Would you be 142 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 prepared to give that information?
I think that pretty much disposes of the -- if it was so easy for this body to get that information, for the City of Philadelphia to say they couldn't get it boggles the mind. We thank you very, very much, and we want to commend you for your forthrightness in coming forward. I think we're going to see more of you as this matter progresses. We're going to follow the injunction of Reverend Hill to follow this until justice is done. We hope it's soon, but if it's not soon, I'm telling you, we're going to be as persistent as it's humanly possible to be to bring justice, full justice, to everybody as quickly as possible. Thank you very much, Mr. Barnett.
Thank you, Councilman Cohen. I understand that the author of the book is here, and I wonder if -- and to a limited purpose, if he could shed light on the City's contention that there are no records and no way to 143 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 find them. Mr. Hornblum, would you be prepared to come forward, and in that limited area, tell us your evaluation of the testimony of the City's lawyers this morning. (Witness comes forward.)
Chairman Cohen, members of the committee, I'd like to preface my comment by saying --
Allen Hornblum, H-O-R-N-B-L-U-M, author of the book, Acres of Skin. I'd like to thank you for continuing to press this issue. Your predecessors, unfortunately, over many decades, did not have this issue on their radar screen, and I guess we can say better late than never, so I want to applaud your efforts. With regard to the comments you heard from Russell Green, from Dorothy Alston, from the last gentleman, there is no doubt that these medical experiments went on. In fact, they even proceeded when I said they did. According to my 144 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 research, they went on from 1951 to '74. After the publication of the book and all of the publicity it received, I received numerous contacts and calls from academics as well as individuals who resided in the City, who were up in age and asked me, why did I say the experiments started in '51? And I said that was what I thought the beginning was, when Dr. Kligman walked into Holmesburg Prison and said he saw acres of skin, meaning the inmates of Holmesburg. Well, one individual told me in fact, that when Willy Sutton went over the wall of Holmesburg Prison in 1945, he was wearing patches, because this individual put them on him during the second world war. So even during the early '40s, Holmesburg was used as raw material for medical research. The City, I believe, has not pursued this case because it's a nuisance, it's a problem, it's an embarrassment. When this deal was solidified and initiated in 1951 to allow Holmesburg to have its inmates used as guinea pigs, it was basically over a handshake, a handshake between Dr. Kligman and Dr. Frederick Baldi, who 145 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 was the superintendent of the prison system. They were both doctors, they were both interested in advancing science; they thought this could be useful to everybody concerned, including the inmates who would make, as the inmates say, "some chump change "out of it. Dr. Kligman, of course, was as much an entrepreneur as he was a physician, and he recognized the potential, the economic potential, of using Holmesburg as a research facility for all of the pharmaceutical companies in the post-war period who were looking to gain a bigger share of the market. So where initially in the early '50s, these tests were rudimentary university academic studies, they quickly turned the corner and became very big entrepreneurial endeavors with Rohm & Haas -- I'm not sure with Rohm & Haas -- but SmithKline, with Merk, with many of your largest pharmaceutical companies coming to Dr. Kligman, the University of Pennsylvania, and Holmesburg Prison -- it was that iron triangle of the physician, the university, and Holmesburg; whereas the citizens of Philadelphia, even the lawmakers of 146 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 Philadelphia, did not know it was taking place. People around the country in the business of testing humans knew about Holmesburg. J. S. Army and Maryland, their medical testing unit, came to Philadelphia. These records do exist. In fact, I brought some of the them to show the legal counsel of City Council today some of the things that I collected over my five-year investigation. And as Councilman Nutter said earlier, that you really had to go on a mission to solve this. And at the time I was the Chief of Staff of the Philadelphia Sheriff's Office, but I became so involved in this quest because I had witnessed these experiments when I first started working in the prisons in the early '70s, that when I talked to many of the mates -- and quite frankly, I didn't know hardly anybody of this group here. This group got together after the book Acres of Skin was published, and they finally realized how they were used and misused. 147 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 But I did track down a number of inmates, and they told me what they were used for.
