal that I got was opened Thursday in my e-mail that the testimony was due. And I haven't had a chance to meet with the Commissioner, as they are certifying the election. I will do the best I can to get that information to you as soon as possible.
I think we are just going to have to schedule you for another day. We will notify the City Commissioner what day she shall have to come in.
You are welcome. Thank you. Next to testify is the City Controller. Good afternoon.
Good afternoon, Madam President. 198 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
We did receive a copy of your testimony this morning. We will give a copy of it to the stenographer, who will transcribe it in whole. So if you would like to abbreviate your testimony, we would appreciate it.
It would be my pleasure. Madam President, I am accompanied by Attorney Tony Radwanski, who is the Deputy Controller for Administration. I have Tony McNeil and Albert Scaperotto here, with two other deputies, as well as Administrative Services Director Gene Laumer. The essence of my statement for the record today is that the General Fund appropriation is $7,314,505 for the Controller's Office. This is a 5 percent cut for 2005. For the last two years my office has gotten a 3 percent reduction. So over the last three years, we have had a total reduction almost 11 percent of the budget that we originally submitted. 199 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 I had met with the Mayor and told him that I would try to live within the guidelines of the budget that has been presented to me. That I doubt very strongly that that will be the case, you know. Because of the changes in the City Charter from the last election, I think it was 3 to 1 in the majority, my office has responsibility of auditing any department that is ancillary to the City of Philadelphia, that receives funds from the city, or has appointments from the Mayor and/or City Council. Besides the state law, which now gives us an opportunity, through my office, to audit the Parking Authority of the City of Philadelphia. I don't know at this point whether I may have to come back for additional funds or not. I told the Mayor that I would try to live within the means that have been presented to me, as I have the last two years. And that is a very big concern of mine. We are in need of additional 200 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 employees to fulfill our mandated responsibilities. And now, with these additional responsibilities as an independent controller, I may be in need during the next fiscal period of additional funds. So, that remains to be seen. I did make mention in my presentation about the Office of Inspector General, who has asked for additional funds. And there is a quote on the last page of my testimony which states that the Inspector General is asking for Civil-Service-exempt auditors and it is quoted as saying that, to conduct the entire range of audits, including economy and efficiency audits, of the various operations of the city government. This description is taken from the Home Rule Charter, which we are all familiar with, and is actually the mission of the city's independent auditor, which is the Office of the City Controller. I have met with the Mayor and told him I was concerned that the Inspector General was going to attempt to invade what has been 201 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 traditionally and, according to the Home Rule Charter, the provisions of the creation of an independent controller, and since 1951. So I have no problem with an Inspector General's Office having a function within our government when it comes to ethics violations or investigations thereof. To me, our office has 45 CPAs. All of them are Civil Service, protected under Civil Service and union regulations, and I think have done a tremendous job over the last number of years and have produced for an average of $8 million worth of recommendations per individual. The Inspector General also mentioned that they were thinking of doing internal control audits. If the Inspector General, who I have never met, by the way, wants to look and see what type of internal control systems should be changed, all he or she has to do is go back over the last number of years and look at the many audits that my office has done, as required by law, concerning the internal control problems that we have seen over the 202 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 last number of years in the City of Philadelphia. If there is any question on my written documentation or any other questions, I am more than happy to answer it.
All right. The Chair at this time recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Controller Saidel, let me ask this question: When you raise issues concerning the budget for the office, which I would have the same concern, doesn't the Charter provide, or seek to provide some, at least a requirement to properly fund the Controller's Office? It may not necessarily be a guarantee, but it seems to speak to that particular issue?
Yes. In fact, a number of years ago, as you might remember, Councilman, I was forced to sue the City of 203 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Philadelphia on a writ of mandamus when Mayor street was President of City Council because I felt that the budget was cut to such an extent that the office could not fulfill its mandated responsibilities under the Home Rule Charter. The sad part about that provision is, I needed the approval of the City Solicitor that is not only my attorney, your attorney, and the Mayor's attorney, and then the cost of hiring outside counsel was actually almost as much money as was additionally given to me. But, no; that's absolutely true. Which is why I am putting Council on notice that though I have always tried to live within the means of the budget that I have presented, and then subsequently received, I am concerned this particular year that I will not receive the funds that are necessary to do the job that has been entitled to us, certainly with the expanded responsibilities of the office based upon the changes in the Charter that were voted on here in City Council and passed overwhelmingly by the citizens of 204 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Philadelphia.
Let me ask this question: How many audits does the Controller's Office perform on average on a yearly basis?
We perform an audit of every department in the City of Philadelphia, every agency of the City of Philadelphia, as well as the Boards and Commissions. Yes, there are about 45 to 50 audits, not counting what are called performance audits and operational audits, which I try to be, as you know, topical during the fiscal year to have people set aside for -- and money set aside when there is outside help that's needed from outside accounting firms.
How many performance audits do you think are conducted? And can you tell me in the past year which departments or agencies did you perform a performance audit for?
If you don't mind, I will have Al Scaperotto come up, who is the 205 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 post-audit supervisor.
Albert Scaperotto. I am the post-audit deputy for the Controller's Office. For performance audits, we did the audit of the office of fleet management. We also looked at the rate reduction, the special discounts given to water and sewer recipients, the low-income allowance. We did the pension fund audit a few years ago, where we looked at the deceased beneficiaries. Currently we are doing the MBEC audit. And we looked, as part of the Treasurer's Office --
Yes. But it is not finished yet, Councilman. 206 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
The report is scheduled to come to me this Friday. We then go through our internal quality control procedures, and it should be out for exit to the department within three weeks.
Okay. And, so, when you talk about performance audits, it sounds like they are usually related to a specific issue within a department, as opposed to the overall operations and performance of that department. Is that a distinction?
That's -- currently, that's the case. We just do not have the time or the resources to go in and look at all facets of the department and then identify which area within that department we should concentrate on. We have been just zeroing in on 207 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 particular activities.
The normal audit would look to verification of cash in bank, the normal accounting processes that would exist. What I have had the office do is, as things move forward -- which is the MBEC audit and the investigations into the airport are examples of topical investigations that had to be begun.
Yes. In other words, to be fluid and be able to respond during the year, depending upon what came up. And if a member of Council, as Councilman Goode has asked us to do a number of times, run analyses. So those things come up during the year. What we try to do in the beginning of the year is look at areas we haven't looked at as a subset of each one of the operating departments. 208 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 This year I actually wanted to audit PIDC, Commerce Department, and a variety of other agencies that, based upon the new Charter change, should give us an opportunity to look and see what the flow of information is. Because wherever the Mayor makes appointments or Council makes appointments, we now have an opportunity to look at. And, again, what I am concerned about is, with an expanded opportunity to give you and other members of Council an independent analyses, that, with this budget constriction, I may not have the money and the wherewithal of employees to do something that's proper.
Now, you mentioned some of the new agencies, although I thought I heard you say, Commerce. You have always had the ability to do Commerce.
I have. In fact, the last time we audited Commerce, I tried to back in PIDC and a lot of the other agencies which would not give me an opportunity to look at 209 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 their books and records. But now, under the new law, as the system moves forward, we should be given an opportunity to look at all their records.
Just a few last questions. How many outside audit firms do you contract with?
It depends upon what the specialty is that comes up during the year. I will get an average for you. An example is, I am going to need outside help from an accounting firm that is familiar with parking authorities in this country when we attempt to do a constructive and bipartisan analysis of the current situation at the Parking Authority, as an example.
On your testimony, you make reference -- and this is all, I am sure, in a budget context -- you talk about with a technical staff of two inspectors, one certified engineer, and one CPA, it will not be possible for us to perform 210 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 the vital check and balance inspection on some $250,000,000 set to be spent as a part of the Mayor's Neighborhood Transformation Initiative. And then you go on to say, although the Administration has agreed to fund our inspections in this program, no money has been received. Are you telling us that, at this point, there have been no audits of the NTI program?
Let me make sure the record is clear, because you said no and yes.
Well, not in the sense that I would like it to be, and I am sure in the sense you would like it to be. We originally had a variety of meetings with those individuals that are involved in NTI. And we were supposed to receive $200,000 to either be used for additional 211 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 employees or to bring in some temps with these types of specific backgrounds to be able to analyze the NTI as the process moved through in the pre-audit section. That money has not been forthcoming. So, what we are attempting to do, with the staff that we have, is to be selective based upon the amount on the invoices as they travel through the system. I would much rather have had, which was supposed to be the way it was, that we would analyze NTI as it moved through the system, be able to give people an opportunity, yourselves and other members of Council and the general public, an opportunity to understand where that money was being flowed to and how it was being flowed and a turn-around time between, say, demolition and demolition payments, what demolition was being done, and rates and a variety of other things. But I was supposed to get $200,000 from the Administration, which has not been received.
Other than 212 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 reports in the media, had your office noticed the significant escalation in costs related to demolition?
Yes. And I will ask Mr. McNeil, who is the Deputy Controller for Pre-audit, to step forward and talk about it. You know, as you know, the process was supposed to be that the city would borrow a certain amount of money; demolition would occur; and during that process, eminent domain would occur; demolition would occur; homes and income-producing properties would then be created; and that money would then be placed back in the pool and moved forward and, effectively, 250 million could be 3 billion, if you use it properly. As you know and I know and anyone who has followed the process knows, that that's not the case; that most of the money has been used for demolition. But I will have Mr. McNeil, who is the Deputy Controller for Pre-audit, answer some of the specifics. MR. ANTHONY McNEIL: My name is 213 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Anthony McNeil, Deputy City Controller. To answer, to add to what Jonathan was saying, because to tear down one house roughly a few years ago was $8,000, it now escalated to somewhere around $22,000. John pointed out some of the costs of labor, costs in materials, et cetera, and the type of NTI project. Their scope of how they want to do the job has escalated the price that much. They were talking about, the original plan, was to do 14,000 houses. But I don't -- we don't really see that at this particular time. Inspections that we do, we have, basically, four auditors, technical people, that go out and look at inspections in the past. Before we pay a bill, our inspectors would go out and look at the work, look at the test pits they would build when they tear houses down to see if there are any materials hidden or buried in the basements. We haven't had the opportunity to do 214 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 that because of the volume of the houses they tear down on a daily basis or a monthly basis. We don't have the staff to perform that. So we asked for additional money to work along with L & I and NTI, Hill International. As they do their inspections, we would have a designated inspector to go along with them at that time. That hasn't happened to this date. We did go out in January to look at some houses that have been torn down and some of the finished products. But while we were in the -- during the inspection, we saw four or five violations right in front of us, where Hill and the inspectors looking at it. We were supposed to do a certain kind of cement work, curing, and they didn't do the work properly. So we desperately need to get that money so we can have some people and make sure the job is done right.
