I -- I -- I -- I -- I -- I can not answer your question -- Your statements are statements I honestly do not know if they could belong to the Chamber of Commerce or not. I have no knowledge of that.
How about their non-payment of taxes? 50 Whole - 5/25/05
I -- I have no only knowledge of that myself but Commissioner Kammerdeiner might.
Miss Kammerdeiner, how soon could you get that information for us as to how much is being paid in taxes? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Point of information.
The Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco for a point of information.
Councilman Cohen. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Is your question, Councilman Cohen, taxes on the structure of the advertising or taxes in general? Because some of these companies employ people in the City of Philadelphia as well. They have their companies set up here. So, I'm not sure if your question 51 Whole - 5/25/05 goes to... When you say these advertising companies, is it the company or is it --
For the billboards. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: -- or is it for the billboards?
For the billboards. That's the only thing... COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you.
Because the billboard industry is an industry that's bad environmentally and bad financially. It's bad from every point of view, and we ought to be working to eliminate it.
In order to do a tax check, I would need to know the names of the firms. I -- I have some names, but I don't know if I have an exhaustive list. I will check with L & I to verify that we are looking at or looking for all of them, and 52 Whole - 5/25/05 give you a report, in terms of their general tax status. Depending upon how many of them there are, it may take a different amount of time. That's why I can't commit to you, but we'll do it as quickly as we can.
Thank you. I know the Commissioner is relatively new in his position. But doesn't L & I maintain lists of these billboard companies?
We have promised -- We have... I commented on that earlier, Councilman. We have a database that we've been creating over the last several years which we are going to share with Council.
But I have trouble talking about the last several years. 53 Whole - 5/25/05 When the original billboard control bill was passed by Council, I believe it was in the early 1980s, over years ago. And 5 we're covering the same subject, that these 6 companies post illegal signs, ignore the law, 7 pay practically nothing, fight everywhere in 8 courts. 9 They even fought in a case where the 10 Supreme Court of Pennsylvania ruled that a 11 sign near the Delaware River Bridge was 12 illegal. 13 We still had to go to court to get a 14 special order, asking that the City -- asking 15 for permission to get the City to remove the 16 sign. It wasn't enough to get a Supreme 17 Court decision that the sign was illegal. 18 These firms have plenty of money for 19 legal actions that frustrate the City. 20 They're parasites, and I think they ought to be eliminated. And as long as they're here, they ought to be taxed heavily, and I think the tax ought to be increased wherever there's an illegal sign posted. 54 Whole - 5/25/05 They know they've got -- My guess is that your figures are still very friendly to them when you say there's 1700 illegal signs compared to 2000 legal ones. I would gather that... I would think that the number of illegal signs vastly outweigh the number of legal signs, if you require to be legal, that they meet all the specifications, including the fees.
Well, as I said, Councilman -- explained earlier, we have done research for the last several years, and working with various agencies, SCRUB, and also Managing Director's Office. And we have determined that there is, in fact, roughly the numbers we've given out, 1700 signs that are illegal and... Roughly 2800 that are legally zoned in the City of Philadelphia. And that counts also, Councilman, the eight sheets that are in the communities.
And are taxes being paid on the legal signs? Do all legal signs -- Does legality include the payment of 55 Whole - 5/25/05 taxes or is that merely with respect to where the signs exist? Have they been granted legal permits?
But it has nothing to do with whether the taxes are paid.
We -- We -- We do not check if taxes are being paid, you know. We -- We -- We -- We -- We check if the license is paid but not the taxes on the... That would go to Revenue.
Well, Miss Kammerdeiner, do you check -- Could you tell us how many of the billboard signs are being paid for appropriately by taxes?
I would need to have from L & I the list of billboard companies so that we could check their tax status. And we'll do that after this session. We need to get that information from L & I, so that I can have someone check 56 Whole - 5/25/05 the tax status of the companies that operate or own the billboards.
Councilman, Dave Perry again. This new ordinance in front of you also requires that before we can renew a license for an individual sign, that there will be a check to see that all taxes are current for the company that's putting up that sign.