And it was somewhat helpful, but they didn't really know exactly what ointment or what potion or what substance they were being injected with or swallowing. I then went to the doctors, the medical technicians who coordinated these experiments. Their response? Somewhat like you received: They wouldn't talk to me, they'd hang up to me, they'd only talk if they could have their attorney present. They pleaded with me not to investigate this case. They had been running from it for decades. I knew at this point that this was a serious story, and I had always expected from the early '70s that there would be a medical ethicist, a journalist, a historian who would look into this story, but they never did. So I started to do it in the mid '90s and gave up my job and nearly went into hock pursuing this story for five years. And I had to go through a very thorough search of government documents, using the Freedom of Information Act, 148 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. S. Army, everywhere I could go that had documents. The City, who has numerous people, numerous attorneys, who certainly make a hell of a lot more money than I do, could have done the same thing if they were interested. As Councilman Rizzo knows, there are procedures to keep track of people. S. Army and CIA experiments. But there has never been interest in this. Two reasons primarily, I would suggest. Certainly if you look in the audience here is that the test subjects were not sympathetic individuals. Just as your Tuskegee syphilis study subjects were African-American, uneducated, unsophisticated sharecroppers from Macon County, Alabama; the 149 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 people in this audience who have joined in this suit are overwhelming, if not exclusively, African-American and exclusively former individuals who were being held as prisoners. Why expend time and effort and money to try and rectify the injustice that took place. They never used the string section of the Philadelphia Orchestra for experiments, they didn't use the members of the Chamber of Commerce; they were using people across the board who were vulnerable subjects. It could have been prisoners, it could have been retarded individuals, it could have been people in mental hospitals. They were the ones who were used in the post-war period as raw material for experimentation. Holmesburg, unfortunately, in the City of Philadelphia, became quite possibly the greatest center of human research in post-war America. Although half the states in America had at least one prison that used prisoners as test subjects, Pennsylvania had nine or ten; and by far, Holmesburg for its or more years, was the K-Mart 24 of human experimentation. 25 There are documents that the City can 150 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 get showing the experiments that took place so that the City Solicitor, who was placed on the hot spot here, in having to deny what he knows what was definitely the case, that experiments took place, will show you the types of experiments, the length of them, who was paying for them. In some cases like this, they redacted the names so that you can't see, but there are cases where names are on these sheets and you can identify them. And I have been able to track down individuals who told me their story and then found their name in some document that the federal government had, because Dr. Kligman was doing experiments in conjunction with a federal agency or department. And there are individuals currently up at the prison system, such as Tom Costello, the Commission, such as Press Grooms, the Deputy Commissioner, such as many others who saw the experiments because they were there when I was there. Now, they may not know the specifics of them, and I wouldn't doubt that's the case, 'cause I spent five years trying to track it is down, but it was a very free and easy and loose system where 151 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES.
020171 the prison system of Philadelphia was like a plantation and loaned out people that it was holding as test subjects. And that went on day after day month after month, year after year for a quarter century. And it really is a dark mark on Philadelphia. A lot of it occurred during the progressive era of Philadelphia politics when Mayors Dilworth and Clark were in office, and it proceeded through the '60s and into the '70. And a lot of Democrats, Republicans, people in the clergy were all blind to the fact that this was going on, just as it happened in Tuskegee, where for 40 years, African-Americans were used as test subjects and never treated. Holmesburg is the flip side of Tuskegee. You had healthy people who were made ill. Some people profited greatly from that. And I applaud the efforts of Councilman Cohen and the other Councilmen who have come in here and paid attention to this and tried to redress this grievance that these individuals legitimately have. ) 152 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171
Thank you. Thank you for taking the time today in making this available to us. I want to be careful how I ask you this question. We heard about statute of limitations today, but as far as you know, did any of this medical testing cause the loss of life?
I have been told by numerous inmates, and even by some correctional officers, that people died. I could not track it down, I could not confirm it; and if I could not confirm something, I did not place it in the book. But the rumors exist widely throughout the individuals who were used as test subjects, and even some guards were under the belief that that happened. But, as I said, if I couldn't document it, I did not write it in the book.
Well, I could understand that, but I was just interested on your 153 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 thoughts on that. It's very interesting. Well, again, I thank you for this and I thank you for the opportunity.