So, Controller Saidel, let me, I guess, ask this question: 215 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 So at the time moment, based on your general, your normal standards, there have not been any serious audits of the NTI program. And we are, I guess, at least two years into it. We have the FY '05 budget coming up. At what point do you think we would actually be able to start auditing the program? And what happens to all the activity that happened prior to this point?
Well, it is not an audit in the true definition of what an audit is. But we were supposed to be involved -- and I am very disappointed in the lack of oversight. But understand that there is supposed to be a variety of agencies that are involved in oversight, besides myself. We are doing the very best we can and have analyzed things and held up payments on a variety of times to make sure that the agencies that are empowered by the Mayor to do what they are supposed to do, as well as Hill International and a variety of other contractors that have been hired to be 216 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 involved in NTI, do what they are supposed to do. I would hope that I would get the $200,000 as makes it possible to move forward in whatever phase the Mayor says he is in. But I think that -- and that money does not necessarily have to come out of the General Fund; it can come out of the capital fund. So there is a variety of ways that we can receive the funding to make sure that we live up to our responsibilities, as I believe we should. But as a bare-bones, we have held up a number of checks and forced people to do what they are supposed to do. But I think that with all these cuts that my office has had, you know, everybody wants to try to live within the means that they are given, but I wanted to come here today and put Council on notice not in a negative way. Because this budget is initiated by the Mayor's Office. But just to publicly say that, you 217 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 know, in the next couple of months, if I don't have the 200,000, if I don't feel that I have the capability of manpower and contracting power to fulfill our responsibilities, if I have to sue, I will. I will do what I think I have to do.
The 200,000 in question, was that for the current fiscal year, or was that for last fiscal year?
It is for last year. It would be an ongoing process. That 200,000, if I brought in some oversight and brought in some additional people on a temporary basis, would help us catch up on a variety of things. So that number was a give-and-take number that could be used for a number of months.
I understand. But I am assuming that you originally wanted it for the FY '03, which I think was the first real NTI budget. That didn't happen then.
It didn't happen then. But, to be truthful, they didn't do that much. 218 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 They didn't do that much.
I understand. Madam President, I just have a couple last questions. Mr. Controller, can you give us your perspective on the announced proposal by the Mayor and the Administration to, in essence, remove $125 million from the Water Department debt reserve fund for economic development purposes? What's your perspective on the idea, and any concerns you may have with regard to the loss of interest earnings?
Well, I have not been one in favor of what the Mayor has proposed, which is the transferring over of some of the SWAP money and a variety of things that have been in the last couple of years, that $125 million. I informed the Mayor that that money 219 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 could not be used in the General Fund, that that money couldn't be used any way his Administration saw fit, but could only be used for the furtherance of the Water Department's responsibilities and their capital improvements. You know, when you are asking for a 46 percent, or some number like that, increase in water rates, I think that that money could be better used. And I don't think it should be applied to this artificial category, I think, the Mayor placed when he gave his State of the City address, which is he wants to have a total of $500 million for a variety of things that have yet to be determined. So I don't think that that's a proper use of that funds and would be, respectfully, against any kind of movement like that.
I am assuming there must be some role for the Controller, in accordance with the Home Rule Charter, regarding the spending of any of those 220 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 dollars?
Well, it would be only in the sense that the Mayor, to use the money the way he wants, would probably have to get a legal opinion to say how he is going to delineate, how he is going to spend that section of the 500 million. I don't know where the other, you know, $375 million is coming from, either.
But for me and my office, I would disapprove any expenditure that was made that was not according to the law in relationship to bond proceeds being used by a revenue fund, as you know, which is what the Water Department is. And the law is that money can only be used back for the furtherance of capital improvements within the Water Department structure itself.
I think the proposal at the moment, what we have been able to glean from testimony, is that it would be 221 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 used for, basically, new infrastructure or upgrades to infrastructure that may or may not exist in at least three locations, somewhere on the Delaware River, the Navy Yard, and I think I have heard somewhere in the Schuylkill River Park area. I don't know what the infrastructure is presently in those locations. But I think we have to, for the moment, assume that there either is not any, and it would be put in to assist in development, or to significantly upgrade some systems that may be aged or failed or beyond their useful life. Do you think that's an appropriate use of those dollars that were, essentially, put in by the taxpayer?
No, I don't. And the reason I haven't commented is on it because there is nothing written down on paper, so it is almost impossible to vote on a budget like that, let alone --
Or make a decision as 222 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 to where I would stand as the Controller of Philadelphia. But the general proposition for me is that the money should be used -- you can either use the money to reduce the debt or you can use the money to fix existing infrastructure, which would effectively reduce the amount of revenue that was necessary to keep those pipings alive.
But I haven't seen as of today the specificity that I would need. Which is why I have always made the general comment that I am against, that I disapprove of the way it is being handled. But I need to see something much more specific, as I am sure everybody in this chamber needs to, from the Administration as to what they actually think they are going to do with the money, to make a judgment call.
Last question. of your testimony, and you articulated this, you raise a concern about the request by the Office of Inspector General for $550,000, 223 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 essentially to hire new people. Your statement here pretty much says it all. First, there is no legitimate basis for this request. And then you go on to talk about what, in essence, is the primary role and responsibility of the Controller's Office as the Charter-designated auditing agency for the government. Let me ask the question this way: From your perspective, do we need an Inspector General?
I think that an Inspector General's Office would be a valuable asset, if it existed. When I met with Judge Chen, and she asked me about the use of an Inspector General, I told her that, when it comes to perceived ethics violations and a variety of other functions which have hovered somewhere in the mist, that no one has ever said is their responsibility, I think an Inspector General's Office can be a valuable tool. But the problem always is that it is very difficult for an appointed official to 224 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 investigate the people that appoint them. So as far as the way, the makeup of the IG's office, as it seems to be envisioned, I think that's a waste of money. I think what you are doing is creating duplication. You know, as I mentioned in the prepared testimony, is that we already handle that function. We have handled that function from Controllers before me and Controllers after me that will have that opportunity to do these jobs. And they are Civil Service employees, protected by unions, and will be there long after I am gone. And I am --
Well, we are hoping that you are going to be there for a long time.
I'm sure you are. In whatever capacity. But the reality is, Councilman --
Is that I think the IG that's being created -- and I am amazed that I never met the Inspector General; I think I saw 225 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 a picture of him, when he testified at City Council --
We met him a couple of weeks ago, met him for the first time.
Oh. Is that the office is really becoming a controller like, it is becoming a miniature Controller's Office. Where I have 35 CPAs working for me, he wants to hire or people that are exempt, which is in clear violation of everything I have always been told about government. And I don't think that that's the proper role of an Inspector General's Office. So if it was handled properly, I think it would be a welcome addition. But if it is not handled properly, it is merely a duplication of effort.
Thank you. Mr. Controller, in this city treasurer's audit report for 2001 and 2002, 226 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 you mention that the fiscal agent is holding approximately $16 million in unclaimed bond payment funds. Of this amount, approximately $14 million was held for over two years and $9 million for over seven years. In your capacity as City Controller, what actions, if any, do you think the city should take with regards to those funds, as they are over two years old?
Well, as you know, Madam President, the Wachovia is our escrow agent. And we deposit money into Wachovia, and they are supposed to distribute that money to bond holders. The money that's been sitting there for not only two years, three years, but sometimes seven years, is money that is accruing interest, but it is money bond holders that have not been able to be found. We had originally thought that the money would go to the state. But the City Solicitor's opinion states that that money is ours. And since it is ours, the fact that 227 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 it is still sitting in Wachovia is beyond the pale of reasoning. That that money should be transferred back, so the city can use it for other areas. And I think keep a list of those bond holders which have not received payment. And if they, some time in the future -- you would think after seven years, if you owe somebody money, they are going to come forward when they find out they are not getting it. If somebody does come, then we can give them a check out of the General Fund. But you should also know that the interest we are being paid effectively is less than the cost and the expenditure that we pay to Wachovia to hold that money. So I think the money should be transferred immediately over and used for whatever purpose Council and the Mayor see fit to use.
Thank you. I know that you will have to make some recommendation or comment on the city's Five-Year Plan once it goes to PICA. 228 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Would you like to share with us any of your thoughts on the current plan that's before us, the Five-Year Plan?
I didn't know that you had a current Five-Year Plan in front of you.
We have a Five-Year Plan. How current it is, I don't know. It is certainly not current. But, the one that we have before us. You agree that it is not something that we can simply move forward on?
Yes, I don't think, Madam President, that the current Five-Year Plan that you have can be voted on, since the Mayor has made admissions that there is not going to be $18 million a year from the PGW. Which I have always believed should not go to the city; it should be used to reduce the costs to the ratepayers of the City of Philadelphia. But the process has always been that, once you have passed the Five-Year Plan and Council and the Mayor has signed it, that my office then does its due diligence, and 229 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 that due diligence, and the conclusions that we reach then goes to PICA, and PICA has a certain amount of days to make their own independent decision. They can use our information or not use our information. I think that the statements from the Executive Director of PICA initially on in the process, I think, was very premature. But last year -- just to give you some reference point, last year I didn't issue an opinion on the city's Five-Year Plan. So I didn't say it was good and I didn't say it was bad, I just didn't issue an opinion. This year hopefully the Mayor will resubmit a Five-Year Plan which will be more based upon actual circumstances that we can control, rather than some of the additional state legislation which he needs to make the plan whole. I have always been concerned about putting in additional revenue sources based upon an outside legislative body and an outside government which hasn't even looked at a bill, let alone passed a bill through its 230 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 House and Senate and signed by the Governor to give us additional funds. But I am looking forward to seeing the Mayor's new Five-Year Plan and then working with Council to see if it is something that I can voice approval for. But, again, my approval or disapproval is independent of what PICA does. By I do feel that PICA should not have made the initial statements in the beginning of your process, without having the opportunity to look at the numbers as they are presented by Council.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.