Permit the sign to exist for 20 more years without a payment?
What we would do then, Councilman, is have our -- have a case prepared and send it to the Law Department, and have them represent us in an equity action against the sign company. 57 Whole - 5/25/05
Has the City Solicitor's department been brought into this study as of now?
Yes, we've been working closely with them for the last several months.
The ordinance 9 specifically requires if you do not pay your license fee, as opposed to not having a zoning permit... If you do not pay your license fee, you're required to white out the sign face and not derive income from that sign. And if the sign company doesn't do it, the ordinance empowers L & I to either do it themselves or have -- hire out a contractor to basically remove the sign face.
But what has the City done before, in the face of the defiance by these sign companies?
When Commissioner Solvibile became Commissioner last year, he 58 Whole - 5/25/05 asked for a study on signs. And one of the things that we found was that the enforcement efforts have been increasing over the past several years. And when Commissioner Solvibile took office, there were 38 cases in court involving illegal signs. were in Common 9 Pleas Court, and the other 17 were in 10 Municipal Court. So, we have been upping our 11 enforcement efforts. 12 We had several major signs recently 13 removed, one that Commissioner was personally 14 responsible for having removed. There was 15 one of the largest wall wrap signs in the 16 City. It was off of Vine Street. And we 17 hired a contractor to remove the sign on our 18 behalf. 19
Well, I think 20 there's been a noticeable change in 21 enforcement since Commissioner Solvibile took office, and for the good as, well as you have a Deputy Commissioner, I believe, by the name of D'Orio.
Mr. D'Orio works for Dave Perry, and he reports to David. And he is going to lead up our sign unit. He's very, very active in signs. He's the person who we use to create the database. I also might add that we're pro-active to the point where at the Convention Center, we saw two wall wraps last week. We wrote a violation. The wall wraps were removed as of, I believe, yesterday. So, we're pro-active on these that... You know, a sign is a sign. And we're going to do what we need to do to have people have legal signs.
Well, we congratulate you in turning a department that seems to have been cooperating with the lawlessness displayed by billboard operators, into an agency that's begun to enforce the law. 60 Whole - 5/25/05 But, God, it's been years. And I guess we have to be thankful that finally there's a turnaround. Thank you, Madam President.
Incidentally, may 9 I ask you this question: You mentioned in 10 talking about working with organizations in 11 the community. Can you tell us something 12 about the groups that work in the community. 13 How do they cooperate with you? 14
I know Joe D'Orio, 15 works really closely with SCRUB. I know that 16 for a fact. And I've met Mary Tracy a few 17 times, and we've had conversations. 18 What I did was, we -- I have a staff 19 meeting every other week with my senior 20 staff. And we invited SCRUB to come and give us a presentation on -- on their feelings. So, we -- I've -- We try to outreach to both sides to determine what the problem is and enforce. You know, our -- our -- our job is 61 Whole - 5/25/05 to make sure it's legal. And if a sign is licensed, legal and zoned, then, you know, fine. We're -- We're -- We're -- We're not going to bother with that. We're -- We're really looking for the ones that are not legal to do the enforcement on.
How do you find cooperation from the community generally?
Excellent. We -- We -- We -- We very -- As you know, Councilman, Licenses and Inspections sort of intertwines with the community on a daily basis. Everything we do affects them. And we have, with all different various kinds of community groups, a great relationship.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo for a point of information.
Commissioner... Could I have a microphone, please? Now we're 62 Whole - 5/25/05 on. Commissioner, you just mentioned about two wall wraps. And I know you can't -- Well, maybe you can. Could you comment on the companies that installed these? Do you think they did the installations of the wall wraps in ignorance or do you think they knowingly violated the law?
I -- I honestly can not -- I -- I -- I -- I believe the Convention Center was not realizing what the law was, the last two that were removed. I really -- Once we told them that they -- they were not allowed, they complied almost instantly.
