Roughly nine months. 60 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313
In order to allow for then the inspection period to completed and then a reporting period because obviously the department has to compile a certain amount of information. Is it your perspective that that would have a tremendous impact on the Department's ability to inspect the schools?
I believe so. As the Managing Director stated, we currently conduct a certain type of inspection now. Our inspection right now primarily consist of fire safety type inspections because the inspections that are conducted are conducted by our commercial industrial fire unit and their primary concern is issues related to the Fire Prevention Code. That's their primary sole responsibility. What the bill entails would be more comprehensive because it requires additional type of inspections for lead quality as well as water quality. We have not been coordinating our inspections in the past with other departments. We primarily schedule our inspections. There is a scheduling component where we do have to contact the schools in advance to let them know 61 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 that we are coming and that we are coming to do the inspections. We just don't show up on a given day to disrupt --
I understand that. I appreciate that. Now, from your perspective and based on your experience, is it better to have a more extensive inspection or a less extensive inspection?
I don't understand exactly -- extensive to the extent that what we currently conduct, we conduct an extensive inspection under the jurisdiction of L&I. Whether or not you're speaking of other entities --
Well, I think what we're talking about is a more coordinated and more extensive inspection process at the schools. Is that a good thing or is that a bad thing?
Okay. That was smart. 62 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 Now, the inspections that we're talking about, are the people who do whatever inspections they do, are they somehow limited either by time, background, experience that they can't do the kinds of inspections that are laid out in the bill simultaneously?
Well, from an L&I perspective, our inspectors are specifically trained to detail to deal with inspections that we cover under the code that we enforce. We're not trained to deal with inspections outside of our purview.
The inspections that we currently conduct are inspections that are covered by the Fire Prevention Code and Property Maintenance Code. That's what we have training to deal with.
So who covers General safety issues, electrical system, lead paint --
Hold on for second. You've made reference to and the 63 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 Managing Director has made reference to the water quality issue. I've, one, talked to the Health Commissioner about that. Two, we tried to cover that but if we didn't cover it completely by making reference to the protocol that's already in place with the Health Department that they worked out with EPA. Certainly, we can make some adjustment there. No one has put forward any language that would rectify that particular problem. That's an issue that was just raised about three weeks ago. So who covers all these other issues?
Lead paint, lead issues are covered by the Health Department on a referral to L&I, but the Health Department would be the primary --
Is that on a complaint basis or is that on an annual inspection basis?
It would be on a referral basis. I don't know what they do in the way of inspections.
Define "referral." 64 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313
I can define that by virtue if you allow me to go back to my seat and obtain my copy of the Property Maintenance Code. I can read that section of the Property Maintenance Code.
I don't need the textbook definition of it. Do you mean by referral that someone has actually made a complaint?
No, but there's a section in the Property Maintenance Code that specifically deals with lead paint and the responsibilities of the Health Department and their responsibility to L&I would just like to read that section.
Okay, yeah. Before do you that, the Managing Director expressed a concern. So are all of the buildings inspected every year?
Councilman, I cannot say to a certainty that all buildings are inspected on an annual basis. I know that we do get around --
Why can't you 65 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 tell us that?
I just really can't. I do not have that information with me presently.
Based on your experience, do you believe that every building is inspected every year?
Based on my experience, I would say with the resources that the Department has, possibly no. 11
The same commercial industrial inspection unit, I might want to point out for the record, that the same commercial industrial inspection unit also inspects oil refineries, day care centers, nursing homes. There are only inspectors in this unit that do 18 all those types of inspection as well as high 19 rise buildings, so... 20
We currently don't have 66 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 any plumbing inspectors in the Department.
You don't have any plumbing inspectors in the Department?
The Department currently has no plumbing inspectors -- I take that back. We do have one inspector possibly left, but the rest of them have been dismissed from the Department so we have no plumbing inspectors other than the one inspector who we currently still have employed in the Department.
What is that, a temporary relocation to another jurisdiction?
As it relates to the schools, have you been keeping -- because we need to be able to be very much aware of what the reform commission is doing. Are you aware that currently the reform commission as such is facing 67 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 out the maintenance workers that we have within the school system? MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: No. I have not been involved in that and I have not monitored that.