I would like to get your reaction. You were just talking about PICA. 231 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 When they came before us shortly after that statement that you described, they came out with what I think surprised me, and maybe some of my colleagues, to see the in-depth operational audit they did of the Philadelphia Police Department. Would you comment on that. I didn't know that that was PICA's role, to do operational audits. And that, obviously, was an operational audit in depth. I don't know whether consistent with your audit, your last audit of the police department. But it kind of confuses me what exactly that was all about. They seem to pull it out of the --
It was confusing. I know that you had asked a particularly poignant question about, you know, who pays them. And I think their response was that the city doesn't pay them. I had no idea they were a charitable institution. But they are paid for out of bond proceeds, which is our money. I mean, effectively, somewhere along the line, it is 232 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 the taxpayer's money of the City of Philadelphia. They don't have a large audit staff. I think they have three -- three auditors. It has always been my belief that their responsibility is to look at our budget overall, which is one of the reasons why my office is empowered to do the due diligence and present information to them on an annual basis once a Five-Year Plan is approved by Council and signed by the Mayor, that our office actually acts as the staff in a limited respect to PICA. But I don't know how they paid for that audit, nor do I know what in-depth work they did on that audit to justify the conclusions that they had. I mean, when we do an investigation, as you know, Councilman, it takes a number of weeks and a number of man-hours. And you check and you recheck and you have exit conferences in order to talk to the departments that are being audited. And then they are given an 233 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 opportunity to present their opposing viewpoint, or their acceptance of that audit. And that opposing viewpoint or acceptance is attached to every audit that goes out so people have an even-handed opportunity to look at the department that we are looking at, our criticisms, and their responses. So I can't tell you how in-depth that audit was, nor the amount of man-hours that were used.
My next question, or maybe it is a comment, your point about the Inspector General here. Wouldn't you think for an Inspector General to be able to do what they do, just the semantics, or maybe just the way this was presented, is causing some of the confusion? Don't most Inspector Generals, whether at local, state, federal level, have to have some staff around them that have the ability to do an independent audit to be able to look at potential crime being committed? Wouldn't it be fair to say that they have to have some limited staff to be able to 234 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 do what they do?
Oh, absolutely. I think the word "investigation" is a proper word. The use of the word "audit" is a term of art. I am not splitting hairs, but there is a difference between an "investigation" and an "audit." And, as I had told the Mayor, that I am more than happy to meet with the IG and his representatives, or the Finance Director, whoever the Mayor wanted to, to make sure that there was no duplication of effort; that the Inspector General can have an opportunity to perform within those spirits of influence that the Mayor sees fit. What I am concerned about -- and you are right, you need proper staffing for that. In many cases they use IAD from the police department, as well as I use IAD under certain circumstances as additional manpower. And I think that the IG can provide a valuable role, if done properly. And since this is almost as if a creation of an Inspector General, as before 235 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 there was an IG, you know, I used to get confidential papers from them, but I don't know who they were. If it is done properly, it can be a useful tool. If not done properly, it will merely be an overlap of agencies that are involved now that I think are doing their job.
I would like to just spend a minute with the results of your hard work. I think you know I read some of this stuff that you send.
And you said something to me that was personally troubling; that you do your reports, but you don't have any enforcement capabilities. It must be tough to have a job where you can see certain deficiencies, and these operating departments, or whatever department of government that you are auditing, don't respond. At what point can you do something, especially when you see a particular 236 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 deficiency? Like, I have one now that I am not going to speak about publicly, but I hope the police department is listening, because there is a particular issue that I have an interest in that is beyond an example. In any of your audits, did you pick up the fact that the police department wasn't being reimbursed for the overtime that they were paying officers?
What did they do about it, when you brought it to their attention? It is mind-boggling that something so significant, with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars not being collected, you pointed out to them, and it is no big deal.
Well, do you know what, it is sometimes overwhelming that, when you find problems within a department, that those 237 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 problems are not rectified. I have always tried to make the audits that we do not specific to individuals, not saying that's this Commissioner, that Commissioner is not doing their job. Because the object is not to create a defensive posture, but to work with the Commissioners to give them an opportunity to make these changes. But, remember, that the definition of an independent auditor is that you do your job. Once an auditor become an enforcement agent, it is no longer an independent auditor. And the definition of being the Controller of Philadelphia is that there is a separation between management. Because if I had the power to enforce my recommendations, I would then become part of management. So I think that you have to always remember that the Controller makes recommendations. We have a bully pulpit. Hopefully Council Members can then ask particular questions based on the information we give, the public can ask questions based on 238 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 the information we give. But it is not -- I think a movement from the Controller's Office, having the ability to enforce its recommendations, would, I think, destroy the independence that is necessary for the Controller's Office, which is why you have a Mayor and an Administration and other elected officials within the government
Mr. Controller, if you saw something in an audit that appeared to be improper, potentially criminal, would you go to the District Attorney, would you go to the Inspector General, since you are not the enforcer? What would you do with something that would in fact be like I described?
In the past, when we have -- when I have found information -- I have never gone to the IG. But when I have found information after a series of exit conferences, where we believe that it has gone from merely a misunderstanding, a lack of accounting 239 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 controls, to criminality, we have referred those files to the District Attorney or to the U.S. Attorney's Office, depending upon what that topic is.
Thank you very much. And I appreciate your good work and, most important, your communications. Because I learn a lot about what goes on in this city by reading especially the executive summary. I think it is very much appreciated by me.
You are welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, gentlemen. I just have a couple of questions. One, during the hearings on the Charter change referendum that subsequently enhanced your authority, did you testify? 240 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
I don't think so. Usually what happens is, what I have always tried to make a rule of, is, when you have seen fit, or Council has seen fit, to increase the powers of the office that I hold, it is a double-edged sword to say I want that additional power. I mean, I was fine with the powers that I did have. But if in a new topic, in a new direction, new Council, and the people of Philadelphia decided that the Office of Controller should have additional powers, it has always been my position in a general rule not to advocate additional powers because people may look at it the wrong way. You know, we are only temporarily here. I am only temporarily Controller. But I think that the Charter change amendments were a step in the right direction for an independent analysis. 241 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Certainly with the growing amount of -- and this is not the current Administration, but just in the last 50 years, the growing amount of outside agencies that have begun to exist that are outside the strict control of Council and the Mayor of Philadelphia.
All right. I asked you that more from a budgetary standpoint. I understand you are concerned about participating in a hearing, when it involves you personally and your office, in terms of enhancing your powers or the ability to do more audits. What I was going to ask you -- and I can't remember if in fact you testified -- at the time of that testimony did you indicate that there will possibly be the need for additional staff people?
To tell you the truth, 242 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Councilman, I don't think I did testify. But, you know, when I met with the Mayor, you know, which we are not adversaries, he asked me about living within our budget. And I have always -- any time in the last three years, I have always tried to live within the budget that's -- not that's the one I present, but the one that I receive. And he also had a concern that I would not be able to receive enough funds to live up to my responsibilities. And I told him, as a Philadelphian, I am going to try my best. And if I do need additional money for the Parking Authority and a variety of other things, then I am going to come back and ask him for it.
I know I myself participated in a number of Charter change initiatives. But we don't, first of all, when we place it on the ballot, we don't talk about the cost associated with that. Right now we are wrestling with another initiative, 243 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 creating the Office of Insurance Advocate. And we are trying to identify additional staffing levels to help the Office of Consumer Affairs, which I was instrumental in. But I also did not attach a dollar figure to that particular position.
You know yourself that there is a lot of things that we would like to do as Philadelphians. The only limitation we have to our dreams sometimes is the dollars that sit before us.
Right. On this issue about the Inspector General -- and Councilman Rizzo actually touched on a substantial amount of what I was going to ask -- you indicated in your testimony that in instances where you saw some potential improprieties, you never forwarded that information or contacted the Inspector General's Office. Is there a reason for that?
Never thought of it. If it reached a level where I felt, as a nonlaw enforcement agency, that it 244 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 reached the level that it needed to be inspected and looked at by the law enforcement community, I would just directly send it to that law enforcement community. Same way that if the Inspector General found something that he or she felt reached a level of criminality, based upon a layman's term, it is certainly advantageous to have the law enforcement agents of the city look at that, rather than myself.
So I take that to mean that you view your office on an equal level with the Inspector General's Office. So there is no need to refer anything to the Inspector General's Office, because you, essentially, do the same thing?
Well, I really can't say that, because I don't know what they are doing. The government is effectively creating an IG because of the significant increase in the budgetary appropriation; and is now trying to define, based on the study that was done -- and I spoke to Judge Chen 245 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 about an Inspector General's Office. I think, again, an Inspector General's Office can be a valuable asset for the people of Philadelphia. But the object is to define what they will be looking at so that there is no significant overlap. Because sometimes if two people look at the same thing, you may not get any information, if it is done, you know, in a quiet way. The other thing is, I told the Mayor that I have no problem having an ongoing conversation with his government to make sure that we all work in tandem, because we all want the same thing. But I have never thought of the Inspector General's Office as effectively someone that sends me confidential envelopes whenever I have been asked to look at something through the Administration.
The Inspector 246 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 General has been around for a while. And maybe I should know this, but I know that the Inspector General in instances has been involved in looking at potential criminal issues in a number of different developments across the City of Philadelphia.
More focus on that, than focus on other types of activity.
Again, that may be the case. They don't need to talk to me. I believe an IG, a Controller's Office, unless it violates some kind of constitutional protection, that the sharing of information makes for a better audit, makes for a better investigation, and effectively makes a better city.
Controller, I did have one last thing. 247 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 I just received, I think it is dated April 29, your regular -- what do you call this one -- monthly economic snapshot, and monthly economic forecast review. I just want you to know I do actually read these. Let's talk about taxes, tax cuts, tax collections. From the most recent report, it seems to indicate that, so far, if I am reading this correctly, wage tax revenues are up --
Yes. I don't have the paperwork in front of me, but that's been the growing trend. I have Marissa Waxman, who runs the budgetary analysis department, if you can specific questions on the document that you have in front of you.
That's the first one, just stating for the record that collections are up this year over last year. 248 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Yes. I am Marissa Waxman, Assistant City Controller, and we get our data directly from the Revenue Department.
And it seems to indicate -- let me ask you this question, Marissa: These figures on this report, are you comparing the same time period to the same time period for the previous Fiscal Year?
Yes; that's what we do each month, is we compare it to the month from the fiscal year before and the year to date from the fiscal year before.
And it seems to indicate that the change from this year compared to last year is a 4.21 percent increase?
I don't have them in front of me at the moment. But if that's what it says there, that is what our data says.
All right. Let me go back to the Controller. Can you give us some of your perspective on the proposals first from the 249 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Tax Reform Commission and second from the 21st Century Review Forum related to proposals to change the tax structure in Philadelphia?
I think that the recommendations made by the Tax Reform Commission could be one of the most significant Commissions I have ever seen in the years that I have been honored to be 10 the Controller of Philadelphia, and I believe 11 in the last 30 to 40 years. 12 I think that it is a sensible 13 approach. I think it is a feasible approach, 14 both mathematically and emotionally, for the 15 people of Philadelphia. And then I think that beyond the few recommendations which would were incorporated into the Mayor's State of the City Address, I think that they should all be incorporated. The need for an independent agency to represent taxpayers in front of the Board of Revision of Taxes is important. Paying estimated payments to the City of Philadelphia doesn't cost us any money. And a variety of the reductions over 250 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 a ten-year period of wage tax, business taxes, I think is something that we, you know -- the argument always is that we can't afford it. Well, if we can't afford it today, when? I mean, there comes a point in time where you have to think out of the box and attempt to make dramatic changes for the future of Philadelphia, rather than thinking around the edges. So I think that the recommendations by the Tax Reform Commission should be commended and incorporated.