All right. Councilman Rizzo has made what I think is a very good suggestion, and I would like to know how everybody feels about it, particularly Mr. Leodus Jones -- where is Mr. Jones?
Would you come forward to the table for a moment? (Witness comes forward.)
We would like you, as the chair or leader or whatever, we would want to call you, to maybe consider getting lists of names of everybody that you can who are here who were in prison. We'd like to get their involvement in naming other names of people they know who know. We'd like to show that there's an abundance of material available now, if the City only sought it. 154 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 Now, we don't want to prejudice any rights that anybody may have in lawsuits, but a lawsuit is not the province of City Council. Our investigation is our business. But if you would consider it and the folks here would consider it, it could prove very helpful. We would like to establish clearly that more than enough exists just listening to Mr. Hornblum. One can see it just looking at the faces of people here. We know you're dealing with the truth. As a matter of fact, I suspect that most of you have understated the problems that you face because human beings, when subjected to inhuman conditions, we try to often hide it from knowledge of your family or of other people. So we have no question at all about where truth lies. Our job is to make those who perpetrated these kind of activities, is to make them come forward, ultimately admit their guilt, and do what is necessary to make everybody as whole as people could be made. Now, Mr. Jones, would you raise that subject with your people? 155 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171
I don't want to ask anybody to sign a name and address unless it's agreeable to you and to the counsel for your lawsuit, that's not our responsibility. But we're aware that there's a lawsuit and you certainly have every right to pursue that lawsuit.
Yes. Well, one of the things that we would like to do is discuss it with our attorney and see what he advises us.
But I'm sure that we can get that information to you. As was stated before, we have over 300 individual members that were test subjects during that period. And since that time, since 1999, when we came together, we have lost over individual 19 members who have died from, you know, other 20 illnesses and whatnot and foul play and things of 21 that sort and natural causes. 22 But, you know, as we stretch this out, 23 as you can see, we're not kids. You know, when we were going through this, I was what they called the "Young Buck," you understand? Now they look at me 156 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 as a junior senior-citizen. We don't have too much time on this planet. We have a lot of illnesses and things of that sort. Some of 'em we can't even relate to, you know, whether or not they were a part of the test studies or whether or not it was a part of growing old, you understand? But we don't have too much time to be around, you understand? So, you know, we going to talk with Mr. Nocella, and we --
Talk to your attorneys, talk to Reverend Hill, talk to whomever you'd like to talk with, but we would be interested in establishing clearly that there's a real abundance of evidence available, that the City is negligent in not having pursued it all of these years. We're going to work very hard on the subpoena question. You may ask, What's the problem? Well, in -- there's only been one subpoena ever issued by the City Council of Philadelphia prior to our efforts today, and that was issued 50 years ago and went only to a City agency. So we have some new ground legally to 157 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 pursue. We intend to pursue it, we intend to do everything humanly possible to make the chemical companies that profited from this human exploitation, we intend to make them bear their appropriate responsibility. We intend to make the University of Pennsylvania put some meaning into some of the educational slogans about truth-telling, because we think the University of Pennsylvania ought, in the interest of education, come forward and say, In the interest of truth and humanity, we admit our guilt. And we think that to the extent that there were profits, that money ought to be recaptured from those who profited from this illegal human exploitation, and that money should be made available in every way to help correct the conditions that existed. Now, that, in general, is our approach. I cannot give you precise dates; I wish we could, but the law and legal procedures and legislative procedures don't work out that way. But we intend to be working very hard all during the summer in perfecting this. So I'm going to recess today's hearing. 158 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 Before I do, Councilman Rizzo, do you wish to make a comment?
Based on your conversation about your life expectancy, if you hang around with Councilman Cohen, you're going to be on this planet for a long time.
But my question is, during the testimony of the City lawyers, and they can't figure out who worked there as security guards, I'm going to ask the chairman of the security force, the wardens and the correctional officers, I guess we call them now, I'll bet you that you could sit at that seat and think of ten names of people that you know that worked at the jail that were correctional officers. And I'm suggesting to the Chair that if they would consider -- if the City can't figure out who the City workers were up there, that you might help them figure it out by this entire group just 159 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 recollecting some of the names. You know the names, probably you could sit here and talk about every one of them that worked in that jail. You could put a list together that you would also consider talking to your lawyers appropriately, providing those names to the Chair in the event that we have to start looking for some of these folks. That, I think, would be very helpful. But that is the request I make to the Chair. I wanted to explain it, but if the Chair would agree that that would be helpful, I would -- I think that that could be helpful down the road, since Councilman Cohen will not let this go.