But you're not aware of that situation? MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: No. 10
That they have decided almost that they will be contracting out for asbestos, other issues, and they actually have been given pink slips to a lot of the workers that maintain the buildings that we have. MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: No, I was not aware of that.
Councilman, I would just like to read that section for the record that I had referred to earlier related to lead paint.
It's found in the 68 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 Property Maintenance Code, Section PM-305.6 titled "Lead Paint," and it states that lead paint as defined by Section 6-403, subsection 1, subsection a. of the Philadelphia Health Code shall not be permitted to remain on interior structures of any dwelling, rooming house, dwelling unit, or rooming unit occupied by children when the Department of Public Health determines that its presence creates a health hazard. Failure by the owner to remove the hazard shall authorize the Department to declare the premises unfit pursuant to Section PM-307.3. And if I could interpret that section 15 for you. The Department of Health makes the determination regarding the hazard of lead paint, but the Department of Licenses and Inspections based on the determination by the Department of Health and the referral from the Department of Health pursues the other enforcement remedies of this section related to declaring the premises to be unfit. Your bill also includes educational use groups in this category, and those use groups would be declared unsafe instead of unfit because 69 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 unfit exclusively only applies to residential properties and unsafe applies to any structure.
Last a year and a half ago -- actually, more than that. I held extensive hearings on the problem of lead in the water in the school system. And there was very little knowledge about that problem from the City's side and there was very little information that was forthcoming from the Health Department as to what was the problem in terms of water and what the inspections that were being held. And we still at this date and time, we still don't have a full answer as to what the solution has been in terms of that problem and whether all of the schools have been inspected by the City to be able to -- because I know the EPA was involved, but I don't know whether the city has done all of the inspections that are necessary to certify that the water in every school is safe. MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: The City, the EPA, the Water Department, and the School District have been working together on this one for about the last two years and we can produce for you a full report on the status of what's 70 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 been done to remediate those schools where there's been found to be an unacceptable level of lead in the water.
I believe that perhaps this bill might be a part of the reaction that we had to the hearings that I held here and that really there were very little answers forthcoming on this problem. And as you say, the report is still to be done and -- MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: No, we haven't been required to give a report, but all of the information is there. All we have to do is compile it.
But we still have schools in which water is given to students in bottles because the plumbing is not fully corrected. MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: Right. Some of it is a plumbing problem and the EPA basically arranged a schedule for how this is to proceed. The City's job was to monitor that arrangement. We do have them on a monitoring format to make sure that they're staying on the schedule that EPA put out. This is a joint 71 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 process where the City monitors the agreement reached with EPA.
Do you have a list of the schools that are still not in compliance? MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: Yes. I'm sure that the Health Department has that.
Can you please make that available? MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: Yes.
Thank you. Madam Managing Director, let me just mention, this is actually the second version of this bill and the water quality issue that's been mentioned own a couple of occasions now, I did ask when the concern was raised about terminology and what certain things mean, I did ask a while ago for any proposed amendments or adjustments or clarifying language on that particular point. Just so you have an understanding, I do not have anything at this moment and I'm certainly open to that discussion. But you need to have at least that background information that a request was 72 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 made. If somebody's got a better way of explaining this, I'd be glad to hear it. MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: My understanding, Councilman, is that they did receive that and they are currently working on it. They had not completed it. It was a little bit more complex, my understanding was in talking to folks, and they want to do make sure that they had it right.
Okay. Well, I can appreciate that. All right. So, what I'm taking out of this is, we cannot say today with certainty that all of the buildings get inspected on an annual basis. We cannot state with certainty, some may just have to do with information available at the moment that all of the buildings are safe. I'd be glad to work with you on these issues. And at the same time, I think the record should at least be made clear, the requirement for this proposed certificate does not go into effect until August 1, 2003. I think that there was some concern -- I can understand a concern, but quite honestly, it is, you know, not 73 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 necessarily needed at this point that somehow there is going to be a direct impact on the opening of schools in September. One, Lord knows, there will be already, I'm sure, enough confusion with regard to schools in September. But this is a start of a process, and the only thing that would be required at the moment is the reporting requirement based on information that at least, according to Mr. Haigler, much of it is probably either gathered or in the process of being gathered and it's not required to be put together until later on this year. So, I mean, one, I'm certainly more than pleased to work with you on it; two, I'd certainly like to get something that makes some sense done. But also I think that any of us should certainly feel somewhat compelled to be able to with certainty say that the buildings are being inspected on an annual basis, that it is someone's coordinated job and responsibility to do it, and that we can tell parents and kids and teachers to have a certain comfort about what kind of en condition their buildings are in. Let me ask this question: Is there a 74 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 specific reporting requirement about deficiencies at buildings when an inspection is made? Who has a responsibility for corrective action and where can these reports be viewed?