In your professional opinion and in your capacity as our city Controller, do you believe that we can afford fiscally the package as proposed by the Tax Reform Commission and the 13 bills that they drafted and that were introduced in this City Council?
I do. I think that what needs to happen is that we open up the books and records to the City of Philadelphia, and all of us that care about the future of Philadelphia. And that's 251 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 every member of Council, and the Mayor's Administration, and all of us. Look and see how we can streamline the government, produce the services that are necessary for this city to move forward, create an economic plan, a blueprint for the entire city, rather than the independent TIFs and KOIZs and other things that are popping up. And I think incorporate those reductions and those changes in the methods of our taxation to further enhance the future of Philadelphia. There may be pain in the beginning. There is always pain in the beginning. But I think that, rather than tinkering around the edges in the Five-Year Plan, just hoping the world doesn't blow up during the years that we are in office, I think is an injustice to the people we serve.
You have been a strong supporter and proponent of one of the recommendations, even before it was a recommendation, which is the -- often known as the land value tax. 252 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Can you tell us why you think it works well for Philadelphia?
I think it works well for Philadelphia because the majority of the homes in Philadelphia have been tract purchases, most of them -- I grew up in Oxford Circle. It was all built right after the Second World War. You have 1000, 1500 homes that used to be identical, but yet in some cases has a varying degree of real estate taxes. I have always believed that the emphasis should be on encouraging people to fix their homes. Because every time somebody fixes their home, it is less money we need for NTI or any type of program like that. Yet, we raise the real estate tax on somebody just because they are fixing up the home they live in. I have always had a problem with increasing people's taxes when there is no 23 income derived that benefit that we are taxing. So I think that the land tax, if 253 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 done properly -- and, you know, the compromise, which is acceptable to me, from the Tax Reform Commission, which the Mayor has incorporated, is a way of moving forward and one hoping will send a message to those people that land bank. There is a lot of land banking in Philadelphia, where companies come in and buy large tracts of land, allow the buildings to decay, the real estate taxes is reduced because of the decaying of the building, and effectively can destroy a neighborhood and then have an opportunity to buy up additional properties as the value goes down for people that have lived there all their lives. So I think it is a step in the right direction. And our analysis shows that over 87 percent of the people will have a reduction in the real estate taxes. Now, if you own a surface parking lot in Center City, yes, you will probably pay more. So, build a multi-level parking lot. And if you have inherited a home with 5 acres of beautiful landscaping, but you live on one 254 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 quarter of an acre, you know, there is a good chance you will pay more in taxes for the ability to look at a creek and open ground space that the average Philadelphian can't see.
Last question. You have, in accordance with ordinance passed by Council a couple of years ago, a matter that I worked on regarding primarily TIFs. And you have been responsive over the past, I think, two years -- the bill 13 has only been in effect for a little while -- with regard to giving the Controller additional responsibility to review these. Your letter that you send over with them usually has a fairly long -- I don't want to call it a disclaimer, but at least an explanation of what this is and what it is not. And I guess I wanted to query you with regard to, the ordinance requires certain things to be looked at and may not require certain other things. And I get the impression that that's what you are trying to 255 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 lay out with regard to the letter. Is it your view that more of those items that are not necessarily required in that process should become a part of that review process by the Controller's Office?
Well, as you know, Councilman, I had originally sought, when you had, you know, pushed for the additional responsibilities in the office, that I would be able to reach a conclusion whether I would agree or disagree that a TIF should be given at this particular time. That was not part of the legislation. So what I have tried to do is lay out with a disclaimer the fact pattern that can be used by all members of Council to make the ultimate decision of whether a TIF should be granted. You know, what I am concerned about is that, you know, TIFs in theory are good, but their application, with the lack of a citywide economic plan, is bad. That the PIDC and a variety of other agencies that have evolved, which I have 256 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 mentioned a number of times, don't use the call-back provision to see if the expansion of employment is truly happening and what is the real definition of blighted area. I mean, 5th and Walnut is a blighted area now, according to a TIF. You know, I wouldn't want to live at 4th and Walnut and find that out, when I am paying $3,000 a month in rental payments. But all that is not part of the way my office has been told to generate the information. And would I like to see it strengthened? I don't need to be able to say as the Controller whether I think in conclusion whether it is right or wrong. I think I can do that as a political person, I can do that independent of that. I think that's Council's responsibility and the Mayor's responsibility. I never liked to tread on other people's responsibilities and power. But I think that there should be a followup investigation that I would like to 257 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 see happen to make sure that there is a percent increase in employment over the next five years, and things like that. And then reduce -- you can reduce pro rata the amount of the tax forgiveness based upon that company not living up to its responsibilities that they told us in the first place.
If those kinds 10 of provisions or additional provisions were 11 added -- I mean, I think we have dramatically 12 slowed down in the TIF business here recently. 13 So do you think you would be able 14 to -- I mean, given the earlier testimony, I 15 am also reluctant to ask you to take a look at 16 anything else -- but given that the volume has 17 decreased significantly, do you think you 18 could handle those additional data requests 19 within the general confines of your office, or 20 would you need additional funding to be able to?
For that specific item, off the top of my head, I would say I would not need additional funding.
Would or not? 258 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
I don't think I would. Things like NTI, and you can bet on the fact that I am going to be become asking for money and for a lot of things I think we need to get the job done. But because we do the initial work and the compilation of all that information, that within a five-year period, if it was a five-year program, that we would then have the information available just to match and see what the growth is. I don't think that's a difficult oversight. But I think it is something that, hopefully, if it is announced that that's going to happen, it becomes a chilling effect to those people who say, I told them I am going to increase the employment by 20, but they are never going to check on me anyway.
I understand. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam Chair.
You are welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke. 259 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Am I to assume that when a Councilman stands up, he is going to come back and ask me a question?
You shouldn't assume that. Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Saidel, first with respect to one of your responses to Councilman Nutter, and your encouragement for an individual or company who has a surface lot, they should build a garage. The last time we encouraged a person that had a surface lot to build a garage, they came back to us and asked for a TIF, and we ended up funding it. So I am not sure that's a good idea.
I am just using that, Councilman, as an example. You know, it has to do with the availability of the property that's owned, where it is located. I mean, it is going to take some time to work out the numbers. But, effectively, someone with an open surface lot will probably pay more. Now, someone with a 50-story building in Center 260 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 City, within some of the councilmanic districts that overlap into Center City, will probably pay less because it is a better utilization of the limited land that we have in the City of Philadelphia.
Right. The question I wanted to ask you is somewhat related to that. I guess in my first year, in my first term, I had introduced a bill and actually gotten it passed. And it was kind of a replica of Councilman John Anderson's bill, the nonutilization tax. Are you familiar with the bill?
I remember -- I remember Councilman Anderson. I don't remember the specifics of the bill, no. 19
Essentially, the bill, for all intents and purposes, penalized an individual for underutilizing their property. It imposed an additional tax on a person that allowed their property to remain vacant for a certain period of time, similarly on a vacant lot. 261 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Can you tell me what the difference is between that bill that was passed and signed by the Mayor, or for some reason or another wasn't fully implemented, the difference between that and the difference between your relatively recent proposal, the land value.
I think the Anderson bill and your followup bill, which I think certainly had merit, I think the people that intentionally do not fix up properties that they own in order to reduce their real estate taxes should be penalized. I think one of the things the land tax does, it is a positive influence. In the sense, what I am trying to do is advocate people fixing up their homes, knowing they won't be taxed at the full rate that they were before because we are increasing the percentage that is the tax on land regardless of whether they fix it or not. The bill of the former Councilman, who was, I think, a tremendous leader, certainly when I was a youngster, was to 262 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 effectively -- it was a negative bill, in the sense that you are penalizing those people that do it. What I am trying to do is make it a positive.
I still am doing that. But part of the land tax is to, effectively, say to someone, if you are improving your home, we are not going to tax you as we did before in the full extent of the increase in that market value because we are increasing the value of the land as far as that ratio is concerned.
But you would, in effect, reduce the revenue generated to the city.
I don't believe so. Our numbers show that that's not the case.
If an individual is improving the property, right, and you are not imposing a tax as we currently are based on the improvements to the property, so you are reducing the level of revenue that you 263 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 would traditionally get under the current system, then you are reducing the amount of revenue to the city.
I think the hope is -- and I can give you all the information that you need to look at this for the backup to what my response is. My belief, and after going through this for a number of months and doing a sampling that was done by Drexel University, that effectively we will increase the amount of revenue, but it will be done through the enhancement of people improving the limited amount of land that we have available within Philadelphia County; rather than, you know, if there are areas, parts of Philadelphia that have been allowed to decay almost intentionally by people waiting for the next round of development, they are going to end up having to pay more real estate taxes than they would with the preponderance of it being based on the value of the building.
Wouldn't you do that by imposing the underutilization tax, by 264 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 increasing the tax on the person who is underutilizing their property?
Yes, we do that. I think this bill does both. It effectively penalizes people for not fully utilizing the uses of the land, but doesn't tax you the way we do now for improvements to the land.
I understand that. But my issue is, while you are increasing it on one side, you are reducing on the other. And at the end of the day, my concern is, obviously, the General Fund. You know I want to make sure we have a balanced budget. And I would like to see some limits in terms of what we impose on properties, because some areas of my district were getting killed with respect to that. But I think that you can achieve, one, the ability to encourage by penalizing the individual to fix up their property or build on a vacant lot by implementing the underutilization bill, and, in addition to 265 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 that, create an additional revenue stream. Because we know some of these people are simply not going to do it initially. So if we can impose an additional tax on that underutilized property --
We are, effectively, doing that, plus we are not going to tax people as they did before when they make improvements to their property. So not only is there -- by increasing the land portion, doing what you had originally thought and Councilman Anderson, but we are also saying to a person, fix up your home.
But you are, essentially, balancing out. We are not increasing the level of revenue to the city.
With that specific issue, I wasn't looking as much about revenue today, as long as it was revenue neutral in effect; but how it would increase the opportunities and incentivize a lot of the building of land that is now sitting fallow. I mean, we have, as you know, we 266 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 have more open ground in Chester County, so we have where they have farm land. If we can increase an opportunity for people to build, then I think in the long run the city will be better off than we are.
So that should be in addition to the abatement on new construction? Because that was, in fact, passed.