But I'm talking about the installer of the wrap. My point being is, I think you need to communicate with these various sign companies, because I imagine that was a significant investment that the Convention Center made to install. Well wraps aren't cheap. And I 63 Whole - 5/25/05 can't imagine them spending that money knowing that the signage was in jeopardy. Do the vendors -- the various contractors that do this work know that in our City that this work is illegal?
They -- They -- They -- They know they need to have a license and a permit to do what they're doing, yes. It's like any builder in the City of Philadelphia. They know they need a permit to put a building there.
So do you know the company that installed the wrap at the Convention Center? I would hope.
No, I don't. I honestly do not know the company that did it. But the Convention Center will, in fact, deal with that, and did deal with that rather effectively.
But my point being is, it seems to me that it doesn't create a lot of good will that a company would not know that wall wraps, or whatever you call them, aren't appropriate. 64 Whole - 5/25/05 They spend $10,000 to install one; then a week later have to rip it down, my point being is: Could we just -- Could we communicate with the various people that do this work via letter, your signature, and let them know that it's not appropriate to do this work in the City. And it's for their information. Because I can't imagine a legitimate contractor, especially working for the Convention Center, not saying to the people at the Convention Center, are you guys aware that this isn't legal?
I -- We -- We will -- If we have not done it in the past, we will do it, Councilman.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam President. 65 Whole - 5/25/05 Just one last thing on the wall wrap. What was it advertising?
Big bottle of Makers Bourbon, I believe. It's actually the first time I ever heard of the product.
Was it related at all to anything that was going on at the Center?
Oh. I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. There was several that we've taken off. At the Center it was advertising the show that was there.
So the computer people probably bought the sign and had it installed?
It's the same sign that goes up every year, yes. That's what I was told after we got involved with it, yes.
And what effect 66 Whole - 5/25/05 do you think that might force, the removal of that sign for that computer show, might have on their decision whether or not they want to come back here any more?
But don't you think in some circumstances, where it relates to people who are coming to the City to do business in our Convention Center, that we give a little leeway, especially if it's going to be up there on a temporary basis?
Well, what -- what I did was, working -- I -- I believe the gentleman's name... Tom Muldoon at the Convention Center. Him and I had a conversation. And what we're going to do is, he's going to work on having -- applying for a permit so once or twice a year that would be allowed. And that's the way to do it, to work with them so that --
How long is the sign scheduled to be up? 67 Whole - 5/25/05
And the show's like -- lasts what; ten days, two weeks?
So we're using our personnel to violate -- to cite the state owned Convention Center Authority that's allowing one of our customers to advertise for a short period of time. That's something that we should be expending our resources on?
Well, I -- it's -- it's -- it's there. And if you're enforcing signs; and, you know, if we're -- if we're an enforcement agency and we see a violation, you -- you -- you have to note the violation, no matter who or why it owns it; I mean, what entity.
Obviously, if there's 1400, 1700 illegal signs in the City, 68 Whole - 5/25/05 there's other work to do besides the Convention Center.
It's not that we were picking on them. It's just that it was there, and we saw it, and we made note, and we worked with the Convention Center manager to ensure that -- you know, that they -- that they legalize what they wanted. They only do it once a year. And I agree with you. And it's --
So why go through the whole -- why go through the whole process of having to force the sign down, especially if the time was going to run out? It wasn't up there 12 months a year. It was going to be up until the show was over.
Something that is not... You know, we can't allow it to be there for a day or a week, if it's not legal.
I can give you a 69 Whole - 5/25/05 list of things that have been allowed to exist for more than a day or week; years. All I'm saying is that I understand the vigilance of wanting to take care of illegal signs. But when it comes to our customer base at our Convention Center, our hotels and our tourism, I think we maybe ought to give them a little leeway because it's not advertising, you know, cigarettes or whiskey or whatever else is normally advertised. This is advertising a customer of ours who would bring people into Philadelphia, staying in hotels and spending money, and where our enforcement people are, you know, taking care of them first.