To answer your question, Councilman, the reporting requirements are that we do issue violations notices to the persons when we uncover violations of the Code. We follow the enforcement procedures that are in the Code as far as taking those persons through the enforcement process if they do not comply to violation within the allotted time period for compliance. Any person can obtain a copy of any violation that's written against any building by visiting our Department's Central Clerical Unit. We do provide copies of violations against buildings, structures. If you even have a computer that's linked to the City's information system, you can view just by putting in the address any violations that may have been listed against a particular property. So that information is available out there.
Are the school personnel at the building level aware of what the 75 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 violations are in their building and do they get a copy of the notice?
The notice does go to the responsible party of the school, if that should be the superintendent or the building facilities manager, whoever's listed as the person in charge of taking whatever corrective steps.
I understand that. I understand that. There are a lot of people who are in charge or responsible. What I'm asking is, I mean, fundamentally, at the building level, the principal is responsible for what goes on at the building.
My question is, a violation notice is written. It goes whereever it goes, it can go to Mr. McGlinchey, it can go to Jim Doosey, it can go to Mr. Nevels, it can go to the Governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. All I'm asking is does it go to the principal of the school so that he or she knows what's going on at their school or not going on at their school? 76 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313
Okay. We at least agree on that today, okay. All right, who's going to work on this in terms of whatever the concerns may be or any proposed amendments or anything? MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: I will appoint one of the people in my office to oversee the process and bring the relevant people together to put together and to work with you.
Okay, all right. Well, what I'd like to do is there is one amendment that needs to be made. I would like to move the bill. We're going to work on the bill 18 and we'll make whatever amendments we need to make later on. MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: I think we know of one amendment now. My concern is there may be others that need to be worked on with this as we go through it.
You have one now? MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: No. 77 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 That's the problem. Since I don't have any of the reports from the operating departments --
Right, I understand. MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: I don't feel comfortable saying that it's okay without having their review.
Well, I understand that. What I'm saying to you on the record is, you're saying you're going to designate someone to work with us. I'm prepared to work with you. There is one amendment. I'd like to make that amendment, move the bill out, it's going to sit and then we're going to work on it and make whatever amendments we need to make later on. But I would like to keep a certain level of attention to this. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon. I have some questions, and I'm not sure that you'll be able 78 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 to answer them, but I have some concerns about the implementation -- although I, like you, agree with the spirit and intent of this bill, but given the uncertainty of the Philadelphia School District in particularly any code compliance that is required may fall -- obviously will upon the School Reform Commission, I'm assuming. Are they in the loop at all in this process? Are they familiar with this bill? Have you all had any discussions? And I guess I should ask the bill 13 sponsor also that. I just want -- because ultimately, as is stated here just about every Thursday when thre's a speech by the majority, it's quite clear that we don't have a clue as to what it is the SRC is going to do with our Philadelphia School System which is of obvious concern. I'm just not clear as to, first of all, their ability to resolve any of the code compliances or their willingness to resolve any of the code violations, what role they will play in this process. MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: One of my concerns, Councilman, is we have not had an 79 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 opportunity to talk with the School Reform Commission or the State around the implications if there are code violations. That's one of the groups that I would like to engage in any kind of conversation, given that there may be code violations and they do have to be dealt with at the authority of both the School Reform Commission and the State.
All right. Another issue. With respects to, I guess, the ultimate closure or non-opening of a school is discussed in the terms of, I guess, the L&I Commissioner making that determination, it talks about substantial compliance. Do you have a sense of what that could possibly be?
(Shakes head.) MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: I would definitely not have a sense of what that would be. And I think those are the kind of details, again, that we would like to both discuss and work out to a level of detail where people know and going in what we're looking for, what is the definition of substantial compliance, what happens, what are the time lines for completion 80 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 of any code violation, and at what point is the building considered safe for our children and faculty and staff to be in although there may be substantial compliance without a hundred percent compliance.