I believe that -- see, I don't have a specific problem with abatement. I don't even have a specific problems with TIFs. My problem is that we don't have -- and this may be well beyond your question -- we don't have an overall citywide economic development scheme to fit the puzzles in in relationship to tax abatements and TIFs and the KOIZ, which the Governor has put forth and the legislature has approved. All those things can't be looked -- they have to be looked at in isolation. And until we have an overall scheme, I don't think we can -- 267 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
I agree with you. Actually, Council passed a resolution to charge the city's Commerce Department, PIDC, and a couple of the other agencies to look at a broader, more comprehensive initiative.
I think the Mayor wants to have some sort of panel. I think it is well overdue, and I applaud him for doing that. Because you can't figure out where something should go until you have a plan, and then fit those answers to the puzzle within that overall plan.
Okay. Thank you, Madam President. Thank you, Mr. Saidel.
You are welcome. Are there any other questions or comments from members of the committee? The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
A quick comment for the record. 268 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Councilman Clarke, my recollection -- I was not here at the time, but working with Councilman Anderson -- my recollection is that there was a lawsuit filed almost immediately after that bill was passed. And I think by agreement with the Administration at that time, there was a nonenforcement agreement or consent decree, or whatever. And the bill is, actually, still sitting on the books. And I think the Tax Reform Commission recommended that we repeal it. That's all I can tell you. I wasn't involved in the court case.
Yes, Councilman, thank you. Yes, I am aware of the history on the Anderson bill. As a matter of fact, you and I talked about it at the time of the introduction. And we actually made some changes that the Law Department might pass the mustard in relation to the prior lawsuit. 269 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 And I think the political times and the individuals in question created the environment that allowed it to be put on the table as a result of the settlement. And I thought, given the political environment and the sponsor of the bill and the people in the Administration, that there would be no settlement. But, unfortunately, there were people in the government that didn't feel the need to implement the bill. I look forward to debating with the Tax Reform Commission their need to repeal the bill, and at that time I will ask that question. I haven't bothered to ask them yet. But I will interested to see the basis for it, if it has to do with the merits of the bill or simply their recommendation for the land value tax.
Councilman, you think the different political times and different political players cause different public policies?
I didn't read 270 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 that.
For the record, I would like to note that I am not involved in this conversation.
Are there any other questions of the city Controller, any comments? Thank you very much.
Thank you. We will now hear from the Board of Revision of Taxes. Good afternoon, and welcome. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Good afternoon, Madam President and members of City Council. My name is David Glancey, and I am the Chairman of the Philadelphia Board of Revision of Taxes. And with me today is our Executive Director, Rick Foglia; the Secretary of the Board Robert Nix; and Board members Dveral 271 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Silberstein, Charlesretta Meade, and Harvey Levine. So I don't want to assume that I know what is important to you, but let me try to proceed this way, and maybe it will move the testimony along rather quickly. The first part of our testimony, which really runs from Pages 1 to 3, discusses last year's budget. It also discusses what we are proposing or what we are requesting in this year's budget. It talks about the 2004 taxable assessment, which is roughly 3 percent more than it was in 2003. The second part of our testimony speaks to the service level enhancements that we always like to share with City Council. And thirdly, beginning on , we provide our annual market overview, combined with an analysis of the abatement programs for 2004. If you don't mind -- and I know there will be questions about the funding, our particular budget request -- if we would simply just, if you would take that written 272 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 submission and let it speak for itself. And then, of course, we will be happy to answer any and all detailed questions concerning those particular segments of our testimony. We would, however, like to devote more detailed testimony to our full value project this afternoon. And you find that beginning on of our testimony. If you don't mind, I would like to give you a little context. In October of 2002, in front of the City Council Finance Committee -- and some of you were at that Finance Committee -- the BRT raised the idea with City Council at that point of going to full value. In March of '03, the BRT testified before the Philadelphia Tax Reform Commission. And we suggested to the Tax Reform Commission that this may be a reform that would be interesting. And they, obviously, included that in their final report. In June of '03, both Ms. Meade and I briefed City Council, some of the members who are here, and certainly all of the staff 273 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 members of City Council, about full valuation before we went public with what our Equalization 2000 forms were to be. And this may be a little internal. But in October of '03, we began -- and I say, "we," the Board members and some of the senior staff -- began preparing the details to move from concept to actuality to get to full value. In December of '03, we rolled that out for our entire staff. In January of '04, we rolled it out to the public. And in March of '04, as you know, it became part of the Mayor's budget plan. Full value is the value a property will realize if sold on the open market. The BRT has always attempted to be as transparent as possible in its function and structure when dealing with the public; however, transparency is somewhat thwarted if the public doesn't understand what it is seeing. The best way I can describe this is, we have been -- I have been at many Civic and 274 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 community meetings over the last month or so. And there was a young lady who was a citizen of our city who absolutely thought we were very transparent. She agreed with what I just described. But I think her analogy is absolutely on target. What she said, she said, you know, at the BRT, with your website and everything that you have on it, and all the information you provide, when we call you, we get a lot of information. She said, it is like having this big, big kind of transparent window, picture window that we look into, except what we are seeing on the picture window looks like the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. You see an awful lot of activity taking place, and you know there is a lot of work going on, but we don't quite understand what it is.
Going to full value, we believe, will do away with that misunderstanding. When we say a property is valued at X, and that is the same as your assessed value, and the 275 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 millage rate, whatever it is, multiplied by that, that's your real property tax. Our point is to make it understandable. Our timetable for going live with this project is Calendar Year 2005 for Tax Year 2006. And our goal is to supply you, the Mayor, Finance Director, the Budget Director with revised full value taxable assessments in February or March of 2005 in order for all the policymakers to have enough time to decide what the new millage or tax rates on real property should be. These rates will be predicated upon the new values calculated by the BRT. And while that final decision rests with you and the Administration, the BRT encourages that both of you to make the total property tax yield for '06 revenue neutral. BRT members fully understand that this change is going to affect every citizen in the City of Philadelphia and in every neighborhood. And in order to help everyone understand this change, we are committed to an extensive educational and outreach program. 276 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 We have begun making public appearances at civic and community meetings, as well as meeting with various real estate industry and advocacy groups. We have placed on our website a link to the road to full value Power Point demonstration, which is explains visually and with some detail how we plan to value properties at their full value. We have written news releases, news advisories, given interviews to real estate trade journals and web-based journals about our project. The daily newspapers and some of the electronic media have covered our story, and I am sure there will be more coverage as we get closer to going live. We are committed to a policy of no 20 surprises. When we send notices with real values to real people, we don't want anyone to say, gee, I didn't know this was going to happen. While we are fully confident that we will be able to meet our goal of having full 277 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 values on all properties for Tax Year 2006, we are also cognizant that getting the values right is more important than getting the values fast. We are committed to getting the values right through direct observations, statistical modeling, in-house reviews, and public testing of our values. If we find that our values are not correct and fully defensible, we promise you and all the citizens that no notices will be sent until they are right. Finally, it goes without saying, but I am going to say it anyway, that we wish to work hand in hand with you and the Administration to make this transition as seamless as possible. As always, the BRT is open to any idea, suggestion, or concept that you feel will make our process better for our citizens. Please share your knowledge with us. And, with that, I thank you for your attention, and we are happy to answer any questions you may have. 278 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
Mr. Glancey, if you go to full value, wouldn't everyone's real estate bills increase dramatically?
No. On our Power Point demonstration, we actually show you three samples. There is the possibility -- there will be tax shifting, and there will be some properties that could get raised dramatically. A lot of that, Council President, depends on you. You are in charge of the tax rates. You have you are in charge of the millage rates.
What happens if the state does not amend Act 46? 279 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
We are going to proceed with our plans for full value. There is no question about that. We believe that valuing property now, if the state -- and I don't make that hypothetical jump. I believe that Act 46 will be technically amended to allow the millage rate to be reduced, because we are not really talking about millage. So, that's the language. We are talking about taxes. We are talking about revenue. I think the legislature and the government will very much understand that -- if there is an attempt to amend technically Act 46. However, just say under the hypothetical that you proposed, we should still go to the right value for properties. The question then is, if for some reason the millage rate cannot be reduced, 280 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 then I think we are back to fractional assessments, which I think is wrong, and I think it is confusing. But one of the things we are committed is not -- we are not going to get into a system where we see real property taxes rise 50 percent because there is no relief from the state in allowing you to reduce the millage rate.
That concerns me. That really concerns me. Would you explain how you determine the value of residential properties versus commercial and industrial properties?
How we will. We are meeting in the month of May with about four different software vendors. What has happened across the country and what we would like to join the rest of the kind of advanced jurisdictions in doing, is to have what is known as an automated valuation model. 281 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Our staff is beginning to gather all property characteristics data. And by that I simply mean, what does a property look like. We are also trying to get information that we can buy about the interior of a property. Does it have three bedrooms, does it have four bedrooms, does it have two baths, et cetera, et cetera. We take all of that data, and -- I am going to make this very simple -- we push it into a model, a piece of software that's going to model properties. And it is not going to take the whole city; it is going to be within GMA's so we have apples and apples and oranges and oranges. Secondly, we also take the information of our sales analysis, which we do now anyway. We have a three-year sales analysis that we currently use in our equalization program. We will take that information. And we will crunch the numbers of the property characteristics data to see what elements actually are causing the value -- 282 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 what is it that says, if a house that sells for $100,000, what four or five elements get you to that $100,000. We will crunch all of those together. And then using that information, extrapolate from that information of homes that sold to homes that didn't sell. Again, it is kind of what we do now, except what we are going to use is the full value. Instead of saying, well, it is -- my property is worth 100,000, but now we use 70,000, because that's the percentage we use, then we multiply that by 32, then we multiply that by the tax rate. Even intelligent people get confused with that. If it is $100,000 property, it will be $100,000 property. That's residential. There are also models that we use for commercial and industrial properties. There will be some sales information in that, but primarily those models will be two ways, actual income data for properties that are spinning off income. See, most of the downtown office building or retail centers or 283 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 shopping centers. And where we don't have actual income -- and, believe me, we have a lot of actual income data already because our folks are doing that manually -- we will find pro forma data, data that says the average in this part of the country and in this part of Pennsylvania, rent at a given shopping center will kick off as X, these are the, you know, the expenses, this is the vacancy. So, again, we will model with that, as well. But that's easier to do because you can kind of always check that. There aren't as many properties. The checking and the rechecking has to be done with 450,000, roughly, residential properties, where we really need, we really need the real estate community, the civic community, the academic community to help us once we show a product, to say if it makes some sense. But, that's how we intend to do it.