I agree, Councilman. That's why that Tom Muldoon -- We talked. And he will not have this problem again because it's going to go through the process of making it legal.
Well, let me just go in another direction for a second. When was the sign unit thought up, the five 70 Whole - 5/25/05 person sign unit?
When I became acting Commissioner, I talked -- met with Mr. Perry. And I came up with the idea that we should have a unit dedicated to that because it just seemed like the right thing to do. We've been working on it since it developed.
Was that encompassed in the current budget that we're deciding on now? Was that submitted? Was that part of the budget that we're considering now?
No. We were going to tie it to the ordinance. When we finally decided we were going to go forward with it between the department and the Managing Director's Office --
So there was not part of L & I's budget complement or employee 71 Whole - 5/25/05 complement as a part of the 2006 budget we're now considering?
Are these existing people or are they going to be new people?
Well, Joe D'Orio has been working on -- on -- on -- on the issue. And there's personnel from a building inspector. As you know, our building inspectors now have to be certified by state standards. And some of our employees are having a hard time passing the test. So, we're going to put one of our building -- competent, capable building inspector assigned to it, a business compliance inspector which will come from the -- Dom McVerdie's area at 990, and a supervisor over them, too, a field 72 Whole - 5/25/05 supervisor, who will actually be in the field working with Mr. D'Orio in clerical support.
So whatever they were doing before, they're not going to be doing, other than just signs.
Well, Joe D'Orio, the building inspector... Just that the building inspectors that are left will take over that building inspector's responsibility and have more work to do.
So we're moving people from areas that are investigating dangerous buildings, illegal businesses, other types of nuisance problems in the 73 Whole - 5/25/05 community, and dedicating them to nothing but billboards.
-- allotment of people, considering the burden that this department has in enforcing the current laws that we give you, that you have the ability to have less people doing the other stuff?
I think in the long run it will save us time. That's why I wanted to create it, because we still have to deal with the complaints of billboards and signs. And now, so instead of having various people, various units having to do it, it will be housed in one place, which will save the unit -- it will save business compliance that much... It will save the work that the inspector from business compliance was doing will still be done 74 Whole - 5/25/05 except it will be done in that unit.
Councilman, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I just wanted the record to be clarified. I understood you to say that L & I would not be hiring new employees?
We would not be hiring new employees. We will be taking on employees that exist.
Well, can you explain to me why, in the budget that we're presently considering, we have billboard enforcement $842,000? What is that for?
That -- That -- That will be the cost of the employees that will work for us doing billboard --
Yeah. Well, the 75 Whole - 5/25/05 cost that they were... In another area it will be -- it will be put to there. That's the -- standardly the way we've always created that in the past.
They're already on the payroll, aren't they? Well, I want to get back to the issue of complaints. Do we get more complaints about billboards than we do about crack houses or more complaints about billboards than we have about nuisance bars and businesses? Or any... I mean, billboards are our biggest complaint that we get in L & I?
No. I -- I -- I -- I -- For crack houses and -- and -- and -- and that type of... We have over -- We have roughly 50 inspectors that can handle --
I understand that, but do we get more complaints about billboards than we get about the other quality of life stuff?
Well, why are we 76 Whole - 5/25/05 setting up a separate unit?
Because it's -- it's such a difficult -- It's such a difficult product to get your hands around. And to do the research, if they're legal or not legal, it -- it -- it -- it -- And -- And -- And -- And -- And it's just a necessary thing. I think it's necessary for us to try to enforce all the codes that we have --
I don't disagree with that. And you can hate billboards, not care about billboards, or like billboards. The billboard itself, even though it may esthetically offend you, is not creating a danger to life, health and safety of the citizens of the City. You may hate them. You may think they're the worst things you've ever seen. But it's not rising to a level of a dangerous house that's next door to somebody that might fall down or that has drug addicts in it using it or they're selling drugs from there. I mean, I can't believe that we have 77 Whole - 5/25/05 that much emphasis on billboard enforcement, that we have to take people from other units that are doing critical work in the community, to deal with the billboards? I mean, certainly at some point we could come to the decision to take the illegal ones down, to have the court enforce, whatever. But I mean, the billboard standing there is not a threat to my life. It may be a threat to my esthetic sensibilities. That's fine. We can disagree. But to take people from units that are dealing with critical on the ground stuff that affects neighbors every day, and to put them in the special unit just to do this, I don't understand the whole rationale.