Okay. And under the current form, the L&I Commissioner would make the determination based on his expert analysis? MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: I'm sorry, I have a four-alarm fire that I'm trying to follow at the same time.
Oh. MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: I believe that there needs to be an integrative group as all of these don't fall under the purview of the L&I Commissioner and that there needs to be someone who takes full responsibility of all of the departments that might be involved. And from a quick survey, it looks like the Water Department, L&I, the Health Department, and perhaps the Fire Department.
Okay. I guess I don't know how I can do this and I guess I have to really address it to the sponsor. 81 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 Councilman? In the earlier testimony, you've referenced the fact that this bill, the special certificate would not be required until 2003, is that --
And you also indicated that you would like to move the bill 12 today?
I do have a small concern that there apparently seems to be a substantial number of issues or amendments that need to be addressed and I'm wondering why since the August 2003 date is the date for implementation why we wouldn't simply wait and do the amendments --
Because there's a reporting requirement later on this summer, Councilman, about any information that the department may have on buildings they've already inspected on August 15th that has no impact on 82 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 school operations.
Are you saying we requiring an ordinance to get the information that I'm understanding that if not in place soon will be in place? MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: Right. I mean, we're willing --
I'm saying are we required to have an ordinance to get this information the from the Administration or the SRC or whomever.
No. People can agree to give us whatever they want to give us whenever they want to give it to us. I mean, you asked me a question about a timing issue. There is a reporting requirement for this upcoming August 15th, and I do want to keep attention on this particular bill. I'm not going to be irresponsible in seeking to do something with the 83 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 bill and I'm assuming that we're working in good faith. On the other hand, if we're able to work something out, there's no reason not to move the bill to the next step. But I clearly understand that there is additional work to be done, and if we're able to reach some level of agreement, that's fine. I understand that the Managing Director and a couple of the departments may have some concerns. I would expect they would based on the information put on the record today, but a bill like any other bill.
And I actually have some concerns and I'm probably a partner in some of the process that has taken place as it relates to reporting bills out of committee. I think that we too oven report bills out of committee with work to be done and it finds itself on the final reading. And at the end of the day, the consensus may be reached or may not be reached. It's simply a matter of a person being able to get enough votes to pass the bill. And the spirit of the discussion at the public hearing, it was thought that a consensus would be reached prior to the final passage, but I found 84 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 that not to be the case on several occasions. And because of the importance of the bill, because I truly believe in what is you're intending to do with this bill, I', just a little concerned about proceeding out of committee -- you're sponsor so it's your right to ask to have that done with all these open ended issues. From what I understand, based on this dialogue over the last 45 minutes, there's a substantial amount open-ended issues.
We may have one difference of opinion about how substantial either the amount of outstanding information is or how substantial some of the issues are, but as I said, Councilman, I'm going to be responsible on this matter and work through those issues. I want to keep attention focused on this. I believe that the Managing Director and all the other agency heads will do that. At the same time, I feel very, very strongly about the issue of safety in the schools both for the children and the people who work there. And I don't think I can in this record completely express the depth and seriousness of my concern about this 85 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 particular issue. I will do it to the best of my ability, but I do not want to lose focus on this particular issue and I do feel strongly about it and feel compelled to keep the issue in the forefront of the attention and minds of the people who need to pay attention to it, and I'll certainly do my best to exercise good judgment in terms of when the bill is ready to go and when those unanswered questions have been answered in a going-forward basis.
Councilman, I, like you, think this is a very important issue, feel equally as strong. I'm just simply referencing the fact that there have been a number of questions that were asked by you, in particular, that the individuals testifying couldn't answer. And I actually had some of those same questions. Fortunately, you got to them before I did.
But I'm just wondering because of the timing issue, and I understand that you said there is a reporting 86 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 requirement in August and I understand that from the Managing Director that she's fully willing to comply with that requirement separate and aside from this particular bill. I'm just simply wondering why we can't hold it and work our the kinks.