I know that they 284 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 had this same system in Pittsburgh and Allentown. For some reason they did away with it. Can you tell me why?
This is entirely different. I will talk about land value tax, if you would like, also.
I would like to know what the difference would be. I mean, do my colleagues know what the difference is? You do? Do you want to hear what the difference is? Do you want to hear what the difference is? No. You are just going to have to call me and tell me what the difference is.
I heard the Controller -- do you really know what difference is?
It is really, I mean, 285 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 if you want me to say a few words about it. Land value taxation is an entirely different concept than that you talking about full value. We are talking about putting market value equals sale price roughly. We don't want to use a hundred percent, which I think is used in the counties around us, or sale price, because full value makes more sense. And if I could just you a short example of that. On a given block of a hundred homes in the Northeast, there could be sales that 15 range between 70,000 and 85,000 dollars. Happens all the time. So, within those parameters, there is full value. The low end is going to be in the 70, 71, 72. The high end is going to be in the 85 area. Again, that's why we need to know the physical property characteristics, which add value to a sale, so that we can figure out, you know, which one should be at the low end and which one should be at the high end. 286 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 As I said, land value taxation -- and Controller Saidel kind of explained that. I mean, we in the process of what we are going to do, we are also going to value land, not just vacant land. Valuing vacant land is easy because you can kind of find sales. It is valuing the land that is under your house that is hard. Nobody knows what that's worth. If I asked you, I am sure, I said, how much is the value of land under your home, you are not going to know the answer to that. What we intend to do, again, is to use some kind of modeling to see if we can get that kind of right number. That will give you, all the Council people, a platform, at least, that if you decide that land value taxation is where you would go, you will have a platform of reasonably valuing property. Today it is merely an allocation. We are about 18 to 20 percent of the total value of a property. The property is $100,000, about 18,000 or 20,000 dollars of 287 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 that is allocated to the land. We didn't value it. There is no need to value it, because one figure is really the basis for the taxation, the combined land and building assessment. Right? Just there is only one number. Your assessed value at 100,000 today is $32,000. You don't care what portion of that is the land, nor do you care what portion of that is the building, because you are paying taxes based on that one number. Under land value taxation, it does make a difference because there are going to be two different tax rates. Land value taxation is, no matter how you cut it, a very radical reform, I think. And I think it is not something that's simple. I am not here to -- as I said, I think that's your purview, to debate fully and fairly land value taxation. One thing I would say, again, if you don't mind me saying this, is that I believe -- just now I am speaking as David 288 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Glancey, I am not speaking officially and I am not the policymaker -- I believe you have to be very careful about overpromising, you know, what land value tax seems to do. My sense is that there is lots of sloganeering around land value taxation and very little empirical evidence. You mentioned Allentown and Harrisburg and Pittsburgh. I have asked some folks five or six times, why did Pittsburgh get rid of land value taxation. And the answer I always get is, well, it's politics. Well, that doesn't do it for me. I mean, it seems to me that -- and I think you all know, as well -- if it is a good idea, and it works, and the citizens like it, no amount of politics is going to stop that from happening because it is good politics to be for something like that. So when somebody simply says politics and gives me know other reason, I question. I think land value taxation has, at least in what I have studied, land value taxation is supposed to incentivize folks to 289 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 develop land.
I don't think that that is the first tool that is looked upon. Somebody, I guess it was Councilman Clarke, raised the question about the parking lot and then the parking garage.
The parking lot is going to hold 100 cars and a parking garage may hold 500 cars. But if there is no market for 500 cars, why would you build it? Seems to me that the market has to drive development, number one. Secondly, the cost of money drives development, number two. And I don't doubt that taxation plays a role. I am just not sure that taxation plays the major role that some of the advocates of land value taxation says it plays. And, again, I am not here to -- we are not here to, as I said, kind of give it a full and fair debate. I am not saying that that shouldn't be something that this city ought to do. 290 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 But I think we ought to do it knowing full well what we are doing, as opposed to having rallies and having sloganeering and then just doing it because there seems to be a lot of activity around it. That's my sense of it.
All right. I will come back with a few more questions. At this time I would recognize Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I think you are absolutely right. I don't want to be part of reform just to reform, because lots of reform have turned out to be a disaster. So I think we do have to move slowly when we talk about land value tax, which I don't personally support. The first thing that I would like to point out to you is -- and I want to thank the commissioners -- that if you ever had a process, and I think I have said this to you every year, and I will repeat it again this year, if there was ever a process that works, 291 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 it is what you do. And even when people come from there that haven't necessarily gotten what they want, they still appreciate the fact that they have been treated fairly. And I think that's so important. Because President Verna and other members of this Council personally, staff, have witnessed hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that went through the process. And, again, not every one of them got what they wanted, but I didn't get one negative or any insulting or any -- anything that was derogatory as a result of their time there. Because, again, they realized that, in many cases, that their property was more valuable than they believed it was. So I just -- it was when they were both there. Is that politically correct. But it is a good process. I want to thank the commissioners, because they always, members of the Board, for treating people in a very fair and nice way, and a comfortable way. 292 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 And that's all I have, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, Mr. Glancey and all of the members of the BRT. I want to first certainly echo in a more serious way the comments made by Councilman Rizzo. Councilman Rizzo was serious, then I made a funny, as they say. So now I want to have the serious time, and I will adopt my very serious voice and demeanor. So, seriously, you provide a great service to the citizens. And I think, in many ways, and we have worked on these over the past couple of years, to try to shed some additional light on what the BRT is and what it is not. And you have helped to educate many people. And certainly let me be the first to say you have also helped to educate me 293 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 directly on many of the issues. And, regardless, on some of the individual pieces, whether we agree or not, we always maintain good conversation and a respect for each other's position. I think it is also significant that at least the past few years I have noticed the members of the Board come to the budget hearings as a further indication of the BRT's commitment to the citizens of the city. I wanted to -- I did want to ask you about land value, but I think we have gone through that one pretty extensively. Maybe the last question I would ask about it is, to the extent that you could come across any data on land value, what I've generally been struck by -- not that we should do what other people do just for the sake of doing it. I mean, I think other cities' experiences with things in many instances have proved good for Philadelphia to do them, and the reverse is often true, as well. What I have noticed about this issue 294 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 is that virtually no other major city in the United States of America has so far adopted this particular proposal. A number of smaller cities in Pennsylvania and I guess in other parts of the country. Do you have any perspective on that? And then I have one last question about land value, and then I will move on.
Well, yes. I mean, I think that perspective, as you just raised in your comment and question, should ring a bell for us. You know, if this has been something that is what it says it is, why -- and it has been around since the middle of the 19th century, why hasn't it been used more extensively. Now, in all fairness, it has been used rather extensively in Europe. But in the United States, it doesn't. The empirical evidence that I have seen -- and I can share some of this data with you -- it is not great. I mean, it is academic journals usually. Most of them are 295 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 economically oriented, as opposed to real property oriented. There are two studies. One out of, I believe it is, Northwestern University, where -- and I forget the professor, but I will find it and I will share this. I will give it to the Council President, and she will share it with you. Is that this gentleman who believed in land value taxation, he simply thought, at his conclusion -- and there is a lot of arcane economic mumbo-jumbo in some of it -- but he believed as his conclusion that it is a good system if we are maybe starting the world, starting the beginning of everything, maybe that is a system that could have been instituted. But given what urban America -- and he particularly talked about urban jurisdictions. Given urban jurisdictions today, he thought it might be impossible to really figure out what land value is, you know, in an urban jurisdiction. Secondly, now, this is somewhat old, 296 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 but it does come from Pittsburgh. And it is the Western Pennsylvania -- Pennsylvania Economy League, Western Section. And you may have even been aware of that; I don't know. I know I have some of that data back in my office. Again, I would share that. But this is old, this goes back to the '80s, probably about mid '80s. And, really, the conclusion of that particular study was that it was hard to tell whether land value taxation was in fact causing the kind of development that took place because there was a significant amount of public investment also taking place at the same time that could also have been causing this. So it was kind of up in the air. And, again, I really want to emphasize, I don't sit here today slamming land value taxation. That's not my point.
But my point is, again, I think just -- it is a major reform. And lots of information about it doesn't -- is very thin; very long, but very thin. There is 297 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 not a lot of depth to some of the information. And we should be looking at that, if we can.
Last question in this area. Given the large number of nonprofit institutions in Philadelphia, any perspective on the impact of having a land value tax in this city, given the size of the nonprofit community and any budgetary impacts at all?
Well, theoretically it shouldn't have any. Because right now there is no taxation on those -- on the land or the buildings.
You know, land value taxation really is one large tax abatement. I mean, if you think about it that way, that's the easiest way for me to comprehend it. A tax abatement says you pay taxes on the land and you pay nothing on the building for a limited period of time. Land value taxation, in its truest sense from Henry George, says the same thing. But we are now looking at split rate, as opposed to a 298 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 completely no rate on building. So I think the best answer to your question, I guess, Councilman Nutter, is that I don't think, at least to the best of my knowledge I don't think, it would have any impact on the budget. If I could just elaborate one further second. And it was kind of, I think, what Councilman Clarke and the Controller were talking about. There will be shifting. If there is going to be a 70 percent reduction, or 70 percent of the residences will have a decrease in value -- and, again, that information is only based on what the values are today and what the land allocations are today. If the Council changes rates, if the values go up, all of that has to be recalculated. And that's going to happen in the next couple of years, it seems to me. In any respect, if 70 percent of the residences will see a decrease, and it is revenue neutral, there is going to be an increase somewhere. 299 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 And it seems to me that it would be -- and, again, it would be those either property owners if they are individual residences, or they will be businesses that don't use land in an intensive fashion. If you are using land in an intensive fashion, you may see a tax decrease. If you are not using land in an intensive fashion, you will more than likely see an increase. But it can be revenue neutral. It doesn't have to be. It may not affect the budget; it will affect those who are paying taxes to fund the budget.
A hundred percent value, I know you talked about that in your testimony and possibly with the Council President asking questions. What I was concerned about in that regard, I thought I read in your testimony somewhere and made a note to myself, which I now can't find -- yes. Here it is. . You anticipate trying to, in your words, go live in Calendar Year 2005 for Tax 300 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Year '06. And then later you say, these rates will be predicated upon the new values calculated by the BRT. Has there been any discussion -- and, again, if you went over this already, just tell me -- do you think the BRT is in a position to really do a complete and exhaustive reevaluation of the true value of properties throughout the city, or should we hire someone to assist us? And are we talking about full-fledged appraisals or -- I mean, just how will you arrive -- I mean, given how you do it today and what the numbers are and what you think they are and what anyone sees on their notice, which is absolutely at the moment incorrect, how would we get to the right point?