Yes, sir. I could think of -- Owens at the time was the captain. I could think of Earl Hatchet (ph). I could also think of Press Grooms, Costello. You know, we can come up with some --
You could brainstorm for an hour with a group and come up with all of the names. Wasn't it at Holmesburg Fromhold and Curran and were --
Yeah, they're deceased, but my point being that just in my own mind, I think I knew a half a dozen people that worked up there that are still alive.
So you could be helpful there, but that's the Chair's call.
Yeah, well, we have a meeting coming up and we can begin to put them names together. I'm sure we wouldn't have a problem. Can I say two things before you adjourn, Councilman Cohen?
In answer to your question about whether or not there has been any deaths as a result of these experiments, we have heard rumors such as was stated, and we going to investigate into that a little more thoroughly, because I'm sure with all of the individuals that's a part of the survivors that have worked for the University of Pennsylvania during the time that they were in prison can give us some leads, if not some information, on that. So we going to pursue that. 161 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 And the other thing in reference to the University of Pennsylvania, the number that we got from Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell. Some of our members had called that number and the receiving end was sort of less -- was uncooperative or uninformed or whatever, you understand? So, you know, there are some things that -- I mean, we pursued this once before, and we did the same thing. And what I suggest is that some of y'all have someone to dial that number and see what kind of results that y'all get for the record.
All right. And I would like to thank on the behalf of the experimentation survivors each and every one of the individuals who have taken time to really pull this together and try to get some results for us on this resolution.
If, in the course of gathering all of the material, you feel it's necessary to bring a lot of folks together to get the information and you let my office know, we will 162 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 arrange for you to have the use, say, of an area like this courtroom, maybe this courtroom or some other area where you could all meet together.
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. You're saying that even the second number for Penn did not work?
Yes. This was what we were told. Is Dot in the house? Somebody call Dot, please. I'm going to straighten this out right now.
Well, like I said, if any of the Councilmen get somebody to call that number.
Don't put 'em on notice, okay? Just let it simmer and let's make these calls to see what happens.
And certainly, that is unconscionable. 163 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171
Yes, here's Dorothy here. Dorothy, didn't you say you tried that number, Penn whatever?
Will you let the Councilwoman know what happened? (Witness comes forward.)
Good afternoon. Your testimony was excellent and I'm very, very sorry you went through so much.
Yes. When I first heard about the number from Penn, I think it's 215-879-Penn. We had had a meeting, the steering committee, and I told Leodus that I was going to call the number and see what the results was. I called the number and they wanted to know what clinic I wanted and what type of insurance I had.
And you're saying they asked you about your insurance?
Absolutely. They wanted 164 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171 to know what type of insurance I had, and I said I was told that I could call this number, and I explained a little bit to the operator that answered the number what I wanted.
Oh, dear, that's unbelievable. All right, I will certainly report to Mr. Jones and report to the Chair of the committee, Councilman Cohen, and obviously, I will contact Penn as soon as this hearing's over. But thanks for letting me know. We don't know these things if you don't tell us. Thank you very much.
All right, then the hearing will stand in recess until the call of the Chair. We're going to work and come back with additional hearings until this matter gets fully resolved. We want the companies to be compelled to appear here and give testimony. And we want the wrongs that have been done to get righted. To that we're committed. Thank you all for coming today.
When you say "the call of the chair," what does that mean? Anytime between now and the next week or next month?
I don't know what that means until the committee meets and the staff meets and we work out our schedule.
As always, we will wait to hear from you. 166 6/11/02 LAW & GOV'T - RES. 020171
Okay, but you're free to make recommendations to us all, sir.
The hearing stands in recess until the call of the Chair. (Committee hearings end at 2 o'clock p.m.) - - - 167 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia's meeting of the Committee on Law and Government of Tuesday, June 11, 2002, are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. RE: Resolution No. 010271 _______________________________, Josephine Cardillo Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)