There's enough work and enough complaints to keep the four people busy. They're -- They're -- And it takes away from -- Councilman --
But Bob, isn't there enough work and enough complaints to keep them busy doing other stuff? I mean, we 78 Whole - 5/25/05 have everything else tied up?
Before we go on with this, if you don't mind, if someone is here from Finance, I would like them to approach the witness table so that we can clarify this issue once and for all. Are we using employees that are presently with L & I? Who's here from... Miss Reed, are you coming up? Who's coming up?
Do you mind approaching the witness stable? COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: While she's coming to the witness table, I have a point of information, if I can. Issue with the wall wrap at the Convention Center. Was that complaint driven or was that something that your inspectors --
It was the administrator, Joe D'Orio, going to lunch at the... and saw it. It wasn't complaint driven. It was he went to lunch and saw it. 79 Whole - 5/25/05 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I needed to know that. I was just curious if it was complaint driven.
I'm not -- Before -- I want to stay in line here. I don't want to get out of line because I have --
Once you get out of line in here, it's tough to get back in.
I know. I know. Miss Reed, do you mind approaching the witness table, please? Miss Reed, I am sure you heard the testimony regarding who would be actually enforcing this. And it was stated we would not be having new employees. Is that true or false? 80 Whole - 5/25/05
As I understand it, a new unit is being created, but the employees are being transferred from other units.
Well, why has the Department of L & I increased their budget? And it does indicate it's for the billboards.
Maybe if you see it, you would understand what we're talking about.
It states that they were increasing the appropriations in L & I by this amount.
For the billboard enforcement, expenditures to be 81 Whole - 5/25/05 completely offset by revenue generating.
Exactly. I think the record has to be clear. Councilman Kenney.
Miss Reed, I think Mr. McPherson just took up the amendments that were introduced by the administration.
Yes. Mr. McPherson is giving me the transmittal or the letter from the Mayor of May 24th.
So we will, in fact, be hiring new employees to deal with this one issue; would we not?
We are showing in the amendments to the operating budget ordinance...
567 in personal services, 250,000 for an engineering contracting Class 200 and 25,000 for materials, supplies and equipment for the enforcement function. 82 Whole - 5/25/05
Well, these are employees who are being transferred into Class 100. I actually do not know where they are coming from. I'm not part of that discussion.
I mean, maybe the Commissioner knows whether they're hiring people or not.
Commissioner, are you able to answer this 83 Whole - 5/25/05 question?
I -- I -- The last question I did not hear, Councilwoman. We -- We -- When we planned this unit, we're talking existing people. We -- I -- We -- We -- We never gave a thought that we would hire new people to fill this function for us.
So are you suggesting, then, that we decrease L & I's budget that's being proposed to us, since you're not going to be hiring new people?
Not at all, but we -- we -- we -- That would be the cost --
That -- That -- That would be the cost for us to place them people in that unit to fulfill that function. That's...
They're already on your payroll. 84 Whole - 5/25/05
I -- I never gave that a conscious thought, that we would be hiring four additional people.
We asked for the increase based upon what it would cost us to bring them four people into that department, what it would cost us to enforce that part of the code. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Getting a step...
Are they being elevated to another position? Therefore, they're being given more compensation?
They're -- They'll -- They'll -- They'll come in at the same level of pay they're at now.
And -- And -- And Dave is just telling me, and -- and -- and a lot of that -- A good portion of that extra money would be for the demolition if we -- if we need to demolish the building to hire the engineering service. What was that, Dave, 500?
No. We're talking about personal services, Class 100.
Council president, we are in fact hiring new employees to backfill the employees who will be in the new enforcement unit.