We intend to do it in a hybrid fashion. And I think by "hybrid" I mean, we have a good professional staff that will be able to do the data collection that is necessary in order to get to the point of 301 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 attempting to fully value a property, property characteristics data and sales data. And I am simplifying, but, really, that's what it takes. In conjunction with that, here comes the hybrid part. We are interviewing throughout the month of May at least four vendors who will be consulting and selling software. Now, we are committed to try and do this. I don't know if anybody -- the successful vendor is not there yet. But what we would like to do, I guess, in the ideal world, the successful vendor will have a software program that is flexible enough for us to use to value all the various property types that we have in the City of Philadelphia, and be willing to stay with us for a year or two, consult with us down the line, to make sure that not only are we doing it right, but they are doing their job right. So, to that degree, it is a hybrid. Let me give you some numbers that 302 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 may be helpful. Part of the show I take on the road, it shows that Allegheny County, with CLT and Saber, when they did this, it cost them $26 million over and above what it cost them to fund their assessment office. $10 million, I believe, for Montgomery County, $8 million for Chester County. Lancaster County, I believe, was another significant 10 or 15 million dollars. To get somewhat to our budget, we are requesting -- and we may request more at some point -- we are requesting about four and a half million dollars in Class 200 and 300 and 400 money, total of $5 million, because we are requesting a recurring Class 100 $500,000 allocation.
That is for adding new employees that we think we are going to need in order to continue not only doing this process, but to maintain this process. Another part of that, Councilman -- 303 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
In '07 we have a significant amount of DROP taking place. We had a severe DROP in '04, '05 and '06 looks pretty good. But '07, significant amount of DROP. So these employees today will be filling in in '07.
The 500,000 will cover how many new employees? And is that for the '05 budget?
It is in the '05 budget, yes. If I could just get that. 18. Anyway, so it is that hybrid situation. Yes, I think the professional staff that we have to do what I just described is exquisite, and they will do that.
The $5 million in total, is that a General Fund request or is that something that, given the intensity of the work, as well as what we would expect as the pay-back, is that something that is possibly better funded out of productivity? 304 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04
We absolutely will work hand in hand with Council to get a productivity loan application for this. It currently is in the operating fund.
We have no objection to having it come from a productivity loan application. However -- and I really want to put this on the record -- there are two caveats. If it were in the Operating Budget, we would be able to use that money July 1, roughly. Assuming everything goes well, we would be able to use it July 1. And, also, the money that is in the Operating Budget, which is, as I described, 4 and a half million for 200, 300, and 400, and half a million for 100, is there. The productivity loan, we have to keep applying as we go through the process; getting information, figuring out what it is going to cost us, get it before the productivity loan committee, and then, 305 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 finally, an Ordinance back from City Council. The caveats I am raising are, one, we need to have the money as if we would be getting it from Operating Budget. And that's up to us to get that information to the loan committee. I understand. And, two, the amount of the loan should match the amount that is in the operating fund budget today. Those are the two things I would raise.
Obviously I don't make many applications to the productivity bank. Not that I am not productive, but I don't need a loan. You can't get the dollars from productivity up front, or make some arrangement where --
There is a process that we have to follow. And, again, part of that process we have to make sure that we do correctly. But, yes, I can't say to the -- in the productivity loan, the way the scheme is today, and I think 306 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 it is correct, we can't say, just give us the money and then we will give you the information thereafter. That would work for somebody like me, as you know, but it may not work for the rest of city government.
I understand. Lastly, on a hundred percent value, are you prepared to articulate a firm position with regard to -- I mean, obviously, Council and the BRT need to work very closely together about going to a hundred percent of value. I know there was the earlier discussion about Act 46, changing rates. And let's, for this discussion, say that there are no issues about our ability to change rates up and down. You would not -- or, would you agree, that you would not go to a hundred percent value until we have discussion here in Council about what the new rates should be based ongoing to a hundred percent?
Absolutely agree to that. 307 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Can I just say one thing, which really answers your first question. Part of getting to full value and using the time frame that I suggested here, we are committed to getting to that deadline.
However, if we don't have the right numbers, we will go -- we will not send out a product that is not a good product. I just want you to know. Because that may bring us into '07, as opposed to '06.
I think it is an issue where it really is more important to do it right --
-- than to adhere to a self-imposed deadline. I mean, I don't think the universe is going to fall apart.
One thing I also might add is that, we do not intend to do an equalization program this year because our staff, as you imagine, is fully involved in attempting to do the new program. 308 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 There will be valuation changes, new construction, obvious, undervaluations, those kinds of things. They will be done manually; we will not be using the automated function this year. Breathe a sigh of relief.
It should be a relatively quiet summer. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. Glancey.
Thank you. Mr. Glancey, am I correct in assuming that increasing the current real estate taxes dramatically will eliminate the value that the ten-year tax abatement was put into place for? We put that into place to spur development, and I think that has been extremely successful. Aren't we going to be -- are we going to be eventually eliminating that because of the --
That's a terrific question, and it really goes to those properties that are currently under abatement. 309 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Once we started full valuation, and then somebody files thereafter, the process will be the same as it is today. It is those properties that are currently under abatement that we have to be careful for. And one possible solution -- and we have been talking about this, and it seems to me this possible solution makes the most sense, although we are willing to hear other ideas -- everyone that currently has a ten-year tax abatement, you have, the city has, I guess all of us have, made an arrangement with them, an agreement, that for ten years you would be paying the same amount of taxes that you started in Year 1. What I would suggest that we do as a transition for those kinds of properties is, yes, increase the market value, but make the increase on the abated side of the value. In other words, exempt the increase until that abatement term has ended. So, for instance, if it is a $100,000 property today, and you are paying -- your real property tax is based on $10,000, 310 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 the value of the land. And let's say that property really is a $150,000 property. I would suggest we take the $50,000 and put it on the exempt portion of the market value, as opposed to putting it on the taxable portion of the market value. And then after the abatement period is over, then that person will know full well -- and we will notice them during that period -- they will no full well that at full value, just like they do today, their basis is no longer that abated value.
Well, I can see that people like the people who are at the auto malls, the parking lots, Sunoco in my district, for instance, what is it going to cost them to stay in business?
Once again, I think that's the land value taxation that you are referring to.
I don't know. I mean, that's -- that is not something that -- that's not what we are doing. 311 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 I mean, we are going to value everything. But then if there is a -- if there is more tax on land -- I mean, listen, if you want me to guess as a citizen, sure, it is going to be significantly more money for those land owners that do not intensively use the land. In the case of Sunoco, they can't. They have to have lots of land around their refinery. The same thing, I would assume, for construction firms, where they need large parcels of land to park heavy equipment. You know, at the end of the day, that equipment goes somewhere, and it ends up usually on some large lot. So that will also be part of that. But, again, what we see our role in this -- and, again, I am speaking -- when I speak as the Chairman of the Board and for our Board members, I think what we are saying is, we are just going to do the value. You are the policymakers, so you make that decision. As a citizen who has had some contact with this, I mean, I think my analysis 312 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 at first kind of leads you to where I am. And, secondly, sure, I think that, as we talked with Councilman Clarke, that tax shifting is going to adversely affect those properties that do not use land intensively, and you mentioned a few.
Who really produce a great deal of revenue for the city. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke, unless you want to yield to Councilman O'Neill.
I may be as strong an opponent of the land value tax as there is. And I have been looking at it for years. And it comes down to the same 18 thing. You have got a problem. This isn't 19 the solution. 20 Don't use a shotgun, when a rifle is 21 called for, and when you are going to hit a 22 whole lot of people who are innocent with the 23 shotgun and they are going to get hurt for no 24 good reason. 25 But I also think in terms of timing, 313 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 from a policy standpoint, even if we all agreed that land value is as good as Jim Tayoun and Jonathan Saidel think it is, the timing is terrible. You have the equivalent of a revolution going on at the Board of Revision of Taxes, going from the way we have been doing business and the way we have been assessing and sending out notices, to something totally different and more advanced and difficult to explain to people. It sounds like an easy explanation until you hear Mr. Glancey give the explanation very clearly, with a Power Point, over a period of an hour or more, to some pretty intelligent people. And it is very hard to explain. It is going to be -- these are the people that are really interested to come out to a meeting to hear about it. So I think trying to do two things at once, even if they were both good things -- and I think going to a hundred percent, as long as we are revenue neutral, is the way to 314 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 go. It is the way other jurisdictions do it, and it is really clear and fair to -- more fair to people. So I hope we don't do land value tax, because that's our choice. And I don't think it has -- it is a big part of tax reform at all. I think it is the one piece of tax reform that isn't tax reform; it is just a change, it is another way of doing it. Show me one large city anywhere that has done it. I am only aware of one medium-sized city, and that's Pittsburgh. And no one will accuse Pittsburgh of being a large city anymore. I think it is about 375,000 people. And they did away with it, I understand. It is mostly small communities that have tried it. And I don't know to what extent they have really done it. But I can assure you that if your house is valued at a hundred thousand, and you have got a side yard and a backyard in some neighborhood, and somebody in a similar house but positioned on a half million dollar lot in 315 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Center City has a house that's worth 600,000, they are going to win. You are going to start paying their taxes in part, because that's just the human nature of this. Is that if you are on a small piece of ground, you get your taxes lowered. If you are on a larger piece of ground, larger than you need to have the house in a row home situation, then you are going to pay. And I think it is going to be tough enough to sell a hundred percent. That is good. I don't think anybody can argue against a hundred percent, as long as we are revenue neutral in doing it. But the land value tax, there is a good reason we haven't done it up to now. And all due respect to the Tax Reform Commission, I think they went way beyond their scope on that one. But, so, I hope we are not going to rush to judgment on that, because there is a tax reform recommendation in that area. That is nontax policy, really. And if the state would give us the clear authority 316 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 to impose the tax we have had on the books since the '80s, the underutilization, or underutilization tax, or something to that, then we would be using the rifle. And we would be using it with legal authority, and not just to make good politics out of it; but it would, also, be good government policy. So I hope we don't get lost in that quest. Thing you.
Thank you, Madam President. Thank you, Councilman, for your endorsement of the nonutilization tax. Mr. Glancey, real quick, a couple of questions. One, can your department determine vacant properties and vacant land using your computer systems?
No; whether or 317 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 not the property is vacant, whether or not it is occupied.
I don't believe we can at this point. Can you hold one second, and maybe I can get a better answer for you. Yes, Councilman Clark, as Mr. Davey, our Director of Assessments, just informed me, we have coding that will identify vacant land, but the coding will not identify vacant buildings. Because there could be a building today that is occupied, and next month is not. So there is really not a code that we use. But vacant land, we can identify for you.