Councilman, I have to admit to you that, quite honestly, some of the responses or the inability to respond -- this is no comment about our Managing Director who knows that I respect her deeply. But the inability to answer some of these questions, quite honestly in the course of the hearing, made me that much more compelled to seek action and to have some movement on this particular bill. I will also share with you that today is the first day that there has been any formal response to any of the issues that have been raised since the initial bill was introduced on May 2 or since the bill in front of us presently, the second bill, was introduced on May 9th. Had these issues been raised at that time or shortly thereafter, we don't introduce bills in secret, we do them on Thursday in an open public session. I would have 87 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 been working from the afternoon of May 9th or May 2nd on these particular issues and maybe we'd actually have answers to all of these questions today.
Point of information. This thing started an hour late. I know it wasn't your fault, but you are a rather speaker and you are part to blame for that so you need to be punished for that a little bit.
How would you feel, considering Councilman Clarke's concern --
I'm assuming that will be added to my time in purgatory.
How about if we vote this out of Committee, if that's all right with you if you would promise to hold it on the calendar until you work out with the Managing Director -- I think you put an undue time restraint for August 15th, and that date's not important -- 88 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313
What if that 8 doesn't get to that August 14th date, though? Do 9 you think we can do it by then, Managing 10 Director? 11 MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: We are 12 willing to work with the August 14th date. And 13 Councilman, people have been working on this. 14 Unfortunately, they're working on a lot of other 15 things at the same time and to do a thorough job doesn't mean they should drop everything else they're doing for any one bill.
Madam Managing Director, I don't expect anybody to drop anything for me. As long as we're all going to respect each other's time. I'm a little busy, too. MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: Right. But this has gotten attention. People did not ignore it
All right. 89 6/4/02 - LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - BILL 020313 MANAGING DIRECTOR RICHMAN: People have been working on it and people are struggling to come up with the right recommendations
Okay. Everybody comes to work ever day, everybody's busy, everybody's doing whatever it is they're doing. I don't expect any special preferential treatment, I don't expect anybody to drop anything for me, but if you want to come and play and talk about something, then, you know, be prepared.
So do we have an agreement on that between both sides here?
Thank you, Councilman, managing Director Any other questions for these witnesses from the Members on the Committee? Seeing none, this concludes the public hearing. - - - 90 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC MEETING COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - - - Public Meeting conducted by the Committee on Licenses and Inspections, held in Room 696, City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the above date, to consider action on the following: BILLS 020310, 020313 - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, Chair COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER, Vice Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILWOMAN JOAN KRAJEWSKI COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - 91 6/4/02 - LICENCES AND INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING
We'll now go into the public meeting. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter for the purpose of withdrawing Bill 6 020281.
Thank you Mr. Chairman. I move that Bill No. 020281 be formally withdrawn from consideration. (Duly seconded.)
Thank you. It's been duly seconded. All those in favor? (Aye.)
All right, that's withdrawn. I also recognize Councilman Nutter for a motion regarding Bill 020310.
Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 020310 be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation and a further recommendation that the Rules of Council be suspended so as to permit First Reading at the next session. (Duly seconded.) 92 6/4/02 - LICENCES AND INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING
It was duly noted and seconded. All those in favor, aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it. The Chair recognizes the illustrious Councilman Nutter for a motion on Bill No. 10 020313, I believe it's an amendment, Councilman.
First, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to propose an amendment. If you look -- the easiest way to describe this is on under A-703.1. It presently reads "Special occupancy requirement for structures in Use Group E: No structure in Use Group E, the Educational Use Group as defined in subcode B of Title 4," insert "owned or operated by an entity to which the City provides substantial funding," that's the entirety of the amendment. Mr. Chairman, I move the adoption. (Duly seconded.)
The amendment has been moved and duly seconded. All those in favor? 93 6/4/02 - LICENCES AND INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING (Aye.)
The ayes have it. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter for a motion on the amended Bill 020313.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that Bill No. 020313, as amended, be reported out of this committee with a favorable recommendation and further recommendation that Rules of Council be suspended so as to permit First Reading at our next session. (Duly seconded.)
Nobody opposed. It's unanimous. That's it this concludes the meeting of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. (Committee proceedings end at 94 6/4/02 - LICENCES AND INSPECTIONS - PUBLIC MEETING o'clock p.m.) - - - 95 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia's meeting of the Committee on Licenses and Inspections of Tuesday, June 4, 2002, are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________, Josephine Cardillo Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)