All right. And if you had the ability to interface with utilities, particularly Water, I guess Gas to some effect, Licenses And inspections, your ability to determine vacant properties would be enhanced considerably, if not definitely?
So utilizing the 318 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 current methods within all of the various departments -- and, actually, throw Revenue in there, since they were the ones who couldn't figure out a way to implement the nonutilization -- if in fact there was an order given by the various parties, the pertinent parties, to have their staff work on a strategy utilizing computer systems that would expedite that process, we can pretty much determine, actually using NTI, what properties were vacant, what land is vacant and not being utilized, no utility bills, no 14 tax bills being paid. We can determine that in relatively short order.
I think that is a system that the city should be working towards pulling together all of those elements. We agree. We are ready and willing, I think, platformwise to be able. Clearly, we can pass on what we have. We are also ready and willing now to get back from those agencies you mentioned. Again, the Director of Assessments 319 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 told me he believes that if you go to the neighborhood information system, if you are familiar with that from University of Pennsylvania --
Yes. We have it in our office now. We send a person to class. And you can pull up a property, get all of the records, tax records, recent sale, utility bills, all that.
All of that information is given to them by us. You know, so, it seems to me, if our systems were talking to each other better, we could also do the very same thing. But right now, I guess, I know in my office, probably the same as yours, I have one, maybe three licenses, I guess, that we can use that. And we have, you know, 180 people who are on PCs all day. And only having three that has that information is not real helpful. But we should be able to pull that all together
Okay. Good. 320 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 That will be very helpful to me in the foreseeable future. One other question, more of a personal district-related issue. And I just want to get on the record we had a community meeting about one of the developments that hopefully at some point will take place in the Brewerytown section, the western development. And I want to get it on the record as many times as possible and documenting the response. There has been some concerns raised by the existing community, which is, you know, essentially, a moderate-income neighborhood, row-home community, seen better times, frankly speaking, but people are still taking care of their homes, relatively stable. And there is a proposal to develop between 400 and 600 market-rate houses just adjacent to that particular community. And the first concern that was raised at the community meeting, what impact would that have on the local real estate taxes. 321 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Right now the properties are valued around 25, 30 thousand dollars, so the real estate taxes reflect that value. The developer is talking about building homes -- it started out, actually, at 159. It is now up to 225. And I expect by the time they build, it will be at least 250. What impact will that development have on the existing residents' real estate tax?
To get it on the record, that should have no impact on those properties that are what we will call the older properties. The older properties are a market unto themselves, as the newer properties are a market unto themselves. Comparable sales of those homes that are 159 to 250 really should have no impact on the homes that are currently valued at 25,000.
Won't have any? 322 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 It would be better if you say, "won't have."
Won't have. They will not have any. Because, really, Councilman, they are simply not comparable properties one to one. Sales of properties, sales of the older properties, will be compared to the older properties that haven't sold. And that's where the values will be extrapolated from. Sales of the newer properties will be compared to sales of the newer properties, and their values will be extrapolated from that. It seems to me they are two separate markets.
So, as proposed, if we develop -- because what we don't want to do is develop new market-rate housing in the adjacent community, and don't touch the community that needs some help. If the proposal is to renovate or construct new homes in the existing community and keep it at a moderate level market sales 323 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 price, then it will not have the negative impact in terms of rising real estate value for those people in those communities; right?
Again, as long as they are completely different types of housing, two different markets, then the sales will have no 8 impact one to the other.
All right. I just wanted to get that on the record again. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just for a minute, equalization. Some jurisdictions, when they do equalization, really do look at the property. I mean, they put a notice on the door and say, would you call, we would like to set up an inspection. I assume they don't do that at every home, but they do it where there may be a question. It is very difficult, Mr. Glancey, 324 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 for us to explain to people how their taxes go up, when no one really made a personal visit. Or, you know, we hear your plea to people to make sure they have photographs, they talk about the discrepancies. If we move forward to something different that's better -- and I underline "better" -- will we ever get to the point when we do equalization, come up with a more formal -- and I assume you would need more money -- to physically inspect our inventory to be able to determine with a professional opinion the value of a property? Because, again, it is all I hear. How do they know what my property is worth, they never were in it. Then I tell them somebody rode by or walked by. It really doesn't cut it.
That's a really good question. Let me start by going to the beginning of it. Probably not. It will cost over $26 million to send individuals into everybody's house in the City of Philadelphia. That's what was spent in Year 2002 325 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 in Allegheny County just to have people -- I mean, they did the whole process, don't get me wrong. But that was going into every property. Now, let me give you some comfort, having said no about that. The comfort level is that there are probably four data elements that will give you 90 to 95 percent of the value of a property. One is location. You don't need to go into a house to see the location. I mean, you are there, you are outside. Two is the square footage. We can get that swear footage on a house that's sold and look at properties that are very similar. And let me add -- and this is a terrific new tool that we have not yet utilized, we will utilize it in the summer, but we now have it. I have it on my PC. It is called pictometry. Pictometry has the entire City of Philadelphia photographed for us. All of our evaluators will have that. You can zoom in to -- I don't know 326 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 what the angle is, but I have done it on my machine. You can zoom in and see your property, Councilman. I can then take the mouse and outline your property, and it will tell me the size of the lot that your property is on. And it will also, if I do it properly and use another tool, it will tell me the square footage of your property to within 6 inches. So we will have the square footage and the location. That's two elements. The third element is the condition of the property. Condition of the property, at least exteriorly, we can do. And here is where we fall a little bit. We are never going to be appraisers. I mean. Our folks have -- are appraisers, but we can't appraise every property. We are assessors/evaluators. So that means we have to do it in a mass fashion. So those three elements, coupled with, what did I say, the size, the location, the condition, and -- I forget what the fourth element is. But that will get us about 90 327 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 percent. And we don't need to go inside usually to get that kind of information.
You have to come up with a new name for that technology. Say it again.
No. We are a licensee, along with, I believe, the police department, maybe L & I, the GIS of the City of Philadelphia. And we have paid into this fund. We are all sharing it. All these departments are sharing it. So it is not something that will be on mine that you can get.
So the Fire Department, if there was a fire in a particular address, they could actually, at command headquarters, get a feel for what they are dealing with.
These pictures were taken in December. So if the fire takes place between this December and next December, you 328 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 will see what the building was. I don't know. The fire departments should be part of this. The Streets Department should be part of it, as well.
The Fire Department should be. There is nothing more important to see something, especially --
And that's a separate tool, over and above what we are talking about doing with our other vendors. But it is a terrific tool for our people. Because what it does is, save our folks from having to go out, take the tape measure or the little walking stick that you see appraisers use, and do that. They can do it in the office.
No; they were taken by airplane that made north-south east-west grids. The angles are all oblique angles, so you can do a 360 in all of these buildings. In playing with it myself, it is extraordinary. You can find decks that you 329 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 wouldn't be able to see from the street and you wouldn't want to trespass on somebody's property. You can see other structures that might be in somebody's backyard that you may never know of. One thing about privacy that I think is good about this, nobody is interested in anybody's window. Once you get to, like, 200 percent, the pixels break up. So that you can never really -- it is very difficult to see a human being. You can see cars, you can see dumpsters, you can see air conditioners, and big air conditioners, and fireplaces, that add value to properties.
Why, yes, Madam 330 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 Chair. Thank you. First I would like to, again -- I don't know how many years I have got left with Mr. Glancey, one of us or the other -- but I want to just say publicly any chance I guess that no one will ever go before a public body, a tribunal, and have a better experience, whether they win or lose, because of the way they are treated, and the way they are treated by Mr. Glancey and his Board.
But I hope that when the day does come -- and I hope it is not DROP oriented, because I think Mr. Glancey is a good example of the exception why we should keep somebody after DROP, if they are in a special situation, particularly with all this going on, with the changes at the Board -- but that it comes from -- the person that's appointed to replace him, when it does happen, is someone on the Board. Because I would hate to see an outsider, not knowing the rich history of the fine treatment citizens receive, to try to duplicate it. 331 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 So, secondly, for one -- so, first I am hoping you stay. And, secondly, for one of your team to replace you. But having said that, I will disagree with you on the example that Councilman Clarke asked for and put a pitch in for caps, at some fairly low level, maybe or percent. I think 4 is too high. It must have been election euphoria or something last year. I don't know. But I know 10 percent is the Center City number, and 3 or 4 percent is the neighborhood number. But, let me give this scenario. I can protect Councilman Clarke's situation with caps. I can tell you that unless Brewerytown is different than all the other areas that have been redeveloped, not just in Philadelphia, but around the country, that the prices won't match the 250's or whatever the prices are across the street, but they are going to go up astronomically the closer you are to the Brewerytown project. And once that block is done, it is going to go back. And that's a good thing for 332 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 anybody who is selling. It is a bad thing for anybody who is staying there. And I believe that caps are the way you protect and serve long-term homeowners who have invested and continue to invest in the community. Because they are sitting on an asset that is yielding nothing, that is not related to their income. And, yes, we wish everyone the success. These people would not be hammering Councilman Clarke if they had a cap, because they would know that 3 or 4 percent is something that they don't have to worry about, like they have to worry about some other incremental increase, 10 percent being the lowest anybody has mentioned in a buffering situation. And I can tell you, if those houses go up the way I think they will, based on these numbers, 25,000 across the street from 250,000, buffering is going to be the same as a cap. Because these people are never going to get out of the buffer. The 10 percent, which is what a lot 333 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 of people are still talking about now as a buffer, the same people that wanted the 4 percent cap and thought it was fine are going to have a forever buffer. If they can't go up more than 10 percent in a year, it is going to be all the time. And percent is a lot in a given 9 year for somebody who is going to die in their 10 house, or who doesn't have a lot of income, who is not working, a fixed income. So this may be a good reason to look at our -- revisit our cap situation. And we are not the only place. We wouldn't be the only place in the country that has it. A whole lot of jurisdictions have these. They don't call them caps, there are other fancier names for them, but amounts to the same thing. Can't go up more than a certain percentage a year. And it makes the person still vote for Councilman Clarke and not be mad at him because their house is going up in value, which is a good thing normally. So I think with some modest caps we 334 OPERATING BUDGET - BILL NO. 020455 - 5/3/04 can help that person, we can help Councilman Clarke, and still give the city some increased revenue from a very unfair tax. Thank you.
Thank you. Any other questions or comments from members of the committee? Seeing none, thank you. Thank you very much. This committee will stand in recess until tomorrow, May 4, at 9:30. Thank you. 4:30 p.m. (Public Hearing adjourned at 4:30 p.m.) - - - 335 C E R T I F I C A T I O N I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Monday, May 3, 2004, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE _________________________ DEBRA A. WHITEHEAD